When will you address Holosmith? it has been 2 years since PoF — Guild Wars 2 Forums

When will you address Holosmith? it has been 2 years since PoF

Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

The changes to rifle last patch were a good step in the right direction but now this remains the only overperforming spec ....

-too much mobilty : rocket boots 1800 range covered every 20s on top of removing impairing conditions and rifle 5
-too much damage : easy 20+ might plus easy access to quickness
-too much disengage : why...6s stealth every 36s with elixir s, insta animation impossible to interrupt...a 6s where the engi can potentially cross the whole map...too much..way too much
-too much sustain : a holo can recover 80% of its HP in the blink of an eye after eating a full burst combo....from 20% HP he goes back to almost full health this is by far the most broken aspect of any class

If the devs either bring down Healing turret or Heat therapy...or ideally both that would be terrific...honestly I dunno why you keep nerfing mesmer when a spec like holosmith still exists untouched since PoF launch

-A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

<1

Comments

  • White Kitsunee.4620White Kitsunee.4620 Member ✭✭
    edited August 3, 2019

    Get rid of holo's stab and you'll see why holo needs some of those tools.

    Personally I dont think the effectiveness of holo needs to be nerfed, it's the play style that needs to be nerfed.

  • @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @White Kitsunee.4620 said:
    Personally I dont think the effectiveness of holo needs to be nerfed, it's the play style that needs to be nerfed.

    What does this even mean?

    It means make the class less face rolly.
    Make it so player that isnt very skilled is punished for pushing buttons for no reason.

    Make heat more of a mechanic to manage, remove some stab, nerf easy escape options, stuff like that.

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 3, 2019

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    If the devs either bring down Healing turret or Heat therapy...or ideally both that would be terrific...honestly I dunno why you keep nerfing mesmer when a spec like holosmith still exists untouched since PoF launch

    Bolded the relevant section for obvious whataboutism - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    honestly I dunno why you keep nerfing mesmer when a spec like holosmith still exists untouched since PoF launch

    Riiiiiiight.....

    Quickness removed from Elixir U, Static Discharge damage reduced by 50%, Prime Light Beam CD increased by 25%, Holo Leap damage reduced by 34%, Light Strike damage reduced by 40%, Holo Shockwave damage reduced by 22%, Corono Burst might-generation reduced by 50%, Spectrum Shield CD increased by 33%, Aim-Assisted-Rocket damage reduced by 50%, Minesweeper damage reduced by 33%, Vent Exhaust damage reduced by 32%, Protection Injection CD increased by 100%.

    Probably more stuff too, that's just a very quick glance at patch-notes. I don't play Holo, so I've almost certainly missed something important.

    Don't mis-understand, Holosmith definitely needs a tune-down.

    I just find hilarious the whining of mesmers who think they're the only class to ever get nerfed.

    Yep. Holo's gotten nerfed substantially many times. The stability changes were some of the biggest ones. But you'd never know if you listened to a lot of the whiners.

    Could it use some more nerfs? Eh, probably. I think there's something to be said about its survivability (Heat Therapy/Iron Blooded shtuff) for its damage potential. But it's starting to become more of a l2p issue than it is a straight OP issue.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • jbondo.9817jbondo.9817 Member ✭✭

    honestly if you're struggling vs holo
    play radiance guardian or the meta sb warrior build, use 10% of your brain, and holo isn't as big of a threat as you're making it out to be.

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @praqtos.9035 said:
    Pretty funny to see clueless people accusing others in being "mesmer main" when they are not, facepalm of an epic level.
    The most dumb excuse to NOT nerf this braindead faceroll spam class is : "but look how many times it was nerfed !" . Not the case for the other classes if they are too strong

    That's not an excuse. It's pointing out that the OP's argument is invalid, because holosmith has been nerfed repeatedly and substantially.

    I think some changes to reduce heat therapy may need to be in order, but overall I haven't seen that many problems with it.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Dreddo.9865Dreddo.9865 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2019

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    -too much disengage : why...6s stealth every 36s with elixir s, insta animation impossible to interrupt...a 6s where the engi can potentially cross the whole map...too much..way too much
    -too much sustain : a holo can recover 80% of its HP in the blink of an eye after eating a full burst combo....from 20% HP he goes back to almost full health this is by far the most broken aspect of any class

    Those two (combined with the uber mobility) make a good holo almost unkillable. I try imagine sometimes how devs are balancing the classes. I mean there are professions that have all the bits of the package while others don't, isn't it obvious to them? In other words you can't have mobility, survivability, sustain, decent damage when boons up (which holo has a ton) and being a nuking CC machine all at the same time.

  • blitzkrieg.2451blitzkrieg.2451 Member ✭✭
    edited August 5, 2019

    @Razor.6392 said:

    @blitzkrieg.2451 said:

    @Razor.6392 said:

    • The 2s holo leap needs to go, it makes this class impossible to be kited. Only Thieves have that kind of sticking power but they also don't have stability, pulsing nuke effects, 20 stacks of might or protection. Holo Leap needs to have at least 3.5s of CD.
    • Cut down on the quickness bro. Same goes for Soulbeast. Quickness is supposed to be a rare boon that should only be accessible for very short amounts of time.
    • Elixir S, or at least the toolbelt, needs a drawback. Whether it is longer CD or something I dunno. It's a must pick as it gives both the best utility and toolbelt skills in 1.
    • Photon Forge's range of abilities (namely corona, autoattack and shockwave) need to get looked at. Autoattack has 240 range, Corona has 300 radius and Shockwave 600. Need to get reduced to 180, 240 and 450 respectively (for reference, meteor shower, formerly one of the largest aoes in the game, only has 360 radius).

    "The 2s holo leap needs to go, it makes this class impossible to be kited. Only Thieves have that kind of sticking power but they also don't have stability, pulsing nuke effects, 20 stacks of might or protection. Holo Leap needs to have at least 3.5s of CD."

    Except holo performs a specific role that thief doesn't... It needs stability to perform it's role.

    Thief doesn't need it, it's a decapper / 1upper

    Comparing the 2 classes is irrelevant... You should compare Spellbreaker with Holosmith , because they perform similar roles.

    "* Cut down on the quickness bro. Same goes for Soulbeast. Quickness is supposed to be a rare boon that should only be accessible for very short amounts of time. " - Soulbeast is gone from the meta... bro

    If anybody is complaining about soulbeast now then they should practice more because it was killed in the meta basically , just better side node options now.

    Quickness on holo I can see that, halving it's duration could be something.

    "* Elixir S, or at least the toolbelt, needs a drawback. Whether it is longer CD or something I dunno. It's a must pick as it gives both the best utility and toolbelt skills in 1."

    The drawback with Elixir S is that engineer literally needs it in every single build it uses in PvP, ever in the history of engineer except scrapper maybe. I mean, the drawback exists already in that the utility is needed for survivability and down options. If you take that away, there's no trade off... They just need it. So you'd have to buff other defenses. You probably don't agree with this, and that's fine... But engineer slots it for a reason in almost every build, not because it's broken , but because they need it and other survival options don't exist that synergize with the build approaches.

    " * Photon Forge's range of abilities (namely corona, autoattack and shockwave) need to get looked at. Autoattack has 240 range, Corona has 300 radius and Shockwave 600. Need to get reduced to 180, 240 and 450 respectively (for reference, meteor shower, formerly one of the largest aoes in the game, only has 360 radius)."

    That will change nothing, holo is a side noder , it will still cover the point aside from middle in foefire. If you dodge the corona you remove 1 of their 2 stabilities. Then they need to pop elixir u for stab, which is a trade off because it's also a stun break. This turns battles.

    Comparing ele's meteor shower is kind of irrelevant, because ele isnt'a side noder outside of weaver. Holo, again, is.

    Gotta know the roles before asking for balance changes... You can nerf holo all you want, you'll just see more spellbreakers and weavers and you'll most likely be complaining about them.

    You are talking about pvp roles, I'm talking about overall balance and adding weaknesses to a class that pretty much is the full package. Holo cannot be kited, has 2-3 gap closers, has ridiculous damage mitigation and boon generation even when they're considered 'glass cannons'.

    I mentioned meteor shower because most people are aware of its radius, to set as a point of reference (shockwave has SIX HUNDRED RADIUS). I EVEN SAID THIS and the guy starts saying "staff ele isn't a side noder" what the hell are you on about? Are you a robot? If it wouldn't make a difference then let's go ahead and nuke photon forge range on abilities.

    Holy kitten dude, this is the kind of people that play holo I guess. Don't faceroll when you press the reply button.

    I'm talking about roles because you compared a decapper/+1er to a side noder.. I mean, this is the 1st obvious pointer that you're most likely below average in PvP.

    Balance has nothing to do with either, because balance works differently for both roles. Hence the perspective of balance in general, as it should be.

    Also, they're not glass cannon, they're side noders similar to Spellbreaker. Hence the same amulet usage. Glass cannons don't use Demolisher, they use berserker or marauder.

    If you can't see these obvious things, then I'm not sure what else to type here, your knowledge clearly shows itself on the topics.

    Also I don't main holo, I multi-class, but these are just common sense things you should know in PvP.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2019

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:
    Pretty funny to see clueless people accusing others in being "mesmer main" when they are not, facepalm of an epic level.
    The most dumb excuse to NOT nerf this braindead faceroll spam class is : "but look how many times it was nerfed !" . Not the case for the other classes if they are too strong

    That's not an excuse. It's pointing out that the OP's argument is invalid, because holosmith has been nerfed repeatedly and substantially.

    I think some changes to reduce heat therapy may need to be in order, but overall I haven't seen that many problems with it.

    The nerfs were so long time ago (ye, it was a fun time when Zan without a weapon farmed everyone just with forge alone) and when every class seeing nerfs holo havent seen any meaningful nerfs this year at all. Thanks to complaints about the other class 24/7 and some dev main it xD
    Tbh its not surprising that biased holo main think the class is fine because he plays it, thats pretty much it.
    HT wont stop holos from spamming everything with low cooldown and pretty much every skill worth a dodge, sure HT will fix it /s
    The only drawback is covered by perma vigor (need a huge shaves), "Thermal Release Valve" that trigger HT (800 hp every evade) and drop heat (also need like 8-10% to reduce spam from it).

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:
    Pretty funny to see clueless people accusing others in being "mesmer main" when they are not, facepalm of an epic level.
    The most dumb excuse to NOT nerf this braindead faceroll spam class is : "but look how many times it was nerfed !" . Not the case for the other classes if they are too strong

    That's not an excuse. It's pointing out that the OP's argument is invalid, because holosmith has been nerfed repeatedly and substantially.

    I think some changes to reduce heat therapy may need to be in order, but overall I haven't seen that many problems with it.

    The nerfs were so long time ago (ye, it was a fun time when Zan without a weapon farmed everyone just with forge alone) and when every class seeing nerfs holo havent seen any meaningful nerfs this year at all. Thanks to complaints about the other class 24/7 and some dev main it xD
    Tbh its not surprising that biased holo main think the class is fine because he plays it, thats pretty much it.
    HT wont stop holos from spamming everything with low cooldown and pretty much every skill worth a dodge, sure HT will fix it /s
    The only drawback is covered by perma vigor (need a huge shaves), "Thermal Release Valve" that trigger HT (800 hp every evade) and drop heat (also need like 8-10% to reduce spam from it).

    Ah yes. The "biased X main" argument. Weren't you criticizing that very argument?

    What are you talking about no nerfs this year? There was a nerf to stability on March 5th. They added an additional penalty to overheating on July 16th. They added dynamic damage scaling to laser's edge, also on July 16th. These are all nerfs. Not to mention the serious nerfs to scrapper.

    I know that when your main gets hit, it hurts the most. But don't think they've been ignoring holo either.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Bazooka.3590Bazooka.3590 Member ✭✭✭

    Holographic Shockwave with 15 sec recharge is the most broken skill atm

  • @Razor.6392 said:

    • Elixir S, or at least the toolbelt, needs a drawback. Whether it is longer CD or something I dunno. It's a must pick as it gives both the best utility and toolbelt skills in 1.

    Eh, I heavily disagree on that, it's pretty much the only thing that is able to keep me alive and be able to escape as a core Grenadier engi. :/

  • Mouse.7382Mouse.7382 Member ✭✭

    I agree...and with the recent CI changes, coupled with the complete and utter BS that is forum b*tchinguntilaclassisgutted, NERF EM!! Its too much effort to learn how to counter classes now...and we as online gamers are much too lazy to be bothered with that kind of nonsense. In fact...screw it...all classes that I had to make, in order to figure out their counterplay need to be nerfed now....think I'll post about it.

    I want a trophy, and I want to be the best at my class......but I'll be damned if its me that is the problem....it must be the skills

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2019

    Isn-t it obvious? Anet devs probably main Mesmer warriors rangers, as they are almost always doing well. lets leave engineers good please?

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2019

    @Bazooka.3590 said:
    Holographic Shockwave with 15 sec recharge is the most broken skill atm

    That recharge is without the context of heat. When you factor heat in, it's pretty rare to use HS more than once every 30ish seconds.

    This is part of why the complaints against skill recharges in PF are often problematic -- the heat is the major limiting factor in usage, not the stated recharge time. If you really want to nerf a skill in PF, all you have to do is increase its heat generation.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Zephoid.4263Zephoid.4263 Member ✭✭✭

    My only complaint with holo is Forge 5 having an incredibly hard to determine knockdown. The shockwave from it is hard to dodge since it is nearly invisible, goes through objects, and has a somewhat slow travel speed. I always end up dodging at the wrong time even if i know its coming.

    I do question why engy get a better stealth skill than almost ANYTHING thief get... as essentially a passive (its a toolbelt skill).

    That being said, holo has been getting nerfs lately. It still at the top of the teirs, but they are trying at least.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2019

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:
    Pretty funny to see clueless people accusing others in being "mesmer main" when they are not, facepalm of an epic level.
    The most dumb excuse to NOT nerf this braindead faceroll spam class is : "but look how many times it was nerfed !" . Not the case for the other classes if they are too strong

    That's not an excuse. It's pointing out that the OP's argument is invalid, because holosmith has been nerfed repeatedly and substantially.

    I think some changes to reduce heat therapy may need to be in order, but overall I haven't seen that many problems with it.

    The nerfs were so long time ago (ye, it was a fun time when Zan without a weapon farmed everyone just with forge alone) and when every class seeing nerfs holo havent seen any meaningful nerfs this year at all. Thanks to complaints about the other class 24/7 and some dev main it xD
    Tbh its not surprising that biased holo main think the class is fine because he plays it, thats pretty much it.
    HT wont stop holos from spamming everything with low cooldown and pretty much every skill worth a dodge, sure HT will fix it /s
    The only drawback is covered by perma vigor (need a huge shaves), "Thermal Release Valve" that trigger HT (800 hp every evade) and drop heat (also need like 8-10% to reduce spam from it).

    Ah yes. The "biased X main" argument. Weren't you criticizing that very argument?

    What are you talking about no nerfs this year? There was a nerf to stability on March 5th. They added an additional penalty to overheating on July 16th. They added dynamic damage scaling to laser's edge, also on July 16th. These are all nerfs. Not to mention the serious nerfs to scrapper.

    I know that when your main gets hit, it hurts the most. But don't think they've been ignoring holo either.

    Dont you think you are dramatize too much ? Only you believe that is too much.
    The only nerf that I can call was "serious" was stability nerf. Lasers edge and especially this "overheating penalty" are pretty much nothing, didnt affect it much, the ability to spam forge and prevent it from overheating is a l2p issue.
    Holo flew under the nerf radar all the time and pretty much everyone know how stupid holo is but forum is more interested in complaining about clones.
    There is no connection to how "my main" being nerfed, nice try tho

  • MrForz.1953MrForz.1953 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2019

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    The changes to rifle last patch were a good step in the right direction but now this remains the only overperforming spec ....

    -too much mobilty : rocket boots 1800 range covered every 20s on top of removing impairing conditions and rifle 5
    -too much damage : easy 20+ might plus easy access to quickness
    -too much disengage : why...6s stealth every 36s with elixir s, insta animation impossible to interrupt...a 6s where the engi can potentially cross the whole map...too much..way too much
    -too much sustain : a holo can recover 80% of its HP in the blink of an eye after eating a full burst combo....from 20% HP he goes back to almost full health this is by far the most broken aspect of any class

    If the devs either bring down Healing turret or Heat therapy...or ideally both that would be terrific...honestly I dunno why you keep nerfing mesmer when a spec like holosmith still exists untouched since PoF launch

    First, it hasn't been "untouched". Second, beyond Heat Therapy, it's not Holosmith you're looking to nerf, it's core Engineer. How much cluelessness is that.

    Disgruntled Charr Engineer and Pirate - Jade Quarry

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MrForz.1953 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    The changes to rifle last patch were a good step in the right direction but now this remains the only overperforming spec ....

    -too much mobilty : rocket boots 1800 range covered every 20s on top of removing impairing conditions and rifle 5
    -too much damage : easy 20+ might plus easy access to quickness
    -too much disengage : why...6s stealth every 36s with elixir s, insta animation impossible to interrupt...a 6s where the engi can potentially cross the whole map...too much..way too much
    -too much sustain : a holo can recover 80% of its HP in the blink of an eye after eating a full burst combo....from 20% HP he goes back to almost full health this is by far the most broken aspect of any class

    If the devs either bring down Healing turret or Heat therapy...or ideally both that would be terrific...honestly I dunno why you keep nerfing mesmer when a spec like holosmith still exists untouched since PoF launch

    First, it hasn't been "untouched". Second, beyond Heat Therapy, it's not Holosmith you're looking to nerf, it's core Engineer. How much cluelessness it that.

    Core or not if its overperforming asf and part of the holosmith builds it doesnt deserve to be looked at ? How much clunesness is that.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    50% holosmith usage in this game. This was a plat 2 game for me. Two of the holosmiths were Top 10. Two of the other holosmiths were top 20.

    Whatever is the most broke, I find it happens in games like this. 2-3 of that broken class on each team. Amazing.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2019

    What are the trade offs of a holo, I c some with good defense heath recovery, and doing amazing damage.

    Would increase cooldown and casting time of some skills help???

    Maybe reduce the boon duration in most toolbelt stuff???

    My issue are some of their poor trade off on overheating they keep doing over and over so that’s not really a real trade off, once in a while I find a golo that damages trough herald active heal, wich states convert damage to health.

  • MrForz.1953MrForz.1953 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:
    How much clunesness is that.

    Sorry I kind of chuckled at that. Not only the jape fell flat but the spelling made it hilarious.

    Do you even know what makes this very Holosmith build overpowered? It's because you can afford going fully defensive all the way through traits and have the Photon Forge take care of the rest for damage. In a core environment the damage will be either redundant or entirely missing, you'd be required to go for Tools, Firearms, Explosives, two of them at least so that you keep your oomph at the expense of sustain or protection.

    Core (since I'm not a fan of Holosmith myself) would appreciate that you don't put more sticks in its wheels than it already has. You want to nerf Holosmith, tamper with the forge or the trait line, increase skill cooldowns, heat generation, there's a large variety of choices there, have players consider forsaking alchemy+inventions and go glass cannon to reap the rewards.

    You're welcome.

    Disgruntled Charr Engineer and Pirate - Jade Quarry

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2019

    @MrForz.1953 said:
    You want to nerf Holosmith

    Why we want to nerf holo only? Engineer deserve the same treatment as other classes.
    From tools I would nerf to hell power wrench; optimazed activation to 1.5s vigor; lock on not to have 2 separate reveals but 1; takedown round is passive damage that you cant even see on the ground because of how poorly its made.
    Alchemy: hidden flask is literally busted as hell, passive that is even better than utility engineer can get and even lower cooldown - 60s cd minimum ; Invigorating Speed - 3s vigor on 10s cd.
    Throw elixir X -2-3s stealth.
    Pretty much reasonable changes. Then we can go after forge if its not enough.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2019

    @MrForz.1953 said:
    Core (since I'm not a fan of Holosmith myself) would appreciate that you don't put more sticks in its wheels than it already has. You want to nerf Holosmith, tamper with the forge or the trait line, increase skill cooldowns, heat generation, there's a large variety of choices there, have players consider forsaking alchemy+inventions and go glass cannon to reap the rewards.

    Yes, that's why we should revert CI and nerf mirage instead.

  • MrForz.1953MrForz.1953 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2019

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @MrForz.1953 said:
    Core (since I'm not a fan of Holosmith myself) would appreciate that you don't put more sticks in its wheels than it already has. You want to nerf Holosmith, tamper with the forge or the trait line, increase skill cooldowns, heat generation, there's a large variety of choices there, have players consider forsaking alchemy+inventions and go glass cannon to reap the rewards.

    Yes, that's why we should revert CI and nerf mirage instead.

    Got zero opinion on that, beyond being tired of all that moaning.

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @MrForz.1953 said:
    You want to nerf Holosmith

    Why we want to nerf holo only?

    Read title.

    Disgruntled Charr Engineer and Pirate - Jade Quarry

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MrForz.1953 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @MrForz.1953 said:
    Core (since I'm not a fan of Holosmith myself) would appreciate that you don't put more sticks in its wheels than it already has. You want to nerf Holosmith, tamper with the forge or the trait line, increase skill cooldowns, heat generation, there's a large variety of choices there, have players consider forsaking alchemy+inventions and go glass cannon to reap the rewards.

    Yes, that's why we should revert CI and nerf mirage instead.

    Got zero opinion on that, beyond being tired of all that moaning.

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @MrForz.1953 said:
    You want to nerf Holosmith

    Why we want to nerf holo only?

    Read title.

    You have major issues boy.
    For an example "nerf mirage" always end up nerfing mesmer core traitlines/weapons/utilities into unviability instead of "mirage". I bet you still dont get it, lost case

  • MrForz.1953MrForz.1953 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:
    You have major issues boy.
    For an example "nerf mirage" always end up nerfing mesmer core traitlines/weapons/utilities into unviability instead of "mirage". I bet you still dont get it, lost case

    So, I declare that I don't have an opinion on the "Mesmers and CI" case because I'm not an expert on the class and I'm a lost case? I'm not into petty personal attacks like you are I'm afraid.

    What I can say with confidence however is that you're upset about the CI case, I get it, it's probably wrong. But you wanting to inflict the same feeling of betrayal on other classes is not a solution. Nerfing Core Engineer because Holosmith is overpowered for the sake of having others feel the way you do is wrong. Try to be the better person instead of being all edgy.

    Disgruntled Charr Engineer and Pirate - Jade Quarry

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:
    Pretty funny to see clueless people accusing others in being "mesmer main" when they are not, facepalm of an epic level.
    The most dumb excuse to NOT nerf this braindead faceroll spam class is : "but look how many times it was nerfed !" . Not the case for the other classes if they are too strong

    That's not an excuse. It's pointing out that the OP's argument is invalid, because holosmith has been nerfed repeatedly and substantially.

    I think some changes to reduce heat therapy may need to be in order, but overall I haven't seen that many problems with it.

    The nerfs were so long time ago (ye, it was a fun time when Zan without a weapon farmed everyone just with forge alone) and when every class seeing nerfs holo havent seen any meaningful nerfs this year at all. Thanks to complaints about the other class 24/7 and some dev main it xD
    Tbh its not surprising that biased holo main think the class is fine because he plays it, thats pretty much it.
    HT wont stop holos from spamming everything with low cooldown and pretty much every skill worth a dodge, sure HT will fix it /s
    The only drawback is covered by perma vigor (need a huge shaves), "Thermal Release Valve" that trigger HT (800 hp every evade) and drop heat (also need like 8-10% to reduce spam from it).

    Ah yes. The "biased X main" argument. Weren't you criticizing that very argument?

    What are you talking about no nerfs this year? There was a nerf to stability on March 5th. They added an additional penalty to overheating on July 16th. They added dynamic damage scaling to laser's edge, also on July 16th. These are all nerfs. Not to mention the serious nerfs to scrapper.

    I know that when your main gets hit, it hurts the most. But don't think they've been ignoring holo either.

    Dont you think you are dramatize too much ? Only you believe that is too much.
    The only nerf that I can call was "serious" was stability nerf. Lasers edge and especially this "overheating penalty" are pretty much nothing, didnt affect it much, the ability to spam forge and prevent it from overheating is a l2p issue.
    Holo flew under the nerf radar all the time and pretty much everyone know how stupid holo is but forum is more interested in complaining about clones.
    There is no connection to how "my main" being nerfed, nice try tho

    Don't you think you're playing down nerfs on other classes, and playing up nerfs on yours?

    • The laser's edge change actually is pretty important -- because it means holos never hit the 15% modifier without overheating. It also means that maintaining >50% heat is useless, unlike before where you could maintain >50% heat and keep the buff going. In essence, it removed smart, tactical play.
    • The nerf to overheating... well, that one's minor for the most part unless you screw up. In which case, it's a death knell on top of an already harsh punishment.

    You say holo flies under the radar when nearly every balance patch since PoF has nerfed it. The only "straight buff" holo has received was adding combo finishers onto it, which it should've had from the get-go. It still doesn't have any heat interaction with core weapons, despite literal years of engis griping about the lack of interaction with the core class.

    @MrForz.1953 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @MrForz.1953 said:
    Core (since I'm not a fan of Holosmith myself) would appreciate that you don't put more sticks in its wheels than it already has. You want to nerf Holosmith, tamper with the forge or the trait line, increase skill cooldowns, heat generation, there's a large variety of choices there, have players consider forsaking alchemy+inventions and go glass cannon to reap the rewards.

    Yes, that's why we should revert CI and nerf mirage instead.

    Got zero opinion on that, beyond being tired of all that moaning.

    Amen.

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @MrForz.1953 said:
    You want to nerf Holosmith

    Why we want to nerf holo only? Engineer deserve the same treatment as other classes.
    From tools I would nerf to hell power wrench; optimazed activation to 1.5s vigor; lock on not to have 2 separate reveals but 1; takedown round is passive damage that you cant even see on the ground because of how poorly its made.
    Alchemy: hidden flask is literally busted as hell, passive that is even better than utility engineer can get and even lower cooldown - 60s cd minimum ; Invigorating Speed - 3s vigor on 10s cd.
    Throw elixir X -2-3s stealth.
    Pretty much reasonable changes. Then we can go after forge if its not enough.

    Ah yes, missing his point entirely. Core engi isn't viable, but you want to nerf the hell out of its still-functioning traitlines before even touching the thing you actually have an issue with.

    The sustain is obviously the problem with holo -- it's meant to be a glass cannon. The thing is... there's some obvious sustain in holo already. Also known as heat therapy. If you want to hit the sustain, that is a primary candidate. You could also increase heat generation on many of the forge skills to make it a shorter duration burst mode.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MrForz.1953 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:
    You have major issues boy.
    For an example "nerf mirage" always end up nerfing mesmer core traitlines/weapons/utilities into unviability instead of "mirage". I bet you still dont get it, lost case

    So, I declare that I don't have an opinion on the "Mesmers and CI" case because I'm not an expert on the class and I'm a lost case? I'm not into petty personal attacks like you are I'm afraid.

    What I can say with confidence however is that you're upset about the CI case, I get it, it's probably wrong. But you wanting to inflict the same feeling of betrayal on other classes is not a solution. Nerfing Core Engineer because Holosmith is overpowered for the sake of having others feel the way you do is wrong.

    You are pretty much hilarious, thinking that they disabled CI affect in in the slighest. Thats the history of the past behind all nerfs upon most,if not all classes, not just mesmer, you know, thats not my fault that you are willingly blind and not seeing further than your own main class :)

  • MrForz.1953MrForz.1953 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:
    You are pretty much hilarious, thinking that they disabled CI affect in in the slighest. Thats the history of the past behind all nerfs upon most,if not all classes, not just mesmer, you know, thats not my fault that you are willingly blind and not seeing further than your own main class :)

    Setting aside you talking out of your kitten, I know very well what you mean. Maybe many things, tweaks, changes, rehauls, nerfs, buffs on classes/specs I'm not too knowledgable about are uncalled for. Doesn't mean however it is right to apply nerfs out of spite rather than in great concern for balance across classes and specs. The OP may have simply missed the mark, you... you seem to have a bone to pick with engineers.

    Disgruntled Charr Engineer and Pirate - Jade Quarry

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2019

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @MrForz.1953 said:
    You want to nerf Holosmith

    Why we want to nerf holo only? Engineer deserve the same treatment as other classes.
    From tools I would nerf to hell power wrench; optimazed activation to 1.5s vigor; lock on not to have 2 separate reveals but 1; takedown round is passive damage that you cant even see on the ground because of how poorly its made.
    Alchemy: hidden flask is literally busted as hell, passive that is even better than utility engineer can get and even lower cooldown - 60s cd minimum ; Invigorating Speed - 3s vigor on 10s cd.
    Throw elixir X -2-3s stealth.
    Pretty much reasonable changes. Then we can go after forge if its not enough.

    Ah yes, missing his point entirely. Core engi isn't viable, but you want to nerf the hell out of its still-functioning traitlines before even touching the thing you actually have an issue with.

    Like... I dont know... "core isnt viable" ... is this a joke or not ?
    Ok, how is core mesmer is viable to be nerfed to the state where I have to get specific traitlines just for 1 or 2 useful traits?
    Meanwhile I called out clearly OP traits that need a look at them, I didnt just call a slaughter upon the class for no good reason.

    The sustain is obviously the problem with holo -- it's meant to be a glass cannon. The thing is... there's some obvious sustain in holo already. Also known as heat therapy. If you want to hit the sustain, that is a primary candidate. You could also increase heat generation on many of the forge skills to make it a shorter duration burst mode.

    Sustain and spam nature of forge and that every skill is a must dodge. The only drawback that holo has is too easy to manage even for new players that start playing holo (but experienced in general). Current level of vigor + vent exhaust allow forge to be spammed that much. At this point I feel like a broken record

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @MrForz.1953 said:
    You want to nerf Holosmith

    Why we want to nerf holo only? Engineer deserve the same treatment as other classes.
    From tools I would nerf to hell power wrench; optimazed activation to 1.5s vigor; lock on not to have 2 separate reveals but 1; takedown round is passive damage that you cant even see on the ground because of how poorly its made.
    Alchemy: hidden flask is literally busted as hell, passive that is even better than utility engineer can get and even lower cooldown - 60s cd minimum ; Invigorating Speed - 3s vigor on 10s cd.
    Throw elixir X -2-3s stealth.
    Pretty much reasonable changes. Then we can go after forge if its not enough.

    Ah yes, missing his point entirely. Core engi isn't viable, but you want to nerf the hell out of its still-functioning traitlines before even touching the thing you actually have an issue with.

    Like... I dont know... "core isnt viable" ... is this a joke or not ?
    Ok, how is core mesmer is viable to be nerfed to the state where I have to get specific traitlines just for 1 or 2 useful traits?
    Meanwhile I called out clearly OP traits that need a look at them, I didnt just call a slaughter upon the class for no good reason.

    Was I talking about CI or mesmer nerfs here? No.

    I was pointing out that you'd nerf the two most viable traitlines for core engi because you want to see holo nerfed. He was pointing out how you'd further drive core engi into the ground because of this.

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    The sustain is obviously the problem with holo -- it's meant to be a glass cannon. The thing is... there's some obvious sustain in holo already. Also known as heat therapy. If you want to hit the sustain, that is a primary candidate. You could also increase heat generation on many of the forge skills to make it a shorter duration burst mode.

    Sustain and spam nature of forge and that every skill is a must dodge. The only drawback that holo has is too easy to manage even for new players that start playing holo (but experienced in general). Current level of vigor + vent exhaust allow forge to be spammed that much. At this point I feel like a broken record

    Because you are not getting the point.

    • If you feel it's too spammy -> increase each skill's heat generation. That forces holo out of PF faster, and means they have to more carefully pick the skills they use.
    • If you feel it's too capable of sustain -> Reduce Heat Therapy. It's a free 6500 health about once every 20-25 seconds.

    These are very real, reasonable solutions to your problems that keep the "feel" of the spec intact. But you keep suggesting overbearing nerfs that would hurt core engi and scrapper too, when they are not in good places as-is.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Razor.6392Razor.6392 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @blitzkrieg.2451 said:

    @Razor.6392 said:

    @blitzkrieg.2451 said:

    @Razor.6392 said:

    • The 2s holo leap needs to go, it makes this class impossible to be kited. Only Thieves have that kind of sticking power but they also don't have stability, pulsing nuke effects, 20 stacks of might or protection. Holo Leap needs to have at least 3.5s of CD.
    • Cut down on the quickness bro. Same goes for Soulbeast. Quickness is supposed to be a rare boon that should only be accessible for very short amounts of time.
    • Elixir S, or at least the toolbelt, needs a drawback. Whether it is longer CD or something I dunno. It's a must pick as it gives both the best utility and toolbelt skills in 1.
    • Photon Forge's range of abilities (namely corona, autoattack and shockwave) need to get looked at. Autoattack has 240 range, Corona has 300 radius and Shockwave 600. Need to get reduced to 180, 240 and 450 respectively (for reference, meteor shower, formerly one of the largest aoes in the game, only has 360 radius).

    "The 2s holo leap needs to go, it makes this class impossible to be kited. Only Thieves have that kind of sticking power but they also don't have stability, pulsing nuke effects, 20 stacks of might or protection. Holo Leap needs to have at least 3.5s of CD."

    Except holo performs a specific role that thief doesn't... It needs stability to perform it's role.

    Thief doesn't need it, it's a decapper / 1upper

    Comparing the 2 classes is irrelevant... You should compare Spellbreaker with Holosmith , because they perform similar roles.

    "* Cut down on the quickness bro. Same goes for Soulbeast. Quickness is supposed to be a rare boon that should only be accessible for very short amounts of time. " - Soulbeast is gone from the meta... bro

    If anybody is complaining about soulbeast now then they should practice more because it was killed in the meta basically , just better side node options now.

    Quickness on holo I can see that, halving it's duration could be something.

    "* Elixir S, or at least the toolbelt, needs a drawback. Whether it is longer CD or something I dunno. It's a must pick as it gives both the best utility and toolbelt skills in 1."

    The drawback with Elixir S is that engineer literally needs it in every single build it uses in PvP, ever in the history of engineer except scrapper maybe. I mean, the drawback exists already in that the utility is needed for survivability and down options. If you take that away, there's no trade off... They just need it. So you'd have to buff other defenses. You probably don't agree with this, and that's fine... But engineer slots it for a reason in almost every build, not because it's broken , but because they need it and other survival options don't exist that synergize with the build approaches.

    " * Photon Forge's range of abilities (namely corona, autoattack and shockwave) need to get looked at. Autoattack has 240 range, Corona has 300 radius and Shockwave 600. Need to get reduced to 180, 240 and 450 respectively (for reference, meteor shower, formerly one of the largest aoes in the game, only has 360 radius)."

    That will change nothing, holo is a side noder , it will still cover the point aside from middle in foefire. If you dodge the corona you remove 1 of their 2 stabilities. Then they need to pop elixir u for stab, which is a trade off because it's also a stun break. This turns battles.

    Comparing ele's meteor shower is kind of irrelevant, because ele isnt'a side noder outside of weaver. Holo, again, is.

    Gotta know the roles before asking for balance changes... You can nerf holo all you want, you'll just see more spellbreakers and weavers and you'll most likely be complaining about them.

    You are talking about pvp roles, I'm talking about overall balance and adding weaknesses to a class that pretty much is the full package. Holo cannot be kited, has 2-3 gap closers, has ridiculous damage mitigation and boon generation even when they're considered 'glass cannons'.

    I mentioned meteor shower because most people are aware of its radius, to set as a point of reference (shockwave has SIX HUNDRED RADIUS). I EVEN SAID THIS and the guy starts saying "staff ele isn't a side noder" what the hell are you on about? Are you a robot? If it wouldn't make a difference then let's go ahead and nuke photon forge range on abilities.

    Holy kitten dude, this is the kind of people that play holo I guess. Don't faceroll when you press the reply button.

    I'm talking about roles because you compared a decapper/+1er to a side noder.. I mean, this is the 1st obvious pointer that you're most likely below average in PvP.

    Balance has nothing to do with either, because balance works differently for both roles. Hence the perspective of balance in general, as it should be.

    Also, they're not glass cannon, they're side noders similar to Spellbreaker. Hence the same amulet usage. Glass cannons don't use Demolisher, they use berserker or marauder.

    If you can't see these obvious things, then I'm not sure what else to type here, your knowledge clearly shows itself on the topics.

    Also I don't main holo, I multi-class, but these are just common sense things you should know in PvP.

    So in your opinion, a "side noder" should have as much mobility and gap closers than a "decapper +1er"? You might pretend you have a lot of pvp knowledge but you're severely lacking in the IQ department my dude. That's a blatant logical fallacy that debunks your argument =/

    All I see is a class with no weaknesses, very little regard for resource management and the nuking / CC output of a glass cannon while using demo amulet (once again, defeating a possible argument of it being presumably 'balanced').

    Just stop replying man, this is embarrassing. I don't care about pvp, trash mode for deluded failures that never were good in any other actually competitive game, I'm a wvwer now lmao and yes, they're hilariously over the top, still.

    Never said I'm the best, but I believe I'm better than you.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2019

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @MrForz.1953 said:
    You want to nerf Holosmith

    Why we want to nerf holo only? Engineer deserve the same treatment as other classes.
    From tools I would nerf to hell power wrench; optimazed activation to 1.5s vigor; lock on not to have 2 separate reveals but 1; takedown round is passive damage that you cant even see on the ground because of how poorly its made.
    Alchemy: hidden flask is literally busted as hell, passive that is even better than utility engineer can get and even lower cooldown - 60s cd minimum ; Invigorating Speed - 3s vigor on 10s cd.
    Throw elixir X -2-3s stealth.
    Pretty much reasonable changes. Then we can go after forge if its not enough.

    Ah yes, missing his point entirely. Core engi isn't viable, but you want to nerf the hell out of its still-functioning traitlines before even touching the thing you actually have an issue with.

    Like... I dont know... "core isnt viable" ... is this a joke or not ?
    Ok, how is core mesmer is viable to be nerfed to the state where I have to get specific traitlines just for 1 or 2 useful traits?
    Meanwhile I called out clearly OP traits that need a look at them, I didnt just call a slaughter upon the class for no good reason.

    Was I talking about CI or mesmer nerfs here? No.

    I was pointing out that you'd nerf the two most viable traitlines for core engi because you want to see holo nerfed. He was pointing out how you'd further drive core engi into the ground because of this.

    Are you completely blind ? I'm not talking about CI either. The nerf I suggest are more than reasonable and not just to "nerf holo". Every trait I mentioned, if you seen it ofc, deserve a tone down because they are too strong.

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    The sustain is obviously the problem with holo -- it's meant to be a glass cannon. The thing is... there's some obvious sustain in holo already. Also known as heat therapy. If you want to hit the sustain, that is a primary candidate. You could also increase heat generation on many of the forge skills to make it a shorter duration burst mode.

    Sustain and spam nature of forge and that every skill is a must dodge. The only drawback that holo has is too easy to manage even for new players that start playing holo (but experienced in general). Current level of vigor + vent exhaust allow forge to be spammed that much. At this point I feel like a broken record

    Because you are not getting the point.

    • If you feel it's too spammy -> increase each skill's heat generation. That forces holo out of PF faster, and means they have to more carefully pick the skills they use.
    • If you feel it's too capable of sustain -> Reduce Heat Therapy. It's a free 6500 health about once every 20-25 seconds.
      These are very real, reasonable solutions to your problems that keep the "feel" of the spec intact. But you keep suggesting overbearing nerfs that would hurt core engi and scrapper too, when they are not in good places as-is.

    I suggest nerfs to clearly busted traits, of course you dont think they are :joy:
    Double reveal in 1 trait is fine or 4200 crits from passive proc bomb is fine as well(that cant even see), 20s+ vigor at any time is fine too, hidden flask that nearly permanent keep this all boons on you, clearly fine, stealth elixir that on stealth elite level on less cooldown is ok too. /s
    But something tells me we both wont get what we want, how many times people told anet that evade in stun is the reason of all mess or EM shouldnt be released? All we can do is complaint until we get nerfs we want, working just fine

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @MrForz.1953 said:
    You want to nerf Holosmith

    Why we want to nerf holo only? Engineer deserve the same treatment as other classes.
    From tools I would nerf to hell power wrench; optimazed activation to 1.5s vigor; lock on not to have 2 separate reveals but 1; takedown round is passive damage that you cant even see on the ground because of how poorly its made.
    Alchemy: hidden flask is literally busted as hell, passive that is even better than utility engineer can get and even lower cooldown - 60s cd minimum ; Invigorating Speed - 3s vigor on 10s cd.
    Throw elixir X -2-3s stealth.
    Pretty much reasonable changes. Then we can go after forge if its not enough.

    Ah yes, missing his point entirely. Core engi isn't viable, but you want to nerf the hell out of its still-functioning traitlines before even touching the thing you actually have an issue with.

    Like... I dont know... "core isnt viable" ... is this a joke or not ?
    Ok, how is core mesmer is viable to be nerfed to the state where I have to get specific traitlines just for 1 or 2 useful traits?
    Meanwhile I called out clearly OP traits that need a look at them, I didnt just call a slaughter upon the class for no good reason.

    Was I talking about CI or mesmer nerfs here? No.

    I was pointing out that you'd nerf the two most viable traitlines for core engi because you want to see holo nerfed. He was pointing out how you'd further drive core engi into the ground because of this.

    Are you completely blind ? I'm not talking about CI either. The nerf I suggest are more than reasonable and not just to "nerf holo". Every trait I mentioned, if you seen it ofc, deserve a tone down because they are too strong.

    I don't see how any of the traits or skills you mentioned are too strong.

    Possibly because you said throw elixir X instead of throw elixir S. I think the duration on that should be 3-4s.

    But the rest really look like nitpicks than bigger issues.

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    The sustain is obviously the problem with holo -- it's meant to be a glass cannon. The thing is... there's some obvious sustain in holo already. Also known as heat therapy. If you want to hit the sustain, that is a primary candidate. You could also increase heat generation on many of the forge skills to make it a shorter duration burst mode.

    Sustain and spam nature of forge and that every skill is a must dodge. The only drawback that holo has is too easy to manage even for new players that start playing holo (but experienced in general). Current level of vigor + vent exhaust allow forge to be spammed that much. At this point I feel like a broken record

    Because you are not getting the point.

    • If you feel it's too spammy -> increase each skill's heat generation. That forces holo out of PF faster, and means they have to more carefully pick the skills they use.
    • If you feel it's too capable of sustain -> Reduce Heat Therapy. It's a free 6500 health about once every 20-25 seconds.
      These are very real, reasonable solutions to your problems that keep the "feel" of the spec intact. But you keep suggesting overbearing nerfs that would hurt core engi and scrapper too, when they are not in good places as-is.

    I suggest nerfs to clearly busted traits, of course you dont think they are :joy:
    Double reveal in 1 trait is fine or 4200 crits from passive proc bomb is fine as well(that cant even see), 20s+ vigor at any time is fine too, hidden flask that nearly permanent keep this all boons on you, clearly fine, stealth elixir that on stealth elite level on less cooldown is ok too. /s
    But something tells me we both wont get what we want, how many times people told anet that evade in stun is the reason of all mess or EM shouldnt be released? All we can do is complaint until we get nerfs we want, working just fine

    They really aren't "busted" traits as you describe them. I'm not sure why you feel like adding hyperbole to them.

    If you want meaningful changes on holo, I recommend not nerfing unrelated core traits.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Snellibee.2761Snellibee.2761 Member ✭✭✭

    The problem I have with holo is that the heat mechanic is supposed to keep Holosmiths in line without being able to spam everything just like energy does that for Revenant and Initative does that for thief.

    Except with holo heat barely accumulates so you don't need a big brain to not overheat and dodging (because of a trait but still) just lowers the heat when you're going too high. kitten I'd love being able to dodge on rev or thief and just gain energy or initiative so I can spam my abilities even more. Or imagine being able to dodge to reduce the CD of you skills! Wait Holo can do that aswel..

  • Exitus.3297Exitus.3297 Member ✭✭✭

    Holosmiths need to be tuned, but they sure heck haven't been left alone.

    The issue most people see that I tend to concur with is that their kit is overloaded. I don't much care that they do a ton of damage, the problem I see is that they are not punished as harshley for getting outplayed as other classes. They quite a number of get out of jail free cards. Their Healing Turret is easily one of the best if not the best healing skill in the game, being a ~5k heal when casted/overloaded, then you have the water field which can be combo'd with the turret itself, nevermind the number of other combo finishers in their kit, and it is on a low 20 second cooldown. Then when they aren't in Photon Forge they get Heat Therapy for even more healing. Combine this with an an invuln, a ton of dodges from permanent Vigor, super-speed and a Stealth and it just gets obnoxious.

    I can't stress enough that I don't care if they can CC someone into the ground or their resistance to incoming CC. They need these things or their style doesn't work. My issue is with how easy it is for them to bounce back after getting outplayed. It's just frustrating to fight.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I've already given my feedback on this topic here -> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/83120/photon-forge-healing-turret-discussion

    But as a side note, I would like to say that Static Discharge is dealing way way too much damage. It's just as bad or worse than Sic Em at 40%.

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