Raiding as a 25 man squad? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Raiding as a 25 man squad?

Rico.6873Rico.6873 Member ✭✭✭

The game was designed for a group of 5 people. (buffs, traits, etc)

Raids where designed for a group of 10 people. (mechanic wise)

Anet will never release raiding for 5/25 people but I'm just wondering how raiding would be if it could be played as a 5/25 group

Would it be just as popular as fractals?
Or would it divide the playerbase too much around raiding/fractals?

Would the balance changes made in the past be different if raiding had more options size wise?

I'm not asking for a 5/25 raid experience, I merely wanna know how it could have turned out if anet did release raiding with a 5/10/25 option.

Now fire away how mad this thought is ^^

Comments

  • I would have to agree that it probably couldn't work with raiding without ruining the raid difficulty. However... Dungeons need a rework, and are not so difficulty gated. A small rework to Dungeons to allow 5-25 player squads instead of parties, and add some off the wall and riotous scaling for the larger groups... that could be enough reason for Anet to give Dungeons a pretty straightforward rework. Anet could turn Dungeons up to 11 and make another rush event out of it.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    From what I have heard, any changes to dungeons would require them to rebuild them so it wouldn’t be a small change.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭

    That could potentially be good idea for easy mode raids but it would need something like a queue or hot join with wait list.

  • @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    From what I have heard, any changes to dungeons would require them to rebuild them so it wouldn’t be a small change.

    They've reiterated that on numerous occasions. The original dungeons were written with the original authoring tools, and not everyone there can make those tools do their bidding efficiently (or at all).

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • Lexi.1398Lexi.1398 Member ✭✭✭

    25 people with proper builds in one place at one time? xD

    Compositions might be interesting, i just doubt that they'd /ever/ be completed if these raid bosses had the same difficulty as they do now. Lower the difficulty and that's not really raids - might as well be open world, in fact there is one event i know of that has a soft dps check in open world and that's the ziya escort in jahai. (soft - not really unviable to be done by unorganised peeps, but it'll be tight.)

  • I would love to see a frac with a buncha people storming into the ship in Siren Reef.

    That'd be fun, although I don't expect it to be a "norm" of pve content.

  • We had something like this. Pre-nerf serpent's Ire was effectively an open world raid. Nobody did it, though, because it demanded full cooperation from its players and a series of skills used nowhere else.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Krzysztof.5973Krzysztof.5973 Member ✭✭✭

    I swear all your ideas are... unique... also 25man adding raids when veteran community is quitting after ERP. You have to stop with these ideas. Raiders are moving on. SC is moving onto another game. Just get over it.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    We had something like this. Pre-nerf serpent's Ire was effectively an open world raid. Nobody did it, though, because it demanded full cooperation from its players and a series of skills used nowhere else.

    This.

    It also shared some similarities with raids. Fail the mechanic on any of the adds and every one fails, the entire meta. Given how it was nearly impossible to get the breakbars down even with organzied groups of PUGs (because of scaling and some people still not knowing what cc is), the event was rarely completed and eventually abandoned.

    I managed to complete it twice pre nerf and that was during off hours where not as many players were present, which reduced the scaling and made each individuals performance matter more.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2019

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:
    I swear all your ideas are... unique... also 25man adding raids when veteran community is quitting after ERP. You have to stop with these ideas. Raiders are moving on. SC is moving onto another game. Just get over it.

    Can’t blame them when the game’s target audience is casual gamers and non-gamers who get milked in the gem store over cosmetics. It’s one of the reasons why it’s difficult to pull players from other games. A 25 player raid isn’t going to succeed because of this.

  • Rico.6873Rico.6873 Member ✭✭✭

    mhh should stated the 5 man raid team in the title...
    I have heard of people who managed to 5 man raid bosses

    Though I do remember Vale Guardian have his own squad content in the bloodstone map
    His death is needed for a legendary trinket

    Wish we had more raid bosses in the pve maps so we could practice their mechanics

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭

    it is not easy to find 9 people to do something that not is on trend - 25 is unreal and potentially dead content.

  • yusayu.3629yusayu.3629 Member ✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:
    it is not easy to find 9 people to do something that not is on trend - 25 is unreal and potentially dead content.

    Huh? Are we playing differnet games? Every evening there's about 10-20 squads in LFG looking for raids. Not including all the guilds you can join to do them regularly.

    25-Man raids would probably not fit the game. I enjoy my contribution actually mattering in a raid.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭

    @yusayu.3629 said:
    Huh? Are we playing differnet games?

    I think yes, because as for my look I see that curretn raids is to hard, and if we scale it till 25 it will be unplayble at all.
    You can check statistic how many players kill fist boss on w1, and last on last wing.

  • yusayu.3629yusayu.3629 Member ✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:

    @yusayu.3629 said:
    Huh? Are we playing differnet games?

    I think yes, because as for my look I see that curretn raids is to hard, and if we scale it till 25 it will be unplayble at all.
    You can check statistic how many players kill fist boss on w1, and last on last wing.

    That's because there's always casual players, especially in MMOs. Current raids are much too easy for the most part.

    Raids are not supposed to be for everyone. If you're not ready to spend the time to learn to play your class and learn the bosses and mechanics, don't raid.

    25-player raids wouldn't really be much harder, but it'd depend. If all 25 players had specific mechanics they had to do and which fail the raid if one of them fails (like Dhuum g), that'd obviously make them much harder.

    As I said, I prefer having actual impact in my raid group, regardless of what I play. 25-man raids don't really provide that.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2019

    @yusayu.3629 said:
    Current raids are much too easy for the most part.

    and again we play different games .. As I see our guild static possible kill escort on w1, and most of them is unreal ..

    Raids are not supposed to be for everyone.

    and now we play same game ! and if we scale that "not for every one" content - that we get ?

    25-player raids wouldn't really be much harder, but it'd depend. If all 25 players had specific mechanics they had to do and which fail the raid if one of them fails (like Dhuum g), that'd obviously make them much harder.

    How I know from my 100 mates the Dhuum is killed by 3 players .. So should we care and push content for some %x of existing 3% ?

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lokh.2695 said:
    It's hard enough to find 9 other playerrs to raid with these days, having to find 24 other players wouldn't help at all.

    This. Having to find 9 other like-minded people to raid with is actually probably the main barrier of entry for that content. Upping that requirement to 25-player squad size is very unlikely to be met with much enthusiasm, even within the current raid community (and even more unlikely to persuade anyone to start raiding).

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭

    It would be fine if something similiar to the "Flexible Raid" System from WoW was added to have raids with more people. (Flexible Raid = Scaling depending on amount of players participating in the raid, so that you aren't forced to bring 10/25 people, instead you can also bring any amount of players inbetween)

    Like the others have already mentioned, a forced 25man raid would be hard to fill.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 27, 2019

    Some raids would be really hard with 25ppl 😅

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • yusayu.3629yusayu.3629 Member ✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:

    @yusayu.3629 said:
    Current raids are much too easy for the most part.

    and again we play different games .. As I see our guild static possible kill escort on w1, and most of them is unreal ..

    But that's purely a L2P issue.

    Raids are not supposed to be for everyone.

    and now we play same game ! and if we scale that "not for every one" content - that we get ?

    There is challenge mode right now, it's just that the rewards for that are worthless.

    25-player raids wouldn't really be much harder, but it'd depend. If all 25 players had specific mechanics they had to do and which fail the raid if one of them fails (like Dhuum g), that'd obviously make them much harder.

    How I know from my 100 mates the Dhuum is killed by 3 players .. So should we care and push content for some %x of existing 3% ?

    About 7% of players (15,310 of 218,838) have killed Dhuum according to gw2efficiency. I'd say that's a pretty good number. It's supposed to be hard, you're supposed to have to learn to play your class. If you don't want to - there's a kitten of other content in the game for you.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭

    @yusayu.3629 said:
    About 7% of players (15,310 of 218,838) have killed Dhuum

    this is number of all, as I say in normal, not hardcore, guild the % is 3.

    There is challenge mode right now, it's just that the rewards for that are worthless.

    challenge mode is planimum pvp, tournaments, ans wvw .. don't see any challenge in 25, I see dead content, that will be completed by 3% and forgotten.

  • TanksK.4795TanksK.4795 Member ✭✭✭

    It would be fun, but the bosses' arenas are designed for 10 and too small for 25. Maybe shrink the players to be smaller like Fragility in fractals? lol

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TanksK.4795 said:
    It would be fun, but the bosses' arenas are designed for 10 and too small for 25. Maybe shrink the players to be smaller like Fragility in fractals? lol

    25 players on small arena would be funny tho. Think about Matthias orange "time bombs" for example 😅

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 29, 2019

    Your answer pretty much depends on what these raids would be meant to be:

    1. Something along the lines of simply allowing 25 players to enter the current raids to kind of turn them into easy modes / fun modes. Such raids would probably draw quite a few players at first but end up on a similar spot to an META farm... not too popular unless it provided the highest rewards.

    Or

    1. Competitive raids on a similar difficulty of the current raids but on a (much) larger scale. Requiring a well organized large group which would be much harder and far more tedious to maintain than our current statics and with even less likelihood of successful PuG attempts on the hardest of bosses.

    Both seem rather unlikely in a game that does not focus on raid content.
    Only the most hardcore of raiders would bother to maintain said 25-man statics in this game. Already hard enough to do so with 10 players, let alone 25. Most of us would probably prefer 5-man raids over anything larger than 10-man if given the choice.
    Anyone else (the majority of non-raiders) is far more likely to stick to Open World content for their farming needs unless those "easy modes" vastly outshone Open World content in terms of easy rewards.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • Rico.6873Rico.6873 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 29, 2019

    @Henry.5713 said:
    Your answer pretty much depends on what these raids would be meant to be:

    1. Something along the lines of simply allowing 25 players to enter the current raids to kind of turn them into easy modes / fun modes. Such raids would probably draw quite a few players at first but end up on a similar spot to an META farm... not too popular unless it provided the highest rewards.

    Or

    1. Competitive raids on a similar difficulty of the current raids but on a (much) larger scale. Requiring a well organized large group which would be much harder and far more tedious to maintain than our current statics and with even less likelihood of successful PuG attempts on the hardest of bosses.

    Both seem rather unlikely in a game that does not focus on raid content.
    Only the most hardcore of raiders would bother to maintain said 25-man statics in this game. Already hard enough to do so with 10 players, let alone 25. Most of us would probably prefer 5-man raids over anything larger than 10-man if given the choice.
    Anyone else (the majority of non-raiders) is far more likely to stick to Open World content for their farming needs unless those "easy modes" vastly outshone Open World content in terms of easy rewards.

    Getting a 25 man raid would be quite easy with a queue system, Just look at FFXIV
    Setting up the roles would be awkward at the beginning though because GW2 doesnt really do/have roles
    But once that hurdle has been tackled it would be easy thing to do

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rico.6873 said:
    Getting a 25 man raid would be quite easy with a queue system, Just look at FFXIV
    Setting up the roles would be awkward at the beginning though because GW2 doesnt really do/have roles
    But once that hurdle has been tackled it would be easy thing to do

    Well, yes, because the whole difficulty lies in that "hurdle". And it's actually even more complex than that. Not only the whole class/traits/gear system is made in a way where there are no set roles, but also all the encounters are made in a way where there's no "right" group setup. There's simply no way to make a proper duty finder for a game like this. Not without completely revamping the whole class/traits/gear systems.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

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