Hard counter to CI Mesmer — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Hard counter to CI Mesmer

Chiral.8915Chiral.8915 Member ✭✭

Rather than complain about CI mesmer I'd rather focus on what is considered a hard counter to CI Mesmer and more generally since it seems that condi is slowly becoming the meta, what is a a hard anti-condi build? Arcane/water/weaver ele? Hybrid firebrand? Looking forward to the input. Thx!

Comments

  • Alatar.7364Alatar.7364 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chiral.8915 said:
    Rather than complain about CI mesmer I'd rather focus on what is considered a hard counter to CI Mesmer and more generally since it seems that condi is slowly becoming the meta, what is a a hard anti-condi build? Arcane/water/weaver ele? Hybrid firebrand? Looking forward to the input. Thx!

    I think Core Guard (GS) is a strong counter to CI, and Mirage in general. Possibly Proto-Holo too, not 100% sure about that.

    ~ I Aear cân ven na mar

  • Genesis.7864Genesis.7864 Member ✭✭✭

    Scourge is usually cancer to me whenever I played mirage. But that could also be because I'm not that great at countering scourge.. Still an option. Fight fire with fire (condi with condi). Mirage has condi clears and converts but necro can corrupt boons into condis which counters mesmer easy.
    Stay away from CCs because of AA (it converts 2 damaging condis into boons when disabled) unless you're opening with it.
    That's pretty much all I can say for it.. Mirage should've got the nerf, not Chrono..

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2019

    If I must only talk about hard counters,

    I am surprised nobody said the oldest and the best counter there is: Thief.
    Other than that, all three guardian variants "counter" mesmer. Core and DH can actually kill it while FB can sustain the pressure easily.

    Conclusion: If you know how to play thief, it's the best counter. Second is core guard.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Generally, there are no hard counters for anything. Best option against mesmer condi (regardless of the build) is AOE damage and condi removal. Guardian and engi are the best option, but not the only ones. As a a guardian main, guardian has edge over condi mesmer, regardless of the mesmer build.

  • Marxx.5021Marxx.5021 Member ✭✭✭

    The hard counter would be stay away from PvP. Other than that play mirage ...

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2019

    There's no hard counter, but there's a few soft counters.

    Acrobatics thief running Don't Stop. Smoke screen is a big +. Don't stop melts immob off you and puts pressure on mirage. use your weapon set of choice but try to take roll for init/withdraw to drop out of Chaos Storm. If you take daredevil, you can mitigate the damage loss from losing Deadly Arts by using Havoc specialist. If you run Deadeye, replace Acrobatics with Shadow Arts. I wouldnt recommend fighting a mirage with Deadeye though, unless you're insane and running a weird D/P build. and even so, the potential for instadowning the mesmer with that is impractical because youll be losing the point the whole time you're setting up.

    Condi Revenant running Pulsating pestilence and Mallyx/Glint, but you need to play it perfectly. Use reflect on swap and facet of chaos while channeling Mallyx to push condis out onto clones and mesmer, banish their boons. CI mes has low cleanse and puts out conditions automatically on daze, so they tend to kill themselves if they suddenly find those on them. torment on a mirage is good.

    Berserker running outrage and rousing resilience. Take Eternal Champion if you want, but you don't need to. Also, Defiant Stance lets you walk on mirages for 4 seconds, and if nothing else they will burn their dodges trying to not die from that. You will also need to play this perfectly and be ready to run the moment you dont have the right rotation setup to kill them.

    Any condi oriented necromancer. be sure to have a better heal than consume conditions. They will power lock you every time if they are half decent.

    I dislike Mirages and Mesmers, but there's workarounds right now. If they want to use staff to be annoying, that's fine by me. There's a bunch of weird, non meta builds that work against that.

    Chaotic Interruption needs a nerf, but it isnt as egregious as old chronobunker, prenerf post rework phantasm chrono, or pre nerf Evasive mirror condi mirage. I wouldnt even venture to say it is as overpowered as prenerf rampage. 1200 range instant cast daze is annoying though. That needs to be made a projectile so people can see it, or have its range reduced to where thief's headshot is.

    Oh, and the most important thing:

    If you find yourself in Chaos Storm and dont have a stunbreak that moves you out of Chaos storm, and get immobed, dont press buttons. wait the immob out and leave.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • Chiral.8915Chiral.8915 Member ✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    There's no hard counter, but there's a few soft counters.

    Acrobatics thief running Don't Stop. Smoke screen is a big +. Don't stop melts immob off you and puts pressure on mirage. use your weapon set of choice but try to take roll for init/withdraw to drop out of Chaos Storm. If you take daredevil, you can mitigate the damage loss from losing Deadly Arts by using Havoc specialist. If you run Deadeye, replace Acrobatics with Shadow Arts. I wouldnt recommend fighting a mirage with Deadeye though, unless you're insane and running a weird D/P build. and even so, the potential for instadowning the mesmer with that is impractical because youll be losing the point the whole time you're setting up.

    Condi Revenant running Pulsating pestilence and Mallyx/Glint, but you need to play it perfectly. Use reflect on swap and facet of chaos while channeling Mallyx to push condis out onto clones and mesmer, banish their boons. CI mes has low cleanse and puts out conditions automatically on daze, so they tend to kill themselves if they suddenly find those on them. torment on a mirage is good.

    Berserker running outrage and rousing resilience. Take Eternal Champion if you want, but you don't need to. Also, Defiant Stance lets you walk on mirages for 4 seconds, and if nothing else they will burn their dodges trying to not die from that. You will also need to play this perfectly and be ready to run the moment you dont have the right rotation setup to kill them.

    Any condi oriented necromancer. be sure to have a better heal than consume conditions. They will power lock you every time if they are half decent.

    I dislike Mirages and Mesmers, but there's workarounds right now. If they want to use staff to be annoying, that's fine by me. There's a bunch of weird, non meta builds that work against that.

    Chaotic Interruption needs a nerf, but it isnt as egregious as old chronobunker, prenerf post rework phantasm chrono, or pre nerf Evasive mirror condi mirage. I wouldnt even venture to say it is as overpowered as prenerf rampage. 1200 range instant cast daze is annoying though. That needs to be made a projectile so people can see it, or have its range reduced to where thief's headshot is.

    Oh, and the most important thing:

    If you find yourself in Chaos Storm and dont have a stunbreak that moves you out of Chaos storm, and get immobed, dont press buttons. wait the immob out and leave.

    Thanks for this post. Very insightful. quick questions...I have a soft spot for meme builds so the Condi rev has my interest. I don't have much experience with rev so my question is why is condi rev so bad in PVP or why does it have to be played perfectly? On paper, rev looks like it has a lot of tools? looking a build like this

    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vlAQNApXmn3geNSuQvJRboHlsP0kS4I6SJ4EtrkFUlhtolmy+81nPNgCaA-jZRHAB+XGg5DBgR7PIwTAAgTAAA

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2019

    @Chiral.8915 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    There's no hard counter, but there's a few soft counters.

    Acrobatics thief running Don't Stop. Smoke screen is a big +. Don't stop melts immob off you and puts pressure on mirage. use your weapon set of choice but try to take roll for init/withdraw to drop out of Chaos Storm. If you take daredevil, you can mitigate the damage loss from losing Deadly Arts by using Havoc specialist. If you run Deadeye, replace Acrobatics with Shadow Arts. I wouldnt recommend fighting a mirage with Deadeye though, unless you're insane and running a weird D/P build. and even so, the potential for instadowning the mesmer with that is impractical because youll be losing the point the whole time you're setting up.

    Condi Revenant running Pulsating pestilence and Mallyx/Glint, but you need to play it perfectly. Use reflect on swap and facet of chaos while channeling Mallyx to push condis out onto clones and mesmer, banish their boons. CI mes has low cleanse and puts out conditions automatically on daze, so they tend to kill themselves if they suddenly find those on them. torment on a mirage is good.

    Berserker running outrage and rousing resilience. Take Eternal Champion if you want, but you don't need to. Also, Defiant Stance lets you walk on mirages for 4 seconds, and if nothing else they will burn their dodges trying to not die from that. You will also need to play this perfectly and be ready to run the moment you dont have the right rotation setup to kill them.

    Any condi oriented necromancer. be sure to have a better heal than consume conditions. They will power lock you every time if they are half decent.

    I dislike Mirages and Mesmers, but there's workarounds right now. If they want to use staff to be annoying, that's fine by me. There's a bunch of weird, non meta builds that work against that.

    Chaotic Interruption needs a nerf, but it isnt as egregious as old chronobunker, prenerf post rework phantasm chrono, or pre nerf Evasive mirror condi mirage. I wouldnt even venture to say it is as overpowered as prenerf rampage. 1200 range instant cast daze is annoying though. That needs to be made a projectile so people can see it, or have its range reduced to where thief's headshot is.

    Oh, and the most important thing:

    If you find yourself in Chaos Storm and dont have a stunbreak that moves you out of Chaos storm, and get immobed, dont press buttons. wait the immob out and leave.

    Thanks for this post. Very insightful. quick questions...I have a soft spot for meme builds so the Condi rev has my interest. I don't have much experience with rev so my question is why is condi rev so bad in PVP or why does it have to be played perfectly? On paper, rev looks like it has a lot of tools? looking a build like this

    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vlAQNApXmn3geNSuQvJRboHlsP0kS4I6SJ4EtrkFUlhtolmy+81nPNgCaA-jZRHAB+XGg5DBgR7PIwTAAgTAAA

    It's bad in pvp because the entire condi dealing side of it is slow and Mallyx's stunbreak drains your energy significantly. Any interruption chain when you are not channeling shiro can devastate a revenant, and that goes doubly so for Mallyx. It is absolutely not a press-buttons legend.. You will need to avoid all hard CC actively and use your main condi damaging skills (from mace, ideally) when you have a low chance of being interrupted. If you get interrupted you have to abandon all of your damage dealing in order to breakstun, or die. That being said, if you lean properly on Embrace the darkness in mallyx, you can discourage any melee-range interruptions.

    There is a very fine balance to play mallyx without being completely shut down, especially because all of its casts can be interrupted and your stunbreak drains your energy. But if you do it right you can burn even warriors running cleanse on swap. Thats why you need to play it perfect vs mes. because they can interrupt anything they want on you in mallyx.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • ZhouX.8742ZhouX.8742 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    If I must only talk about hard counters,

    I am surprised nobody said the oldest and the best counter there is: Thief.
    Other than that, all three guardian variants "counter" mesmer. Core and DH can actually kill it while FB can sustain the pressure easily.

    Conclusion: If you know how to play thief, it's the best counter. Second is core guard.

    Right but for thief to 1v1 mirage on side would take thief out of his primary role - 1upping and decapping. Otherwise, he'd just be a duelist role which then you'd basically be doing your role wrong.

    Thief will usually EVENTUALLY win an encounter with mirage sure, because they are the counter to mesmer in general. But Mirage WANTS the thief to fight them 1v1 for an extended amount of time, why? Because then they're not around the map forcing rotations.

    This is both a weakness on thief's side against a duelist mes even though they counter them.

    Hence why actual duelist specs exist.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2019

    @ZhouX.8742 said:
    Thief will usually EVENTUALLY win an encounter with mirage sure, because they are the counter to mesmer in general. But Mirage WANTS the thief to fight them 1v1 for an extended amount of time, why? Because then they're not around the map forcing rotations.

    This is why I am not super upset about CI right now.
    CI mirage is a time waster. it cant chase, it cant burst. It can only kill people who choose to fight it, its slow going to points, and it dies hard to +1.
    That's fine by me. Condi mesmer should have been time waster/AOE slowdown from the beginning.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    Condi Revenant running Pulsating pestilence and Mallyx/Glint, but you need to play it perfectly. Use reflect on swap and facet of chaos while channeling Mallyx to push condis out onto clones and mesmer, banish their boons. CI mes has low cleanse and puts out conditions automatically on daze, so they tend to kill themselves if they suddenly find those on them. torment on a mirage is good.

    As a condi Rev player, kitten hits close to home...
    If you aren't activating ultra instinct or some kitten you might as well afk, and even when you hit everything perfect, save your stunbreaks, dodge with a purpose, managing your condis with finesse, one CC chain can spell death just like that. It's honestly more of a L2P issue and I'm getting pretty good at it now, but even at that there are some mesmers that you know you can barely touch.

  • Vicariuz.1605Vicariuz.1605 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2019

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Chiral.8915 said:
    Rather than complain about CI mesmer I'd rather focus on what is considered a hard counter to CI Mesmer and more generally since it seems that condi is slowly becoming the meta, what is a a hard anti-condi build? Arcane/water/weaver ele? Hybrid firebrand? Looking forward to the input. Thx!

    I think Core Guard (GS) is a strong counter to CI, and Mirage in general. Possibly Proto-Holo too, not 100% sure about that.

    neither of these.

    s/d thief has a pretty decent advantage unless the mes knows not to give the thief room to sword 2 (then the thief is in trouble)
    the only hard counter to a good CI mirage is another good CI mirage/power mirage, tools holo/rev/blood scourge can also beat it semi reliably (still very difficult)

  • Hex.8714Hex.8714 Member ✭✭

    theres no counter to CI mesmer, the counter is to reroll to mesmer yourself

  • toxic.3648toxic.3648 Member ✭✭✭

    d/f auramancer, with diamond skin u can basically ignore them , u wont kill them but watching them hammering at u to no avail is oddly satisfying

    Toxicity Pengu to the rescue /o/

  • Eurantien.4632Eurantien.4632 Member ✭✭✭

    WS/BM/Soulbeast. Take bear stance.

  • Xervite.5493Xervite.5493 Member ✭✭

    Dump AoEs down and cleave the clones as fast as possible, that's it there is no better way to deal with condi mirage.

  • Genesis.7864Genesis.7864 Member ✭✭✭

    @Xervite.5493 said:
    Dump AoEs down and cleave the clones as fast as possible, that's it there is no better way to deal with condi mirage.

    Lmao remember the chaos trait which punished people for destroying clones? Cripple + 1 other condi each clone destroyed. That was insanely annoying while mixed alongside PU.

  • Eurantien.4632Eurantien.4632 Member ✭✭✭

    @Xervite.5493 said:
    Dump AoEs down and cleave the clones as fast as possible, that's it there is no better way to deal with condi mirage.

    When they dodge their clones dodge and deal the most damage... good luck.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @ZhouX.8742 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    If I must only talk about hard counters,

    I am surprised nobody said the oldest and the best counter there is: Thief.
    Other than that, all three guardian variants "counter" mesmer. Core and DH can actually kill it while FB can sustain the pressure easily.

    Conclusion: If you know how to play thief, it's the best counter. Second is core guard.

    Right but for thief to 1v1 mirage on side would take thief out of his primary role - 1upping and decapping. Otherwise, he'd just be a duelist role which then you'd basically be doing your role wrong.

    Thief will usually EVENTUALLY win an encounter with mirage sure, because they are the counter to mesmer in general. But Mirage WANTS the thief to fight them 1v1 for an extended amount of time, why? Because then they're not around the map forcing rotations.

    This is both a weakness on thief's side against a duelist mes even though they counter them.

    Hence why actual duelist specs exist.

    Very closeminded aproach. you need to adopt to the situation. If you are confident you can clap mirage in 1v1 and take node, there is no reason not to do it, put M on respawn and then roam.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    How is thief, like s/d or perhaps even the staff noder thief, not a counter?

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • ZhouX.8742ZhouX.8742 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2019

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    If I must only talk about hard counters,

    I am surprised nobody said the oldest and the best counter there is: Thief.
    Other than that, all three guardian variants "counter" mesmer. Core and DH can actually kill it while FB can sustain the pressure easily.

    Conclusion: If you know how to play thief, it's the best counter. Second is core guard.

    Right but for thief to 1v1 mirage on side would take thief out of his primary role - 1upping and decapping. Otherwise, he'd just be a duelist role which then you'd basically be doing your role wrong.

    Thief will usually EVENTUALLY win an encounter with mirage sure, because they are the counter to mesmer in general. But Mirage WANTS the thief to fight them 1v1 for an extended amount of time, why? Because then they're not around the map forcing rotations.

    This is both a weakness on thief's side against a duelist mes even though they counter them.

    Hence why actual duelist specs exist.

    Very closeminded aproach. you need to adopt to the situation. If you are confident you can clap mirage in 1v1 and take node, there is no reason not to do it, put M on respawn and then roam.

    It's not close minded, you just clearly don't understand roles and that's fine because you're about to learn.

    If you actually play thief you would understand that 1v1ing a mirage on point in a duelist role aspect which is lol btw since you need to constantly sword 2 in and out which means you'll eventually lose the point anyway SO not only do you lose the point and let point creep occur and essentially do nothing in the long run, but you spend 1-2 minutes dueling a good mirage on point , maybe even longer... So you're basically throwing away your advantage as a thief (decap / 1up) and using your time on a mirage that a duelist class should be doing in the 1st place.

    As a thief, you basically need to be moving the map almost at all times, constantly decapping to force rotations and 1up opponents, that is thief's meta role. Staff build is not as good as Spellbreaker so you basically are just playing a mediocre duelist when you could play another class that can stall mirage on point much better. This isn't to say staff isn't good, it's good but there's just better option but if you enjoy using it, go for it.

    If you're talking about 1upping with a side noder already engaged, then I can see your point but no, you're talking about just dueling a mirage on point as a thief.... It's not a question of whether the thief can, of course he can but you're basically wasting time and not doing your role properly.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭

    @ZhouX.8742 said:
    If you actually play thief you would understand that 1v1ing a mirage on point in a duelist role aspect which is lol btw since you need to constantly sword 2 in and out which means you'll eventually lose the point anyway SO not only do you lose the point and let point creep occur and essentially do nothing in the long run, but you spend 1-2 minutes dueling a good mirage on point , maybe even longer... So you're basically throwing away your advantage as a thief (decap / 1up) and using your time on a mirage that a duelist class should be doing in the 1st place.

    As a thief, you basically need to be moving the map almost at all times, constantly decapping to force rotations and 1up opponents, that is thief's meta role.

    That's what happens when people only study theory.
    Let me say this to you: Putting somebody in opponent team in respawn is basically +1ing your whole team.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @ZhouX.8742 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    If I must only talk about hard counters,

    I am surprised nobody said the oldest and the best counter there is: Thief.
    Other than that, all three guardian variants "counter" mesmer. Core and DH can actually kill it while FB can sustain the pressure easily.

    Conclusion: If you know how to play thief, it's the best counter. Second is core guard.

    Right but for thief to 1v1 mirage on side would take thief out of his primary role - 1upping and decapping. Otherwise, he'd just be a duelist role which then you'd basically be doing your role wrong.

    Thief will usually EVENTUALLY win an encounter with mirage sure, because they are the counter to mesmer in general. But Mirage WANTS the thief to fight them 1v1 for an extended amount of time, why? Because then they're not around the map forcing rotations.

    This is both a weakness on thief's side against a duelist mes even though they counter them.

    Hence why actual duelist specs exist.

    Very closeminded aproach. you need to adopt to the situation. If you are confident you can clap mirage in 1v1 and take node, there is no reason not to do it, put M on respawn and then roam.

    It's not close minded, you just clearly don't understand roles and that's fine because you're about to learn.

    If you actually play thief you would understand that 1v1ing a mirage on point in a duelist role aspect which is lol btw since you need to constantly sword 2 in and out which means you'll eventually lose the point anyway SO not only do you lose the point and let point creep occur and essentially do nothing in the long run, but you spend 1-2 minutes dueling a good mirage on point , maybe even longer... So you're basically throwing away your advantage as a thief (decap / 1up) and using your time on a mirage that a duelist class should be doing in the 1st place.

    As a thief, you basically need to be moving the map almost at all times, constantly decapping to force rotations and 1up opponents, that is thief's meta role. Staff build is not as good as Spellbreaker so you basically are just playing a mediocre duelist when you could play another class that can stall mirage on point much better. This isn't to say staff isn't good, it's good but there's just better option but if you enjoy using it, go for it.

    If you're talking about 1upping with a side noder already engaged, then I can see your point but no, you're talking about just dueling a mirage on point as a thief.... It's not a question of whether the thief can, of course he can but you're basically wasting time and not doing your role properly.

    theory theory theory theory, doesnt work in practice.
    you assume every mirage is god amongst man capable of holding thief for 2min, if you assume that every opponent is going to play perfectly from the start might as well roll a dice instead of playing pvp. no matter how good someone is, they WILL make mistakes, fish for them, win more.

  • Weaver with rune of evasion. This build has so much condi cleanse that there's no way how mirage could kill it, and the same goes for any other condi build. However a decent condi mirage should also notice imidiately that he can't win against that and outrotate the slower ele.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @UBcktieDL.5318 said:
    Weaver with rune of evasion. This build has so much condi cleanse that there's no way how mirage could kill it, and the same goes for any other condi build. However a decent condi mirage should also notice imidiately that he can't win against that and outrotate the slower ele.

    dont know about ele, but current meta condi mirage doesnt have much mobility

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2019

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UBcktieDL.5318 said:
    Weaver with rune of evasion. This build has so much condi cleanse that there's no way how mirage could kill it, and the same goes for any other condi build. However a decent condi mirage should also notice imidiately that he can't win against that and outrotate the slower ele.

    dont know about ele, but current meta condi mirage doesnt have much mobility

    It has a lot more than meta weaver I can tell you that. Meta weaver is on focus so no ride the lightning. It doesn't even run lightning flash.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • ZhouX.8742ZhouX.8742 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    If I must only talk about hard counters,

    I am surprised nobody said the oldest and the best counter there is: Thief.
    Other than that, all three guardian variants "counter" mesmer. Core and DH can actually kill it while FB can sustain the pressure easily.

    Conclusion: If you know how to play thief, it's the best counter. Second is core guard.

    Right but for thief to 1v1 mirage on side would take thief out of his primary role - 1upping and decapping. Otherwise, he'd just be a duelist role which then you'd basically be doing your role wrong.

    Thief will usually EVENTUALLY win an encounter with mirage sure, because they are the counter to mesmer in general. But Mirage WANTS the thief to fight them 1v1 for an extended amount of time, why? Because then they're not around the map forcing rotations.

    This is both a weakness on thief's side against a duelist mes even though they counter them.

    Hence why actual duelist specs exist.

    Very closeminded aproach. you need to adopt to the situation. If you are confident you can clap mirage in 1v1 and take node, there is no reason not to do it, put M on respawn and then roam.

    It's not close minded, you just clearly don't understand roles and that's fine because you're about to learn.

    If you actually play thief you would understand that 1v1ing a mirage on point in a duelist role aspect which is lol btw since you need to constantly sword 2 in and out which means you'll eventually lose the point anyway SO not only do you lose the point and let point creep occur and essentially do nothing in the long run, but you spend 1-2 minutes dueling a good mirage on point , maybe even longer... So you're basically throwing away your advantage as a thief (decap / 1up) and using your time on a mirage that a duelist class should be doing in the 1st place.

    As a thief, you basically need to be moving the map almost at all times, constantly decapping to force rotations and 1up opponents, that is thief's meta role. Staff build is not as good as Spellbreaker so you basically are just playing a mediocre duelist when you could play another class that can stall mirage on point much better. This isn't to say staff isn't good, it's good but there's just better option but if you enjoy using it, go for it.

    If you're talking about 1upping with a side noder already engaged, then I can see your point but no, you're talking about just dueling a mirage on point as a thief.... It's not a question of whether the thief can, of course he can but you're basically wasting time and not doing your role properly.

    theory theory theory theory, doesnt work in practice.
    you assume every mirage is god amongst man capable of holding thief for 2min, if you assume that every opponent is going to play perfectly from the start might as well roll a dice instead of playing pvp. no matter how good someone is, they WILL make mistakes, fish for them, win more.

    You clearly just don't understand time utilization for the thief role in PvP. No problem, we all start somewhere.

  • ZhouX.8742ZhouX.8742 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:
    If you actually play thief you would understand that 1v1ing a mirage on point in a duelist role aspect which is lol btw since you need to constantly sword 2 in and out which means you'll eventually lose the point anyway SO not only do you lose the point and let point creep occur and essentially do nothing in the long run, but you spend 1-2 minutes dueling a good mirage on point , maybe even longer... So you're basically throwing away your advantage as a thief (decap / 1up) and using your time on a mirage that a duelist class should be doing in the 1st place.

    As a thief, you basically need to be moving the map almost at all times, constantly decapping to force rotations and 1up opponents, that is thief's meta role.

    That's what happens when people only study theory.
    Let me say this to you: Putting somebody in opponent team in respawn is basically +1ing your whole team.

    It's a waste of a time for a decapper/1up thief to play the duelist role on node and why the duelist role exists for specific classes. Simple, end of discussion.

    If you guys can't understand these basics , then I would maybe watch vet thieves on twitch and learn a few things. Start Vallun/Sindrener.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭

    @ZhouX.8742 said:
    If you guys can't understand these basics , then I would maybe watch vet thieves on twitch and learn a few things. Start Vallun/Sindrener.

    That's very bold (and rude) of you to assume I don't follow them.I've been watching good players since ESL.

    That's why I know a thief can go after a mesmer if the conditions are right. Not even chess follows pure theory.

  • ZhouX.8742ZhouX.8742 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2019

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:
    If you guys can't understand these basics , then I would maybe watch vet thieves on twitch and learn a few things. Start Vallun/Sindrener.

    That's very bold (and rude) of you to assume I don't follow them.I've been watching good players since ESL.

    That's why I know a thief can go after a mesmer if the conditions are right. Not even chess follows pure theory.

    Not an assumption when what you type is telling me exactly how much knowledge you have on thief and rotations in the game in general. You almost always never 1v1 a mesmer on node as a decapper/1upper, but sure you're right in the <1% scenario that you would find yourself doing it to possibly stall in a situation you're technically correct, this would also mean your side noder isn't doing his job though if your team is forcing thief to 1v1 a side noder (and you're most likely getting out rotated already because your side noder either died or is clueless on his role).

  • BadMed.3846BadMed.3846 Member ✭✭✭

    We will complain about CI mirage as it's terrible for the game.

  • BadMed.3846BadMed.3846 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    That's why I know a thief can go after a mesmer if the conditions are right. Not even chess follows pure theory.

    Conditions are always mesmemisingly confusing and tormented.

  • yusayu.3629yusayu.3629 Member ✭✭✭

    Stability? Projectile reflect/destruction? Thief for sidenoding? Condi-Spam?

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2019

    @ZhouX.8742 said:
    You almost always never 1v1 a mesmer on node as a decapper/1upper, but sure you're right in the <1% scenario that you would find yourself doing it to possibly stall in a situation you're technically correct,

    It's a lot more common than that. I've even seen good thieves taking 1v1s on revenants (rotational dps, +1 even), rangers ("counter" sidenoder) and even necromancers/guardians (teamfighters), in ATs and mATs no less.
    It all depends on the current situation in the game, theory is just "general game knowledge".

    this would also mean your side noder isn't doing his job though if your team is forcing thief to 1v1 a side noder (and you're most likely getting out rotated already because your side noder either died or is clueless on his role).

    That's actually half of what I was trying to say. I already explained the other half.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:
    You almost always never 1v1 a mesmer on node as a decapper/1upper, but sure you're right in the <1% scenario that you would find yourself doing it to possibly stall in a situation you're technically correct,

    It's a lot more common than that. I've even seen good thieves taking 1v1s on revenants (rotational dps, +1 even), rangers ("counter" sidenoder) and even necromancers/guardians (teamfighters), in ATs and mATs no less.
    It all depends on the current situation in the game, theory is just "general game knowledge".

    this would also mean your side noder isn't doing his job though if your team is forcing thief to 1v1 a side noder (and you're most likely getting out rotated already because your side noder either died or is clueless on his role).

    That's actually half of what I was trying to say. I already explained the other half.

    let him be in his closed little box, where you cant improvise and adopt to situation.
    thief can only +1, no matter what. :D

  • Mikkel.8427Mikkel.8427 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2019

    The first and most potent counter to CI Mirage (and any condi Mesmer)-

    TURN YOUR AUTO-ATTACK OFF.

    As someone who multi-classes, I can assure you that's the very first step to winning the engagement. After that, time your key skills around their dodges/interrupt spam. The vast majority of CI Mirages are total noobs and just unload their Interrupts and dodges into you to try to burst you down. Have patience, their pressure is barely a tickle if you don't feed into it by giving them easy interrupts.

  • SlimChance.6593SlimChance.6593 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2019

    I haven't PvP'd in quite awhile (several months before PoF came out). But I don't understand why you would pick (Mantra of Distraction/Chaotic Interruption) in a "condi" build?

    Isn't Mirage's main condition damage from Confusion(damage upon skill use) and Torment(damage when moving)?

    The daze from MoD prevents skill use, and the immobilize from CI will stop movement.... why is this build so hated in sPvP right now? (Not to mention using Pistol for the "stun".. preventing both skill usage and movement????? )

    Seems to me if this "CI Condi Mirage" is dominating in SPvP,(based on the forum hate) it apparently can spit out TONS of confusion and torment that it doesn't matter if it wastes damage by stunning/immobilizing the target. (Shouldn't players be yelling about THAT and not MoD/CI??)

    Or am I just not "not in touch" or am I missing something?

  • ZhouX.8742ZhouX.8742 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:
    You almost always never 1v1 a mesmer on node as a decapper/1upper, but sure you're right in the <1% scenario that you would find yourself doing it to possibly stall in a situation you're technically correct,

    It's a lot more common than that. I've even seen good thieves taking 1v1s on revenants (rotational dps, +1 even), rangers ("counter" sidenoder) and even necromancers/guardians (teamfighters), in ATs and mATs no less.
    It all depends on the current situation in the game, theory is just "general game knowledge".

    this would also mean your side noder isn't doing his job though if your team is forcing thief to 1v1 a side noder (and you're most likely getting out rotated already because your side noder either died or is clueless on his role).

    That's actually half of what I was trying to say. I already explained the other half.

    let him be in his closed little box, where you cant improvise and adopt to situation.
    thief can only +1, no matter what. :D

    I mean, that is the role of thief with meta s/d .. To decap and +1 - you can duel with it if you'd like, but it's not the purpose of that thief build. I feel like I keep needing to reiterating these basic concepts of roles as something that even bronze players have a grasp of... This is common sense stuff essentially.

    It would be like trying to put a firebrand on side node by himself - you wouldn't do this right? He technically CAN do it because he's a class with skills that could potentially stall for X amount of time but he's a team fighter with necro - that is his role.. Classes have roles in conquest. This isn't rocket science and this isn't anything new and is not close-minded it literally is just the way it is in this game's PvP mode. If you don't understand these fundamental concepts then it's probably no surprise you're complaining about PvP in the 1st place in the forums.

    These are things that happen in any organized match format in any game - roles belong to specific classes / champions / players. If you look at any mAT/AT or formulated inner match you'll understand this. It obviously is more flexible in ranked though where you're put together with random strangers so technically you're being forced to adapt to the role that would be best suited for the opposing team but the same rules still apply.

  • ZhouX.8742ZhouX.8742 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2019

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:
    You almost always never 1v1 a mesmer on node as a decapper/1upper, but sure you're right in the <1% scenario that you would find yourself doing it to possibly stall in a situation you're technically correct,

    It's a lot more common than that. I've even seen good thieves taking 1v1s on revenants (rotational dps, +1 even), rangers ("counter" sidenoder) and even necromancers/guardians (teamfighters), in ATs and mATs no less.
    It all depends on the current situation in the game, theory is just "general game knowledge".

    this would also mean your side noder isn't doing his job though if your team is forcing thief to 1v1 a side noder (and you're most likely getting out rotated already because your side noder either died or is clueless on his role).

    That's actually half of what I was trying to say. I already explained the other half.

    Yes... Thieves and revs are essentially almost the same role and some cases revs were beginning to replace thieves all together. But fights don't last as long between a rev and a thief vs a thief vs ci mirage / spellbreaker. There's a big difference in the tankiness between a rev and a duelist class. Tankiness = time. Time = crucial for thieves.

    Common sense stuff here... Sigh

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2019

    @ZhouX.8742 said:
    Yes... Thieves and revs are essentially almost the same role and some cases revs were beginning to replace thieves all together. But fights don't last as long between a rev and a thief vs a thief vs ci mirage / spellbreaker. There's a big difference in the tankiness between a rev and a duelist class. Tankiness = time. Time = crucial for thieves.

    Common sense stuff here... Sigh

    Sure rev vs thief duels are usually short (even if nobody dies, both stop fighting and go do other stuff).
    However, I didn't only say "rev". Are Soulbeast vs Thief duels short too?

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SlimChance.6593 said:
    I haven't PvP'd in quite awhile (several months before PoF came out). But I don't understand why you would pick (Mantra of Distraction/Chaotic Interruption) in a "condi" build?

    Isn't Mirage's main condition damage from Confusion(damage upon skill use) and Torment(damage when moving)?

    The daze from MoD prevents skill use, and the immobilize from CI will stop movement.... why is this build so hated in sPvP right now? (Not to mention using Pistol for the "stun".. preventing both skill usage and movement????? )

    Seems to me if this "CI Condi Mirage" is dominating in SPvP,(based on the forum hate) it apparently can spit out TONS of confusion and torment that it doesn't matter if it wastes damage by stunning/immobilizing the target. (Shouldn't players be yelling about THAT and not MoD/CI??)

    Or am I just not "not in touch" or am I missing something?

    Just a minor input, I don't know if ANerf changed it but rupts proc confusion damage.
    Now with that out of the way, as long as mesmer has a playable build people will complain.
    What I find funny is that everyone wants CI and mantra nerfed but those same qqers will scream "nerf elite not core" if they aren't talking about mesmer.

    The degenerate

  • SlimChance.6593SlimChance.6593 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2019

    I would assume "Interrupts" trigger confusion damage.. since in order to "interrupt" someone they had to be using a skill in the first place. But "dazing" a "confused" target (puts skills on cooldown) will do less tick damage then letting them execute skills (while confused.)

    ANet lowered the passive confusion ticks, stating that Confusion is supposed to be a "burst" condition.. its only supposed to last 2-3 seconds.... so again, why would you "daze" someone you just confused????????? Or stun/immobilize someone you just tormented?

    As a power user, controlling the fight with daze/stun/immobilize makes sense... (its more a defense/setting up of your burst damage). But for a Confusion/Tormenting damage build, your throwing away damage? No?

    Wouldn't Bountiful Interruption (on a condi build) be better choice and almost any other utility than MoD? (another stun break or condition cleanse )??

    I mean isn't a "CI Condi Mirage" actually doing you a favor by stunning/immobilizing you???? Why all the nerf MoD/CI??

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SlimChance.6593 said:
    I would assume "Interrupts" trigger confusion damage.. since in order to "interrupt" someone they had to be using a skill in the first place. But "dazing" a "confused" target (puts skills on cooldown) will do less tick damage then letting them execute skills (while confused.)

    ANet lowered the passive confusion ticks, stating that Confusion is supposed to be a "burst" condition.. its only supposed to last 2-3 seconds.... so again, why would you "daze" someone you just confused????????? Or stun/immobilize someone you just tormented?

    As a power user, controlling the fight with daze/stun/immobilize makes sense... (its more a defense/setting up of your burst damage). But for a Confusion/Tormenting damage build, your throwing away damage? No?

    Wouldn't Bountiful Interruption (on a condi build) be better choice and almost any other utility than MoD? (another stun break or condition cleanse )??

    I mean isn't a "CI Condi Mirage" actually doing you a favor by stunning/immobilizing you???? Why all the nerf MoD/CI??

    Yes, you're right.
    Regarding BD, BD was nerfed into a not so good trait and as usual as soon as mesmers adapt people will start crying about the other traits.
    It will be until mesmers don't have any good traits left.

    The degenerate

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    If I must only talk about hard counters,

    I am surprised nobody said the oldest and the best counter there is: Thief.
    Other than that, all three guardian variants "counter" mesmer. Core and DH can actually kill it while FB can sustain the pressure easily.

    Conclusion: If you know how to play thief, it's the best counter. Second is core guard.

    Thief is a counter to power variants of mesmer. It is not a counter to condi mirage.

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • Allarius.5670Allarius.5670 Member ✭✭✭

    @SlimChance.6593 said:
    I would assume "Interrupts" trigger confusion damage.. since in order to "interrupt" someone they had to be using a skill in the first place. But "dazing" a "confused" target (puts skills on cooldown) will do less tick damage then letting them execute skills (while confused.)

    ANet lowered the passive confusion ticks, stating that Confusion is supposed to be a "burst" condition.. its only supposed to last 2-3 seconds.... so again, why would you "daze" someone you just confused????????? Or stun/immobilize someone you just tormented?

    As a power user, controlling the fight with daze/stun/immobilize makes sense... (its more a defense/setting up of your burst damage). But for a Confusion/Tormenting damage build, your throwing away damage? No?

    Wouldn't Bountiful Interruption (on a condi build) be better choice and almost any other utility than MoD? (another stun break or condition cleanse )??

    I mean isn't a "CI Condi Mirage" actually doing you a favor by stunning/immobilizing you???? Why all the nerf MoD/CI??

    Control effects (particularly instant cast daze) that are used to interrupt key skills are always useful, even for confusion heavy builds. More so if you know what you are trying to interrupt.

    Regarding CI, on top of applying cover conditions the immobilize helps land iDuelist bleed burst and staff ambush attacks from the mirage and clones. A large amount of damage can come from bleed and burn when these hit, diversifying damage sources among multiple conditions. If you cannot clear them all (made less likely by cover condies) then you are taking some kind of damage when a good burst lands (made easier my immob). This idea and build concept has been around since pre-HOT but was usually very fragile. Mirage helps with that.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    If I must only talk about hard counters,

    I am surprised nobody said the oldest and the best counter there is: Thief.
    Other than that, all three guardian variants "counter" mesmer. Core and DH can actually kill it while FB can sustain the pressure easily.

    Conclusion: If you know how to play thief, it's the best counter. Second is core guard.

    Thief is a counter to power variants of mesmer. It is not a counter to condi mirage.

    laughts in plasma,plasma, dagger storm, dodge dodge,steal plasma plasma

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    In terms of wvw I still prefer BD despite the overnerf, because it's reliable boons (particularly F2 vigour, since the excessive vigour nerfs) and doesn't necessitate running MoD which personally I've never liked.

    Without MoD it's only F3, rng chaos storm and luck iMage hit (30s cd and easy to avoid) or pistol 5 that benefit from CI - and depending on situation may not get much mileage out of it at all. With MoD there's no room to run proper cleanse (assuming Blink and one other useful utility) - so the mesmer is highly susceptible to incoming condi given only cleanse would be jaunt/prestige and maybe sigils, which is nothing when hit by good condi burst. Kind of ironic there the fotm condi "cheese" is weak to condi.

    I dunno, just think MoD is a gimmick like it was a gimmick on power shatter until CS got nerfed and people remembered "oh wait, you can land burst without stunlock"...

    Of course some classes are going to be weak to it (eg necro), but I don't think it's as obscene as is being made out to be. Synergies like MoD reducing F3 cd and pistol 5 cd reduction from trait which can make cc more frequently available - so I wouldn't be opposed to a change to CI maybe reducing immob duration or giving it something else instead.

    If anything, chaos storm should have this rng business tweaked especially for daze so it isn't eg nothing or loads of daze procs... ought to be more predictable for something like that - on first hit only maybe, or first and last hit, maybe on second and last hit only (giving opponents chance to react), etc - rather than guessing when it's going to proc.

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    If I must only talk about hard counters,

    I am surprised nobody said the oldest and the best counter there is: Thief.
    Other than that, all three guardian variants "counter" mesmer. Core and DH can actually kill it while FB can sustain the pressure easily.

    Conclusion: If you know how to play thief, it's the best counter. Second is core guard.

    Thief is a counter to power variants of mesmer. It is not a counter to condi mirage.

    laughts in plasma,plasma, dagger storm, dodge dodge,steal plasma plasma

    Yeah, that allows the Thief to fight the mesmer, not counter it.

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • Simonoly.4352Simonoly.4352 Member ✭✭✭

    As someone who has played variants of CI interrupt builds with staff/sceptre+pistol for many years now the best counter I found was S/D Thief. Can prevent the Mirage from kiting due to ports, has tiny skill channels so difficult for active interrupts and, as this Mirage build doesn't really burst like other Mirage builds in the past, when you dive in and out with sword 2 there's little immediate pressure. I started playing S/D Thief a few years ago too, because I wanted to know my best counter more. So I'm actually looking forward to brutalising people running CI builds with my S/D Thief 😉

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Simonoly.4352 said:
    As someone who has played variants of CI interrupt builds with staff/sceptre+pistol for many years now the best counter I found was S/D Thief. Can prevent the Mirage from kiting due to ports, has tiny skill channels so difficult for active interrupts and, as this Mirage build doesn't really burst like other Mirage builds in the past, when you dive in and out with sword 2 there's little immediate pressure. I started playing S/D Thief a few years ago too, because I wanted to know my best counter more. So I'm actually looking forward to brutalising people running CI builds with my S/D Thief 😉

    played against 2 thiefs the other day, literarly unplayable. they could run into 2 storms and take no damage :D if you somehow manage to fend them off for 3-4s they just dagger storm you down for 10k. at least most thiefs are bad at plat 1 so im safe for now

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