Photon Forge Should Reveal Player Upon Entering in PVP modes

There really isn't much you can do that won't hurt other engi specs.

I am confident that if you add reveal to forge, the spec will be balanced.

There should be no cooldown either. Every time you go in you get 6 secs reveal.

Barring some edge cases, I'm not sure why this is a big problem? Throw Elixir S is the only on-demand stealth skill holo has.

Problem that "the only stealth" overshadowing every other "group stealth" utility by a long shot, especially not even occupying an utility slot but a toolbelt with ridiculously low cooldown, thats allow not only blast billion time turrets but also have an opening on you after that.This thread is weird indeed, this spec will never be balanced just because you gain self-reveal on entering forge, thats ... stoopid ... better to focus on spammy aspect of the forge and what makes it spammable - low cooldown on forge skills, especially corona burst/leap and this trait that drop heat and heal you, so this way you dont hurt "other engi builds".

@"praqtos.9035" said:Problem that "the only stealth" overshadowing every other "group stealth" utility by a long shot, especially not even occupying an utility slot but a toolbelt with ridiculously low cooldown, thats allow not only blast billion time turrets but also have an opening on you after that.

Not to disagree with you that such a nerf would be pointless, but I do want to point out the bold for two reasons:

1. Toolbelts are determined by the utility slot. So in a sense, it is occupying a utility slot. Engi build design relies upon thinking about the toolbelt for each utility slot.
2. The toolbelt is (one of) the stated reasons why engineer doesn't have a weapon swap, and also why we have crappy MH weapons.

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@"praqtos.9035" said:Problem that "the only stealth" overshadowing every other "group stealth" utility by a long shot,

especially not even occupying an utility slot but a toolbelt

with ridiculously low cooldown, thats allow not only blast billion time turrets but also have an opening on you after that.

1. Toolbelts are determined by the utility slot. So in a sense, it is occupying a utility slot. When it comes to build design, engineers must pick their utility slots with toolbelt in mind.We both know its comes in a package with a nice breakstun-invul utility, hardly can tell "but im taking bad utility just for stealth" when other classes can proudly say so, hence why they arent taking them.
2. The toolbelt is the stated reason why engineer doesn't have a weapon swap, and also why we have crappy MH weapons.I thought you said in other thread it was kits?Rifle is very good imo, pistol definitely feels kinda underwhelming (condi weapon, who would guess its sucks). Engineer feels like they lack weapon arsenal that they can choose from, having an extra core weapon would be useful to have choices. Probably they made it like that to force engis into kits but still kits feels pretty bad PvP.

Prime Light Beam 100% deserves revealed similar to Death's Judgement.

Next Balance patch:Anet: "Entering Photon Forge now reveals for 6 seconds."

few magical changes in between

Also Anet: "Throw Elixir S now removes reveal in addition to its current effects"

The problem with holo it is that it has short cds on most of it skills which makes it feel really spammy, it doesn't have down time it flows smoothly from one cooldown to the next and always have something to press to help it in a way that design might be good for pve (they buggered that up for some reason with the last patch), but it is terrible for pvp. Fighting holo is hard if you don't have sure fire escape or help for +1, you are screwed since their cds will come out faster and surviving the first holo forge is hard and you are always on the defensive and the heat mechanic doesn't work as a resource in my opinion it is self controlled cooldown and doesn't really have drawback to it, rev, thief, warrior, necromancer, druid have somewhat of a time limit on how they can keep up the fight. Look at warrior it is really good for 1v1 but is terrible at teamfight it can weave cds and bursts if it hits, the necromancer is on the other side it is better to have more bodies to hit to gain life force, rev and thief are on hit and run tactics and druid i don't know what purpose it has anymore, hope it becomes Teamfight healer or something.Holo is just safe all the time, since they never run out of options, there isn't really "my time is up" moment where you need help or you die .I know the design fits the RP for engi but it doesn't feel that great on the receiver getting stunlocked to death and not able to even make a dent on them since they are quite bursty and versatile for how good their defense is. It is just good at everything for pvp it can rotate fast , it can teamfight it can duel and it can +1, that is really cool but it sometimes ends up better at something than some classes designed for the job.

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@"praqtos.9035" said:Problem that "the only stealth" overshadowing every other "group stealth" utility by a long shot,

especially not even occupying an utility slot but a toolbelt

with ridiculously low cooldown, thats allow not only blast billion time turrets but also have an opening on you after that.

1. Toolbelts are determined by the utility slot. So in a sense, it is occupying a utility slot. Engi build design relies upon thinking about the toolbelt for each utility slot.
2. The toolbelt is (one of) the stated reasons why engineer doesn't have a weapon swap, and also why we have crappy MH weapons.

Toss Elixir S could get changed into "Does Nothing. 31 second cooldown" and people will still take Elixir S.

5 seconds 45s cool down base and 6 second duration 31s cool down traited has always been wildly out of line. That's elite skill levels of stealth right there.

Should really just go down to 2s base. It'd still be worth taking. You can still make plays like prevent stomps, disengage, get tons of value from your healing skill, take a burst on some one. Just not all of them in the span of one stealth.

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:Problem that "the only stealth" overshadowing every other "group stealth" utility by a long shot,

especially not even occupying an utility slot but a toolbelt

with ridiculously low cooldown, thats allow not only blast billion time turrets but also have an opening on you after that.

1. Toolbelts are determined by the utility slot. So in a sense, it is occupying a utility slot. Engi build design relies upon thinking about the toolbelt for each utility slot.
2. The toolbelt is (one of) the stated reasons why engineer doesn't have a weapon swap, and also why we have crappy MH weapons.

I'm not opposed to adjusting the numbers on throw elixir S. I think 3s is fair, since it is the only on-demand stealth for core engi/holo. I'm just saying that it is not a "free" utility skill as was suggested.

@Vancho.8750 said:I know the design fits the RP for engi but it doesn't feel that great on the receiver getting stunlocked to death and not able to even make a dent on them since they are quite bursty and versatile for how good their defense is. It is just good at everything for pvp it can rotate fast , it can teamfight it can duel and it can +1, that is really cool but it sometimes ends up better at something than some classes designed for the job.

The core design of engineer for several years has largely been victory through attrition. Holo is a variation on that theme, encouraging more damage instead of tankiness like scrapper.

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:Problem that "the only stealth" overshadowing every other "group stealth" utility by a long shot,

especially not even occupying an utility slot but a toolbelt

with ridiculously low cooldown, thats allow not only blast billion time turrets but also have an opening on you after that.

1. Toolbelts are determined by the utility slot. So in a sense, it is occupying a utility slot. When it comes to build design, engineers must pick their utility slots with toolbelt in mind.We both know its comes in a package with a nice breakstun-invul utility, hardly can tell "but im taking bad utility just for stealth" when other classes can proudly say so, hence why they arent taking them.

Except engineers don't have a choice -- when we pick our utility skills, we must consider the corresponding toolbelts. Ideally you want the toolbelt and utility skill to be valuable. This is why there are clear "winner" and "loser" utility skills. For example:

• Slick shoes has a good utility skill and a good toolbelt skill, making it a winner.
• Rocket boots is a fantastic utility skill, but its toolbelt is pretty weak, making it situational.
• Utility goggles is ok, but its toolbelt is pretty much garbage, making it a loser.

This is also why PvE engineer DPS builds have not varied much over the years. There are some clear DPS winners in utility skills/toolbelts that have never been topped (IE rifle turret toolbelt). But in PvP/WvW, non-dps utilities are actually worth considering.

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

2. The toolbelt is the stated reason why engineer doesn't have a weapon swap, and also why we have crappy MH weapons.I thought you said in other thread it was kits?Rifle is very good imo, pistol definitely feels kinda underwhelming (condi weapon, who would guess its sucks). Engineer feels like they lack weapon arsenal that they can choose from, having an extra core weapon would be useful to have choices. Probably they made it like that to force engis into kits but still kits feels pretty bad PvP.

I actually edited my post while you were responding to it, I meant it was one of the reasons we don't have weapon swap.

Rifle is good at control, but not damage in most situations. If you compare the different engineer weapons on a DPS meter, they're all objectively lower than most other classes' MH weapon DPS. During HoT days, this was a particular problem because projectile reflection/destruction was so rampant.

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@"praqtos.9035" said:Problem that "the only stealth" overshadowing every other "group stealth" utility by a long shot,

especially not even occupying an utility slot but a toolbelt

with ridiculously low cooldown, thats allow not only blast billion time turrets but also have an opening on you after that.

1. Toolbelts are determined by the utility slot. So in a sense, it is occupying a utility slot. Engi build design relies upon thinking about the toolbelt for each utility slot.
2. The toolbelt is (one of) the stated reasons why engineer doesn't have a weapon swap, and also why we have crappy MH weapons.

I like the idea. It makes Holosmith less slippery. A build with solid damage and sustain shouldn't on top of that have the option to reset a fight when pressured.

The reveal on PLB is a great idea too. To have any effect it needs to apply on skill activation though.

@praqtos.9035 said:

@"Vagrant.7206" said:Rifle is good at control, but not damage in most situations. If you compare the different engineer weapons on a DPS meter, they're all objectively lower than most other classes' MH weapon DPS. During HoT days, this was a particular problem because projectile reflection/destruction was so rampant.That what you are missing now is that holo can run around with 20-25 mights/quickness and other boons while most other classes cant, you know, cant ignore these autos that comes at me with quickness and forcing my evades unless I'm willing to die very fast. Also it has good burst in close range, cant say it does do damage.Your scrapper was main offender at "projectile reflection/destruction" iirc

20-25 might requires a build specialized to do that that (IE ECSU), or an enemy who is careless with their condi application (Specifically torment and weakness). Conversion builds can churn out 25 might if an enemy keeps applying torment or weakness -- that's the fault of their opponent though, engis don't choose which condition to convert. Otherwise might will generally hover between 5-15 depending on skills used and what procs:

• Corona burst can put out 5 might consistently
• Elixir U + HGH puts out another 2 might
• You could also use Elixir S for might, but that's kind of a waste of the skill. Throw elixir S is valid, so another 2 might there.
• Sigil of strength can add might periodically.
• Rune of Leadership can theoretically convert torment and weakness into 6 might, assuming it procs on those two.

Quickness is a different matter, that's a question of kinetic battery and elixir U.

There were other offenders with projectile reflection/destruction too, but yeah, scrapper was part of the problem. Engineer weapons have always been in an awkward spot with regards to projectiles, because all of our ranged weapons are projectiles, and the majority of our weapons are ranged.

Regardless, this is all irrelevant to the OP's idea.

@Vagrant.7206Isn't it supposed to be more in line with the other special mode elites like reaper or berserker and is it attrition if it can 100 to 0 in stunlock?Where does holo exactly fall over, what is the drawback ?

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:Rifle is good at control, but not damage in most situations. If you compare the different engineer weapons on a DPS meter, they're all objectively lower than most other classes' MH weapon DPS. During HoT days, this was a particular problem because projectile reflection/destruction was so rampant.That what you are missing now is that holo can run around with 20-25 mights/quickness and other boons while most other classes cant, you know, cant ignore these autos that comes at me with quickness and forcing my evades unless I'm willing to die very fast. Also it has good burst in close range, cant say it does do damage.Your scrapper was main offender at "projectile reflection/destruction" iirc

• Corona burst can put out 5 might consistently
• Elixir U + HGH puts out another 2 might
• You could also use Elixir S for might, but that's kind of a waste of the skill. Throw elixir S is valid, so another 2 might there.
• Sigil of strength can add might periodically.
• Rune of Leadership can theoretically convert torment and weakness into 6 might, assuming it procs on those two.

@Vancho.8750 said:@Vagrant.7206Isn't it supposed to be more in line with the other special mode elites like reaper or berserker and is it attrition if it can 100 to 0 in stunlock?Where does holo exactly fall over, what is the drawback ?

It falls over pretty hard against Hard and Soft CC's. Holo has to spend most of its time in close to mid-range combat in order to deal decent damage, and knocking it around or locking it in place can put it in a really bad way.

• The stability uptime on holo has been nerfed repeatedly for just this reason. Corona burst only provides 4 total seconds of stability, and Elixir U is on a fairly lengthy cooldown (plus only 2 stab). Hard CC (from revs, rangers, warriors, some mesmers, fear necros) can shut holo out.
• Soft CC's can seriously hinder holo's damage potential. Cripple, chill, weakness, and immobilize can drastically cut down on the damage that a holo can do, because it either can't reach the target, or hits like a wet noodle.
• Ideally you can do this before they've generated much heat. Holo hits its peak performance about 4-5 seconds into combat. Focusing on the holo or spiking it down at the beginning of combat is ridiculously effective.

This is why the spike builds always have Elixir S -- to get themselves out of a stunlock/focus scenario. Conversion builds generally have enough damage reduction to carry them through a short stunlock, but not a long one.

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:Rifle is good at control, but not damage in most situations. If you compare the different engineer weapons on a DPS meter, they're all objectively lower than most other classes' MH weapon DPS. During HoT days, this was a particular problem because projectile reflection/destruction was so rampant.That what you are missing now is that holo can run around with 20-25 mights/quickness and other boons while most other classes cant, you know, cant ignore these autos that comes at me with quickness and forcing my evades unless I'm willing to die very fast. Also it has good burst in close range, cant say it does do damage.Your scrapper was main offender at "projectile reflection/destruction" iirc

• Corona burst can put out 5 might consistently
• Elixir U + HGH puts out another 2 might
• You could also use Elixir S for might, but that's kind of a waste of the skill. Throw elixir S is valid, so another 2 might there.
• Sigil of strength can add might periodically.
• Rune of Leadership can theoretically convert torment and weakness into 6 might, assuming it procs on those two.

Yeah, and we came to the conclusion 20-25 might is largely the result of conversion. As I said before, most holos are generally only able to maintain 5-15 might at any given moment, sometimes with more, sometimes less.

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@"praqtos.9035" said:Problem that "the only stealth" overshadowing every other "group stealth" utility by a long shot,

especially not even occupying an utility slot but a toolbelt

with ridiculously low cooldown, thats allow not only blast billion time turrets but also have an opening on you after that.

1. Toolbelts are determined by the utility slot. So in a sense, it is occupying a utility slot. Engi build design relies upon thinking about the toolbelt for each utility slot.
2. The toolbelt is (one of) the stated reasons why engineer doesn't have a weapon swap, and also why we have crappy MH weapons.

If it made it into meta then yes...most people would take it

Nerf holo to oblivion.