Scourges Sand Savant needs to be reworked. — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Scourges Sand Savant needs to be reworked.

Demon Puppet.6873Demon Puppet.6873 Member ✭✭
edited July 18, 2019 in Necromancer

300 radius 10 target cap is way too strong. It makes Core Necro and Reaper completely obsolete. Taking away this would force every Scourge in WvW to learn how to use triple shade and make the other 2 grandmaster traits actually useful. They are both strong but in comparison to flat out hitting 10 players in such a big radius they fall flat.

My suggestion is to rework Sand Savant to do something such as "Any barrier left over on allies turns into healing" So if you gave an ally 6k barrier and it does not get damaged away it now turns into health. This suggestion is something realistic and in the theme of the Scourge especially since the first two top row Scourge traits have to do with Barrier. This change would not take along time to create since Sanctuary Runes are already in the game and do a similar effect. This would also make WvW fights less chaotic.
Just my suggestion after having over 4k hours on Scourge :)

<1

Comments

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2019

    I was led to believe that, overall, Sand Savant is DPS loss because otherwise you could stack all 3 shades on the same target?

    I use Sand Savant simply because I greatly dislike ground target reticules, and having to manage more than 1 would have been a deal breaker for me and the spec.

    EDIT: in any case, isn't this more of a WvW issue with regards to Scourge being Power? A PvE Condi Scourge would be taking Demonic Lore, no?

  • Demon Puppet.6873Demon Puppet.6873 Member ✭✭
    edited July 18, 2019

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    I was led to believe that, overall, Sand Savant is DPS loss because otherwise you could stack all 3 shades on the same target?

    I use Sand Savant simply because I greatly dislike ground target reticules, and having to manage more than 1 would have been a deal breaker for me and the spec.

    You would think that but how quickly you need to cast certain abilities + movement it ends up being a huge dps loss. More so because SS makes the area you personally affect also be 300 radius. PvE would obviously be a different story. But the time it takes to casting each shade you will be very far behind. Unless the enemies you are fighting are just standing still.

    EDIT: But how easily you can hit 10 players is actually why the GvG scene puts a cap on how many Scourges are allowed in a 15 man comp.

  • just so people understand, tool tip says "targets affected 5" but you have to remember that your f1-f5 abilities on scourge pulses from your character, hence 10 target cap.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2019

    o.o;; scourge hit like pew 1 second pew 1 second pew. sometimes ppl miss that the thing that actually does damage is the rev hammer 2 and weaver meteors. if you allow scourge to not use sand savant, we can actually spam f1 more and get more damage done in the process.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Demon Puppet.6873 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    I was led to believe that, overall, Sand Savant is DPS loss because otherwise you could stack all 3 shades on the same target?

    I use Sand Savant simply because I greatly dislike ground target reticules, and having to manage more than 1 would have been a deal breaker for me and the spec.

    You would think that but how quickly you need to cast certain abilities + movement it ends up being a huge dps loss. More so because SS makes the area you personally affect also be 300 radius. PvE would obviously be a different story. But the time it takes to casting each shade you will be very far behind. Unless the enemies you are fighting are just standing still.

    EDIT: But how easily you can hit 10 players is actually why the GvG scene puts a cap on how many Scourges are allowed in a 15 man comp.

    Fair enough. But I disagree with the notion that this one GM trait makes Reaper or Core obsolete. Well, if you're playing core, you're hardcore Necro anyways, so skill will trump everything else, but I see Reaper plenty of the time in WvW, OW and PvE.

    The radius of the shade makes it more of problem in WvW, but is it not then offset by the 100% increase in cooldown? (one of the reasons I hate playing Scourge in WvW)

  • @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Demon Puppet.6873 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    I was led to believe that, overall, Sand Savant is DPS loss because otherwise you could stack all 3 shades on the same target?

    I use Sand Savant simply because I greatly dislike ground target reticules, and having to manage more than 1 would have been a deal breaker for me and the spec.

    You would think that but how quickly you need to cast certain abilities + movement it ends up being a huge dps loss. More so because SS makes the area you personally affect also be 300 radius. PvE would obviously be a different story. But the time it takes to casting each shade you will be very far behind. Unless the enemies you are fighting are just standing still.

    EDIT: But how easily you can hit 10 players is actually why the GvG scene puts a cap on how many Scourges are allowed in a 15 man comp.

    Fair enough. But I disagree with the notion that this one GM trait makes Reaper or Core obsolete. Well, if you're playing core, you're hardcore Necro anyways, so skill will trump everything else, but I see Reaper plenty of the time in WvW, OW and PvE.

    The radius of the shade makes it more of problem in WvW, but is it not then offset by the 100% increase in cooldown? (one of the reasons I hate playing Scourge in WvW)

    Scourges AoE radius atm is the biggest problem with WvW. I ONLY play Scourge and I will tell you that Core necro and reaper are both obsolete in Fight-guild / GvG comps. The Cool down increase helped some but not enough. Stealthing up pushing on a group, place your shade on their left or right flank then pressing F2-F5 is way too much damage affecting too many people. This change would make the scourges only hit 6 players in this scenario. They can potentially hit 12 if they cast all the shades but that takes precious time that you wont have in these types of fights.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Demon Puppet.6873 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Demon Puppet.6873 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    I was led to believe that, overall, Sand Savant is DPS loss because otherwise you could stack all 3 shades on the same target?

    I use Sand Savant simply because I greatly dislike ground target reticules, and having to manage more than 1 would have been a deal breaker for me and the spec.

    You would think that but how quickly you need to cast certain abilities + movement it ends up being a huge dps loss. More so because SS makes the area you personally affect also be 300 radius. PvE would obviously be a different story. But the time it takes to casting each shade you will be very far behind. Unless the enemies you are fighting are just standing still.

    EDIT: But how easily you can hit 10 players is actually why the GvG scene puts a cap on how many Scourges are allowed in a 15 man comp.

    Fair enough. But I disagree with the notion that this one GM trait makes Reaper or Core obsolete. Well, if you're playing core, you're hardcore Necro anyways, so skill will trump everything else, but I see Reaper plenty of the time in WvW, OW and PvE.

    The radius of the shade makes it more of problem in WvW, but is it not then offset by the 100% increase in cooldown? (one of the reasons I hate playing Scourge in WvW)

    Scourges AoE radius atm is the biggest problem with WvW. I ONLY play Scourge and I will tell you that Core necro and reaper are both obsolete in Fight-guild / GvG comps. The Cool down increase helped some but not enough. Stealthing up pushing on a group, place your shade on their left or right flank then pressing F2-F5 is way too much damage affecting too many people. This change would make the scourges only hit 6 players in this scenario. They can potentially hit 12 if they cast all the shades but that takes precious time that you wont have in these types of fights.

    Obsolete. hm. so is...
    Core guard, dh
    Mirage, core mesmer
    Holo, core engi
    Ranger, druid, soulbeast
    Core rev, renegade
    Core warr, berserker
    Core ele (weaver is meta), support temp (who would pick support temp over scrapper or FB, on a GvG? But it has more uses than other classes)
    core thief, deadeye

    Whats your point? Every expac brings more powercreep, which is what keeps the company running (sales).

  • @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Demon Puppet.6873 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Demon Puppet.6873 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    I was led to believe that, overall, Sand Savant is DPS loss because otherwise you could stack all 3 shades on the same target?

    I use Sand Savant simply because I greatly dislike ground target reticules, and having to manage more than 1 would have been a deal breaker for me and the spec.

    You would think that but how quickly you need to cast certain abilities + movement it ends up being a huge dps loss. More so because SS makes the area you personally affect also be 300 radius. PvE would obviously be a different story. But the time it takes to casting each shade you will be very far behind. Unless the enemies you are fighting are just standing still.

    EDIT: But how easily you can hit 10 players is actually why the GvG scene puts a cap on how many Scourges are allowed in a 15 man comp.

    Fair enough. But I disagree with the notion that this one GM trait makes Reaper or Core obsolete. Well, if you're playing core, you're hardcore Necro anyways, so skill will trump everything else, but I see Reaper plenty of the time in WvW, OW and PvE.

    The radius of the shade makes it more of problem in WvW, but is it not then offset by the 100% increase in cooldown? (one of the reasons I hate playing Scourge in WvW)

    Scourges AoE radius atm is the biggest problem with WvW. I ONLY play Scourge and I will tell you that Core necro and reaper are both obsolete in Fight-guild / GvG comps. The Cool down increase helped some but not enough. Stealthing up pushing on a group, place your shade on their left or right flank then pressing F2-F5 is way too much damage affecting too many people. This change would make the scourges only hit 6 players in this scenario. They can potentially hit 12 if they cast all the shades but that takes precious time that you wont have in these types of fights.

    Obsolete. hm. so is...
    Core guard, dh
    Mirage, core mesmer
    Holo, core engi
    Ranger, druid, soulbeast
    Core rev, renegade
    Core warr, berserker
    Core ele (weaver is meta), support temp (who would pick support temp over scrapper or FB, on a GvG? But it has more uses than other classes)
    core thief, deadeye

    Whats your point? Every expac brings more powercreep, which is what keeps the company running (sales).

    None of those classes Elite specs are causing as much damage as the Scourges. On top of that why would you not nerf it then? How does core Rev or any other core class being obsolete affect my point? Because the point is if you do nerf Sand Savant Reaper/core necro will immediately become more viable.. So why would this not be done?
    Their last few patches that stated they are trying to make core and older elite specs more viable for play hints the buffs to everything. But no matter how many buffs you give Core Necro or Reaper they will be out shined due to this trait. Which is why it needs to be reworked.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Demon Puppet.6873 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Demon Puppet.6873 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Demon Puppet.6873 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    I was led to believe that, overall, Sand Savant is DPS loss because otherwise you could stack all 3 shades on the same target?

    I use Sand Savant simply because I greatly dislike ground target reticules, and having to manage more than 1 would have been a deal breaker for me and the spec.

    You would think that but how quickly you need to cast certain abilities + movement it ends up being a huge dps loss. More so because SS makes the area you personally affect also be 300 radius. PvE would obviously be a different story. But the time it takes to casting each shade you will be very far behind. Unless the enemies you are fighting are just standing still.

    EDIT: But how easily you can hit 10 players is actually why the GvG scene puts a cap on how many Scourges are allowed in a 15 man comp.

    Fair enough. But I disagree with the notion that this one GM trait makes Reaper or Core obsolete. Well, if you're playing core, you're hardcore Necro anyways, so skill will trump everything else, but I see Reaper plenty of the time in WvW, OW and PvE.

    The radius of the shade makes it more of problem in WvW, but is it not then offset by the 100% increase in cooldown? (one of the reasons I hate playing Scourge in WvW)

    Scourges AoE radius atm is the biggest problem with WvW. I ONLY play Scourge and I will tell you that Core necro and reaper are both obsolete in Fight-guild / GvG comps. The Cool down increase helped some but not enough. Stealthing up pushing on a group, place your shade on their left or right flank then pressing F2-F5 is way too much damage affecting too many people. This change would make the scourges only hit 6 players in this scenario. They can potentially hit 12 if they cast all the shades but that takes precious time that you wont have in these types of fights.

    Obsolete. hm. so is...
    Core guard, dh
    Mirage, core mesmer
    Holo, core engi
    Ranger, druid, soulbeast
    Core rev, renegade
    Core warr, berserker
    Core ele (weaver is meta), support temp (who would pick support temp over scrapper or FB, on a GvG? But it has more uses than other classes)
    core thief, deadeye

    Whats your point? Every expac brings more powercreep, which is what keeps the company running (sales).

    None of those classes Elite specs are causing as much damage as the Scourges. On top of that why would you not nerf it then? How does core Rev or any other core class being obsolete affect my point? Because the point is if you do nerf Sand Savant Reaper/core necro will immediately become more viable.. So why would this not be done?
    Their last few patches that stated they are trying to make core and older elite specs more viable for play hints the buffs to everything. But no matter how many buffs you give Core Necro or Reaper they will be out shined due to this trait. Which is why it needs to be reworked.

    Weaver causes more damage than Scourge, for one. And why is damage a factor for anything? Each class has its use, I mean minstrel FB certainly will not be popular cause of dps, will it? Scourge brings mass corrupts, mainly stab and protection, so dps classes (herald and weaver, to a much lesser extent scourge) can kill the zerg.

  • Djamonja.6453Djamonja.6453 Member ✭✭✭

    Reaper does more damage than scourge in the types of fights you are talking about, they just don't strip boons as well.

  • SlateSloan.3654SlateSloan.3654 Member ✭✭✭

    @Djamonja.6453 said:
    Reaper does more damage than scourge in the types of fights you are talking about, they just don't strip boons as well.

    this. if you are only on scourge because the dps your squad commander will by now have asked you where your corrupts are at.
    even if scourges do less dps than now they will be first choice in all necro classes cause the boon rip.

    if youre good on reaper surviving in frontline you will always be an option because you will deliver much higher dps than scourges.

    most dps comes in general from herald or weaver. specially coordinated face hammer spike can insta downstate 5 people or so as only thing that helps against it is dodge somehow in a moment of super reaction time.

    And there is only one thing we say to Death: 'not today'.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @God.2708 said:
    -This is all on a class that was intended to 'support' and it still does support a non-negligible amount.

    Technically Herald is supposed to be a support spec as well, but as you've mentioned hammer rev a few times, you get what I mean. Maybe ANET means something different than we do when they say 'support' :wink:

    Here is the thing though: if they reduce the target cap, knowing ANET, they will just increase the damage each of the targets receive, so are we any further ahead? Additionally, in a tight GvG setting, the issue isn't a scourge, but multiple scourges, meaning a single player may be getting hit by multiple shades at the same time.

    As someone who pugs regularly, it's interesting to see your frontline just melt when facing off a tight squad / guild.

    You can't drastically reduce the damage, really, as a Scourge sometimes has to 1v1 like anyone else.
    You can reduce the target cap, but that really only solves the problem of facing ONE scourge. How is that helpful vs a squad running 10 of them?
    The OP is talking about the radius of the shade with Sand Savant, which makes sense to me. But again, that's against ONE scourge. Does it matter if the shades are smaller in radius when you have 10 of them landing on your frontline? (maybe it does, dunno)

    I'm not arguing against it or anything, just trying to see how any of these will make a major impact. ANET's "big" nerf was to gut Dhuumfire, which led to everyone dropping Cele Scourge for Zerk Scourge - more squishy but more bursty - so clearly they are struggling with a solution.

    or...they are content with how Scourge currently operates.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2019

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @God.2708 said:
    -This is all on a class that was intended to 'support' and it still does support a non-negligible amount.

    Technically Herald is supposed to be a support spec as well, but as you've mentioned hammer rev a few times, you get what I mean. Maybe ANET means something different than we do when they say 'support' :wink:

    Here is the thing though: if they reduce the target cap, knowing ANET, they will just increase the damage each of the targets receive, so are we any further ahead? Additionally, in a tight GvG setting, the issue isn't a scourge, but multiple scourges, meaning a single player may be getting hit by multiple shades at the same time.

    As someone who pugs regularly, it's interesting to see your frontline just melt when facing off a tight squad / guild.

    You can't drastically reduce the damage, really, as a Scourge sometimes has to 1v1 like anyone else.
    You can reduce the target cap, but that really only solves the problem of facing ONE scourge. How is that helpful vs a squad running 10 of them?
    The OP is talking about the radius of the shade with Sand Savant, which makes sense to me. But again, that's against ONE scourge. Does it matter if the shades are smaller in radius when you have 10 of them landing on your frontline? (maybe it does, dunno)

    I'm not arguing against it or anything, just trying to see how any of these will make a major impact. ANET's "big" nerf was to gut Dhuumfire, which led to everyone dropping Cele Scourge for Zerk Scourge - more squishy but more bursty - so clearly they are struggling with a solution.

    or...they are content with how Scourge currently operates.

    i play support builds on rev .. whats the issue?

    Scourge barrier mechanics and shades are weird..for me they always felt weird and very low effort ment for stacking.
    start reducing radios on very spammy aoe classes could be a good thing imo.

  • geist.4126geist.4126 Member ✭✭✭

    Playing Scourge and knowing stuff about Scourge isn't exactly the same it seems.

  • Ubi.4136Ubi.4136 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Scourge is 2 to 2.5k dmg hits on 10 targets, and there are 20 of them on tag.
    It's not the only thing broken in wvw, but it is indeed broken. The problem is the design of the spec, so it doesn't appear there is any way to truly balance it. It will either be broken or useless. Anet wants the ktrains to continue, so it will be broken until the next elite spec (if we ever get one).

    Lost in the Maguuma (TC)
    For the geographically challenged, yes, Tarnished Coast is located IN the Maguuma Jungle.

  • googel.3278googel.3278 Member ✭✭✭

    give anet feedback, they do the opposite instead of fixing, it has been since they released the game. anet pls gib more skinz

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    the main reason scourge is as strong as he is is because the current meta relies heavily on boons which scourge actively counters

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    You can't drastically reduce the damage, really, as a Scourge sometimes has to 1v1 like anyone else.
    You can reduce the target cap, but that really only solves the problem of facing ONE scourge. How is that helpful vs a squad running 10 of them?

    Of course you can reduce the target cap. The entire issue isn't the scourges damage. It's the fact they can hit more people than anyone else layered into the other benefits (support, boon stripping, etc). This vastly improves the odds of your spike focusing and downing players, and applies way more pressure on a squad when the squad is having to heal them 5 people at a time. You are burning twice the healing/condi clearing CDs compared to your other DPS classes. If I am facing 10 scourges I would much rather them be hitting 60 people on a bomb rather than 100. That means my 25 man squad is taking 2 hits on average when spiked instead of 4.

    Imagine eles meteor shower hitting 5 people per rock instead of 3 with a trait. Do you think there'd be an elementalist alive that would take something else in any situation that isn't a 1v1?

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 19, 2019

    I've said it before and I'll say it again. The Scourge was designed to be a 900-range type of build but with the 300yd spread it works like a 1200-range build. That is what has been broken from the get-go. That is also what I would have adressed on it before this donkey of a balance patch we just had. Now I'm not really sure what to think. However, up until now that has been the obvious balance issue and has broken what otherwise could have been a decent scenario for meta where true 1200-tactics and melee tactics would have been in more of a balance to the pirate-shade meta we've seen.

    Other than that, I generally share your plights with the trait, I just think for shades it would have been more effectful to adress its fit-all-sizes application than all the other goodies that are loaded into them. It wouldn't bother too much that shades were powerful if they could be played around and face more diverse sets of risk. Now they just counter everything and have no paper to their rock-scissors. WoD was always the skill that needed a radius decrement but Anet unsurprisingly decided to go their own stubborn, wheel-reinventive and lesser way with that too.

    They've had this ridiculous defiance- or pride thing going on for a while now, that when they finally adress something that the community has been pointing out, they refuse to do it in any similarity of ways that the community has suggested. That's how we see the balance patches loaded with changes no one asked for or fixes to things that are not broken, while festering common knowledge issues like shades are left unadressed. Things that get adressed often are that in ways that isn't rooted in any form of experience or player reality. Like the whole Scrapper debacle with "it is now a tank" but hinges entirely on a power version of the Necro's old parasitic contagion that no one ever used to tank anything. It came with a receipt that made people sceptical even before implementation. Yeah, donkey patch.

  • Djamonja.6453Djamonja.6453 Member ✭✭✭

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:
    I've said it before and I'll say it again. The Scourge was designed to be a 900-range type of build but with the 300yd spread it works like a 1200-range build.

    That's fine, but if it's a 1200 range build then it's 5 targets not 10 targets like this thread is about.

  • Methuselah.4376Methuselah.4376 Member ✭✭✭

    Yes, let's remove Sand Savant because it's a good trait to use for WvW. Nevermind that in other game modes, unless you're running healer, it's pretty much useless. Yes let's do that, because someone died to it in WvW a couple of times, nevermind it is one of the most telegraphed means of attacks in game whereas Meteor Shower is super easy to miss while you're in a 20 vs 20 fight. While we're on it, let's remove stealth from the game, and clones, and invulnerability.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Methuselah.4376 said:
    Yes, let's remove Sand Savant because it's a good trait to use for WvW. Nevermind that in other game modes, unless you're running healer, it's pretty much useless. Yes let's do that, because someone died to it in WvW a couple of times, nevermind it is one of the most telegraphed means of attacks in game whereas Meteor Shower is super easy to miss while you're in a 20 vs 20 fight. While we're on it, let's remove stealth from the game, and clones, and invulnerability.

    Wasn't there a thread "remove everything, give everyone a stick"?
    XD

  • Lahmia.2193Lahmia.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 19, 2019

    I mean, I wouldn't mind (less so than other nerfs I have hated) if they reduced the range/target cap but the single shade is the way I prefer to play Scourge. I'd rather they just made one shade baseline instead of having three shades to play with, then you can remake Sand Savant.

    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death."

  • Methuselah.4376Methuselah.4376 Member ✭✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Methuselah.4376 said:
    Yes, let's remove Sand Savant because it's a good trait to use for WvW. Nevermind that in other game modes, unless you're running healer, it's pretty much useless. Yes let's do that, because someone died to it in WvW a couple of times, nevermind it is one of the most telegraphed means of attacks in game whereas Meteor Shower is super easy to miss while you're in a 20 vs 20 fight. While we're on it, let's remove stealth from the game, and clones, and invulnerability.

    Wasn't there a thread "remove everything, give everyone a stick"?
    XD

    Ye I think so XD But this just proves the point that no matter what happens, there will always be people complaining. When Reaper got CLEAR and SIGNIFICANT buffs, this forum was full of people moaning how it's a hidden nerf and how Reaper is now unplayable and how their build is ruined so the game is garbage now. You just can't win.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @God.2708 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    You can't drastically reduce the damage, really, as a Scourge sometimes has to 1v1 like anyone else.
    You can reduce the target cap, but that really only solves the problem of facing ONE scourge. How is that helpful vs a squad running 10 of them?

    Of course you can reduce the target cap. The entire issue isn't the scourges damage. It's the fact they can hit more people than anyone else layered into the other benefits (support, boon stripping, etc). This vastly improves the odds of your spike focusing and downing players, and applies way more pressure on a squad when the squad is having to heal them 5 people at a time. You are burning twice the healing/condi clearing CDs compared to your other DPS classes. If I am facing 10 scourges I would much rather them be hitting 60 people on a bomb rather than 100. That means my 25 man squad is taking 2 hits on average when spiked instead of 4.

    Imagine eles meteor shower hitting 5 people per rock instead of 3 with a trait. Do you think there'd be an elementalist alive that would take something else in any situation that isn't a 1v1?

    Your math works. I guess what I am wondering though, is exactly how many players are getting hit by a typical bomb? Like in the example we are discussing, 10 scourges bombing the same spot, you say it's better then that only 60 players are being hit instead of 100. But we both know you don't have 100 players on your side, and we also know that not every member of your squad is being hit by this bomb.

    So if we use a typical 50 v 50 engagement, and 10 scourges land their bomb in the same spot, they would hit..what...15 players? 20? Do you see my point? Even if we restrict the target cap (again, not really arguing against it), nothing would change. Those 10 scourges had the potential of hitting 60 players instead of 100, but still hit the same 15/20 opponents.

    This is on the high end of course, on the smaller scale, the change would be far more noticeable. If you're facing off against a group that only has 2 necros, currently they could still collectively hit 20 of your players.

    I hope what I'm thinking is getting across here. I don't disagree with the idea, I just don't think this is going to be a solution that works; I refer again to the last time ANET decided to nerf Scourge by gutting Dhuumfire...that saw a drop in the Scourge population for about, what, a week? So if reducing the target cap makes sense, it has to be accompanied by something else, and I have no clue what that should be. We can't destroy the spec (as much as players might like that idea) but what can you fix when the issue is the design?

    My perspective is probably very different from many of you, as I only started after PoF, so the Scourge meta is all I've known. When I first started WvW it drove me crazy (for lulz I dug up a post I made about it: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/33041/what-is-happening-to-me-in-wvw) as at the time I didn't have any class experience other than Guardian or Ranger, but these days I'm just used to it. I was kind of bummed that our last event wasn't an actual Core only spec event, as I wanted to see what a squad would do without Scourge, FB, etc. But /shrug.

  • I do not think nerfing the hit cap of Scourge will solve every issue. But right now Scourge is hitting way too many people with ease. You say its so easy to see the skill compared to Eles meteor. But you are forgetting that in a Fight-Guild type scenario Weaver will not even be usedand if they do they WILL see the Meteor will get out of it ASAP. Plus Meteor isnt stripping boons causing CC's and lethal condis. Also the big Shade can just be placed again immediately. There is a reason the GvG scene restricts comps to 4 scourges per comp. No other class is restricted. It is because of Sand Savant. It is used too quickly hitting too many players. I ONLY play Scourge/Necro I love this class to death. But I see an issue with it. This would reduce how crazy impact-full it is with such ease. So I apologize if my talk of a balance scares you or offends you.

    Only other solution along with this trait nerf idea is to reduce the power scaling of Shade skills by 15-25%.

  • Kuulpb.5412Kuulpb.5412 Member ✭✭✭

    @Demon Puppet.6873 said:
    300 radius 10 target cap is way too strong. It makes Core Necro and Reaper completely obsolete. Taking away this would force every Scourge in WvW to learn how to use triple shade and make the other 2 grandmaster traits actually useful. They are both strong but in comparison to flat out hitting 10 players in such a big radius they fall flat.

    My suggestion is to rework Sand Savant to do something such as "Any barrier left over on allies turns into healing" So if you gave an ally 6k barrier and it does not get damaged away it now turns into health. This suggestion is something realistic and in the theme of the Scourge especially since the first two top row Scourge traits have to do with Barrier. This change would not take along time to create since Sanctuary Runes are already in the game and do a similar effect. This would also make WvW fights less chaotic.
    Just my suggestion after having over 4k hours on Scourge :)

    Big issue with any changes - in pvp/wvw the cooldown is INCREASED and in pve it's decreased, so you actually get less Uptime on shades than if you don't take the trait, Plus it only effects 5 things not 10 unless you mean 5 ally 5 enemy.

  • Kuulpb.5412Kuulpb.5412 Member ✭✭✭

    @Demon Puppet.6873 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Demon Puppet.6873 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    I was led to believe that, overall, Sand Savant is DPS loss because otherwise you could stack all 3 shades on the same target?

    I use Sand Savant simply because I greatly dislike ground target reticules, and having to manage more than 1 would have been a deal breaker for me and the spec.

    You would think that but how quickly you need to cast certain abilities + movement it ends up being a huge dps loss. More so because SS makes the area you personally affect also be 300 radius. PvE would obviously be a different story. But the time it takes to casting each shade you will be very far behind. Unless the enemies you are fighting are just standing still.

    EDIT: But how easily you can hit 10 players is actually why the GvG scene puts a cap on how many Scourges are allowed in a 15 man comp.

    Fair enough. But I disagree with the notion that this one GM trait makes Reaper or Core obsolete. Well, if you're playing core, you're hardcore Necro anyways, so skill will trump everything else, but I see Reaper plenty of the time in WvW, OW and PvE.

    The radius of the shade makes it more of problem in WvW, but is it not then offset by the 100% increase in cooldown? (one of the reasons I hate playing Scourge in WvW)

    Scourges AoE radius atm is the biggest problem with WvW. I ONLY play Scourge and I will tell you that Core necro and reaper are both obsolete in Fight-guild / GvG comps. The Cool down increase helped some but not enough. Stealthing up pushing on a group, place your shade on their left or right flank then pressing F2-F5 is way too much damage affecting too many people. This change would make the scourges only hit 6 players in this scenario. They can potentially hit 12 if they cast all the shades but that takes precious time that you wont have in these types of fights.

    So you mean If you are In a team where scourge shines because it is a support/damage hybrid it is OP?

  • Tom Hsiao.9705Tom Hsiao.9705 Member ✭✭✭

    Power reaper is sickening not sure what you’re talking about lol!!! You’re doing it wrong if you think reaper is any weaker than scourge.
    Scourge doesn’t need more nerfing I have seen many reaper pwning in PvP and kill scourge 1 on 1.
    Maybe you’re living in your fantasy pve world and feels strong lol~~~ go try 1 vs 1 against good reaper on your 4K hr scourge and repost your thoughts. ;)

    Don’t just argue for the sake of arguing, I don’t have time for trolls!

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tom Hsiao.9705 said:
    Power reaper is sickening not sure what you’re talking about lol!!! You’re doing it wrong if you think reaper is any weaker than scourge.
    Scourge doesn’t need more nerfing I have seen many reaper pwning in PvP and kill scourge 1 on 1.
    Maybe you’re living in your fantasy pve world and feels strong lol~~~ go try 1 vs 1 against good reaper on your 4K hr scourge and repost your thoughts. ;)

    Sorry but, what rank are you?

    Necro isn't a 1v1 char.
    Necro is a teamfighter. If you kill one in a 1v1. Whatever, it doesn't show anything.

    If played well, you can easily kill scourge or reaper,
    Kill scourge with reaper and kill reaper with scourge.

    Reaper is weaker than scourge in some regards:
    -no healing received in shroud
    -only one big burst
    -not much sustained dmg
    -less boon corrupts

    Reaper pros:
    -one big burst
    -one big hard cc
    Can get unlockable attacks (but isn't used in meta builds)
    -slightly better mobility than scourge

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2019

    Imo the issue is how there’s way to much people stack them in hope of no effort wins due how game overloaded with aoe expecially from scourges.

    Altough scrounges could have some better trade off besides low mobility....

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    Imo the issue is how there’s way to much people stack them in hope of no effort wins due how game overloaded with aoe expecially from scourges.

    Altough scrounges could have some better trade off besides low mobility....

    Better tradeoffs?
    -low mobility
    -bad self sustain
    -weak to ranged attacks
    -weak to cc
    -no evade frames
    -no invulns

    Isn't that more than enough?
    That's way more than any other class has

  • Tom Hsiao.9705Tom Hsiao.9705 Member ✭✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Tom Hsiao.9705 said:
    Power reaper is sickening not sure what you’re talking about lol!!! You’re doing it wrong if you think reaper is any weaker than scourge.
    Scourge doesn’t need more nerfing I have seen many reaper pwning in PvP and kill scourge 1 on 1.
    Maybe you’re living in your fantasy pve world and feels strong lol~~~ go try 1 vs 1 against good reaper on your 4K hr scourge and repost your thoughts. ;)

    Sorry but, what rank are you?

    Necro isn't a 1v1 char.
    Necro is a teamfighter. If you kill one in a 1v1. Whatever, it doesn't show anything.

    If played well, you can easily kill scourge or reaper,
    Kill scourge with reaper and kill reaper with scourge.

    Reaper is weaker than scourge in some regards:
    -no healing received in shroud
    -only one big burst
    -not much sustained dmg
    -less boon corrupts

    Reaper pros:
    -one big burst
    -one big hard cc
    Can get unlockable attacks (but isn't used in meta builds)
    -slightly better mobility than scourge

    I’m platinum rank so maybe you’re speaking higher rank?? Or perhaps lower rank??
    But as platinum player (and I generally rank with my necro)
    I do reaper and scourge and I find them equally strong both have their own strength. I wouldn’t say one is stronger than other.
    And I can kill people 1 vs 1 on scourge and my reaper too so saying scourge is only team player just shows your lack of knowledge on the class or your ability to PvP...

    Don’t just argue for the sake of arguing, I don’t have time for trolls!

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2019

    A> @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    Imo the issue is how there’s way to much people stack them in hope of no effort wins due how game overloaded with aoe expecially from scourges.

    Altough scrounges could have some better trade off besides low mobility....

    Better tradeoffs?
    -low mobility
    -bad self sustain
    -weak to ranged attacks
    -weak to cc
    -no evade frames
    -no invulns

    Isn't that more than enough?
    That's way more than any other class has

    Aren’t some of those actually available in optional traits or utilities??

    I would not say scourge has bad sustain..

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I still think that the issue player have with the scourge isn't sand savant but the fact that the shade package is an all purpose package instead of being a specialized package. In essence, shade skills do everything at the same time and it's toxic.

    The scourge's shades' purpose is to increase the area covered by the scourge's ability and they do it well. It's meaningless to complain about sand savant because if it didn't exist you'd still complain for the same underlying reason: the coverage of the scourge.

    What can be complained about is the fairness of the trade-off. The necromancer trade it's shroud for the shade mechanism however it's difficult to say that there is any trade-off for the extended coverage that shades provide. In fact, shade skills being all purpose instant skills improve a lot the ease and efficacity with which you can spend life force as a necromancer.

    In my opinion there is a need to recenter the shade skills (F2-F5) toward support by shaving off the damage loaded into them. F2 to F5 shouldn't proc F1 effect on use and F5 should be geared toward support instead of damage. 2 change to fix shade skills:

    • F1 no longer proc on other F skills
    • F5 now grant barrier, pulse weakness (1-2s) and you can't be critically hit for the duration of the skill (damage and cripple all removed). Herald of sorrow give you the possibility to make it a damaging skill.
    • Dhuumfire no longer need it's ICD in scourge.
    • F5 no longer need an increased CD in PvP/WvW.
  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2019

    ^
    Like Soul Reaping providing both sustain and dps, Shades are multi-purpose.
    Similarly, Scourge was designed for both group support and boon-hate, and competitive modes definitely need boon-hate... a lot of it.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    A> @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    Imo the issue is how there’s way to much people stack them in hope of no effort wins due how game overloaded with aoe expecially from scourges.

    Altough scrounges could have some better trade off besides low mobility....

    Better tradeoffs?
    -low mobility
    -bad self sustain
    -weak to ranged attacks
    -weak to cc
    -no evade frames
    -no invulns

    Isn't that more than enough?
    That's way more than any other class has

    Aren’t some of those actually available in optional traits or utilities??

    I would not say scourge has bad sustain..

    Compared to other classes?
    You have to use bloodmagic in spvp (which sucks for dmg)
    And you still do not have as much sustain as other classes do without sacrificing that much dmg.

    But I don't think spvp is a good gamemode. Too many toxic kids, that aren't aware of the map or cannot play around certain classes.
    (Platin + is better but almost impossible to reach as solo necro player in my opinion)

    That's why I play wvw, where you are free in stat choices (which is the biggest flaw in spvp for me as a fan of theory crafting)
    And there necro is just a punching bag for any other class, unless you just play much better than your opponent.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Demon Puppet.6873 said:
    300 radius 10 target cap is way too strong. It makes Core Necro and Reaper completely obsolete.

    Better suggestion... Make core viable first ;) Once thats done then we can say scourge actually makes it obsolete... needs to first be viable
    Reaper is kind of viable at the moment but i don't specifically think scourge is better than it. Scourge does counter reaper only because it uses a ton of boon corrupt which can often completely screw a reaper over.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    Imo the issue is how there’s way to much people stack them in hope of no effort wins due how game overloaded with aoe expecially from scourges.

    Altough scrounges could have some better trade off besides low mobility....

    Better tradeoffs?
    -low mobility
    -bad self sustain
    -weak to ranged attacks
    -weak to cc
    -no evade frames
    -no invulns

    Isn't that more than enough?
    That's way more than any other class has

    Your idea of trade offs is all wrong
    Scourges trade off is that it no longer has a personal shroud in exchange for more zone control with its shade skills
    Reapers trade off is the loss of ranged pressure attacks for strong bursty melee cleaving attacks for increased life force cost.

    Necro has always been
    Low in mobility
    Unable to use invulns
    Limited in evade frames
    Been week to CC
    Bad in self sustain
    regardless of what elite spec you take.

    The things you listed are not really trade offs because they exists on all forms of the necromancer. If they always are there then its not a trade off. A trade off is getting somethings for the loss of somethings.

  • Ravezaar.4951Ravezaar.4951 Member ✭✭✭

    Like most PoF classes its broken, boring, and lack any skill requirement. Same goes for FB,Mirage,SB and Holo tbh. I think PoF Elites just did more harm then good for the game.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 11, 2019

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Demon Puppet.6873 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Demon Puppet.6873 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    I was led to believe that, overall, Sand Savant is DPS loss because otherwise you could stack all 3 shades on the same target?

    I use Sand Savant simply because I greatly dislike ground target reticules, and having to manage more than 1 would have been a deal breaker for me and the spec.

    You would think that but how quickly you need to cast certain abilities + movement it ends up being a huge dps loss. More so because SS makes the area you personally affect also be 300 radius. PvE would obviously be a different story. But the time it takes to casting each shade you will be very far behind. Unless the enemies you are fighting are just standing still.

    EDIT: But how easily you can hit 10 players is actually why the GvG scene puts a cap on how many Scourges are allowed in a 15 man comp.

    Fair enough. But I disagree with the notion that this one GM trait makes Reaper or Core obsolete. Well, if you're playing core, you're hardcore Necro anyways, so skill will trump everything else, but I see Reaper plenty of the time in WvW, OW and PvE.

    The radius of the shade makes it more of problem in WvW, but is it not then offset by the 100% increase in cooldown? (one of the reasons I hate playing Scourge in WvW)

    Scourges AoE radius atm is the biggest problem with WvW. I ONLY play Scourge and I will tell you that Core necro and reaper are both obsolete in Fight-guild / GvG comps. The Cool down increase helped some but not enough. Stealthing up pushing on a group, place your shade on their left or right flank then pressing F2-F5 is way too much damage affecting too many people. This change would make the scourges only hit 6 players in this scenario. They can potentially hit 12 if they cast all the shades but that takes precious time that you wont have in these types of fights.

    Obsolete. hm. so is...
    Core guard, dh
    Mirage, core mesmer
    Holo, core engi
    Ranger, druid, soulbeast
    Core rev, renegade
    Core warr, berserker
    Core ele (weaver is meta), support temp (who would pick support temp over scrapper or FB, on a GvG? But it has more uses than other classes)
    core thief, deadeye

    Whats your point? Every expac brings more powercreep, which is what keeps the company running (sales).

    Yet YoY sales numbers keep dropping pretty steadily since HoT.
    And Ironically, core thief is the strongest of all thief setups right now, and soulbeast is still very strong.
    PvE "metas" don't exist and is a heavily-misused word; it's optimization and numbers calculation and will swing per-patch depending on what is nerfed or buffed by numbers and numbers alone.

    The sell-powercreep formula isn't a winning one. When will people realize this?

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.
    Quit/Inactive. No, you can't have my stuff.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 11, 2019

    @Djamonja.6453 said:
    Reaper does more damage than scourge in the types of fights you are talking about, they just don't strip boons as well.

    reaper does strip more boons in bursts tho, just not over time.

    anyway I think the solution is to have the damage/ offense traits centered around the shade and the barrier/ support traits centered around the necro.

    Te lazla otstra.
    nerf list

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Demon Puppet.6873 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Demon Puppet.6873 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    I was led to believe that, overall, Sand Savant is DPS loss because otherwise you could stack all 3 shades on the same target?

    I use Sand Savant simply because I greatly dislike ground target reticules, and having to manage more than 1 would have been a deal breaker for me and the spec.

    You would think that but how quickly you need to cast certain abilities + movement it ends up being a huge dps loss. More so because SS makes the area you personally affect also be 300 radius. PvE would obviously be a different story. But the time it takes to casting each shade you will be very far behind. Unless the enemies you are fighting are just standing still.

    EDIT: But how easily you can hit 10 players is actually why the GvG scene puts a cap on how many Scourges are allowed in a 15 man comp.

    Fair enough. But I disagree with the notion that this one GM trait makes Reaper or Core obsolete. Well, if you're playing core, you're hardcore Necro anyways, so skill will trump everything else, but I see Reaper plenty of the time in WvW, OW and PvE.

    The radius of the shade makes it more of problem in WvW, but is it not then offset by the 100% increase in cooldown? (one of the reasons I hate playing Scourge in WvW)

    Scourges AoE radius atm is the biggest problem with WvW. I ONLY play Scourge and I will tell you that Core necro and reaper are both obsolete in Fight-guild / GvG comps. The Cool down increase helped some but not enough. Stealthing up pushing on a group, place your shade on their left or right flank then pressing F2-F5 is way too much damage affecting too many people. This change would make the scourges only hit 6 players in this scenario. They can potentially hit 12 if they cast all the shades but that takes precious time that you wont have in these types of fights.

    Obsolete. hm. so is...
    Core guard, dh
    Mirage, core mesmer
    Holo, core engi
    Ranger, druid, soulbeast
    Core rev, renegade
    Core warr, berserker
    Core ele (weaver is meta), support temp (who would pick support temp over scrapper or FB, on a GvG? But it has more uses than other classes)
    core thief, deadeye

    Whats your point? Every expac brings more powercreep, which is what keeps the company running (sales).

    Yet YoY sales numbers keep dropping pretty steadily since HoT.
    And Ironically, core thief is the strongest of all thief setups right now, and soulbeast is still very strong.
    PvE "metas" don't exist and is a heavily-misused word; it's optimization and numbers calculation and will swing per-patch depending on what is nerfed or buffed by numbers and numbers alone.

    The sell-powercreep formula isn't a winning one. When will people realize this?

    WvW is unplayable without PoF, cause pf elite specs and mount. Pve meta exists whether you like it or not, as chrono has been heavily nerfed and ppl turn to renegade/fb/scourge as support and damage more and more, weaver top dps, etc. Sure you can play anything, yet people want maximum efficiency. Since it is a numbers game, PoF deliver with its powercreep. Lastly, all mmorpgs' sales decline over time. It is natural, when no new content is released.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Demon Puppet.6873 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Demon Puppet.6873 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    I was led to believe that, overall, Sand Savant is DPS loss because otherwise you could stack all 3 shades on the same target?

    I use Sand Savant simply because I greatly dislike ground target reticules, and having to manage more than 1 would have been a deal breaker for me and the spec.

    You would think that but how quickly you need to cast certain abilities + movement it ends up being a huge dps loss. More so because SS makes the area you personally affect also be 300 radius. PvE would obviously be a different story. But the time it takes to casting each shade you will be very far behind. Unless the enemies you are fighting are just standing still.

    EDIT: But how easily you can hit 10 players is actually why the GvG scene puts a cap on how many Scourges are allowed in a 15 man comp.

    Fair enough. But I disagree with the notion that this one GM trait makes Reaper or Core obsolete. Well, if you're playing core, you're hardcore Necro anyways, so skill will trump everything else, but I see Reaper plenty of the time in WvW, OW and PvE.

    The radius of the shade makes it more of problem in WvW, but is it not then offset by the 100% increase in cooldown? (one of the reasons I hate playing Scourge in WvW)

    Scourges AoE radius atm is the biggest problem with WvW. I ONLY play Scourge and I will tell you that Core necro and reaper are both obsolete in Fight-guild / GvG comps. The Cool down increase helped some but not enough. Stealthing up pushing on a group, place your shade on their left or right flank then pressing F2-F5 is way too much damage affecting too many people. This change would make the scourges only hit 6 players in this scenario. They can potentially hit 12 if they cast all the shades but that takes precious time that you wont have in these types of fights.

    Obsolete. hm. so is...
    Core guard, dh
    Mirage, core mesmer
    Holo, core engi
    Ranger, druid, soulbeast
    Core rev, renegade
    Core warr, berserker
    Core ele (weaver is meta), support temp (who would pick support temp over scrapper or FB, on a GvG? But it has more uses than other classes)
    core thief, deadeye

    Whats your point? Every expac brings more powercreep, which is what keeps the company running (sales).

    Yet YoY sales numbers keep dropping pretty steadily since HoT.
    And Ironically, core thief is the strongest of all thief setups right now, and soulbeast is still very strong.
    PvE "metas" don't exist and is a heavily-misused word; it's optimization and numbers calculation and will swing per-patch depending on what is nerfed or buffed by numbers and numbers alone.

    The sell-powercreep formula isn't a winning one. When will people realize this?

    WvW is unplayable without PoF, cause pf elite specs and mount. Pve meta exists whether you like it or not, as chrono has been heavily nerfed and ppl turn to renegade/fb/scourge as support and damage more and more, weaver top dps, etc. Sure you can play anything, yet people want maximum efficiency. Since it is a numbers game, PoF deliver with its powercreep. Lastly, all mmorpgs' sales decline over time. It is natural, when no new content is released.

    Yeah. And people know this. Thus why I said "The sell-powercreep formula isn't a winning one."

    As far as PvE not having a meta... that's what I said. Look up what a metagame actually is defined as. There is no actual meta in PvE because the game-state is dependent entirely on optimizations and numerical derivations at the discretion of the game host with no player agency. Optimized PvE is a solvable problem. That's the opposite of what having a metagame entails.

    And further, this is solely enforced by the community, as the obsession with optimization extends to reducing time/increasing statistical reliability/ease of execution. All PvE can still be done by any combination of builds, and yet, we don't see it embraced. They could nerf all the classes to have the exact same optimal benchmarks, and people would still create optimizations welcoming/kicking specific classes and the likes for the sole reason some are harder to play and statistically likely to have lower numbers for that reason.

    PvE optimization is just a constant cat-and-mouse of patches and number-crunching in response to them. All of the nuance and differentiation between combat modes literally defies the point of even trying to balance, and is why the original idea of not having a composed PvE scene in the game was a good one from both a game design and player community health perspectives. The only way to achieve "balance" is through uniformity, which comes at the cost of diversity and the x-factor of "fun" from the most possible perspectives. Rock-Paper-Scissors is perfectly-balanced on paper, but not very entertaining for these reasons.

    With the PvP modes' balance being based almost entirely on the nuances of player-to-player interaction and the confines of mechanics presented--where factors like mobility, range, etc. are extremely important--the idea of an actual pursuit of "balanced gameplay" with tradeoffs and mechanical/systems differentiation simply makes sense.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.
    Quit/Inactive. No, you can't have my stuff.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2019

    I want to throw in my 2c The reason is because every class has every type of role (DPS/support/healer/Tank/offensive support) These are the main holy trinity of roles in the usual but balancing it is hell because some classes combine 2 or more elements of those roles.

    You cant have a class that is master dps and master offensive/defensive supports ala mesmers with chronomancers in the past with enough offensive and defensive supports combined with huge dps, its just unbalanced. I personally think they should make elite specs into the holy trinity and nerf them to make them fit that role in some way or another, while keeping them unique, and why not? we got a tree of skills and wow has a skill tree to make classes into dps or into tanks why not GW2? the reason i quit GW2 is because i hate being pigeon holed into a kitten job i don't want and being mediocre. Oh you want to play scourge? sorry you have to be support or nothing well gee wonder why people are quitting.

    Also i am waiting for a 3rd kitten separation of modes for WVW. There needs to be a total of 3 different modes separated its a lot of work for them but it will help in my opinion with the problems since people complain about scourges stacking and boon corrupting, well it isn't a problem in pve and i don't like pve getting nerfed because of pvp, and shouldn't.

    I think if we saw a third split maybe scourge could get some dps buffs for pve and not be forced into support or power. I'd love for scourge to go back into being condi bomber but the WVW mod will see huge complaints about it.

    I also think its understandable for people to want dps specs to be competitive. I do think that having the exact same dps doesn't have to be a thing. I will be ok as long as we get some other improvements in traits to survive in pve and maybe be a little more useful to the group with reaper, or if it stays selfish, then to fix the broken traits in death magic and others so necro has some sustain it can get from them and maybe offer something else to the group to be not entirely selfish.

    I keep wondering about the thing someone said which was something regarding the sustain abilities for necro being on weapons, because ele has sustain abilities on their weapon in water and earth element and it has no problem, so why can't necro have some too? why cant we have decent amount of sustain while sacrificing little dps? i mean its not fair eles in water trait get dps trait that helps them sustain and do dmg and necro is expected to go full glass with reaper.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Tom Hsiao.9705Tom Hsiao.9705 Member ✭✭✭

    @Axl.8924 said:
    I want to throw in my 2c The reason is because every class has every type of role (DPS/support/healer/Tank/offensive support) These are the main holy trinity of roles in the usual but balancing it is hell because some classes combine 2 or more elements of those roles.

    You cant have a class that is master dps and master offensive/defensive supports ala mesmers with chronomancers in the past with enough offensive and defensive supports combined with huge dps, its just unbalanced. I personally think they should make elite specs into the holy trinity and nerf them to make them fit that role in some way or another, while keeping them unique, and why not? we got a tree of skills and wow has a skill tree to make classes into dps or into tanks why not GW2? the reason i quit GW2 is because i hate being pigeon holed into a kitten job i don't want and being mediocre. Oh you want to play scourge? sorry you have to be support or nothing well gee wonder why people are quitting.

    Also i am waiting for a 3rd kitten separation of modes for WVW. There needs to be a total of 3 different modes separated its a lot of work for them but it will help in my opinion with the problems since people complain about scourges stacking and boon corrupting, well it isn't a problem in pve and i don't like pve getting nerfed because of pvp, and shouldn't.

    I think if we saw a third split maybe scourge could get some dps buffs for pve and not be forced into support or power. I'd love for scourge to go back into being condi bomber but the WVW mod will see huge complaints about it.

    I also think its understandable for people to want dps specs to be competitive. I do think that having the exact same dps doesn't have to be a thing. I will be ok as long as we get some other improvements in traits to survive in pve and maybe be a little more useful to the group with reaper, or if it stays selfish, then to fix the broken traits in death magic and others so necro has some sustain it can get from them and maybe offer something else to the group to be not entirely selfish.

    I keep wondering about the thing someone said which was something regarding the sustain abilities for necro being on weapons, because ele has sustain abilities on their weapon in water and earth element and it has no problem, so why can't necro have some too? why cant we have decent amount of sustain while sacrificing little dps? i mean its not fair eles in water trait get dps trait that helps them sustain and do dmg and necro is expected to go full glass with reaper.

    The beauty of gw2 is there is no trinity thing. You can be whatever you want and don’t need to rely on tank or healer...so why on earth they’d ruin it lol. If you want trinity you need to play something else like WOW Ff14 or whatever that’s out there

    Don’t just argue for the sake of arguing, I don’t have time for trolls!

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tom Hsiao.9705 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    I want to throw in my 2c The reason is because every class has every type of role (DPS/support/healer/Tank/offensive support) These are the main holy trinity of roles in the usual but balancing it is hell because some classes combine 2 or more elements of those roles.

    You cant have a class that is master dps and master offensive/defensive supports ala mesmers with chronomancers in the past with enough offensive and defensive supports combined with huge dps, its just unbalanced. I personally think they should make elite specs into the holy trinity and nerf them to make them fit that role in some way or another, while keeping them unique, and why not? we got a tree of skills and wow has a skill tree to make classes into dps or into tanks why not GW2? the reason i quit GW2 is because i hate being pigeon holed into a kitten job i don't want and being mediocre. Oh you want to play scourge? sorry you have to be support or nothing well gee wonder why people are quitting.

    Also i am waiting for a 3rd kitten separation of modes for WVW. There needs to be a total of 3 different modes separated its a lot of work for them but it will help in my opinion with the problems since people complain about scourges stacking and boon corrupting, well it isn't a problem in pve and i don't like pve getting nerfed because of pvp, and shouldn't.

    I think if we saw a third split maybe scourge could get some dps buffs for pve and not be forced into support or power. I'd love for scourge to go back into being condi bomber but the WVW mod will see huge complaints about it.

    I also think its understandable for people to want dps specs to be competitive. I do think that having the exact same dps doesn't have to be a thing. I will be ok as long as we get some other improvements in traits to survive in pve and maybe be a little more useful to the group with reaper, or if it stays selfish, then to fix the broken traits in death magic and others so necro has some sustain it can get from them and maybe offer something else to the group to be not entirely selfish.

    I keep wondering about the thing someone said which was something regarding the sustain abilities for necro being on weapons, because ele has sustain abilities on their weapon in water and earth element and it has no problem, so why can't necro have some too? why cant we have decent amount of sustain while sacrificing little dps? i mean its not fair eles in water trait get dps trait that helps them sustain and do dmg and necro is expected to go full glass with reaper.

    The beauty of gw2 is there is no trinity thing. You can be whatever you want and don’t need to rely on tank or healer...so why on earth they’d ruin it lol. If you want trinity you need to play something else like WOW Ff14 or whatever that’s out there

    That was true till they introduced druid.
    You will always have a tank, healer and DPS in harder content.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tom Hsiao.9705 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    I want to throw in my 2c The reason is because every class has every type of role (DPS/support/healer/Tank/offensive support) These are the main holy trinity of roles in the usual but balancing it is hell because some classes combine 2 or more elements of those roles.

    You cant have a class that is master dps and master offensive/defensive supports ala mesmers with chronomancers in the past with enough offensive and defensive supports combined with huge dps, its just unbalanced. I personally think they should make elite specs into the holy trinity and nerf them to make them fit that role in some way or another, while keeping them unique, and why not? we got a tree of skills and wow has a skill tree to make classes into dps or into tanks why not GW2? the reason i quit GW2 is because i hate being pigeon holed into a kitten job i don't want and being mediocre. Oh you want to play scourge? sorry you have to be support or nothing well gee wonder why people are quitting.

    Also i am waiting for a 3rd kitten separation of modes for WVW. There needs to be a total of 3 different modes separated its a lot of work for them but it will help in my opinion with the problems since people complain about scourges stacking and boon corrupting, well it isn't a problem in pve and i don't like pve getting nerfed because of pvp, and shouldn't.

    I think if we saw a third split maybe scourge could get some dps buffs for pve and not be forced into support or power. I'd love for scourge to go back into being condi bomber but the WVW mod will see huge complaints about it.

    I also think its understandable for people to want dps specs to be competitive. I do think that having the exact same dps doesn't have to be a thing. I will be ok as long as we get some other improvements in traits to survive in pve and maybe be a little more useful to the group with reaper, or if it stays selfish, then to fix the broken traits in death magic and others so necro has some sustain it can get from them and maybe offer something else to the group to be not entirely selfish.

    I keep wondering about the thing someone said which was something regarding the sustain abilities for necro being on weapons, because ele has sustain abilities on their weapon in water and earth element and it has no problem, so why can't necro have some too? why cant we have decent amount of sustain while sacrificing little dps? i mean its not fair eles in water trait get dps trait that helps them sustain and do dmg and necro is expected to go full glass with reaper.

    The beauty of gw2 is there is no trinity thing. You can be whatever you want and don’t need to rely on tank or healer...so why on earth they’d ruin it lol. If you want trinity you need to play something else like WOW Ff14 or whatever that’s out there

    GW2 is a mess and I rarely stick around sometimes coming back mainly because I enjoy ele and necro gameplay. The problem is that classes are seriously imbalanced.

    nerfs to classes in pve because of WVW anybody? scourge nerfs? chronomancer nerfs and core Mesmer nerfs?

    You don-t have to have 100% one class be of the holy trinity rather I think building to that role or a hybrid which GW2 does. The problem is that scourge im not sure if it fits the role yet as a viable support or no and its def shoehorned which is why I can-t stand ANET I can-t stand being shoehorned into a role I might not want. lets say I want condi scourge to be a thing, then why cant I build towards it for endgame? ANET keeps nerfing scourge and people are still crying for more nerfs. When will it be ok? when scourge no longer has any damage anymore and is useless in WVW and pve? When will we stop complaining about mesmers? when they can no longer do dmg and buff?

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2019

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Tom Hsiao.9705 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    I want to throw in my 2c The reason is because every class has every type of role (DPS/support/healer/Tank/offensive support) These are the main holy trinity of roles in the usual but balancing it is hell because some classes combine 2 or more elements of those roles.

    You cant have a class that is master dps and master offensive/defensive supports ala mesmers with chronomancers in the past with enough offensive and defensive supports combined with huge dps, its just unbalanced. I personally think they should make elite specs into the holy trinity and nerf them to make them fit that role in some way or another, while keeping them unique, and why not? we got a tree of skills and wow has a skill tree to make classes into dps or into tanks why not GW2? the reason i quit GW2 is because i hate being pigeon holed into a kitten job i don't want and being mediocre. Oh you want to play scourge? sorry you have to be support or nothing well gee wonder why people are quitting.

    Also i am waiting for a 3rd kitten separation of modes for WVW. There needs to be a total of 3 different modes separated its a lot of work for them but it will help in my opinion with the problems since people complain about scourges stacking and boon corrupting, well it isn't a problem in pve and i don't like pve getting nerfed because of pvp, and shouldn't.

    I think if we saw a third split maybe scourge could get some dps buffs for pve and not be forced into support or power. I'd love for scourge to go back into being condi bomber but the WVW mod will see huge complaints about it.

    I also think its understandable for people to want dps specs to be competitive. I do think that having the exact same dps doesn't have to be a thing. I will be ok as long as we get some other improvements in traits to survive in pve and maybe be a little more useful to the group with reaper, or if it stays selfish, then to fix the broken traits in death magic and others so necro has some sustain it can get from them and maybe offer something else to the group to be not entirely selfish.

    I keep wondering about the thing someone said which was something regarding the sustain abilities for necro being on weapons, because ele has sustain abilities on their weapon in water and earth element and it has no problem, so why can't necro have some too? why cant we have decent amount of sustain while sacrificing little dps? i mean its not fair eles in water trait get dps trait that helps them sustain and do dmg and necro is expected to go full glass with reaper.

    The beauty of gw2 is there is no trinity thing. You can be whatever you want and don’t need to rely on tank or healer...so why on earth they’d ruin it lol. If you want trinity you need to play something else like WOW Ff14 or whatever that’s out there

    GW2 is a mess and I rarely stick around sometimes coming back mainly because I enjoy ele and necro gameplay. The problem is that classes are seriously imbalanced.

    nerfs to classes in pve because of WVW anybody? scourge nerfs? chronomancer nerfs and core Mesmer nerfs?

    You don-t have to have 100% one class be of the holy trinity rather I think building to that role or a hybrid which GW2 does. The problem is that scourge im not sure if it fits the role yet as a viable support or no and its def shoehorned which is why I can-t stand ANET I can-t stand being shoehorned into a role I might not want. lets say I want condi scourge to be a thing, then why cant I build towards it for endgame? ANET keeps nerfing scourge and people are still crying for more nerfs. When will it be ok? when scourge no longer has any damage anymore and is useless in WVW and pve? When will we stop complaining about mesmers? when they can no longer do dmg and buff?

    They'll probably not be complained about when they stop being totally busted OP in the respective formats generating complaints.

    For scourge specifically, at no other point in history was a class universally limited/banned in GvG for being too overpowered. Scourge still is. And that's in pretty small 15v15 where the spec gets even stronger in larger encounters...

    ANet set out to make a support spec and ended up making the best AoE frontline burner ever, which indefinitely counters all large-scale metas and would have countered every large-scale meta ever in existence.

    Either they gut the AoE, gut the support, or gut the control/corruption. It can't be all three.

    Mirage literally defies one of the primary pillars of gameplay the game was built on which is visual clarity. It will always either be busted or useless with nothing in between.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.
    Quit/Inactive. No, you can't have my stuff.

©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.