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AMA(ANets response on condition)

CrimeMaker.8612CrimeMaker.8612 Member ✭✭✭

"Power is intended to be more spike damage-centric. Condi more ramping sustained damage. Currently there are some issues with how quickly condition damage can be spiked up, negating the benefits of power damage. If I presented you with a power skill that dealt 1,000 damage instantaneously and a condition one that dealt 1,000 damage over 4 seconds there wouldn’t be a question about what build to choose; you’d go with the instant option every time. Not counting other effects, condition skills must inflict more damage over their duration in order to make power vs. condi into a real choice."

Arena Net we get that. Thank you for the response.

-You still have it wrong and have no idea what people have been complaining about.

Problem 1: Condition Application -> When you have to blow all your cool downs to fight a condition build or literally build yourself around more than 2 cleanses or even 3 cleanses because 2 or 3 cleanses are just not enough. Thats a problem.

Problem 2: Tanky yet stronk damage -> Arena Net the spike with power you are talking about; to get that spike we players have to run zerk or marauders while you can achieve same spike or better with condi builds while running a lot more tanky and sustain.

Problem 3: Condition stack limit -> The condition not having stack limit makes sense in PvE but when you come into WvW and see 1 person having 20 stacks of burn, 30 bleeding, 30 torment and other cancer thats you straight up bs.

Also arena net your 1000 DPS comparison is kind of bs because if a power can spike 1000 per second and condi doing 1000 over the period of 4 second so thats like 250 spike per second but its not 1 condition that does that tho in WvW its more than 1 condition that can tik 250 per second so thats 4k dps over the span of 4 seconds. Makes sense doesnt it? Now how does 2 or 3 condi ticking for 1000 each second while power is just 1 autos or other skills doing 1k dps each second makes sense?

<1

Comments

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Indeed that is a very odd reply by Anet. They should know by now that the issue is around OP gear (trailblazers/dire) and the amount of condis certain rather ovious classes poop out. We have noted this for a long time now.

    Wait on second thought thats not very odd. Anet still havent got a clue about WvW.

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  • ThomasC.1056ThomasC.1056 Member ✭✭✭

    ANet's point of condi/power makes sense for the global philosophy, but it's too generic to correctly apply to the real game situation... Namely : condition stacks can quickly shift things towards more condition effectiveness. Current skill options, alongside the (still) fairly ease to sustain them (lack of cleanse, and lots of condi duration), are clearly in favor of stacking. Add to this the "more players = multiplication" and this gives condi bombs.

    @CrimeMaker.8612 said:
    Problem 1: Condition Application -> When you have to blow all your cool downs to fight a condition build or literally build yourself around more than 2 cleanses or even 3 cleanses because 2 or 3 cleanses are just not enough. Thats a problem.

    This is true, and should also be thought relatively to stunlocks.

    @CrimeMaker.8612 said:
    Problem 2: Tanky yet stronk damage -> Arena Net the spike with power you are talking about; to get that spike we players have to run zerk or marauders while you can achieve same spike or better with condi builds while running a lot more tanky and sustain.

    I mildly disagree with that. Theoretically, the difference between a full soldier and a full zerk gear (against a test dummy) is only the amount of "spikes" you need to land. Issue is opponents aren't test dummies, but also hit you. So, to me, this is more an issue of too much damage delt, and overall uselessness of sustain stats for power builds. That and the recurring idea in player's mind that a fight must not last longer than 2 spikes.

    @CrimeMaker.8612 said:
    Problem 3: Condition stack limit -> The condition not having stack limit makes sense in PvE but when you come into WvW and see 1 person having 20 stacks of burn, 30 bleeding, 30 torment and other cancer thats you straight up bs.

    I agree with that. My suggestion for a solution is a change of the formula. Currently, it's "That condition damage" times "Amount of stacks". It should be a formula with a max value. For example : Damage = "Max damage allowed for that condi" times (1 - exp(- "Growing constant" times "Amount of stacks")). There're other options as well. With such a formula, damage per tick grows quickly with the first ticks, but the last ones don't add that much damage (and it can be tweaked through the growing constant). That way, there'd be a hard cap for each condi's damage.

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  • Jana.6831Jana.6831 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2017

    Their perception of conditions is kind of very one dimensional. If you block or dodge a power strike you won't be hit. Dodging condition appliance is somewhat harder though, especially if it's necro fields which are plastering everything (and lets no forget about the passive condi application of condi runes). So, you get conditions on you, no matter what. But condition removal is somewhat selective. Not all heals clear all conditions and condi clear over time one removes the most recent condition. So based on that alone condi does way more damage than power.

  • vana.5467vana.5467 Member ✭✭
    edited October 7, 2017

    Do keep in mind they also said:

    We're looking at the condition damage issues that are inherent to the scaling number of players in WvW. Major mode-centric changes are a major part of balance patches and we'll be iterating through several potential changes specifically for WvW. I wouldn't expect huge mode-specific balance changes before the first post-PoF balance patch.

    But that only really addresses part of the problem. The second point in the OP is honestly my biggest issue with condition builds right now. From a large fight perspective, main damage dealers are running around with higher defensive stats than a 2014 frontline guard, while able to literally melt enemies. That's just not reasonable.
    The balance between damage and self sustain is completely messed up here.

    @ThomasC.1056 said:
    I mildly disagree with that. Theoretically, the difference between a full soldier and a full zerk gear (against a test dummy) is only the amount of "spikes" you need to land. Issue is opponents aren't test dummies, but also hit you. So, to me, this is more an issue of too much damage delt, and overall uselessness of sustain stats for power builds. That and the recurring idea in player's mind that a fight must not last longer than 2 spikes.

    I kind of see what you mean, but I don't really follow the argument in the context of the thread. I think the complaint is more along the lines of this: Put soldier's gear on a power build and you realistically won't be able to kill anything. Put Dire gear on a condi build and you'll still have enough damage to kill anything that isn't specifically built to counter you.

  • ThomasC.1056ThomasC.1056 Member ✭✭✭

    @vana.5467 said:

    @ThomasC.1056 said:
    I mildly disagree with that. Theoretically, the difference between a full soldier and a full zerk gear (against a test dummy) is only the amount of "spikes" you need to land. Issue is opponents aren't test dummies, but also hit you. So, to me, this is more an issue of too much damage delt, and overall uselessness of sustain stats for power builds. That and the recurring idea in player's mind that a fight must not last longer than 2 spikes.

    I kind of see what you mean, but I don't really follow the argument in the context of the thread. I think the complaint is more along the lines of this: Put soldier's gear on a power build and you realistically won't be able to kill anything. Put Dire gear on a condi build and you'll still have enough damage to kill anything that isn't specifically built to counter you.

    You're right a soldier geared power spec wouldn't be able to kill as reliably as a zerker one in the WvW context. Now, my point is : that difference is not an issue related to condis, but to other mechanics like the potency of survivability stats vs. offensives specifically for power specs. In a nutshell : the current context is "the best defense is attack" for power specs. I think it's a bad thing, because it promotes fast fights, stunlocks and gimmicky builds. But that's only my opinion on that point.

    Look at that—you broke Scruffy's sarcasm meters. ~ Taimi.

  • Jana.6831Jana.6831 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2017

    @ThomasC.1056 said:
    You're right a soldier geared power spec wouldn't be able to kill as reliably as a zerker one in the WvW context. Now, my point is : that difference is not an issue related to condis, but to other mechanics like the potency of survivability stats vs. offensives specifically for power specs. In a nutshell : the current context is "the best defense is attack" for power specs. I think it's a bad thing, because it promotes fast fights, stunlocks and gimmicky builds. But that's only my opinion on that point.

    Yeah but if you now get the curve from that you'll see that you in theory agree with the OP.
    Condi only needs condi damage. Anet thinks Condi Duration isn't a thing as stated in the OP, so dire is vitality, thoughness and condition power and condi deals their 1k of condition damage. The 1k raw damage power though has to get through the toughness, has to cut the vitality, while even had power toughness it wouldn't save him from condition damage, nor would he actually deal the 1k damage as he needs power, ferocity and critical chance. And that is the problem with dire and that is the problem with how anet thinks condis should work = that's why condis are OP.
    You are right though, the toughness, defensive abilities and power damage are out of sync (since June 2015). That is a problem that needs to be adressed as well.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    one problem i see also is players want to use certain builds to fight the strong composition.

    i do it too.

    using power and boons versus condi teams are not easy unless blobs.

    fights are fun, healing and refreshes as well as bombs but, the chance to lose is always high.

    then we changed to scourge celestials. the fights where we normally get wrecked we immediately win.

    where we, a small team of 17 to 20 can face roll a group of similar to 30+. and thats just by spamming wells and sands.

    simply, some builds are familiar nd we want to play them and we can beat bad players with them but, fighting the great ones, meh. go condi even if you dislike it to win. =)

    tldr: some builds are just more efficient than others.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Eleazar.9478Eleazar.9478 Member ✭✭✭

    Just wanna through this out there this specific response was towards pve NOT wvw/pvp. There is another thread that talks about condition issues in wvw. lol context is your friend Mr outrage

  • @Eleazar.9478 said:
    Just wanna through this out there this specific response was towards pve NOT wvw/pvp. There is another thread that talks about condition issues in wvw. lol context is your friend Mr outrage

    ^this

    I'm really not sure why this thread exists at all. Purely to antagonize? I'm not saying that there isn't an issue with condis in WvW, but the question from the AMA reads as follows.

    "What is the long-term goal for power vs. condi balance in PvE? For most classes right now, power builds aren't even aren't even close to doing competitive dps."

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/74qjlh/path_of_fire_devs_here_ask_us_anything/do0d2ny

    Now for the actual question regarding condis in WvW.

    "Thank you to the team for all the hard work put into PoF. I've been having a blast playing holosmith!

    Burning from Firebrand and Scourge is currently stacking faster than bleed in most large scale WvW fights and the damage coefficient causes the damage ramp up too fast. Can we expect to see a balance pass for WvW before the return to quarterly balance patches?"

    Irenio: We're looking at the condition damage issues that are inherent to the scaling number of players in WvW. Major mode-centric changes are a major part of balance patches and we'll be iterating through several potential changes specifically for WvW. I wouldn't expect huge mode-specific balance changes before the first post-PoF balance patch.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/74qjlh/path_of_fire_devs_here_ask_us_anything/do0cx4a

    Granted that this question was specific to Burning (and I still don't understand how Burning was ever allowed to become Bleed 2.0, the answer was PvE I believe), but we'll have to wait for the first balance patch and then we can grab the pitch forks and torches.

  • Jana.6831Jana.6831 Member ✭✭✭

    I get that this was specifically for PvE - but how comes condis outshine power in PvE? Can't we have an even in no matter what game mode?

  • @Jana.6831 said:
    I get that this was specifically for PvE - but how comes condis outshine power in PvE? Can't we have an even in no matter what game mode?

    I dont play PvE so this is an assumption. I would imagine in PvE that the only thing that matters is that the potential damage output is somewhat comparable across professions. The source of that damage is less important.

    Condis went on steroids a while back due in part to complaints that (certain?) condis we're less effective in PvE IIRC. Surprise surprise, the condition meta in WvW was born.

  • Dagger.2035Dagger.2035 Member ✭✭✭

    If ArenaNet identifies a condition problem in WvW I think it could be address by adding more access to group condition clears. The problem is that self targeted condition clears become less effective in group play when you have multiple sources of condition damage. Hopefully, converting some of these skill/traits to also clear conditions on allies will not affect small-scale fights, but keep conditions under control in large-scale fights. The same logic could also be applied to sources of resistance.

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  • Jana.6831Jana.6831 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2017

    @Sagramor.7395 said:
    I dont play PvE so this is an assumption. I would imagine in PvE that the only thing that matters is that the potential damage output is somewhat comparable across professions. The source of that damage is less important.

    Condis went on steroids a while back due in part to complaints that (certain?) condis we're less effective in PvE IIRC. Surprise surprise, the condition meta in WvW was born.

    My question was rhetorical because if anet think that condi needs 1k condi damage over a time of x, so the same as a power build does, then something doesn't add up when raids are only cleared by condition builds. I saw some DPS meters for raids - I have no idea whether or not it was biased and also no idea of the skill level of those who tested it - a lot of people think that power thief is best when only using autoattack which is wrong in my book (that I can tell, I can't talk about other classes in that regard and I don't know the exact parameters/playstyles they were using) - but the condi builds outdamaged power greatly. And if that really is true then anet need to go back to the drawing boards, because replacing the power meta with a condi meta while WvW and PvE share the same 'balance' is kind of a fail. And while they're at it they could also have a look at the damage output in WvW specifically and if that really was what they intended their game to be like.

    ETA: Granted, bosses don't have condi clears. But still.

  • xDudisx.5914xDudisx.5914 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2017

    If condi are supposed to be dmg over time why did they make burn hit so hard? Burn is pretty much spike dmg in the form of a condition.

  • Jana.6831Jana.6831 Member ✭✭✭

    @xDudisx.5914 said:
    If condi are supposed to be dmg over time why did they make burn hit so hard? Burn is pretty much spike dmg in the form of a condition.

    They said they made it hit that hard because it was so rare.
    Don't look at me - that's what they said!

  • FaboBabo.3581FaboBabo.3581 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Again ; in a 50 v 50 war u cant expect less then 30 torment , 30 burn 30 confu etc.

    Its a war dude...

    Whenever ur outnumbered stacks will rise.

    What about dodging , Blocks etc to prevent condis ?

    One shot someone in 0,1 sec from Stealth is totally balanced , but applying condis to kill someone in the next 3 seconds is so unfair ?

    Mirage since Day 1 - It got better!

  • FaboBabo.3581FaboBabo.3581 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jana.6831 said:

    @xDudisx.5914 said:
    If condi are supposed to be dmg over time why did they make burn hit so hard? Burn is pretty much spike dmg in the form of a condition.

    They said they made it hit that hard because it was so rare.
    Don't look at me - that's what they said!

    Because even 20 stacks of burn on ma huge condi damage build is 8 k per second.

    Burst is 20k in 0.1 second

    Mirage since Day 1 - It got better!

  • Conncept.7638Conncept.7638 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2017

    The other flaw I see in their analogy is that, to maximize power damage, you have to sacrifice every stat, while to maximize condition damage, you only have to sacrifice two out of three. If condition damage also required three stats, then sure I could see a 1:1 ratio between them with the only difference being burst vs over time, but at a 1:1 damage ratio conditions have a clear and consistent advantage because of their ability to stack a defensive stat, one of whose sole purpose is to mitigate power damage.

    However, I feel I have to point out, stop using WvW as an example. The devs stated, day one, no earlier, before launch, that WvW was NOT EVER ever going to be balanced, that it was supposed to represent warfare, not competition, the difference being that in the former, you are encouraged to take and abuse every advantage given to you and purposely NOT meet your enemy on an even playing field.

  • Jana.6831Jana.6831 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2017

    @Conncept.7638 said:
    However, I feel I have to point out, stop using WvW as an example. The devs stated, day one, no earlier, before launch, that WvW was NOT EVER ever going to be balanced, that it was supposed to represent warfare, not competition, the difference being that in the former, you are encouraged to take and abuse every advantage given to you and purposely NOT meet your enemy on an even playing field.

    With that I guess they meant blob balance but not class balance. Which makes sense and wvw made sense as long as we had class balance coming from PvP - nowadays PvP has got its complete own balance.

    ETA: Just ask yourself: Does the game how it is now make any sense? Really, do you want people to dismiss combos which you had in the game but which are long forgotten and rather have them facerolling their keyboards while their passives and OP skills play the game for them? It's easy to dismiss WvW as "never meant to be balanced" but was that really what they wanted? To bomb first or die?!

  • @Jana.6831 said:

    @xDudisx.5914 said:
    If condi are supposed to be dmg over time why did they make burn hit so hard? Burn is pretty much spike dmg in the form of a condition.

    They said they made it hit that hard because it was so rare.
    Don't look at me - that's what they said!

    Remember when Burn wasn't a stacking Condi and Confusion hit like a truck with zero condition damage?

    I really need to go back and look at the conversations around the time of some of those changes.

  • Conncept.7638Conncept.7638 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2017

    @Jana.6831 said:

    ETA: Just ask yourself: Does the game how it is now make any sense? Really, do you want people to dismiss combos which you had in the game but which are long forgotten and rather have them facerolling their keyboards while their passives and OP skills play the game for them? It's easy to dismiss WvW as "never meant to be balanced" but was that really what they wanted? To bomb first or die?!

    No I get it, but at the same time, for me, WvW has always felt that way through every meta.

    I tried to get in to WvW for the first two or so years, gave up on it, and then gave it a second and third shot after some major updates. And I always leave for the same reason, it doesn't feel like epic scale warfare, I go into it expecting to be a soldier in some epic conflict like the battle of Helms Deep. And I always end up leaving feeling like I just lost a foodfight in a gradeschool cafeteria, even when we won.

    Clipping, stacking, porting, ressing, LoS, PBAoE, and a hundred other mechanics completely ruin any sense of epic scale; while a lack of any organizational tools boils strategy down to throwing sparks at an amalgamous blob, while standing in another amalgamous blob, until one side runs out of bodies.

  • I find the current state of condi and power very satisfying right now.

    I'm competing with Scourge DPS on a base guard running marauders and cele.

    WvW feels more balanced now than ever.

  • Jana.6831Jana.6831 Member ✭✭✭

    @Conncept.7638 said:

    @Jana.6831 said:

    ETA: Just ask yourself: Does the game how it is now make any sense? Really, do you want people to dismiss combos which you had in the game but which are long forgotten and rather have them facerolling their keyboards while their passives and OP skills play the game for them? It's easy to dismiss WvW as "never meant to be balanced" but was that really what they wanted? To bomb first or die?!

    No I get it, but at the same time, for me, WvW has always felt that way through every meta.

    I tried to get in to WvW for the first two or so years, gave up on it, and then gave it a second and third shot after some major updates. And I always leave for the same reason, it doesn't feel like epic scale warfare, I go into it expecting to be a soldier in some epic conflict like the battle of Helms Deep. And I always end up leaving feeling like I just lost a foodfight in a gradeschool cafeteria, even when we won.

    Clipping, stacking, porting, ressing, LoS, and a hundred other mechanics completely ruin any sense of epic scale, while a lack of any organizational tools boils strategy down to throwing sparks at an amalgamous blob, while standing in another amalgamous blob, until one side runs out of bodies.

    Yeah, probably if you had any expectations like real warfare it is a disappointment. (I have no idea what clipping is, btw asking myself that for some years now). We used a lot of what you've listed as strategies for a long time "Yo guys, they're rezzing, bomb them" "Banner lord" "WP Cooldown 3..2..SPPAAMMM" - I had a blast and did feel like a soldier (in zerkers) for the longest time. As long as there were strategies. The foodfight thingy has been like that for a while, yes, and that was what I meant - facerolling, dismissing all strategy, not caring about teamwork, smashing the buttons will do.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    bwahahaha it's so sad how much conditions have taken over this game, instant hit with like 8 conditions every time you get into battle. I'm on the verge of crying from laughter.

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  • Well, the situation ATM is very weak on the strategy side. The sad reality now is the more condi Scourges you have the better off you are. The issue is with the scaling. Some classes do ok 1v1 and in small scale fights, and some which are the biggest issues now scale with numbers too much. If I fight a scourge I feel like having 50/50. If I fight 30 of me vs 30 scourges my chance to win 0%. ATM the situation is being forced back to the pirate-ship meta. Its because of the long range bombs of the scourges having the ability to instantkill anyone who tried to push, and even if you miraculously get trough, the enemy just have to pop winds of disenchantments at the direction you are pushing and meanwhile their necros just keep bombing and its over. Realistically its over even earlier cause the initial long range bomb has its own boonrip and then you get feared and GG. There is no outsustaining this, which so much boonrip and so much condi, its ATM not possible to outsustain the condi blobs. So it all degenerated to have more scourges than the enemy, leading to meh fights where if you are not one of them you feel pretty useless.

    Easy solution would be to make their skills projectiles. There is so much anti-projectile now, yet it hinders mostly the classes that are already having problems. Necro does not care, marks and wells are not projectiles. Or make resistance unrippable and preventing boonrip while its active for example. One change and it would completely change the status quo while changing little on the PVE scene.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2017

    The exponential potency of damage output as Numbers increase has been an issue with all manner of games for a long long time. This was an issue in old board games I used to play where people would simply learn after a time that just piling all of your Chits into bigger and bigger stacks could guarantee victory. If damage must be greater then defense at the 1v1 level (which it must be or we would just never be able to down anyone) then it becomes exponentially more so as there more players involved.

    This definitely manifests itself with Conditions in WvW but is not limited to Conditions.

    I do recollect a few ways some of these old games addressed this. In one old space empire game when too many ships congregated in one place there was a risk of tremendous fluctuations in local space due to all of the energy being exerted and this could lead to massive loss of vessels on either side.

    In a magic game , too much use of MANA from a local environ would deplete the same wherein all manner of spells would begin to fail or feedback on the caster.

    I am not sure of what can be made a fix for WvW.

  • ArmageddonAsh.6430ArmageddonAsh.6430 Member ✭✭✭✭

    "Power is intended to be more spike damage-centric. Condi more ramping sustained damage. Currently there are some issues with how quickly condition damage can be spiked up, negating the benefits of power damage. If I presented you with a power skill that dealt 1,000 damage instantaneously and a condition one that dealt 1,000 damage over 4 seconds there wouldn’t be a question about what build to choose; you’d go with the instant option every time. Not counting other effects, condition skills must inflict more damage over their duration in order to make power vs. condi into a real choice."

    Except this isnt the case. condition builds do Way, way, way more damage over that 4 seconds. I know the 1,000 damage is an example. The problem is condition builds do HUGE amounts of damage with EACH condition, given that you can have like 4 or 5 conditions applied to you within the first second a fight starts that can lead to huge burst damage. It is just not viable and i think its a sign they have ZERO intention of fixing what is wrong with conditions and have been wrong with conditions ever since THEY decided to HUGELY increase condition damage, do very little about application (being too high!) and removal (being too low!)

    Also, given that Condi builds are meant to SLOWLY whittle away the health of an enemy while being tanky to survive the damage, Condition damage can be as high if not HIGHER than bursat damage of most non-condition builds while being full bunker stats while the power builds need THREE stats in order to actually deal damage.

    Basically Condition builds deal as good if not better burst damage, better sustained damage while having the bunker stats to keep them alive much longer than power builds can because they have to sacrifice survivability in order to deal damage - unlike condi builds that need ONE stat and then go bunker on many others.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There was a lot of realty bad logic on the ama anet is comply out of touch with wvw population. Need to forces anet devs to play on all the survers and stop all playing on 2 -3 of them thinking that how every one plays and what every one has to play with / vs.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2017

    I think the single largest Culprit is not the conditions themselves but the way they can be applied at long range via persistent AOE traits and utilities that can all overlap one another. In a fight where there just single target skills used , people can in fact be focused down but focusing one one single target expends resources on that single target even as others in the enemy group are untouched. This can lead to much more interesting battles IMO.

    Aoe on the other hand allows a person to attack numerous enemies at once and the overlapping of the AOE skills at extreme range just compounds the problem. Entire groups can be downed with the same expenditure of resources a single target type skill might have used to down one. As the number in a given group grows, the damage output jumps while the health of the target remains the same . I really do not think there as much an issue with Condition burst on a single target as there is with that same burst on a multiple of enemies.

  • Jana.6831Jana.6831 Member ✭✭✭

    That is a bit more complictaed, I guess: The bigger the group, the more clears (usually). It's just too much of everything (stun, condi bombs, boonstrip, boons, passives and so on) and that even small scale and 1 vs 1.

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The only Condi build I can't stand atm is staff trailblazer reaper. I was so happy when I saw scourge, knowing all the condi facetankers would be loosing deathly chill and "second health bar" mode. Burn guards and Condi mesmers just don't have the cover, which gives players an actual chance to clear with basic cast time cleanse skills like Renewing Wave.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Justine.6351 said:
    The only Condi build I can't stand atm is staff trailblazer reaper. I was so happy when I saw scourge, knowing all the condi facetankers would be loosing deathly chill and "second health bar" mode. Burn guards and Condi mesmers just don't have the cover, which gives players an actual chance to clear with basic cast time cleanse skills like Renewing Wave.

    Reaper chilling death still there and ppl would run it if it was the best but scorges is better at doing condis in wvw due to its added strip and over all stronger condis (bleed is the weakest condi and it has no effect). At the very least reaper chilling death build was mostly 2 dmg condis and a few cover but all deal able with effects like reiscense now that boon does not even work and you cant simply out clear the number of condis types coming from scorges.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭

    All they have to do is tone down Condi application by a good amount and then scale back some of the Condi clears/resistance/Boon application uptime and boom it will fix quite a few issues right off the bat especially if they actually want Condis to be damage over time like they stated, but as it stands right now the amount of Condi application is way to high to be considered Damage over time.

  • OriOri.8724OriOri.8724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @FaboBabo.3581 said:

    @Jana.6831 said:

    @xDudisx.5914 said:
    If condi are supposed to be dmg over time why did they make burn hit so hard? Burn is pretty much spike dmg in the form of a condition.

    They said they made it hit that hard because it was so rare.
    Don't look at me - that's what they said!

    Because even 20 stacks of burn on ma huge condi damage build is 8 k per second.

    Burst is 20k in 0.1 second

    While the power burst damage happens faster, you conveniently ignored the fact that once the power burst is over, after that 0.1 seconds, no more burst damage is being dealt. After that condi burst is over, you are still taking 8k damage every second from attacks that already happened.

    Eyyyy I unlocked signatures

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2017

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:
    All they have to do is tone down Condi application by a good amount and then scale back some of the Condi clears/resistance/Boon application uptime and boom it will fix quite a few issues right off the bat especially if they actually want Condis to be damage over time like they stated, but as it stands right now the amount of Condi application is way to high to be considered Damage over time.

    There is an issue with "toning down th application of conditions". That being on any given build there has to be something in a waponset that applies conditions Further to that it can not be a single condition or cleanses , even if lessened would take over. If you remove all condition apps from the AA and put them on cooldown skills, they will just never ramp up in a reasonable amount of time in order to do damage.

    This means power builds will overwhelm the Condition build before that can ever occur. I know how quickly a power build can take someone down in Dire and contrary to claims made by others Dire does not make a person Godlike. It just might take one or two bursts more to melt them down. If Condition builds damaged is scaled back to too great a degree, then all manner of changes would have to be made to skills so as to allow them the added time they would need to survive against a power build. This would generally mean more stealth, more blocks. more evades and then the cycle of "block spam, evade spam. projectile hate" starts up again.

    I think that condition application on a !v! basis is fin outside maybe one or two skills that are outliers. I can tweak the builds I am familiar with to do as well as can be expected versus a condition build while I am power. If condition application was out of control I would not be able to do this.By the same token in that 1v1 if the condition damage output of those I face in power were curtailed they would be much easier kills. The issue arises in larger group fights as numbers on either side increase. Everything goes out of whack.

    We pretty well have the same amount of health points today as on launch even as the ability of a GROUP to lay down damage against many numbers at once with an ever greater frequency has exploded. The result is what we see today. Some game mechanic (and I know not what) has to be introduced to curtail group damage output and especially the fire and forget type stuff.

  • @Silver.2076 said:
    Sometimes I think they don't understand their own game mechanics and mathematics. Or it's just the wrong people answering.

    I think that all the time :(

  • @HitmanHaydon.1053 said:

    @Silver.2076 said:
    Sometimes I think they don't understand their own game mechanics and mathematics. Or it's just the wrong people answering.

    I think that all the time :(

    And now we have verification

    "Sorry – it is NOT intended that stacking multiple shades compounds their effects. We’re going to make changes while keeping a close eye on the power of the Scourge across game modes and adjust it over time accordingly. Frankly, the Sand Shades were one of the most controversial (and dangerous!) mechanics we added with the Path of Fire Elite Specs."

  • @FaboBabo.3581 said:
    Again ; in a 50 v 50 war u cant expect less then 30 torment , 30 burn 30 confu etc.

    Its a war dude...

    Whenever ur outnumbered stacks will rise.

    What about dodging , Blocks etc to prevent condis ?

    One shot someone in 0,1 sec from Stealth is totally balanced , but applying condis to kill someone in the next 3 seconds is so unfair ?

    Totally agree.. kitten do you want??..

    People want blob fights but complain too many ppl are using condi builds now instead of power. Deal with it, it's not 2012 where power was the thing.

    Learn to use your condi clears, create a build that has more condi clear, get in a squad and make the ideal sub groups, join TS, and stay on tag.

  • Just copying from another post in a similar thread.

    AMA: "Sorry – it is NOT intended that stacking multiple shades compounds their effects. We’re going to make changes while keeping a close eye on the power of the Scourge across game modes and adjust it over time accordingly. Frankly, the Sand Shades were one of the most controversial (and dangerous!) mechanics we added with the Path of Fire Elite Specs."

    How could that possibly be NOT intentional. Kinda obvious design feature. Anyone who plays the class for 2 minutes sees it and it's in the skill descriptions. And if it wasn't intended, it just goes to show how much of a rush they were to get this kitten out there rather than delaying the release so this stuff was right.

    AMA: "What is the long-term goal for power vs. condi balance in PvE – Power is intended to be more spike damage-centric. Condi more ramping sustained damage. Currently there are some issues with how quickly condition damage can be spiked up, negating the benefits of power damage. If I presented you with a power skill that dealt 1,000 damage instantaneously and a condition one that dealt 1,000 damage over 4 seconds there wouldn’t be a question about what build to choose; you’d go with the instant option every time. Not counting other effects, condition skills must inflict more damage over their duration in order to make power vs. condi into a real choice. [snip]"

    Notice how it's PvE specifically mentioned.

    I mean, duh. The point is not to balance to the DPS per actual second, but over a longer period of time. I don't think anyone anywhere was advocating that. Kinda simple, but for a game that's been out for 5 years, I don't see why this is revisited again and again. Why is is so hard to see the dps of these condi builds. I mean, my firebrand does over 20K ticks of burning plus its power damage for a few seconds then drops down to 12K bruning plus power damage when I have full might stacks. What power profession even comes close to that? none.

    This is also another reason to split PvP/WvW from PvE as PvE does not have the condi clears of PvP/WvW. Another no brainer, but they keep trying to balance for all. I'd even argue that over time, All classes should do the same dps, condi or power. That's how, well, pretty much, all games are. Then it comes down to more player skill or the situation. You choose condi, power, one classes skills or another depending on what you're fighting. For example, Power professions are supposed to have some skills that hit hard to exploit opportunities. If one has to spend a lot of down time away form an enemy, then condi is better. But if they want condi to do more damage than power, then PvE raids will continue to just want condi dps. It has to be even over a long period.

    I swear. I'm so tired of this.

  • there is the simple solution of reducing condi damage then allowing it to crit so that condi builds also need a zerker style build to get max damage. Currently Condi and bunker can be in the same build. while Zerker is anything but bunker.

  • @Rangerdeity.5847 said:
    there is the simple solution of reducing condi damage then allowing it to crit so that condi builds also need a zerker style build to get max damage. Currently Condi and bunker can be in the same build. while Zerker is anything but bunker.

    This is not the answer to the current state of the Scourge (so aptly named). Especially concerning large scale fights.

  • @Sagramor.7395 said:

    @Rangerdeity.5847 said:
    there is the simple solution of reducing condi damage then allowing it to crit so that condi builds also need a zerker style build to get max damage. Currently Condi and bunker can be in the same build. while Zerker is anything but bunker.

    This is not the answer to the current state of the Scourge (so aptly named). Especially concerning large scale fights.

    point out any gameplay scenario where Condi damage being dependant on precision and ferocity same as power damage would make the game anything other than easier to balance.

  • @Rangerdeity.5847 said:

    @Sagramor.7395 said:

    @Rangerdeity.5847 said:
    there is the simple solution of reducing condi damage then allowing it to crit so that condi builds also need a zerker style build to get max damage. Currently Condi and bunker can be in the same build. while Zerker is anything but bunker.

    This is not the answer to the current state of the Scourge (so aptly named). Especially concerning large scale fights.

    point out any gameplay scenario where Condi damage being dependant on precision and ferocity same as power damage would make the game anything other than easier to balance.

    When blob 1 and blob 2 are dancing around out of range of each other afraid to engage because of the giant Scourge bomb between the two. That will not change if you force Condi players to play zerk equivalent stats for condi. A blob right now can still be flanked and a Scourge being focused can be taken down regardless of Dire/Trailblazer.

    It's a bit more complicated of a fix especially when anet is saying things like this.

    Sorry – it is NOT intended that stacking multiple shades compounds their effects. We’re going to make changes while keeping a close eye on the power of the Scourge across game modes and adjust it over time accordingly. Frankly, the Sand Shades were one of the most controversial (and dangerous!) mechanics we added with the Path of Fire Elite Specs.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2017

    Anet still not learning. Same talks about the same problems with conditions....don't bother.

    "You Can Not Change Someone Who Doesn't See An Issue In Their Actions"

  • Jana.6831Jana.6831 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2017

    @Sagramor.7395 said:
    When blob 1 and blob 2 are dancing around out of range of each other afraid to engage because of the giant Scourge bomb between the two. That will not change if you force Condi players to play zerk equivalent stats for condi. A blob right now can still be flanked and a Scourge being focused can be taken down regardless of Dire/Trailblazer.

    If condi damage were dependend on more than only condi damage they'd have to chose to sacrifice one of their stats for a higher damage. Of course you're right that that wouldn't change the bombs inbetween two blobs, but they probably wouldn't hurt that hard, or the condi players would be taken out faster. While it doesn't fix everything, it still is something that needs to be considered when it comes to condis.

  • @Jana.6831 said:

    @Sagramor.7395 said:
    When blob 1 and blob 2 are dancing around out of range of each other afraid to engage because of the giant Scourge bomb between the two. That will not change if you force Condi players to play zerk equivalent stats for condi. A blob right now can still be flanked and a Scourge being focused can be taken down regardless of Dire/Trailblazer.

    If condi damage were dependend on more than only condi damage they'd have to chose to sacrifice one of their stats for a higher damage. Of course you're right that that wouldn't change the bombs inbetween two blobs, but they probably wouldn't hurt that hard, or the condi players would be taken out faster. While it doesn't fix everything, it still is something that needs to be considered when it comes to condis.

    Sure it would be nice if Condi builds had to put as much of their status budget into damage as Power builds to get the same damage output, but that isn't the silver bullet. And do you really want condis to crit? I'm pretty sure I don't.

    Fixing condis will have to be a multifaceted solution. Starting with fixing Scourge because it appears the current WvW meta was very much not intended.

  • xDudisx.5914xDudisx.5914 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2017

    @Jana.6831 said:

    @xDudisx.5914 said:
    If condi are supposed to be dmg over time why did they make burn hit so hard? Burn is pretty much spike dmg in the form of a condition.

    They said they made it hit that hard because it was so rare.
    Don't look at me - that's what they said!

    Well it WAS rare years ago. Few classes had it, and it was present on few skills.

    @ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

    "Power is intended to be more spike damage-centric. Condi more ramping sustained damage. Currently there are some issues with how quickly condition damage can be spiked up, negating the benefits of power damage. If I presented you with a power skill that dealt 1,000 damage instantaneously and a condition one that dealt 1,000 damage over 4 seconds there wouldn’t be a question about what build to choose; you’d go with the instant option every time. Not counting other effects, condition skills must inflict more damage over their duration in order to make power vs. condi into a real choice."

    Except this isnt the case. condition builds do Way, way, way more damage over that 4 seconds. I know the 1,000 damage is an example. The problem is condition builds do HUGE amounts of damage with EACH condition, given that you can have like 4 or 5 conditions applied to you within the first second a fight starts that can lead to huge burst damage. It is just not viable and i think its a sign they have ZERO intention of fixing what is wrong with conditions and have been wrong with conditions ever since THEY decided to HUGELY increase condition damage, do very little about application (being too high!) and removal (being too low!)

    Also, given that Condi builds are meant to SLOWLY whittle away the health of an enemy while being tanky to survive the damage, Condition damage can be as high if not HIGHER than bursat damage of most non-condition builds while being full bunker stats while the power builds need THREE stats in order to actually deal damage.

    Basically Condition builds deal as good if not better burst damage, better sustained damage while having the bunker stats to keep them alive much longer than power builds can because they have to sacrifice survivability in order to deal damage - unlike condi builds that need ONE stat and then go bunker on many others.

    The number of condi clears if fine. Increasing it would be fixing a mistake with another one. They should reduce the number of condi sources. Right now there are way to many traits and minor things that proc condis way too fast making it hard to clear.

    Not only condi builds do too much dmg, they also have the extra benefits that power does not. Like poison cutting your healing. They tend to have more condi duration that makes the non damaging condis also stronger than for power based users.