Relevant Revenant Patch Notes — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Relevant Revenant Patch Notes

Per the patch notes:

Revenant

When we reworked sword skill 5 from Grasping Shadow to Deathstrike, we also carried over the slow and chill conditions it inflicted. However, since Deathstrike is a damage skill rather than a control skill like Grasping Shadow, we are removing this component because it muddies the new purpose of the skill. Similarly, we are reworking both Embrace the Darkness and Unyielding Anguish in the Mallyx stance that both act as pulsing areas of effects, with the intent of better differentiating when they should be used. Embrace the Darkness is being focused on inflicting torment. Unyielding Anguish is being revamped, becoming a setup skill that gathers up enemies, and it has been renamed Call to Anguish. Beyond these changes, we are also scaling up skills and traits that looked like they were just marginally out of play and reducing some might generation in PvP.

-Impossible Odds: Instead of pulsing superspeed, this skill now increases your movement speed by 50%. Reduced damage of the secondary strike by 19% in PvP only.
-Hardening Persistence: Increased the damage reduction per pip of energy from 1% to 1.5%.
-Focused Siphoning: Increased power scaling by 400% in PvE only. Increased healing scaling by 400% in PvE only.
-Spear of Anguish: This skill now scales torment duration dynamically based on distance rather than using distance thresholds.
-Notoriety: Reduced might duration from 10 seconds to 5 seconds, and reduced the number of stacks applied by 1 in PvP only.
-Icerazor's Ire: Increased damage by 30%.
-Elemental Blast: Reduced recharge in PvE from 12 seconds to 10 seconds. Fixed an incorrect radius tooltip.
-Shining Aspects: Removed the internal cooldown from this trait.
-Rapid Flow: Increased base healing by 50%.
-Shackling Wave: Reduced the damage of secondary strikes by 20% in PvP and WvW.
-Deathstrike: This skill no longer chills or slows.
-Burst of Strength: Reduced the damage of this skill in WvW to match the PvP version. Increased the bonus damage boon from 15% to 25% in PvE only.
-Unyielding Anguish: This skill has been reworked and renamed Call to Anguish. It is now a leap finisher skill that pulls foes to the center of your landing point and chills them. This skill has an energy cost of 35 and a 5-second recharge.
-Embrace the Darkness: This skill is now a mobile dark field. Increased recharge to 10 seconds. This skill no longer grants a stat increase and is no longer unblockable and unblindable. The amount of torment applied per pulse is unchanged, but using a skill that costs energy now increases the stacks of torment applied on the next pulse by 2. This skill now deals a small amount of damage each pulse.

Comments

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Focused Siphoning still seems to have rather low values still with all berserker?
    But love the improvements to EB and Burst.

  • Burtnik.5218Burtnik.5218 Member ✭✭✭

    So how bad Mallyx changes are? Whats the damage on EtD, range on Anguish etc?

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ventusthunder.5067 said:
    Impossible Odds nerf is a fat yikes with the movement speed. They're trying to shoehorn players into taking Rising Momentum if we want to be even close to the same speed we were.

    As for everything else regarding the normal herald build, I think it's fine.

    I asume that was in regard to movement within pvp/wvw?

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 16, 2019

    I don't like how the rework of Unyielding Anguish made the Abyssal Chill trait worse, since condi revs don't have a lot of access to chilled.
    Call to Anguish is too expensive for the trait to be worth taking and the only other skill with 1 application of chilled is axe 4.
    Glint's elemental blast, sword 2 and hammer 3 are the other skills that chill, but you won't use them for condi.

  • Lonewolf Kai.3682Lonewolf Kai.3682 Member ✭✭✭

    Malyx was already struggling with energy imo, along with Jalis best no the first offender. This patch just placed him alongside him. 🙁

  • LucianTheAngelic.7054LucianTheAngelic.7054 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    I think I'm going to retire condi renegade. The mallyx changes are terrible, and I was struggling to break 26k DPS (no food) with it.

    (1): There is no more leeway with how you play mallyx. The thing with saving up for UA and spamming it was that it was flexible. If you needed the energy for something else, you had it available. You could wait and save up for an additional UA, or you could switch on EtD for a damage boost + a few additional ticks. Now, you don't have that option anymore. Not only do you do less damage now, but you're also energy starved.

    (2): You no longer get a choice with which legend you want to open with. Before, you could go with either Kalla or Mallyx, because both legends had high DPS options that you could just blow through to get to the other. Then charged mists boosts your legend swap, and you rain citadel bombardment. Kalla provided CC and a bleeding buff, while Mallyx provided UA. Now, you have to start in kalla, because that option is no longer available.

    (3): The trait abyssal chill is no completely dead. There is no way to take advantage of it now.

    (4): Mallyx no longer stacks group might. The dark field overrides the fire field, so all of your blast finishers just inflict blind now.

    (5): Mallyx is far less mobile now. The cooldowns hurt, but now all the mobility options cut your offensive power down drastically.

    Playing condi renegade feels terrible now. Instead of being capable of improvising, I am now struggling to get basic things to work, and I do a lot less damage than I used to do before.

    I got 31k on my 2nd pull after the patch using a slightly modified version of the previous SC rotation. I'm reading also 35-36k on SC's discord with people testing it right now without final rotations, so the damage is certainly still there and the class definitely isn't dead

    I agree with you on the loss of Abyssal Chill being meaningful and on the flexibility of Mallyx as a whole though. And the cooldowns don't feel good on CtA for how weak CtA is overall and the cooldown on EtD is way too long (and also goes on full cooldown if you're interrupted while casting it lmao).

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 16, 2019

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    I think I'm going to retire condi renegade. The mallyx changes are terrible, and I was struggling to break 26k DPS (no food) with it.

    (1): There is no more leeway with how you play mallyx. The thing with saving up for UA and spamming it was that it was flexible. If you needed the energy for something else, you had it available. You could wait and save up for an additional UA, or you could switch on EtD for a damage boost + a few additional ticks. Now, you don't have that option anymore. Not only do you do less damage now, but you're also energy starved.

    (2): You no longer get a choice with which legend you want to open with. Before, you could go with either Kalla or Mallyx, because both legends had high DPS options that you could just blow through to get to the other. Then charged mists boosts your legend swap, and you rain citadel bombardment. Kalla provided CC and a bleeding buff, while Mallyx provided UA. Now, you have to start in kalla, because that option is no longer available.

    (3): The trait abyssal chill is no completely dead. There is no way to take advantage of it now.

    (4): Mallyx no longer stacks group might. The dark field overrides the fire field, so all of your blast finishers just inflict blind now.

    (5): Mallyx is far less mobile now. The cooldowns hurt, but now all the mobility options cut your offensive power down drastically.

    Playing condi renegade feels terrible now. Instead of being capable of improvising, I am now struggling to get basic things to work, and I do a lot less damage than I used to do before.

    I got 31k on my 2nd pull after the patch using a slightly modified version of the previous SC rotation. I'm reading also 35-36k on SC's discord with people testing it right now without final rotations, so the damage is certainly still there and the class definitely isn't dead

    I agree with you on the loss of Abyssal Chill being meaningful and on the flexibility of Mallyx as a whole though. And the cooldowns don't feel good on CtA for how weak CtA is overall and the cooldown on EtD is way too long (and also goes on full cooldown if you're interrupted while casting it lmao).

    Were you talking of a Condi or Power build for the 35-36k?

  • LucianTheAngelic.7054LucianTheAngelic.7054 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LucianDK.8615 said:

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    I think I'm going to retire condi renegade. The mallyx changes are terrible, and I was struggling to break 26k DPS (no food) with it.

    (1): There is no more leeway with how you play mallyx. The thing with saving up for UA and spamming it was that it was flexible. If you needed the energy for something else, you had it available. You could wait and save up for an additional UA, or you could switch on EtD for a damage boost + a few additional ticks. Now, you don't have that option anymore. Not only do you do less damage now, but you're also energy starved.

    (2): You no longer get a choice with which legend you want to open with. Before, you could go with either Kalla or Mallyx, because both legends had high DPS options that you could just blow through to get to the other. Then charged mists boosts your legend swap, and you rain citadel bombardment. Kalla provided CC and a bleeding buff, while Mallyx provided UA. Now, you have to start in kalla, because that option is no longer available.

    (3): The trait abyssal chill is no completely dead. There is no way to take advantage of it now.

    (4): Mallyx no longer stacks group might. The dark field overrides the fire field, so all of your blast finishers just inflict blind now.

    (5): Mallyx is far less mobile now. The cooldowns hurt, but now all the mobility options cut your offensive power down drastically.

    Playing condi renegade feels terrible now. Instead of being capable of improvising, I am now struggling to get basic things to work, and I do a lot less damage than I used to do before.

    I got 31k on my 2nd pull after the patch using a slightly modified version of the previous SC rotation. I'm reading also 35-36k on SC's discord with people testing it right now without final rotations, so the damage is certainly still there and the class definitely isn't dead

    I agree with you on the loss of Abyssal Chill being meaningful and on the flexibility of Mallyx as a whole though. And the cooldowns don't feel good on CtA for how weak CtA is overall and the cooldown on EtD is way too long (and also goes on full cooldown if you're interrupted while casting it lmao).

    Were you talking of a Condi or Power build for the 35-36k?

    Condi Ren. And I haven't personally hit the 35-36k, but I did just get it up to 33k and I don't have full infusions, so am missing a little bit of damage. The changes are certainly buffs for the raw DPS of Condi Ren in general

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    @LucianDK.8615 said:

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    I think I'm going to retire condi renegade. The mallyx changes are terrible, and I was struggling to break 26k DPS (no food) with it.

    (1): There is no more leeway with how you play mallyx. The thing with saving up for UA and spamming it was that it was flexible. If you needed the energy for something else, you had it available. You could wait and save up for an additional UA, or you could switch on EtD for a damage boost + a few additional ticks. Now, you don't have that option anymore. Not only do you do less damage now, but you're also energy starved.

    (2): You no longer get a choice with which legend you want to open with. Before, you could go with either Kalla or Mallyx, because both legends had high DPS options that you could just blow through to get to the other. Then charged mists boosts your legend swap, and you rain citadel bombardment. Kalla provided CC and a bleeding buff, while Mallyx provided UA. Now, you have to start in kalla, because that option is no longer available.

    (3): The trait abyssal chill is no completely dead. There is no way to take advantage of it now.

    (4): Mallyx no longer stacks group might. The dark field overrides the fire field, so all of your blast finishers just inflict blind now.

    (5): Mallyx is far less mobile now. The cooldowns hurt, but now all the mobility options cut your offensive power down drastically.

    Playing condi renegade feels terrible now. Instead of being capable of improvising, I am now struggling to get basic things to work, and I do a lot less damage than I used to do before.

    I got 31k on my 2nd pull after the patch using a slightly modified version of the previous SC rotation. I'm reading also 35-36k on SC's discord with people testing it right now without final rotations, so the damage is certainly still there and the class definitely isn't dead

    I agree with you on the loss of Abyssal Chill being meaningful and on the flexibility of Mallyx as a whole though. And the cooldowns don't feel good on CtA for how weak CtA is overall and the cooldown on EtD is way too long (and also goes on full cooldown if you're interrupted while casting it lmao).

    Were you talking of a Condi or Power build for the 35-36k?

    Condi Ren. And I haven't personally hit the 35-36k, but I did just get it up to 33k and I don't have full infusions, so am missing a little bit of damage. The changes are certainly buffs for the raw DPS of Condi Ren in general

    ah, I was afraid of it being condi rev. I guess the rotation is still a painful twister to pull of?

  • LucianTheAngelic.7054LucianTheAngelic.7054 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 16, 2019

    @LucianDK.8615 said:

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    @LucianDK.8615 said:

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    I think I'm going to retire condi renegade. The mallyx changes are terrible, and I was struggling to break 26k DPS (no food) with it.

    (1): There is no more leeway with how you play mallyx. The thing with saving up for UA and spamming it was that it was flexible. If you needed the energy for something else, you had it available. You could wait and save up for an additional UA, or you could switch on EtD for a damage boost + a few additional ticks. Now, you don't have that option anymore. Not only do you do less damage now, but you're also energy starved.

    (2): You no longer get a choice with which legend you want to open with. Before, you could go with either Kalla or Mallyx, because both legends had high DPS options that you could just blow through to get to the other. Then charged mists boosts your legend swap, and you rain citadel bombardment. Kalla provided CC and a bleeding buff, while Mallyx provided UA. Now, you have to start in kalla, because that option is no longer available.

    (3): The trait abyssal chill is no completely dead. There is no way to take advantage of it now.

    (4): Mallyx no longer stacks group might. The dark field overrides the fire field, so all of your blast finishers just inflict blind now.

    (5): Mallyx is far less mobile now. The cooldowns hurt, but now all the mobility options cut your offensive power down drastically.

    Playing condi renegade feels terrible now. Instead of being capable of improvising, I am now struggling to get basic things to work, and I do a lot less damage than I used to do before.

    I got 31k on my 2nd pull after the patch using a slightly modified version of the previous SC rotation. I'm reading also 35-36k on SC's discord with people testing it right now without final rotations, so the damage is certainly still there and the class definitely isn't dead

    I agree with you on the loss of Abyssal Chill being meaningful and on the flexibility of Mallyx as a whole though. And the cooldowns don't feel good on CtA for how weak CtA is overall and the cooldown on EtD is way too long (and also goes on full cooldown if you're interrupted while casting it lmao).

    Were you talking of a Condi or Power build for the 35-36k?

    Condi Ren. And I haven't personally hit the 35-36k, but I did just get it up to 33k and I don't have full infusions, so am missing a little bit of damage. The changes are certainly buffs for the raw DPS of Condi Ren in general

    ah, I was afraid of it being condi rev. I guess the rotation is still a painful twister to pull of?

    it's about the same, but potentially slightly more complicated, since it looks like you want to add 1 autoattack in between abilities in shortbow skills while in mallyx. Also the guy who posted a video was using 3/2/1 in corruption, not 2/2/2

    For Reference:

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yeah, gonna stick with less fingertwisting specs.

  • Times like this I really lament that these DPS tests are done on huge golems while standing inside of their model. AKA something I'll almost never be able to do.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2019

    Removing unproductive comment. Will report impressions later.

    Healing orbs are a mistake. Please delete them ANet.

  • LucianTheAngelic.7054LucianTheAngelic.7054 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @phokus.8934 said:
    Call to Anguish needs a slight drop in energy from 35 to 30. With a 5 second cooldown, there's no reason to have such a high energy consumption.

    kitten needs more than just 5 energy reduction. It’s not useful for kiting anymore since it doesn’t leave a chill field, not that useful against most pvp targets with how much stability/evade/etc. exists, not a great mobility skill, not a great engage skill since it leaves you energy starved with no pressure, and most importantly its probably the worst pull in the game the leap takes WAY too long with a 240 radius to be useful for grouping up multiple human targets.

    It needs like 5 energy reduction PLUS an evade or stability PLUS a 360 radius pull if it’s ever going to be useful with that godawful 5 second cooldown. Was playing condi all night in ranked and WvW and it was my least used skill in the kit now. The energy I would have used for UA in the past I spent on BE and EtD

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2019

    So some initial thoughts on UA and EtD. I spent a few hours solo roaming (and some dueling) tonight in WvW, so this is all gathered from that perspective.

    Unyielding Anguish

    When the CC lands on this, it feels nice. I was able to ping-pong Necros pretty badly, but it felt difficult to pull off against most other classes that have better mobility and can avoid it or kite me more easily. I had a much harder time kiting enemies as I could not double- to triple-cast the skill, which previously helped tremendously in repositioning and area denial. I do miss that the most and I find it to be a hard adjustment. It felt significantly worse trying to disengage. Taking away mobility potential from Mallyx further isolates Shiro into being the only "mobility" legend, which is not a healthy step for a class that is restricted to two legend choices. I do think this skill needs polishing still as it comes at an extremely steep energy cost.
    I think part of what made this change feel more tolerable is that I run core and Charged Mists, so I have access to a lot more energy than a lot of builds. It makes playing Mallyx much more fluid and I felt it was able to adjust more easily to the patch. I honestly don't think I would have used CtA much if I wasn't running either of those.
    The leap finisher was definitely a nice implementation, but not game-changing. I found it most fun to use after putting down a Jalis road so I could eat a stab stack via Dazing Strike before pulling. On a related note, I would say that the change to this skill also severely decreased the value of Abyssal Chill. Unless I run mainhand sword, I see little reason to use it and consider Demonic Resistance to be a stronger master tier trait now (assuming running Mallyx).

    I feel like there is a lot they could do with this skill to bring it up to snuff. I would say that first, the energy cost could be reduced to 30. Additionally:
    -Add 2 seconds of slow. (This combine with the chill would make it a more debilitating CC)
    -Perhaps have it leave behind a chill/slow AoE pulsing 1s of each condition for 2 seconds.
    Then, either:
    -If no enemies are within the impact radius, reset the cooldown of this skill. Your next cast costs 50%(?) less energy. (This would be so it could be used as a repositioning tool)
    Or:
    -Increase the range to 900 (As mentioned, having a 5s cooldown on it is painful and very restrictive to the legend's mobility)

    Embrace the Darkness

    Okay, this skill I was surprised about. I actually really love the way it functions and appreciate its super-focus on torment now. It felt really great to be able to use staff skills and not have my damage flatten out as much as it normally would. I could see how the dark field could get annoying, but when solo roaming, I love it because the reliable blinds from blasting it can be pretty clutch. Honestly the only complaint I have about it is the cooldown, which is admittedly a big complaint. It makes the skill and overall fluidity of the legend feel much more clunky as you basically get one chance at using EtD unless you are camping the legend for a while. I'd like to see its cooldown decreased to 3 or 5 seconds.

    Healing orbs are a mistake. Please delete them ANet.

  • Burtnik.5218Burtnik.5218 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2019

    Anguish feels odd after the change and possibly as one of the worst utility skills in game. It also hurts Mallyx mobility hard af. And its so easy to interrupt as it ever was but now you just lose more energy and get put on cd. What made them think that it even need cost increase and cd is beyond me. The way it works now that joke should have no cd and 20 energy cost top.

    EtD slapped cd ruined the legend for me so basically (cant manage energy anymore, its either all or nothing till next legend swap), im rerolling bc Mallyx was the last thing i enjoyed about revenant. Not sure if i should return to warrior or get some fun with reaper/dh.

  • Ertrak.9506Ertrak.9506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2019

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    Times like this I really lament that these DPS tests are done on huge golems while standing inside of their model. AKA something I'll almost never be able to do.

    It's literally done exclusively to cut down on RNG since people who do this, sometimes do so for long periods of time. The only skill affected by the huge hitbox is Citadel bombardment and in theory all missiles can strike a small target. Therefore small hitbox test is almost pointless as you'll get wildly varying results everytime with no indication of whether or not youre doing better.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    (1): There is no more leeway with how you play mallyx. The thing with saving up for UA and spamming it was that it was flexible. If you needed the energy for something else, you had it available. You could wait and save up for an additional UA, or you could switch on EtD for a damage boost + a few additional ticks. Now, you don't have that option anymore. Not only do you do less damage now, but you're also energy starved.

    (2): You no longer get a choice with which legend you want to open with. Before, you could go with either Kalla or Mallyx, because both legends had high DPS options that you could just blow through to get to the other. Then charged mists boosts your legend swap, and you rain citadel bombardment. Kalla provided CC and a bleeding buff, while Mallyx provided UA. Now, you have to start in kalla, because that option is no longer available.

    (3): The trait abyssal chill is no completely dead. There is no way to take advantage of it now.

    (4): Mallyx no longer stacks group might. The dark field overrides the fire field, so all of your blast finishers just inflict blind now.

    (5): Mallyx is far less mobile now. The cooldowns hurt, but now all the mobility options cut your offensive power down drastically.

    Playing condi renegade feels terrible now. Instead of being capable of improvising, I am now struggling to get basic things to work, and I do a lot less damage than I used to do before.

    I disagree on most of these points.

    1) On most fights you bring a condi renegade to anyways, confusion is effective at allowing you to utilize Banish Enchantment as your new "dump" skill to work around, should you need it.

    2) This isn't true. People are experimenting with both kalla and Mallyx openers, with Mallyx being easier to pull off with Etd>sb4>BE>sb3>legend swap>sb2>weapon swap. The Kalla opener isn't optimized yet but results are positive so far with axe5>CB>mace3>legend>mace2>weapon

    3)The only thing I agree on. An argument can be made for PvP Condi Herald (chill from Facet of the Elements procs a fair amount of torment) but giving up lesser Banish Enchantment is kinda...eh.

    4) False, once again. Not only was raid-wide might generation never reliant on renegade fields (in anything you generated more might from using F2 to cover rotation errors), nor truly assisted it, Fire Fields present before EtD take precedence over EtD's Dark Field, meaning no finishers will use the dark field until all previous combo fields are gone.

    5) This is true but ultimately irrelevant in the context of organized PvE, which everything else in this post is referring to. Anywhere you need mobility in any context of PvE you can run Shiro/Mallyx, instead of Kalla/Mallyx (with an easier rotation!) for like 1-2k benchmark DPS loss.

    Improvements need to still be made to Mallyx, but I don't want these changes reverted. I would still like to see the CD's on CtA shaved and EtD halved, but i absolutely love the way the new EtD works and its Dark Field, and having the pull on CtA is nice.

    Most egregiously, adding the pulsing chill back to CtA is must. Adding slow additionally would justify the cost and CD. I dont particularly see the point of the EtD cooldown. Like obviously they want us to commit to EtD until were forced to swap out of Mallyx but...why? What's the point? That 10s CD is very clearly not because of the Skill's power level. It's good but not that good.

  • @Ertrak.9506 said:
    It's literally done exclusively to cut down on RNG since people who do this, sometimes do so for long periods of time. The only skill affected by the huge hitbox is Citadel bombardment and in theory all missiles can strike a small target. Therefore small hitbox test is almost pointless as you'll get wildly varying results everytime with no indication of whether or not youre doing better.

    Except for Sevenshot, Bloodbane Path, and Echoing Eruption. Those are also affected by size.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    1) On most fights you bring a condi renegade to anyways, confusion is effective at allowing you to utilize Banish Enchantment as your new "dump" skill to work around, should you need it.

    Why do you say things when you haven't done the math? Serious question. Banish Enchantment is 3 confusion stacks for 6 seconds for 20 energy. Unyielding Anguish was 8 stacks of torment for 6 seconds (20% stronger and 20% longer with Yearning Empowerment) in a large AoE for 30 energy. They aren't even close to comparable. This is even worse in PVP/WvW where Banish is 5 stacks of confusion for 2 seconds.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    2) This isn't true. People are experimenting with both kalla and Mallyx openers, with Mallyx being easier to pull off with Etd>sb4>BE>sb3>legend swap>sb2>weapon swap. The Kalla opener isn't optimized yet but results are positive so far with axe5>CB>mace3>legend>mace2>weapon

    You still don't have high burst options in either legend. You're just blowing every weapon skill you have as fast as you can in a way-too-complex rotation. Compare this to the previous option, which was just UA.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    4) False, once again. Not only was raid-wide might generation never reliant on renegade fields (in anything you generated more might from using F2 to cover rotation errors), nor truly assisted it, Fire Fields present before EtD take precedence over EtD's Dark Field, meaning no finishers will use the dark field until all previous combo fields are gone.

    And everywhere else? And when EtD activates before the fire field? And when it does last longer? Did I specifically just say "raids?" Don't be difficult.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    5) This is true but ultimately irrelevant in the context of organized PvE, which everything else in this post is referring to. Anywhere you need mobility in any context of PvE you can run Shiro/Mallyx, instead of Kalla/Mallyx (with an easier rotation!) for like 1-2k benchmark DPS loss.

    No I'm not. I'm talking about mallyx EVERYWHERE. It loses might stacks EVERYWHERE. It loses mobility EVERYWHERE. It loses flexibility EVERYWHERE. It loses ease of use EVERYWHERE. It loses damage EVERYWHERE. This is common sense. All of those things matter in every game mode. This is why those huge model DPS tests tick me off. The claim that condi renegade isn't nerfed is based upon fingertwisting rotations that require super high-end gaming rigs, no-life levels of skill and health, and only work against a gigantic, immobile, defenseless target. I.E. the one or two raid bosses where this is somewhat the case. The other 99% of the game, everybody is feeling the sting.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Ertrak.9506Ertrak.9506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2019

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    Except for Sevenshot, Bloodbane Path, and Echoing Eruption. Those are also affected by size.

    7shot can hit all hits on a small hitbox provided you actually move during the rotation. Bloodbane path is a straight up lie (always 3 hits regardless of hitbox; this skill only fails on moving target, not small targets), and Echoing eruption's 2nd blast occurs past the hitbox even on a huge hitbox (epicenter is at 600 range with radius 180)

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    Why do you say things when you haven't done the math? Serious question. Banish Enchantment is 3 confusion stacks for 6 seconds for 20 energy. Unyielding Anguish was 8 stacks of torment for 6 seconds (20% stronger and 20% longer with Yearning Empowerment) in a large AoE for 30 energy. They aren't even close to comparable. This is even worse in PVP/WvW where Banish is 5 stacks of confusion for 2 seconds.

    BE isn't meant to be used as your primary DPS option. You should only be using if you have to dump energy. Confusion Procs also have increased effectiveness in PvE as opposed to PvP. These procs have pretty decent value at a fair few bosses, especially bosses where Condi damage is the most effective damage method.

    Damage on skill activation (Player):

    (0.0975 * Condition Damage) + (0.575 * Level) + 3.5 damage per stack.
    (0.0975 * Condition Damage) + 49.5 damage per stack.
    Damage on skill activation (NPC):

    (0.195 * Condition Damage) + (1.15 * Level) + 3.5 damage per stack.
    (0.195 * Condition Damage) + 95.5 damage per stack.

    Copied from the wiki. You're main source of damage is from EtD and proc'ing super pulses which is yielding a total torment output greater than pre patch of 2 UA's.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    You still don't have high burst options in either legend. You're just blowing every weapon skill you have as fast as you can in a way-too-complex rotation. Compare this to the previous option, which was just UA.

    You never had burst options. Condi builds in PvE were never focused around bursting with the sole exception of Condi Holo (niche build specifically designed for VG but honestly viable everywhere). As far as the rotation is concerned, complex rotations are design to push the lmits of damage output from the classes. Not wanting to, or not being able to execute these rotations doesn't give you a valid opinion on it being a good or bad thing.

    Furthermore, In PvP and WvW your main condi spikes come from legend swaping with SotM and Facet of the Elements, proc'ing condi transfers and Doom Sigil/Geomancy. UA was/is primarily a re-positioning tool and also for cleaving downs (which u can still use it for and interupting res'ing), not your primary damage spike.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    And everywhere else? And when EtD activates before the fire field? And when it does last longer? Did I specifically just say "raids?" Don't be difficult.

    Define "everywhere else". Youre whole post talked about PvE as you spoke about it first, and never specified anything else. EtD shouldn't fully activate before the field. If it does, get better. Sorry. If you truly believe the fire field is that important its your job to make sure it doesn't.

    Mace 2 specifically doesn't last longer than the 10s of EtD (in rotation), but plenty of other fire fields from other classes do. Additionally, ignoring that to put your argument in best-case, losing 5s of potential 1s burn finishers/blast finishers is not going to see a group dps decrease/might downtime respectively. I've yet to figure out how best to use the new EtD in PvP, but it's pretty inconceivable that you'd channel it for the full 10s between legends.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    No I'm not. I'm talking about mallyx EVERYWHERE. It loses might stacks EVERYWHERE. It loses mobility EVERYWHERE. It loses flexibility EVERYWHERE. It loses ease of use EVERYWHERE. It loses damage EVERYWHERE. This is common sense. All of those things matter in every game mode. This is why those huge model DPS tests tick me off. The claim that condi renegade isn't nerfed is based upon fingertwisting rotations that require super high-end gaming rigs, no-life levels of skill and health, and only work against a gigantic, immobile, defenseless target. I.E. the one or two raid bosses where this is somewhat the case. The other 99% of the game, everybody is feeling the sting.

    All rev builds lost might generation. It made some builds overpowered, they needed to be nerfed. There are plenty of other ways to get around it.

    The mobility it did lose, wasn't the same mobility skills that made it powerful. Furthermore, CtA can still be used to reposition but if u need to escape you'll just be forced onto staff now. Not something to scream over. Yes, CtA needs to be buffed. I said this. the 36 Energy coupled with 5s CD is too much for what it does, but these are simple number tweaks.

    It doesn't lose flexibility, you just need to play differently.

    It doesn't lose ease of use, if anything it got easier to play.

    It. didn't. lose. damage. This, is what is common sense. Just because you cannot do the rotation, just because you cannot play the class effectively, which you have fully admitted to by claiming you only pull 26k, doesn't mean its nerfed. All bosses, all PvE, are exactly what you scream is unrealistic. if bosses are moving all over the place you're playing the game wrong. And, in PvP you don't rely on the skills that got changed for damage anyways. This is a better design, even if numbers (CD's/costs) need to be changed.

  • And here we go again.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    7shot can hit all hits on a small hitbox provided you actually move during the rotation.

    No it can't. You have to move outside the range of EtD in order to get sevenshot to hit all seven shots, so it doesn't work in the rotation.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    Bloodbane path is a straight up lie (always 3 hits regardless of hitbox; this skill only fails on moving target, not small targets),

    It hits on large moving targets. So size matters.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    and Echoing eruption's 2nd blast occurs past the hitbox even on a huge hitbox (epicenter is at 600 range with radius 180)

    The irony is thick in the air. First you say that sevenshot works on small targets but you have to move, and now you say that echoing eruption doesn't hit twice. If you're facing a large enemy (I.E. where they usually stand while attacking you and not inside of the very center of their hitbox), then Echoing Eruption hits twice. Hell, this proves my point.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    BE isn't meant to be used as your primary DPS option. You should only be using if you have to dump energy. Confusion Procs also have increased effectiveness in PvE as opposed to PvP. These procs have pretty decent value at a fair few bosses, especially bosses where Condi damage is the most effective damage method.

    My complaint.
    |
    |
    |
    Your head.

    Quit being difficult.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    Damage on skill activation (Player):

    Dude, copying the wiki doesn't address the point I made and you know it. Why do you carry on, anyway? You say above that BE doesn't cover for the damage, then ramble on about confusion procs as if you're previous statement doesn't render everything you're going to say meaningless.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    Copied from the wiki. You're main source of damage is from EtD and proc'ing super pulses which is yielding a total torment output greater than pre patch of 2 UA's.

    Here's the thing, though. Using a simple rotation with a mace camping set, I used to be able to do about 30k condi DPS against the large golem. Now, I'm sitting 5k lower than that. Essentially, Anet has killed my playstyle, I.E. the only one I can actually do.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    You never had burst options.

    YES YOU DO! IT WAS UA! It allowed you to convert unspent energy into high damage very fast, and this was useful in all game modes.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    Condi builds in PvE were never focused around bursting

    Yes they are. It's called a condi bomb. It's in all game modes. It's where you unload a bunch of conditions very quickly as to overwhelm your opponent. You've missed the point, again.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    with the sole exception of Condi Holo (niche build specifically designed for VG but honestly viable everywhere). As far as the rotation is concerned, complex rotations are design to push the lmits of damage output from the classes. Not wanting to, or not being able to execute these rotations doesn't give you a valid opinion on it being a good or bad thing.

    Yes it does. I can just as easily say that people who are unnaturally good at the game makes their opinion invalid. The lesson here is this: Never trust anyone who tells you not to think.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    Furthermore, In PvP and WvW your main condi spikes come from legend swaping with SotM and Facet of the Elements,

    No, it didn't.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:

    Define "everywhere else".

    It's everywhere else.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    Youre whole post talked about PvE

    No it didn't.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    as you spoke about it first, and never specified anything else.

    I never specified anything.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    EtD shouldn't fully activate before the field. If it does, get better. Sorry. If you truly believe the fire field is that important its your job to make sure it doesn't.

    "If the skill is detrimental, obtrusive, and counterintuitive, then it is YOUR fault." How about no. Make EtD less stupid please.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    Mace 2 specifically doesn't last longer than the 10s of EtD (in rotation), but plenty of other fire fields from other classes do. Additionally, ignoring that to put your argument in best-case, losing 5s of potential 1s burn finishers/blast finishers is not going to see a group dps decrease/might downtime respectively. I've yet to figure out how best to use the new EtD in PvP, but it's pretty inconceivable that you'd channel it for the full 10s between legends.

    It was 6 stacks of might every Echoing Eruption. It was good, and we lost it. It is a nerf, no matter how much you try to dance around it. Quit being difficult.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    All rev builds lost might generation. It made some builds overpowered, they needed to be nerfed. There are plenty of other ways to get around it.

    Condi renegade might generation was overpowered?

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    The mobility it did lose, wasn't the same mobility skills that made it powerful.

    Yes it was. It was mobile, damaging, and disabling all at the same time.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    Furthermore, CtA can still be used to reposition but if u need to escape you'll just be forced onto staff now. Not something to scream over. Yes, CtA needs to be buffed. I said this. the 36 Energy coupled with 5s CD is too much for what it does, but these are simple number tweaks.

    "It still does some of what it was used for, except it's just much more terrible now and you have to replace your other weapons to fill the void it creates." You know what I'm saying. Quit being difficult.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    It doesn't lose flexibility, you just need to play differently.

    Wow this phrase contradicts itself. "You can do what you want, except you can't."

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    It doesn't lose ease of use, in anything it got easier to play. This, is what is common sense.

    Considering that these skills have higher energy costs, new introduced cooldowns, and require more stringent rotations to make use of, the common sense conclusion is that no, it didn't get easier to play. At all. We went from having two good options in mallyx for DPS to one. You're lying right to me, because you admit that nobody has figured out the high DPS rotation yet. If it was easier, then they would have.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    It. didn't. lose. damage. This, is what is common sense. Just because you cannot do the rotation, just because you cannot play the class effectively, which you have fully admitted to by claiming you only pull 26k, doesn't mean its nerfed.

    It really does. If the average player now pulls lower numbers, then the class has been nerfed. It's not that complicated. Just because somebody can play mozart on their keyboard and get high numbers doesn't mean that the rest of us don't feel the burn. Quit being inconsiderate.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    All bosses, all PvE, are exactly what you scream is unrealistic.

    So you agree with my assessment then?

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    if bosses are moving all over the place you're playing the game wrong.

    How silly of me to play against bosses with movement skills, bosses that I don't have 100% control over their aggro, or bosses that have such high damage that may occasionally have to dodge or move out of the way. That's totally my fault, and not the insane product of your myopic obsession with perfect raid groups. /sarcasm

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    And, in PvP you don't rely on the things you claim anyways for damage.

    You mean unyielding anguish? AKA the skill that let me win and 1v3 matchups in WvW singlehanded? Silly me. How could I not see that it was bad!?

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    This is a better design, even if numbers (CD's/costs) need to be changed.

    "It's better design... after they fix all the problems with its design." How about Anet doesn't fix what isn't broken in the first place. Also, how about you don't vent your personal problems all over my notification box. Literally everything you've said here is either wrong or a distraction.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Ertrak.9506Ertrak.9506 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    And here we go again.

    Well said.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    No it can't. You have to move outside the range of EtD in order to get sevenshot to hit all seven shots, so it doesn't work in the rotation.

    I stand corrected on this. The radius on EtD was smaller than i thought.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    It hits on large moving targets. So size matters.

    Lets consider the large hitbox bosses: Sloth, Samarog, Dhuum, Qadim Legendary Pets, and Qadim the Peerless (and arguments sake lets say Gors even though he's only 250 diameter). Sloth and Samarog both are very anti-condi DPS due to their mechanics and their phases. So you shouldn't be playing condi renegade there. Dhuum moves, but not often (should only have to move ~5-6 times depending on group dps), Qadim favours power DPS but condi ren is still viable, but even then the pets do not move, they teleport which wont cause skill failure, and Qadim the Peerless sits in the middle of the arena the whole fight so...while in theory you could be correct it never actually happens.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    The irony is thick in the air. First you say that sevenshot works on small targets but you have to move, and now you say that echoing eruption doesn't hit twice. If you're facing a large enemy (I.E. where they usually stand while attacking you and not inside of the very center of their hitbox), then Echoing Eruption hits twice. Hell, this proves my point.

    Largest raidboss hitbox is 400. This means that even if u do mace 3 at the edge of the hitbox, the next impact occurs 600 range away meaning the blast will miss the boss by 20 units.

    I feel that I must point out as i don't believe you understand the logic of benchmarking. Benchmarks have multiple purposes 1) obviously, to show the absolute max DPS a class can push under perfect circumstances, and 2) to show the impact on potential damage between to balance patches. In this particular case, point 2 is more important, in which the number itself is actually irrelevent and doesn't matter. What matters is that the potential went up which realistically mean that, if i play the exact same way in my encounters i should be able to do more damage than before.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    My complaint.
    |
    |
    |
    Your head.

    Quit being difficult.

    You're not countering my argument. Either counter or don't.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    Dude, copying the wiki doesn't address the point I made and you know it. Why do you carry on, anyway? You say above that BE doesn't cover for the damage, then ramble on about confusion procs as if you're previous statement doesn't render everything you're going to say meaningless.

    Because you don't seem to understand that triple UA didn't cover the lost DPS either. If you have to do a mechanics its always a DPS loss. Futhermore to give an example, Lets assume you're doing Dhuum greens for some reason, and the main fight takes about 7 minutes. Further, when you go and do a mechanic, its pretty safe to assume you'll have 100 energy coming back. This means u can get 5 BE's and 3 UA's. I went a bit conservitive and calculated for 4 BE's though. With 4 BE's you get a total damage output of 20.4k (DoT + procs), with 3 UA's you got 25.5k total damage output. Great.

    Now consider the entire fight compared with the new rotation. Over the course of the 7 minutes of the main fight (9 minute average for the whole fight but RP phase is 2 minutes long), you would take 5~ greens, for a damage loss (of old UA compared to BE) of 25,000~. Considering now the new rotation gained about 2k DPS, or a 5% DPS increase (which i proved above can be accepted), and going off your 26k personal benchmark you should be gaining about 1,500 dps personally. This means over the whole fight you actually gained ~620,000 Damage, which, even including bomb you may have to run, far outweighs the damage loss from triple UA VS Quadruple and especially Quintuple BE.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    Here's the thing, though. Using a simple rotation with a mace camping set, I used to be able to do about 30k condi DPS against the large golem. Now, I'm sitting 5k lower than that. Essentially, Anet has killed my playstyle, I.E. the only one I can actually do.

    I'm sorry to hear that. But do you really believe you should be rewarded that much, for that little effort? You should really try playing shiro/mallyx and just swap both a the same time. Immediately channel the upkeep in both and use skills.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    YES YOU DO! IT WAS UA! It allowed you to convert unspent energy into high damage very fast, and this was useful in all game modes.

    And you still can, but now its called Banish Enchantment. What is your point?

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    Yes they are. It's called a condi bomb. It's in all game modes. It's where you unload a bunch of conditions very quickly as to overwhelm your opponent. You've missed the point, again.

    I'm very familiar with WvW and PvP and and most especially, Raids. I can absolutely assure you, "condi bombs" were never a thing in Raids, and certainly not in fractals where you get kicked for even entering with a condi build half the time (in high end groups at least...)

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    Yes it does. I can just as easily say that people who are unnaturally good at the game makes their opinion invalid. The lesson here is this: Never trust anyone who tells you not to think.

    That's where your argument fails. To be that unnaturally good, and reach the same level of play as those people, requires you to actually think and understand the builds/rotations and why exactly what skills are used where, and at what exact time. There are synergies and skills that many people do not understand in this game that lead to drastic differences in play level.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    No, it didn't.

    Yes it did. Condi herald in PvP and WvW using SotM was the most potent condi rev build i've seen/used.It's spike combo comes from boon stripping with BE, axe4->legend swap->facet of the elements->mace 2-3 for a kitten load of torment, chill, poison, weakness, and burning, which easily set you you to throw out glint heal and still kept staff available if u bursted into too much pressure. It's biggest drawback was its only true sustain was glint heal/staff and was/still is, extremely vulnerable to CC. I suppose I dont speak for everyone but I've yet to face a renegade in PvP i couldn't easily outpace, its just that bad of a PvP spec.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    It's everywhere else.

    Vague.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    No it didn't.

    You didn't specify. I'm not going to waste my time guessing what you did and didn't mean.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    I never specified anything.

    You mentioned your golem DPS. Something exclusively used for Raids as a measuring tool for raids.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    "If the skill is detrimental, obtrusive, and counterintuitive, then it is YOUR fault." How about no. Make EtD less stupid please.

    "If I cant can't use the skill correctly, its the game's fault" Did I get that right?

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    It was 6 stacks of might every Echoing Eruption. It was good, and we lost it. It is a nerf, no matter how much you try to dance around it. Quit being difficult.

    If you're stacking might, then youre talking PvP/WvW, in which you should never have EtD and be stacking might at the same time? You should have already stacked your might before trying any kind of burst with EtD anyways so if your talking from that angle...your point is moot.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    Condi renegade might generation was overpowered?

    If your talking Renegade, most of your might comes from F2.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    Yes it was. It was mobile, damaging, and disabling all at the same time.

    So youre talking the UA nerf in mobility then. You do realize you can still re-position with it right? You just can't spam it, and with the Pull added to it (which i personally see as a good thing, increasing what you can use it for) you shouldn't be able to either.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    "It still does some of what it was used for, except it's just much more terrible now and you have to replace your other weapons to fill the void it creates." You know what I'm saying. Quit being difficult.

    You can still use it to re-position, and you still have the same escape potential you always had with staff. I'm not being difficult. I honestly think these changes were the right design direction. The added Pull means you now have samething else you can do with other than just re-position.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    Wow this phrase contradicts itself. "You can do what you want, except you can't."

    "You can do what you want, just not the same way as before" wow you keep calling me difficult but debating with you is like talking to a wall.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    Considering that these skills have higher energy costs, new introduced cooldowns, and require more stringent rotations to make use of, the common sense conclusion is that no, it didn't get easier to play. At all. We went from having two good options in mallyx for DPS to one. You're lying right to me, because you admit that nobody has figured out the high DPS rotation yet. If it was easier, then they would have.

    You dont use CtA in rotation now. So the higher cost/cooldown argument is moot when its not even used. The rotation is literally go in mallyx, pop elite, spam skills. its easy as hell. Also:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    It really does. If the average player now pulls lower numbers, then the class has been nerfed. It's not that complicated. Just because somebody can play mozart on their keyboard and get high numbers doesn't mean that the rest of us don't feel the burn. Quit being inconsiderate.

    No, it literally does not. The average player will get different values every time, and that value will over time, increase. That alone skews any correlation to how balance impacted a class's DPS.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    So you agree with my assessment then?

    All bosses in PvE behave, realistically, in the manners you call unrealistic. Raid bosses generally dont move and easily have proper debuffs, and players should, when playing correctly, have all proper boons/buffs on them. This is why team compositions exist the way they exist.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    How silly of me to play against bosses with movement skills, bosses that I don't have 100% control over their aggro, or bosses that have such high damage that may occasionally have to dodge or move out of the way. That's totally my fault, and not the insane product of your myopic obsession with perfect raid groups. /sarcasm

    Youre proving you dont play much PvE

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    You mean unyielding anguish? AKA the skill that let me win and 1v3 matchups in WvW singlehanded? Silly me. How could I not see that it was bad!?

    See above to my point about Condi herald in PvP

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    "It's better design... after they fix all the problems with its design." How about Anet doesn't fix what isn't broken in the first place. Also, how about you don't vent your personal problems all over my notification box. Literally everything you've said here is either wrong or a distraction.

    "Literally everything you've said here is either wrong or a distraction. " This is ironic since there are many point of mine you didn't counter, and many more logical fallicies i didn't point out.

    Please differentiate between "Design" and "balance". Design can affect the balance, but that doesn't make it the same thing. What I mean is, number tweaks do not change the design of a skill. CtA for example, is designed now as a control skill, instead of a soft damage/soft control hybrid. Numbers can further balance this skill. The design of it is good, clearly establishing a purpose and what to use it for. The balance (how often it can be used, its cost) being too high, doesn't change how the skill is meant to be used and when to use it. The design is good, the balance is bad.

    I said already and i'll say it again. I argue because I am extremely passionate about this class. I legitimately feel this design change for Mallyx put it in a better spot than it previously was, even if the CD's and costs were overkill.

  • LucianTheAngelic.7054LucianTheAngelic.7054 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2019

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    and Echoing eruption's 2nd blast occurs past the hitbox even on a huge hitbox (epicenter is at 600 range with radius 180)

    The irony is thick in the air. First you say that sevenshot works on small targets but you have to move, and now you say that echoing eruption doesn't hit twice. If you're facing a large enemy (I.E. where they usually stand while attacking you and not inside of the very center of their hitbox), then Echoing Eruption hits twice. Hell, this proves my point.

    Okay I just want to fact check and clear this up for both of you, because you're both wrong in some ways about this and it's bugging me, but ECHOING ERUPTION IS CODED TO ONLY HIT ONE TARGET ONE TIME. Essentially, back in May 2017 it got the Coalesence of Ruin treatment in which the cascading blasts were not able to strike multiple times on the same target. SO the reason it only hits one target once has literally nothing to do with hitbox size and everything to do with balance decisions two years ago from Anet devs. This also means that the only skills that hit for more damage on big hitboxes are Sevenshot and Citadel Bombardment (and I guess an argument can be made for bloodbane path, too, but I've never noticed this personally in raids, probably due to being too focused on what's actually going on. Worth noting it doesn't miss at all on the mobile smallest size golem in the aerodrome).

    Anyway if you don't believe me feel free to check the wiki or test it yourself on the golem:

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Echoing_Eruption

    Now you guys can carry on your argument <3

  • Ertrak.9506Ertrak.9506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2019

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    and Echoing eruption's 2nd blast occurs past the hitbox even on a huge hitbox (epicenter is at 600 range with radius 180)

    The irony is thick in the air. First you say that sevenshot works on small targets but you have to move, and now you say that echoing eruption doesn't hit twice. If you're facing a large enemy (I.E. where they usually stand while attacking you and not inside of the very center of their hitbox), then Echoing Eruption hits twice. Hell, this proves my point.

    Okay I just want to fact check and clear this up for both of you, because you're both wrong in some ways about this and it's bugging me, but ECHOING ERUPTION IS CODED TO ONLY HIT ONE TARGET ONE TIME. Essentially, back in May 2017 it got the Coalesence of Ruin treatment in which the cascading blasts were not able to strike multiple times on the same target. SO the reason it only hits one target once has literally nothing to do with hitbox size and everything to do with balance decisions two years ago from Anet devs. This also means that the only skills that hit for more damage on big hitboxes are Sevenshot and Citadel Bombardment (and I guess an argument can be made for bloodbane path, too, but I've never noticed this personally in raids, probably due to being too focused on what's actually going on. Worth noting it doesn't miss at all on the mobile smallest size golem in the aerodrome).

    Anyway if you don't believe me feel free to check the wiki or test it yourself on the golem:

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Echoing_Eruption

    Now you guys can carry on your argument <3

    May 16, 2017
    This skill is no longer able to multistrike targets.

    I actually did not know this. Thank you! and sorry for the misinformation

  • LucianTheAngelic.7054LucianTheAngelic.7054 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ertrak.9506 said:

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    and Echoing eruption's 2nd blast occurs past the hitbox even on a huge hitbox (epicenter is at 600 range with radius 180)

    The irony is thick in the air. First you say that sevenshot works on small targets but you have to move, and now you say that echoing eruption doesn't hit twice. If you're facing a large enemy (I.E. where they usually stand while attacking you and not inside of the very center of their hitbox), then Echoing Eruption hits twice. Hell, this proves my point.

    Okay I just want to fact check and clear this up for both of you, because you're both wrong in some ways about this and it's bugging me, but ECHOING ERUPTION IS CODED TO ONLY HIT ONE TARGET ONE TIME. Essentially, back in May 2017 it got the Coalesence of Ruin treatment in which the cascading blasts were not able to strike multiple times on the same target. SO the reason it only hits one target once has literally nothing to do with hitbox size and everything to do with balance decisions two years ago from Anet devs. This also means that the only skills that hit for more damage on big hitboxes are Sevenshot and Citadel Bombardment (and I guess an argument can be made for bloodbane path, too, but I've never noticed this personally in raids, probably due to being too focused on what's actually going on. Worth noting it doesn't miss at all on the mobile smallest size golem in the aerodrome).

    Anyway if you don't believe me feel free to check the wiki or test it yourself on the golem:

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Echoing_Eruption

    Now you guys can carry on your argument <3

    May 16, 2017
    This skill is no longer able to multistrike targets.

    I actually did not know this. Thank you! and sorry for the misinformation

    You’re welcome! And no worries :)

  • Blood Red Arachnid.2493Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2019

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    Lets consider the large hitbox bosses: Sloth, Samarog, Dhuum, Qadim Legendary Pets, and Qadim the Peerless (and arguments sake lets say Gors even though he's only 250 diameter).

    NO. I have made it really clear that I am not talking exclusively about raids. Over and over again.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    Largest raidboss hitbox is 400. This means that even if u do mace 3 at the edge of the hitbox, the next impact occurs 600 range away meaning the blast will miss the boss by 20 units.

    I just tested it out. First, the second hit of Echoing Eruption is clearly hitting the testing golem. Second, Lucien explained above what has happened.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    I feel that I must point out as i don't believe you understand the logic of benchmarking. Benchmarks have multiple purposes 1) obviously, to show the absolute max DPS a class can push under perfect circumstances, and 2) to show the impact on potential damage between to balance patches. In this particular case, point 2 is more important, in which the number itself is actually irrelevent and doesn't matter. What matters is that the potential went up which realistically mean that, if i play the exact same way in my encounters i should be able to do more damage than before.

    I know the logic. The problem is that it doesn't translate to the layman. It's been a criticism that I've had with benchmarks for years now. You can say that condi renegade has 36k DPS, but if doing that rotation on a realistic target doesn't even come close, then why bother? To claim that condi renegades are doing more damage when that is false for the majority of the game is outright disingenuous. It is more accurate to claim the opposite, that condi renegades do less damage, except in those specific circumstances where they end up doing more.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:

    You're not countering my argument. Either counter or don't.

    "I'm distracting you with a completely irrelevant point. HOW DARE YOU IGNORE IT!" I'm not fooled. You're responding to me, not the other way around. If you aren't going to pay attention to what I said, then go away.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    Because you don't seem to understand that triple UA didn't cover the lost DPS either.

    That has NOTHING to do what what you just did or what I just said.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    If you have to do a mechanics its always a DPS loss. Futhermore to give an example, Lets assume you're doing Dhuum greens for some reason

    NO. I have made it really clear that I am not talking exclusively about raids. Over and over again. The numbers you have clearly show that, if you are denied the ability to do damage for a length of time, UA was better by a long shot. By trying to delve into extremely specific examples, you're neglecting all of the variables that show up in the rest of the game.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    I'm sorry to hear that. But do you really believe you should be rewarded that much, for that little effort?

    Yes. Unquestionably. It is stupid design to make the greatest hindrance to a player's performance be fighting the User Interface. GW2 is the only game I've played where the hardest part about doing well is memorizing and perfecting the 30 skill rotation necessary for every class. You know how you do well in Bloodborne? You press the attack key to do damage, the dodge key to avoid damage, and the parry key when opportunity strikes. Know how you do well in Cuphead? You press the fire button, jump out of the way of enemy attacks, and you slap the pink stuff. But for the renegade? Memorize an inordinately long set of 11 separate buttons in non-arbitrary order with split second timing, otherwise the energy mechanic will cut a quarter of your performance away Even in my disabled state, I can completely the onebro challenge in dark souls with relative ease. The first time I play most games, I put it on the hard difficulty, just because I'm that used to games. But, for some reason, I just can't do good in this stupid game!

    Other games make things simple to play, and then make all of the difficulty be about puzzle solving, creativity, spacing, and tactics for dealing with a particular encounter. The environment is the obstacle in those games, not the UI. GW2 is the only game where your toon is incompetent by default, and you have to dig deep into third party resources just to play at an acceptable level. This is not good design. It breeds hostility with other players, because by default they are incompetent. It makes learning the game nigh unassailable, whether by skill or by how expensive your rig needs to get. It limits encounter design and encourages cheating, just to deal with the UI. This problem is even worse for condi builds, because all of their damage is locked into utilities, and their weapons are worse than their power counterparts. The only benefit this has is that all of the players with expensive rigs, excellent health and dexterity, and way too much free time get to feel superior because they do good damage. Which is a really terrible reason.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    And you still can, but now its called Banish Enchantment. What is your point?

    My point is that we're worse off because the two skills are not comparable in effectiveness.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    I'm very familiar with WvW and PvP and and most especially, Raids. I can absolutely assure you, "condi bombs" were never a thing in Raids, and certainly not in fractals where you get kicked for even entering with a condi build half the time (in high end groups at least...)

    Unloading all of your damaging skills in a fight is a thing in Raids and Fractals. Doesn't matter if it is condi or power.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    That's where your argument fails. To be that unnaturally good, and reach the same level of play as those people, requires you to actually think and understand the builds/rotations and why exactly what skills are used where, and at what exact time. There are synergies and skills that many people do not understand in this game that lead to drastic differences in play level.

    I have a box. Inside if this box is the ultimate cure for obesity. It will let you lose all the weight you want no matter how much you eat, thus solving the obesity epidemic of the world forever. This box is indestructible, and the only way to open the box is to solve a coded cipher listed on its side. Nobody else can solve the cipher. Aren't you glad that we've solved the obesity epidemic? Well, I am, and this also allows me to talk down to everyone who's overweight, because clearly their inability to open the box doesn't mean there's no cure inside! Clearly, I should be respected because I understand the cipher better than others.

    You have to respect varying skill levels. They're real, and they have a strong impact on the game as a whole. What you set as the acceptable standard is wholly relative, and somebody else can discount your thoughts for the exact same reason that you discount theirs. A group of players can come together, and say that they're going to ignore all of these benchmarks because they are not representative of average player performance. They would be equally justified to dismiss you as you are to dismiss them for holding the opposite view, because ultimately you both have the exact same line of reasoning: "Their experiences do not reflect mine, and are not applicable to my own in any way."

    @Ertrak.9506 said:

    Yes it did.

    So all those times that I melted people with UA don't count because?

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    Vague.

    It's not vague. It is everywhere else.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    You didn't specify. I'm not going to waste my time guessing what you did and didn't mean.

    This is your fault. You came to ME with a problem with what I said, and instead of just asking for clarification or making a quick pip about how this affects different game modes differently, you go and rant ON AND ON about raids like nothing else exists and accuse me of misrepresenting the updates. I'm getting pretty sick of this game of yours. It's clear you're just here for the fight.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    You mentioned your golem DPS. Something exclusively used for Raids as a measuring tool for raids.

    No it isn't. The damage you do affects the entire game, because that is all you do in this game. You get lower benchmarks because the skills do less damage, which means that the entire game is now harder. Doesn't matter if it is overworld or WvW.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    "If I cant can't use the skill correctly, its the game's fault" Did I get that right?

    Pretty much. I've gone over how the skill is stupidly designed. You're the one trying toe explain away the problems, not me.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    If you're stacking might, then youre talking PvP/WvW,

    NO. It is everywhere.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    If your talking Renegade, most of your might comes from F2.

    Condi Renegade might generation was overpowered?

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    So youre talking the UA nerf in mobility then. You do realize you can still re-position with it right? You just can't spam it, and with the Pull added to it (which i personally see as a good thing, increasing what you can use it for) you shouldn't be able to either.

    You do realize that now it costs more energy and has a cooldown, right? You do realize that makes it less flexible and harder to use, right?

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    You can still use it to re-position, and you still have the same escape potential you always had with staff. I'm not being difficult. I honestly think these changes were the right design direction. The added Pull means you now have samething else you can do with other than just re-position.

    You do realize that now it costs more energy and has a cooldown, right? You do realize that makes it less flexible and harder to use, right?

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    "You can do what you want, just not the same way as before" wow you keep calling me difficult but debating with you is like talking to a wall.

    I'm not budging when you try to shove random things into what I said, and I'm also not falling for every red herring you drag across the screen. If you're complaining that I'm being stubborn, then look in the mirror, because you're standing right here with me. Everything you say is either wrong, irrelevant, or a distraction. You don't make salient points. If I was actually talking to a reasonable person, we would've hashed out this entire thing within 3 exchanges, each one roughly a paragraph in length.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    You dont use CtA in rotation now. So the higher cost/cooldown argument is moot when its not even used. The rotation is literally go in mallyx, pop elite, spam skills. its easy as hell.

    Dude, you know what I"m referring to. You just mentioned it above in your extremely specific Dhuum scenario. Don't be difficult.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:

    Copying those rotations, I do about 30k DPS with the extremely complicated ones. My wrists now hurt after an hour of trying. It's not easy. At all.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    No, it literally does not. The average player will get different values every time, and that value will over time, increase. That alone skews any correlation to how balance impacted a class's DPS.

    Yes it literally does. What you've said isn't true. All players, whether it be by skill or by hardware, have a cap on their performance, and they'll never improve beyond that point. They deserve as much regard as any tryhard, so take them into consideration.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    All bosses in PvE behave, realistically, in the manners you call unrealistic. Raid bosses generally dont move and easily have proper debuffs, and players should, when playing correctly, have all proper boons/buffs on them. This is why team compositions exist the way they exist.

    NO. I have made it really clear that I am not talking exclusively about raids. Over and over again.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    Youre proving you dont play much PvE

    NO. I have made it really clear that I am not talking exclusively about raids. Over and over again.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    See above to my point about Condi herald in PvP

    What you have said does not negate nor contradict my experiences. So... nuh uh.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    "Literally everything you've said here is either wrong or a distraction. " This is ironic since there are many point of mine you didn't counter, and many more logical fallicies i didn't point out.

    In spite of my readiness to carve up every single sentence you say, know something incredibly important here: I owe your ignorance nothing. Your view is unnaturally warped around very specific circumstances, and you become indignant when I don't play along. It's so bad that I keep having to copy/paste the exact same line over and over again, because you keep doing the same thing. You have put great stock into things that aren't representative, aren't important, aren't what I have said, aren't applicable to what I am talking about, aren't contradictory to the points I have made, or sometimes doesn't even make sense in the context they are said. Now, you're trying to twist this into some undeserving sense of pride. "Wow! This guy didn't respond to my Dhuum example! I guess that means I won!"

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    Please differentiate between "Design" and "balance".

    Irrelevant nitpicking.

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    I said already and i'll say it again. I argue because I am extremely passionate about this class. I legitimately feel this design change for Mallyx put it in a better spot than it previously was, even if the CD's and costs were overkill.

    I don't believe you. I've seen your arguing cadence and tactics used a hundred times, and it is never about "passion". You're just intolerant.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Ertrak.9506Ertrak.9506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2019

    Ok if you're literally going to sink to personal attacks (which is a fallacious argument btw) then I'm not arguing with you. Congratulations. Have fun being "nerfed"

    I've made my stance and at this point this you're countering with nothing more than "im right you're wrong". You don't get to cherrypick whatever you feel like counter arguing that fits you best. I have literally, mathematically, proven that not only is your damage output is more than it was before only using dhuum as an example (with other game modes being untouched for damage output as damage output was not reliant on UA in those modes), but also that the design changes were good (which is relevant as you refuse to acknowledge that I have stated over and over and over again that the skill still needs further balancing). So i don't see where this conversation can further go, especially when you do the exact "distraction tactics" you constantly accuse me of.

    I'm going to continue to enjoy being better, and playing better than pre-patch.

  • Aigleborgne.2981Aigleborgne.2981 Member ✭✭✭

    Unyielding Anguish wasn't all about dps. It was an excellent tool for kiting while doing good dps. That pulsing chill was great, it was possibly mallyx best skill.
    And abysmal chill was almost done for this skill, since it would have been almost useless without.

    Now what? Yes EtD is great, but doesn't help for kiting.
    Call for anguish might be nice, but very costly and made one trait useless plus lost most of its ability to kite.
    Not to mention kiting with dps, as you can't really use both skills to do something you could do with UA only.

    They could have removed torment on UA, add its pull and leap finisher. Then you could pull foes into a pulsing chill field, adding torment while traited. Pretty cool!

    But current version is meh...

  • Lonewolf Kai.3682Lonewolf Kai.3682 Member ✭✭✭

    Wow, Ertrak and Blood Red Arachnid, you two just need to put in room so you can duke it out. But seriously, please keep the discussion civil and without attacks. There’s no need to get a thread discussion about the patch locked. Honestly, I think both of you have valid points and both have a few grey area arguments with some holes in them, but I’m certainly not going to get in the middle of you two and get knocked out by a punch aimed at the other guy. 😂

    But somethings from the patch and discussion I’d like some personal clarification on in regards to the EtD dark field in terms of pvp/WvW :
    Someone stated that while having the dark field on you, all an enemy would have to do is kite you and use your dark field against use shooting projectiles at you and getting life leech. I didn’t think an enemy target could use your own combo fields. Am I wrong there?

    Also, someone above mentioned that if you have EtD going and then someone else decides to drop a fire field down, expecting some fire combos, they going to get dark combos. At this point wouldn’t that be the fire field droppers fault, not the Revenant? I like the dark field, it’s got some neat interactions in a small group, duo, solo situation, but I can see where it’s an issue in a Zerg fight, in WvW. Revenants are just going to have to turn off EtD quite often, wherewith comes the CD problem. You can’t turn it back on for 10s which is an eternity in competitive modes.

  • phokus.8934phokus.8934 Member ✭✭✭✭

    An enemy won’t be able to use your dark field against you unless it’s a bug.

  • @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:
    Wow, Ertrak and Blood Red Arachnid, you two just need to put in room so you can duke it out. But seriously, please keep the discussion civil and without attacks. There’s no need to get a thread discussion about the patch locked. Honestly, I think both of you have valid points and both have a few grey area arguments with some holes in them, but I’m certainly not going to get in the middle of you two and get knocked out by a punch aimed at the other guy. 😂

    But somethings from the patch and discussion I’d like some personal clarification on in regards to the EtD dark field in terms of pvp/WvW :
    Someone stated that while having the dark field on you, all an enemy would have to do is kite you and use your dark field against use shooting projectiles at you and getting life leech. I didn’t think an enemy target could use your own combo fields. Am I wrong there?

    Also, someone above mentioned that if you have EtD going and then someone else decides to drop a fire field down, expecting some fire combos, they going to get dark combos. At this point wouldn’t that be the fire field droppers fault, not the Revenant? I like the dark field, it’s got some neat interactions in a small group, duo, solo situation, but I can see where it’s an issue in a Zerg fight, in WvW. Revenants are just going to have to turn off EtD quite often, wherewith comes the CD problem. You can’t turn it back on for 10s which is an eternity in competitive modes.

    To be frank, it was never civil to begin with. He started the conversation by accusing me of things that I wasn't even saying, and then refused to budge from that point. That's not something a civil or reasonable person does. It's called motivated reasoning. See, Ertrak has a problem with what I say on a personal level, but instead of working out his feelings like an adult he decided to make it all my problem. He's not trying to be informative, understanding, considerate, clear, or even factually correct. He's trying to make me feel bad. To honor this is a greater disservice than calling it out.

    See, I can tell that you're reasonable, because you posed the question of whether it is the Revs fault for having a dark field up, or another class for not respecting that rev's have a dark field up. To even ask that question requires self reflection and perspective. Someone who isn't reasonable will just pick one or the other, and then fight the whole world over it. Now, to answer your questions:

    (1): Enemies can't use your combo fields.
    (2): As for who's fault it is, that is largely up to the community to decide. The line there is sort of arbitrary, and no matter what the elites choose, there's going to be a sizable portion of the population that disagrees.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Lonewolf Kai.3682Lonewolf Kai.3682 Member ✭✭✭

    Yeah, I thought that was misinformation. When I read that from another post, I was what!? That's not right....

    I think people in general are going to ask Revs to hold off on using EtD a LOT.

  • KidRoleplay.3615KidRoleplay.3615 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 19, 2019

    Gain one charge of "improved" EtD per 5 energy spent. Lose all charges when EtD ends. ... Might be OP though.

    Edit: Max, 3 charges.

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Hmmm...feelings on the Mallyx changes are essentially the same as when the patch dropped. Elite is nice but the 10s CD is lame, and Call to Anguish is...meh at best: easily blindable, CCable, and in general avoidable. I prefer pre-patch Mallyx.

    Healing orbs are a mistake. Please delete them ANet.

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Didn't touch the game in 3 weeks; Shiro now truly feels like garbage: we had already lost the quickness from Impossible Odds a lot of time ago, but now also lost the 33% movement speed from swiftness... What the hell is this kitten? The Legendary Assasin is now slow like an obese walrus with nothing in exchange! And no, don't even talk me about Rising Momentum: that pile of manure is not from Devastation, but from the Herald traitline. Shiro is now SLOW (and core Shiro a damned slug), this class is unrecognizable from the one which was released at HoT!

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Buran.3796 said:
    Didn't touch the game in 3 weeks; Shiro now truly feels like garbage: we had already lost the quickness from Impossible Odds a lot of time ago, but now also lost the 33% movement speed from swiftness... What the hell is this kitten? The Legendary Assasin is now slow like an obese walrus with nothing in exchange! And no, don't even talk me about Rising Momentum: that pile of manure is not from Devastation, but from the Herald traitline. Shiro is now SLOW (and core Shiro a damned slug), this class is unrecognizable from the one which was released at HoT!

    Yeah even over the Mallyx changes I find the removal of superspeed on IO to be more painful. The skill feels terrible now. They need to adjust the upkeep cost or give it an added effect.

    Healing orbs are a mistake. Please delete them ANet.

  • Helius.8321Helius.8321 Member ✭✭

    I only WvW and my main roaming class is rev and losing super speed on IO was a sad time for me. The new 50% speed offered from the skill is useless tbh. I'm ok with some of the damage loss from the other nerfs because we know rev is really strong in the right hands but losing super speed was an unnecessary change. Also I know i'm really late on this. I still would like to have my super speed on IO back.

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