Stay away from penalty traits.. - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Stay away from penalty traits..

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  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Another problem (which is where I initially thought you were going) is that Vitality determines your maximum amount of Barrier, so reducing Vitality also leads to reduced maximum Barrier. Now, you could argue that a scrapper is unlikely to reach its maximum barrier without outside assistance anyway, but it's another case of the penalty hurting the very thing that the elite specialisation is being forced into doing.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    penalty traits?

    those are called trade-offs.

    more to come.

    Most players don’t want trade offs they want to be carried in whatever they pick...
    If a class isn’t broken won’t have a meta build, as will be automatically putted aside.

  • @LaFurion.3167 said:
    I sincerely hope that arena net stays away from unavoidable minor traits that nerf your class. It's not fun.

    for pve - agree
    for pvp and wvw - disagree

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Another problem (which is where I initially thought you were going) is that Vitality determines your maximum amount of Barrier, so reducing Vitality also leads to reduced maximum Barrier. Now, you could argue that a scrapper is unlikely to reach its maximum barrier without outside assistance anyway, but it's another case of the penalty hurting the very thing that the elite specialisation is being forced into doing.

    Except you gain barrier by actively playing and dealing dmg. Mostly while also taking dmg. So it pretty much doesn't matter.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bluberblasen.9684 said:

    @LaFurion.3167 said:
    I sincerely hope that arena net stays away from unavoidable minor traits that nerf your class. It's not fun.

    for pve - agree
    for pvp and wvw - disagree

    Yup, I'd say it's perfectly justifiable in pvp/wvw and a good way to balance elite specs. And in pve who cares. Might as well leave it so people get used to it, but I don't really care.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2019

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    penalty traits?

    those are called trade-offs.

    more to come.

    Most players don’t want trade offs they want to be carried in whatever they pick...
    If a class isn’t broken won’t have a meta build, as will be automatically putted aside.

    True, which doesn't mean those people are correct. I think that's what you mean here too, but at this point, I'm not really sure :D

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 10, 2019

    I mean... classes should have trade offs, but if those trade offs are going to make the class feel unplayable, then maybe stick to number changes instead. tweaking numbers is also much easier then redesigning a class.

    Te lazla otstra.

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 10, 2019

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Another problem (which is where I initially thought you were going) is that Vitality determines your maximum amount of Barrier, so reducing Vitality also leads to reduced maximum Barrier. Now, you could argue that a scrapper is unlikely to reach its maximum barrier without outside assistance anyway, but it's another case of the penalty hurting the very thing that the elite specialisation is being forced into doing.

    Except you gain barrier by actively playing and dealing dmg. Mostly while also taking dmg. So it pretty much doesn't matter.

    Except you don't deal enough damage with scrapper to make it worth it. The scrapper spec originally was designed as a lock down spec, which gave you time to deal damage. That was all removed. If you want to deal damage now, you go holosmith.

  • Mil.3562Mil.3562 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 12, 2019

    @Chichimec.9364 said:
    Hmm, this is from the update notes - "These changes aim to refocus the scrapper as a tank-like character that utilizes personal barrier applications to stay in a fight." My scrapper was already a tank-like character. So refocusing the class on "personal barrier applications" was a deliberate nerf because it was too tanky? Ugh!

    First they have this disclaimer for the 'çouldn't be more obvious ' ridiculous nerf :
    " These changes aim to refocus the scrapper as a tank-like character that utilizes personal barrier applications to stay in a fight. "

    Then they swing the huge bat :
    " Impact Savant: ...... reduces vitality by 300. "

    This is like saying " I love you guys! ", then pulls out a machine gun and pew, pew, pew, pew, pew.....

    Very bad acting.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mil.3562 said:

    @Chichimec.9364 said:
    Hmm, this is from the update notes - "These changes aim to refocus the scrapper as a tank-like character that utilizes personal barrier applications to stay in a fight." My scrapper was already a tank-like character. So refocusing the class on "personal barrier applications" was a deliberate nerf because it was too tanky? Ugh!

    First they have this disclaimer for the 'çouldn't be more obvious ' ridiculous nerf :
    " These changes aim to refocus the scrapper as a tank-like character that utilizes personal barrier applications to stay in a fight. "

    Then they swing the huge bat :
    " Impact Savant: ...... reduces vitality by 300. "

    This is like saying " I love you guys! ", then pulls out a machine gun and pew, pew, pew, pew, pew.....

    Very bad acting.

    Nope, he's still literally supposed to utilize the barrier to stay in fight.

  • Opopanax.1803Opopanax.1803 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think another problem for scrappers that this causes is that you get pigeon holed into playing hammer.

    There are no MH power weapons for engineer, so if you don't want to kitten yourself, you can take rifle or hammer.

    It's pretty dang lame, but this has been a problem with core engineer for a while now...

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 14, 2019

    Yeah, beacuse "dealing dmg" is totally equivalent with topping dps/burst charts :+1:

    There's nothing wrong with pentalty traits for especs, which are supposed to -more or less- change the playstyle of a class.

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2019

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Yeah, beacuse "dealing dmg" is totally equivalent with topping dps/burst charts :+1:

    No, it's because of Impact Savant. Less damage == less barrier. Hence, no good scrapper builds that rely on that concept currently.

    "A percentage of the strike damage you deal is converted into barrier."

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Yeah, beacuse "dealing dmg" is totally equivalent with topping dps/burst charts :+1:

    No, it's because of Impact Savant. Less damage == less barrier. Hence, no good scrapper builds that rely on that concept currently.

    "A percentage of the strike damage you deal is converted into barrier."

    I know what it does, not sure why you're quoting that to me all of the sudden. And it's supposed to support the proactive playstyle in order to grant the sustain, hence the vit nerf. Also being able to dish out top dps while getting a free shield for doing so would be straight up broken.

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2019

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Yeah, beacuse "dealing dmg" is totally equivalent with topping dps/burst charts :+1:

    No, it's because of Impact Savant. Less damage == less barrier. Hence, no good scrapper builds that rely on that concept currently.

    "A percentage of the strike damage you deal is converted into barrier."

    I know what it does, not sure why you're quoting that to me all of the sudden. And it's supposed to support the proactive playstyle in order to grant the sustain, hence the vit nerf. Also being able to dish out top dps while getting a free shield for doing so would be straight up broken.

    Yes, something it is supposed to support but doesn't "given what other core engineer traits and utilities can be paired with it". You keep getting hung up on the top dps idea for some unknown reason when the issue is being able to dish out enough dps to get enough barrier. Hence, no good scrapper builds that rely on that concept currently.

    I like that there's a drunk scrapper build being used in PvP (not a top tier build though - you'll find that for holosmith) since it is so similar to what I and many others used during scrapper's beta weekend - some things never change. It doesn't take any scrapper barrier traits except for the required Impact Savant. Again, not a build that relies on the concept of utilizing barrier to "stay in a fight". It relies on all utility of elixirs with elixir S as the real damage mitigation skill.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2019

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Yeah, beacuse "dealing dmg" is totally equivalent with topping dps/burst charts :+1:

    No, it's because of Impact Savant. Less damage == less barrier. Hence, no good scrapper builds that rely on that concept currently.

    "A percentage of the strike damage you deal is converted into barrier."

    I know what it does, not sure why you're quoting that to me all of the sudden. And it's supposed to support the proactive playstyle in order to grant the sustain, hence the vit nerf. Also being able to dish out top dps while getting a free shield for doing so would be straight up broken.

    Yes, something it is supposed to support but doesn't "given what other core engineer traits and utilities can be paired with it". You keep getting hung up on the top dps idea for some unknown reason when the issue is being able to dish out enough dps to get enough barrier. Hence, no good scrapper builds that rely on that concept currently.

    I'm "getting hung up on the top dps idea"? You're the one that complains that "if you want to deal dmg, you pick holo1!111", so no, I'm not "getting hung up" on it, I'm just explaining to you why your justification is wrong. It also seems you just want to deal top dps while being close to unkillable because of the barrier that would obviously come along with it. It doesn't compete with holo dps, because it's not supposed to.
    Your whole argument revolves around "not enough dmg" and then you tell me I'm hung up on it? If I'm not supposed to keep addressing it, then stop writing about it. :D

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Yeah, beacuse "dealing dmg" is totally equivalent with topping dps/burst charts :+1:

    No, it's because of Impact Savant. Less damage == less barrier. Hence, no good scrapper builds that rely on that concept currently.

    "A percentage of the strike damage you deal is converted into barrier."

    I know what it does, not sure why you're quoting that to me all of the sudden. And it's supposed to support the proactive playstyle in order to grant the sustain, hence the vit nerf. Also being able to dish out top dps while getting a free shield for doing so would be straight up broken.

    Yes, something it is supposed to support but doesn't "given what other core engineer traits and utilities can be paired with it". You keep getting hung up on the top dps idea for some unknown reason when the issue is being able to dish out enough dps to get enough barrier. Hence, no good scrapper builds that rely on that concept currently.

    I'm "getting hung up on the top dps idea"? You're the one that complains that "if you want to deal dmg, you pick holo1!111", so no, I'm not "getting hung up" on it, I'm just explaining to you why your justification is wrong. It also seems you just want to deal top dps while being close to unkillable because of the barrier that would obviously come along with it. It doesn't compete with holo dps, because it's not supposed to.
    Your whole argument revolves around "not enough dmg" and then you tell me I'm hung up on it? If I'm not supposed to keep addressing it, then stop writing about it. :D

    I was responding to your main idea: "he's still literally supposed to utilize the barrier to stay in fight." That's wrong. There's no point fighting, "stay in the fight", bruiser builds being used.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2019

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Yeah, beacuse "dealing dmg" is totally equivalent with topping dps/burst charts :+1:

    No, it's because of Impact Savant. Less damage == less barrier. Hence, no good scrapper builds that rely on that concept currently.

    "A percentage of the strike damage you deal is converted into barrier."

    I know what it does, not sure why you're quoting that to me all of the sudden. And it's supposed to support the proactive playstyle in order to grant the sustain, hence the vit nerf. Also being able to dish out top dps while getting a free shield for doing so would be straight up broken.

    Yes, something it is supposed to support but doesn't "given what other core engineer traits and utilities can be paired with it". You keep getting hung up on the top dps idea for some unknown reason when the issue is being able to dish out enough dps to get enough barrier. Hence, no good scrapper builds that rely on that concept currently.

    I'm "getting hung up on the top dps idea"? You're the one that complains that "if you want to deal dmg, you pick holo1!111", so no, I'm not "getting hung up" on it, I'm just explaining to you why your justification is wrong. It also seems you just want to deal top dps while being close to unkillable because of the barrier that would obviously come along with it. It doesn't compete with holo dps, because it's not supposed to.
    Your whole argument revolves around "not enough dmg" and then you tell me I'm hung up on it? If I'm not supposed to keep addressing it, then stop writing about it. :D

    I was responding to your main idea: "he's still literally supposed to utilize the barrier to stay in fight." That's wrong. There's no point fighting, "stay in the fight", bruiser builds being used.

    Nope, it's not wrong -that is perfectly accurate what he's supposed to do. Also -not trying to be snarky- I don't understand what exactly you did with your last sentence here.

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    Here you go. Watch this post-patch video and try to find where dmg-for-barrier is being used to stay in a fight.

    I like how he does a 5k jump shot on a player and gets 700 barrier which wasn't even needed. The most barrier he got in that video was 5k from hitting multiple clones with blunderbuss and it didn't really matter anyway because the opponent was retreating.

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2019

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Yeah, beacuse "dealing dmg" is totally equivalent with topping dps/burst charts :+1:

    No, it's because of Impact Savant. Less damage == less barrier. Hence, no good scrapper builds that rely on that concept currently.

    "A percentage of the strike damage you deal is converted into barrier."

    I know what it does, not sure why you're quoting that to me all of the sudden. And it's supposed to support the proactive playstyle in order to grant the sustain, hence the vit nerf. Also being able to dish out top dps while getting a free shield for doing so would be straight up broken.

    Yes, something it is supposed to support but doesn't "given what other core engineer traits and utilities can be paired with it". You keep getting hung up on the top dps idea for some unknown reason when the issue is being able to dish out enough dps to get enough barrier. Hence, no good scrapper builds that rely on that concept currently.

    I'm "getting hung up on the top dps idea"? You're the one that complains that "if you want to deal dmg, you pick holo1!111", so no, I'm not "getting hung up" on it, I'm just explaining to you why your justification is wrong. It also seems you just want to deal top dps while being close to unkillable because of the barrier that would obviously come along with it. It doesn't compete with holo dps, because it's not supposed to.
    Your whole argument revolves around "not enough dmg" and then you tell me I'm hung up on it? If I'm not supposed to keep addressing it, then stop writing about it. :D

    I was responding to your main idea: "he's still literally supposed to utilize the barrier to stay in fight." That's wrong. There's no point fighting, "stay in the fight", bruiser builds being used.

    I don't understand what exactly you did with your last sentence here.

    Point fighting. Old scrapper bruiser builds were point fighters in PvP. They didn't do top dps. They were literally designed to "stay in the fight" on the node. Now engis are doing higher dmg/greater risk +1ing and roaming builds but the top build for that is on holosmith.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2019

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    Here you go. Watch this post-patch video and try to find where dmg-for-barrier is being used to stay in a fight.

    I don't see a reason to watch a random 11 minute video, so... nah, I'm fine.

    I like how he does a 5k jump shot on a player and gets 700 barrier which wasn't even needed. The most barrier he got in that video was 5k from hitting multiple clones with blunderbuss and it didn't really matter anyway because the opponent was retreating.

    I'm not sure how "getting a barrier when he didn't need it that time!" is relevant to anything said in this thread. Actually, I'm pretty sure it's not. Getting 5k barrier for hitting a skill is bad now? :lol: And again, just because the opponent was retreating it doesn't magically make the overall barrier gain irrelevant. If I charge malice on DE and the opponent will run away before I can unload on him, the malice system is suddenly worthless? What exactly is your argument here?

    Also stop responding multiple times to the same post again.

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2019

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    Here you go. Watch this post-patch video and try to find where dmg-for-barrier is being used to stay in a fight.

    I don't see a reason to watch a random 11 minute video, so... nah, I'm fine.

    I like how he does a 5k jump shot on a player and gets 700 barrier which wasn't even needed. The most barrier he got in that video was 5k from hitting multiple clones with blunderbuss and it didn't really matter anyway because the opponent was retreating.

    I'm not sure how "getting a barrier when he didn't need it that time!" is relevant to anything said in this thread. Actually, I'm pretty sure it's not. Getting 5k barrier for hitting a skill is bad now? :lol: And again, just because the opponent was retreating it doesn't magically make the overall barrier gain irrelevant. If I charge malice on DE and the opponent will run away before I can unload on him, the malice system is suddenly worthless? What exactly is your argument here?

    Also stop responding multiple times to the same post again.

    If you're not willing to watch that video, then you have no facts. Just because something was designed to be used a certain way doesn't mean it's being used that way.

    I'd much rather have a discussion about how players are actually using scrapper in relation to the latest version of the Impact Savant trait rather than a theory about what they're supposed to be doing. Your claim that someone "still literally supposed to utilize the barrier to stay in fight" is just theory. What can be seen from looking at online resources such as recommended builds and examining gameplay footage is that either the build isn't scrapper or the scrapper mechanic of dmg-for-barrier is completely incidental or outright ignored in the build. No one is thinking "gee I need some barrier to stay in this fight so I better do some dmg here".

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2019

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    Here you go. Watch this post-patch video and try to find where dmg-for-barrier is being used to stay in a fight.

    I don't see a reason to watch a random 11 minute video, so... nah, I'm fine.

    I like how he does a 5k jump shot on a player and gets 700 barrier which wasn't even needed. The most barrier he got in that video was 5k from hitting multiple clones with blunderbuss and it didn't really matter anyway because the opponent was retreating.

    I'm not sure how "getting a barrier when he didn't need it that time!" is relevant to anything said in this thread. Actually, I'm pretty sure it's not. Getting 5k barrier for hitting a skill is bad now? :lol: And again, just because the opponent was retreating it doesn't magically make the overall barrier gain irrelevant. If I charge malice on DE and the opponent will run away before I can unload on him, the malice system is suddenly worthless? What exactly is your argument here?

    Also stop responding multiple times to the same post again.

    If you're not willing to watch that video, then you have no facts. Just because something was designed to be used a certain way doesn't mean it's being used that way.

    What do you mean I have no facts? I have the game. Also you literally told me what you want me to watch there and I responded to that. Spending 11 minutes to see how someone runs away while I generated barrier is pointless and irrelevant. Just because there's a meta that doesn't favor a certain class, spec or build doesn't magically make that build stupid, pointless or otherwise imbalanced.

    I'd much rather have a discussion about how players are actually using scrapper in relation to the latest version of the Impact Savant trait rather than a theory about what they're supposed to be doing. Your claim that someone "still literally supposed to utilize the barrier to stay in fight" is just theory. What can be seen from looking at online resources such as recommended builds and examining gameplay footage is that either the build isn't scrapper or the scrapper mechanic of dmg-for-barrier is completely incidental or outright ignored in the build.

    It's not only a theory, that's what you're literally supposed to do and just because someone can disengage the fight doesn't make it worthless. It's like saying "watch this video, see how that guy dodged a skill? It means it's now useless, it should be undodgable". I don't understand your point here, because for now it seems you have none. First you complain about not enough dps to generate the barrier, then you complain that I'm answering about dps while YOU were talking about it as a part of your pseudo-argument and now your complaint is that... Someone ran away when the scrapper got the barrier? ...what?

    No one is thinking "gee I need some barrier to stay in this fight so I better do some dmg here".

    Noone is thinking that, because it's there for usage anyways. I can't imagine how you'd want to play to not automatically utilize that part of the spec, so again I'm not sure what's your complaint here. You try to claim it's coincidental, but it's not, it's a good source of sustain as long as you're... well, DOING SOMETHING.
    It also seems like you forgot what the main point of this thread is.

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:
    No one is thinking "gee I need some barrier to stay in this fight so I better do some dmg here".

    Noone is thinking that, because it's there for usage anyways. ... You try to claim it's coincidental, but it's not

    Yes, that's what incidental means (I didn't say coincidental). It isn't the main focus or feature of a build. No one is using a build that purposely "utilizes barrier to stay in a fight". Impact Savant is designed in theory for that type of build focus, but it doesn't exist. This goes back to my first response to you: "Patch has been out awhile now and there's still no good scrapper builds that utilize the "do damage for barrier" mechanic for fighting."

    It's not only a theory, that's what you're literally supposed to do and just because someone can disengage the fight doesn't make it worthless.

    Saying this is what you're literally supposed to do as an engineer player is contradictory to the fact that it is incidental. Something that is automatic isn't the same as something you are "literally supposed to do". I'm literally supposed to wash my dishes today. They don't get cleaned automatically by sitting in the sink, but they do get wet incidentally every time someone runs the water in the sink. You're literally supposed to use the elixir utilities in that scrapper build to stay in the fight, not Impact Savant.

    TL;DR:
    Impact Savant is not a main feature of any scrapper build that people are actually using. They're not using scrapper at all in a role that Impact Savant is designed for.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:
    No one is thinking "gee I need some barrier to stay in this fight so I better do some dmg here".

    Noone is thinking that, because it's there for usage anyways. ... You try to claim it's coincidental, but it's not

    Yes, that's what incidental means (I didn't say coincidental). It isn't the main focus or feature of a build. No one is using a build that purposely "utilizes barrier to stay in a fight". Impact Savant is designed in theory for that type of build focus, but it doesn't exist. This goes back to my first response to you: "Patch has been out awhile now and there's still no good scrapper builds that utilize the "do damage for barrier" mechanic for fighting."

    Yeah, that's what I meant and it doesn't change anything I said. I never said it's the main focus or feature of a build and it doesn't need to be, it's still a useful and meaningful part of it. Noone utilizes barrier to stay in a fight? :lol: On the contrary, literally everyone attacking a non-afking target utilizes it.
    This goes back to multiple of my responses to you, but I'll stick to the last post, because for some reason you decided to ignore most of it:
    "* Just because there's a meta that doesn't favor a certain class, spec or build doesn't magically make that build stupid, pointless or otherwise imbalanced.*"

    It's not only a theory, that's what you're literally supposed to do and just because someone can disengage the fight doesn't make it worthless.

    Saying this is what you're literally supposed to do as an engineer player is contradictory to the fact that it is incidental. Something that is automatic isn't the same as something you are "literally supposed to do".

    Again, it's quite the oposite, there's no logic in what you just said. You claim that just because it's an automatically attached to the spec build, it makes you... not supposed to utilize it? Solid.

    I'm literally supposed to wash my dishes today. They don't get cleaned automatically by sitting in the sink, but they do get wet incidentally every time someone runs the water in the sink. You're literally supposed to use the elixir utilities in that scrapper build to stay in the fight, not Impact Savant.

    You're using a dishwasher, which is automatic (like automatically getting the barrier), but you still need to load it before it can automatically do its job (like you're supposed to deal dmg to make use of the barrier gain).
    To put it lightly, your comparison makes little to no sense. But hey, try utilizing your barrier gain by just picking a scrapper spec and then getting hit by enemies while you're afk. Because that's much closer to what you just said.

    TL;DR:
    Impact Savant is not a main feature of any scrapper build that people are actually using. They're not using scrapper at all in a role that Impact Savant is designed for.

    tldr: you pretended most of my post didn't even exist and all you came up with is a reasoning that a single minor trait isn't "a main feature of a build". For some reason you're trying to dispute a claim that I've never made in the first place. Too bad that it's still a relevant part of the spec and you're utilizing it when you actively play a scrapper spec whether your random online guide mentions it or not.

  • Matoro.9708Matoro.9708 Member ✭✭✭

    Can I make a joke about traits being penalized? Like Experimental Turrets? CI? Etc.

    For real, if scrapper was given a bit of barrier with condition damage, it'd probably fix the issues people are having right there. Taking firearms automatically gives you a bit of hybrid bleeds. Make it so the 5% damage from boons also affects condi damage, and suddenly, you have a lot more passive barrier intake from damaging people with things you were already damaging them with. Big brain moment. Pair that with some new quality of life and improved core skills, and scrapper can feel like an engineer that (while no longer having physical gyros for the most part) uses gyros to stay in a fight and slap boys for their barrier, with a ton of build diversity.

    Society either needs a turret rework or to free bobby schmurda and I wonder which comes first?

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Matoro.9708 said:
    Can I make a joke about traits being penalized? Like Experimental Turrets? CI? Etc.

    For real, if scrapper was given a bit of barrier with condition damage, it'd probably fix the issues people are having right there. Taking firearms automatically gives you a bit of hybrid bleeds. Make it so the 5% damage from boons also affects condi damage, and suddenly, you have a lot more passive barrier intake from damaging people with things you were already damaging them with. Big brain moment. Pair that with some new quality of life and improved core skills, and scrapper can feel like an engineer that (while no longer having physical gyros for the most part) uses gyros to stay in a fight and slap boys for their barrier, with a ton of build diversity.

    It'd definitely help. Still leaves the scrapper support builds that started coming out of the woodwork before the last patch dead in the water, though.

  • Matoro.9708Matoro.9708 Member ✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Matoro.9708 said:
    Can I make a joke about traits being penalized? Like Experimental Turrets? CI? Etc.

    For real, if scrapper was given a bit of barrier with condition damage, it'd probably fix the issues people are having right there. Taking firearms automatically gives you a bit of hybrid bleeds. Make it so the 5% damage from boons also affects condi damage, and suddenly, you have a lot more passive barrier intake from damaging people with things you were already damaging them with. Big brain moment. Pair that with some new quality of life and improved core skills, and scrapper can feel like an engineer that (while no longer having physical gyros for the most part) uses gyros to stay in a fight and slap boys for their barrier, with a ton of build diversity.

    It'd definitely help. Still leaves the scrapper support builds that started coming out of the woodwork before the last patch dead in the water, though.

    Yeah, the single most interesting synergy support scrapper has IMO is purge gyro with antitoxin runes, and to a lesser extent reconstruction field with anticorrosion plating. Being forced to take impact savant without having any damage feels pretty bad for sure. If anet wanted to force gyros to only be taken by those with a bruiser playstyle, they succeeded.

    Society either needs a turret rework or to free bobby schmurda and I wonder which comes first?

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 16, 2019

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    TL;DR:
    Impact Savant is not a main feature of any scrapper build that people are actually using. They're not using scrapper at all in a role that Impact Savant is designed for.

    tldr: you pretended most of my post didn't even exist and all you came up with is a reasoning that a single minor trait isn't "a main feature of a build". For some reason you're trying to dispute a claim that I've never made in the first place. Too bad that it's still a relevant part of the spec and you're utilizing it when you actively play a scrapper spec whether your random online guide mentions it or not.

    Calling it a relevant part of the spec IS making the claim that it is a main feature of a build. That may not be what you intend to say, but that is what you are actually saying when you use words like relevant instead of just saying it is part of the spec. No one is using it as a relevant part of the their scrapper builds! It is an irrelevant part of their builds.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 16, 2019

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    TL;DR:
    Impact Savant is not a main feature of any scrapper build that people are actually using. They're not using scrapper at all in a role that Impact Savant is designed for.

    tldr: you pretended most of my post didn't even exist and all you came up with is a reasoning that a single minor trait isn't "a main feature of a build". For some reason you're trying to dispute a claim that I've never made in the first place. Too bad that it's still a relevant part of the spec and you're utilizing it when you actively play a scrapper spec whether your random online guide mentions it or not.

    Calling it a relevant part of the spec IS making the claim that it is a main feature of a build. No one is using it as a relevant part of the their scrapper builds!

    No, being relevant part of the spec doesn't mean it's a main feature of a build. It means it does something, because it does. Everyone fighting anyone that's not AFK is using it as a relevant part of their scrapper build. It mitigates dmg whether you want to admit it or not.

    It also seems like you forgot what the main point of this thread is.

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 16, 2019

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    It also seems like you forgot what the main point of this thread is.

    The thread is about Impact Savant being a penalty trait. I haven't gotten away from talking about Impact Savant. The intent of the trait to feature in bruiser builds doesn't bear out in practice. As follow-up, we see no scrapper builds since the patch where Impact Savant is relevant to their build. The drunk scrapper build doesn't require the trait in order to "stay in the fight" since it uses a full bar of elixir utilities (afaict the only reason for the scrapper line at all in that build is for the lockdown features and function gyro) . The trait is also not relevant to the WvW scrapper support build. All the trait does is introduce a vitality penalty for taking the scrapper line and discourages any condition-based scrapper builds. No one is using it's "trade-off".

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 16, 2019

    The thread is about Impact Savant being a penalty trait. I haven't gotten away from talking about Impact Savant.

    Nah, the thread is about balancing specs based on including "[minor] penalty traits", it wasn't about a single trait of a single class.

    You also keep avoiding what I write in my posts, not sure why, but I guess I'll start doing the same, hf with that. :D

    No one is using it's "trade-off".

    Again, quite the contrary. Everyone fighting anyone that's not AFK is using it as a relevant part of their scrapper build. It mitigates dmg whether you want to admit it or not.

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 16, 2019

    Yes, the thread is about balancing specs using penalty traits such as Impact Savant, which is the trait the OP used as an example then went on to state that scrappers have been gutted. I haven't gotten away from talking about Impact Savant nor scrappers.

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    You also keep avoiding what I write in my posts, not sure why, but I guess I'll start doing the same, hf with that. :D

    I'm sorry, but there's no point to addressing every single irrelevant tangent that doesn't really change the TLDR. Posts would be boringly large essays if I did and this format doesn't support that.

    Also, please stop using the word relevant incorrectly. The effect of barrier for damage is incidental (not coincidental).

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    You also keep avoiding what I write in my posts, not sure why, but I guess I'll start doing the same, hf with that. :D

    I'm sorry, but there's no point to addressing every single irrelevant tangent.

    I'm directly responding to what you write, aren't I? If suddenly it's somehow "irrelevant" then... well, start writing relevant things I can respond to.

    My posts would be boringly large essays if I did and this format doesn't support that.

    What format "doesn't support that"? You can easly quote any part of the post and directly respond to anything you want. Instead you cut out single sentence and write something irrelevant to what I wrote because it's easier for you to drop an argument you don't like.

    Also, please stop using the word relevant incorrectly. The effect of barrier for damage is incidental (not coincidental).

    It wasn't used incorrectly. By me, at least. Being "relevant" and "incidental" have nothing to do with each other. Start using dictionaries.

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 16, 2019

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    What format "doesn't support that"? You can easly quote any part of the post and directly respond to anything you want. Instead you cut out single sentence and write something irrelevant to what I wrote because it's easier for you to drop an argument you don't like.

    An Internet forum isn't a book nor an essay! I prefer give my audience the chance to actually read what I write, not give them headaches trying to read something too long and formatted in broken-up clumps.

    Also, please stop using the word relevant incorrectly. The effect of barrier for damage is incidental (not coincidental).

    Being "relevant" and "incidental" have nothing to do with each other. Start using dictionaries.

    Wow. That's what I said. They aren't the same. The trait isn't relevant to builds people are actually using. It is irrelevant and incidental to their builds. Take your own advice.

    I'm beginning to feel like you don't really understand trait and skill synergy when I talk about what is relevant or incidental to a build. Impact Savant is designed for having synergy with the barrier-giving traits and utilities so that a theorycrafter could base a build around it, but again, no one is using it for that. It's a weak synergy.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 16, 2019

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    What format "doesn't support that"? You can easly quote any part of the post and directly respond to anything you want. Instead you cut out single sentence and write something irrelevant to what I wrote because it's easier for you to drop an argument you don't like.

    An Internet forum isn't a book nor an essay! I prefer give my audience the chance to actually read what I write, not give them headaches trying to read something too long and formatted in broken-up clumps.

    Of course it's not, how is this an argument? When you want to discuss something, you need to read and type a certain amount of words, this is how communicating on boards looks like. Internet not being a book has nothing to do with it, I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve by saying that. Also none of our posts are even remotely close to -for example- starlinvf's post from this thread, seems to me like a weak excuse for having nothing to say, but wanting to pretend otherwise.
    On the other hand if reading 5 sentences gives you a headache (because seemingly you think it's the same for others), your constant confusion starts making a little more sense.

    Also, please stop using the word relevant incorrectly. The effect of barrier for damage is incidental (not coincidental).

    Being "relevant" and "incidental" have nothing to do with each other. Start using dictionaries.

    Wow. That's what I said. They aren't the same. The trait isn't relevant to builds people are actually using. It is incidental. Take your own advice.

    Yes, they aren't. And "incidental" has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. "Relevant" on the other hand... Yup, that's the word. Calling it "incidental" has nothing to do with what I wrote, just stop failing already because it's getting boring.

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 16, 2019

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Yes, they aren't. And "incidental" has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. "Relevant" on the other hand... Yup, that's the word. Calling it "incidental" has nothing to do with what I wrote, just stop failing already because it's getting boring.

    Then stop responding to me.

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/relevant

    Definition of relevant

    1a : having significant and demonstrable bearing on the matter at hand

    As in Impact Savant has no significant and demonstrable bearing on the scrapper builds people are actually using.

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 16, 2019

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/incidental
    a : being likely to ensue as a chance or minor consequence
    b : occurring merely by chance or without intention or calculation

    Getting barrier for damage is occurring without intention in the builds people are making for scrapper. No one is making builds where the intention is to get barrier for damage to "stay in a fight". Being incidental, it has no significant and demonstrable bearing on their builds. It is irrelevant.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 16, 2019

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Yes, they aren't. And "incidental" has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. "Relevant" on the other hand... Yup, that's the word. Calling it "incidental" has nothing to do with what I wrote, just stop failing already because it's getting boring.

    Then stop responding to me.

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/relevant

    Definition of relevant

    1a : having significant and demonstrable bearing on the matter at hand

    As in Impact Savant has no significant and demonstrable bearing on the scrapper builds people are actually using.

    Hey, good job, you've read something from a dictionary. Next step: understanding what you read.
    There are healing skills that heal for ~5k. IIRC you literally linked and tried to use as an argument a scrapper video in which on a skill use, the eng received 5k barrier (your words, I still didn't watch it btw). Now you're telling me that mitigating 5k dmg is irrelevant? Not significant? Not demonstrable? :lol: Then why do we even bother having any healing skills in the game?
    MOREOVER! By losing 300 vit you're losing 3k hp. If 5k dmg barrier is irrelevant, then losing 300 vit is even more unnoticable. By your own standards at least. Oof.

    Getting barrier for damage is occurring without intention

    Things can occure without intention and still be significant/relevant. You make no sense.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Again, quite the contrary. Everyone fighting anyone that's not AFK is using it as a relevant part of their scrapper build. It mitigates dmg whether you want to admit it or not.

    Not if you're running a medkit-based support scrapper, you don't. People were actually starting to experiment with that sort of thing before the patch, making possibly the first time medkit has been used seriously for a long time. Not now, funnily enough.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 16, 2019

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Again, quite the contrary. Everyone fighting anyone that's not AFK is using it as a relevant part of their scrapper build. It mitigates dmg whether you want to admit it or not.

    Not if you're running a medkit-based support scrapper, you don't. People were actually starting to experiment with that sort of thing before the patch, making possibly the first time medkit has been used seriously for a long time. Not now, funnily enough.

    Yes, you're correct. But we're talking about dealing dmg here and I'm pretty sure I said that in my previous posts. :D Literally not dealing dmg obviously negates that.

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 16, 2019

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    the eng received 5k barrier (your words, I still didn't watch it btw)

    My words also said it was 5k because blunderbuss hit clones, it only occurred one single time in the entire video, the opponent had already disengaged from the fight before the barrier applied, and the heal skill was up. Hence, the effect was incidental and not relevant to the build.

    Now you're telling me that mitigating 5k dmg is irrelevant?

    Ah ha! This is the source of your misunderstanding. 5k sounds significant and it is when taken out of context. Yet there are zero builds where Impact Savant is significant/relevant to the build. I have been clear and consistent that I'm talking about scrapper builds. The engineer wasn't continuing to take damage since the fight was already over. What damage was being mitigated by the barrier for him to "stay in the fight" (your words)? Do you know how much more damage was mitigated every time the engineer used the "relevant to the build" elixir S to stay in the fight? You'd know this if you actually watch the video.

    Things can occure without intention and still be significant/relevant. You make no sense.

    As I wrote above: "I'm beginning to feel like you don't really understand trait and skill synergy when I talk about what is relevant or incidental to a build. Impact Savant is designed for having synergy with the barrier-giving traits and utilities so that a theorycrafter could base a build around it, but again, no one is using it for that. It's a weak synergy." The drunk scrapper build takes no additional traits, skills, or weapons that boost barrier application because barrier is not relevant to the build, only incidental.

    There are zero builds where Impact Savant is significant/relevant to the build.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    the eng received 5k barrier (your words, I still didn't watch it btw)

    My words also said it was 5k because blunderbuss hit clones, it only occurred one single time in the entire video, the opponent had already disengaged from the fight before the barrier applied, and the heal skill was up. Hence, the effect was incidental and not relevant to the build.

    It doesn't matter why it was there, what matters is that it happened in a regular non-scripted fight. Also it's only an example so you can TRY and understand that pretty simple concept that you keep missing for some unknown reason. In "reality" fights usually don't start and end on a single skill hit, it's still valuable trait for sustain.
    Opponent disengaging from a fights is IRRELEVANT, for the same reason I wrote that by YOUR LOGIC any dodged skill doesn't magically turn into worthless just because at that moment it did nothing. Do you understand that fact?

    Now you're telling me that mitigating 5k dmg is irrelevant?

    Ah ha! This is the source of your misunderstanding. 5k sounds significant and it is when taken out of context. Yet there are zero builds where Impact Savant is significant/relevant to the build. I have been clear and consistent that I'm talking about scrapper builds. The engineer wasn't continuing to take damage since the fight was already over. What damage was being mitigated by the barrier for him to "stay in the fight" (your words)?

    It sounds significant and it is. There's no misunderstanding about it. Go reread my previous posts with understanding now. Just because someone takes ADDITIONAL MEANS OF SUSTAIN doesn't mean he's suddenly NOT USING THIS ONE. You're still using it and it's still relevant.
    Seriously the fact that you try to base your argument on someone running away when you got barrier is laughable, I literally can't believe you keep insisting that's a fact :lol: (again, by that logic -YOUR LOGIC- every barrier is worthless)

    Things can occure without intention and still be significant/relevant. You make no sense.

    As I wrote above: "I'm beginning to feel like you don't really understand trait and skill synergy when I talk about what is relevant or incidental to a build. Impact Savant is designed for having synergy with the barrier-giving traits and utilities so that a theorycrafter could base a build around it, but again, no one is using it for that. It's a weak synergy."

    There are zero builds where Impact Savant is significant/relevant to the build.

    It's clear you don't understand what you're talking about. Just because you don't build and do everything around one aspect of the profession, doesn't mean it's irrelevant. You're still always using it, it's still always (when you're dealing dmg, nothing changed with that) a source of sustain. The fact that you're not building around it is because you pretty much can't and it's still selfsufficient by itself.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭

    @LaFurion.3167 said:
    I sincerely hope that arena net stays away from unavoidable minor traits that nerf your class. It's not fun.

    Daredevil having 600 range steal was bad. Now engineer scrapper, a spec that was meant to be a tanky bruiser has -300 vitality just for equipping the elite spec.

    Its just not good design. Period. Please change this... scrappers really got gutted..... stay away from these unavoidable nerf traits please.

    The issue is not in the -300 vitality. It's in that scrappers didn't get 1) enough barrier to compensate for that loss of health pool, or 2) nothing else added (toughness for example) to balance out or justify the loss of health pool. The give and take aspect is a great addition, it just feels a little incomplete for scrapper right now.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 16, 2019

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Seriously the fact that you try to base your argument on someone running away when you got barrier is laughable

    My argument is based on this fact:

    • Patch has been out awhile now and there's still no good scrapper builds that utilize the "do damage for barrier" mechanic for fighting.
    • Hence, no good scrapper builds that rely on that concept currently
    • What can be seen from looking at online resources such as recommended builds and examining gameplay footage is that either the build isn't scrapper or the scrapper mechanic of dmg-for-barrier is completely incidental or outright ignored in the build.
    • Impact Savant is not a main feature of any scrapper build that people are actually using.
    • No one is using it as a relevant part of the their scrapper builds
    • As follow-up, we see no scrapper builds since the patch where Impact Savant is relevant to their build.
    • The trait isn't relevant to builds people are actually using.
    • Impact Savant is designed for having synergy with the barrier-giving traits and utilities so that a theorycrafter could base a build around it, but again, no one is using it for that.
    • Impact Savant has no significant and demonstrable bearing on the scrapper builds people are actually using.
    • There are zero builds where Impact Savant is significant/relevant to the build.

    It's clear you don't understand what you're talking about.

    I consulted with fellow scrapper players and we all agreed you don't understand what you're talking about, you being a thief player after all.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Seriously the fact that you try to base your argument on someone running away when you got barrier is laughable

    No, my argument is based on this fact: There are zero builds where Impact Savant is significant/relevant to the build.

    It is always significant as long as you're dealing and receiving damage.
    But, again, disregard anything you wrote earlier when -I assume- you realise you were wrong.

    It's clear you don't understand what you're talking about.

    I consulted with fellow scrapper players and we all agreed you don't understand what you're talking about, you being a thief player after all.

    ?

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Seriously the fact that you try to base your argument on someone running away when you got barrier is laughable

    No, my argument is based on this fact: There are zero builds where Impact Savant is significant/relevant to the build.

    It is always significant as long as you're dealing and receiving damage.

    With the WvW scrapper support build, no one would say getting barrier is significant even though you are dealing some damage. LOL. In the drunk scrapper build, the elixirs are the significant part of the build. Impact Savant is incidental to current scrapper builds. Or as one of my fellow scrapper players put it, "Barrier just a benefit of hitting things."

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 17, 2019

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Seriously the fact that you try to base your argument on someone running away when you got barrier is laughable

    No, my argument is based on this fact: There are zero builds where Impact Savant is significant/relevant to the build.

    It is always significant as long as you're dealing and receiving damage.

    With the WvW scrapper support build, no one would say getting barrier is significant even though you are dealing some damage. LOL. In the drunk scrapper build, the elixirs are the significant part of the build. Impact Savant is incidental to current scrapper builds. Or as one of my fellow scrapper players put it, "Barrier just a benefit of hitting things."

    Wow, so you say that if someone tries to support other players instead of actually dealing dmg, he won't actually get as much of a shield that is a % of dmg dealt? :o Your "fellow scrapper player" sounds like he has some troubles with constructing a coherent sentence tbh. :D

    Anyways, good job with pentalty traits, Anet, I think it's a good direction to counter-balance some of the aspects of e-specs and turn them in the right direction.

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