Is it hard to get into raiding?(social experiment) — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Is it hard to get into raiding?(social experiment)

sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

I see lot of messages here on forums and other websites about how hard it is to get into raiding, i am long time raider my self but i wanted to check is it really that difficult to get your first raid kill.

So i hide my mini and my title, after that i posted an raid to LFG without commander tag. My LFG title was "need help with vale guardian boss."
It was little less than 10 minutes untill some1 with the tag joined, take command of the squad and posted a proper LFG. He also messaged me and explained the key mechanics of the encounter.

I guess every1 understood my point already, its not hard to get into raiding and this was an extreme example. If i would have posted an 0 LI "know mechanics run" with proper squad composition by my self, i would have Squad up even faster i think.

Oh final thing, it took 3 tries to kill VG with this group.

Edit: Two other experiments from today.
Posted slothasor run on LFG as an commander "w2 slothasor know mechanics X rolesX" Again i asked zero LI 3 ppl who joined pinged some stuff, other just Said hi and their role. This time Squad got filled super fast, run was very messy 1.5 laps on arena, but it was a kill after few tries.

Other experiment was when i posted an LFG " Raid noob looking for training." In very short time i got asked to join in 3 different raid training guilds. However i told all of them that im doing an experiment, and that i can however point few of my ingame friends to their guilds (which i did).

Edit: another Vale Guardian. I was the one who created the squad. LFG "VG need commander list of needed roles". Players joined one by one, some pinged stuff and some didn't, last role that we were missing was a cdps. Another new player joined and asked If its ok to join without KP, he told that he has seen videos and knows mechanics, every1 was ok with that. We failed at the start coz i was healing and had a dc. After i came Back we killed vale guardian on our second try, fight was pretty smooth. Some1 took command of the Squad, bs If i recall right.

I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

Comments

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Meanwhile it took me 3 months of constant tries every week, several days a week, several hours a day, to get that first kill.
    Basically, anecdotal experience is just that - it tells you nothing about what the average situation is.

    Ur right about this. However im going to continue with these kind of LFG posts and update results under this Post.
    And i would like to mention that most players say that its hard to get into raiding, haven't seen many posts about "hard to kil boss X".

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 30, 2019

    Well, the boss fight difficulty is one of the main factors why getting into raids might be difficult. If they were easy, pugging would be no problem.

    Notice also, that you are experienced, already know the mechanics, and play well. You were also alone. That means you were probably the only one "new" player in the group (so, in reality, there were no new players in the group). That's not the situation most players wanting to get into raids would be.

    Of course, there's also the point that at the time most of the "hard to get in" posts were made, the ratio of new players to veteran ones was different - now when you have an occasional new player and a lot of vets (and the vets have already farmed everything they wanted, so they no longer care about efficiency as much as before) , it's also probably easier than how it was when i was starting.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 30, 2019

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Well, the boss fight difficulty is one of the main factors why getting into raids might be difficult. If they were easy, pugging would be no problem.

    Notice also, that you are experienced, already know the mechanics, and play well. You were also alone. That means you were probably the only one "new" player in the group (so, in reality, there were no new players in the group). That's not the situation most players wanting to get into raids would be.

    Also, maybe today it's different, but originally most new players came not alone, but with friends. And it's much harder to get into raids in such a case.

    Raids aren't hard, most bosses are easy If you have right Squad composition and u have seen few videos about encounter.
    About other ppl skill lvl, i dont know qbout that, commander posted it into LFG without asking any LIs. Dps numbers were pretty low on some players so i assume that i wasn't the only "newish" guy on the group.

    But i do get your point, im just pointing out that exp players will join to help in low LI/0 LI groups all the time. I do that, My friends do that and many ppl that i know ingame does that.
    Im also a leader of the raid training guild so i feel pretty safe to say that you dont need to be good to clear EASIER bosses, short explanation or reading few guides is enough.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • TanksK.4795TanksK.4795 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 30, 2019

    When I started raiding, I joined a guild that had a training run as a chrono tank. It took 3 hrs to kill vg. So I guess it's not that hard. Still some people think 3 hrs is waste of time.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TanksK.4795 said:
    When I started raiding, I joined a guild that had a training run as a chrono tank. It took 3 hrs to kill vg. So I guess it's not that hard. Still some people think 3 hrs is waste of time.

    Yeah when i started raiding long ago my first VG kill took atleast 1 hour, perhaps even more. But during that time we were forced to use very different Squad composition than these days (double druid and other stupid stuff.) Now you have room to pick an off healer with alot more carry potential, ofc this is not for speed clears but for trainings. Having a tempest or scourge healer for example makes many of those bosses that used to be hard alot easier.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Being experienced certainly helped you there. It provided you with an understanding on how to approach such an endeavour as you already have a grasp on how commanders and veterans think. It told you not to display any entitlement, to be humble and most of all to stick to the truth about your position (all though, not without some irony in your case).
    In short, you already had and will continue to have a much easier time putting yourself in a position where people are willing to help you in this game. On the other hand, players who have close to zero experience with raiding in any MMORPG, let alone GW2, are usually the ones who are struggling the most with getting into raiding. It is certainly far from impossible for them but there are hurdles they have to overcome. This also mirrors my experience with running training raids and the vast variety of player mindsets you get during those runs.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • phokus.8934phokus.8934 Member ✭✭✭✭

    NA raiding scene is a mess compared to EU. I frequent the LFG for raids and it’s littered with sellers and groups looking for insanely high LI for bosses like VG.

    There are some instances where you’ll find a group that is “open” but after a wipe or two most people dip out.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Meanwhile it took me 3 months of constant tries every week, several days a week, several hours a day, to get that first kill.
    Basically, anecdotal experience is just that - it tells you nothing about what the average situation is.

    Added two more experiments to the Post.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Xervite.5493Xervite.5493 Member ✭✭

    From my experience I have learnt that its not worth the effort or time to look for a raid training squad, squads fail quite often and people start raging. If that wasn't enough I'm yet to ever find a training squad/raid run. (2k hours game time) Yep tried lfg, discord and those so called websites with applications. Nada everywhere its dead or the requirements are "show kp". So at this point I'm just waiting for raids to get a solo mode or some drastic change.

  • @Xervite.5493 said:
    If that wasn't enough I'm yet to ever find a training squad/raid run. (2k hours game time) Yep tried lfg, discord and those so called websites with applications. Nada everywhere its dead or the requirements are "show kp". So at this point I'm just waiting for raids to get a solo mode or some drastic change.

    https://snowcrows.com/raids/training/

    idk what you were searching for but typing "guild wars 2 raid training" in google gave me snowcrows and 2 of the 3 listed training guilds on the snowcrows site as top results.

  • Westenev.5289Westenev.5289 Member ✭✭✭✭

    New experiment: Try not dodging a few VG portals, die one or two times while "improving" and see how quickly pugs quit.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Westenev.5289 said:
    New experiment: Try not dodging a few VG portals, die one or two times while "improving" and see how quickly pugs quit.

    Never seen pugs leaving If some1 fails few blues every now and then (no matter was is it 0LI or 500LI group). Maybe im just lucky.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • It's much easier to gather whole squad with no (or very low) requirements. I couldn't find anyone for my "200LI+" squad. 150 and 75 failed too. I decided to put "training - know mechanics" and my squad filled quickly... with experienced players.
    I don't know how it works.

    Commander, to ME!

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Antycypator.9874 said:
    It's much easier to gather whole squad with no (or very low) requirements. I couldn't find anyone for my "200LI+" squad. 150 and 75 failed too. I decided to put "training - know mechanics" and my squad filled quickly... with experienced players.
    I don't know how it works.

    Yeah it is. And my point isn't Even prove that low LI squads can kill bosses(they can), but instead show ppl that it is really easy to get into raiding. Players should just try to create a Squad by them selfs If lfg is lacking no LI squads.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Lexi.1398Lexi.1398 Member ✭✭✭

    @Antycypator.9874 said:
    It's much easier to gather whole squad with no (or very low) requirements. I couldn't find anyone for my "200LI+" squad. 150 and 75 failed too. I decided to put "training - know mechanics" and my squad filled quickly... with experienced players.
    I don't know how it works.

    I do similar for fractals even though i'm already comfy with them (fractal progression type lfgs), for me personally, if i see a kp requirement then i know people are going to get on my noggin if i fail a mechanic a few times (and are a bit more likely to be frustrated with my average dps). I'm bound to hit the wrong keys, not notice something sometimes and mess up (same is true for all exp peoples), so being phrased around training means i can chill because i can generally assume the attitudes of most peoples are similar. While its unlikely for bosses im experienced at that i will mess up, im perosnally okay with wiping a couple times with a nice group rather than spending an hour or so of my life being sad with grumpy peoples.

  • Kahlan.7249Kahlan.7249 Member ✭✭
    edited July 30, 2019

    wow ScIEnce :P truly remarkable

    i meaan, depends what you consider "get into raiding"
    is getting one VG kill = get into raiding? if so then you could conclude, it's not that hard

    but you do have to look and be willing to use resources since i mean, you do need to find 9 other people + have some of them fill specialized roles + have some of them know mechanics already. basically, for your first kill you'll definitely need to be carried, and you need to find people to do the carrying.

    and maybe it's not that hard for most people, but for some others, imo the gate is being willing to ask or knowing where to look for help (LFG, RA in discord, training guilds etc) more than anything else.

    you knew where to look for help (in this case, LFG as one avenue) and that meant you already had the hardest part covered imo haha.


    I.
    PERSONAL ANECDOTE - totally not science either, but, maybe something most people don't think about? since i rarely see this kind of thing mentioned here. and my friend and i who i am going to talk about are mostly likely far outliers, but i do feel like there is an unspoken minority like this. i wish there was a "read more" thing on this forum, because this is going to honestly be quite obnoxious and long and it also doesn't prove anything because not science either lol.

    in my experience, it's something that's quite difficult to get the snowball rolling in - the initial step/first raid opportunity, and after that it gets so much easier, especially if (and once) you actually know people who are already into raiding. i hate this word because it's not really CONNECTIONS connections, it's frans, but it's the best word i can think of in this context.

    using an example, also fair warning, this is gonna sound like "LMAO wow so this kitten decides to write her autobiography, which is NOT SCIENCE EITHER", but i started playing this game a year ago since my real life friends were, and one of them has a lot of society anxiety too (to the point of not being able to go to the grocery store alone etc).

    in her first month of playing, she looked up class guides and read about the meta and was like "hmm, CHRONO SEEMS GOOD, they'll never nerf it", and since she had a mesmer and enjoyed it already, she geared it and practiced whatever was on SC for the rota for it at the time, because her end goal was to have a class that was viable for every raid ever.

    we played this game for MONTHS without talking to anyone, because what is socializing??? and she stopped playing about half a year ago because she had to go to England for exchange and got busy with real life.

    in all that time, we never did anything outside of t1 fractals, and only because we did them with our real life friends.


    II.
    about 6 months ago, i started pugging my t1 fractals. i asked her to join, but she never did.

    AND LITERALLY THE ONLY REASON - okay, that's a fallacy, that is literally a fallacy LOL. but okay, the reason i decided to start pugging fractals when i did was because... SO GET THIS, our other real life friend, a guy named michael, started pugging his t1 fracs by himself because he wanted to get his dailies done and make gold.

    and we were like "waow so brave what a brave boi". this was about the time that siren's came out, since i remember he was like "oh today we did this fractal that was really hard" and i was like "which one?" and he was like "idk, it had like, throwing treasure on the pirate ship". i had never done siren's before though, so i didn't know what he meant at the time.

    one day after pugging his t1s, michael told us "oh mah gawd so this one guy gave us ALL 50g after cliffside, and was like thank you SOOOO much".

    i was like "50g to EACH of you??" and he was like YEAAH LMAO.

    and okay, i didn't + don't know much about the meta or what was good for what, not that it really matters in this context anyway, but i knew my friend was playing on his necro with newly boosted soldier's gear. when he had started pugging my chrono friend and i were like "uhh is that really good LOL you'll be doing no dmg", and he was like "lol idc if i get carried, plus i'm working on my zerker's gear rn" (he was slowly replacing it piece by piece).

    and honestly? that is totally a fine and good and reasonable approach, to get into pugging and fractals and whatnot.

    IT WAS LITERALLY THE NEXT DAY that i decided to pug my t1 fracs, LOL. because i was secretly hoping someone would pay me 50g. because i realized that it didn't matter what you brought and that people probably would not be so judgmental if you weren't perfect or didn't know anything or whatever.

    --
    III.
    to put things in context, i always really wanted to try out higher tier fractals and raids and stuff, but i had literally made Aurora before i ever did anything higher than a t1 fractal, since it felt less gated to me.

    sometime after pugging my way to t4, i made a friend in this game (who i got closer to via another friend, who i had gotten closer to via fractals) and she was quite new too. she did her first raid one day, and then a few weeks later she invited me to a raid because her friends invited her to a training one and said it was okay if someone who didn't know anything like me joined.

    and y'know??? like it took SO LONG for that initial first one, because unless you reach out yourself, the opportunity won't just fall into your lap (which i don't think is really a problem or part of the game design that needs to be fixed), but yeah.

    plus w5/6 are a lot more gated than the other ones/harder to find trainings for/to get experience in, which is understandable ofc, but just saying that "get into raiding" is a really broad/vague term

    edit: lots of changes in phrasing x__x for readability purposes
    hohoho i'm sure a rambler LMAO and i realize no1 currs

    mai trin farm 2k19, the place to be--- sparky skell alex radomir ghastly lisa frank qante mercy bacon cat aj nay ++ and yours truly, me :')

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kahlan.7249 said:
    wow ScIEnce :P truly remarkable

    i meaan, depends what you consider "get into raiding"
    is getting one VG kill = get into raiding? if so then you could conclude, it's not that hard

    but you do have to look and be willing to use resources since i mean, you do need to find 9 other people + have some of them fill specialized roles + know mechanics already, and for your first kill you'll def need to be carried.

    and maybe it's not that hard to ask for that or find that for most people, but for some others, imo the gate is being willing to ask or to look for help, more than anything else.

    you knew where to look for help (in this case, lfg as one avenue) and that meant you already had the hardest part covered imo.

    PERSONAL ANECDOTE - totally not science either, but, maybe something other people don't think about? or perhaps this only applies to the minority. i wish there was a "read more" thing on this forum, because this is going to honestly be quite obnoxious and long and it also doesn't prove anything because not science either lol.

    i think it's something that's quite difficult to get the snowball rolling - the initial step/first raid experience, and after that it gets easier to get experience in, and so so much easier if you actually know people who are already into raiding. i hate this word because it's not really CONNECTIONS connections, it's frans, but i suppose it does make sense in this context.

    maybe we are the outliers, but like... using an example, LMAO this is gonna sound like "wow so this kitten decides to write her autobiography, which is NOT SCIENCE EITHER" but i started playing this game a year ago since my real life friends were, and one of them has a lot of society anxiety (to the point of like, not being willing to go to the grocery store alone etc), and she looked up guides on classes and read about the meta and she was like "hmm, CHRONO SEEMS GOOD", and since she had already tried the class out and enjoyed it, she geared it and then practiced whatever was on SC for the rota for it at the time, bc her end goal was to have a class that was viable for every raid.

    and we played this game for MONTHS without talking to anyone, because what is socializing??? and she stopped playing about half a year ago because she had to go to england for exchange and got busy with real life.

    in all that time, we never did anything outside of t1 fractals, and only because we did them with our real life friends, because we were too scared to pug l o l.

    about 6 months ago, i started pugging my t1 fractals. i asked her to join, but she never did because she was too scared to.

    AND LITERALLY THE ONLY REASON - okay, that's a fallacy, that is literally a fallacy LOL. but okay, the reason i decided to start pugging fractals when i did was because... get this, our real life friend, a dude named michael, started pugging his t1 fracs by himself because he wanted to work his way up and to make gold. and we were like "woaw so brave what a brave boi". this was about the time that siren's came out, since i remember he was like "oh today we did fractal that was really hard" and i was like "which one?" and he was like "idk, it had like, throwing treasure on the pirate ship". i had never done siren's before so i didn't know what he meant at the time.

    and then one day after pugging his t1s, michael told us "oh mah gawd so this one guy gave us ALL 50g after cliffside, and was like thank you SOOOO much"and i was like "50g to EACH of you??" and he was like YEAAH LOL. and okay, i didn't + don't know much about the meta or whatever, not that it really matters anyway, but i knew my friend was playing on his necro with newly boosted soldier's gear LOL. when he started pugging my chrono friend and i were like "uhh is that really good LOL deFeNSivE sTAtS", and he was like lol idc if i get carried, plus i'm working on my zerker's gear rn (he was slowly replacing it piece by piece).

    and honestly? that is totally a fine and wonderful and reasonable approach, to get into pugging and fractals and whatnot.

    IT WAS LITERALLY THE NEXT DAY that i decided to pug my t1 fracs, LOL. because i was secretly hoping someone would pay me 50g. because i realized that it didn't matter and that people probably would not be so judgmental if you weren't perfect or didn't know anything or whatever.

    to put things in context, i really wanted to try out higher tier fractals and to try out raids and stuff, but i had made aurora before it in my time of playing, since it felt less gated by social things and you didn't really need to know anyone.

    and sometime after pugging my way to t4, i made a friend in this game (who i got closer to via fractals) and she was quite new too, and she did her first raid one day, and then a few weeks later she invited me to a raid because her friends invited her to some and said it was ok if someone new like me joined.

    and y'know??? like it took SO LONG for that initial first one, because unless you reach out yourself, the opportunity won't just fall into your lap (which i don't think is really a problem/game design that needs to be fixed), but yeah.

    plus w5/6 are a lot more gated than the other ones/harder to find trainings for/to get experience in, which is understandable ofc given a lot of factors, but just "get into raiding" is a really broad/vague term

    Yeah you are right. But however its still possible and even pretty simple to start raiding without any raid experience while only using LFG. There isn't any gates that block you away from raid content.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Magnus Godrik.5841Magnus Godrik.5841 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Raids are extremely easy with a great leader and coms. You can do extremely well if people are listening to a thorough explanation while playing. This doesnt work if the people joining havent practiced thier role to an adequate level. You dont have to be pro but having the right gear and practice in your rotation will lead to victory. Teapot made this point a reality when he trained 9 noobs and got most of the raid boss kills. A willingness to not learn is usually a downfall of the player.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There are also twitch streamers who train people regularly. There’s one doing W4 training, minus Deimos, tonight.

  • The trick is just to watch a video on the boss you are going after and to read a guide, like on Dulfy.

    Problem solved.

    Read a Xera guide the other day, before i joined a training run with mostly pugs.
    Never did Xera before in my life.

    In reality i barely even needed the training aftwerwards anymore, cause the Guide on Dulfy already told me everything i needed to know.

    Our group didnt get the kill in the end, but I personally pretty much aced it to the point that an experienced player that joined our training to help asked me if i wanted to come on their next Xera kill, since i had the mechanics and the DPS already down enough, to move on from training.

    So even though i do t4 Fractals almost every day, as a complete Raid newbie, its not hard to actually get into it at all. Just do some preparation and things end up going your way.

  • Raizel.8175Raizel.8175 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I don't really think that doing VG once is the same as "getting into raiding". VG is one of the easiest and especially most intuitive raid-bosses due to the little pre-event where you already learn the mechanics of the encounter.

  • The one to Rule.2593The one to Rule.2593 Member ✭✭
    edited August 1, 2019

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Meanwhile it took me 3 months of constant tries every week, several days a week, several hours a day, to get that first kill.
    Basically, anecdotal experience is just that - it tells you nothing about what the average situation is.

    So recently I've done the same on my alt account. It has 1k AP, Had no LI or kp whatsoever. But I did have a proper build and proper gear. I literally cleared all hOT wings on it in a day. I have no clue how it took you 3 months.

    The point im making here is it is more important to know your build and class and be able to play it well. If you join as a dps but pull less than 10k chances are you'll get kicked. I find most people with this issue haven't spent any time practicing their rotations or are improperly geared and expect to get carried.

    how most of us got started was just getting a few friends together and throwing ourselves at the bosses sometimes for weeks until we learned. eventually things just start to click. Things go much smoother when you take the initiative, make your own group and learn together. It's more rewarding that way anyway. literally if you have no friends all you have to do is post in the lfg that you are making a new team, make a new static. Your life will be less stressful.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @The one to Rule.2593 said:
    how most of us got started was just getting a few friends together and throwing ourselves at the bosses sometimes for weeks until we learned. eventually things just start to click. Things go much smoother when you take the initiative, make your own group and learn together.

    It's exactly because we did it that way that it took us 3 months.
    Of course, if you can find yourself 9 veterans willing to help you out, it can be done way, way faster. But it just shifts the difficulty from ingame to social.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @The one to Rule.2593 said:
    how most of us got started was just getting a few friends together and throwing ourselves at the bosses sometimes for weeks until we learned. eventually things just start to click. Things go much smoother when you take the initiative, make your own group and learn together.

    It's exactly because we did it that way that it took us 3 months.
    Of course, if you can find yourself 9 veterans willing to help you out, it can be done way, way faster. But it just shifts the difficulty from ingame to social.

    We all had to slog through a learning phase, there's no getting around that if you want to eventually be competent at the bosses instead of just doing dps and putting mechanics on other people. That will work for a time, but eventually it's best to learn yourself.
    When I first started and killed vale guardian for the first time after a few weeks of trying to get it right, gorseval was a giant wall for me because i didn't know how to do a proper rotation, nothing else in the game at that point really forced me to push myself to get better.

    Raids are supposed to make people push themselves and grow as players. It's not about getting carried, it's about not needing to be.

    Yes there are mechanics that will take some time to nail down, and as pointed out above, there are various training discords and guilds all you have to do is look. But it comes down to how you like to spend your time. If you want to improve yourself, you'll do it, if not, then raids just maybe aren't for you.

  • skarpak.8594skarpak.8594 Member ✭✭
    edited August 1, 2019

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @The one to Rule.2593 said:
    how most of us got started was just getting a few friends together and throwing ourselves at the bosses sometimes for weeks until we learned. eventually things just start to click. Things go much smoother when you take the initiative, make your own group and learn together.

    It's exactly because we did it that way that it took us 3 months.
    Of course, if you can find yourself 9 veterans willing to help you out, it can be done way, way faster. But it just shifts the difficulty from ingame to social.

    it already depends with which mentality you go on this. i cleared vg & gorseval within the first week after raid wing 1 release and fullclear + title in the next week. with a bunch of pugs and we just formed a static since everyone was somewhat "good". the thing is, no one there was a "snowflake" and changed builds on notice.
    we had a guardian tank, 3 condi players with sinister gear and the rest was just running berserkers apart from two magis druids. chrono? we didn't even know what a chrono was. but we had 2 might stacking warriors, so this was basically covered.

    many of those came from wvw with 0 pve knowledge, but they already had the mentality to change gear/build on notice from wvw. since i was always rather in dungeons, it was for me the norm to play with best dps gear and not some random stuff just because.

    in the end we just discussed a bit the strategy, who kicks seekers away and who goes greens. done. killtime with 1 min left or so after 2 days of trying (~5h in the evening) for vg. gorseval was a bit harder to meet the dps check, but we made it anyway at some point. sabetha was rather like vg, highly mechanical, so we got that also down kinda quick.

    i really do not know what new people these days do. they have all the guides and knowledge and still need that long in a completly new group? even golem is there now, we did not have that back in time. not even dps meter (they existed, but mostly not used).

  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I’ve had mixed experiences, totaling out to a negative feeling surrounding trying to get into raids. But I want legendary armor with uniquely legendary skins so badly that every few months I try again (pls anet generalized PvE armor set. Or fractals). I’ve had nice groups that have nothing to say to me and we just do the boss, usually successful after a few tries (I’ve killed 13 bosses in all this time). And I’ve had fun on release days failing at first encounters. I find release days are most of my best experiences because it’s easier to find the nice people who aren’t judging or instantly kicking me. But I’ve had many bad times where I get instantly kicked - sometimes they refuse to even give a reason and sometimes they say I’m not good enough. Which would be fine if I sucked and had joined an experienced quick run, but since I’m not incredibly experienced I don’t do that. They’re kicking me out of casual runs for not being a veteran. How do I learn if nobody gives me a chance, I feel? And then there’s the groups where I don’t get kicked right away but somebody is nonstop telling me to get better and telling me exactly what to do - for reference, when I join a raid, I’ve already equipped the optimal build and know the mechanics of the boss I’m fighting. It’s about time I try again. I’ll probably find nice people and get a kill or two, then have a few hours of rude people, then get turned away for a few months

    HARRY! DIDYA PUT YER NAME IN DA GOBLET OF FIYAH?!

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2, 2019

    @Fenom.9457 said:

    I’ve had mixed experiences, totaling out to a negative feeling surrounding trying to get into raids. But I want legendary armor with uniquely legendary skins so badly that every few months I try again (pls anet generalized PvE armor set. Or fractals). I’ve had nice groups that have nothing to say to me and we just do the boss, usually successful after a few tries (I’ve killed 13 bosses in all this time). And I’ve had fun on release days failing at first encounters. I find release days are most of my best experiences because it’s easier to find the nice people who aren’t judging or instantly kicking me. But I’ve had many bad times where I get instantly kicked - sometimes they refuse to even give a reason and sometimes they say I’m not good enough. Which would be fine if I sucked and had joined an experienced quick run, but since I’m not incredibly experienced I don’t do that. They’re kicking me out of casual runs for not being a veteran. How do I learn if nobody gives me a chance, I feel? And then there’s the groups where I don’t get kicked right away but somebody is nonstop telling me to get better and telling me exactly what to do - for reference, when I join a raid, I’ve already equipped the optimal build and know the mechanics of the boss I’m fighting. It’s about time I try again. I’ll probably find nice people and get a kill or two, then have a few hours of rude people, then get turned away for a few months

    Join a discord "training" guild (practically a LFG platform) or ask those 'nice' people you raided with if they are recruiting/schedule for raids or have you to fill the spot if they need people (win-win for both sides).

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fenom.9457 said:
    I’ve had mixed experiences, totaling out to a negative feeling surrounding trying to get into raids. But I want legendary armor with uniquely legendary skins so badly that every few months I try again (pls anet generalized PvE armor set. Or fractals). I’ve had nice groups that have nothing to say to me and we just do the boss, usually successful after a few tries (I’ve killed 13 bosses in all this time). And I’ve had fun on release days failing at first encounters. I find release days are most of my best experiences because it’s easier to find the nice people who aren’t judging or instantly kicking me. But I’ve had many bad times where I get instantly kicked - sometimes they refuse to even give a reason and sometimes they say I’m not good enough. Which would be fine if I sucked and had joined an experienced quick run, but since I’m not incredibly experienced I don’t do that. They’re kicking me out of casual runs for not being a veteran. How do I learn if nobody gives me a chance, I feel? And then there’s the groups where I don’t get kicked right away but somebody is nonstop telling me to get better and telling me exactly what to do - for reference, when I join a raid, I’ve already equipped the optimal build and know the mechanics of the boss I’m fighting. It’s about time I try again. I’ll probably find nice people and get a kill or two, then have a few hours of rude people, then get turned away for a few months

    If you are EU, our guild has room for you to get your Raid kills. :)

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • @Fenom.9457 said:
    I’ve had mixed experiences, totaling out to a negative feeling surrounding trying to get into raids. But I want legendary armor with uniquely legendary skins so badly that every few months I try again (pls anet generalized PvE armor set. Or fractals). I’ve had nice groups that have nothing to say to me and we just do the boss, usually successful after a few tries (I’ve killed 13 bosses in all this time). And I’ve had fun on release days failing at first encounters. I find release days are most of my best experiences because it’s easier to find the nice people who aren’t judging or instantly kicking me. But I’ve had many bad times where I get instantly kicked - sometimes they refuse to even give a reason and sometimes they say I’m not good enough. Which would be fine if I sucked and had joined an experienced quick run, but since I’m not incredibly experienced I don’t do that. They’re kicking me out of casual runs for not being a veteran. How do I learn if nobody gives me a chance, I feel? And then there’s the groups where I don’t get kicked right away but somebody is nonstop telling me to get better and telling me exactly what to do - for reference, when I join a raid, I’ve already equipped the optimal build and know the mechanics of the boss I’m fighting. It’s about time I try again. I’ll probably find nice people and get a kill or two, then have a few hours of rude people, then get turned away for a few months

    I mean this usually comes when people don't know the ins and outs of their class as well as they think they do. You can be a druid and just heal and you'll still be doing a bad job because you also have to focus on keeping up the groups might stacks.

    You can be a dps but if you don't know when to use your skills or why you use them then chances are you'll be low dps. For instance when I was learning reaper i didn't know that you are supposed to use your ticking damage skills like GS4 and 5 and well of suffering Before going into shroud. since when you're in shroud you proc the soul barbs trait and do 10% more damage. this applies to those abilities above as well.

    If you are a chrono but have bad boon uptime it affects the entire team and is a drag on the team.

    I can go on, but I think you get the point. It's important to know the ins and outs of your class before going into a raid.

  • @Raizel.8175 said:
    I don't really think that doing VG once is the same as "getting into raiding". VG is one of the easiest and especially most intuitive raid-bosses due to the little pre-event where you already learn the mechanics of the encounter.

    I don't think VG is one of the easiest bosses. VG has many mechanics (teleports, greens, seekers, split - one of the lesser guardians is vulnerable only to condi, there are orbs damaging players, floor is also deathly). These things cannot be ignored (exept greens, but it's easy to fail). More things to care = higher chance to fail.
    For comparison Samarog has only 4 different mechanics: CC every 10%, 2 encounters with lesser bosses, greens and players have to avoid waves. It is not too much. Failing mechanics at Samarog isn't that punishing.

    Commander, to ME!

  • Raizel.8175Raizel.8175 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Antycypator.9874 said:

    @Raizel.8175 said:
    I don't really think that doing VG once is the same as "getting into raiding". VG is one of the easiest and especially most intuitive raid-bosses due to the little pre-event where you already learn the mechanics of the encounter.

    I don't think VG is one of the easiest bosses. VG has many mechanics (teleports, greens, seekers, split - one of the lesser guardians is vulnerable only to condi, there are orbs damaging players, floor is also deathly). These things cannot be ignored (exept greens, but it's easy to fail). More things to care = higher chance to fail.
    For comparison Samarog has only 4 different mechanics: CC every 10%, 2 encounters with lesser bosses, greens and players have to avoid waves. It is not too much. Failing mechanics at Samarog isn't that punishing.

    I disagree. You already learn VGs mechanics in small doses during the pre-event whereas at Samarog, you can still kitten up if you don't know how the few mechanics he has work.

  • @Raizel.8175 said:

    @Antycypator.9874 said:

    @Raizel.8175 said:
    I don't really think that doing VG once is the same as "getting into raiding". VG is one of the easiest and especially most intuitive raid-bosses due to the little pre-event where you already learn the mechanics of the encounter.

    I don't think VG is one of the easiest bosses. VG has many mechanics (teleports, greens, seekers, split - one of the lesser guardians is vulnerable only to condi, there are orbs damaging players, floor is also deathly). These things cannot be ignored (exept greens, but it's easy to fail). More things to care = higher chance to fail.
    For comparison Samarog has only 4 different mechanics: CC every 10%, 2 encounters with lesser bosses, greens and players have to avoid waves. It is not too much. Failing mechanics at Samarog isn't that punishing.

    I disagree. You already learn VGs mechanics in small doses during the pre-event whereas at Samarog, you can still kitten up if you don't know how the few mechanics he has work.

    honestly VG is a good example of what people can expect getting into it for the first time though. escourt and wing 4 for trainings are too easy and too unrealistic

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭

    How fast would you find a W6 or even W5 run if you could only ping 30LI and W4 KPs for example? "Getting into raids" is very, very ambiguous and our personal social experiences cannot really be labeled as experiments (not that they are not valid either mind you - but they're only anecdotes). It's already profoundly different of an experience if you go from EU to NA, if you can or can't talk on discord, if you can slot specific times to play weekly or not, and so on.

    All in all it's not hard to get kills on individual bosses when you get to know how the social part of it works. You could even potentially get an easy build with little individual mechanics for most fights such as BS/Healscourge and score with some exp groups even with none or very little experience, just talking your way into it. But I guess from the answers in here we are assuming that "getting into raids" is less broad than this and actually means completing weekly clears and generally being able to find fit into all kinds of groups, and that is immensely harder than what you can get from solely going into LFG (to begin with you probably won't go as far and as fast without a guild, let alone without at least some discord groups).

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Meanwhile it took me 3 months of constant tries every week, several days a week, several hours a day, to get that first kill.
    Basically, anecdotal experience is just that - it tells you nothing about what the average situation is.

    Context is everything. Are we speaking about the last 3 months or back when raids were relatively new content?

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:
    How fast would you find a W6 or even W5 run if you could only ping 30LI and W4 KPs for example? "Getting into raids" is very, very ambiguous and our personal social experiences cannot really be labeled as experiments (not that they are not valid either mind you - but they're only anecdotes). It's already profoundly different of an experience if you go from EU to NA, if you can or can't talk on discord, if you can slot specific times to play weekly or not, and so on.

    All in all it's not hard to get kills on individual bosses when you get to know how the social part of it works. You could even potentially get an easy build with little individual mechanics for most fights such as BS/Healscourge and score with some exp groups even with none or very little experience, just talking your way into it. But I guess from the answers in here we are assuming that "getting into raids" is less broad than this and actually means completing weekly clears and generally being able to find fit into all kinds of groups, and that is immensely harder than what you can get from solely going into LFG (to begin with you probably won't go as far and as fast without a guild, let alone without at least some discord groups).

    To answer your question, you would find that really fast If you create your own Squad.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Meanwhile it took me 3 months of constant tries every week, several days a week, several hours a day, to get that first kill.
    Basically, anecdotal experience is just that - it tells you nothing about what the average situation is.

    Context is everything. Are we speaking about the last 3 months or back when raids were relatively new content?

    When we started, wing 4 was already in, but i think wing 5 wasn't yet.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Meanwhile it took me 3 months of constant tries every week, several days a week, several hours a day, to get that first kill.
    Basically, anecdotal experience is just that - it tells you nothing about what the average situation is.

    Context is everything. Are we speaking about the last 3 months or back when raids were relatively new content?

    When we started, wing 4 was already in, but i think wing 5 wasn't yet.

    Why it took you that long? Did u use proper squad composition? Like im leading training raids where im the only exp player and other 9 might have never raided before, it usually takes 10-30min for Squad like that to kill VG.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2019

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Meanwhile it took me 3 months of constant tries every week, several days a week, several hours a day, to get that first kill.
    Basically, anecdotal experience is just that - it tells you nothing about what the average situation is.

    Context is everything. Are we speaking about the last 3 months or back when raids were relatively new content?

    When we started, wing 4 was already in, but i think wing 5 wasn't yet.

    Why it took you that long? Did u use proper squad composition? Like im leading training raids where im the only exp player and other 9 might have never raided before, it usually takes 10-30min for Squad like that to kill VG.

    There was no exp player. All 10 players were new to any demanding group content. Of course, that also meant that noone has played a chrono or heal before, so those people had to learn this on the way. Noone has started at hardcore skill level either - all were semicasual, that up to that point were doing t4s, but only in mostly casual way. It was also the first time most of the players heard about things like group composition (or "build" and "rotation"). For example, when we started, we considered being able to do 10k dps on boss to be a mark of a really good skill. That of course means that everyone started with a class and/or build they were unfamilial with. That's the phase of learning that raiders completely ignore when making any "experiments", because it is assumed that the "new" player that wants to learn has already mastered all that and only needs to learn the fights. So, basically, that they aren't really new.

    For us, first 3 hours weren't enough for most players to even start seeing teleport circles. I started seeing them around third day or so, and it took me even more to be able to see them consistently. Greens were a great party wiper as well (remember, that was before overheal strat, and distorting them was a bad idea with fresh chronos).

    If you add to that the fact that trying over and over again and failing over and over again is a really mindcrushing experience, it's not really surprising that the group didn't remain consistent throughout all that, and kept shedding players, having to get new ones (and train them up again). Of the original group i think only 4 people remained till the end (and of the remaining slots, some changed several times over).

    All the other training attempts i participated went way easier, because in those we always made sure that at least half of the squad had to have prior experience, and all key roles were covered - new people always started as dps, preferebly with no special roles assigned. That saying, while there were people that learned really fast, there were also those that simply couldn't do it no matter how hard they tried. That is also something that any "experiments" ignore, because those experiments are being done by people that obviously could do it.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.