Compared with Mesmer, Rangers have more advantages in all aspects.Why do more people hate Mesmer? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Compared with Mesmer, Rangers have more advantages in all aspects.Why do more people hate Mesmer?

From my game experience and WKI data(I believe that data can't lie.), Rangers have an advantage over Mesmer. Hope I'm wrong

Comments

  • @Derm.4932 said:

    Hope I'm wrong

    you are

    Can you prove my mistake by real data?

  • @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @ZeteCommander.4937 said:

    @Derm.4932 said:

    Hope I'm wrong

    you are

    Can you prove my mistake by real data?

    You haven't proven anything yourself. If you are going to make these claims then you would first need to provide proof to your claims in your topic title and OP. All you have provided is a statement about anecdotal information , your personal experience, and a statement saying they have more advantages because wiki without any real of evidence or analysis of why.

    You've provided very little/close to nothing to back yourself up.

    Before that, I've listed the abilities of soulbeast that are better than Mesmer in posts complaining about mirage.Even now some players still think mirages are too powerful.Unfortunately, they never specify why mirages are better than other professions.I just want to know what I got it wrong, that's all.

  • ZeteCommander.4937ZeteCommander.4937 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2019

    @Eurantien.4632 said:
    ^ In addition with this guy. Mesmer is God Tier in PvP when played right. It has the highest skill ceiling which means the highest potential to be good. It also has a relatively high skill floor compared to ranger. A ranger on the other hand has a low skill floor and skill ceiling. This means it's easier for a bad player to be good at ranger and beat a bad mesmer player than vice-versa. However, at the highest tiers of play, it's easier for a great mesmer to beat a great ranger than vice-versa. The reason for this is because the mesmer (mirage) has an unparalleled tool kit and class mechanic that gives them all the equipment necessary to be really really successful. Ranger has the tools to stomp bad players with longbow really really easily and anyone can do it but these tools fall apart when facing really good players. Ranger does not have the tools to truly compete at the highest tiers of play due to poor class mechanics and actually an inferior kit when compared with other classes.

    So really, you're just not good enough. Because mesmers have the advantage over ranger. Hands down. Just got to take a gander at top PvP players, and comps, to see.

    The Rangers have all the abilities except for the deformations and flashes. They also have higher data. The biggest difference may be cloning, but I don't think cloning will interfere with higher-level players.
    I saw mortrialus mention many times that there are fewer mesmer in high-level games.I don't think it's unreasonable. Clone is a nightmare for inexperienced players, but for experienced players, it is the most serious weakness of mesmer

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2019

    @ZeteCommander.4937 said:
    Can you prove my mistake by real data?

    Copied and pasta'd from a post I wrote yesterday:


    I'm a multiclasser in high plat on NA (r2 and r4). In other words, I play ALL classes at this rating. I can say from personal experience, playing as/with/against mesmers for years, that the amount of effort it takes to be effective on this class is disproportionately low in comparison to the effort it takes to play every other class in the game at the same level.

    I posted this screenshot on one of my threads where I went 26-0 in unranked during my second time playing berserker power mirage. I also play the CI build and the traditional Dueling/Illusions/Mirage condi build in ranked and they also work extremely well.

    There are so many mesmer mains downplaying the strengths of this class. I see them whining on the mesmer forums saying stuff like: we've been nerfed the hardest, can't deal damage, don't have mobility, are worst class in the game etc. etc.

    It's ridiculous. I played these so-called "nerfed and unviable" builds a few days ago on stream and farmed players in ranked going 16-1, 9-1, etc. etc. back to back while winning/kiting outnumbered easily because of how much damage/cc/survivability/mobility/utility mesmers have access to. The only matchups a mesmer could ever lose are against s/d thieves that never miss their steals, other mesmers, and/or holosmiths IF the mesmer plays terribly and stays in melee range on the node. Funnily enough, even if they "lose" the fight, the mesmer can just blink away, escape with stealth, cc any counterpressure or attempt to chase, and block/blind/invuln/distort until their cooldowns come back.

    The class is literally ez-mode and probably the most overpowered and reliable carry in ranked if you want to completely roll over 99% of the players you come across.

    If the links don't work, here they are in order:

    1. https://imgur.com/a/HXmRGKS
    2. https://imgur.com/a/d9vHNHS
    3. https://i.imgur.com/Oo5b1hQ.png?1
    4. https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/82223/wow-this-new-patch-is-it-me-or-all-mesmer-builds-are-right-out-owned-underwhelming
    5. https://clips.twitch.tv/TsundereAbstruseDumplings4Head

  • Derm.4932Derm.4932 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2019

    I saw mortrialus mention many times that there are fewer mesmer in high-level games.I don't think it's unreasonable. Clone is a nightmare for inexperienced players, but for experienced players, it is the most serious weakness of illusionists.

    Do you actually know any experienced players? I'm not talking about hurr durr im plat2 players - I'm talking about actual MAT winners and the like, because I guarantee you almost all, if not all of them, share the opinion that the current form of CI Mirage is stronger than the current form of Ranger.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2019

    @Derm.4932 said:

    I saw mortrialus mention many times that there are fewer mesmer in high-level games.I don't think it's unreasonable. Clone is a nightmare for inexperienced players, but for experienced players, it is the most serious weakness of illusionists.

    Do you actually know any experienced players? I'm not talking about hurr durr im plat2 players - I'm talking about actual MAT winners and the like, because I guarantee you almost all, if not all of them, share the opinion that the current form of CI Mirage is stronger than the current form of Ranger.

    **Let me rephrase: The basic comp is rev, scrouge, firebrand and two sidenoders. Many teams used 2x rev and warrior, some used 2x rev and holo etc. There were only some teams using mirages.
    What? A lot of good mesmer mains in EU (who still play gw2 pvp) changed to other classes in mATs. Flandre even made a power tier list before last patch.
    Here's the list: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/75784/tier-list-for-competitive-at

  • msalakka.4653msalakka.4653 Member ✭✭
    edited July 23, 2019

    It has nothing to do with dis/advantages. Fighting a person who doesn't replicate themselves and teleport and stealth around is easier. It requires less focus and adjusting to changing battle conditions.
    Mesmer and Mirage are very different things, though.

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2019

    what ranger and what mesmer. there are diffrent builds.
    While ranger builds may be just strong, there are just badly balanced, while mesmers just have cancer gameplay.
    in current state, thiefs and mesmers will never get a proper balance, due to way they are designed

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • Eurantien.4632Eurantien.4632 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2019

    Idk what else to say. Ranger has only been good when it's been absolutely busted numbers wise, like old boonbeast.

    People are complaining that EU leaderboards top 3 is all mesmers. CI Condi mesmer is really effective for how easy it is. This isn't even the strongest build. People talk about flandre like he's some expert, when he's just a forum warrior that likes to claim mesmer is bad while people are in queues performing very well with condi CI.

    Meanwhile over in NA, we've got Zeromis playing power who hasnt even lost a match in the last like 250 tournament games he's played. Data wise, there are way more Rangers than power mesmers. Data wise, ranger beats power mesmer more often than not. Data wise, power mesmer is more useful in a team (tournament) match. Data wise, Power mesmer played by someone good has no losing match ups.

    Therefore, for bad players ranger wins. For the best players, mesmer wins.

    Condi mes vs ranger, ranger can counterbuild and win. Bad Power mes vs any ranger build, and ranger will win. Both 1v1 and in a teamfight. A good powe mes vs any ranger build or player and ranger will lose.

    Thing is, there's only one player who plays power mes well enough.

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    "In all aspects"?

    Condi Mesmer is deadlier than Ranger (DoT vs DoT). Mesmer can stack more and deadlier.

    Also Mesmer can produce more targetable "companions" than ranger.

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  • Derm.4932Derm.4932 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2019

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @Derm.4932 said:

    I saw mortrialus mention many times that there are fewer mesmer in high-level games.I don't think it's unreasonable. Clone is a nightmare for inexperienced players, but for experienced players, it is the most serious weakness of illusionists.

    Do you actually know any experienced players? I'm not talking about hurr durr im plat2 players - I'm talking about actual MAT winners and the like, because I guarantee you almost all, if not all of them, share the opinion that the current form of CI Mirage is stronger than the current form of Ranger.

    **Let me rephrase: The basic comp is rev, scrouge, firebrand and two sidenoders. Many teams used 2x rev and warrior, some used 2x rev and holo etc. There were only some teams using mirages.
    What? A lot of good mesmer mains in EU (who still play gw2 pvp) changed to other classes in mATs. Flandre even made a power tier list before last patch.
    Here's the list: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/75784/tier-list-for-competitive-at

    lol dude, you're literally comparing classes BEFORE the balance patch(two balance patches, if you count the May 14 nerfs to Rev), and BEFORE CI Mirage was even a known build. There is a reason I put the word CURRENT in my post.

    And FYI, this is not a "Mesmer is bad" argument, this is a
    "Ranger is better than Mesmer is ALL aspects" argument. Even your post using outdated balance does not state anywhere that Ranger is superior to Mes.
    Assuming CI Mirage is not hotfix nerfed, come back to me in a few days and remind me how many Mesmers are in the upcoming MAT finals and how many Rangers there are.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Derm.4932 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @Derm.4932 said:

    I saw mortrialus mention many times that there are fewer mesmer in high-level games.I don't think it's unreasonable. Clone is a nightmare for inexperienced players, but for experienced players, it is the most serious weakness of illusionists.

    Do you actually know any experienced players? I'm not talking about hurr durr im plat2 players - I'm talking about actual MAT winners and the like, because I guarantee you almost all, if not all of them, share the opinion that the current form of CI Mirage is stronger than the current form of Ranger.

    **Let me rephrase: The basic comp is rev, scrouge, firebrand and two sidenoders. Many teams used 2x rev and warrior, some used 2x rev and holo etc. There were only some teams using mirages.
    What? A lot of good mesmer mains in EU (who still play gw2 pvp) changed to other classes in mATs. Flandre even made a power tier list before last patch.
    Here's the list: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/75784/tier-list-for-competitive-at

    lol dude, you're literally comparing classes BEFORE the balance patch(two balance patches, if you count the May 14 nerfs to Rev), and BEFORE CI Mirage was even a known build. There is a reason I put the word CURRENT in my post.

    And FYI, this is not a "Mesmer is bad" argument, this is a
    "Ranger is better than Mesmer is ALL aspects" argument. Even your post using outdated balance does not state anywhere that Ranger is superior to Mes.

    Ci mirage was known for a while now, just peeps played more fun builds that got nerfed. now we stuck with this junk.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭

    @Derm.4932 said:
    lol dude, you're literally comparing classes BEFORE the balance patch(two balance patches, if you count the May 14 nerfs to Rev), and BEFORE CI Mirage was even a known build. There is a reason I put the word CURRENT in my post.

    And FYI, this is not a "Mesmer is bad" argument, this is a
    "Ranger is better than Mesmer is ALL aspects" argument. Even your post using outdated balance does not state anywhere that Ranger is superior to Mes.
    Assuming CI Mirage is not hotfix nerfed, come back to me in a few days and remind me how many Mesmers are in the upcoming MAT finals and how many Rangers there are.

    I've been "overworking" myself in forums lately, I need to calm down :(

  • Vincenzo.3145Vincenzo.3145 Member ✭✭✭

    Everyone will always hate on whatever kills them. Especially when they don't play it. In any game.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2019

    @Vincenzo.3145 said:
    Everyone will always hate on whatever kills them. Especially when they don't play it. In any game.

    Especially when they are cluless about what kills them, I knew a thief-main (in game/discord but got tired of his qq xD) that never played anything but thief, he dont even read his own skils(that isnt meta) and played the game like 3+ years, he dont know any mesmer or any other class skill or their mechanic,but whine its the most broken spec in the game an poor thieves have no chances to win them.... Like in another thread some thief-main said mesmer had about 15+ blinds before blind-shatter nerf, simply because after all these years he still dont know how trait was working before nerf. I guess thats the case for 95% of this forum

  • Delofasht.4231Delofasht.4231 Member ✭✭✭

    Well, when dueling a ranger where you cannot LoS them, it generally ends in a loss. If however, there is even one thing to break LoS, it is almost always a win. People hate Mesmer because of clones and health bar spam, too many health bars and targeting options, oh and damage coming from clones.

    These are actually valid complaints, and along the lines of Phantasm complaints of the past. Unfortunately, like Phantasms, if they decide to change this core feature of the profession and it’s elite specializations, they will have to adjust how every single skill and tons of traits work. Given how skills and traits actually seem to be coded in this game, that may mean a great deal of work. This doesn’t even touch on runes and the like that count pets.

    My proposition is basically to remove clones from being targetable, having health bars, and taking or doing damage. I have made this comment many times at this point, but not everyone has read it, so it gets repeated in many threads unfortunately. The idea is that target breaks would then make the Mesmer health bar disappear and become untargetable for a brief duration. Thus the gameplay of clones for deception could still exist utilizing stealth and target breaks, but the vulnerability of a resource that can be destroyed is gone. Also the damage coming from clones no longer exists, abilities that used to rely on doing damage from clones, including shatters, would be adjusted to come from the Mesmer on next attack or be scaling with the number of active clones up at a time (in reference to Winds of Chaos and other condition applying skills that scaled with number of clones, ambushes included). The shift in damage from clones to active attacks from the Mesmer make defenses used by enemies more relevant.

    This proposition would completely change the reliability of skills, augmenting their damage by way of an increase consistency. Thus the clones become the visual tell to the enemy of the attack that is coming. Major visual change would be clones run to the Mesmer when shattered, rather than at the enemy, effects are applied on next Mesmer attack. Huge benefits to both play and counter play, in my opinion. The focus is on making Mesmer skills useable in all modes equally and allowing every build to be viable. Currently many builds simply cannot be played in some game modes because clones will never reach the targets because the target is either dead by the time they get there, or the clones themselves die to AoE.

    So going back to the reason people hate Mesmer... because clones make the Mesmer profession inconsistent and volatile. If things were predictable and consistent, players are less likely to hate it. Note also, that changing clones would also make the profession into something that could be balanced by numbers, currently they cannot adjust them meaningfully due to a lack of data on how much damage they will do in a given situation. Clone design currently limits the potential of the profession due to reliability and consistency.

    There is no shortcut fix, and doing anything short of a rework on it will always leave the profession feeling lacking.

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