The new PvP meta - whine till a class is deleted. — Guild Wars 2 Forums

The new PvP meta - whine till a class is deleted.

Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

So, this happened --

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/83741/chaotic-interruption-temporarily-disabled-in-pvp

Competitive is pretty much dead to me. Disable AN ENTIRE TRAIT for 3 months because it's too hard to just add an internal cooldown?

Which as I'm not interested in grinding in PvE, and there's no LS for a while, guess I am kinda done with the game for the most part for a quarter. Got a boss blitz event tonight with the guild alliance, assuming that can keep me interested for more than an hour, then guess I will come back for about 3 hours when LS5E1 hits.

How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

<13

Comments

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Interestingly in the announcement he mentioned one of the reasons for not being able to get this changed until the next balance update is because it would involve changes to multiple traits.

    I can't work out what that could be referring to aside from CI, unless the change they have in mind also requires supplementary changes to take into account knock on effects. Can't be anything on mirage line specifically as nothing interacts with CI, it's kind of standalone in application, same as mantra.

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • Ralkuth.1456Ralkuth.1456 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 3, 2019

    GW2 PvP has always been thrown into the hospice ever since it's not promoted anymore.
    It's maintenance mode unless something happens, which I would be hard pressed to hope for.

    It's ok though we'll just move on, either immediately or after a period of time.
    You can still play something like this if you like the Mirage playstyle: Staffless Illusions or just swap CI to Bountiful Illusions. Or go back to old Sage Axe.
    Stay if you like the class, or if you're a FOTM player looking for powerful builds, move onto other pastures like Holo or whatnot if you want to. There's no implication in there about what kind of person you are.

    Player of distinguishing mediocrity, carrying enemy team since 2012
    Seasons at Plat 1: 7, 17, 18
    Seasons hardstuck in Gold: 5
    "Multiclass implies you can actually play the class" - A Certain Twitch Royalty, addressing a stream title

  • Genesis.7864Genesis.7864 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 3, 2019

    So anet shot Chrono in the face in PvP and now mirage just got its knee caps blown off in PvP. What's the point of going Mesmer for anything any more? I vote to delete the profession, it's pretty useless now :)

    (kidding btw,, but it seriously needs an entire rework from the ground up)

  • Honestly we have no GM traits that's actually build defining now. Every build in mesmer plays the same.

    [RED] Crimson Sunspears...your small family guild since 2015.

  • Xaylin.1860Xaylin.1860 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't play very frequently at the moment so I might not have experienced the whole extend of what is going on in PvP. But I have used Sword + CI since Mirage came out. This is silly. If they at least only disabled it for Mirage. But for the whole class?

  • @Curunen.8729 said:
    /shrug Hope it reduces the whining and moves some fotm players on.

    Main thing to take away from this is it sadly seems like it just isn't possible within their process to make changes whenever they like - everything more than little fixes has to be extremely deliberate and put as part of the big patches only.

    It's difficult for me to understand why this has to be the case - would be nice if they could explain why they can't for example implement changes for one or two things every week or so, but whatever, I accept (read: resign myself to) this is how their process works.

    Edit - they should really delete pvp for good now, just focus on pve and wvw only. Can't believe Im saying this having loved pvp in the past (mostly pre hot). But reality is gw2 never going to be anything other than casual in terms of gameplay so really ought to give up trying to half heartedly keep any kind of dedicated "competitive" (lol) pvp going when it died a long time ago.

    One of the big reasons for the slow changes is the limitations in the game engine to make quick fixes

  • Lyndina.7984Lyndina.7984 Member ✭✭✭

    Wow. Thats....i can't even think about what this is. This developer has no idea to fix their game so disable the skills alltogether...

  • BadMed.3846BadMed.3846 Member ✭✭✭

    This is such a great news. Excellent work! This is not the first time a ridiculously OP trait has been blocked.

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 3, 2019

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    Interestingly in the announcement he mentioned one of the reasons for not being able to get this changed until the next balance update is because it would involve changes to multiple traits.

    I can't work out what that could be referring to aside from CI, unless the change they have in mind also requires supplementary changes to take into account knock on effects. Can't be anything on mirage line specifically as nothing interacts with CI, it's kind of standalone in application, same as mantra.

    Well it depends on how much faith you have.

    If you have a lot of faith it could mean they've identified that the build has a lot of issues like:
    Mirage cloak removing all downsides of cast times.
    Infinite horizon offering some crazy damage scaling.
    Ambush skills are kinda strong in a vacuum for little trade off (I know Pyro not when compared to something like holoforge) -These 3 have been problems in the past btw.
    Chaos storm on heal may be giving a tad more CC than needed.
    That CI might need the immob reducing to 1s but interrupt traits at their core are meant to be skillful.
    That maybe buffing Mantra of Distraction out of the wazoo since 3 months before HoT till now was a mistake.

    If you have no faith:
    Nerf CI into the floor, no boons, just chill or cripple or blind.
    Nerf Chaos storm on heal to be 1 pulse.
    Nerf Deceptive Evasion because clones.
    Nerf Staff trait because it's always picked.

    Pick your poison, I know what my money would be on.

    Edit: The shocking thing to me was seeing it referred to as "degenerate play". That's not the kind of professionalism I'd expect from a company, let alone a representative of the company that enabled this despite many warnings by their community for over 2 years that lowering cool downs was a bad idea.

    I think it's clear taking one of those options for granted given all the past evidence. Suppose there's always hope, but is highly unlikely. :/

    @SilentSam.1589 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    /shrug Hope it reduces the whining and moves some fotm players on.

    Main thing to take away from this is it sadly seems like it just isn't possible within their process to make changes whenever they like - everything more than little fixes has to be extremely deliberate and put as part of the big patches only.

    It's difficult for me to understand why this has to be the case - would be nice if they could explain why they can't for example implement changes for one or two things every week or so, but whatever, I accept (read: resign myself to) this is how their process works.

    Edit - they should really delete pvp for good now, just focus on pve and wvw only. Can't believe Im saying this having loved pvp in the past (mostly pre hot). But reality is gw2 never going to be anything other than casual in terms of gameplay so really ought to give up trying to half heartedly keep any kind of dedicated "competitive" (lol) pvp going when it died a long time ago.

    One of the big reasons for the slow changes is the limitations in the game engine to make quick fixes

    Would be nice to know why this is the case, if it is possible to be understood by us public/non-professionals.

    Eg if deciding Csplit now needed it's cooldowm lowered from 105 seconds to eg 75 seconds - wouldn't that just be a number change in a few places? Or is it something in the process of updating the game that puts restrictions on how often it can be done? Honestly trying to understand here.

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • Heartpains.7312Heartpains.7312 Member ✭✭✭

    While at it, can they also disable EM? xD

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Heartpains.7312 said:
    While at it, can they also disable EM? xD

    HAHAHAHA, yeah excellent point.

    Anet please also disable Elusive Mind for being a handicap - don't want to confuse new players taking it thinking it might be beneficial when it's an objectively bad choice for all builds.

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • Does this mean i can finally play mesmer without ppl crying about my class?

  • Yoci.2481Yoci.2481 Member ✭✭

    Every time mesmer gets nerfed its because of stupid condi.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Pyroatheist.9031 said:
    This is hilarious and sad. I feel bad for both mesmers that still play PvP.

    Weird, I had 2-4 CI Mirages in every other P+ match. Guess they were just clones then, huh.

    It's a shame this happened so late in the season as this was probably the worst season I've ever played in due to this build.
    Maybe I won't quit playing this gamemode after all, but let's see how bad all the Holo's will be.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Pyroatheist.9031 said:
    This is hilarious and sad. I feel bad for both mesmers that still play PvP.

    Weird, I had 2-4 CI Mirages in every other P+ match. Guess they were just clones then, huh.

    It's a shame this happened so late in the season as this was probably the worst season I've ever played in due to this build.
    Maybe I won't quit playing this gamemode after all, but let's see how bad all the Holo's will be.

    and while i played i had 1-2 mesmers at best, and what I kept seeing was 3-4 thiefs or 3-4 holos, the moment i started tinkering with builds and dropped to gold then i saw alot of mirages, funny how this " carry class broken as shieeeeet " appears in gold and not the higher you go.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 3, 2019

    @Fashion Mage.3712 said:
    While they're at it, it would be great if they could just disable everything that I personally don't like playing against. Thanks.

    Being essentially permanently immobilized and dazed for 90% of all combat in a match should the Mirage focus you seems pretty objectively unfun, rather than a personal preference.

    But if you main this broken spec for too long maybe you forget that not everything can dodge while immobed etc., idk.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Pyroatheist.9031 said:
    This is hilarious and sad. I feel bad for both mesmers that still play PvP.

    Weird, I had 2-4 CI Mirages in every other P+ match. Guess they were just clones then, huh.

    It's a shame this happened so late in the season as this was probably the worst season I've ever played in due to this build.
    Maybe I won't quit playing this gamemode after all, but let's see how bad all the Holo's will be.

    and while i played i had 1-2 mesmers at best, and what I kept seeing was 3-4 thiefs or 3-4 holos, the moment i started tinkering with builds and dropped to gold then i saw alot of mirages, funny how this " carry class broken as shieeeeet " appears in gold and not the higher you go.

    I can only speak from personal experience, and I haven't been as low as gold in many seasons. But even in Plat 2, I would get matches where ppl would swap to triple Mirage on a team, including God's of PvP.
    So to me, it doesn't seem like it's just a low rank stomper.
    Although considering how incredibly easy it's to play compared to it's insane effectiveness as well as the demoralising effect it has, I would't be surprised if it's even more common in lower ranks.
    That doesn't exactly paint a more favourable picture on the spec though.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Jasher.6580Jasher.6580 Member ✭✭
    edited August 3, 2019

    @Genesis.7864 said:
    So anet shot Chrono in the face in PvP and now mirage just got its knee caps blown off in PvP. What's the point of going Mesmer for anything any more? I vote to delete the profession, it's pretty useless now :)

    (kidding btw,, but it seriously needs an entire rework from the ground up)

    To be fair Chrono deserved to get shot in the face. CI Mesmer however... while I agree that CI needed to be looked at, they were still countered by both Holo and Thieves.

    Oh also, they talk about the degenerate play but left Scourge, Holosmith, Staff Evade Thief, Condi Thief, Water Weaver and Fire Weaver alone. This is coming from someone who plays mostly Ele and Thief.

    The whole concept of Scourge is broken imho.

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    In the entire traitlines:
    Duelling - 1good trait
    Chaos - dead at pvp, 1 good trait in wvw
    Illusion - 1 good trait
    Dom - 2 or 3 good traits
    Inspi - meme traitline
    Mirage - 1 good trait
    Chrono - dead thanks to no ip

    Next on the lines - IH to end mirage once and for all.

    I reckon deceptive evasion also gonna get killed come October, along with removal of IP from mirage.

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • Fashion Mage.3712Fashion Mage.3712 Member ✭✭
    edited August 3, 2019

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Fashion Mage.3712 said:
    While they're at it, it would be great if they could just disable everything that I personally don't like playing against. Thanks.

    Being essentially permanently immobilized and dazed for 90% of all combat in a match should the Mirage focus you seems pretty objectively unfun, rather than a personal preference.

    But if you main this broken spec for too long maybe you forget that not everything can dodge while immobed etc., idk.

    I play guardian almost exclusively, so meh. I'm just less prone to exaggeration and overreacting.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fashion Mage.3712 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Fashion Mage.3712 said:
    While they're at it, it would be great if they could just disable everything that I personally don't like playing against. Thanks.

    Being essentially permanently immobilized and dazed for 90% of all combat in a match should the Mirage focus you seems pretty objectively unfun, rather than a personal preference.

    But if you main this broken spec for too long maybe you forget that not everything can dodge while immobed etc., idk.

    I play guardian almost exclusively, so meh. I'm just less prone to exaggeration and overreacting.

    So the one class with stunbreaking instant cast mass Stability and access to an instant cast stunbreaking total condition to boon conversion, as well as plenty other instant condi cleanse and stunbreaks in general.
    I.e. the only thing that might not as well walk away from the keyboard when meeting a CI Mirage.

    Good for you.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If this was true, then how come Soulbeast was left alone for the most part for this long? It's definitely not because there weren't enough people whining about it...

    Bite me.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    In the entire traitlines:
    Duelling - 1good trait
    Chaos - dead at pvp, 1 good trait in wvw
    Illusion - 1 good trait
    Dom - 2 or 3 good traits
    Inspi - meme traitline
    Mirage - 1 good trait
    Chrono - dead thanks to no ip

    Next on the lines - IH to end mirage once and for all.

    I reckon deceptive evasion also gonna get killed come October, along with removal of IP from mirage.

    Yeah, it will happen.
    Might as well play traitless.

    The degenerate

  • Heartpains.7312Heartpains.7312 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    In the entire traitlines:
    Duelling - 1good trait
    Chaos - dead at pvp, 1 good trait in wvw
    Illusion - 1 good trait
    Dom - 2 or 3 good traits
    Inspi - meme traitline
    Mirage - 1 good trait
    Chrono - dead thanks to no ip

    Next on the lines - IH to end mirage once and for all.

    I think they will start with "redesigning" shatters for mirage and they will make it so we need at least 1 illusion to shatter, of course the redesigned shatters are weaker =p

  • Heartpains.7312Heartpains.7312 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    I reckon deceptive evasion also gonna get killed come October, along with removal of IP from mirage.

    Yeah, it will happen.
    Might as well play traitless.

    No thank you, traitless is a buff if you consider EM, I would rather play without EM than have it xD

    They must force you to pick it, and then they will come up with "tradeoff for grandmaster traits"

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 3, 2019

    Realistically I'm willing to bet the following is going to happen on mirage next patch:

    • IP removal from mirage
    • weaker "shatters" as tradeoff for stronger ambushes (whether they buff player ambush significantly to make up for this is another thing)
    • F4 becomes Desert Distortion, and gets the 1s treatment similar to continuum split

    I believe mirage will sacrifice the ability to do big shatter burst (power or condi) through F1 and F2, making them more debuff or providing enhancement for a follow up ambush attack (like riddle of sand does, but maybe with power). This is because ambush being the unique mechanic compared with chrono/core so it must be incentivised compared with pure shatter being incentivised on core and I don't know what being incentivised on chrono.

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • primatos.5413primatos.5413 Member ✭✭✭

    rewrite makros and reroll teeef.. ez

  • Levetty.1279Levetty.1279 Member ✭✭✭

    The phrase 'Smiter's boon' gets thrown around a lot but this is literally Smiter's boon mk 2, they even used the same reasoning and claims about coming back to fix it. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    Interestingly in the announcement he mentioned one of the reasons for not being able to get this changed until the next balance update is because it would involve changes to multiple traits.

    I can't work out what that could be referring to aside from CI, unless the change they have in mind also requires supplementary changes to take into account knock on effects. Can't be anything on mirage line specifically as nothing interacts with CI, it's kind of standalone in application, same as mantra.

    Mirage trade offs that "Mesmer" players were asking for are coming and they are going to gut the class in every game mode.

  • Pyroatheist.9031Pyroatheist.9031 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Levetty.1279 said:
    The phrase 'Smiter's boon' gets thrown around a lot but this is literally Smiter's boon mk 2, they even used the same reasoning and claims about coming back to fix it. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

    Actually, they never claimed they'd come back and fix Smiter's Boon in GW1. The reasoning then was that they couldn't see any way it could be fixed and so they just wanted to remove it from competitive play altogether. They said that if they ever came up with a solution they might revisit it, but from what I recall at the time, they were fairly upfront that it would likely be permanent.

    Honestly, I think it would have been better if they'd boonsmited here as well: if they split the skill and made it effectively useless in PvP, at least it would show up in update notes. I heard that there'd been some major nerf applied to the CI mesmer, and my first port of call was to go to the update notes. It's not even a matter of "not everyone goes to the forums" - it's not even in the spot you'd expect to find it on the forums.

    To be fair, we only have the sacred word of the balance team that they'll somehow get around to implementing a comprehensive and quality solution to this skill.

    Realistically, we can expect them to take 3 months to slap it with a 10 second icd and also make MoD unusable in the same go, just for good measure.

    Ohey, I've got a signature

  • @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Levetty.1279 said:
    The phrase 'Smiter's boon' gets thrown around a lot but this is literally Smiter's boon mk 2, they even used the same reasoning and claims about coming back to fix it. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

    Actually, they never claimed they'd come back and fix Smiter's Boon in GW1. The reasoning then was that they couldn't see any way it could be fixed and so they just wanted to remove it from competitive play altogether. They said that if they ever came up with a solution they might revisit it, but from what I recall at the time, they were fairly upfront that it would likely be permanent.

    Honestly, I think it would have been better if they'd boonsmited here as well: if they split the skill and made it effectively useless in PvP, at least it would show up in update notes. I heard that there'd been some major nerf applied to the CI mesmer, and my first port of call was to go to the update notes. It's not even a matter of "not everyone goes to the forums" - it's not even in the spot you'd expect to find it on the forums.

    To be fair, we only have the sacred word of the balance team that they'll somehow get around to implementing a comprehensive and quality solution to this skill.

    Realistically, we can expect them to take 3 months to slap it with a 10 second icd and also make MoD unusable in the same go, just for good measure.

    That and add CD to IH just so there's "drawback" on mirage?

    [RED] Crimson Sunspears...your small family guild since 2015.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think in game design terms here, "degenerate" isn't intended as an insult to the players that use it, but an observation about the versatility of the build. A "degenerate" build is, essentially, one that can do anything. A Smiter's Boon build in its heyday had good armour-piercing damage, could remove hexes and conditions with a relatively low cooldown, and had good enough heals to be a decent healer at the same time, thanks to Smiter's Boon. You could have a party of all boonsmite monks and do fairly well.

    I think that's also what they're referring to here. A well-played CI mesmer had it all - good damage, oppressive CC, high mobility, and hard to kill when played well. If matchmaking and tournament rules don't prevent it, you could probably make a team of CI mesmers and do fairly well.

    That's probably what they mean by "degenerate" - it's intended in the meaning of "unspecialised" rather than the typical interpretation. Except in the "good at everything" form of unspecialised rather than the "jack of all trades, master of none" meaning.

  • Delofasht.4231Delofasht.4231 Member ✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    I think in game design terms here, "degenerate" isn't intended as an insult to the players that use it, but an observation about the versatility of the build...

    The issue I take here is that CI being called “degenerate” in the idea of “all around too good at everything” is that every profession has one of those builds right now. CI is not over-performing against them, so this idea and reasoning that the players have come up with on why the devs are doing something seems off to me.

    Mesmer is just broken because of Clones requiring shatters to be extremely strong at close range, because they can fail to reach or be destroyed on route to the target and their damage negated (or any other effects applied by a shatter) when used from range. Every other problem is simply a symptom of this issue, either to resolve it by closing or creating gaps at instant speed, or by removing response time (and thus counterplay). Solutions have been suggested, but sadly, as is often the case, they will probably only half implement such suggestions and will end up creating an entirely new set of problems. It is funny to think that after 7 years, they still have not come to the realization of this issue, in spite of warnings regarding the design in the beta stage of the game.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 4, 2019

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    I used to play CI although in a power build, freaking stab counters the entire build!
    You know how "degenerate" the entire community is when they prefer to come to forums getting traits nerfed instead of changing one or two skills on their build.

    Ya know, strangely enough, Zeromis ran dom/dueling marauders power mes and still had enough of a brain + boon strip without arcane thievery/annulment to beat bunker boonbeast at its prime in a 1v1 when it took siamoth for plasma and dolyak stance.

    "You know how 'degenerate' the entire mesmer community is when they prefer to come to forums getting traits nerfed instead of changing one or two skills on their build."

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    I think in game design terms here, "degenerate" isn't intended as an insult to the players that use it, but an observation about the versatility of the build. A "degenerate" build is, essentially, one that can do anything. A Smiter's Boon build in its heyday had good armour-piercing damage, could remove hexes and conditions with a relatively low cooldown, and had good enough heals to be a decent healer at the same time, thanks to Smiter's Boon. You could have a party of all boonsmite monks and do fairly well.

    I think that's also what they're referring to here. A well-played CI mesmer had it all - good damage, oppressive CC, high mobility, and hard to kill when played well. If matchmaking and tournament rules don't prevent it, you could probably make a team of CI mesmers and do fairly well.

    That's probably what they mean by "degenerate" - it's intended in the meaning of "unspecialised" rather than the typical interpretation. Except in the "good at everything" form of unspecialised rather than the "jack of all trades, master of none" meaning.

    I took "degenerate" as braindead.
    Either way they should be careful at choosing words, if they wrote like you did "it was too good at everything yadda yadda" it would be ok, but instead they took the offensive route.
    They're supposed to be professionals.

    It's probably not the best choice of words, no, but it is one they've used before. The precedent is that "degenerate gameplay" means "everyone is playing the same thing" rather than being intended to be insulting.

    On the question of whether the CI mesmer really was that good compared to other builds there - I'm not necessarily saying that I agree with ArenaNet's reasoning, just laying out what the balance team usually means by "degenerate gameplay" and how it could be applied to the CI mesmer. That said, my own anecdotal observation that over the last month it's been uncommon to see ranked matches that don't have two mesmers a side does suggest there might have been something off going on there.

    (To be honest, I found that I usually had more of an impact on the game playing other builds, but that might be a mix of the matchmaking throwing up one-sided matches and not having had the opportunity to fully master the build.)

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