Do you think it will be a good idea to have raid finder matchmaker? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Do you think it will be a good idea to have raid finder matchmaker?

So as we know there is some drop in raid population and might be a good idea to have something to easy in people into raiding.
Something along the lines of hope in get slapped with all the training golem buffs + some stat buffs ( when the build templates come out suggested builds feature) , and get reduced number of rewards for it compared to the real deal. The other option is to be 25 man with the same scaling of the bosses in the instance.
Also this could work for first tier fractals.
Also to point out having more casual people raiding , would mean more need for new raids, since it will be a more prominent feature for the game.

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Comments

  • Krzysztof.5973Krzysztof.5973 Member ✭✭✭

    We have to get mechanics tutorial for this game with breakbars, condi vs. power, stats etc explained. Even after that it's not going to save raids. Either make them harder for target audience who actually does them or easier to main target of this game.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Oh another training raid thread, well as all others if it give loot like world bosses, 1 100% rare a week 2 blues and a green with chance of rare or exotic fine.
    No special raid drop currency or ascended skins, new achievements.
    I dont see how tier 1 fractals need this when anyone can join those and even if only 1 is experienced you will complete them.
    About the last sentence have you seen that work on the fractal releases yet?
    I know I havent we still get 1 to 1½ new a year.

  • @Vancho.8750 said:
    So as we know there is some drop in raid population and might be a good idea to have something to easy in people into raiding.

    How do we know this?

  • Krzysztof.5973Krzysztof.5973 Member ✭✭✭

    @lightinthedark.2596 said:
    How do we know this?

    SC is moving to FF14, other guilds are dying, skill cap in pugs is falling, last 2 wings were to easy and people are leaving, tpot quitting along with other streamers? Do I need to name more? It's not hard to notice if you are actually raiding.

  • @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @lightinthedark.2596 said:
    How do we know this?

    SC is moving to FF14, other guilds are dying, skill cap in pugs is falling, last 2 wings were to easy and people are leaving, tpot quitting along with other streamers? Do I need to name more? It's not hard to notice if you are actually raiding.

    Ok, so you have zero proof then. You need actual data..you know, hard evidence? This is just what you think and anecdotal experience lol. Tpot quitting? Wow, how will we EVER cope???

  • Susy.7529Susy.7529 Member ✭✭✭

    It would be a good feature but I bet it'll never be implemented in game.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    . The other option is to be 25 man with the same scaling of the bosses in the instance.
    Also this could work for first tier fractals.

    25 man first tier Fractals.
    Sure.
    I can just see the hype piece on it now:
    "Hey kids, you know how much fun it is trying to get a hit in on Metrica Event Completer night? Now you can have that same fun once a week with your 25 closest pals"

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lightinthedark.2596 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @lightinthedark.2596 said:
    How do we know this?

    SC is moving to FF14, other guilds are dying, skill cap in pugs is falling, last 2 wings were to easy and people are leaving, tpot quitting along with other streamers? Do I need to name more? It's not hard to notice if you are actually raiding.

    Ok, so you have zero proof then. You need actual data..you know, hard evidence? This is just what you think and anecdotal experience lol. Tpot quitting? Wow, how will we EVER cope???

    Ok. We dont know how the numbers will change. What wedo know is that the hardcore top is leaving after ERP. When hardcore players leave there will be no benchmarks from them so it will be harder for new raiders to start. Many static parties will lose few members and some of those players will quittoo because they will not find goid enough replecements.
    Without metabuilds overall skill will drop down and so raids will be harder. Many newcomers will leave because increse in dificulty. Some of the top players will also leave because they are used to certain standards.

  • @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    Ok. We dont know how the numbers will change. What wedo know is that the hardcore top is leaving after ERP. When hardcore players leave there will be no benchmarks from them so it will be harder for new raiders to start. Many static parties will lose few members and some of those players will quittoo because they will not find goid enough replecements.
    Without metabuilds overall skill will drop down and so raids will be harder. Many newcomers will leave because increse in dificulty. Some of the top players will also leave because they are used to certain standards.

    I'm not denying that Snowcrows have been very useful for the game and especially the raiding community, but I think you're overstating the impact of them moving on. People said exactly the same thing when QT was THE guild that did all the benchmarks and nothing happened. The game is bigger than one or two "top" guilds. Someone else will no doubt take their place and if not, we and the game will survive.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Without metabuilds overall skill will drop down and so raids will be harder. Many newcomers will leave because increse in dificulty. Some of the top players will also leave because they are used to certain standards.

    Build/=Skill
    Until you understand this, your thoughts on the topic have zero value.

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2019

    The system won't solve the problem OP addressed and the suggestions have and shares the same flaws. 10man Raid have it's issues, turning it into 25man is not a solution; just doubling the work to maintain both.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Without metabuilds overall skill will drop down and so raids will be harder. Many newcomers will leave because increse in dificulty. Some of the top players will also leave because they are used to certain standards.

    Build/=Skill
    Until you understand this, your thoughts on the topic have zero value.

    That's a very short sigthed statement. Yes, build and skill are different, but when a large part of the player base relies on others to tell them what to play, then it makes a difference when they leave.

    If a majority of the players who raid actually made their own builds and maximized them, then it would not make a big difference. Reality though is: most do not, but simply copy other people's work. As such the skill level of regular players might not drop (it remains the same) but their output will since they can not simply look up the latest meta builds. The net result remains the same: higher barrier of entry and higher difficulty for raids.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Without metabuilds overall skill will drop down and so raids will be harder. Many newcomers will leave because increse in dificulty. Some of the top players will also leave because they are used to certain standards.

    Build/=Skill
    Until you understand this, your thoughts on the topic have zero value.

    That's a very short sigthed statement. Yes, build and skill are different, but when a large part of the player base relies on others to tell them what to play, then it makes a difference when they leave.

    If a majority of the players who raid actually made their own builds and maximized them, then it would not make a big difference. Reality though is: most do not, but simply copy other people's work. As such the skill level of regular players might not drop (it remains the same) but their output will since they can not simply look up the latest meta builds. The net result remains the same: higher barrier of entry and higher difficulty for raids.

    Reality though is: A meta build is not needed to be effective in GW2 raid content.

  • ProtoGunner.4953ProtoGunner.4953 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They need different difficulties. LFR, Normal and Hard. Almost every MMO with high status has this. And now they are kitten here.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2019

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Without metabuilds overall skill will drop down and so raids will be harder. Many newcomers will leave because increse in dificulty. Some of the top players will also leave because they are used to certain standards.

    Build/=Skill
    Until you understand this, your thoughts on the topic have zero value.

    That's a very short sigthed statement. Yes, build and skill are different, but when a large part of the player base relies on others to tell them what to play, then it makes a difference when they leave.

    If a majority of the players who raid actually made their own builds and maximized them, then it would not make a big difference. Reality though is: most do not, but simply copy other people's work. As such the skill level of regular players might not drop (it remains the same) but their output will since they can not simply look up the latest meta builds. The net result remains the same: higher barrier of entry and higher difficulty for raids.

    Reality though is: A meta build is not needed to be effective in GW2 raid content.

    No it is not, but again, you are ignoring the actual issue: players not being able or willing to make builds which are efficient for content themselves.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2019

    Hardcore players are quitting or moving on. Nothing new. Additional easy versions of the already limited competitive content in this game wouldn't have made them stay. This change in direction would make even more of them quit.
    Neither is the overall raid population going to magically increase if we receive a LFR system. Anyone who has any interest in actual raiding is already busy raiding or has at least tried the raids at some point. Anyone who is reluctant due to reasons true or imagined will continue to stay away from raids. There will be far higher chances of failure without any limitations in place and failure gives rise to toxicity. Making people stay away even more.

    The only way such a system would cause a big impact is if we lock the best rewards behind raids and then turn them into a handout through easy modes. But then if we do this, there is no need for a LFR system in the first place. People manage to form squads for the newest, most profitable farm just fine without an auto-system...

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2019

    Unfortunately, i don't see LFR system working in the first place. Easy mode? Sure, good idea (even though it's probably way too late for that). Duty finder? Nope, won't work, considering that the party composition is a result of community agreement, not ingame requirements. LFR can be a thing in a game with hardcoded roles and stable party setup. Not in a game where not only classes do not have set roles, but also encounters do not have set role requirements.
    And as for 25-man instances... considering that one of the main bariers of entry is the increased group size in Raids, i don't think increasing those even more would bring in people that didn;t raid before.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Lorfi.7562Lorfi.7562 Member ✭✭

    @lightinthedark.2596 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    Ok. We dont know how the numbers will change. What wedo know is that the hardcore top is leaving after ERP. When hardcore players leave there will be no benchmarks from them so it will be harder for new raiders to start. Many static parties will lose few members and some of those players will quittoo because they will not find goid enough replecements.
    Without metabuilds overall skill will drop down and so raids will be harder. Many newcomers will leave because increse in dificulty. Some of the top players will also leave because they are used to certain standards.

    I'm not denying that Snowcrows have been very useful for the game and especially the raiding community, but I think you're overstating the impact of them moving on. People said exactly the same thing when QT was THE guild that did all the benchmarks and nothing happened. The game is bigger than one or two "top" guilds. Someone else will no doubt take their place and if not, we and the game will survive.

    yes and what guild is gonna replace SC? when qT quit we had roughly 7-10 HC guilds left, when SC left we have 1 HC guild left but as it is rn they'll most likely quit tho. And a good portion of the good raid sell guilds got/had members of the HC raiding guilds so even sell guilds will slowly die. If you refuse to accept that raids in gw2 are as good as done I feel bad for you.

    Also qT basically quit a short while after dhuum got released and main reason was burned out with the game, HC and better raiding guilds are leaving rn because anet is failing to provide raids that are worthy of being called raids on top of a just sad and horrible release schedule for a gaming company which is a giant difference.

    But yes it's anet their decision and right to not cater raids for raiders but people who don't and won't raid, but it's plain wrong to defend and/or accept that decision as a raider and gamer when a gamemode for the 1-5% of a game's population, which had a great welcome with the people it was released for, is just made for people who aren't even interested in end game content after the original release of w1-3 (w4 was a clear sign they didn't want difficult raids because they didn't care for gameplay or challenging content, but instead only for good reviews and easy money).

  • Kal Bhairav.6589Kal Bhairav.6589 Member ✭✭✭

    we desperately need this to keep raid alive.

  • @Lorfi.7562 said:

    yes and what guild is gonna replace SC? when qT quit we had roughly 7-10 HC guilds left, when SC left we have 1 HC guild left but as it is rn they'll most likely quit tho. And a good portion of the good raid sell guilds got/had members of the HC raiding guilds so even sell guilds will slowly die. If you refuse to accept that raids in gw2 are as good as done I feel bad for you.

    Don't feel bad for me. Feel bad for yourself that something so utterly trivial is keeping you awake at night. Tragic.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭

    The whole point of this post is to make raids larger part of the game if large portion of the people play them gets to make more of them. As it is now the cost of development might not be worth the effort. Larger participation even in the lowest difficulty could be used infront NCSOFT as excuse for continued development.

  • TanksK.4795TanksK.4795 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 26, 2019

    while I agree, I don't know it's possible to make LFR tho, there's no role in this game.
    If I were anet I would make all bosses to be cm repeatable with better reward for hardcore.

    For casual it's literally impossible for them to raid. First they have random gear, and don't want to wipe to the boss for learning. If it's not auto attack and probably use random skill the boss to death, they wouldn't do it. I still remember the hate to raids long ago when they decided to add raid to this game.

  • zoomborg.9462zoomborg.9462 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 27, 2019

    @lightinthedark.2596 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @lightinthedark.2596 said:
    How do we know this?

    SC is moving to FF14, other guilds are dying, skill cap in pugs is falling, last 2 wings were to easy and people are leaving, tpot quitting along with other streamers? Do I need to name more? It's not hard to notice if you are actually raiding.

    Ok, so you have zero proof then. You need actual data..you know, hard evidence? This is just what you think and anecdotal experience lol. Tpot quitting? Wow, how will we EVER cope???

    Communities have been a big part of the game since beta and Tpot has probably the biggest community in the game.You know, organizing stuff in open world, raids, wvw, pvp etc. And guess what, as soon as teapot moves a big part of that community is gonna go as well. You can keep on being sarcastic but it doesnt change the fact that this game is slowly falling apart. At least the MMO part of it. As for proof you dont need any. As long as you keep up with stuff, community discords, reddit etc etc you know all you need to know. We usually have 1-2 SC people raiding with us cause simply everyone else left for other better prospects. The part about the pug skill cap is also true. Doing an FC with pugs atm is a pure nightmare unless you join on a monday morning those groups that require 100 + dhumm kp .

  • Kal Bhairav.6589Kal Bhairav.6589 Member ✭✭✭

    @zoomborg.9462 said:

    @lightinthedark.2596 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @lightinthedark.2596 said:
    How do we know this?

    SC is moving to FF14, other guilds are dying, skill cap in pugs is falling, last 2 wings were to easy and people are leaving, tpot quitting along with other streamers? Do I need to name more? It's not hard to notice if you are actually raiding.

    Ok, so you have zero proof then. You need actual data..you know, hard evidence? This is just what you think and anecdotal experience lol. Tpot quitting? Wow, how will we EVER cope???

    Communities have been a big part of the game since beta and Tpot has probably the biggest community in the game.You know, organizing stuff in open world, raids, wvw, pvp etc. And guess what, as soon as teapot moves a big part of that community is gonna go as well. You can keep on being sarcastic but it doesnt change the fact that this game is slowly falling apart. At least the MMO part of it. As for proof you dont need any. As long as you keep up with stuff, community discords, reddit etc etc you know all you need to know. We usually have 1-2 SC people raiding with us cause simply everyone else left for other better prospects. The part about the pug skill cap is also true. Doing an FC with pugs atm is a pure nightmare unless you join on a monday morning those groups that require 100 + dhumm kp .

    communities actually killed the raid. Like you said 100+ dhuum kp and raid seller has killed this raiding communities. I remember up until w5 came out, there were plenty of pug doing raids. I actually cleared raid in pug (never static) every week for a year and half. As soon as W5 came out, pug died.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kal Bhairav.6589 said:

    @zoomborg.9462 said:

    @lightinthedark.2596 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @lightinthedark.2596 said:
    How do we know this?

    SC is moving to FF14, other guilds are dying, skill cap in pugs is falling, last 2 wings were to easy and people are leaving, tpot quitting along with other streamers? Do I need to name more? It's not hard to notice if you are actually raiding.

    Ok, so you have zero proof then. You need actual data..you know, hard evidence? This is just what you think and anecdotal experience lol. Tpot quitting? Wow, how will we EVER cope???

    Communities have been a big part of the game since beta and Tpot has probably the biggest community in the game.You know, organizing stuff in open world, raids, wvw, pvp etc. And guess what, as soon as teapot moves a big part of that community is gonna go as well. You can keep on being sarcastic but it doesnt change the fact that this game is slowly falling apart. At least the MMO part of it. As for proof you dont need any. As long as you keep up with stuff, community discords, reddit etc etc you know all you need to know. We usually have 1-2 SC people raiding with us cause simply everyone else left for other better prospects. The part about the pug skill cap is also true. Doing an FC with pugs atm is a pure nightmare unless you join on a monday morning those groups that require 100 + dhumm kp .

    communities actually killed the raid. Like you said 100+ dhuum kp and raid seller has killed this raiding communities. I remember up until w5 came out, there were plenty of pug doing raids. I actually cleared raid in pug (never static) every week for a year and half. As soon as W5 came out, pug died.

    And what is stopping you from making squads with less kill proof or even zero?

  • zoomborg.9462zoomborg.9462 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kal Bhairav.6589 said:

    @zoomborg.9462 said:

    @lightinthedark.2596 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @lightinthedark.2596 said:
    How do we know this?

    SC is moving to FF14, other guilds are dying, skill cap in pugs is falling, last 2 wings were to easy and people are leaving, tpot quitting along with other streamers? Do I need to name more? It's not hard to notice if you are actually raiding.

    Ok, so you have zero proof then. You need actual data..you know, hard evidence? This is just what you think and anecdotal experience lol. Tpot quitting? Wow, how will we EVER cope???

    Communities have been a big part of the game since beta and Tpot has probably the biggest community in the game.You know, organizing stuff in open world, raids, wvw, pvp etc. And guess what, as soon as teapot moves a big part of that community is gonna go as well. You can keep on being sarcastic but it doesnt change the fact that this game is slowly falling apart. At least the MMO part of it. As for proof you dont need any. As long as you keep up with stuff, community discords, reddit etc etc you know all you need to know. We usually have 1-2 SC people raiding with us cause simply everyone else left for other better prospects. The part about the pug skill cap is also true. Doing an FC with pugs atm is a pure nightmare unless you join on a monday morning those groups that require 100 + dhumm kp .

    communities actually killed the raid. Like you said 100+ dhuum kp and raid seller has killed this raiding communities. I remember up until w5 came out, there were plenty of pug doing raids. I actually cleared raid in pug (never static) every week for a year and half. As soon as W5 came out, pug died.

    W5 was literally the pug killer, mistakes usually meant death and everyone had to know mechanics cause it could wipe the whole raid. Having one person on dhumm not knowing mechanics instantly means the raid will wipe as long as he gets any random mechanic. It's almost the same for the whole wing. To a lesser extend the same applies to wing 6, doing mistakes will at best kill you but there is a high chance you will wipe the whole raid. This is why people focused on getting static groups and moved away from pugging. And it is also why w5-w6 are probably the highest quality raids atm. Mechanically complex and punishing.

    As for kp, anyone is entitled to put whatever requirement they want. I can put 200kp if i want, even if no1 joins the group,it is still my right to do what i want with my squad lfg. This is just a lame excuse for people who dont wanna create their own lfg out of boredom or incompetence.

  • Kal Bhairav.6589Kal Bhairav.6589 Member ✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Kal Bhairav.6589 said:

    @zoomborg.9462 said:

    @lightinthedark.2596 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @lightinthedark.2596 said:
    How do we know this?

    SC is moving to FF14, other guilds are dying, skill cap in pugs is falling, last 2 wings were to easy and people are leaving, tpot quitting along with other streamers? Do I need to name more? It's not hard to notice if you are actually raiding.

    Ok, so you have zero proof then. You need actual data..you know, hard evidence? This is just what you think and anecdotal experience lol. Tpot quitting? Wow, how will we EVER cope???

    Communities have been a big part of the game since beta and Tpot has probably the biggest community in the game.You know, organizing stuff in open world, raids, wvw, pvp etc. And guess what, as soon as teapot moves a big part of that community is gonna go as well. You can keep on being sarcastic but it doesnt change the fact that this game is slowly falling apart. At least the MMO part of it. As for proof you dont need any. As long as you keep up with stuff, community discords, reddit etc etc you know all you need to know. We usually have 1-2 SC people raiding with us cause simply everyone else left for other better prospects. The part about the pug skill cap is also true. Doing an FC with pugs atm is a pure nightmare unless you join on a monday morning those groups that require 100 + dhumm kp .

    communities actually killed the raid. Like you said 100+ dhuum kp and raid seller has killed this raiding communities. I remember up until w5 came out, there were plenty of pug doing raids. I actually cleared raid in pug (never static) every week for a year and half. As soon as W5 came out, pug died.

    And what is stopping you from making squads with less kill proof or even zero?

    nothing, I am just simply saying, attitude like yours doesn't help raid communites. Its not in my interest to keep raid alive anyway. I am just a follower.

  • Kal Bhairav.6589Kal Bhairav.6589 Member ✭✭✭

    @zoomborg.9462 said:

    @Kal Bhairav.6589 said:

    @zoomborg.9462 said:

    @lightinthedark.2596 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @lightinthedark.2596 said:
    How do we know this?

    SC is moving to FF14, other guilds are dying, skill cap in pugs is falling, last 2 wings were to easy and people are leaving, tpot quitting along with other streamers? Do I need to name more? It's not hard to notice if you are actually raiding.

    Ok, so you have zero proof then. You need actual data..you know, hard evidence? This is just what you think and anecdotal experience lol. Tpot quitting? Wow, how will we EVER cope???

    Communities have been a big part of the game since beta and Tpot has probably the biggest community in the game.You know, organizing stuff in open world, raids, wvw, pvp etc. And guess what, as soon as teapot moves a big part of that community is gonna go as well. You can keep on being sarcastic but it doesnt change the fact that this game is slowly falling apart. At least the MMO part of it. As for proof you dont need any. As long as you keep up with stuff, community discords, reddit etc etc you know all you need to know. We usually have 1-2 SC people raiding with us cause simply everyone else left for other better prospects. The part about the pug skill cap is also true. Doing an FC with pugs atm is a pure nightmare unless you join on a monday morning those groups that require 100 + dhumm kp .

    communities actually killed the raid. Like you said 100+ dhuum kp and raid seller has killed this raiding communities. I remember up until w5 came out, there were plenty of pug doing raids. I actually cleared raid in pug (never static) every week for a year and half. As soon as W5 came out, pug died.

    W5 was literally the pug killer, mistakes usually meant death and everyone had to know mechanics cause it could wipe the whole raid. Having one person on dhumm not knowing mechanics instantly means the raid will wipe as long as he gets any random mechanic. It's almost the same for the whole wing. To a lesser extend the same applies to wing 6, doing mistakes will at best kill you but there is a high chance you will wipe the whole raid. This is why people focused on getting static groups and moved away from pugging. And it is also why w5-w6 are probably the highest quality raids atm. Mechanically complex and punishing.

    As for kp, anyone is entitled to put whatever requirement they want. I can put 200kp if i want, even if no1 joins the group,it is still my right to do what i want with my squad lfg. This is just a lame excuse for people who dont wanna create their own lfg out of boredom or incompetence.

    I agree what you said about w5 difficulties. This game was meant to be for casual. When anet tried to mix the flavor both side suffered.

  • GoldenPants.1870GoldenPants.1870 Member ✭✭
    edited July 28, 2019

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    So as we know there is some drop in raid population and might be a good idea to have something to easy in people into raiding.
    Something along the lines of hope in get slapped with all the training golem buffs + some stat buffs ( when the build templates come out suggested builds feature) , and get reduced number of rewards for it compared to the real deal. The other option is to be 25 man with the same scaling of the bosses in the instance.
    Also this could work for first tier fractals.
    Also to point out having more casual people raiding , would mean more need for new raids, since it will be a more prominent feature for the game.

    No raid loot, which means only ascended loot, only exotics or unidentified at max. Then I would be okay with a raid finder.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 28, 2019

    @Kal Bhairav.6589 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Kal Bhairav.6589 said:

    @zoomborg.9462 said:

    @lightinthedark.2596 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @lightinthedark.2596 said:
    How do we know this?

    SC is moving to FF14, other guilds are dying, skill cap in pugs is falling, last 2 wings were to easy and people are leaving, tpot quitting along with other streamers? Do I need to name more? It's not hard to notice if you are actually raiding.

    Ok, so you have zero proof then. You need actual data..you know, hard evidence? This is just what you think and anecdotal experience lol. Tpot quitting? Wow, how will we EVER cope???

    Communities have been a big part of the game since beta and Tpot has probably the biggest community in the game.You know, organizing stuff in open world, raids, wvw, pvp etc. And guess what, as soon as teapot moves a big part of that community is gonna go as well. You can keep on being sarcastic but it doesnt change the fact that this game is slowly falling apart. At least the MMO part of it. As for proof you dont need any. As long as you keep up with stuff, community discords, reddit etc etc you know all you need to know. We usually have 1-2 SC people raiding with us cause simply everyone else left for other better prospects. The part about the pug skill cap is also true. Doing an FC with pugs atm is a pure nightmare unless you join on a monday morning those groups that require 100 + dhumm kp .

    communities actually killed the raid. Like you said 100+ dhuum kp and raid seller has killed this raiding communities. I remember up until w5 came out, there were plenty of pug doing raids. I actually cleared raid in pug (never static) every week for a year and half. As soon as W5 came out, pug died.

    And what is stopping you from making squads with less kill proof or even zero?

    nothing, I am just simply saying, attitude like yours doesn't help raid communites. Its not in my interest to keep raid alive anyway. I am just a follower.

    Nah, I'd say the "I am just a follower" attitude is pretty much spot on with what is the issue here. People want OTHERS to do the work for them. If more people took initiative, the situation would be way different.

  • Kal Bhairav.6589Kal Bhairav.6589 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Kal Bhairav.6589 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Kal Bhairav.6589 said:

    @zoomborg.9462 said:

    @lightinthedark.2596 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @lightinthedark.2596 said:
    How do we know this?

    SC is moving to FF14, other guilds are dying, skill cap in pugs is falling, last 2 wings were to easy and people are leaving, tpot quitting along with other streamers? Do I need to name more? It's not hard to notice if you are actually raiding.

    Ok, so you have zero proof then. You need actual data..you know, hard evidence? This is just what you think and anecdotal experience lol. Tpot quitting? Wow, how will we EVER cope???

    Communities have been a big part of the game since beta and Tpot has probably the biggest community in the game.You know, organizing stuff in open world, raids, wvw, pvp etc. And guess what, as soon as teapot moves a big part of that community is gonna go as well. You can keep on being sarcastic but it doesnt change the fact that this game is slowly falling apart. At least the MMO part of it. As for proof you dont need any. As long as you keep up with stuff, community discords, reddit etc etc you know all you need to know. We usually have 1-2 SC people raiding with us cause simply everyone else left for other better prospects. The part about the pug skill cap is also true. Doing an FC with pugs atm is a pure nightmare unless you join on a monday morning those groups that require 100 + dhumm kp .

    communities actually killed the raid. Like you said 100+ dhuum kp and raid seller has killed this raiding communities. I remember up until w5 came out, there were plenty of pug doing raids. I actually cleared raid in pug (never static) every week for a year and half. As soon as W5 came out, pug died.

    And what is stopping you from making squads with less kill proof or even zero?

    nothing, I am just simply saying, attitude like yours doesn't help raid communites. Its not in my interest to keep raid alive anyway. I am just a follower.

    Nah, I'd say the "I am just a follower" attitude is pretty much spot on with what is the issue here. People want OTHERS to do the work for them. If more people took initiative, the situation would be way different.

    People dont live and breathe this game. Like I said, game was more focused on casual. This is how we roll. It is not my job to make game better or worse. I don't get paid to play. I pay to play. I will play until I find it interesting. This game had few HC guilds doing raids and setting up benchmark. But, it didn't help, did it? Anet lost casual crowd coz of w5. And, in process to get them back they lost Hardcore crowd as well.
    We can argue back and forth about opinion about who is right. But, its just my observation that raid is losing its population. I know you like to argue about stuff that you don't agree with but sometime you can be wrong as well :).

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kal Bhairav.6589 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Kal Bhairav.6589 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Kal Bhairav.6589 said:

    @zoomborg.9462 said:

    @lightinthedark.2596 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:

    @lightinthedark.2596 said:
    How do we know this?

    SC is moving to FF14, other guilds are dying, skill cap in pugs is falling, last 2 wings were to easy and people are leaving, tpot quitting along with other streamers? Do I need to name more? It's not hard to notice if you are actually raiding.

    Ok, so you have zero proof then. You need actual data..you know, hard evidence? This is just what you think and anecdotal experience lol. Tpot quitting? Wow, how will we EVER cope???

    Communities have been a big part of the game since beta and Tpot has probably the biggest community in the game.You know, organizing stuff in open world, raids, wvw, pvp etc. And guess what, as soon as teapot moves a big part of that community is gonna go as well. You can keep on being sarcastic but it doesnt change the fact that this game is slowly falling apart. At least the MMO part of it. As for proof you dont need any. As long as you keep up with stuff, community discords, reddit etc etc you know all you need to know. We usually have 1-2 SC people raiding with us cause simply everyone else left for other better prospects. The part about the pug skill cap is also true. Doing an FC with pugs atm is a pure nightmare unless you join on a monday morning those groups that require 100 + dhumm kp .

    communities actually killed the raid. Like you said 100+ dhuum kp and raid seller has killed this raiding communities. I remember up until w5 came out, there were plenty of pug doing raids. I actually cleared raid in pug (never static) every week for a year and half. As soon as W5 came out, pug died.

    And what is stopping you from making squads with less kill proof or even zero?

    nothing, I am just simply saying, attitude like yours doesn't help raid communites. Its not in my interest to keep raid alive anyway. I am just a follower.

    Nah, I'd say the "I am just a follower" attitude is pretty much spot on with what is the issue here. People want OTHERS to do the work for them. If more people took initiative, the situation would be way different.

    People dont live and breathe this game. Like I said, game was more focused on casual. This is how we roll. It is not my job to make game better or worse. I don't get paid to play. I pay to play. I will play until I find it interesting. This game had few HC guilds doing raids and setting up benchmark. But, it didn't help, did it? Anet lost casual crowd coz of w5. And, in process to get them back they lost Hardcore crowd as well.
    We can argue back and forth about opinion about who is right. But, its just my observation that raid is losing its population. I know you like to argue about stuff that you don't agree with but sometime you can be wrong as well :).

    Fractals were added in November of 2012. They were quite challenging I'd say. You know what changed? People now want the rewards from the challeging content.

    Sure I can be wrong. Not sure how one can be wrong about subjective issues. One can be part of a solution though instead of just gripping about things. Not actively being part of the solution but calling others out as part of the problem seems hardly constructive would you not agree?

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 29, 2019

    Let's suppose raids are dying... Easy modes or an LFR system wouldn't save our raids in their current form.
    The reasons behind the departure of so many members of our community is the increasing lack of like-minded players and even more so the lack of incoming appropriate content to keep the remaining members interested or to make some of them return.
    Making a larger number casual players try raids will hardly lead to a noticeable increase in these semi-hardcore let alone hardcore populations. They might wet their toes in raid content through some sort of "easy modes" or through the use of a "LFR system" but they will hardly progress towards becoming part of an even semi-skilled static. The tiny group between them who might end up doing so will run into the same issues everyone else faces:
    A lack of appropriate content to satisfy anyone looking for competitive PvE content.
    The raids might be turned into something different of course. More casual content for a casual majority but that would hardly stop those departures of popular streamers and hardcore guilds people are so shocked over.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 29, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Fractals were added in November of 2012. They were quite challenging I'd say. You know what changed? People now want the rewards from the challeging content.

    The rewards were made so people would want them. Anet thought it would make the people wanting those rewards to play better. That didn't work out as well as intended though - some did get better, others got better but then burned out due to farming a stressful content they didn't like, but most just got bitter after seeing the rewards to be placed just out of their reach. In the end, the raid population ended up being too small to be sustainable, and Anet, trying to fix it by lowering difficulty this time, only made the matter worse. Because the content still isn't easy enough for the casual majority to run it, but it is too easy to hold the interest of the hardcore raider minority for too long.

    It was too much investment for not enough gain, aimed at a target group that was either not too clearly defined, or one whose size Anet overestimated (or both).

    Sure I can be wrong. Not sure how one can be wrong about subjective issues. One can be part of a solution though instead of just gripping about things.

    But that's the point - not many people are actually interested in keeping the raids around. That's because raids were not meant for many people in the first place.

    Especially if the effort to keep them afloat would almost certainly make at least some part of the community angry.

    (Same up to a certain point can be said about the challenging parts of Fractals)

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Fractals were added in November of 2012. They were quite challenging I'd say. You know what changed? People now want the rewards from the challeging content.

    The rewards were made so people would want them. Anet thought it would make the people wanting those rewards to play better. That didn't work out as well as intended though - some did get better, others got better but then burned out due to farming a stressful content they didn't like, but most just got bitter after seeing the rewards to be placed just out of their reach. In the end, the raid population ended up being too small to be sustainable, and Anet, trying to fix it by lowering difficulty this time, only made the matter worse. Because the content still isn't easy enough for the casual majority to run it, but it is too easy to hold the interest of the hardcore raider minority for too long.

    It was too much investment for not enough gain, aimed at a target group that was either not too clearly defined, or one whose size Anet overestimated (or both).

    I agree. I do think challenging content and especially fractals were designed to encourage people to get better and enjoy higher rewards for beating more difficult content. Unfortunately this effect only partially set in. I think as with every normal distribution, with more fractal players there is more good players, more mediocre players and more bad players. All of which can be attributed to a more fun but complex combat system.

    I can't comment on the hardcore crowd. While I enjoy challenging content I never saw GW2 as a game which was fill with it. The other issue is that the reward structure does not encourage players to stick with the challenging content. How many raids and high rank fractals can a player run before he has everything? In other raid games it's nearly infinite due to gear depreciation. Here it's anywhere between getting the first legendary armor and the 3rd for most.

    Best seen with the complete desinterest in the new raid wings. Nobody cares for wings 5-7.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Sure I can be wrong. Not sure how one can be wrong about subjective issues. One can be part of a solution though instead of just gripping about things.

    But that's the point - not many people are actually interested in keeping the raids around. That's because raids were not meant for many people in the first place.

    Especially if the effort to keep them afloat would almost certainly make at least some part of the community angry.

    (Same up to a certain point can be said about the challenging parts of Fractals)

    True, and I myself am unsure what the correct approach is. I don't think a game remains popular with a lot of players once the hardcore crowd moves on. They are often the ones who create content, who take time to make guides, who beat difficult bosses, etc.

    My comment was more intended to once again encourage people to not always look to others for answers.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    No,or maybe yes if it was only for nm and not for cm and they made cm repeatable.

    lfr killed a lot of the community and mmo aspect of wow, i dont want that to happen in gw2.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭

    @zealex.9410 said:
    No,or maybe yes if it was only for nm and not for cm and they made cm repeatable.

    lfr killed a lot of the community and mmo aspect of wow, i dont want that to happen in gw2.

    LFR is kept WoW raids relevant for the majority of people, the casual, what killed mmo aspects is that they removed the RPG part of the game, the world meant something. You could be casual and do dungeons, craft stuff, kill stuff and farm in open world now the main part is the Raid, because of it they gutted the rest of the game, there is not point for it, its all about that iLVL so you can raid and if there wasn't LFR for the casual, there wouldn't be raids at all since there is kitten all to do there these days.
    And here if you don't get more people to play the mode it will get dungeoned.
    Get easy mode for everyone with buffs or something with some nice rewards, keep the normal as is and it having better rewards and make CMs with repeatable rewards idk with dungeon or the festival infinite stacking achievements and make them harder. Add the story encounters as raids,dungeons, fractals slap a rebrand like fractal time broken raid with added special raid boss challenge instabilities add some kind of mastery skill progression with some kind of collection that buffs the tank, support and the dps so you have to grind some normal raids so there is some kind of progression. You craft your uber CM skill for every boss and you will need it for the him and the last boss. Bam, done, you have some work to do for CMs if you want to farm them and you aren't there wiping for few hours only the first day till you get it. Everything for everyone like the rest of the game. LFR in GW2 would probably work better than WoW since everything is super casual anyway maybe some will stick around and try to do normal.
    Raids also need more fancy armor pieces that have to be farmed from bosses and only bosses, the Raid set effect ooo i want that and i have to raid for it.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2, 2019

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    Raids also need more fancy armor pieces that have to be farmed from bosses and only bosses, the Raid set effect ooo i want that and i have to raid for it.

    It's called legendary armor and it's the main reason why people who do not enjoy raiding constantly come here demanding the content be made easier.

    As to LFR in WoW, that's not raiding. That's gloryfied themepark content which provides buffs and guarantees success for the lowest common denominator in the player base (and given their terrible warforged system of RNG forces even raiders to do the content). We have that here too: it's called world bosses and works nearly the same way just with more players.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    Raids also need more fancy armor pieces that have to be farmed from bosses and only bosses, the Raid set effect ooo i want that and i have to raid for it.

    It's called legendary armor and it's the main reason why people who do not enjoy raiding constantly come here demanding the content be made easier.

    As to LFR in WoW, that's not raiding. That's gloryfied themepark content which provides buffs and guarantees success for the lowest common denominator in the player base (and given their terrible warforged system of RNG forces even raiders to do the content). We have that here too: it's called world bosses and works nearly the same way just with more players.

    And it works great as an excuse to do more raids since everyone is doing them there. Mister Money with the charts doesn't care if the content is good, easy or hard, he care if the content puts people butts in front of the monitor and the % of them that that click on the gem store. If raids are main part of the game for everyone you get more raids.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 3, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    As to LFR in WoW, that's not raiding. That's gloryfied themepark content which provides buffs and guarantees success for the lowest common denominator in the player base (and given their terrible warforged system of RNG forces even raiders to do the content).

    That's for you. From developer's side though, there's absolutely no difference - both modes require identical work. They are the same content, just balanced at a different level.

    We have that here too: it's called world bosses and works nearly the same way just with more players.

    Work Bosses are a completely different content, though. People doing Wolrd Bosses do no justify putting any effort into raid content. People doing easy mode however do.

    In the end, all insisting on no easy mode did for raiders was making Anet think Raids were not worth the effort. And the lowered difficulty can probably be blamed on the same thing - Anet started to lower difficulty in normal mode, because it was the only mode available, and they did want to expand the raid playerbase to justify continuing doing them.

    Well, that ship has sailed. I doubt raids are now even worth enough of the effort that would be necessary to try to save them. They will be simply left to die on their own.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 3, 2019

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    Raids also need more fancy armor pieces that have to be farmed from bosses and only bosses, the Raid set effect ooo i want that and i have to raid for it.

    It's called legendary armor and it's the main reason why people who do not enjoy raiding constantly come here demanding the content be made easier.

    As to LFR in WoW, that's not raiding. That's gloryfied themepark content which provides buffs and guarantees success for the lowest common denominator in the player base (and given their terrible warforged system of RNG forces even raiders to do the content). We have that here too: it's called world bosses and works nearly the same way just with more players.

    And it works great as an excuse to do more raids since everyone is doing them there. Mister Money with the charts doesn't care if the content is good, easy or hard, he care if the content puts people butts in front of the monitor and the % of them that that click on the gem store. If raids are main part of the game for everyone you get more raids.

    We already have LFR type content in this game, and Mr Money is producing overproportionate amounts of content for that player base. It's called open world bosses.

    The main difference is that LFR bosses in WoW and similar designed games provide throwaway loot into their gear threadmill cycle which is not possible here since gear level is capped.

    I have yet to see any statistic or research which shows that LFR has increased the raiding population. On the contrary, the throwaway wellfare gear has caused serious progression issues and all metrics suggest that the raid population has remained the same.

    If people simply want to call themselves raiders, fine, add a group finder for open world maps. Call it LFR and be done with it. Or remove all mechanics from raid bosses, increase their hitpoint pools, reduce rewards appropriately and have an auto grouping tool and call that LFR. Both of those approaches have as much in common woth raiding as WoW's LFR does: nothing.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    As to LFR in WoW, that's not raiding. That's gloryfied themepark content which provides buffs and guarantees success for the lowest common denominator in the player base (and given their terrible warforged system of RNG forces even raiders to do the content).

    That's for you. From developer's side though, there's absolutely no difference - both modes require identical work. They are the same content, just balanced at a different level.

    We have that here too: it's called world bosses and works nearly the same way just with more players.

    Work Bosses are a completely different content, though. People doing Wolrd Bosses do no justify putting any effort into raid content. People doing easy mode however do.

    They are not though once you look past how a feature is named and how people actually participate in it.

    Let's for a moment rename LFR for what it actually is on the basis of what it provides: an auto grouping, nearly no mechanics with fail safe buffs to guarantee success loot generator which allows people to feel as though they had contributed in a raid environment.

    That's almost exactly what world bosses do in GW2 minus the loot (since no gear progression here) and the name. Fine, so let's make an auto grouping feature for GW2 open world bosses, we already have the world boss portal device. Let's name that LFR and mirror the exact thing WoW does (minus the loot again because we don't have progression here).

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    And the lowered difficulty can probably be blamed on the same thing - Anet started to lower difficulty in normal mode, because it was the only mode available, and they did want to expand the raid playerbase to justify continuing doing them.

    Nah that's probably because they stopped inviting guilds to the development process and instead do whatever they want.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    And the lowered difficulty can probably be blamed on the same thing - Anet started to lower difficulty in normal mode, because it was the only mode available, and they did want to expand the raid playerbase to justify continuing doing them.

    Nah that's probably because they stopped inviting guilds to the development process and instead do whatever they want.

    They probably stopped inviting top tier guilds because, unlike before, they didn't want to balance the encounters around those guilds' capability and skill level.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Katary.7096Katary.7096 Member ✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    In the end, all insisting on no easy mode did for raiders was making Anet think Raids were not worth the effort. And the lowered difficulty can probably be blamed on the same thing - Anet started to lower difficulty in normal mode, because it was the only mode available, and they did want to expand the raid playerbase to justify continuing doing them.

    That sounds almost as if there was a decision made by the community. Please remember that everytime Arenanet commented on an easy difficulty setting for raids, their statement included a variation of "raid content has to remain the most challenging PvE content in the game". The current state of the game represents the company's stance, not the will of the playerbase. Then there is the fact that early in HoT the developers claimed that the success of the raid content exceeded their expectations, meaning that the supposed conviction, that raid content needs to be easier in order to appeal to a larger audience, should have developed later. At the end of the HoT cycle we can find numerous reasons for a decline of the raiding scene: The time it takes for new content to be released, the quality of said content, in the case of wing 4 specifically (and ironically) the ease of the normal modes and the fact that the people who were motivated by legendary armor had gotten their carrot. The whole story is not at all black and white.
    At the current time they do need more players from the non-raiding population to play the content simply to replace those that have quit. (If their goal is to recapture the success which pleasantly surprised them in the past.) But while I have heard that wing 7 was a disappointment for the "hardcore" audience, any evidence that it pulled in large crowds of "casuals" to try raid content for the first time eludes me. It seems to me that the strategy of trying to please both sides is satifying neither, then again I don't have the numbers.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Katary.7096 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    In the end, all insisting on no easy mode did for raiders was making Anet think Raids were not worth the effort. And the lowered difficulty can probably be blamed on the same thing - Anet started to lower difficulty in normal mode, because it was the only mode available, and they did want to expand the raid playerbase to justify continuing doing them.

    That sounds almost as if there was a decision made by the community.

    Oh, it wasn't a decision made by the community, but still the voiced opinion of the main target group for raids was likely something Anet did consider during design. Remember, that the very existence of raids was a result of listening to that part of the community.

    Please remember that everytime Arenanet commented on an easy difficulty setting for raids, their statement included a variation of "raid content has to remain the most challenging PvE content in the game". The current state of the game represents the company's stance, not the will of the playerbase.

    So, you think that the company stance had absolutely no relation to the desires of that part of the community?

    Then there is the fact that early in HoT the developers claimed that the success of the raid content exceeded their expectations, meaning that the supposed conviction, that raid content needs to be easier in order to appeal to a larger audience, should have developed later.

    Sure, that likely only came after w5 and what its difficulty level did to diminish the raid community. Also, i would take dev claims from that time with a grain of salt. I do remember them saying the same about HoT in general, way before they had to fix OW there because noone wanted to play it.

    At the end of the HoT cycle we can find numerous reasons for a decline of the raiding scene: The time it takes for new content to be released, the quality of said content, in the case of wing 4 specifically (and ironically) the ease of the normal modes

    You do realize that w4 seems to have the best participation numbers among all the wings? Only VG has better ones, and probably only due to being the very first boss most people start with.

    At the current time they do need more players from the non-raiding population to play the content simply to replace those that have quit. (If their goal is to recapture the success which pleasantly surprised them in the past.) But while I have heard that wing 7 was a disappointment for the "hardcore" audience, any evidence that it pulled in large crowds of "casuals" to try raid content for the first time eludes me.

    Because it didn't. It was still way too difficult for that.

    It seems to me that the strategy of trying to please both sides is satifying neither

    Oh, i think that too. I thought that would be the case the very moment raids were announced, and so far it seems i was right then.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Katary.7096Katary.7096 Member ✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Oh, it wasn't a decision made by the community, but still the voiced opinion of the main target group for raids was likely something Anet did consider during design. Remember, that the very existence of raids was a result of listening to that part of the community.

    True, though the original idea was to cater to that crowd with the core game's dungeons which proved less than sufficient and since Arenanet seems to have a soft spot for innovating they made something new instead of reworking the existing content.

    So, you think that the company stance had absolutely no relation to the desires of that part of the community?

    Absolutely no relation? No. I'd say it was mostly without relation. Take a look at the WvW subculture, they have seen relatively little developer attention for years while players were discussing multiple potential improvements, and then they get a mount. When Arenanet has made a plan they tend follow it to the letter, no matter what kind of feedback they receive.

    Sure, that likely only came after w5 and what its difficulty level did to diminish the raid community.

    Can we say with certainty that the diminishing effect was due to wing 5 instead of wing 4? When we are talking about the raid community at the time of the Forsaken Thicket being completed it could be just as likely that the problem was the ease of wing 4 as opposed to the difficulty of wing 5. That particular chronological spike in challenge demotivated those, who had dipped their toes into raids with the early encounters of wing 4, not the people that had been raiding since wing 1 or 2.

    Also, i would take dev claims from that time with a grain of salt. I do remember them saying the same about HoT in general, way before they had to fix OW there because noone wanted to play it.

    Fair point. Probably a smart choice for all developer statements.

    You do realize that w4 seems to have the best participation numbers among all the wings?

    To be honest, I haven't looked up the numbers or rather estimates for that. Then again, the frequency with which pug groups disband once they get to Deimos leads me to believe that wing 4 was about as effective at growing the raid community as the Warclaw was for the growth of the WvW population, at least in the long run.

    Only VG has better ones, and probably only due to being the very first boss most people start with.

    A reasonable assumption, but that doesn't take away from the fact that VG is pretty great as an introductory raid boss.

    Because it didn't. It was still way too difficult for that.

    One could say that they managed to compromise the content for the original target audience with no clear benefit so far. Or perhaps maddoctor is pretty spot on and the devs have a less than precise vision for the difficulty level of raid content, at the very least it is flexible.

    Oh, i think that too. I thought that would be the case the very moment raids were announced, and so far it seems i was right then.

    Are you referring to the bigger picture? As in "hardcore" content not being a good fit for Guild Wars 2? Because I remember the first few months of raids as niche content which was providing a satifying experience for a niche audience.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2019

    @Katary.7096 said:

    Oh, i think that too. I thought that would be the case the very moment raids were announced, and so far it seems i was right then.

    Are you referring to the bigger picture? As in "hardcore" content not being a good fit for Guild Wars 2? Because I remember the first few months of raids as niche content which was providing a satifying experience for a niche audience.

    No. I meant that it was clear to me from the get go, that going just a little bit hardcore and supplying only a bot of raids wouldn't satisfy the hardcore crowd in the long run. That it simply wouldn't be enough, unless Anet went raid-heavy and made them the main point of the game (which would lose them a big part of the casual community). At the same time, it was also clear that merely introducing raids would have some negative impact on non-raiders. There was a number of GW2 players for whom this game having no raids was a major point. Besides, even the little of the raid content Anet introduced caused some massive ripples all over the community, and heavily impacted fractals, for example.
    Yes, short-term reception of raids among the hardcore players was good, but it was only short-term, and complains about not enough content, and/or it being not difficult/rewarding enough, started relatively fast. Casual community reception at the same time was indifferent at best and wildly hostile at worst. Ultimately Anet ended up spending a ton of effort on content that wasn't wanted by a huge majority of players, and was not satisfactory to the remaining minority.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Katary.7096 said:

    Oh, i think that too. I thought that would be the case the very moment raids were announced, and so far it seems i was right then.

    Are you referring to the bigger picture? As in "hardcore" content not being a good fit for Guild Wars 2? Because I remember the first few months of raids as niche content which was providing a satifying experience for a niche audience.

    No. I meant that it was clear to me from the get go, that going just a little bit hardcore and supplying only a bot of raids wouldn't satisfy the hardcore crowd in the long run. That it simply wouldn't be enough, unless Anet went raid-heavy and made them the main point of the game (which would lose them a big part of the casual community). At the same time, it was also clear that merely introducing raids would have some negative impact on non-raiders. There was a number of GW2 players for whom this game having no raids was a major point. Besides, even the little of the raid content Anet introduced caused some massive ripples all over the community, and heavily impacted fractals, for example.
    Yes, short-term reception of raids among the hardcore players was good, but it was only short-term, and complains about not enough content, and/or it being not difficult/rewarding enough, started relatively fast. Casual community reception at the same time was indifferent at best and wildly hostile at worst. Ultimately Anet ended up spending a ton of effort on content that wasn't wanted by a huge majority of players, and was not satisfactory to the remaining minority.

    I only want to point out that your confirmation bias is showing. Every group of people here is complaining about lack of content. Pvp, WvW and all facets of PvE.

    (Pvp less because wejust had a season).

    No realistic amount of content will ever satisfy everyone. In my opinion the problem is morso that gw2 is designed in a way that people should dabble it lots of small things. Not spent time in one.

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