PVP Proposition — Guild Wars 2 Forums

PVP Proposition

VALARMORGHULIS.9173VALARMORGHULIS.9173 Member ✭✭
edited July 18, 2019 in PVP

The Issue

Fact #1: I have played this game for around 7 years now. Many know that I have mained Necromancer for 7 years, and I currently play Necro in the competitive environment (I also have played and understand all of the other classes, their roles, etc...). The only current competitive environment is the Monthly AT. That's the issue; We get one event a month, and then 50% of those people that win the top 4 places log out for 3 weeks. That is all facts.

-Fact #2: Players that have played in the ESL or AG before, and/or are in the top 50 on ranked LB get matched with players who don't even know how to dodge (that is just an example that scratches the surface to show their low skill level). These players who can't even dodge are either players that the matchmaking system has gone down to gold to pick up after a plat 2-3 or Legend player has waited in Qeue for 7-8 min OR they are players who just so happen to have been lucky enough to make it into plat 1 and MAYBE even plat 2 (and perhaps this is because they are on a class that happens to be over tuned....or it could just be luck...or the fact that my cat could be in the 250-150 LB range because there aren't a lot of players).

Theory that follows from the previous: The population of the spvp community is too small to effectively run a solo or duo ranked season.

Theory #2: Arenanet has serious issues in player Acquisition, and retention in all game modes. Their targeted customer segment is a customer segment that is very narrow, and shrinking. This isn't ever going to be fixed unless you get someone with brains that comes in and applies a serious business model overhaul--revamping your value propositions to focus on the customer segment that actually has the most potential ROI, Conversion, or whatever you want to call it.

Since this is never going to happen-here is my proposition so that those of us who still enjoy sPvP (and are good at it) can get the most out of it while we can: (please notice how I said "AND ARE GOOD AT IT"--this implies that the following proposition caters not to casuals but MAINLY to the top 10% skilled players that are tearing their hair out of their head in ranked qeue because you, Arenanet, failed to correct your business model after you blew $250,000 USD at the worst possible time).

Now that all of that is said, and now that I have explained Entrepreneurship & Marketing Segmentation 101 to you as it applies to the game...

Here's what to NOT do:

  1. Do away with ranked solo/duo Q and ranked leaderboards.
  2. Do away with the Daily or Monthly Automated Tournaments or their rewards.
  3. Remove features and rewards for the casuals.

Add these features:

  1. Add a SEPARATE 5 man only team Qeue where you can only and specifically Qeue as a Guild Team--thus making further use of that feature.
  2. Re Add team leaderboards for these 5 man Qeues in ranked that is separate from the solo/duo Q ranked leaderboards and rewards. (I know with this you could possibly run into matchmaking issues, but I think that a team should be within 10 places of each other to be matched against one another. If there is no other team queuing in that range after a certain amount of time, then the system can start looking 10 placements further down, and then after more time it looks another 10 spots down for a team qeueing).
  3. Scale up rewards won in the MaT and apply them to the top 10 corresponding places on the team ranked leaderboard as the rewards. (This is obviously a more competitive environment than the MaT).

The proposed potential results of such a change:

  1. Players in the top 10% skill range are happier and mentally healthier.
  2. Disappearing after the MaT for 3 weeks (examples: Toker, Zeromis, Nos, Kat, Olrun, Zorh, Moobs, Jeff) is DE-INCENTIVIZED. (this is because now there is a new competitive environment with better rewards that requires consistent play). --sidenote: these better rewards devalue the rewards won in previous MaTs.
  3. Player retention increases in general
  4. Player retention increases because now people are playing better teams and learning from their losses more than once a month (in the MaT). Sidenote--players get better at conquest not carrying pugs on meme builds.
  5. Player retention increases because rewards are now attainable in more than one way.
  6. Player Acquisition increases because now there is a new and potentially educative competitive environment with good rewards.

**TLDR; Overall--Fostering a ranked system that encourages players to play conquest the way it was meant to be played and incentivizing that creates a better community as well as a learning environment. This opens up the potential for others to learn how to play conquest properly.

This proposed system forces players to learn conquest the way it was meant to be played if they want to be a top team and earn rewards. Create a better system for this. The current system only incentivizes matchfixing, Qeue Dodging, Cheese builds, and playing conquest in a way that it wasn't meant to be played.**

-Contraversy

P.S. Arenanet: I have seen you advertising on Instagram...a little tip from someone who works in that Industry: If you're going to advertise, then advertise a new sPvP competitive feature such as the one I just proposed before you implement it in game. Hype it up etc. Pivot your target market back to the competitive sPvP scene (this is conditional though--you have to make your game not boring as hell to watch.... aka bunker wars 2...

Comments

  • @VALARMORGHULIS.9173 said:
    Here's what to not do:

    1. Don't do away with ranked solo/duo Q and ranked leaderboards.
    2. Don't do away with the Daily or Monthly Automated Tournaments or their rewards.
    3. Keep these features and rewards for the casuals.

    That's a double negative, right?

    Add these features:

    1. Add a SEPARATE 5 man only team Qeue where you can only and specifically Qeue as a Guild Team--thus making further use of that feature.
    2. Re Add team leaderboards for these 5 man Qeues in ranked that is separate from the solo/duo Q ranked leaderboards and rewards. (I know with this you could possibly run into matchmaking issues, but I think that a team should be within 10 places of each other to be matched against one another. If there is no other team queuing in that range after a certain amount of time, then the system can start looking 10 placements further down, and then after more time it looks another 10 spots down for a team qeueing).
    3. Scale up rewards won in the MaT and apply them to the top 10 corresponding places on the team ranked leaderboard as the rewards. (This is obviously a more competitive environment than the MaT).

    The proposed potential results of such a change:

    1. Players in the top 10% skill range are happier and mentally healthier.
    2. Disappearing after the MaT for 3 weeks (examples: Toker, Zeromis, Nos, Kat, Olrun, Zorh, Moobs, Jeff) is DE-INCENTIVIZED. (this is because now there is a new competitive environment with better rewards that requires consistent play). --sidenote: these better rewards devalue the rewards won in previous MaTs.
    3. Player retention increases in general
    4. Player retention increases because now people are playing better teams and learning from their losses more than once a month (in the MaT). Sidenote--players get better at conquest not carrying pugs on meme builds.
    5. Player retention increases because rewards are now attainable in more than one way.
    6. Player Acquisition increases because now there is a new and potentially educative competitive environment with good rewards.

    I mean, I agree with the separate TeamQ option and what that'd do for sPvP entirely, but i'd argue that's the exact polar opposite of what most the top 10% wants for this game.

    I've suggested TeamQ or GuildQ countless times to top ranked players, MAT winners, and it's always immediately shot down, called ridiculous, or it's said that the population is just too low.

    They seem to revel in having the most unbalanced, and least competitive experience possible; which is common in a lot of games, with good players never wanting to be matched against other good players, only wanting to stomp noobs.

    That's why they'll rabidly defend Merged queues in a low pop, but lash out when presented with the option to either Solo or TeamQ. Even though Merged Queues create terrible rating disparities in ranked and only serve to drop the population further. A fraction of top players will forever ignore the self-perpetuating issue so they can have at those Whales they love so much.

    If Whales are impulse buyers in the gaming market, then Whales in gw2 ranked are casual golds who come over from PvE because the rewards are great whether you win or lose, try or don't try. If you mean to say those rewards should be done away with, then I absolutely agree with you 100%.

    I appreciate the effort, but so long as Arenanet continues to listen to only a handful of people to structure their gamemode; then TeamQ/GuildQ will never come back. They'd have to learn to take opinions from both sides, rather than playing favorites with the side known for match manipulation and extended ego trips.

    I'll note that this doesn't apply to all top players, obviously. It's a minority of the minority even.

    Remove Ranked DuoQ pls&ty

  • Zagerus.8675Zagerus.8675 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2019

    I think your Theory #2 about player retention hits the nail on the head. The difficult thing about PvP in this game is that.. well, it's difficult to be good at. It takes a lot of time, consistent practice over a period of time, and contemplation/application of theoretical aspects to get good at. And you have to be good at it to actually enjoy it. This by proxy means that any new aspiring PvPers will have to jump through several difficult hurdles before they can find the enjoyment from a competitive mode that they were looking for in the first place.

    I would assume that more players than one would want to ponder have probably jumped ship before they hit the mechanical majesty of the game. It's the bad side affect of having such a mechanically deep combat system. For veterans it is heaven because it means that those split-second decisions can have extremely big payoffs for you and your teammates. Nothing comes close to the shared feelings of overcoming (or losing) a difficult PvP match with 4 other people. It's the realest feeling and it's addicting. I still queue even though I know that there is a chance that I'm going to get farmed by a DuoQ - just for another chance to taste that shared triumph again. Anything that can create a better environment to learn the game in and help players become more adaptable gets a +1 in my book.

  • @VALARMORGHULIS.9173 said:

    The Issue

    Fact #1: I have played this game for around 7 years now. Many know that I have mained Necromancer for 7 years, and I currently play Necro in the competitive environment (I also have played and understand all of the other classes, their roles, etc...). The only current competitive environment is the Monthly AT. That's the issue; We get one event a month, and then 50% of those people that win the top 4 places log out for 3 weeks. That is all facts.

    -Fact #2: Players that have played in the ESL or AG before, and/or are in the top 50 on ranked LB get matched with players who don't even know how to dodge (that is just an example that scratches the surface to show their low skill level). These players who can't even dodge are either players that the matchmaking system has gone down to gold to pick up after a plat 2-3 or Legend player has waited in Qeue for 7-8 min OR they are players who just so happen to have been lucky enough to make it into plat 1 and MAYBE even plat 2 (and perhaps this is because they are on a class that happens to be over tuned....or it could just be luck...or the fact that my cat could be in the 250-150 LB range because there aren't a lot of players).

    Theory that follows from the previous: The population of the spvp community is too small to effectively run a solo or duo ranked season.

    Theory #2: Arenanet has serious issues in player Acquisition, and retention in all game modes. Their targeted customer segment is a customer segment that is very narrow, and shrinking. This isn't ever going to be fixed unless you get someone with brains that comes in and applies a serious business model overhaul--revamping your value propositions to focus on the customer segment that actually has the most potential ROI, Conversion, or whatever you want to call it.

    Since this is never going to happen-here is my proposition so that those of us who still enjoy sPvP (and are good at it) can get the most out of it while we can: (please notice how I said "AND ARE GOOD AT IT"--this implies that the following proposition caters not to casuals but MAINLY to the top 10% skilled players that are tearing their hair out of their head in ranked qeue because you, Arenanet, failed to correct your business model after you blew $250,000 USD at the worst possible time).

    Now that all of that is said, and now that I have explained Entrepreneurship & Marketing Segmentation 101 to you as it applies to the game...

    Here's what to not do:

    1. Don't do away with ranked solo/duo Q and ranked leaderboards.
    2. Don't do away with the Daily or Monthly Automated Tournaments or their rewards.
    3. Keep these features and rewards for the casuals.

    Add these features:

    1. Add a SEPARATE 5 man only team Qeue where you can only and specifically Qeue as a Guild Team--thus making further use of that feature.
    2. Re Add team leaderboards for these 5 man Qeues in ranked that is separate from the solo/duo Q ranked leaderboards and rewards. (I know with this you could possibly run into matchmaking issues, but I think that a team should be within 10 places of each other to be matched against one another. If there is no other team queuing in that range after a certain amount of time, then the system can start looking 10 placements further down, and then after more time it looks another 10 spots down for a team qeueing).
    3. Scale up rewards won in the MaT and apply them to the top 10 corresponding places on the team ranked leaderboard as the rewards. (This is obviously a more competitive environment than the MaT).

    The proposed potential results of such a change:

    1. Players in the top 10% skill range are happier and mentally healthier.
    2. Disappearing after the MaT for 3 weeks (examples: Toker, Zeromis, Nos, Kat, Olrun, Zorh, Moobs, Jeff) is DE-INCENTIVIZED. (this is because now there is a new competitive environment with better rewards that requires consistent play). --sidenote: these better rewards devalue the rewards won in previous MaTs.
    3. Player retention increases in general
    4. Player retention increases because now people are playing better teams and learning from their losses more than once a month (in the MaT). Sidenote--players get better at conquest not carrying pugs on meme builds.
    5. Player retention increases because rewards are now attainable in more than one way.
    6. Player Acquisition increases because now there is a new and potentially educative competitive environment with good rewards.

    **TLDR; Overall--Fostering a ranked system that encourages players to play conquest the way it was meant to be played and incentivizing that creates a better community as well as a learning environment. This opens up the potential for others to learn how to play conquest properly.

    This proposed system forces players to learn conquest the way it was meant to be played if they want to be a top team and earn rewards. Create a better system for this. The current system only incentivizes matchfixing, Qeue Dodging, Cheese builds, and playing conquest in a way that it wasn't meant to be played.**

    -Contraversy

    P.S. Arenanet: I have seen you advertising on Instagram...a little tip from someone who works in that Industry: If you're going to advertise, then advertise a new sPvP competitive feature such as the one I just proposed before you implement it in game. Hype it up etc. Pivot your target market back to the competitive sPvP scene (this is conditional though--you have to make your game not boring as hell to watch.... aka bunker wars 2...

    Valar Dohaeris.

  • Yes, I agree!

  • Ouk.5914Ouk.5914 Member ✭✭

    I can't disagree with you on what you mention. I just feel Like they NEED to do more for the community that WANTS to take this game to the next level and half assing things and not providing much of anything for us kinda kills it.

    @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 you are legit the only hope for this community please, respond if you can about the post with anything at all. Please be honest with us and tell us how the future looks for this game with us trying to keep it alive?

  • Honestly at this point i dont think 5 person team que will fix that much. The number of people that would play it is probably very low. The only thing that i can think of that might help pvp would be to add a non-competitive gamemode that can be played casually and still be fun. 3 point conquest is a game where each player is incredibly reliant on their team, and if 1 person on your team cant rotate, teamfight without dying instantly, or hold their own in a small fight for more than 5 seconds, then you are pretty much guaranteed to have a bad game. From what ive seen the majority of players arent competitive at all (even the ones who play ranked) and forcing them to only play a complex, high coordination team game causes a lot of frustration and toxicity.

  • Kaozkrayken.9570Kaozkrayken.9570 Member ✭✭
    edited July 18, 2019

    The game is dying because ArenaNet is not adapting. They want to keep everything the way it is because it's worked in the past and they will pay for it in one or two years time.

    By then, this game will be dead.

    I do agree with what you're saying about 5 man queues and I think it would be healthy for the pvp community. It would bring back pvp guilds because people would be looking for 4 other people to queue with making the population a bit more livelier.

    However, I don't think it's enough to keep the game alive. They need to stop clinging on to "what is" and start focusing on "what can be" if they want to be a successful company in the future.

  • VALARMORGHULIS.9173VALARMORGHULIS.9173 Member ✭✭
    edited July 18, 2019

    @Kaozkrayken.9570 said:
    The game is dying because ArenaNet is not adapting. They want to keep everything the way it is because it's worked in the past and they will pay for it in one or two years time.

    By then, this game will be dead.

    I do agree with what you're saying about 5 man queues and I think it would be healthy for the pvp community. It would bring back pvp guilds because people would be looking for 4 other people to queue with making the population a bit more livelier.

    However, I don't think it's enough to keep the game alive. They need to stop clinging on to "what is" and start focusing on "what can be" if they want to be a successful company in the future.

    My original post mentioned that it’s a matter of time until someone steals the combat system, and utilizes it in a better sPvP system. When that happens GW2 is dead.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @VALARMORGHULIS.9173 said:

    @Kaozkrayken.9570 said:
    The game is dying because ArenaNet is not adapting. They want to keep everything the way it is because it's worked in the past and they will pay for it in one or two years time.

    By then, this game will be dead.

    I do agree with what you're saying about 5 man queues and I think it would be healthy for the pvp community. It would bring back pvp guilds because people would be looking for 4 other people to queue with making the population a bit more livelier.

    However, I don't think it's enough to keep the game alive. They need to stop clinging on to "what is" and start focusing on "what can be" if they want to be a successful company in the future.

    My original post mentioned that it’s a matter of time until someone steals the combat system, and utilizes it in a better sPvP system. When that happens GW2 is dead.

    This^ I'm sry but if eso or any other mmo had the gw2 combat mechanics this game would be so desolate

  • Zelulose.8695Zelulose.8695 Member ✭✭
    edited July 18, 2019

    They need to drop all stats on an excel sheet/ program and create a standard damage per second limit, evading limit, and healing per second limit in place. Then they need to balance around that standard regardless of the class when they find proof the class has exceed the limits. That is all they have to do.

  • @Zelulose.8695 said:
    They need to drop all stats on an excel sheet/ program and create a standard damage per second limit, evading limit, and healing per second limit in place. Then they need to balance around that standard regardless of the class when they find proof the class has exceed the limits. That is all they have to do.

    Has nothing to do w/ the OP.

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 19, 2019

    Honestly, just suggest a better game at this point. This one won't be changed in any meaningful way. Also, you aren't really addressing any of the fundamental gameplay issues which plague the very core of GW2. Trying to bandaid over such critical failures via matchmaking isn't probably going to produce much but a lukewarm impact on the kind of playerbase which still clings to this rotting corpse of a game.

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