AMA(ANets response on condition)

"Power is intended to be more spike damage-centric. Condi more ramping sustained damage. Currently there are some issues with how quickly condition damage can be spiked up, negating the benefits of power damage. If I presented you with a power skill that dealt 1,000 damage instantaneously and a condition one that dealt 1,000 damage over 4 seconds there wouldn’t be a question about what build to choose; you’d go with the instant option every time. Not counting other effects, condition skills must inflict more damage over their duration in order to make power vs. condi into a real choice."

Arena Net we get that. Thank you for the response.

-You still have it wrong and have no idea what people have been complaining about.

Problem 1: Condition Application -> When you have to blow all your cool downs to fight a condition build or literally build yourself around more than 2 cleanses or even 3 cleanses because 2 or 3 cleanses are just not enough. Thats a problem.

Problem 2: Tanky yet stronk damage -> Arena Net the spike with power you are talking about; to get that spike we players have to run zerk or marauders while you can achieve same spike or better with condi builds while running a lot more tanky and sustain.

Problem 3: Condition stack limit -> The condition not having stack limit makes sense in PvE but when you come into WvW and see 1 person having 20 stacks of burn, 30 bleeding, 30 torment and other cancer thats you straight up bs.

Also arena net your 1000 DPS comparison is kind of bs because if a power can spike 1000 per second and condi doing 1000 over the period of 4 second so thats like 250 spike per second but its not 1 condition that does that tho in WvW its more than 1 condition that can tik 250 per second so thats 4k dps over the span of 4 seconds. Makes sense doesnt it? Now how does 2 or 3 condi ticking for 1000 each second while power is just 1 autos or other skills doing 1k dps each second makes sense?

Problem 4 LagYou can tell when a Condi heavy group zones in, the map starts to run poorly. When all those conditions start flying it messes with a glass power build in a major way.. There's no room to eat a tick in a power build, It's so reliably bad on reset now that I don't bother and play something else.

Indeed that is a very odd reply by Anet. They should know by now that the issue is around OP gear (trailblazers/dire) and the amount of condis certain rather ovious classes poop out. We have noted this for a long time now.

Wait on second thought thats not very odd. Anet still havent got a clue about WvW.

ANet's point of condi/power makes sense for the global philosophy, but it's too generic to correctly apply to the real game situation... Namely : condition stacks can quickly shift things towards more condition effectiveness. Current skill options, alongside the (still) fairly ease to sustain them (lack of cleanse, and lots of condi duration), are clearly in favor of stacking. Add to this the "more players = multiplication" and this gives condi bombs.

@CrimeMaker.8612 said:Problem 1: Condition Application -> When you have to blow all your cool downs to fight a condition build or literally build yourself around more than 2 cleanses or even 3 cleanses because 2 or 3 cleanses are just not enough. Thats a problem.

This is true, and should also be thought relatively to stunlocks.

@CrimeMaker.8612 said:Problem 2: Tanky yet stronk damage -> Arena Net the spike with power you are talking about; to get that spike we players have to run zerk or marauders while you can achieve same spike or better with condi builds while running a lot more tanky and sustain.

I mildly disagree with that. Theoretically, the difference between a full soldier and a full zerk gear (against a test dummy) is only the amount of "spikes" you need to land. Issue is opponents aren't test dummies, but also hit you. So, to me, this is more an issue of too much damage delt, and overall uselessness of sustain stats for power builds. That and the recurring idea in player's mind that a fight must not last longer than 2 spikes.

@CrimeMaker.8612 said:Problem 3: Condition stack limit -> The condition not having stack limit makes sense in PvE but when you come into WvW and see 1 person having 20 stacks of burn, 30 bleeding, 30 torment and other cancer thats you straight up bs.

I agree with that. My suggestion for a solution is a change of the formula. Currently, it's "That condition damage" times "Amount of stacks". It should be a formula with a max value. For example : Damage = "Max damage allowed for that condi" times (1 - exp(- "Growing constant" times "Amount of stacks")). There're other options as well. With such a formula, damage per tick grows quickly with the first ticks, but the last ones don't add that much damage (and it can be tweaked through the growing constant). That way, there'd be a hard cap for each condi's damage.

Their perception of conditions is kind of very one dimensional. If you block or dodge a power strike you won't be hit. Dodging condition appliance is somewhat harder though, especially if it's necro fields which are plastering everything (and lets no forget about the passive condi application of condi runes). So, you get conditions on you, no matter what. But condition removal is somewhat selective. Not all heals clear all conditions and condi clear over time one removes the most recent condition. So based on that alone condi does way more damage than power.

Do keep in mind they also said:

We're looking at the condition damage issues that are inherent to the scaling number of players in WvW. Major mode-centric changes are a major part of balance patches and we'll be iterating through several potential changes specifically for WvW. I wouldn't expect huge mode-specific balance changes before the first post-PoF balance patch.

But that only really addresses part of the problem. The second point in the OP is honestly my biggest issue with condition builds right now. From a large fight perspective, main damage dealers are running around with higher defensive stats than a 2014 frontline guard, while able to literally melt enemies. That's just not reasonable.The balance between damage and self sustain is completely messed up here.

@ThomasC.1056 said:I mildly disagree with that. Theoretically, the difference between a full soldier and a full zerk gear (against a test dummy) is only the amount of "spikes" you need to land. Issue is opponents aren't test dummies, but also hit you. So, to me, this is more an issue of too much damage delt, and overall uselessness of sustain stats for power builds. That and the recurring idea in player's mind that a fight must not last longer than 2 spikes.

I kind of see what you mean, but I don't really follow the argument in the context of the thread. I think the complaint is more along the lines of this: Put soldier's gear on a power build and you realistically won't be able to kill anything. Put Dire gear on a condi build and you'll still have enough damage to kill anything that isn't specifically built to counter you.

Sometimes I think they don't understand their own game mechanics and mathematics. Or it's just the wrong people answering.

@vana.5467 said:

@ThomasC.1056 said:I mildly disagree with that. Theoretically, the difference between a full soldier and a full zerk gear (against a test dummy) is only the amount of "spikes" you need to land. Issue is opponents aren't test dummies, but also hit you. So, to me, this is more an issue of too much damage delt, and overall uselessness of sustain stats for power builds. That and the recurring idea in player's mind that a fight must not last longer than 2 spikes.

You're right a soldier geared power spec wouldn't be able to kill as reliably as a zerker one in the WvW context. Now, my point is : that difference is not an issue related to condis, but to other mechanics like the potency of survivability stats vs. offensives specifically for power specs. In a nutshell : the current context is "the best defense is attack" for power specs. I think it's a bad thing, because it promotes fast fights, stunlocks and gimmicky builds. But that's only my opinion on that point.

@ThomasC.1056 said:You're right a soldier geared power spec wouldn't be able to kill as reliably as a zerker one in the WvW context. Now, my point is : that difference is not an issue related to condis, but to other mechanics like the potency of survivability stats vs. offensives specifically for power specs. In a nutshell : the current context is "the best defense is attack" for power specs. I think it's a bad thing, because it promotes fast fights, stunlocks and gimmicky builds. But that's only my opinion on that point.

Yeah but if you now get the curve from that you'll see that you in theory agree with the OP.Condi only needs condi damage. Anet thinks Condi Duration isn't a thing as stated in the OP, so dire is vitality, thoughness and condition power and condi deals their 1k of condition damage. The 1k raw damage power though has to get through the toughness, has to cut the vitality, while even had power toughness it wouldn't save him from condition damage, nor would he actually deal the 1k damage as he needs power, ferocity and critical chance. And that is the problem with dire and that is the problem with how anet thinks condis should work = that's why condis are OP.You are right though, the toughness, defensive abilities and power damage are out of sync (since June 2015). That is a problem that needs to be adressed as well.

one problem i see also is players want to use certain builds to fight the strong composition.

i do it too.

using power and boons versus condi teams are not easy unless blobs.

fights are fun, healing and refreshes as well as bombs but, the chance to lose is always high.

then we changed to scourge celestials. the fights where we normally get wrecked we immediately win.

where we, a small team of 17 to 20 can face roll a group of similar to 30+. and thats just by spamming wells and sands.

simply, some builds are familiar nd we want to play them and we can beat bad players with them but, fighting the great ones, meh. go condi even if you dislike it to win. =)

tldr: some builds are just more efficient than others.

Just wanna through this out there this specific response was towards pve NOT wvw/pvp. There is another thread that talks about condition issues in wvw. lol context is your friend Mr outrage

@Eleazar.9478 said:Just wanna through this out there this specific response was towards pve NOT wvw/pvp. There is another thread that talks about condition issues in wvw. lol context is your friend Mr outrage

^this

I'm really not sure why this thread exists at all. Purely to antagonize? I'm not saying that there isn't an issue with condis in WvW, but the question from the AMA reads as follows.

"What is the long-term goal for power vs. condi balance in PvE? For most classes right now, power builds aren't even aren't even close to doing competitive dps."

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/74qjlh/path_of_fire_devs_here_ask_us_anything/do0d2ny

Now for the actual question regarding condis in WvW.

"Thank you to the team for all the hard work put into PoF. I've been having a blast playing holosmith!

Burning from Firebrand and Scourge is currently stacking faster than bleed in most large scale WvW fights and the damage coefficient causes the damage ramp up too fast. Can we expect to see a balance pass for WvW before the return to quarterly balance patches?"

Irenio: We're looking at the condition damage issues that are inherent to the scaling number of players in WvW. Major mode-centric changes are a major part of balance patches and we'll be iterating through several potential changes specifically for WvW. I wouldn't expect huge mode-specific balance changes before the first post-PoF balance patch.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/74qjlh/path_of_fire_devs_here_ask_us_anything/do0cx4a

Granted that this question was specific to Burning (and I still don't understand how Burning was ever allowed to become Bleed 2.0, the answer was PvE I believe), but we'll have to wait for the first balance patch and then we can grab the pitch forks and torches.

I get that this was specifically for PvE - but how comes condis outshine power in PvE? Can't we have an even in no matter what game mode?

@Jana.6831 said:I get that this was specifically for PvE - but how comes condis outshine power in PvE? Can't we have an even in no matter what game mode?

I dont play PvE so this is an assumption. I would imagine in PvE that the only thing that matters is that the potential damage output is somewhat comparable across professions. The source of that damage is less important.

Condis went on steroids a while back due in part to complaints that (certain?) condis we're less effective in PvE IIRC. Surprise surprise, the condition meta in WvW was born.

If ArenaNet identifies a condition problem in WvW I think it could be address by adding more access to group condition clears. The problem is that self targeted condition clears become less effective in group play when you have multiple sources of condition damage. Hopefully, converting some of these skill/traits to also clear conditions on allies will not affect small-scale fights, but keep conditions under control in large-scale fights. The same logic could also be applied to sources of resistance.

@Sagramor.7395 said:I dont play PvE so this is an assumption. I would imagine in PvE that the only thing that matters is that the potential damage output is somewhat comparable across professions. The source of that damage is less important.

Condis went on steroids a while back due in part to complaints that (certain?) condis we're less effective in PvE IIRC. Surprise surprise, the condition meta in WvW was born.My question was rhetorical because if anet think that condi needs 1k condi damage over a time of x, so the same as a power build does, then something doesn't add up when raids are only cleared by condition builds. I saw some DPS meters for raids - I have no idea whether or not it was biased and also no idea of the skill level of those who tested it - a lot of people think that power thief is best when only using autoattack which is wrong in my book (that I can tell, I can't talk about other classes in that regard and I don't know the exact parameters/playstyles they were using) - but the condi builds outdamaged power greatly. And if that really is true then anet need to go back to the drawing boards, because replacing the power meta with a condi meta while WvW and PvE share the same 'balance' is kind of a fail. And while they're at it they could also have a look at the damage output in WvW specifically and if that really was what they intended their game to be like.

ETA: Granted, bosses don't have condi clears. But still.

If condi are supposed to be dmg over time why did they make burn hit so hard? Burn is pretty much spike dmg in the form of a condition.

@xDudisx.5914 said:If condi are supposed to be dmg over time why did they make burn hit so hard? Burn is pretty much spike dmg in the form of a condition.They said they made it hit that hard because it was so rare.Don't look at me - that's what they said!

Again ; in a 50 v 50 war u cant expect less then 30 torment , 30 burn 30 confu etc.

Its a war dude...

Whenever ur outnumbered stacks will rise.

What about dodging , Blocks etc to prevent condis ?

One shot someone in 0,1 sec from Stealth is totally balanced , but applying condis to kill someone in the next 3 seconds is so unfair ?

@Jana.6831 said:

@xDudisx.5914 said:If condi are supposed to be dmg over time why did they make burn hit so hard? Burn is pretty much spike dmg in the form of a condition.They said they made it hit that hard because it was so rare.Don't look at me - that's what they said!

Because even 20 stacks of burn on ma huge condi damage build is 8 k per second.

Burst is 20k in 0.1 second

The other flaw I see in their analogy is that, to maximize power damage, you have to sacrifice every stat, while to maximize condition damage, you only have to sacrifice two out of three. If condition damage also required three stats, then sure I could see a 1:1 ratio between them with the only difference being burst vs over time, but at a 1:1 damage ratio conditions have a clear and consistent advantage because of their ability to stack a defensive stat, one of whose sole purpose is to mitigate power damage.

However, I feel I have to point out, stop using WvW as an example. The devs stated, day one, no earlier, before launch, that WvW was NOT EVER ever going to be balanced, that it was supposed to represent warfare, not competition, the difference being that in the former, you are encouraged to take and abuse every advantage given to you and purposely NOT meet your enemy on an even playing field.

@Conncept.7638 said:However, I feel I have to point out, stop using WvW as an example. The devs stated, day one, no earlier, before launch, that WvW was NOT EVER ever going to be balanced, that it was supposed to represent warfare, not competition, the difference being that in the former, you are encouraged to take and abuse every advantage given to you and purposely NOT meet your enemy on an even playing field.

With that I guess they meant blob balance but not class balance. Which makes sense and wvw made sense as long as we had class balance coming from PvP - nowadays PvP has got its complete own balance.

ETA: Just ask yourself: Does the game how it is now make any sense? Really, do you want people to dismiss combos which you had in the game but which are long forgotten and rather have them facerolling their keyboards while their passives and OP skills play the game for them? It's easy to dismiss WvW as "never meant to be balanced" but was that really what they wanted? To bomb first or die?!

@Jana.6831 said:

@xDudisx.5914 said:If condi are supposed to be dmg over time why did they make burn hit so hard? Burn is pretty much spike dmg in the form of a condition.They said they made it hit that hard because it was so rare.Don't look at me - that's what they said!

Remember when Burn wasn't a stacking Condi and Confusion hit like a truck with zero condition damage?

I really need to go back and look at the conversations around the time of some of those changes.

@Jana.6831 said:

ETA: Just ask yourself: Does the game how it is now make any sense? Really, do you want people to dismiss combos which you had in the game but which are long forgotten and rather have them facerolling their keyboards while their passives and OP skills play the game for them? It's easy to dismiss WvW as "never meant to be balanced" but was that really what they wanted? To bomb first or die?!

No I get it, but at the same time, for me, WvW has always felt that way through every meta.

I tried to get in to WvW for the first two or so years, gave up on it, and then gave it a second and third shot after some major updates. And I always leave for the same reason, it doesn't feel like epic scale warfare, I go into it expecting to be a soldier in some epic conflict like the battle of Helms Deep. And I always end up leaving feeling like I just lost a foodfight in a gradeschool cafeteria, even when we won.

Clipping, stacking, porting, ressing, LoS, PBAoE, and a hundred other mechanics completely ruin any sense of epic scale; while a lack of any organizational tools boils strategy down to throwing sparks at an amalgamous blob, while standing in another amalgamous blob, until one side runs out of bodies.

I find the current state of condi and power very satisfying right now.

I'm competing with Scourge DPS on a base guard running marauders and cele.

WvW feels more balanced now than ever.