NERF. MANTRA. NOW.

Ok mirages had fun for a while already ; Keep there invincible reflect every 2 secs, I don't care, but Nerf this unfun mantra stun / lame / EZ spam skill.That's enough, we're sicked of it.

We want communication on pvp balance ASAP. Scrapper was one of the only ones that could handle this and you nerfed it to the ground.

So please, next balance DO IT, just DO IT.

Thank you.

Its good people can recognise problems but their solutions often completely miss the mark.

Stun, immob, insta, can't rupt, want me to find a solution ? You don't need to be a genius to nerf it properly

@ParadoX.3124 said:Ok mirages had fun for a while already ; Keep there invincible reflect every 2 secs, I don't care, but Nerf this unfun mantra stun / lame / EZ spam skill.That's enough, we're sicked of it.

We want communication on pvp balance ASAP. Scrapper was one of the only ones that could handle this and you nerfed it to the ground.

So please, next balance DO IT, just DO IT.

Thank you.

CI is not fun for both parties, too bad its one of the only good thing class has left for pvp.

@ParadoX.3124 said:Stun, immob, insta, can't rupt, want me to find a solution ? You don't need to be a genius to nerf it properly

Whats your solution then, since your OP didnt offer anything at all.

This is the trillionth "Nerf mirage" thread btw. Why don't you try to get this thread moved to Mesmer subforum?

@ParadoX.3124 said:Ok mirages had fun for a while already ; Keep there invincible reflect every 2 secs,Evasive Mirror has died patches ago.

but Nerf this unfun mantra stun / lame / EZ spam skill. That's enough, we're sicked of it.That mantra and trait combo was always there. I say remove immob from Chaotic Interruption all you want but revert most of axe and illusions nerfs. I don't understand why don't we have a melee mesmer outside sword. Of course, portal needs to be fixed too. It was fine since day one, what's with the sudden nerf?

We want communication on pvp balance ASAP. Scrapper was one of the only ones that could handle this and you nerfed it to the ground.Scrapper needed nerfs but it has been killed instead, I agree. Chronomancer, however, is worse than renegade now.

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@ParadoX.3124 said:Stun, immob, insta, can't rupt, want me to find a solution ? You don't need to be a genius to nerf it properly

Remove one of the three :Stun -> DazeImmo -> Frozen or crippleInsta cast -> Adding 1 sec cast

There you go, now it is balanced

@ParadoX.3124 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@ParadoX.3124 said:Stun, immob, insta, can't rupt, want me to find a solution ? You don't need to be a genius to nerf it properly

Sounds like you're trying to tackle some weird combination of Magic Bullet, MoD and CI combined into one skill. You shoudl make a more thought out post because "NERF. MANTRA. NOW" isn't helpful and it really isn't what you are complaining about. Out of all the things you have an issue with only 1 is actually a property of the mantra. A property which holds true for ALL mantra in the game as well as a whole bunch of other skills.

Again this goes back to my point. People often know the problem but are often too emotionally charged to actually be subjective about any kind of solution.

My 2 cents

Mantras don't have counterplay as is.Mantra of pain should be a projectile and have an animation. Shouldn't have 12 stacks of might.Mantra of distraction should have a quick animation and a very short daze kind of like headshot on thief but not a projectile.CI shouldn't have an immob.Revert the signet of domination changes for mesmer wide daze and stun durations and put it into a trait somewhere.

I don't play mesmer and I'm biased take that as you will.

I run Domination instead of Chaos for Power Block. You also have stun on Diversion (which synergizes with MoD), boonstrip on shatters, and a ton of vulnerability spam for additional condition covering+damage boost. Not to mention you apply weakness from Power Block, another condition. If you're running this go Wizard Amulet for hybrid damage.

Protection from Chaos is okay IMO, Thieves keep boonstripping it off. Plus it doesn't last that long. I prefer Weakness spam as attacks hit for less. Plus the CDs for Staff aren't in need to be so short, it's perfectly fine without the trait.

@"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said:I run Domination instead of Chaos for Power Block. You also have stun on Diversion (which synergizes with MoD), boonstrip on shatters, and a ton of vulnerability spam for additional condition covering+damage boost. Not to mention you apply weakness from Power Block, another condition. If you're running this go Wizard Amulet for hybrid damage.

Protection from Chaos is okay IMO, Thieves keep boonstripping it off. Plus it doesn't last that long. I prefer Weakness spam as attacks hit for less. Plus the CDs for Staff aren't in need to be so short, it's perfectly fine without the trait.

Dont tell people about other builds geesh..Its been a good laugh reading most complaints

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@ParadoX.3124 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@ParadoX.3124 said:Stun, immob, insta, can't rupt, want me to find a solution ? You don't need to be a genius to nerf it properly

I don't believe lack of SUBjectiveness is the problem here^^

You could remove Mantra of Distraction from the game, and it would barely have an effect on the CI build. Plenty of mesmers run the build without it, and they still have Magic Bullet, Diversion, 2x Chaos Storm, etc. for interrupts. Mantra is just the symptom, not the disease.Chaotic Interruption should have it's Immobilize replaced by Cripple, or just remove the Immobilize alltogether. It would still be a strong trait, if a bit RNG-ish.

I just can say it again, killing Mantra of Distraction by giving it a cast time would kill the most skillbased playstyle (interrupt playstyle) a mesmer/ this game has. The problems are overperforming interrupt traits and not the Mantra which need to be instant to be a viable interrupt tool. Otherwsie you need to predict every move of opponents what isn't even possible in duels (you can predict heal use here and there and few other big skills in duels but thats it) in conquest teamfight it is impossible. The problem is CI adding an instant lock down to the mantra. And a lock down (hard cc like stun, knockdown, knockback... but also immob) should never be instant. With only a daze everything added with that mantra is dodgeable and with balanced traits like Powerblock it is no balance problem at all. Powermesmer isn't even viable atm. And with thieves becoming very popular again (aside from core s/p we now have tons of condithieves) it is even less viable. Lost Time is still a problem too, also when it doesn't get used because Anet deleted Powerchrono from the game in a very bad way. Lost Time turns Mantra of Distraction into the same braindead spammable range instant dmg mechanic from Mantra of Pain or fresh air. A mechanic that should not exist with that high dmg.

Another thing needs to be done, is giving Condimes more active ways of condi application and for that nerf the hell out of condi clone autoattacks and condi ambush attacks (staff, scepter, axe). The problem is not IH which is not a problem on Powerweapons, it is only a problem on condi weapons because of the core imbalance of clone attacks doing so much more condi dmg compared to power dmg what makes Condimes a very passive npc based playstyle. This imbalance already exist in core Mesmer where clone autoattacks do only like 1 power dmg but stack condis like crazy.

Still i miss the complain threads for Condithief a build that is even easier to play and at least as broken as ci Mirage. I also miss complain threads for Holos, Rangers, Fb and so on. I mean even core Necro got power creeped now. Instead nerfing dmg and sustain in every patch i read dmg increased from skill x in the first 2 sentences of the patch nodes...

We can just wait for Anet to delete Mirage in the same way they did with Chrono, not addressing the real problems at all just make it unplayable in general.

Btw where are the trade offs from other classes elite specs? I only remember one change to thief daredevil spec you could interpret as trade off with shorter steal range and all that. When will other classes get their elites deleted?

@Tycura.1982 said:My 2 cents

Mantras don't have counterplay as is.I don't play mesmer and I'm biased take that as you will.

Only true for Mantra of Pain. For Mantra of Distraction let me help you by quoting myself:

You have counterplay like disengage/ kiting out of range (having blink cd in mind), los, stabi, aegis, blinds, invuln, blocks during you can cast other stuff (Ele, Engi, Guard...), stealth and so on to cover skills you don't want to get interrupted. You also know when Mesmer just used one charge you have 4 seconds Mantra free time, or 12 secs after 2 uses, you also can bait Mantra uses by stowing bigger animations. A mesmer who needs to recharge the Mantra for 2,25 seconds is an easy target btw, just wait for that moment. Mantra of Distraction is in fact one of the least spammy and most reactive skills with way more counterplay than most other mesmer utilities (signet spam for example).If you have problems with a Mantra of Distraction using Mesmer (who is not using CI or Lost Time) it is a L2p issue 1000%.I hope that will help you. Being narrowed and biased will not help you to improve your gameplay. But knowing that you are biased is the first step so i have hope for you.

Bring stability/condi cleanse.

Problem solved.

@bravan.3876 said:I just can say it again, killing Mantra of Distraction by giving it a cast time would kill the most skillbased playstyle (interrupt playstyle) a mesmer/ this game has. The problems are overperforming interrupt traits and not the Mantra which need to be instant to be a viable interrupt tool. Otherwsie you need to predict every move of opponents what isn't even possible in duels (you can predict heal use here and there and few other big skills in duels but thats it) in conquest teamfight it is impossible.

This is basically the correct answer.

Interrupts being fast cast is not a problem. Plenty of other classes have it this way. Mantra is probably the closest thing to what old school mesmer design was supposed to be.

The issue is the overloaded traits that deal damage, apply condis, give boons, randomly apply more condis, remove boons, and basically drop a looney toons acme anvil on top of the other teams head whenever you score an interrupt. There comes a point when it stops being an interrupt and becomes an instant cast win button.

Nerf elites, not core! Oh wait it's mirage, nerf core, nerf core, nerf core!

@"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:Nerf elites, not core! Oh wait it's mirage, nerf core, nerf core, nerf core!

When the problems are lying in core traitlines you have to nerf core. Like CI.On a propaganda lvl i even would say delete chaos and inspiration traitline completely and 99% of all mesmer player wouldn't have enough skill for mesmer anymore (end of propaganda).

On a more serious node: Chaos and Inspiration are the most problematic traitlines on mesmer, they ever were. The traitlines which lower the skill ceiling and floor for the class remarkable. Every problematic mesmer build since game release always included one of these 2 traitlines or even both. No matter of elite specs we never had a problematic mesmer build without at least one of these 2 traitlines. The only exception is the duelling illusion condi mirage and that is mostly because of the general op design of condis and the problem that condi clones (staff, scepter, axe) have way to strong autoattacks and ambush attacks (high condistacks from npcs) compared to power weapons.

On a non-propaganda lvl i would ask to rework all defensive traitlines on all classes (like warrior defense traitline) into something more active and with higher opportunity costs in dmg. Passive facetank sustain should be reduced to a minimum and active sutain shouldn't be nearly perma spammable. And most important: Builds with high sustain and/ or resustain (like Holo has high of both) should not do high dmg (Holo is also a hard cc machine in add like wtf).

Saying never nerf core stuff is wrong, just as wrong as saying a build is not op or easy because it is "only" core. There are enough classes (and Mesmer is one of them) can make insanely braindead and strong core builds and only because of less mobility or utlity they are maybe less useful in conquest but that is a different story. You have to nerf the roots of the problems and when the problems are in core traitlines you have to nerf core.

@Shep.4026 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@ParadoX.3124 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@ParadoX.3124 said:Stun, immob, insta, can't rupt, want me to find a solution ? You don't need to be a genius to nerf it properly

True. My mind was going people are too subjective but my sentence required the use of the words objective.

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:Nerf elites, not core! Oh wait it's mirage, nerf core, nerf core, nerf core!

Exactly.Chaos is one of the best traitlines in this game because you can alternate between a lot of traits to suit your style.When chronomancer was a thing, it used chaos storm adept, staff master and BD.Mirage used to use manipulation, staff and BD. It now uses CS, staff and CI.I play inspiration signet core mesmer with CS, AA and BD. Some people go power core and use stealth trait instead.There are only two bad traits: middle adept and middle master.

All traitlines in all classes should be like this.

@bravan.3876 said:

@"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:Nerf elites, not core! Oh wait it's mirage, nerf core, nerf core, nerf core!

I agree that chaos and inspi are, let's say easy picks for starting players. Same with other professions traitlines, alchemy for holos, defense for war like you said, for example.I don't think CI needs a nerf, the trait is there for ages, it is easy counterable with stab.This trait become a problem now that it is meta, same with all the other mesmer traits that got nerfed, make no mistake these guys don't want balance, these guys are trying to delete mesmer from game, and they're doing a nice job at it, dueling has now one good trait, mirage 1 good trait, illusion 1 or 2 good traits in the entire traitline.As for the strong core mesmer I disagree, core mesmer is one of the worst if not the worst core profession and that is linked to what I said above mesmer traitlines have been gutted since pof.

As for the nerf elite not core has been the forum statement for all professions except mesmer, hence the joke.

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:Nerf elites, not core! Oh wait it's mirage, nerf core, nerf core, nerf core!

Ci always was a problem just no one noticed because it never got used. Just as no one will now complain about Lost Time anymore because Powerchrono will not be played, hence it is still an unbalanced trait. CI is op together with Mantra because it becomes an instant lock down. But Mantra needs to be just as it is now because otherwise it would be an useless interrupt tool, means all interrupt traits needs to be balanced around the interrupt tools. An instant range lock down should not exist. It will always be unbalanced. When interrupt rewards gets so strong that random spamming an instant range skill and hope for a lucky autoattack interrupt is enough it will never be balanced either.

@bravan.3876 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:Nerf elites, not core! Oh wait it's mirage, nerf core, nerf core, nerf core!

But that is a base mechanic problem. Like I said in some other thread, when you remove one form of management you can't expect a skillfull gameplay, this game is all about spam without consequences. So even if you can't accurately interrupt you're always rewarded for it.ANerf thought they were more clever than every other mmo developer, they shot themselves on the foot.

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:Nerf elites, not core! Oh wait it's mirage, nerf core, nerf core, nerf core!

But you can't justify some broken stuff with arguing that there is other broken stuff.

@bravan.3876 said:I just can say it again, killing Mantra of Distraction by giving it a cast time would kill the most skillbased playstyle (interrupt playstyle) a mesmer/ this game has. The problems are overperforming interrupt traits and not the Mantra which need to be instant to be a viable interrupt tool. Otherwsie you need to predict every move of opponents what isn't even possible in duels (you can predict heal use here and there and few other big skills in duels but thats it) in conquest teamfight it is impossible. The problem is CI adding an instant lock down to the mantra. And a lock down (hard cc like stun, knockdown, knockback... but also immob) should never be instant. With only a daze everything added with that mantra is dodgeable and with balanced traits like Powerblock it is no balance problem at all. Powermesmer isn't even viable atm. And with thieves becoming very popular again (aside from core s/p we now have tons of condithieves) it is even less viable. Lost Time is still a problem too, also when it doesn't get used because Anet deleted Powerchrono from the game in a very bad way. Lost Time turns Mantra of Distraction into the same braindead spammable range instant dmg mechanic from Mantra of Pain or fresh air. A mechanic that should not exist with that high dmg.

Another thing needs to be done, is giving Condimes more active ways of condi application and for that nerf the hell out of condi clone autoattacks and condi ambush attacks (staff, scepter, axe). The problem is not IH which is not a problem on Powerweapons, it is only a problem on condi weapons because of the core imbalance of clone attacks doing so much more condi dmg compared to power dmg what makes Condimes a very passive npc based playstyle. This imbalance already exist in core Mesmer where clone autoattacks do only like 1 power dmg but stack condis like crazy.

Still i miss the complain threads for Condithief a build that is even easier to play and at least as broken as ci Mirage. I also miss complain threads for Holos, Rangers, Fb and so on. I mean even core Necro got power creeped now. Instead nerfing dmg and sustain in every patch i read dmg increased from skill x in the first 2 sentences of the patch nodes...

We can just wait for Anet to delete Mirage in the same way they did with Chrono, not addressing the real problems at all just make it unplayable in general.

Btw where are the trade offs from other classes elite specs? I only remember one change to thief daredevil spec you could interpret as trade off with shorter steal range and all that. When will other classes get their elites deleted?

@Tycura.1982 said:My 2 cents

Mantras don't have counterplay as is.I don't play mesmer and I'm biased take that as you will.