kitten has happened to thief? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

kitten has happened to thief?

Felwal.9618Felwal.9618 Member ✭✭
edited July 24, 2019 in Thief

I came back after a break recently. I quit right after dagger AA got nerfed into the ground. but what has happened to thief? I played some PvP but unless i played a staff build i deal no damage most builds can just laugh it off and then i tried to do some WvW and noticed you cant even stealth for over 3 seconds if your opponent happens to have a sentry somewhat nearby. Why? you cant even benefit from the extra stealth duration in shadow arts(or the new spider venom in stealth). And also i tried to fight a warrior i couldnt deal any real damage to him and he killed me in 3-4 autos and one real skill like hundred blades or his spin plus 1 auto. this is with full marauders armor and amulet rest is berserker (all Acended if that matters). what have they done to thief? feels like the entire class has been absolutely nutured.

Comments

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭

    Sentry now removes Stealth.

    Yu just need to get good vs Warrior.

    And yes they nerfed the class alot.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Felwal.9618Felwal.9618 Member ✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    Sentry now removes Stealth.

    Yu just need to get good vs Warrior.

    And yes they nerfed the class alot.

    Yeah i know i didnt play flawlessly against that warrior but still feels kinda unfair with the amount of effort i need to put in compared to him also RIP any thief build that semi relies on stealth guess the only option is s/d or staff or i'll just quit the game again and hope they get a grip when it comes to balancing thief. Thing is they already had the d/p balance down decently before they nerfed its auto attack maybe the interupts were a bit to strong and easy to pull off but atleast thief was deadly if you didnt do anything while he was whaling at you but now if i play any build with dagger mainhand you're just an anoying fly nowadays

  • foste.3098foste.3098 Member ✭✭✭

    They nerfed auto attack damage across the board on thief weapons. At the moment core s/d is considered meta with other builds ranging from mediocre to good.
    One thing to get used to is that d/p daredevil no longer works since the steal burst of that build has lost allot of range and therefor is allot easier to see coming, basically d/p doesn't work with the trait setup we used to play it with (i mean it is playable just not very good).

    Here is some advice: if you want to role a dead eye then the new shadow arts works well with it, not so much because of stacking long stealth but because of lots of access to it and the fast movement in stealth, so you can pop in and out frequently and reposition all the while always threatening a big burst. Trait for hidden thief and take hide in shadows, smoke bomb and shadow step.
    For daredevil i found most success by traiting for bound and using it with offhand pistol (with daggeer or sword mh, they both work well with one giving you instant burst the other cc and slower burst). Daredevil has an impressive uptime on weakness due to the master minor trait, coupled with lots of dodges and you have a very durable combatant (altho all your defenses are active and you are vulnerable to burst). If you opt to use sword then pairing the daredevil line with acrobatics (instant reflex, swindlers equilibrium, upper hand) and trickery (usual steal traits) works really well, i myself am playing a daredevil in plat 2 pvp rank.

  • Felwal.9618Felwal.9618 Member ✭✭

    @foste.3098 said:
    They nerfed auto attack damage across the board on thief weapons. At the moment core s/d is considered meta with other builds ranging from mediocre to good.
    One thing to get used to is that d/p daredevil no longer works since the steal burst of that build has lost allot of range and therefor is allot easier to see coming, basically d/p doesn't work with the trait setup we used to play it with (i mean it is playable just not very good).

    Here is some advice: if you want to role a dead eye then the new shadow arts works well with it, not so much because of stacking long stealth but because of lots of access to it and the fast movement in stealth, so you can pop in and out frequently and reposition all the while always threatening a big burst. Trait for hidden thief and take hide in shadows, smoke bomb and shadow step.
    For daredevil i found most success by traiting for bound and using it with offhand pistol (with daggeer or sword mh, they both work well with one giving you instant burst the other cc and slower burst). Daredevil has an impressive uptime on weakness due to the master minor trait, coupled with lots of dodges and you have a very durable combatant (altho all your defenses are active and you are vulnerable to burst). If you opt to use sword then pairing the daredevil line with acrobatics (instant reflex, swindlers equilibrium, upper hand) and trickery (usual steal traits) works really well, i myself am playing a daredevil in plat 2 pvp rank.

    Yeah i know d/p is kinda kitten now tho its my favourite weapon set and i dont like deadeye outside of trying some meme one shots once in a while. I find staff to be pretty decent with acro 1/3/1 and trickery, but i find sword 2 ports to be kinda unreliable sometimes but i kinda wanna give it another try what traits are you using in DD and what amulet(i assume marauders) and what runes/sigils?

  • foste.3098foste.3098 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2019

    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAsaVn0MBlOhFOBGmC0PhlriqbAmuAwbDygPYO6z+uH-jpxHQBXrMgyOEAw7EAQwHAAAOCA9Y/BA
    This is my main build with which i reached high plat. It has good synergy between traits and weapon skills, basing its damage on interruption and sustain on evasion; there is a stigma against pistol whip so expect lots of salt.
    The main way to do damage is by landing tactical strike (get stealth by dodging through black powder) and landing a full aa chain, while infiltrator's strike and head shot are used when it's opportune. Pistol whip is best used 'as a dodge', basically instead of dodging an obvious attack you whip it to interrupt it and do heavy damage (pistol whip has an evade frame during the sword flurry part but it is not listed on the tooltip).

    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoaVl0MhSnYhTwvJQ/EL0E2cF8DWC9CDfhygWA4JMbA-jpxHQB9Y/B4dCAI4DAQZHCAAcEAuWZAA
    This is a d/p build i found works well, but i had less success with it than i did with the above build (build editor not up to date, shadow trap is suppose to be prepare shadow portal, deadly trapper is even the odds). Basically play it like burst mesmers used to play: go on to target burst hard and fast then rotate to an unprotected point to decap and drop your portal there, then go to where you can +1 and burst, repeat.
    So the play style is almost the same as the old d/p builds except you are 100% geared for bursts and mobility, which is why i am suggesting withdraw as you need to hit and run alot, and why marauders resilience is taken over other traits in the adept tier as the extra hp and the damage reduction stacked with the reduction from dash and weakening strikes gives you pseudo protection (doesn't mean you can tank hits but it does mean you can stay in a smaller scale fight longer than what ppl will expect from a burst thief).
    The issue with this build is that it relies on allies in order to be able to +1 effectively and to be able to abuse shadow portal. If your allies cannot hold fights then all your mobility is worthless and you might as well go afk.

    Staff doesn't work well at all in pvp as it is slow and predictable. You will role over ppl sometimes but as a whole the weapon is severely lacking, it has no y axis ports, it has issues gap closing if you are kited (6 initiative 600 range leap is not effective at gap closing against someone who is using multiple skills to create distance) and the auto attack is slow af.

    apparently the forums are bugged and you cannot manually click on links idk, just copy and paste the build links in the search bar and it should work.

  • Felwal.9618Felwal.9618 Member ✭✭
    edited July 24, 2019

    @foste.3098 said:
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAsaVn0MBlOhFOBGmC0PhlriqbAmuAwbDygPYO6z+uH-jpxHQBXrMgyOEAw7EAQwHAAAOCA9Y/BA
    This is my main build with which i reached high plat. It has good synergy between traits and weapon skills, basing its damage on interruption and sustain on evasion; there is a stigma against pistol whip so expect lots of salt.
    The main way to do damage is by landing tactical strike (get stealth by dodging through black powder) and landing a full aa chain, while infiltrator's strike and head shot are used when it's opportune. Pistol whip is best used 'as a dodge', basically instead of dodging an obvious attack you whip it to interrupt it and do heavy damage (pistol whip has an evade frame during the sword flurry part but it is not listed on the tooltip).

    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoaVl0MhSnYhTwvJQ/EL0E2cF8DWC9CDfhygWA4JMbA-jpxHQB9Y/B4dCAI4DAQZHCAAcEAuWZAA
    This is a d/p build i found works well, but i had less success with it than i did with the above build (build editor not up to date, shadow trap is suppose to be prepare shadow portal, deadly trapper is even the odds). Basically play it like burst mesmers used to play: go on to target burst hard and fast then rotate to an unprotected point to decap and drop your portal there, then go to where you can +1 and burst, repeat.
    So the play style is almost the same as the old d/p builds except you are 100% geared for bursts and mobility, which is why i am suggesting withdraw as you need to hit and run alot, and why marauders resilience is taken over other traits in the adept tier as the extra hp and the damage reduction stacked with the reduction from dash and weakening strikes gives you pseudo protection (doesn't mean you can tank hits but it does mean you can stay in a smaller scale fight longer than what ppl will expect from a burst thief).
    The issue with this build is that it relies on allies in order to be able to +1 effectively and to be able to abuse shadow portal. If your allies cannot hold fights then all your mobility is worthless and you might as well go afk.

    Staff doesn't work well at all in pvp as it is slow and predictable. You will role over ppl sometimes but as a whole the weapon is severely lacking, it has no y axis ports, it has issues gap closing if you are kited (6 initiative 600 range leap is not effective at gap closing against someone who is using multiple skills to create distance) and the auto attack is slow af.

    apparently the forums are bugged and you cannot manually click on links idk, just copy and paste the build links in the search bar and it should work.

    Well with my staff build i reached high gold pretty easily i dont use vault that often because its so predictable. I could probably go into plat if i grinded out some matches but i think i'll try your build and see how it works, at this point i've given up hope on D/P and i find that shadow portal doesent work half the time especially in combat does regular damage interrupt it or something? its a cool skill tho i used to use shadow trap pre HoT and that worked really nicely. especially since thief could actually duel someone. But i'd like to play some WvW but you basically cant play thief in that mode anymore a Deadeye build well ranger does it a lot better. Stealth is worthless if you are trying to roam and thief has always been bad in zergs and playing staff or S/D in WvW then you might aswell play warrior or some other boring class with invulns for days. feels kinda wasted to have played thief for over 1600 hours and almost 1k PvP matches

  • Felwal.9618Felwal.9618 Member ✭✭

    okay i played a couple of games with that build and i didnt like it was nice with all the interrupts but overall it deals less damage then my staff build does on avreage, it has worse teamfight pressence, less survivability especially against a condi build and worse mobility but it has a better single target focus and ofc all the interrupts gonna try some condi S/D build and see if it works

  • Dave.6819Dave.6819 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 28, 2019

    @Felwal.9618 said:
    I came back after a break recently. I quit right after dagger AA got nerfed into the ground. but what has happened to thief? I played some PvP but unless i played a staff build i deal no damage most builds can just laugh it off and then i tried to do some WvW and noticed you cant even stealth for over 3 seconds if your opponent happens to have a sentry somewhat nearby. Why? you cant even benefit from the extra stealth duration in shadow arts(or the new spider venom in stealth). And also i tried to fight a warrior i couldnt deal any real damage to him and he killed me in 3-4 autos and one real skill like hundred blades or his spin plus 1 auto. this is with full marauders armor and amulet rest is berserker (all Acended if that matters). what have they done to thief? feels like the entire class has been absolutely nutured.

    yea... same thing happened to me. i came back to gw2 pretty sure thief will be stronger then the last time i played (cuz back then it was already being neutered). to my surprise... it's even worse. i decided to re-roll to mesmer. but then this last balance patch came out and... yea... gotta put chrono on the shelf too. idk who is making these decisions in their office but... my only suggestion is.. play S/D meta and come to terms with that low dmg/high risk/high effort playstyle or don't PvP/WvW at all. go PvE. if u rly want WvW roam... roll somethin different. like soulbeast or somethin. for PvP just roll condi mirage and be cancer (not that mirage is very OP but still pretty decent compared to Thief). u aren't missing on much tho.. not many ppl roam these days. every1 is sitting on their mounts and they don't even engage.

    Thief: But i'm teef. We were supposed to be strong and cool and quick and deadly u know?
    Anet: Hold my beer. Imma steal your glory and bury u for good now.
    Thief: Wut the....?!

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 28, 2019

    Part of the problem is, "Marauder and Berserker gear". Its not a power meta anymore and hasn't been for a long time in PvP/WvW, you need condi, because people stack defenses and you can't bypass them with power-based damage.

    As for the warrior, you lost to him because he was hitting you. he was melee so why was he hitting you? Bring up your utility skills and change them to immobilizes and blinds, especially take "Blinding powder", which is now a pulsing area. And try not to fight melee in glass against a class that has far more health and armor than you do because they can be more effective at it since their entire class design is "hit stuff".

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  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Balance happened to thief!

    For a while it was very frustrating to play the game in PvP and especially WvW. They were thief ganking squads behind every corner : uncatchable - unpunishable ( shortbow 5 - infiltrator return - and ofc stealth ) - doing stupid amounts of dmg with AA only leaving thief free to spam skills like pre-nerf Pulmonary Impact triggering with headshot which has no cast time and just 4 ini - we had also pre loaded vault/steal combo hitting for 15k+ dmg out of nowhere - then we had (still have ) pistol whip ect ect ect...

    Ofc I don't expect thieves to ever agree with my statements but luckily Anet did agree and made the game less frustrating to play, yes ofc a class that allows you to easily grief others , mock them and more...will be a MMO player wet dream and many people quitted the game back in the day especially during DE era , I mean a class that forces others to quit soon or later will be brought down with hardcore nerfs

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    Balance happened to thief!

    For a while it was very frustrating to play the game in PvP and especially WvW. They were thief ganking squads behind every corner : uncatchable - unpunishable ( shortbow 5 - infiltrator return - and ofc stealth ) - doing stupid amounts of dmg with AA only leaving thief free to spam skills like pre-nerf Pulmonary Impact triggering with headshot which has no cast time and just 4 ini - we had also pre loaded vault/steal combo hitting for 15k+ dmg out of nowhere - then we had (still have ) pistol whip ect ect ect...

    Ofc I don't expect thieves to ever agree with my statements but luckily Anet did agree and made the game less frustrating to play, yes ofc a class that allows you to easily grief others , mock them and more...will be a MMO player wet dream and many people quitted the game back in the day especially during DE era , I mean a class that forces others to quit soon or later will be brought down with hardcore nerfs

    There are two sides to balance. Thief was one side. The other has been allowed to run more rampant than Thief ever did. Even placed in a vacuum, thief isn't balanced against itself. Anet didn't really adjust other things in any meaningful way - the nerfs have left it extremely lopsided as a class.

    No wonder you don't expect thieves to ever agree with you.

    @OP - if you want to main thief in this game and be in any way competitive, you'll have to make some pretty hard sacrifices, sanity wise. GW2 is no longer...well, it never was (maybe for one brief, shining moment years ago?) - an anywhere near decent game for half-decent pvp.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    Balance happened to thief!

    many people quitted the game back in the day especially during DE era , I mean a class that forces others to quit soon or later will be brought down with hardcore nerfs

    And you say that based on what? Your imagination or 3 people from your guild that quit the game? Seems like a random player's opinon that you try to set up as a fact.
    Also it's ironic that something like that is said by the same person that complains about SB nerf -too bad even other rangers disagreed with you, right? :D

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    Balance happened to thief!

    For a while it was very frustrating to play the game in PvP and especially WvW. They were thief ganking squads behind every corner : uncatchable - unpunishable ( shortbow 5 - infiltrator return - and ofc stealth ) - doing stupid amounts of dmg with AA only leaving thief free to spam skills like pre-nerf Pulmonary Impact triggering with headshot which has no cast time and just 4 ini - we had also pre loaded vault/steal combo hitting for 15k+ dmg out of nowhere - then we had (still have ) pistol whip ect ect ect...

    Ofc I don't expect thieves to ever agree with my statements but luckily Anet did agree and made the game less frustrating to play, yes ofc a class that allows you to easily grief others , mock them and more...will be a MMO player wet dream and many people quitted the game back in the day especially during DE era , I mean a class that forces others to quit soon or later will be brought down with hardcore nerfs

    There are two sides to balance. Thief was one side. The other has been allowed to run more rampant than Thief ever did. Even placed in a vacuum, thief isn't balanced against itself. Anet didn't really adjust other things in any meaningful way - the nerfs have left it extremely lopsided as a class.

    No wonder you don't expect thieves to ever agree with you.

    @OP - if you want to main thief in this game and be in any way competitive, you'll have to make some pretty hard sacrifices, sanity wise. GW2 is no longer...well, it never was (maybe for one brief, shining moment years ago?) - an anywhere near decent game for half-decent pvp.

    As I have said already, a class like GW2 thief is every average MMO player's wet dream and even more before the deserving balance phase : "an unpunishable class with stupid amount of dmg, mobility and disengage potential" , the unpunishable part has been left almost intact while the dmg component has been deservingly adjusted so that thief players will feel the sting once they become too greedy.

    The combination of infiltrator's return - no cast time attacks including daze/stuns -stealth on demand and shortbow 1200 retreat and other stuff I may forget atm , makes thief an headache to fight...and it was previously a nightmare to fight thieves because of the stupid AA dmg.

    Every other class can be caught and punished in 90% of cases...a thief can simply disappear if things go south and this coupled with damage made an ideal combination for roamers in WvW up to 1 year ago.

    -Fightning d/p with pre-nerf Pulmonary impact and AA ...was truly a nightmare, the thief could simply walk up to you and just spamm AA coupled with headshot everytime you'd move a muscle and ofc thief players consider that kind of gameplay balanced and everybody else needs to l2p..luckily Anet thought otherwise

    -Then we have s/d thief : infiltrator combo followed by unblockable flanking combo..rinse and repeat till tha target dies...again thieves think this gameplay is balanced and everybody else needs to L2P ofc

    -The pre cast stealth/vault combo dealing 15k+ dmg out of the blue from stealth...yes yes..L2P and dodge again, very luckily Anet removed the ability to pre cast vault and steal teleport.

    Thief is supposed to be a slippery support/finisher character....not the ultimate brawler class and it was till some time ago, luckily that got adjusted and I hope it never returns

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • LucianTheAngelic.7054LucianTheAngelic.7054 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 29, 2019

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    Part of the problem is, "Marauder and Berserker gear". Its not a power meta anymore and hasn't been for a long time in PvP/WvW, you need condi, because people stack defenses and you can't bypass them with power-based damage.

    This is just flat out wrong. The vast majority of builds utilize power based stats outside of some Scourge, Mirage, and MAYBE the occasional weaver. There hasn't been a condi meta, especially in PvP, for quite some time due to the massive amount of cleanse support specs can spit out and the fact that pretty much all condi builds outside of the above mentioned are trash tier or "meh" at best

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    Balance happened to thief!

    For a while it was very frustrating to play the game in PvP and especially WvW. They were thief ganking squads behind every corner : uncatchable - unpunishable ( shortbow 5 - infiltrator return - and ofc stealth ) - doing stupid amounts of dmg with AA only leaving thief free to spam skills like pre-nerf Pulmonary Impact triggering with headshot which has no cast time and just 4 ini - we had also pre loaded vault/steal combo hitting for 15k+ dmg out of nowhere - then we had (still have ) pistol whip ect ect ect...

    Ofc I don't expect thieves to ever agree with my statements but luckily Anet did agree and made the game less frustrating to play, yes ofc a class that allows you to easily grief others , mock them and more...will be a MMO player wet dream and many people quitted the game back in the day especially during DE era , I mean a class that forces others to quit soon or later will be brought down with hardcore nerfs

    There are two sides to balance. Thief was one side. The other has been allowed to run more rampant than Thief ever did. Even placed in a vacuum, thief isn't balanced against itself. Anet didn't really adjust other things in any meaningful way - the nerfs have left it extremely lopsided as a class.

    No wonder you don't expect thieves to ever agree with you.

    @OP - if you want to main thief in this game and be in any way competitive, you'll have to make some pretty hard sacrifices, sanity wise. GW2 is no longer...well, it never was (maybe for one brief, shining moment years ago?) - an anywhere near decent game for half-decent pvp.

    As I have said already, a class like GW2 thief is every average MMO player's wet dream and even more before the deserving balance phase : "an unpunishable class with stupid amount of dmg, mobility and disengage potential" , the unpunishable part has been left almost intact while the dmg component has been deservingly adjusted so that thief players will feel the sting once they become too greedy.

    The combination of infiltrator's return - no cast time attacks including daze/stuns -stealth on demand and shortbow 1200 retreat and other stuff I may forget atm , makes thief an headache to fight...and it was previously a nightmare to fight thieves because of the stupid AA dmg.

    Every other class can be caught and punished in 90% of cases...a thief can simply disappear if things go south and this coupled with damage made an ideal combination for roamers in WvW up to 1 year ago.

    -Fightning d/p with pre-nerf Pulmonary impact and AA ...was truly a nightmare, the thief could simply walk up to you and just spamm AA coupled with headshot everytime you'd move a muscle and ofc thief players consider that kind of gameplay balanced and everybody else needs to l2p..luckily Anet thought otherwise

    -Then we have s/d thief : infiltrator combo followed by unblockable flanking combo..rinse and repeat till tha target dies...again thieves think this gameplay is balanced and everybody else needs to L2P ofc

    -The pre cast stealth/vault combo dealing 15k+ dmg out of the blue from stealth...yes yes..L2P and dodge again, very luckily Anet removed the ability to pre cast vault and steal teleport.

    Thief is supposed to be a slippery support/finisher character....not the ultimate brawler class and it was till some time ago, luckily that got adjusted and I hope it never returns

    I find this funny considering u have ur own thread called looking at thieves and nerf scope being only to nerf it out of viability lmao. what happened? Did a thief kill u a few times and now ur doing exactly what u said the community does and say a class is OP cuz a few hurt ur ego? Almost ur whole post is a exaggeration and or flat out wrong. I play multiple classes and even weaver can down peeps faster than thief for me these days to join the list of reaper,ranger,holo and rev. I dont play warrior but I'm sure I'd be on the list to if I played it for a while. Thief can gank noobs all night long or a good player once, good luck sec time once they kno ur around. In conquest the can rotate and carry games through their mobility but its definitely little to do with their ability to fight which is less than all other classes hence the +1 role tacked onto decapping. Sure a thief will win a 1v1 if they badly outplay their opponent but that's hardly OP lol.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    Balance happened to thief!

    For a while it was very frustrating to play the game in PvP and especially WvW. They were thief ganking squads behind every corner : uncatchable - unpunishable ( shortbow 5 - infiltrator return - and ofc stealth ) - doing stupid amounts of dmg with AA only leaving thief free to spam skills like pre-nerf Pulmonary Impact triggering with headshot which has no cast time and just 4 ini - we had also pre loaded vault/steal combo hitting for 15k+ dmg out of nowhere - then we had (still have ) pistol whip ect ect ect...

    Ofc I don't expect thieves to ever agree with my statements but luckily Anet did agree and made the game less frustrating to play, yes ofc a class that allows you to easily grief others , mock them and more...will be a MMO player wet dream and many people quitted the game back in the day especially during DE era , I mean a class that forces others to quit soon or later will be brought down with hardcore nerfs

    There are two sides to balance. Thief was one side. The other has been allowed to run more rampant than Thief ever did. Even placed in a vacuum, thief isn't balanced against itself. Anet didn't really adjust other things in any meaningful way - the nerfs have left it extremely lopsided as a class.

    No wonder you don't expect thieves to ever agree with you.

    @OP - if you want to main thief in this game and be in any way competitive, you'll have to make some pretty hard sacrifices, sanity wise. GW2 is no longer...well, it never was (maybe for one brief, shining moment years ago?) - an anywhere near decent game for half-decent pvp.

    As I have said already, a class like GW2 thief is every average MMO player's wet dream and even more before the deserving balance phase : "an unpunishable class with stupid amount of dmg, mobility and disengage potential" , the unpunishable part has been left almost intact while the dmg component has been deservingly adjusted so that thief players will feel the sting once they become too greedy.

    The combination of infiltrator's return - no cast time attacks including daze/stuns -stealth on demand and shortbow 1200 retreat and other stuff I may forget atm , makes thief an headache to fight...and it was previously a nightmare to fight thieves because of the stupid AA dmg.

    Every other class can be caught and punished in 90% of cases...a thief can simply disappear if things go south and this coupled with damage made an ideal combination for roamers in WvW up to 1 year ago.

    -Fightning d/p with pre-nerf Pulmonary impact and AA ...was truly a nightmare, the thief could simply walk up to you and just spamm AA coupled with headshot everytime you'd move a muscle and ofc thief players consider that kind of gameplay balanced and everybody else needs to l2p..luckily Anet thought otherwise

    -Then we have s/d thief : infiltrator combo followed by unblockable flanking combo..rinse and repeat till tha target dies...again thieves think this gameplay is balanced and everybody else needs to L2P ofc

    -The pre cast stealth/vault combo dealing 15k+ dmg out of the blue from stealth...yes yes..L2P and dodge again, very luckily Anet removed the ability to pre cast vault and steal teleport.

    Thief is supposed to be a slippery support/finisher character....not the ultimate brawler class and it was till some time ago, luckily that got adjusted and I hope it never returns

    I find this funny considering u have ur own thread called looking at thieves and nerf scope being only to nerf it out of viability lmao. what happened? Did a thief kill u a few times and now ur doing exactly what u said the community does and say a class is OP cuz a few hurt ur ego? Almost ur whole post is a exaggeration and or flat out wrong. I play multiple classes and even weaver can down peeps faster than thief for me these days to join the list of reaper,ranger,holo and rev. I dont play warrior but I'm sure I'd be on the list to if I played it for a while. Thief can gank noobs all night long or a good player once, good luck sec time once they kno ur around. In conquest the can rotate and carry games through their mobility but its definitely little to do with their ability to fight which is less than all other classes hence the +1 role tacked onto decapping. Sure a thief will win a 1v1 if they badly outplay their opponent but that's hardly OP lol.

    Mostly I was talking about pre-nerf builds which were too oppressive , easy and forgiving to play and Anet thought likewise after analyzing data numbers , it doesn't matter how pro thieves think to be...OP builds will always be complained about and subsequently nerfed.

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    To be honest, a lot of stuff was, and arguably still is, over performing. That's true of all classes tho, and stuff will get nerfed as they bring stuff more in line. It's an iterative process.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Felwal.9618 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    Sentry now removes Stealth.

    Yu just need to get good vs Warrior.

    And yes they nerfed the class alot.

    Yeah i know i didnt play flawlessly against that warrior but still feels kinda unfair with the amount of effort i need to put in compared to him also RIP any thief build that semi relies on stealth guess the only option is s/d or staff or i'll just quit the game again and hope they get a grip when it comes to balancing thief. Thing is they already had the d/p balance down decently before they nerfed its auto attack maybe the interupts were a bit to strong and easy to pull off but atleast thief was deadly if you didnt do anything while he was whaling at you but now if i play any build with dagger mainhand you're just an anoying fly nowadays

    Play sword/dagger core thief. Eez to kite warrior

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 30, 2019

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    As I have said already, a class like GW2 thief is every average MMO player's wet dream and even more before the deserving balance phase : "an unpunishable class with stupid amount of dmg, mobility and disengage potential" , the unpunishable part has been left almost intact while the dmg component has been deservingly adjusted so that thief players will feel the sting once they become too greedy.

    LOL what year are you playing this game in, 2015? If I were to extrapolate from your last string of posts, there's a good chance that you fall into this category of thought:

    "Nerf Rock, Paper is OK though" - Scissors

    Why? Because aside from gimmick one shot builds that only affect other glass targets, Thief has had lower burst damage than most for quite a few years. S/F Ele, Holo, Mirage, Herald, DH, and even power Reaper have higher burst damage than Thieves. They also have higher sustained damage than Thieves and far better staying power in fights. Their defenses are also easier as they can continue pressure at the same time.

    Just because you couldn't defeat Thieves on your own doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. Because it does, all the time. Otherwise Thieves would be the most represented roaming class, which granted they were...4 years ago. I suggest you put some vitality and toughness into your build, also try playing Thief for a little while. It's clear that you never have as you seem to think that they have unlimited initiative and don't have any cooldowns on their utilities.

    OP builds will always be complained about and subsequently nerfed.

    Is this why condi Mirage is so weak? Oh...oh wait...hmmm.

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • Thieves are still decent at killing "trash tier" afk single players & chain backstabbing PvE bosses while semi AFK, but you definately want to avoid any real fight/resistance these days. The class kinda degenerated like crazy after the power nerfs, u either have to be super squishy, or run around doing no dps trying to look cool.

    _/_ [SSSh] Secret Society Service _/_
    BG Since Season 1

  • @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    Balance happened to thief!

    For a while it was very frustrating to play the game in PvP and especially WvW. They were thief ganking squads behind every corner : uncatchable - unpunishable ( shortbow 5 - infiltrator return - and ofc stealth ) - doing stupid amounts of dmg with AA only leaving thief free to spam skills like pre-nerf Pulmonary Impact triggering with headshot which has no cast time and just 4 ini - we had also pre loaded vault/steal combo hitting for 15k+ dmg out of nowhere - then we had (still have ) pistol whip ect ect ect...

    Ofc I don't expect thieves to ever agree with my statements but luckily Anet did agree and made the game less frustrating to play, yes ofc a class that allows you to easily grief others , mock them and more...will be a MMO player wet dream and many people quitted the game back in the day especially during DE era , I mean a class that forces others to quit soon or later will be brought down with hardcore nerfs

    There are two sides to balance. Thief was one side. The other has been allowed to run more rampant than Thief ever did. Even placed in a vacuum, thief isn't balanced against itself. Anet didn't really adjust other things in any meaningful way - the nerfs have left it extremely lopsided as a class.

    No wonder you don't expect thieves to ever agree with you.

    @OP - if you want to main thief in this game and be in any way competitive, you'll have to make some pretty hard sacrifices, sanity wise. GW2 is no longer...well, it never was (maybe for one brief, shining moment years ago?) - an anywhere near decent game for half-decent pvp.

    As I have said already, a class like GW2 thief is every average MMO player's wet dream and even more before the deserving balance phase : "an unpunishable class with stupid amount of dmg, mobility and disengage potential" , the unpunishable part has been left almost intact while the dmg component has been deservingly adjusted so that thief players will feel the sting once they become too greedy.

    The combination of infiltrator's return - no cast time attacks including daze/stuns -stealth on demand and shortbow 1200 retreat and other stuff I may forget atm , makes thief an headache to fight...and it was previously a nightmare to fight thieves because of the stupid AA dmg.

    Every other class can be caught and punished in 90% of cases...a thief can simply disappear if things go south and this coupled with damage made an ideal combination for roamers in WvW up to 1 year ago.

    -Fightning d/p with pre-nerf Pulmonary impact and AA ...was truly a nightmare, the thief could simply walk up to you and just spamm AA coupled with headshot everytime you'd move a muscle and ofc thief players consider that kind of gameplay balanced and everybody else needs to l2p..luckily Anet thought otherwise

    -Then we have s/d thief : infiltrator combo followed by unblockable flanking combo..rinse and repeat till tha target dies...again thieves think this gameplay is balanced and everybody else needs to L2P ofc

    -The pre cast stealth/vault combo dealing 15k+ dmg out of the blue from stealth...yes yes..L2P and dodge again, very luckily Anet removed the ability to pre cast vault and steal teleport.

    Thief is supposed to be a slippery support/finisher character....not the ultimate brawler class and it was till some time ago, luckily that got adjusted and I hope it never returns

    I find this funny considering u have ur own thread called looking at thieves and nerf scope being only to nerf it out of viability lmao. what happened? Did a thief kill u a few times and now ur doing exactly what u said the community does and say a class is OP cuz a few hurt ur ego? Almost ur whole post is a exaggeration and or flat out wrong. I play multiple classes and even weaver can down peeps faster than thief for me these days to join the list of reaper,ranger,holo and rev. I dont play warrior but I'm sure I'd be on the list to if I played it for a while. Thief can gank noobs all night long or a good player once, good luck sec time once they kno ur around. In conquest the can rotate and carry games through their mobility but its definitely little to do with their ability to fight which is less than all other classes hence the +1 role tacked onto decapping. Sure a thief will win a 1v1 if they badly outplay their opponent but that's hardly OP lol.

    Mostly I was talking about pre-nerf builds which were too oppressive , easy and forgiving to play and Anet thought likewise after analyzing data numbers , it doesn't matter how pro thieves think to be...OP builds will always be complained about and subsequently nerfed.

    I'll agree with you that certain needed a nerf post HoT. . . what we thief mains are saying is that they went too far. We take great risks to hit a target, being glassy by design, and it feels pretty bad when we take that risk and are rewarded with a tickle of damage.

    That being said. . .thief is feeling better and better lately. Certainly better than around the patch that made Scrapper unkillable (surprise bunker meta anyone?)
    Think anet is moving in the right direction balance wise atm.

  • TwiceDead.1963TwiceDead.1963 Member ✭✭✭

    I think the reason you don't see thieves dropping left and right is because they all learned early when to run away, which is usually early in the engage.
    Arguably the only thing they excel at compared to other classes, really. Their ability to reset (run away), and even that aspect is slowly being encroached by the other classes.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭

    @Felwal.9618 said:
    I came back after a break recently. I quit right after dagger AA got nerfed into the ground. but what has happened to thief? I played some PvP but unless i played a staff build i deal no damage most builds can just laugh it off and then i tried to do some WvW and noticed you cant even stealth for over 3 seconds if your opponent happens to have a sentry somewhat nearby. Why? you cant even benefit from the extra stealth duration in shadow arts(or the new spider venom in stealth). And also i tried to fight a warrior i couldnt deal any real damage to him and he killed me in 3-4 autos and one real skill like hundred blades or his spin plus 1 auto. this is with full marauders armor and amulet rest is berserker (all Acended if that matters). what have they done to thief? feels like the entire class has been absolutely nutured.

    Nerfs are good, it's just the other offenders that need nerfs still are yet to be touched. Once those get the proper nerfs, I think thieves will be more valuable in team play as utility type assassins again. At the moment, the meta favors insane amounts of damage (rev, holo, scourge, warrior, etc) so Thieves kind got the short end of the stick. But with rev nerfed, holo only slightly nerfed (it still needs more, 5k auto chains is insane), and a couple other things nerfed, Thieves will start to see slightly more play. Lets hope they deliver the proper nerfs soon, so we can start to see more diverse team comps and strategies come back into the game.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Kageseigi.2150Kageseigi.2150 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 4, 2019

    @TwiceDead.1963 said:
    I think the reason you don't see thieves dropping left and right is because they all learned early when to run away, which is usually early in the engage.

    This was ingrained into Thief players especially before the existence of the Marauder amulet in PvP.

    A Berserker/Assassin Thief is nearly twitch-based gameplay, and offers little to no forgiveness for mistakes or missed timing. I just wish the reward was worth the risk. Outside of playing it to improve your Thieving skills, it offers little benefit to justify the vulnerability. And that is extremely unfortunate.

  • Felwal.9618Felwal.9618 Member ✭✭

    i have been maining thief for such a long time it was the first class i played when i got the game and i've been playing on and off for a long time but i feel like the class has just gotten more boring. Thief has always required some skill to play effectively (atleast in PvP) since its a squishy class by default but it felt really nice when you actually got rewarded for outplaying your opponent by blinding key skills and landing bursts and backstabs on people at crucial times but its just gotten boring since you dont really get that reward in the form of damage anymore other classes have just gotten tankier over time ever since the june 2015 balance patch that replaced traits with specializations before that there was a lot more build diversity and more options. Then they released HoT and that made almost every single class a lot stronger and their defences became better after that thief felt really weak atleast D/P you could still use something like staff but it was still a weak class just like warrior was back then. But then later on they buffed thief and increased AA damage on dagger that actually made thief feel a lot better when you actually did a lot of damage if people just let you hit them over. Thief was still very squishy and back then had no invulns exept dodges wich thief got in spades maybe to much especially if you were using dash so they nerfed it and added exaustion to it and thats fair enough its kinda OP to get out of every single movement impairing condi just with a dodge but it was ether before this or after this PoF launched and then they just increased condi damage overall and gave some specs ridiculus amounts of survuvability so thief started feeling a bit weaker but it was still fun to play exept when you got 1 shot by a condi bomb from a scourge. A bit after that i took a pretty long break on and off but more often off and now thief basically has no damage its back to where it was just after HoT dropped. Against any competent player you can only run and try to decap. overall thiefs low base health and pretty crappy damage makes it really boring to play combined with the game moving more and more towards condi and tankier builds and all these passive invulns and kitten like that just slows the game down. (and thief has no good condi build) Sadly i've tried every class and most of them just feel boring compared to thief but all of them feel a lot stronger so im probably just gonna leave the game again and keep an eye out to see if they make some good changes.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2019

    Eso has it's own issues but atleast the high mobility/squishy class (nightblade) is top of the list as far as burst dps goes unlike gw2 balance team that makes the higher hp/sustain classes not only have good to great mobility, higher bursts but throw in more hard cc to sweeten the deal to the point where u went from just crys cuz people got out played as will always happen to constant cries cuz thieves started to resort to cheese builds and playstyles to compensate for hitting like garbage in most instances. Good job anet, way to cave and wreck a class :)

  • Kageseigi.2150Kageseigi.2150 Member ✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Eso has it's own issues but atleast the high mobility/squishy class (nightblade) is top of the list as far as burst dps goes unlike gw2 balance team that makes the higher hp/sustain classes not only have good to great mobility, higher bursts but throw in more hard cc to sweeten the deal to the point where u went from just crys cuz people got out played as will always happen to constant cries cuz thieves started to resort to cheese builds and playstyles to compensate for bitten like garbage fin most instances. Good job anet, way to cave and wreck a class :)

    My question is... if Thieves lost Stealth, could we please get our relative damage advantage back? It seems that people complain mostly about getting insta-downed from an invisible foe. I'm sure they wouldn't like to get insta-downed from a visible Thief either, but at least it would be more "balanced"???

    If we don't lose Stealth, then make Stealth Attacks (Backstab/Death's Judgement) focus more on debilitating the target instead of outright damaging it. Then make the normal (visible) attacks more lethal.

    Then again, people will complain about anything that kills them. And even the Thief community is a ragtag, divisive bunch that has little unity, unfortunately.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I’ve noticed that thief damage isn’t low. It’s that opponents have a lot of mitigation. Once you get past that mitigation thief does kill opponents well enough.

    What most thieves need is it’s own sustain to stay in the fight. (Smoke Screen is a step in that direction).

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:
    I’ve noticed that thief damage isn’t low. It’s that opponents have a lot of mitigation. Once you get past that mitigation thief does kill opponents well enough.

    What most thieves need is it’s own sustain to stay in the fight. (Smoke Screen is a step in that direction).

    This is very true with some weapons. Staff dps is fine but most of its attacks are too predictable and slow. Sword only needs a slight dps boost. Sb doesnt need damage as it's fine as a utility weapon. Daggers need a dps buff bad on all its attacks and pistols offer good control and dont really need any buffs. Just my opinion.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2019

    @saerni.2584 said:
    I’ve noticed that thief damage isn’t low. It’s that opponents have a lot of mitigation. Once you get past that mitigation thief does kill opponents well enough.

    What most thieves need is it’s own sustain to stay in the fight. (Smoke Screen is a step in that direction).

    That's the main reason I pack Rending Shade with other boon steal and quickness into my opener with premeditation. It kind of sucks to have to put soo much into such a quick window since some of those modifiers go on cooldowns but I guess those cd's cycle enough.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]

  • Kageseigi.2150Kageseigi.2150 Member ✭✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:
    I’ve noticed that thief damage isn’t low. It’s that opponents have a lot of mitigation. Once you get past that mitigation thief does kill opponents well enough.

    What most thieves need is it’s own sustain to stay in the fight. (Smoke Screen is a step in that direction).

    In that case, I would lobby for a trait in Critical Strikes that specifically ignores and/or significantly reduces opponents' damage mitigation.

    Let those Thieves who so choose to play as a Glass Cannon Assassin have a decent shot being successful without having to out-sustain the enemy. Again, even if they have to tone down damage from Stealth in order to balance out the advantage, at least let visible Thieves have a more equal footing.

    I'm not necessarily speaking of allowing one-shot/burst builds, but builds that could force and compete in very short duels (short enough to make reinforcements a non-factor) if the Thief gets a successful opening burst.

    Personally, I'm interested in PvP capability specifically, and the Thief's main enemy there is time. Even if you successfully outplay and outsustain an opponent, it takes way too much time to make it worth doing so.

    I do find it rather ironic, though. The Thief is all about a fast-paced play-style. The one thing it can't do fast is win a fight... though it can certainly lose one quickly.

    I like having the choice of more sustainability, of course, though I'd like the choice to accelerate things also.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kageseigi.2150 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    I’ve noticed that thief damage isn’t low. It’s that opponents have a lot of mitigation. Once you get past that mitigation thief does kill opponents well enough.

    What most thieves need is it’s own sustain to stay in the fight. (Smoke Screen is a step in that direction).

    In that case, I would lobby for a trait in Critical Strikes that specifically ignores and/or significantly reduces opponents' damage mitigation.

    Let those Thieves who so choose to play as a Glass Cannon Assassin have a decent shot being successful without having to out-sustain the enemy. Again, even if they have to tone down damage from Stealth in order to balance out the advantage, at least let visible Thieves have a more equal footing.

    I'm not necessarily speaking of allowing one-shot/burst builds, but builds that could force and compete in very short duels (short enough to make reinforcements a non-factor) if the Thief gets a successful opening burst.

    Personally, I'm interested in PvP capability specifically, and the Thief's main enemy there is time. Even if you successfully outplay and outsustain an opponent, it takes way too much time to make it worth doing so.

    I do find it rather ironic, though. The Thief is all about a fast-paced play-style. The one thing it can't do fast is win a fight... though it can certainly lose one quickly.

    I like having the choice of more sustainability, of course, though I'd like the choice to accelerate things also.

    You'd have to move around and replace some things, I'm not a stealth player but I launch allot of stuff from stealth.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2019

    I noticed that the meta build for daredevil d/p uses eagle runes instead of scholar, how comes?

  • Alatar.7364Alatar.7364 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2019

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:
    I noticed that the meta build for daredevil d/p uses eagle runes instead of scholar, how comes?

    It doesn't matter all too much, either you gonna have the +10% dmg because you should he bursting/+1ing low hp targets anyway or you gonna have the +5% because you should not be bursting/+1ing without enough hp anyway.
    The +10% is bit more likely to be more consistent but you lose the bonus power from Scholar, however the +10% equals more dmg than with the scholar bonus power.

    ~ I Aear cân ven na mar

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Fair enough, will try them in wvw tonight.

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