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The gods and gender imbalance (spoilers)


Vesuvius.9874

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In the beginning (GW1 Prophecies), we had 5 gods, 3 of whom were female. A slight imbalance but I guess that's how it had to be given the odd number of them. Could've gone either way but that's how it ended up. Fair enough. No biggie. Then came Nightfall and the introduction of a new male god, Abaddon. I look at it and say great! An even number now. 3 on each side, but not for long. By the end of Nightfall, we take down Abaddon and replace him with a new goddess. 6 gods but the balance is made worse. We now have only 2 male gods (Grenth and Balthazar). You can see where I'm going with this...

GW2 is launched and we get to play Nightfall again Path of Fire where we take out another male god, Balthazar. What does our pantheon look like now? Well it's just Grenth hanging out with the ladies. 5 gods - 1 god and 4 goddesses. 80% of the human pantheon is female. Am I the only one who has an issue with this?

My other issue is with the other existing gods (demigods?). Why are all the other male gods evil?

Menzies - male - evilDhuum - male - evilAbaddon - male - evilBalthazar - male - evilvsDwayna - female - goodMelandru - female - goodLyssa - female - goodKormir - female - good

The only god left at this point is Grenth. Is it safe to assume that he's going to be turned into an evil god of death at some point by ANET because he's male? Possibly the villian of the next expansion? Does this sort of imbalance speak to certain biases and/or views the writers hold? This seems like such a glaring issue to me and I wanted to get a feel of what the community thinks.

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@Malediktus.9250 said:Good find, I also wonder who the person is that replaced Balthasar in the six. Kormir mentioned that he was replaced?

Since kralky gobbled up Balthazars magic, does he need a replacement? If we go by the idea that the gods are self-appointed powerful beings, then a god of war surely would be unneeded if no magic is available for an angry guy to absorb. And the six seemed to do fine without a sixth. Abaddon and later Balthazar himself was locked up, so its not that they need a sixth member to function.

When Kralkarorik dies or otherwise gets his magic either lessened or removed i can see someone stepping in to take it before the world collapses on itself. Perhaps someone would take the magic and then leave to whereever the rest of the pantheon went to remove Kralky and Balthys magic from the cycle.

About the gender imbalance; Its not an issue in itself, though it does seem odd the writing team is made all the bad ones male and all the good ones female. Might just be unforesighted coincidence or cliches or what have you. Lyssa does seem suspect lately with Balthazar having her mirror, Kormir remarking "all the other gods, even lyssa wanted him locked in the mists" (or something to that effect, exact quote misses my mind) and Balthazar not cursing her out by his demise. Though it would certaily be dissapointing if she turns out ot be the new empty baddie like Balthazar was.

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I don't really see an issue or problem with this. I get it from a writer standpoint to appease a small group of people who care about gender differences if that was where I was aiming, but from an in depth story pov, what does it matter? For how they became gods/demi-gods has nothing to do with their gender, but their deeds. Them being male or female I doubt has anything to with who is "evil" or "Good".
The God of War was released, then later killed. He'd still be alive if a certain charr didn't need his flaming stick back so bad. Good Vs Evil is all in perspective. What crosses through your mind when you think of how a God of War would act? Would they be loving and kind? Calm and quiet? No, not for me anyways. Ultimately, Balthazar gave you many chances and was impressed by you; he didn't WANT to kill you but you literally got in the way of his plans deemed it the best option. To the story, he is evil & to the gods they did not side with him but that's not evil. The goddesses from what you can tell aren't helpful at all. When you finally meet kormir, she's just as useful as she was in Nightfall. (which she wasn't FYI) Some people view not being helpful as bad, as in they're not on your side depending on the dire of situation. I think most of the Gods as neutral. It's inclinded that one of the mesmer goddesses tried to take on Zhaitan and he ate her up. But the priestess of lyssa could just be spewing crap and trying to 'demoralize' the character. If she were to try to take on the elder dragon before you, was she aligned with balth or did not know the weight of her actions? Maybe it was just a lie from a risen priestess, as kormir said everyone else (deities) bailed. The imbalance of the sexes between the useless gw2 deities, I do not have a problem with it, nor have I thought about it until now. If grenth decided to act against the commander, then he'd be sniped as well. Same with any of the female goddesses.

TL;DR - God of War wants battle, chaos and war. He went against commander & got his ass handed to him. End of story. There is no Good vs Evil. Just perpective VS perspective. The Goddesses/ Gods tend to be as placid as what they represent. No big surprise there.

If you have an issue, then you're looking to hard into it.

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Calling someone like Melandru "female" the same way an Asura can be "female" is quite a stretch really, s/he is much more akin to the spirits of the wild and the druids. Kormir is actually the best example of this though; think of Path of Fire 1 Nightfall, and how after merging with Abaddon she said she was neither Kormir nor Abbadon, but something else, a third being made up of his knowledge and power.

Also, it's certainly not canon (yet?), but it is loosely hinted by the Realm of Torment's layout from GW1 (and a particular .dat file hence why it's not canon) that Abbadon acquired his power from dethroning an Elder God of insectoid shape. That would put him far from being male or female in the normal sense. Balthazar, Menzies, and Dwayna I think are the only ones with explicit ties to binary-like genders. Grenth might be referred as a son of Dwayna but I don't think he has any gender identity if he is anything like his reapers, and Dhuum, in spite of our assumptions about gender, is more of an embodiment to a concept than anything else (in this case, he is death itself).Lyssa, one might also argue, can probably shape herself as literally anything and it's a mere coincidence if the usual preference is for a cis-female form. So TL;DR: I don't think the genders mattered even back in GW1 and so the new writers are not doing any injustice of sorts to this aspect.

Now, if you want to talk about something that really grinds my [250 sprockets] , head to my topic about Joko where we discuss how the writers absolutely butchered their own parody of N. Korea, because in this fantasy settings it actually makes sense that someone like Joko exists.

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@Penguin.1345 said:Since kralky gobbled up Balthazars magic, does he need a replacement?

Balthazar was stripped of his divinity before the events of Season 3 (and probably before the events of GW2 in general). He was imprisoned in a near mortal state. Balthazar being so weak is actually a plot point of Season 3 (though not mentioned until his reveal in Flashpoint). The magic that Kralkatorrik ate came from the bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag.

Balthazar's divinity had to go somewhere.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Balthazar's divinity had to go somewhere.

Did it, though? Normally I would agree with you, but then one of the writers said this...

[–]Anet-ConnieGlad you liked the blind ;) There was some discussion whether it was too annoying to have the screen effect up the whole time and whether we should pull it, but in the end the hardcore GW1 fans in the office felt it would be an offense to the Six (or I guess the Five) if we didn't.

...So it's the Five now? How did they strip Balthazar's divinity without all of it going straight up Abaddon post-death? Why didn't they do that to Abaddon if it was so easy?

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Well the pantheon in GW2 is unusual, it doesn't have a craftsman or father figure or sun god which are usually male but it does have a mother nature, beauty/manipulation and mercy which are generally seen as feminine. I don't think this was a concious decision to stack the deck with women just the original writers went for some less regular deities.

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@Athrenn.9468 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Balthazar's divinity had to go somewhere.

Did it, though? Normally I would agree with you, but then one of the writers said this...

[–]Anet-ConnieGlad you liked the blind ;) There was some discussion whether it was too annoying to have the screen effect up the whole time and whether we should pull it, but in the end the hardcore GW1 fans in the office felt it would be an offense to the Six (or I guess the Five) if we didn't.

...So it's the Five now? How did they strip Balthazar's divinity without all of it going straight up Abaddon post-death? Why didn't they do that to Abaddon if it was so easy?

That's an off the hand comment of a dev so I'm not taking it too seriously yet.

Other than Kormir still suggesting there are Six by calling herself and the others 'The Six'...

If there is no replacement for Balthazar, it is also possible that they found a vessel of some kind to hold Balthazar's God-power.

The reason, if I remember correctly, that they couldn't kill Abaddon was because they had no way of destroying his magic.

It's possible in the last 250 odd years that they've discovered a way to either keep that power contained or destroy it. I'd lean on contained if there is truly no replacement for Balthazar since destroying it a) seems like a cop out, and b) magic in general thus far doesn't seem like something that can be destroyed. Granted, divine magic and Tyrian magic seem to be somewhat different at their core.

It would make sense though that containing it somewhere would be useful for transferring it to another when the time came. Balthazar made no mention of being replaced, only stripped, and if it was as simple as moving it to another body then I'd imagine Balthazar would know who had replaced him or that he had indeed been replaced. This could just be him not mentioning it though.

Still, Kormir referring to the Gods as The Six is a little odd if there is no one as of yet replacing him.

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@Coulter.2315 said:Well the pantheon in GW2 is unusual, it doesn't have a craftsman or father figure or sun god which are usually male but it does have a mother nature, beauty/manipulation and mercy which are generally seen as feminine. I don't think this was a concious decision to stack the deck with women just the original writers went for some less regular deities.

There are some indications, albeit subtle ones, that Balthazar took the role of a forge god in the pantheon (need to have weapons and armour to fight with, after all...), while Dwayna took the role of a sun goddess (light and warmth have been said to be in her domains).

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@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:Well the pantheon in GW2 is unusual, it doesn't have a craftsman or father figure or sun god which are usually male but it does have a mother nature, beauty/manipulation and mercy which are generally seen as feminine. I don't think this was a concious decision to stack the deck with women just the original writers went for some less regular deities.

There are some indications, albeit subtle ones, that Balthazar took the role of a forge god in the pantheon (need to have weapons and armour to fight with, after all...), while Dwayna took the role of a sun goddess (light and warmth have been said to be in her domains).

I have never heard Dwayna described as a sun goddess (is it mentioned when we speak to Hylek who worship the sun?), Balth could take the craftsman title sure.

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Honestly I think Grenth is in a good position to stay as one of the pantheon, he has ties to judgement and balance so I don't think they'd turn him down the path of fallen God. Given the subtle hints we got in the story so far it might be that Lyssa is the most likely to turn bad, and it would fit her more being tied to the idea of chaos and illusion. She could be the great deceiver in all this!

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@Coulter.2315 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:Well the pantheon in GW2 is unusual, it doesn't have a craftsman or father figure or sun god which are usually male but it does have a mother nature, beauty/manipulation and mercy which are generally seen as feminine. I don't think this was a concious decision to stack the deck with women just the original writers went for some less regular deities.

There are some indications, albeit subtle ones, that Balthazar took the role of a forge god in the pantheon (need to have weapons and armour to fight with, after all...), while Dwayna took the role of a sun goddess (light and warmth have been said to be in her domains).

I have never heard Dwayna described as a sun goddess (is it mentioned when we speak to Hylek who worship the sun?), Balth could take the craftsman title sure.

In GW1's Wintersday events, she's described by an NPC as the goddess of light and warmth (alongside her more normal attributes), which are aspects that are normally associated with sun deities, in addition to the general concept of being a lifebringer. She was also the goddess of the sky in general, which would include the sun.

Like I said, subtle indications: nothing specific. She may or may not be specifically associated with the sun directly, but she certainly has qualities typically associated with sun deities (which I'd note aren't always male in historical mythology - sun goddesses were common in Asia, for instance). It's also worth noting that while Zintl is described as male by the hylek, Zintl has a number of attributes in common with Dwayna.

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@Vesuvius.9874 said:In the beginning (GW1 Prophecies), we had 5 gods, 3 of whom were female. A slight imbalance but I guess that's how it had to be given the odd number of them. Could've gone either way but that's how it ended up. Fair enough. No biggie. Then came Nightfall and the introduction of a new male god, Abaddon. I look at it and say great! An even number now. 3 on each side, but not for long. By the end of Nightfall, we take down Abaddon and replace him with a new goddess. 6 gods but the balance is made worse. We now have only 2 male gods (Grenth and Balthazar). You can see where I'm going with this...

GW2 is launched and we get to play Nightfall again Path of Fire where we take out another male god, Balthazar. What does our pantheon look like now? Well it's just Grenth hanging out with the ladies. 5 gods - 1 god and 4 goddesses. 80% of the human pantheon is female. Am I the only one who has an issue with this?

My other issue is with the other existing gods (demigods?). Why are all the other male gods evil?

Menzies - male - evilDhuum - male - evilAbaddon - male - evilBalthazar - male - evilvsDwayna - female - goodMelandru - female - goodLyssa - female - goodKormir - female - good

The only god left at this point is Grenth. Is it safe to assume that he's going to be turned into an evil god of death at some point by ANET because he's male? Possibly the villian of the next expansion? Does this sort of imbalance speak to certain biases and/or views the writers hold? This seems like such a glaring issue to me and I wanted to get a feel of what the community thinks.

wow.. and ur bothered by it why?

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I wouldnt call Dhuum evil though. He had a strict polucy that was just 100% of the time, and he punished people who cheated their way out. The other gods just didn't like his method, so he became evil through disagreement.

And what makes you think lyssa and melandru are 'good'? Theyre neutral at best

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Dhuum is often called unjust, which means that he was more than just very strict. Grenth is called very strict, after all, and still better than Dhuum.

Melandru wanted peace among races, and worked towards such, so I would argue that makes her a "good" individual even if at times she was willing to be harsh ("that is the way of nature").

Lyssa is definitely more neutral though, but leans towards the "good" side of neutral. She's sometimes (though not often) described as chaotic, unpredictable, and can be harsh to those who are not her faithful it seems. But at the same time, in fact most of the time, she's promoted peace, joy, and happiness.

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I think it's just a coincidence or perhaps more a symptom that the lead villains always seem to be male in the franchise, God or otherwise. The White Mantle leaders we face, Lazarus, The Vizier, Shiro, Abaddon, Caudecus, that asuran villain in Crucible of Eternity, Gaheron Baelfire, Balthazar.Of significant female villains, we only really have Varesh from Nightfall and Scarlet Briar (there are a few minor ones of course like Estel)

Ultimately it doesn't matter too much.

There's always the God-King Palawa Joko though. He is the most good of all and balances things out at least. Praise Joko!

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@Randulf.7614 You forgot about Faolain, Mai Trin, Herald of Balthazar, and Minister Reiko (Winds of Change). That's 6 major female villains, versus 7 male villains (I wouldn't count Gaheron, since he's present for only one instance and is otherwise just a name; I am instead counting Joko since he's a villain technically and very major; I am only counting Kudu in protest though, since his role is fairly minor compared to the rest). Elder Dragons are technically genderless, but Mordremoth is voiced by a guy so one can argue adding him to make 8 major male villains (9 if you really want to stretch Gaheron's importance to GW2).

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I think it's not worth worrying about the genders of key characters. Unless there was an antagonist with a specific agenda to lob off dangly reproductive bits or something, it's probably not some kind of conspiracy against "men's rights " or whatever. I mean, really, it's a 50 50 thing that any character will be shown as a male or female. Because, all arguing on gender fluidity aside, that's just how they'll appear. (I mean, maybe the Herald of Balthazar identified as a male or something else, but it's not like we had a chance to ask or care. So we'll just continue to call it a female)

I really didn't notice the lack of male gods until this post, and I still think it's an unimportant detail. Probably nothing to speculate on here aside from just random odds. I've seen the crigiest parts of Tumblr too, and can assure you that 99% of the rest of the world is not out to overthrow or replace men or anything.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:@Randulf.7614 You forgot about Faolain, Mai Trin, Herald of Balthazar, and Minister Reiko (Winds of Change). That's 6 major female villains, versus 7 male villains (I wouldn't count Gaheron, since he's present for only one instance and is otherwise just a name; I am instead counting Joko since he's a villain technically and very major; I am only counting Kudu in protest though, since his role is fairly minor compared to the rest). Elder Dragons are technically genderless, but Mordremoth is voiced by a guy so one can argue adding him to make 8 major male villains (9 if you really want to stretch Gaheron's importance to GW2).

I concede my point to you entirely - I had forgotten about faolain and mai trin. I also have not played wonds of change since i left gw1 before that was added and didnt even know about til long after gw2 launched.

Joko a villain tho....tsk ;D

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@Randulf.7614 said:I think it's just a coincidence or perhaps more a symptom that the lead villains always seem to be male in the franchise, God or otherwise. The White Mantle leaders we face, Lazarus, The Vizier, Shiro, Abaddon, Caudecus, that asuran villain in Crucible of Eternity, Gaheron Baelfire, Balthazar.Of significant female villains, we only really have Varesh from Nightfall and Scarlet Briar (there are a few minor ones of course like Estel)Don't forget Duchess Faolain. But yes, we are a little light on female villains.

On the other hand, I don't think we really need to have a balance of genders in the gods. It really is a trivial matter that more of the gods are females rather than male, and we still don't know if they had chosen a replacement for Balthazar or not. We know they took his power, but they could have either split the power evenly amongst themselves, or chosen a new god while Balthazar was imprisoned in the Mists. As he was probably there for some time, at least 2 years to the end of Path of Fire if not longer, they could have chosen a replacement long ago.

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