Quickbrand + Alacrity renegade - who is typically the healer? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Quickbrand + Alacrity renegade - who is typically the healer?

Hi guys. For fractals: I want to make a support build and I'm looking at the current meta. I see support quickbrand with berserker gear and support renegade with diviner gear. Neither of these look like healer support builds. How does this team composition work? Does either the quickbrand or the diviner need to swap gear and build to provide heals? Do they both provide mediocre heals that add up to one good healer?

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Comments

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2019

    Good group won't need healer, and those classes bring some sustain for group already, however if you need healer usually its renegade.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • In fractals the firebrand is the healer.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    Good group won't need healer, and those classes bring some sustain for group already, however if you need healer usually its renegade.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    In fractals the firebrand is the healer.

    Well you both can't be right :wink:

    @ OP - I play Power Quickbrand, and I'm usually paired up with a Druid or Renegade for heals, though sometimes a Healbrand. I believe you can play either as a DPS support. I don't believe either is required to be healer support.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    Good group won't need healer, and those classes bring some sustain for group already, however if you need healer usually its renegade.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    In fractals the firebrand is the healer.

    Well you both can't be right :wink:

    @ OP - I play Power Quickbrand, and I'm usually paired up with a Druid or Renegade for heals, though sometimes a Healbrand. I believe you can play either as a DPS support. I don't believe either is required to be healer support.

    Yeah. I think The actual right answer is that both can Be healers. I just find more rene healers, perhaps coz my friends play mostly raids and atleast we use rene there as heal instead of firebrand.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    Good group won't need healer, and those classes bring some sustain for group already, however if you need healer usually its renegade.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    In fractals the firebrand is the healer.

    Well you both can't be right :wink:

    @ OP - I play Power Quickbrand, and I'm usually paired up with a Druid or Renegade for heals, though sometimes a Healbrand. I believe you can play either as a DPS support. I don't believe either is required to be healer support.

    Yeah. I think The actual right answer is that both can Be healers. I just find more rene healers, perhaps coz my friends play mostly raids and atleast we use rene there as heal instead of firebrand.

    I wonder if perhaps it wasn't just an evolution? I started playing Quickbrand when ANET gutted Chrono (not this patch, or the last one, the 3rd gutting ago) and I found most T4 pugs just made do with no Alacrity so long as Quickness uptime was there. Healers were still typical Druids. But then Druids got gutted (not last patch, a few patches ago) and I think the higher end Fractal community proved that an Alacrity Renegade + Quickness FB was a better combo than the now gutted Druid/Chrono.

    So it kinda makes sense that there were a lot of Quickbrands running around with Power/Diviner stats, whereas before you hardly ever saw a Renegade in T4s, so they just geared up as healers. That's my guess anyways :)

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    Good group won't need healer, and those classes bring some sustain for group already, however if you need healer usually its renegade.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    In fractals the firebrand is the healer.

    Well you both can't be right :wink:

    @ OP - I play Power Quickbrand, and I'm usually paired up with a Druid or Renegade for heals, though sometimes a Healbrand. I believe you can play either as a DPS support. I don't believe either is required to be healer support.

    Yeah. I think The actual right answer is that both can Be healers. I just find more rene healers, perhaps coz my friends play mostly raids and atleast we use rene there as heal instead of firebrand.

    I wonder if perhaps it wasn't just an evolution? I started playing Quickbrand when ANET gutted Chrono (not this patch, or the last one, the 3rd gutting ago) and I found most T4 pugs just made do with no Alacrity so long as Quickness uptime was there. Healers were still typical Druids. But then Druids got gutted (not last patch, a few patches ago) and I think the higher end Fractal community proved that an Alacrity Renegade + Quickness FB was a better combo than the now gutted Druid/Chrono.

    So it kinda makes sense that there were a lot of Quickbrands running around with Power/Diviner stats, whereas before you hardly ever saw a Renegade in T4s, so they just geared up as healers. That's my guess anyways :)

    Thats a pretty solid theory.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • I don't raid. The last several times I was in fractals, the healers were always Firebrands or Druids. Never once was it renegade.

    From a logical standpoint, this makes sense. The biggest issue with heal renegades is that their heals are focused in narrow areas and are anchored to the tablet. Heal Firebrand is much more mobile, and heals in a wider area. Also, Heal Firebrand provides a lot of aegis, regeneration, and they can provide stability. Renegade just gives out alacrity and might no matter what build you use. This makes firebrand much more useful than renegade for healing in fractals.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    I don't raid. The last several times I was in fractals, the healers were always Firebrands or Druids. Never once was it renegade.

    From a logical standpoint, this makes sense. The biggest issue with heal renegades is that their heals are focused in narrow areas and are anchored to the tablet. Heal Firebrand is much more mobile, and heals in a wider area. Also, Heal Firebrand provides a lot of aegis, regeneration, and they can provide stability. Renegade just gives out alacrity and might no matter what build you use. This makes firebrand much more useful than renegade for healing in fractals.

    Quickbrand offers those same boons, Even If not healer.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    I don't raid. The last several times I was in fractals, the healers were always Firebrands or Druids. Never once was it renegade.

    From a logical standpoint, this makes sense. The biggest issue with heal renegades is that their heals are focused in narrow areas and are anchored to the tablet. Heal Firebrand is much more mobile, and heals in a wider area. Also, Heal Firebrand provides a lot of aegis, regeneration, and they can provide stability. Renegade just gives out alacrity and might no matter what build you use. This makes firebrand much more useful than renegade for healing in fractals.

    Quickbrand offers those same boons, Even If not healer.

    Not really. The healbrand setup uses the shield, and includes a using all of the buff skills in f2 and f3 tomes. Power Quickbrand uses DPS utilities and weapons instead. Sure, there is some aegis, but not to the degree that healbrand puts out.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    I don't raid. The last several times I was in fractals, the healers were always Firebrands or Druids. Never once was it renegade.

    From a logical standpoint, this makes sense. The biggest issue with heal renegades is that their heals are focused in narrow areas and are anchored to the tablet. Heal Firebrand is much more mobile, and heals in a wider area. Also, Heal Firebrand provides a lot of aegis, regeneration, and they can provide stability. Renegade just gives out alacrity and might no matter what build you use. This makes firebrand much more useful than renegade for healing in fractals.

    And good bunch of fury (dps firebrand provides the missing 40%) and swiftness if you use Pack runes.

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  • Shade.8971Shade.8971 Member ✭✭

    Hybrid renegade and firebrand when in exp groups.
    Healbrand in pugs. I find most renegade healers have no idea how there healing works. Healbrand offers a much larger repetoire of utilities to fill the void chronos have left behind.
    Druid chrono in pugs is lol.

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If one needs to be a healer, renegads is always better choice.reason is that quickbrand provide very high burst and ok dps. Renegade provides no burst and very bad dps.
    With heal renegade there is no reason to die (but you need to actualy atack and stack). Power quickbrand have same utility options as healing version.

    Thag beeing said healing firebrand is better to carry atrocious players because his heals doesnt require them to atack and burst doesnt matter since phases will take hour anyway.

    Depends on what you are looking for and what your enviroment is like

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭

    Well both classes can be the healer pretty effectively. The most important thing is to communicate with your group. When you join, coordinate, make sure you only have 1 healer etc.

    Additionally, renegade's soul cleave summit is still pretty potent without any healing gear. And with the firebrand pumping out frequent aegis, not every group needs a healer. It should be noted, this is largely reliant on the group having high enough dps to kill everything before healing becomes an issue.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2019

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    If one needs to be a healer, renegads is always better choice.reason is that quickbrand provide very high burst and ok dps. Renegade provides no burst and very bad dps.

    While the renegeade is a very potent healer, the two main limiting factors to it are:

    • it's energy mechanic, which can get dicy when things go sour
    • it's healing tablet

    Yes, in an ideal world power quickbrand would be the damage dealer in the healer comp (right after no healer setup), but the reality is, both healers stacked up against each other: heal firebrand comes out on top easy.

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    With heal renegade there is no reason to die (but you need to actualy atack and stack). Power quickbrand have same utility options as healing version.

    There is never a reason to die. We are talking groups who need a healer though and stacking is not always given or easy. I had a 150KP Warrior wander off on me during Volcanic and Swamp T4 yesterday constanly demanding babysitting while I was running heal Firebrand in a PUG group. On heal rengeade I would have just left group.

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Thag beeing said healing firebrand is better to carry atrocious players because his heals doesnt require them to atack and burst doesnt matter since phases will take hour anyway.

    I wouldn't go as far as calling player atrocious, but yes, heal firebrand is a lot more forgiving. The other benefits I've already mentioned up top. I personally value the flexibility in the heal fb+ren composition over the higher damage in the heal ren+fb composition.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2019

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Renegade provides no burst and very bad dps.

    While fb has better dps and burst, ren doesn't have no burst. You can still get to 60-70k+ if you know what you are doing.
    Heal ren doesn't provide regen which is quite a big hit to healing also. If you survive with a heal ren you will probably survive with a diviner ren because the diviner ren could offer dps or way better utility.

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    Renegade provides no burst and very bad dps.

    While fb has better dps and burst, ren doesn't have no burst. You can still get to 60-70k+ if you know what you are doing.
    Heal ren doesn't provide regen which is quite a big hit to healing also. If you survive with a heal ren you will probably survive with a diviner ren because the diviner ren could offer dps or way better utility.

    when you use multihit spell in SS you are back to full. No regen needed :D

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    Renegade provides no burst and very bad dps.

    While fb has better dps and burst, ren doesn't have no burst. You can still get to 60-70k+ if you know what you are doing.
    Heal ren doesn't provide regen which is quite a big hit to healing also. If you survive with a heal ren you will probably survive with a diviner ren because the diviner ren could offer dps or way better utility.

    Well, I would certainly love to see that.
    From my perspective renegade is limited by energy so If you go for very high burst you lose some damage modifiers for the party

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2019

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    Renegade provides no burst and very bad dps.

    While fb has better dps and burst, ren doesn't have no burst. You can still get to 60-70k+ if you know what you are doing.
    Heal ren doesn't provide regen which is quite a big hit to healing also. If you survive with a heal ren you will probably survive with a diviner ren because the diviner ren could offer dps or way better utility.

    Well, I would certainly love to see that.
    From my perspective renegade is limited by energy so If you go for very high burst you lose some damage modifiers for the party

    Soulcleave summits dps potential is not that big. It helps with scholar and during longer phases for sure but it doesn't scale with modifiers. A ren bursting hard at skorvald for example is more overall dps than using kalla. Highly depends on fight length and party scholar uptime though.

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    when you use multihit spell in SS you are back to full. No regen needed :D

    A healing ren is also not needed for that.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2019

    The problem with using Firebrand as a healer is that you'll generally want most of your slots to be dedicated to buffs, mostly Quickness. This is different from Renegade, who for example has Alacrity in the F# keys/Ventari, or from Druid, whose heal skills are a weapon and a transform.

    I mean, you'll get some good milage out of the tome, but.

    This means that for the most part, Firebrand is better off as a support DPS with some complimentary healing and not the dedicated healer, while the other two aren't optimal at DPS and are better to take as a dedicated healer because not as much will be lost from it.

    That said Firebrand when fully geared for healing arguably has the most healing utility out of all the elites.


    The real answer is that alot of classes can do this, if a healer is needed, usually any of them will be fine, because it is not the healer's job to keep the group buffed, or to do damage to the enemy--so the number of effective classes and builds could be significant.

    Its just that sometimes these roles are combined, due to very specific possibilities, to eliminate the need for a 2nd support.

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  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2019

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    The problem with using Firebrand as a healer is that you'll generally want most of your slots to be dedicated to buffs, mostly Quickness. This is different from Renegade, who for example has Alacrity in the F# keys, or from Druid, whose heal skills are a weapon and a transform.

    Renegade is limited by energy, which is way more difficult to work with than dedicating your utility skills to your job: that of a healer. (which by the way, the renegade is too since he commits to at least 1 legend when healer so your argument is already faulty). As far as druid, bring a soulbeast if you want druid buffs with a Firebrand healer. Can you say the same for a similar amount of aegis and stability for Druid?

    Renegade runs into issues of keeping up alacrity when pressured to hard. Firebrand simply runs out of utility skills (but can pull tomes) but will provide constant quickness.

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    I mean, you'll get some good milage out of the tome, but.

    You don't use tomes for general healing. Those are hard oh kitten buttons. If you are using tomes for healing during encouters, you are doing it wrong or your group is terrible. When I run CMs as heal firebrand (if not running without healer) the only places I pull tomes are: Tome 3, skill 4 at Arkk at the start of the fight. That's it.

    Axe or Sword (for fury) with shield, staff or mace as second set. Heal mantra, quickness mantra and elite mantra leaves you with 2 free utility slots for more support.

    Staff 2 and staff 4 will keep the group up between providing aegis every 5-6 seconds. Shield 4 for additional aegis when switching to provide fury. Shield 5 as projectile destruction, minor cc and additional heal when triggered a second time.

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    This means that for the most part, Firebrand is better off as a support DPS with some complimentary healing and not the dedicated healer, while the other two aren't optimal at DPS and are better to take as a dedicated healer because not as much will be lost from it.

    Did you even bother to read what I wrote? Renegade loses free access to legends. That is not some minor loss. If renegade is not providing boon removal, some one else in the party has to take that. If renegade does not provide stability with dwarv, someone else has to (and quickbrand doesn't provide nearly as well stability as heal fb). Finally power alacrigrade can still drop Kalla elite if he notices the group is having issues (say when being slow on 99CM 2nd boss and the FB is kiting poison).

    EDIT:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    The real answer is that alot of classes can do this, if a healer is needed, usually any of them will be fine, because it is not the healer's job to keep the group buffed, or to do damage to the enemy--so the number of effective classes and builds could be significant.

    Its just that sometimes these roles are combined, due to very specific possibilities, to eliminate the need for a 2nd support.

    This is nonsense. Role compression in this game is a major factor WHY certain healers are prefered and used in party setups. It's the reason why tempest healers (which are insanely strong) or scrapper healers are not nearly used as much as druid, firebrand or renegade in pve.

    To simply go: well every class can heal, it's not their job to buff is strait up not understand how groups are built and designed in this game.

    This reminds me of the rengeade healer we once had in fractals. He literally was only a healer with 0 boon support. I didn't even say anything, the other 3 people booted the person out faster than I could literally write: say again?

  • zoomborg.9462zoomborg.9462 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2019

    Ren has to switch legs all the time to be effective like malyx (boon strip) or jalis (stab) and running heal means you're locked into ventari. Besides fb can heal way more consistently while giving a kitten ton of boons.
    In the end a group that puts safety ahead of dps shouldnt really care if they lose some dps over picking fb instead of ren for heals, i mean ren heal is quite clumsy, Kalla consumes a lot of energy and tablet can be hit or miss depending on the group. Meanwhile heal fb just steamrolls any content.

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zoomborg.9462 said:
    and running heal means you're locked into ventari.

    not true. u can do some healing just from staff, but u get a lot of healing from kalla as well. if u camp ventari only u play rene wrong. i can agree tho, that being forced to boonstrip or share stab, handicap ur healing

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2019

    @Safandula.8723 said:

    @zoomborg.9462 said:
    and running heal means you're locked into ventari.

    not true. u can do some healing just from staff, but u get a lot of healing from kalla as well. if u camp ventari only u play rene wrong. i can agree tho, that being forced to boonstrip or share stab, handicap ur healing

    True, but if you are not running Ventari, your advantage of healing power compared to the heal firebrand flips strong towards the heal firebrand in both output as well as convenience and application.

    The problem here is simple (and based in how revenant is designed):

    • heal firebrand becomes directly better in boon support and utility compared to his power counterpart (at the cost of damage, literally nothing else)
    • heal renegade becomes worse in terms of boons and utility compared to his power counterpart (with less a damage loss compared to guardian)

    That's on top of the ease of use of mantras and aegis healing versus legend swapping and tablet.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2019

    Firebrand is both the superior DPS as well as vastly superior Healer and Boon Support.

    In my experience Heal Ren isn't really worth it (especially with NPNG etc., it's just not flexible enough) and I personally would recommend either going no heal if you have a really good group and take your fun mostly out of efficiency, speed and being "META", or to take a hFB if you want consistently smooth and still quite fast runs, which especially with pugs also can carry one or two mediocre players as it makes everything substantially more relaxed and pleasant.

    All three comps work, if you have the ability to do so just try all three of them a couple times and see which one is for you.

    Personally, I don't see any reason not to run hFB, unless you really, really care about being 5 minutes faster or not for all of CM's+T4's and take personal pride in not needing a heal, as otherwise it's just so much nicer to play with.
    No heal often just feels a lot faster due being a lot more hectic to play and heal Ren just doesn't offer anything hFB doesn't do much better with more flexibility, while also allowing the more flexible Diviner Ren.

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  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭

    As someone with both support classes, I strictly play FB as healer and Renegade with Diviners and don't really use the tablet much. It's so much more limiting and just a downgrade in comparison to just sticking to FB heals. It doesn't even matter much if FB is better as DPS because the supports are not a large chunk of total team DPS anyways, and Renegade is so much more of a handicap in this regard if it decides to heal, that it's just better to allow it what little DPS it can have.

  • kasoki.5180kasoki.5180 Member ✭✭✭

    healbrand and quickbrand are using mostly different traits and utility skills. Thus taking healing skills while playing quickbrand or quickness skills while playing healbrand actually diminishes your quickness or healing output respectively. Thus, trying to be a hybrid of healbrand and quickbrand is more dependant on how skilled other players in your group are than any thing else. But then again, if you are playing with more skilled players this questions is kind of moot

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭

    @kasoki.5180 said:
    healbrand and quickbrand are using mostly different traits and utility skills. Thus taking healing skills while playing quickbrand or quickness skills while playing healbrand actually diminishes your quickness or healing output respectively. Thus, trying to be a hybrid of healbrand and quickbrand is more dependant on how skilled other players in your group are than any thing else. But then again, if you are playing with more skilled players this questions is kind of moot

    qFB needs 2 traits for quickness and 1 utility and heal. Heal fb would take the heal anyways so you wasted 1 utility and basically no traits since the other trait options arent . The elite is only needed if you have low boon duraton which the heal version never has. Not sure which fb traits you are talking about but the adept and master one needed for quickness are not really affecting the healing.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭

    @kasoki.5180 said:
    healbrand and quickbrand are using mostly different traits and utility skills. Thus taking healing skills while playing quickbrand or quickness skills while playing healbrand actually diminishes your quickness or healing output respectively. Thus, trying to be a hybrid of healbrand and quickbrand is more dependant on how skilled other players in your group are than any thing else. But then again, if you are playing with more skilled players this questions is kind of moot

    No point in trying to heal as Quickbrand (unless going into tome in really clutch moments, but if you have those a lot, you probably should run hFB), I agree.

    But really, hFB doesn't lose much at all by providing Quickness. On the contrary, when I don't have to do quickness as hFB, I feel like my slots are wasted on completely redundant skills and Traits which I don't need to keep people alive and topped up.

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • kasoki.5180kasoki.5180 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2019

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @kasoki.5180 said:
    healbrand and quickbrand are using mostly different traits and utility skills. Thus taking healing skills while playing quickbrand or quickness skills while playing healbrand actually diminishes your quickness or healing output respectively. Thus, trying to be a hybrid of healbrand and quickbrand is more dependant on how skilled other players in your group are than any thing else. But then again, if you are playing with more skilled players this questions is kind of moot

    qFB needs 2 traits for quickness and 1 utility and heal. Heal fb would take the heal anyways so you wasted 1 utility and basically no traits since the other trait options arent . The elite is only needed if you have low boon duraton which the heal version never has. Not sure which fb traits you are talking about but the adept and master one needed for quickness are not really affecting the healing.

    I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say.

    Quickbrand is taking Liberator's vow and Stalwart speed. Healbrand isn't. Quickbrand is taking Mantra of potence, Healbrand isn't. Healbrand often takes Mantra of Lore, while quickbrand doesn't. There is also a difference of Elite skill where healbrand can use Signet, while quickbrand can use Shout. And often do, depending on the fractal.

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @kasoki.5180 said:
    healbrand and quickbrand are using mostly different traits and utility skills. Thus taking healing skills while playing quickbrand or quickness skills while playing healbrand actually diminishes your quickness or healing output respectively. Thus, trying to be a hybrid of healbrand and quickbrand is more dependant on how skilled other players in your group are than any thing else. But then again, if you are playing with more skilled players this questions is kind of moot

    No point in trying to heal as Quickbrand (unless going into tome in really clutch moments, but if you have those a lot, you probably should run hFB), I agree.

    But really, hFB doesn't lose much at all by providing Quickness. On the contrary, when I don't have to do quickness as hFB, I feel like my slots are wasted on completely redundant skills and Traits which I don't need to keep people alive and topped up.

    I agree with you. But that depends on group you are playing with. I don't remember when I did a pug as healFB and thought to myself "wow i dont need these healing utility skills".

    The OP question was which one works better as support/healer hybrid. Not as pure healer. And firebrand in PUGs forces you to sacrifice a lot of quickness generation for healing utilities and traits if you want to do both quickness and healing

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2019

    @kasoki.5180 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @kasoki.5180 said:
    healbrand and quickbrand are using mostly different traits and utility skills. Thus taking healing skills while playing quickbrand or quickness skills while playing healbrand actually diminishes your quickness or healing output respectively. Thus, trying to be a hybrid of healbrand and quickbrand is more dependant on how skilled other players in your group are than any thing else. But then again, if you are playing with more skilled players this questions is kind of moot

    qFB needs 2 traits for quickness and 1 utility and heal. Heal fb would take the heal anyways so you wasted 1 utility and basically no traits since the other trait options arent . The elite is only needed if you have low boon duraton which the heal version never has. Not sure which fb traits you are talking about but the adept and master one needed for quickness are not really affecting the healing.

    I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say.

    Quickbrand is taking Liberator's vow and Stalwart speed. Healbrand isn't. Quickbrand is taking Mantra of potence, Healbrand isn't. Healbrand often takes Mantra of Lore, while quickbrand doesn't. There is also a difference of Elite skill where healbrand can use Signet, while quickbrand can use Shout. And often do, depending on the fractal.

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @kasoki.5180 said:
    healbrand and quickbrand are using mostly different traits and utility skills. Thus taking healing skills while playing quickbrand or quickness skills while playing healbrand actually diminishes your quickness or healing output respectively. Thus, trying to be a hybrid of healbrand and quickbrand is more dependant on how skilled other players in your group are than any thing else. But then again, if you are playing with more skilled players this questions is kind of moot

    No point in trying to heal as Quickbrand (unless going into tome in really clutch moments, but if you have those a lot, you probably should run hFB), I agree.

    But really, hFB doesn't lose much at all by providing Quickness. On the contrary, when I don't have to do quickness as hFB, I feel like my slots are wasted on completely redundant skills and Traits which I don't need to keep people alive and topped up.

    I agree with you. But that depends on group you are playing with. I don't remember when I did a pug as healFB and thought to myself "wow i dont need these healing utility skills".

    The OP question was which one works better as support/healer hybrid. Not as pure healer. And firebrand in PUGs forces you to sacrifice a lot of quickness generation for healing utilities and traits if you want to do both quickness and healing

    Both Quickbrand and Healbrand generally use Liberator's Vow + Weighty Terms.
    Quickbrand needs the Shout to upkeep Quickness, while hFB has enough bd to take the Stab mantra.

    When people refer to Heal Firebrand, they are referring to the heal and boon support FB that does quickness.

    "Pure heal" is rarely if ever run, especially not in fractals.
    Giving up providing permanent Quickness for 5 players for some redundant heals just isn't worth it.

    If you are struggling with healing otherwise, you probably haven't discovered the glory that is Bow of Truth yet, also don't forget to dodge into Allies to Heal them with Selfless Daring. You get perma Vigor and extra endurance regen from potions, and the heal is substantial.

    This is my build for Fractals and Raids. Utility 9 is your flexible slot, for Mantra of Lore with Afflicted, Wall of Reflection (with Master of Consecrations) for Bleed Fire, Stand your Ground for Skorvald, Chaos etc., and Hold the Line for general purpose.

    It provides all boons except Alacrity of course and way overheals already.
    For Fractals, you can swap in some Magi pieces bc of the free boon duration from potions, Raids full Harrier, and Minstrel if you need to tank.

    It's what people refer to as Heal Firebrand.

    (guess liking is still broken in the Forums, copy http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNAW3ensADlBhFBD2CBkCjF+BbPj2RPpZVoM0PALAMDKCA-jxhXQBAY/B6pbAhK/aoSQ/p+ToeCA66iAIKA/C-e)

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What Asum said, his build is exactly what I am running when going for heal firebrand. If running ONLY fractals you can replace some items with minstrel gear for some additional hitpoints or switch the Honor Grandmaster from Writ of Persistence to Force of Will when struggling with frailty. Otherwise that's the build you should be running.

  • kasoki.5180kasoki.5180 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2019

    I completely agree with that build for experienced groups. For inexepreienced groups this build will lack both quickness uptime and healing+condi cleanse. Its not about what you do as firebrand but more about party members. There is no way you can overheal with this build if your party members are not stacking and moving properly

  • At least better then what is on metabattle . Today I looked what they have because of the new patch and I haven't checked it for a longer time I was shocked to see a full minstrel heal FB for fractals there also they invested too much in extra cc(breakbar dmg). My build is very much like this above the only thing I keep minstrel in fractals are the accessories because I will over the cap of the boon duration otherwise because of the fractal potions conversion. When I think about it now I could simply get ride of the oil and using instead https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Potion_Of_Karka_Toughness

    Anyway this is what I would use in a raid like scenario : http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNAW3ensADlBhtDBGBDkCjlHCbfemPDoZvn5TGALA0A+AA-jxhXQBh6JAAg9HonuBEq8rhKB11FLwfq/QKA/GsB-e

    The 7 can be:
    "Bow of Truth" for extra heal
    "Stand your Ground" when you need extra stabi like in the Chaos fractal
    "Mantra of Lore" for condition cleaning like in Siren's Reef or Snowblind or when instabilities calling for it.

    A sword can also be used instead of axe you lose pull and gain mobility for it so counter institutive it sounds but I use sword in Siren's Reef when I get too often blown from the deck. I also have a greatsword since I got asked about it in 99cm (for bigger pull)

  • Shade.8971Shade.8971 Member ✭✭

    There are people who run healbrand with pure heals and little to no quickness uptime in fractals? You would have to be in seriously bad groups to do something silly like that. FB dosent even need a lot of boon duration to keep 100% quickness uptime unlike renegade alacrity. I run a mix of magi and harrier on my healbrand and very rarely run minstrel pieces. Quickness is never an issue except when I need the elite mantra for stab. But i swap more magi pieces over when i do that.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭

    skilled cms party - no one heal, simple t4 pugs - both.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2019

    No healer comp : soulceave's summit + breakrazor + aegis will heal to 100% and protect people.
    1 healer comp : who cares between ren or FB ? You'll lose more dps taking harrier FB but you'll get a stronger and easier cover of many boons, heals and utilities, like perma stab, more aegis, resistance, etc. Otherwise each are sufficient, with cleasing, anti-proj, heal, protection, regen ...

    For fractals challenge modes you don't necessarily need a healer, depends of your group, depends of instabilities; but others fractals it's not always that simple : You can see "uber" players on 100 CM but they die like id**ts at Amala, Svanir or Ice elemental, or you're dazed every seconds, or trashmobs + 300% dmg in the back, that kind of instabilities. So a healer, and bring stab, walls... well worth the cost of a hybrid DPS.

    Honestly I prefer one healer comp in PUG ; may be you lose 10 minutes but it works 90% of cases; with pretended elites PUG it's faster in theory, but ... sometimes there is this general entropy where everything seems fine but you wipe anyway; or the 400kp dude burden but he can't do his job properly and die alone in a corner, but you can't kick him because they're guildies.
    But time is relative. Like refuse a harrier FB but wait 45 minutes for a zerk one... I don't see the time saving.

    If you want to build a healer, IMO FB is better and most wanted. In any case you can give your armor to your ren. 1)
    If you want a support/dps, go for one of the two, but you won't be a "healer" to carry people.
    1) edit, I refer to healFB with quickness, I've never seen "pure" healer in fractals ?

  • You know, the irony of all this is that both healbrands and heal renegades use almost the exact same equipment. Full harriers heavy armor, monk runes, and staff. Guard use mace/sword/axe + shield, and renegades use sword + sword. So if you have one... you have the other.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2019

    Interesting to see everyone's different preferences. This is what I like to run if I feel healing is needed:

    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNAW7OnsADFChFBDkCjF+BDLAsDKCWFgw1EYPj+RPpA-jxRSQBiUJ4zuYBAY/hEqZwWPBQHQHV+NR1fCAcA8+75e3De/93f/93r7v/+7v/+7v/+7lCwvZWA-e

    Bane Signet sharing for party damage. Pack runes to cover any holes in boons and to allow me to run scepter. The 3rd utility slot is open to whatever you might need - condi removal, stab, healing, etc... Gear depends on your base AR. I need less concentration gear than shown myself as I have 207 AR like most Fractal Gods. Yet to run into a situation where I needed even more healing.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • zoomborg.9462zoomborg.9462 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2019

    @Safandula.8723 said:

    @zoomborg.9462 said:
    and running heal means you're locked into ventari.

    not true. u can do some healing just from staff, but u get a lot of healing from kalla as well. if u camp ventari only u play rene wrong. i can agree tho, that being forced to boonstrip or share stab, handicap ur healing

    Locked into ventari i mean Kalla/Ventari....kalla is a given in any build nowadays so i didnt think i would need to type it...... guess i was wrong.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2019

    @Henry.5713 said:
    Interesting to see everyone's different preferences. This is what I like to run if I feel healing is needed:

    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNAW7OnsADFChFBDkCjF+BDLAsDKCWFgw1EYPj+RPpA-jxRSQBiUJ4zuYBAY/hEqZwWPBQHQHV+NR1fCAcA8+75e3De/93f/93r7v/+7v/+7v/+7lCwvZWA-e

    Bane Signet sharing for party damage. Pack runes to cover any holes in boons and to allow me to run scepter. The 3rd utility slot is open to whatever you might need - condi removal, stab, healing, etc... Gear depends on your base AR. I need less concentration gear than shown myself as I have 207 AR like most Fractal Gods. Yet to run into a situation where I needed even more healing.

    Your build is basically a variation of the other one with a more aggressive setup while still not going full quickbrand. You lose access to permanent protecion on group (shield 4+Hold the Line). You are absolutely overstacked on boon duration and I am not sure Honorable Staff is worth it over Absolute Resolution given you are sacrificing aegis healing for lower staff cooldowns and the boon duration is useless with harrier gear (I know you said you are running less bd in game, just saying not sure the boon duraiton is needed from the trait). Radiance versus Virtues is a matter of choice, both work.

    The only issue I take with it is you do not provide fury, which in a Firebrigade comp would be for the firebrand to provide (Renegade provides alcrity and might, I run staff over mace because not every renegade keeps up 25 might). This is either covered by a member of your static or you are lacking 20% crit in group. Not sure how that is accounted for but without fury all your efforts for a more aggresive setup are for naught.

    Otherwise, sure if it works for you looks good enough.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954

    Fury is covered by Pack runes and the self-Fury traits or skills of the current META builds. The only one not at 100% Fury is me on my Healbrand.
    Protection is done through the shield as well as the symbol trait. Some is covered by the Renegade but that could be taken care of by the third and empty utility slot or prestacking it.
    The gear stats I used to show the build is not what I have in the game. My actual gear is min-maxed around having as much Healing Power combined with the full boon duration. Sorry, if I didn't make that clear. It is a particular mix.
    The idea behind the staff trait is gaining overall increased healing as that concentration allows me to swap quite a bit of gear towards something like cleric and there are the additional lowered cooldowns with staff. I prefer increased healing from staff (cooldowns and values), Regen, symbols, F2, dodges, etc. over the aegis heal but people are free to disagree. That is a personal preferance at best.

    And yes, this works rather well for me.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2019

    @Henry.5713 said:
    Fury is covered by Pack runes and the self-Fury traits or skills of the current META builds. The only one not at 100% Fury is me on my Healbrand.

    I usually go with Discretize builds and most of their meta builds do not provide fury (though that might have changed since they have not been updated for the last patch). In those builds Firebrigade Guardian provides quickness and fury, renegade provides might and alacrity. Obviously if you prestack with a lot of fury and fights are short enough it becomes a non issue, but then you wouldn't be running heal firebrand but rather quickbrand I'd believe.

    I'll have to keep an eye on that and see how much fury we overstack or if we have fury issues without me taking axe/sword.

    @Henry.5713 said:
    Protection is done through the shield as well as the symbol trait. Some is covered by the Renegade but that could be taken care of by the third and empty utility slot or prestacking it.

    True, if I was to adapt my build to be more offensive I would probably switch Radiance for Virtues and use Bane Signet on the flex slot. I might do that later actually. Virtues is mostly useful when drawing tomes, given I usually don't use tomes and the passive healing is not needed, a more offensive approach might be nice.

    @Henry.5713 said:
    The gear stats I used to show the build is not what I have in the game. My actual gear is min-maxed around having as much Healing Power combined with the full boon duration. Sorry, if I didn't make that clear. It is a particular mix.

    No, I assumed as much. In that case, and if you have access to full fury, sure it makes sense to take Honorable Staff if you have accounted for that. Makes your build a rather interesting hybrdid between full heal FB and quickbrand. 240 stats is nothing to sneez at, my guess is you can camp scepter for damage and then switch to staff occasionally to either heal or refresh might.

    @Henry.5713 said:
    The idea behind the staff trait is gaining overall increased healing as that concentration allows me to swap quite a bit of gear towards something like cleric and there are the additional lowered cooldowns with staff. I prefer increased healing from staff (cooldowns and values), Regen, symbols, F2, dodges, etc. over the aegis heal but people are free to disagree. That is a personal preferance at best.

    That makes sense. I might have to give the trait a try to see how it compares. With 6.5 seconds of cd on staff 2, the healing would be quite potent. The healing of aegis is obviously more useful when required to weapon swap more.

    I might give your build a try next run with my static just to compare. It seems less reliant on weapon swapping at the cost of fury with more potant healing from staff.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Henry.5713 said:
    Fury is covered by Pack runes and the self-Fury traits or skills of the current META builds. The only one not at 100% Fury is me on my Healbrand.

    I usually go with Discretize builds and most of their meta builds do not provide fury (though that might have changed since they have not been updated for the last patch). In those builds Firebrigade Guardian provides quickness and fury, renegade provides might and alacrity. Obviously if you prestack with a lot of fury and fights are short enough it becomes a non issue, but then you wouldn't be running heal firebrand but rather quickbrand I'd believe.

    I'll have to keep an eye on that and see how much fury we overstack or if we have fury issues without me taking axe/sword.

    @Henry.5713 said:
    Protection is done through the shield as well as the symbol trait. Some is covered by the Renegade but that could be taken care of by the third and empty utility slot or prestacking it.

    True, if I was to adapt my build to be more offensive I would probably switch Radiance for Virtues and use Bane Signet on the flex slot. I might do that later actually. Virtues is mostly useful when drawing tomes, given I usually don't use tomes and the passive healing is not needed, a more offensive approach might be nice.

    @Henry.5713 said:
    The gear stats I used to show the build is not what I have in the game. My actual gear is min-maxed around having as much Healing Power combined with the full boon duration. Sorry, if I didn't make that clear. It is a particular mix.

    No, I assumed as much. In that case, and if you have access to full fury, sure it makes sense to take Honorable Staff if you have accounted for that. Makes your build a rather interesting hybrdid between full heal FB and quickbrand. 240 stats is nothing to sneez at, my guess is you can camp scepter for damage and then switch to staff occasionally to either heal or refresh might.

    @Henry.5713 said:
    The idea behind the staff trait is gaining overall increased healing as that concentration allows me to swap quite a bit of gear towards something like cleric and there are the additional lowered cooldowns with staff. I prefer increased healing from staff (cooldowns and values), Regen, symbols, F2, dodges, etc. over the aegis heal but people are free to disagree. That is a personal preferance at best.

    That makes sense. I might have to give the trait a try to see how it compares. With 6.5 seconds of cd on staff 2, the healing would be quite potent. The healing of aegis is obviously more useful when required to weapon swap more.

    I might give your build a try next run with my static just to compare. It seems less reliant on weapon swapping at the cost of fury with more potant healing from staff.

    DH gains Fury from their trap, Soulbeast from their Beast abilities, Daredevils have something like two traits, Weavers have the Blast-Field trait as well as a Air trait that provides Fury.
    "Fury has never been less of a problem" is what I am saying. And you are still free to run an Axe over Scepter if want to feel safe. You will lose some Might but then Pack covers Might and you have a lower cooldown on staff, etc.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭

    Mantra of Potence traited with Weighty terms + Empowering might + a Ren that can spam F2, generally you don't have issue to maintain 25 mights, so you don't need scepter/staff for it specifically. It's even easier with runes of pack of course, at the small price of less healing or less dps for Ren.
    If your Ren don't know about f2-f4 skills, yeah you should take staff. Or for heal, but an aegis or shield #5 + dodges would be faster.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2019

    None of any of these healing builds are "needed" strictly speaking. I go with my build on the worse of days (instabilities and certain fractals) where I quite like to have staff but prefer to stay more offensive with Bane Signet sharing and Pack while others feel the need to go with Monk runes, Virtues, staff and possibly more. Not even running any healing outside of those days myself where it is just plain old qBrand for me.
    It would really depend on the amount of healing people are aiming for. If you think neither of the great benefits of staff (the healing and might) is required then you are free to run whatever you choose to.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • on pug, its fb. Thats what i have seen. on static, i don't know.

  • Kahlan.7249Kahlan.7249 Member ✭✭
    edited July 26, 2019

    in fractals in NA, it's almost always the firebrand

    and anyone who's played healbrand to some sort of competency knows it's so, so good for pugging and offers so much defensive utility + indirect offensive utility in the form of ignoring mechanics/stab

    mai trin farm 2k19, the place to be--- sparky skell alex radomir ghastly lisa frank qante mercy bacon cat aj nay ++ and yours truly, me :')

  • @Shade.8971 said:
    There are people who run healbrand with pure heals and little to no quickness uptime in fractals? You would have to be in seriously bad groups to do something silly like that. FB dosent even need a lot of boon duration to keep 100% quickness uptime unlike renegade alacrity. I run a mix of magi and harrier on my healbrand and very rarely run minstrel pieces. Quickness is never an issue except when I need the elite mantra for stab. But i swap more magi pieces over when i do that.

    I have seen a few who didn't gave quickness it most noticed when the team has a lot less dps most of the time things fail or he/she got kicked from the group.
    I can only suspect that people who do that only copy past the wvw built instead of using a proper built.

    About quickness after I read your post I took a lock how long the remaining duration is after a fight its about 10-20 second there is some room to cut short but not that much when you consider that in this time frame people need to spread out and do mechanics which require dps.

  • kasoki.5180kasoki.5180 Member ✭✭✭

    Pure healer build was previously used. It was never meta, but it was used several balance patches ago before firebrand's quickness uptime got buffed.
    You could see those players around quite often and no, they weren't kicked out of the group. You could usually recognise them by using Signet of Courage very often or by using Merciful Intervention, Signet of Mercy or something in that flavour.
    Build was mostly played by people who enjoyed guardian healer, not by people who wanted to play meta builds. But it did exist during Chrono+Druid fractal meta, and it was used by people who wanted to play alternative to druid mostly

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