“Too much survivability” — Guild Wars 2 Forums

“Too much survivability”

Kuulpb.5412Kuulpb.5412 Member ✭✭✭

I just want to get everyone’s opinion on something - Reaper 5% healing in shroud is “too much survivability” but Scrapper 15% barrier per hit (which i find fun) isn’t? Like - for engineer you dont need to be in range 300-360(i forget which), you “heal” for more and engineer already has stuff like automatic elixir S.

Comments

  • Ruufio.1496Ruufio.1496 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 19, 2019

    The amount of misinformation and misdirection for balance in your post> @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    I just want to get everyone’s opinion on something - Reaper 5% healing in shroud is “too much survivability” but Scrapper 15% barrier per hit (which i find fun) isn’t? Like - for engineer you dont need to be in range 300-360(i forget which), you “heal” for more and engineer already has stuff like automatic elixir S.

    The amount of misinformation and uninformed accusations in this post are astounding.

    1. Engineer does not have automatic elixir s. It was nerfed/removed.
    2. Scrapper survivability was gutted. (Everyone is whining about rapid regen/barrier but kinetic stabilizers was better than barrier) Regardless, both nerfed.
    3. The barrier on damage done gets instantly removed from retaliation. Every type of scrapper also now does less damage than before, which was already mediocre. Every scrapper now also has to invest into even more vitality than before which further reduces our damage (you cannot play at 10k HP)

    Scrapper is the LEAST survivable class now not counting necromancer.

  • Auburner.6945Auburner.6945 Member ✭✭✭

    For hitting something like 20k, you heal for 1k... hmmm... I guess it's more meant for PvE because you can gather up mobs and Spin-2-Win which heals for a crazy amount. In WvW/PvP though, Reaper already lacks any condi defense while in Shroud and only has a short frame of Stab uptime.

    I have never seen a Reaper going in with Warriors/Chrono (rip)/FBs/Scrapper even pre-patch, so that they can spin it in the middle of a zerg; even with that CoR or MS should knock them out of Shroud and make them cry out for life force. If it developed an unhealthy playstyle in PvE, then PvE should only get hit. I barely see Reapers roaming, or rather would say: Necros roaming, because no one struggles with them; easily predictable and hardly punished, even by a bunker Weaver's damage. Sure they are of the best mates with a support, but we're speaking of the best support in the game here, but this patch killed any chance when great support is lacking.

    See you on the necro forums side.

    Pull the strings. Watch them dance.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 19, 2019

    No. There isn't a problem in PvE or PvP.

    This feels more like a knee jerk nerf due to complains from someone who never plays Reaper.

    Realistically, no one camps Shroud in PvE.

    The rotation doesn't allow it and the dps loss is significant if one does camp Shroud more than necessary.

    The heal was very very enjoyable because sometimes yu do get hurt less than 90% Hp before going into Shroud, so healing back up during shroud allows yu to trigger Scholar to pull out damage in Shroud.

    PvP wise, no one stays in Shroud for long either.

    Camping it results in Lifeforce being burnt by enemy stacking Condi or Whaling on it since there are limited ways to gain LF in Shroud during a fight, nor can Necro access utilities to cleanse a Condi burst dropped on them.

    And for Openworld?

    Never mind Reaper, Core Necro with a Dagger and minions can tank for days.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:
    I just want to get everyone’s opinion on something - Reaper 5% healing in shroud is “too much survivability” but Scrapper 15% barrier per hit (which i find fun) isn’t? Like - for engineer you dont need to be in range 300-360(i forget which), you “heal” for more and engineer already has stuff like automatic elixir S.

    Impact Savant? -300 vit for taking that trait. Makes scrapper more squishy losing 3k max hp but "barrier" more on the long run.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Eramonster.2718 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:
    I just want to get everyone’s opinion on something - Reaper 5% healing in shroud is “too much survivability” but Scrapper 15% barrier per hit (which i find fun) isn’t? Like - for engineer you dont need to be in range 300-360(i forget which), you “heal” for more and engineer already has stuff like automatic elixir S.

    Impact Savant? -300 vit for taking that trait. Makes scrapper more squishy losing 3k max hp but "barrier" more on the long run.

    Too bad you're not taking the trait. You're getting it.

  • Kuulpb.5412Kuulpb.5412 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ruufio.1496 said:
    The amount of misinformation and misdirection for balance in your post> @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    I just want to get everyone’s opinion on something - Reaper 5% healing in shroud is “too much survivability” but Scrapper 15% barrier per hit (which i find fun) isn’t? Like - for engineer you dont need to be in range 300-360(i forget which), you “heal” for more and engineer already has stuff like automatic elixir S.

    The amount of misinformation and uninformed accusations in this post are astounding.

    1. Engineer does not have automatic elixir s. It was nerfed/removed.
    2. Scrapper survivability was gutted. (Everyone is whining about rapid regen/barrier but kinetic stabilizers was better than barrier) Regardless, both nerfed.
    3. The barrier on damage done gets instantly removed from retaliation. Every type of scrapper also now does less damage than before, which was already mediocre. Every scrapper now also has to invest into even more vitality than before which further reduces our damage (you cannot play at 10k HP)

    Scrapper is the LEAST survivable class now not counting necromancer.

    Then my apologies, I had rushed ahead, However I still feel scrapper's "barrier on hit" is much better than necromancers heal on hit ( which now got removed from shroud as of the patch) , as barrier goes past max health, which, granted retaliation etc ruins the usability of something like it, but it can let you use, for example - scholar runes, for longer since your max health is never damaged due to the barrier.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Auburner.6945 said:
    For hitting something like 20k, you heal for 1k... hmmm... I guess it's more meant for PvE because you can gather up mobs and Spin-2-Win which heals for a crazy amount. In WvW/PvP though, Reaper already lacks any condi defense while in Shroud and only has a short frame of Stab uptime.

    I have never seen a Reaper going in with Warriors/Chrono (rip)/FBs/Scrapper even pre-patch, so that they can spin it in the middle of a zerg; even with that CoR or MS should knock them out of Shroud and make them cry out for life force. If it developed an unhealthy playstyle in PvE, then PvE should only get hit. I barely see Reapers roaming, or rather would say: Necros roaming, because no one struggles with them; easily predictable and hardly punished, even by a bunker Weaver's damage. Sure they are of the best mates with a support, but we're speaking of the best support in the game here, but this patch killed any chance when great support is lacking.

    See you on the necro forums side.

    Never saw me play reaper then. Granted, most people are and were tragically bad at this spec.

    Fact is especially now that reaper has been converted into too much of a DPS class and suffers from Thief syndrome. Prior to the SR/R changes (SoS nerfs/LF degen nerfs, RShroud "buffs", mainly as that 7s shroud was absolutely essential) and continuous resulting damage buffs at the expense of durability, the class was insane if played properly and was easily a top-2 tank in WvW (top 3 now) by proper shroud use and LF gains alone.

    This is what happens when you demand DPS in raids. So far, it's happened to literally every other class that's gotten similar treatment. It's okay to not be a single-target damage king. And the reaper was baseline meant to tank and cleave.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.
    Quit/Inactive. No, you can't have my stuff.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vlad Morbius.1759 said:

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:> Fact is especially now that reaper has been converted into too much of a DPS class and suffers from Thief syndrome. Prior to the SR/R changes (SoS nerfs/LF degen nerfs, RShroud "buffs", mainly as that 7s shroud was absolutely essential) and continuous resulting damage buffs at the expense of durability, the class was insane if played properly and was easily a top-2 tank in WvW (top 3 now) by proper shroud use and LF gains alone.

    This is what happens when you demand DPS in raids. So far, it's happened to literally every other class that's gotten similar treatment. It's okay to not be a single-target damage king. And the reaper was baseline meant to tank and cleave.

    Just another way raids have screwed over this game. Makes me sick they added this kitten in the first place because it was never part of the core game or philosophy, and it is ruining specs and balance faster than even PvP could.

    you mean playable in pve? necro as a whole was dead there for years. reaper buffs made it playable and competetive. reaper was never meant to tank. it was supposed to be a slow, hard hitting spec. you can still find hot devs on youtube talking about it.
    Everyone also cleaved harder than reaper before the buff. soul spiral was also a dps loss to aa for a very long time. Core necro was all about facetanking, why should necro have another spec doing the same?

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vlad Morbius.1759 said:

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:> Fact is especially now that reaper has been converted into too much of a DPS class and suffers from Thief syndrome. Prior to the SR/R changes (SoS nerfs/LF degen nerfs, RShroud "buffs", mainly as that 7s shroud was absolutely essential) and continuous resulting damage buffs at the expense of durability, the class was insane if played properly and was easily a top-2 tank in WvW (top 3 now) by proper shroud use and LF gains alone.

    This is what happens when you demand DPS in raids. So far, it's happened to literally every other class that's gotten similar treatment. It's okay to not be a single-target damage king. And the reaper was baseline meant to tank and cleave.

    Just another way raids have screwed over this game. Makes me sick they added this kitten in the first place because it was never part of the core game or philosophy, and it is ruining specs and balance faster than even PvP could.

    You mean like the instant epi that got nerfed because the raid mobs complained about it being unreactable? Or the constant holo nerfs converting a DPS spec into a tanky bruiser? Or the confusion changes that comepletely brake bosses?
    Healers were also never meant to be in the core game. Game changes over time. A minority might play raids but thats also true for wvsw and that game mode affects the others aswell.
    The majority plays open world where a tank is also useless.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Vlad Morbius.1759 said:

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:> Fact is especially now that reaper has been converted into too much of a DPS class and suffers from Thief syndrome. Prior to the SR/R changes (SoS nerfs/LF degen nerfs, RShroud "buffs", mainly as that 7s shroud was absolutely essential) and continuous resulting damage buffs at the expense of durability, the class was insane if played properly and was easily a top-2 tank in WvW (top 3 now) by proper shroud use and LF gains alone.

    This is what happens when you demand DPS in raids. So far, it's happened to literally every other class that's gotten similar treatment. It's okay to not be a single-target damage king. And the reaper was baseline meant to tank and cleave.

    Just another way raids have screwed over this game. Makes me sick they added this kitten in the first place because it was never part of the core game or philosophy, and it is ruining specs and balance faster than even PvP could.

    You mean like the instant epi that got nerfed because the raid mobs complained about it being unreactable? Or the constant holo nerfs converting a DPS spec into a tanky bruiser? Or the confusion changes that comepletely brake bosses?
    Healers were also never meant to be in the core game. Game changes over time. A minority might play raids but thats also true for wvsw and that game mode affects the others aswell.
    The majority plays open world where a tank is also useless.

    And in open world no healers are needed and "viability" is not a concern. Your post is a fallacy.

    Raiding is the smallest population of the player base (as of PoF launch, possibly not the case now with so many people quitting the PvP modes since due to the egregious balance) and yet has the most stake in balance. So much so that it redacts the benefits of a change in design and has, per the reaper, gutted the spec at fulfilling its design goals and prevents the necromancer from seeing core improvements when the extrema such as reaper damage and scourge corruption are very difficult to enable buffs around for the core class without making them OP.

    Balancing for raids is a mistake. Financially (per ANet's dropping revenue since before HoT) and logically as to the number of impacted players.

    A PvE "meta" will always be a calculation based on the current game-state rather than an actual metagame because there is no response or evolution of the game-state player-side. Thus there is no actual metgame occurring from the game design perspective. It's pretty futile to even attempt "balancing" save some blatantly overpowered things when patch-to-patch some group will be heavily marginalized in attempts to curb stagnation.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.
    Quit/Inactive. No, you can't have my stuff.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 21, 2019

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Vlad Morbius.1759 said:

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:> Fact is especially now that reaper has been converted into too much of a DPS class and suffers from Thief syndrome. Prior to the SR/R changes (SoS nerfs/LF degen nerfs, RShroud "buffs", mainly as that 7s shroud was absolutely essential) and continuous resulting damage buffs at the expense of durability, the class was insane if played properly and was easily a top-2 tank in WvW (top 3 now) by proper shroud use and LF gains alone.

    This is what happens when you demand DPS in raids. So far, it's happened to literally every other class that's gotten similar treatment. It's okay to not be a single-target damage king. And the reaper was baseline meant to tank and cleave.

    Just another way raids have screwed over this game. Makes me sick they added this kitten in the first place because it was never part of the core game or philosophy, and it is ruining specs and balance faster than even PvP could.

    You mean like the instant epi that got nerfed because the raid mobs complained about it being unreactable? Or the constant holo nerfs converting a DPS spec into a tanky bruiser? Or the confusion changes that comepletely brake bosses?
    Healers were also never meant to be in the core game. Game changes over time. A minority might play raids but thats also true for wvsw and that game mode affects the others aswell.
    The majority plays open world where a tank is also useless.

    And in open world no healers are needed and "viability" is not a concern. Your post is a fallacy.

    Raiding is the smallest population of the player base (as of PoF launch, possibly not the case now with so many people quitting the PvP modes since due to the egregious balance) and yet has the most stake in balance. So much so that it redacts the benefits of a change in design and has, per the reaper, gutted the spec at fulfilling its design goals and prevents the necromancer from seeing core improvements when the extrema such as reaper damage and scourge corruption are very difficult to enable buffs around for the core class without making them OP.

    Balancing for raids is a mistake. Financially (per ANet's dropping revenue since before HoT) and logically as to the number of impacted players.

    A PvE "meta" will always be a calculation based on the current game-state rather than an actual metagame because there is no response or evolution of the game-state player-side. Thus there is no actual metgame occurring from the game design perspective. It's pretty futile to even attempt "balancing" save some blatantly overpowered things when patch-to-patch some group will be heavily marginalized in attempts to curb stagnation.

    The guild raid wvsw community is even smaller than that. Necro has already an extremely good wvsw spec with scourge.
    Fractals and open world pve exist aswell and pre buff reaper was also bad there. Was reaper even played in guild vs guild? That would be the equivalent of raids in pve. What does tanking mean in wvsw? Surviving your squad while all of them die is not that helpful is it? Pushing in and trying to cleave? Scourge is better at that.
    Reaper was never meant to be a tank. Reaper got gutted for you but it got better for the majority of players. How many players played a reaper "tank" in wvsw? How many do you see running around in open world pve, which the majority of players do, and fractals now?
    Viability might not be a concern but gameplay is. Spaming 2 for highest dps which was still bad was bad gameplay. All shroud skills being a dps loss over autoattack was bad design. Necro needed some damage since it didn't have a single decent power build before but plenty of decent pvp builds.

    The pve balance is not hurting anyone, thats just number tweaks and can be splitted easily. Photon blitz does multiple times the damage in pve compared to wvsw. Lots of stuff broken in wvsw has nothing to do with raids. Scourge's boon corrupt is not really needed there so raids are not the reason they have that. Boonbeast uses stuff nobody plays in raids and mirage is equally op in raids aswell.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 21, 2019

    Let me say a few things:

    • GvG raids are a small subset of the WvW community given the lack of support provided to the means of playing.
    • Reaper was in fact VERY useful in ZvZ/GvG with its high engage pressure/cleave and shout build and BM support options prior to PoF. Cooldown Resets on RS4 with the old RO enabled repeated Transfuses to heal and rally allies while the shouts provided substantial group support and big damage into the enemy midline with a good push.
    • Power reaper post-condi nerf (which was entirely rightful with 5->4 EZ builds - basically samilar play pattern as the current power spec due to the damage buffs) was a dominant solo/small group build and there are a number of necromancers in this community who can back that claim because I literally taught several of them how to play it and reach things like top 20/50/100 in sPvP as a consequence.
    • Reaper was absolutely meant to be durable and "unstoppable". Go re-watch the reveal video. It's literally stated verbatim.
    • Shroud AA being buffed a fraction to not be a DPS loss didn't have to happen by gutting the class' sustain by deleting those capabilities altogether.
    • Necro didn't have a top-end DPS build and still doesn't really. So I'm not really sure what your point is. It maybe makes pugs less likely to kick? Raids also always disfavor necro by design because the things necro does do not affect raid bosses, and with the implementation of Scourge, which just dials necro's valuable strengths to 11 (why the spec is limited or banned in GvG and is the only one to be of all professions - it's too strong at what it does), there's no room to buff core and change raid encounter design to favor core or reaper, because either those buffs to just RS make Reaper stronger than Scourge (OP or Scourge useless), or if buffing core necro to hit both, they also buff Scourge. You want necro balance in PvE? Has to come with a change to PvE encounter design. Otherwise it can't ever be balanced.
    • The PvE balance IS hurting people, though. Reaper isn't good in the PvP modes because of numbers. It's literally the opposite. Its numbers are some of the best in the game when it comes to burst damage, objectively. The problem is the class has no tools because all the things that made it actually viable from a design perspective in the PvP modes were systematically removed and replaced with bonus damage.
    • Again, it's not a numbers issue. With those respective classes, that's all they are, and Mirage is broken in both PvE and the PvP modes because of its design thanks to Mirage Cloak more than anything else rather than strictly its numbers, and boonbeast is OP just because boons themselves are and the unblockable access hard-counters firebrand/is too tanky which is co-controlling the meta (which is why due to boon power necros absolutely dominate larger-scale PvP and have historically defined the evolving meta in sPvP back since cele ele).

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.
    Quit/Inactive. No, you can't have my stuff.

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