Can you please retest reaper changes. — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Can you please retest reaper changes.

Tiviana.2650Tiviana.2650 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited July 25, 2019 in Necromancer

The soul eater change was a bit much, it makes them super squishy now. Reaper isnt meta and yet you made it even worse than before. There are some good thoughts and suggestion here in this forum thread, i really think you should reevaluate the reaper changes. Test them better, use a chisel instead of a chainsaw. Do you devs play this game? Not to be factitious, but did you actually play this change on live and see how bad it is? I think you should pay attention to whats being said in the necromancer forum.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/82184/reaper-soul-eater-healing#latest

Comments

  • Tiviana.2650Tiviana.2650 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yeah i agree you have condi mirage builds out there doing more damage and better sustain, why is reaper getting kittened on?

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Based on the scale of the complaints I wonder how people played before this trait got changed because they make it sounds like it was impossible...only it wasn't..
    Seen people saying this change destroyed the class but, again, how did they play it before this change?

    Arguably when you compare the trait, even now, to the version of the trait beforehand it is a MUCH stronger trait.

  • FrigginPaco.4178FrigginPaco.4178 Member ✭✭✭

    It was almost the only significant sustain available and now I feel like there's no alternative but to play even more aggressively if that's even possible. Somehow, I managed to get to plat on reaper which is silly to me, but I'm pretty sure I'm a wet paper bag waving a pointy stick around now.

    Potential requires action in order to be realized.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    Based on the scale of the complaints I wonder how people played before this trait got changed because they make it sounds like it was impossible...only it wasn't..
    Seen people saying this change destroyed the class but, again, how did they play it before this change?

    Arguably when you compare the trait, even now, to the version of the trait beforehand it is a MUCH stronger trait.

    The issue is not that people couldn't use it before, the issue is it got taken away with a bad excuse.

    This still doesnt stop the trait from a) being over buffed, i mean if they didnt think they made it too strong they wouldnt have nerfed it, and b) STILL being stronger than its old version after the nerf. Also reason people don't like =/= excuse.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    Based on the scale of the complaints I wonder how people played before this trait got changed because they make it sounds like it was impossible...only it wasn't..
    Seen people saying this change destroyed the class but, again, how did they play it before this change?

    Arguably when you compare the trait, even now, to the version of the trait beforehand it is a MUCH stronger trait.

    The issue is not that people couldn't use it before, the issue is it got taken away with a bad excuse.

    This still doesnt stop the trait from a) being over buffed, i mean if they didnt think they made it too strong they wouldnt have nerfed it, and b) STILL being stronger than its old version after the nerf. Also reason people don't like =/= excuse.

    I disagree with the assumption they wouldn’t nerf it unless it was overbuffed, as some changes over the past few years have made no sense regarding nerfs, such as focus 4 nerf, or warhorn nerfs as most recent for necro.

    They literally said they over buffed it so they are nerfing it? and they nerfed the part of the trait they deemd was over performing. You're still avoiding admitting its still a stronger trait that it was before.

    And I disagree with the complaints being how they removed it. People are acting like they can no longer play the class/ its been destroyed. What did they do 3 months ago?

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2019

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    Based on the scale of the complaints I wonder how people played before this trait got changed because they make it sounds like it was impossible...only it wasn't..
    Seen people saying this change destroyed the class but, again, how did they play it before this change?

    Arguably when you compare the trait, even now, to the version of the trait beforehand it is a MUCH stronger trait.

    The issue is not that people couldn't use it before, the issue is it got taken away with a bad excuse.

    This still doesnt stop the trait from a) being over buffed, i mean if they didnt think they made it too strong they wouldnt have nerfed it, and b) STILL being stronger than its old version after the nerf. Also reason people don't like =/= excuse.

    I disagree with the assumption they wouldn’t nerf it unless it was overbuffed, as some changes over the past few years have made no sense regarding nerfs, such as focus 4 nerf, or warhorn nerfs as most recent for necro.

    They literally said they over buffed it so they are nerfing it? and they nerfed the part of the trait they deemd was over performing. You're still avoiding admitting its still a stronger trait that it was before.

    And I disagree with the complaints being how they removed it. People are acting like they can no longer play the class/ its been destroyed. What did they do 3 months ago?

    I just provided evidence why it is currently weaker than before, aswell ad evidence that they do not nerf things because it’s too strong. What more do you want?

    Let's start over ... it's not relevant if it's weaker or not than it was before.

    What is relevant here is that healing in shroud to the extent we were seeing isn't part of the theme of the class, nor was it reasonable just from a performance perspective. Now you may begin.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2019

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    Based on the scale of the complaints I wonder how people played before this trait got changed because they make it sounds like it was impossible...only it wasn't..
    Seen people saying this change destroyed the class but, again, how did they play it before this change?

    Arguably when you compare the trait, even now, to the version of the trait beforehand it is a MUCH stronger trait.

    The issue is not that people couldn't use it before, the issue is it got taken away with a bad excuse.

    This still doesnt stop the trait from a) being over buffed, i mean if they didnt think they made it too strong they wouldnt have nerfed it, and b) STILL being stronger than its old version after the nerf. Also reason people don't like =/= excuse.

    I disagree with the assumption they wouldn’t nerf it unless it was overbuffed, as some changes over the past few years have made no sense regarding nerfs, such as focus 4 nerf, or warhorn nerfs as most recent for necro.

    They literally said they over buffed it so they are nerfing it? and they nerfed the part of the trait they deemd was over performing. You're still avoiding admitting its still a stronger trait that it was before.

    And I disagree with the complaints being how they removed it. People are acting like they can no longer play the class/ its been destroyed. What did they do 3 months ago?

    I just provided evidence why it is currently weaker than before, aswell ad evidence that they do not nerf things because it’s too strong. What more do you want?

    You edited your post whilst i was replying.. No they don't but when they explicitly state it was too strong and they are reducing it because of that why do you think they are nerfing it? And I said its overall a better trait not it doesn't have any parts that are weaker than before. It now is an option alongside DD instead of both being the 9/10 choice like it was the past patch and DD was the patch before hand. Also before the trait gave you absolutely nothing while you were i shroud..

  • Kuulpb.5412Kuulpb.5412 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    Based on the scale of the complaints I wonder how people played before this trait got changed because they make it sounds like it was impossible...only it wasn't..
    Seen people saying this change destroyed the class but, again, how did they play it before this change?

    Arguably when you compare the trait, even now, to the version of the trait beforehand it is a MUCH stronger trait.

    The issue is not that people couldn't use it before, the issue is it got taken away with a bad excuse.

    This still doesnt stop the trait from a) being over buffed, i mean if they didnt think they made it too strong they wouldnt have nerfed it, and b) STILL being stronger than its old version after the nerf. Also reason people don't like =/= excuse.

    I disagree with the assumption they wouldn’t nerf it unless it was overbuffed, as some changes over the past few years have made no sense regarding nerfs, such as focus 4 nerf, or warhorn nerfs as most recent for necro.

    They literally said they over buffed it so they are nerfing it? and they nerfed the part of the trait they deemd was over performing. You're still avoiding admitting its still a stronger trait that it was before.

    And I disagree with the complaints being how they removed it. People are acting like they can no longer play the class/ its been destroyed. What did they do 3 months ago?

    I just provided evidence why it is currently weaker than before, aswell ad evidence that they do not nerf things because it’s too strong. What more do you want?

    You edited your post whilst i was replying.. No they don't but when they explicitly state it was too strong and they are reducing it because of that why do you think they are nerfing it? And I said its overall a better trait not it doesn't have any parts that are weaker than before. It now is an option alongside DD instead of both being the 9/10 choice like it was the past patch and DD was the patch before hand. Also before the trait gave you absolutely nothing while you were i shroud..

    Apologies then as you didn’t see my reply - regarding the trait, before it was stronger than the current iteration as before it healed more AND Generates life force while also letting you use GS skills more often, while currently it is now heal ONLY in 300 range and ONLY 5% of damage done, it is absurdly weaker than it was before.

  • Kuulpb.5412Kuulpb.5412 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    Based on the scale of the complaints I wonder how people played before this trait got changed because they make it sounds like it was impossible...only it wasn't..
    Seen people saying this change destroyed the class but, again, how did they play it before this change?

    Arguably when you compare the trait, even now, to the version of the trait beforehand it is a MUCH stronger trait.

    The issue is not that people couldn't use it before, the issue is it got taken away with a bad excuse.

    This still doesnt stop the trait from a) being over buffed, i mean if they didnt think they made it too strong they wouldnt have nerfed it, and b) STILL being stronger than its old version after the nerf. Also reason people don't like =/= excuse.

    I disagree with the assumption they wouldn’t nerf it unless it was overbuffed, as some changes over the past few years have made no sense regarding nerfs, such as focus 4 nerf, or warhorn nerfs as most recent for necro.

    They literally said they over buffed it so they are nerfing it? and they nerfed the part of the trait they deemd was over performing. You're still avoiding admitting its still a stronger trait that it was before.

    And I disagree with the complaints being how they removed it. People are acting like they can no longer play the class/ its been destroyed. What did they do 3 months ago?

    I just provided evidence why it is currently weaker than before, aswell ad evidence that they do not nerf things because it’s too strong. What more do you want?

    Let's start over ... it's not relevant if it's weaker or not than it was before.

    What is relevant here is that healing in shroud to the extent we were seeing isn't part of the theme of the class, nor was it reasonable just from a performance perspective. Now you may begin.

    The two current ways to heal in shroud are minuscule healing every X, where X is either while in shroud, or when applying a boon to yourself in shroud, after testing a small amount this healing on boon application with 450 healing power (from blood magic trait) was 199 per boon, this is already weaker than just applying regeneration, but you don’t heal from regen in shroud so that bit isn’t the issue, the issue is the only two available heal in shrouds are grandmasters, unless you did 4k a tick every second, you would not heal 200 a second which would be more than the 199 per boon which can be gained from the spite line, one thing I also tested was signet of vampirism “did” heal through shroud when you hit something effected but that Was rather slow, necromancer healing in general is really low for the health they have, compared to the two 10k heals warriors get. Factoring all this in, the low healing from soul eater could not possibly be seen as too strong unless you cleave, which in itself is only effective in “some” situations. - to sum up, I feel that healing in shroud is not something that should be relegated to only grandmasters, especially when the healing from said trait is effectively worthless anyway.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2019

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    Based on the scale of the complaints I wonder how people played before this trait got changed because they make it sounds like it was impossible...only it wasn't..
    Seen people saying this change destroyed the class but, again, how did they play it before this change?

    Arguably when you compare the trait, even now, to the version of the trait beforehand it is a MUCH stronger trait.

    The issue is not that people couldn't use it before, the issue is it got taken away with a bad excuse.

    This still doesnt stop the trait from a) being over buffed, i mean if they didnt think they made it too strong they wouldnt have nerfed it, and b) STILL being stronger than its old version after the nerf. Also reason people don't like =/= excuse.

    I disagree with the assumption they wouldn’t nerf it unless it was overbuffed, as some changes over the past few years have made no sense regarding nerfs, such as focus 4 nerf, or warhorn nerfs as most recent for necro.

    They literally said they over buffed it so they are nerfing it? and they nerfed the part of the trait they deemd was over performing. You're still avoiding admitting its still a stronger trait that it was before.

    And I disagree with the complaints being how they removed it. People are acting like they can no longer play the class/ its been destroyed. What did they do 3 months ago?

    I just provided evidence why it is currently weaker than before, aswell ad evidence that they do not nerf things because it’s too strong. What more do you want?

    Let's start over ... it's not relevant if it's weaker or not than it was before.

    What is relevant here is that healing in shroud to the extent we were seeing isn't part of the theme of the class, nor was it reasonable just from a performance perspective. Now you may begin.

    The two current ways to heal in shroud are minuscule healing every X, where X is either while in shroud, or when applying a boon to yourself in shroud, after testing a small amount this healing on boon application with 450 healing power (from blood magic trait) was 199 per boon, this is already weaker than just applying regeneration, but you don’t heal from regen in shroud so that bit isn’t the issue, the issue is the only two available heal in shrouds are grandmasters, unless you did 4k a tick every second, you would not heal 200 a second which would be more than the 199 per boon which can be gained from the spite line, one thing I also tested was signet of vampirism “did” heal through shroud when you hit something effected but that Was rather slow, necromancer healing in general is really low for the health they have, compared to the two 10k heals warriors get. Factoring all this in, the low healing from soul eater could not possibly be seen as too strong unless you cleave, which in itself is only effective in “some” situations. - to sum up, I feel that healing in shroud is not something that should be relegated to only grandmasters, especially when the healing from said trait is effectively worthless anyway.

    I can appreciate that people have their reasons for why they think something should or shouldn't be. That's not unreasonable.

    What is unreasonable is to ignore the concept that theme are relevant to how the game is changed. I wouldn't go so far as to say theme dictate it because we have seen changes based purely on performance. but if your thinking does not include some recognition that there is a class theme here, the value of the idea is really low.

    The bottomline here is that necros 'don't heal' in shroud. Instead of emotionally attaching yourself to the premise that's 'wrong' and pushing for it come back, it would be MUCH more sensible to at least push for an idea to get more sustain (if the theme warrants it) in a manner that's more relevant to the theme itself. Why hang your hat for 'more sustain' argument on an effect that is CLEARLY not in line with how Anet wants the class to work? That's a fail right off the bat. Then people wonder why Anet doesn't communicate more to get player feedback?

    I know you have some convoluted approach to assessing Shroud heals from SE and concluding it was low. It doesn't matter. The numbers did all the talking and Anet was not ignoring that.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    Based on the scale of the complaints I wonder how people played before this trait got changed because they make it sounds like it was impossible...only it wasn't..
    Seen people saying this change destroyed the class but, again, how did they play it before this change?

    Arguably when you compare the trait, even now, to the version of the trait beforehand it is a MUCH stronger trait.

    The issue is not that people couldn't use it before, the issue is it got taken away with a bad excuse.

    This still doesnt stop the trait from a) being over buffed, i mean if they didnt think they made it too strong they wouldnt have nerfed it, and b) STILL being stronger than its old version after the nerf. Also reason people don't like =/= excuse.

    I disagree with the assumption they wouldn’t nerf it unless it was overbuffed, as some changes over the past few years have made no sense regarding nerfs, such as focus 4 nerf, or warhorn nerfs as most recent for necro.

    They literally said they over buffed it so they are nerfing it? and they nerfed the part of the trait they deemd was over performing. You're still avoiding admitting its still a stronger trait that it was before.

    And I disagree with the complaints being how they removed it. People are acting like they can no longer play the class/ its been destroyed. What did they do 3 months ago?

    I just provided evidence why it is currently weaker than before, aswell ad evidence that they do not nerf things because it’s too strong. What more do you want?

    You edited your post whilst i was replying.. No they don't but when they explicitly state it was too strong and they are reducing it because of that why do you think they are nerfing it? And I said its overall a better trait not it doesn't have any parts that are weaker than before. It now is an option alongside DD instead of both being the 9/10 choice like it was the past patch and DD was the patch before hand. Also before the trait gave you absolutely nothing while you were i shroud..

    Apologies then as you didn’t see my reply - regarding the trait, before it was stronger than the current iteration as before it healed more AND Generates life force while also letting you use GS skills more often, while currently it is now heal ONLY in 300 range and ONLY 5% of damage done, it is absurdly weaker than it was before.

    But it didn't provide the damage boost. You say only 300 range but it was a GS only trait before so you would either be limited to using GS, which its effective range is within 300 , or getting absolutely nothing from the trait. Nothing in shroud, nothing for non GS weapons. Absolutely nothing at all. The LF gain was also directly better, more often than not ,than what you could get out of CV due to its icd so there was overlap. Plus it was 0.5%/s and again only while wielding a GS.

    The cool-down , sure that is a real loss but some was baked in on #3 and #5 saw a range increase ( though it needs speeding up a little ).

    Sure on average you need to do 4k dps to match the 200hp/s from being but that's on average. At any given point if an attack, not limited to any time interval or weapon, does more than 4k damage you are benefiting more from the trait now than before.

    As a whole it's a stronger trait and promotes a more active and varied play-style.

    Plus my point is with how sensational the complaints are how did people play before? Since they are making it sound like it was impossible.

  • Kuulpb.5412Kuulpb.5412 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    Based on the scale of the complaints I wonder how people played before this trait got changed because they make it sounds like it was impossible...only it wasn't..
    Seen people saying this change destroyed the class but, again, how did they play it before this change?

    Arguably when you compare the trait, even now, to the version of the trait beforehand it is a MUCH stronger trait.

    The issue is not that people couldn't use it before, the issue is it got taken away with a bad excuse.

    This still doesnt stop the trait from a) being over buffed, i mean if they didnt think they made it too strong they wouldnt have nerfed it, and b) STILL being stronger than its old version after the nerf. Also reason people don't like =/= excuse.

    I disagree with the assumption they wouldn’t nerf it unless it was overbuffed, as some changes over the past few years have made no sense regarding nerfs, such as focus 4 nerf, or warhorn nerfs as most recent for necro.

    They literally said they over buffed it so they are nerfing it? and they nerfed the part of the trait they deemd was over performing. You're still avoiding admitting its still a stronger trait that it was before.

    And I disagree with the complaints being how they removed it. People are acting like they can no longer play the class/ its been destroyed. What did they do 3 months ago?

    I just provided evidence why it is currently weaker than before, aswell ad evidence that they do not nerf things because it’s too strong. What more do you want?

    You edited your post whilst i was replying.. No they don't but when they explicitly state it was too strong and they are reducing it because of that why do you think they are nerfing it? And I said its overall a better trait not it doesn't have any parts that are weaker than before. It now is an option alongside DD instead of both being the 9/10 choice like it was the past patch and DD was the patch before hand. Also before the trait gave you absolutely nothing while you were i shroud..

    Apologies then as you didn’t see my reply - regarding the trait, before it was stronger than the current iteration as before it healed more AND Generates life force while also letting you use GS skills more often, while currently it is now heal ONLY in 300 range and ONLY 5% of damage done, it is absurdly weaker than it was before.

    But it didn't provide the damage boost. You say only 300 range but it was a GS only trait before so you would either be limited to using GS, which its effective range is within 300 , or getting absolutely nothing from the trait. Nothing in shroud, nothing for non GS weapons. Absolutely nothing at all. The LF gain was also directly better, more often than not ,than what you could get out of CV due to its icd so there was overlap. Plus it was 0.5%/s and again only while wielding a GS.

    The cool-down , sure that is a real loss but some was baked in on #3 and #5 saw a range increase ( though it needs speeding up a little ).

    Sure on average you need to do 4k dps to match the 200hp/s from being but that's on average. At any given point if an attack, not limited to any time interval or weapon, does more than 4k damage you are benefiting more from the trait now than before.

    As a whole it's a stronger trait and promotes a more active and varied play-style.

    Plus my point is with how sensational the complaints are how did people play before? Since they are making it sound like it was impossible.

    GS is the hardest hitting melee reaper gets access to outside of shroud, healing LESS than before on the same weapon means it's a downgrade. I do agree some complaints make it seem like you couldn't play necro at all, but the general idea is it was a change, and they removed a benefit.

  • Tiviana.2650Tiviana.2650 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I want to know why reaper gets the axe when you have class/builds out there that are far more op, builds that can kill fast with high damage high mitigation high sustain and crowd control. Yet necro gets a little above its station and they nerf it. Talk about unbalanced. If x is doing to much sustain and damage and y is also, why only nerf x? But everyone totes the line as long as its a unimportant class that gets nerfed. I have been part of pc game culture for almost 2 decades i know when things arent right, and i dont like echo chambers. Thats a good way to stagnate a game and run it into the ground. Fairness in gameplay is what promotes a healthy game, you have to balance the different classes to make them all play well, i dont see that here. I see an echo chamber.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 26, 2019

    Actually, I would say that if the class starts where they want it to be and they make it too good, it gets nerfed BACK to it's desired position ... that's what balance is supposed to be.

    As for fairness ... I've never played an MMO that was. They can't be when the options are so numerous and different. It's a lot of pipe dreams to have 'fair, balanced' MMO's.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • XECOR.2814XECOR.2814 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    Based on the scale of the complaints I wonder how people played before this trait got changed because they make it sounds like it was impossible...only it wasn't..
    Seen people saying this change destroyed the class but, again, how did they play it before this change?

    Arguably when you compare the trait, even now, to the version of the trait beforehand it is a MUCH stronger trait.

    The issue is not that people couldn't use it before, the issue is it got taken away with a bad excuse.

    This still doesnt stop the trait from a) being over buffed, i mean if they didnt think they made it too strong they wouldnt have nerfed it, and b) STILL being stronger than its old version after the nerf. Also reason people don't like =/= excuse.

    I disagree with the assumption they wouldn’t nerf it unless it was overbuffed, as some changes over the past few years have made no sense regarding nerfs, such as focus 4 nerf, or warhorn nerfs as most recent for necro.

    They literally said they over buffed it so they are nerfing it? and they nerfed the part of the trait they deemd was over performing. You're still avoiding admitting its still a stronger trait that it was before.

    And I disagree with the complaints being how they removed it. People are acting like they can no longer play the class/ its been destroyed. What did they do 3 months ago?

    I just provided evidence why it is currently weaker than before, aswell ad evidence that they do not nerf things because it’s too strong. What more do you want?

    You edited your post whilst i was replying.. No they don't but when they explicitly state it was too strong and they are reducing it because of that why do you think they are nerfing it? And I said its overall a better trait not it doesn't have any parts that are weaker than before. It now is an option alongside DD instead of both being the 9/10 choice like it was the past patch and DD was the patch before hand. Also before the trait gave you absolutely nothing while you were i shroud..

    Apologies then as you didn’t see my reply - regarding the trait, before it was stronger than the current iteration as before it healed more AND Generates life force while also letting you use GS skills more often, while currently it is now heal ONLY in 300 range and ONLY 5% of damage done, it is absurdly weaker than it was before.

    But it didn't provide the damage boost. You say only 300 range but it was a GS only trait before so you would either be limited to using GS, which its effective range is within 300 , or getting absolutely nothing from the trait. Nothing in shroud, nothing for non GS weapons. Absolutely nothing at all. The LF gain was also directly better, more often than not ,than what you could get out of CV due to its icd so there was overlap. Plus it was 0.5%/s and again only while wielding a GS.

    The cool-down , sure that is a real loss but some was baked in on #3 and #5 saw a range increase ( though it needs speeding up a little ).

    Sure on average you need to do 4k dps to match the 200hp/s from being but that's on average. At any given point if an attack, not limited to any time interval or weapon, does more than 4k damage you are benefiting more from the trait now than before.

    As a whole it's a stronger trait and promotes a more active and varied play-style.

    Plus my point is with how sensational the complaints are how did people play before? Since they are making it sound like it was impossible.

    Do you even wvw bruh. Its impossible, still is. I laughed so hard when they said reaper are supposed to be frontline fighters hahaha. And you know what is funny the removed the GS trait to give a general healing trait no matter the weapon but added melee range restriction because all other weapons are mid-ranged forcing you to play gs to utilize the healing in any way. But its not a buff because you could get constant 200 ticks before from gs but its very difficult to get that now consistently. These sneaky changes to force you to play certain weapons is laughable also a massive nerf to sustain and flavour of class. Another boring 10% modifier on a master trait lol.

  • dceptaconroy.7928dceptaconroy.7928 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 26, 2019

    Warhorn 5 had to be nerfed as sustain was too high and it was in keeping with future plans to 'rework' Soul Eater which was offering over the top benefits not in keeping with the theme.
    You've always got the option to use BB.
    We didnt have the healing in shroud before so whatchoo talkin bout Willis./You're all complaining for the sake of it.
    People expect too much and everyone has differing views on what is optimum, they cant balance around that, and why should they.
    I've logged on and dont see any difference, qq more.
    Use another class. You cant expect necro to be everything.
    Just summarizing. If I've left any out add on lads.

  • XECOR.2814XECOR.2814 Member ✭✭✭

    @dceptaconroy.7928 said:

    Warhorn 5 had to be nerfed as sustain was too high and it was in keeping with future plans to 'rework' Soul Eater which was offering over the top benefits not in keeping with the theme.
    You've always got the option to use BB.
    We didnt have the healing in shroud before so whatchoo talkin bout Willis./You're all complaining for the sake of it.
    People expect too much and everyone has differing views on what is optimum, they cant balance around that, and why should they.
    I've logged on and dont see any difference, qq more.
    Use another class. You cant expect necro to be everything.
    Just summarizing. If I've left any out add on lads.

    Warhorn gives lf and se gives hp they are different kinds of sustain. We have very few ways to sustain shroud uptime and they nerfed it for very low base heal. If they did this to follow up with se trait then there is no words how to express ho2 stupid they are because

    1. Warhorn is core weapon so it nerfs all necro while only buffing reaper with se trait sustain(lol)-wise.

    2. Warhorn gave shroud sustain while new warhorn and se trait gives only hp gains out of shroud. So their functionality are completely different and inferior. Worth noticing that warhorn healing is so low that you only use it for (unreliable-unblockable) daze and swiftness(lol) now. If you use it.

    3. For the gs trait before there was no melee range restriction as long as you have it equipped you got healing, which is greatly superior to on attack+in range healing because you could gain healing while kiting out of shroud. Reaper is all about kiting and we get 0 value from it now. Also i remembered they removed cripple from warhorn right?

    4. We are talking about sustain from master tier lets not talk about gm traits here. I know my options, only talking about master tier here, you might want to stay on topic.

  • Xxnecroxx.4039Xxnecroxx.4039 Member ✭✭✭

    this is Anet we are talking about where their slogan is it is NERF OR NOTHING when it comes to necros all around, they should just rename the class to nerfomancer, because they only want necro to be a boon corrupt bot AND NOTHING ELSE, if you build for anything else there is gonna be another class that does It better in every way

  • dceptaconroy.7928dceptaconroy.7928 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 26, 2019

    I dont want to stay on topic I just wanted to put out all the white knight responses before they got out. All a little tongue in cheek. No seriousness at all. If you chk my other thread responses regarding wh5 I was one of the first that had a cry about it. I just made Verdarach the week before so I was a little miffed!

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 26, 2019

    @XECOR.2814 said:
    Overall Anet's performance for necromancers has been very very poor and we have every right to complain.

    My favourite part is that nothing I've said is wrong. Complain all you want. I ENCOURAGE you to do so. Just don't be surprised when you don't understand what's happening around you and the game isn't the way you think it should be.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 26, 2019

    Just my 2 cents but perhaps they don’t intend for Reapers to be the sustain type of spec. Pure raw spike damage yes. Some minor sustain yes.

    But not decent or strong sustain.

    Scourge seems to fill the sustain role better.

    Which is how balance should be done imo. There are clear trade offs between damage and defense.

    Necros have always been the best balanced class.

    • Condition damage requires a relatively slow ramp up time which is how condis should be, unlike other classes who apply condi spike bursts.
    • Non-scaling defences which is how defense should be, unlike other classes who can regardless of enemy numbers, negate damage or drop target totally.
    • Long range mobility skills require pre-setup, unlike other classes who can blink in and out instantly.

    Unfortunately, most other classes with high spike damage are a lot more “durable” than Reapers because their defenses allow them to negate damage or drop target totally. This makes the other classes unbalanced.

    Now this is a problem if only Necros are balanced while the rest are unbalanced.
    And because of the unbalanced state of other classes, I would say bring back our heal in shroud because that allows us to compete on a more even footing with the rest.

    Or if they still don’t think Reapers should have too much damage and sustain, I would be very happy too if they made this trait give our Reaper shroud a 7 seconds cooldown.

    Visit 🏴‍☠️ Eremite's WvW Necromancy Graveyard 🏴‍☠️

    CD -> TC -> Mag -> GOM -> AR -> JQ

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    Just my 2 cents but perhaps they don’t intend for Reapers to be the sustain type of spec. Pure raw spike damage yes. Some minor sustain yes.

    But not decent or strong sustain.

    Scourge seems to fill the sustain role better.

    Which is how balance should be done imo. There are clear trade offs between damage and defense.

    Necros have always been the best balanced class.

    • Condition damage requires a relatively slow ramp up time which is how condis should be, unlike other classes who apply condi spike bursts.
    • Non-scaling defences which is how defense should be, unlike other classes who can regardless of enemy numbers, negate damage or drop target totally.
    • Long range mobility skills require pre-setup, unlike other classes who can blink in and out instantly.

    Unfortunately, most other classes with high spike damage are a lot more “durable” than Reapers because their defenses allow them to negate damage or drop target totally. This makes the other classes unbalanced.

    Now this is a problem if only Necros are balanced while the rest are unbalanced.
    And because of the unbalanced state of other classes, I would say bring back our heal in shroud because that allows us to compete on a more even footing with the rest.

    Or if they still don’t think Reapers should have too much damage and sustain, I would be very happy too if they made this trait give our Reaper shroud a 7 seconds cooldown.

    You are better off asking for an additional block or something in a utility or a weapon skill. Soul eater did not help solve any problems. If you notice the healing against other players it means that they are getting hit by your shroud attacks, which means that you should be winning anyway even without the minuscule healing. The problem is that it scales into absurdity in PvE when you AoE down trash mobs. This healing being tied to a damage trait is also problematic, because you should be choosing between damage and sustain/defense in every choice you make in your build. I cannot think of another profession off the top of my head that has trait with both a damage modifier and sustain built into it. There could be a trait that I'm missing, but if it exists it probably needs to get changed as well.

    I also do not like the scholar rune argument that is often used. Having 100% uptime of a 5% modifier is not a big deal, even 80% uptime is great. While shroud can give you a disadvantage to getting healed to keep your scholar rune, you also have to consider that you have some advantages. Chip damage is more effective on breaking scholar rune on low HP classes and if your HP is full when you shroud up, you can keep your scholar uptime easier than other classes. It all depends on the situation.

  • Kahrgan.7401Kahrgan.7401 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Actually, I would say that if the class starts where they want it to be and they make it too good, it gets nerfed BACK to it's desired position ... that's what balance is supposed to be.

    As for fairness ... I've never played an MMO that was. They can't be when the options are so numerous and different. It's a lot of pipe dreams to have 'fair, balanced' MMO's.

    Mirage = OP
    Warrior = OP
    Scrapper tank = OP (not a lot of dmg, but stupid hard to kill (this is the reason d/d ele was nerfed, but this isnt getting the same treatment?))
    I could go on, but you get the point.

    They do a kitten job in balancing. Like OP said, they need to use a chisel, not a chainsaw, but they get lazy and do sweeping changes all at once.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 27, 2019

    @Kahrgan.7401 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Actually, I would say that if the class starts where they want it to be and they make it too good, it gets nerfed BACK to it's desired position ... that's what balance is supposed to be.

    As for fairness ... I've never played an MMO that was. They can't be when the options are so numerous and different. It's a lot of pipe dreams to have 'fair, balanced' MMO's.

    Mirage = OP
    Warrior = OP
    Scrapper tank = OP (not a lot of dmg, but stupid hard to kill (this is the reason d/d ele was nerfed, but this isnt getting the same treatment?))
    I could go on, but you get the point.

    They do a kitten job in balancing. Like OP said, they need to use a chisel, not a chainsaw, but they get lazy and do sweeping changes all at once.

    OK but this doesn't change what I said. It actually makes what I said MORE true. If Anet are bad at balance, what makes anyone think fair and balanced are things we are going to get?

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 28, 2019

    Again, I'm not saying to not complain ... but do it in a way that makes sense. Someone complaining they get one-shotted has nothing to do with SE Shroud heals.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

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