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  • mulzi.8273mulzi.8273 Member ✭✭✭

    Each of the classes utility skills that clear condis should clear ALL condis on self, not just one or two. I mean, cmon. As a scourge I can dump 4 condis of various stacks with one skill in 1 sec, then follow it up with another 2-3 condis with my next button push. Condi clears cannot keep up.

    If they want to keep the condi clear cooldowns (which are stupidily high in most cases), make them all clear all condis on use. Or drastically reduce the cooldowns on condi clear skills.

  • Kidel.2057Kidel.2057 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2017

    on bosses what really matters is the dps. I get that power is more spike, but the dps should be around the same. Ok, condi should be a bit higher, otherwise nobody would pick it, but not 1.5 times higher like it is now. Power Revenant can do at best 25k dps, while any condi class is around 40k. The only power class atm is weaver and that's a problem on its own since it's aroun 50k dps on big targets.

    Also boons like protect lower power damage by 30% while do nothing against condi damage. We have cleanses to fight conditions, but condi variety makes it useless. A Scourge can apply instantly all the conditions (except confusion), making almost any cleanse useless.

    Resistance was a nice addition to fight conditions, but it's too hard to apply and now it can be easily ripped off (again, also by Scourge).

    Again on condi variaty: each class should apply ONE condition, 2 at best, with exceptionally long cooldowns. Give bleed to thief, torment to revenant, burning to guardian, and so on. Exceptionally you can give a long cd skill that applies poison to thiefs and necros, but that's all.

  • ProverbsofHell.2307ProverbsofHell.2307 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The damage numbers are too high, just dial the numbers back. What's the problem Anet? This just sucks. Nobody is having fun. Look at how frustrated people are all over these forums, PLEASE fix this utter disaster.

  • A.Net obviously doesn't even play the same game. Condi's whittle slowly over time? Not in this meta - it is insta down.

    I hate to say it but A.Net is out of step with reality on condi's.

  • caveman.5840caveman.5840 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2017

    @Silver.2076 said:
    Sometimes I think they don't understand their own game mechanics and mathematics. Or it's just the wrong people answering.

    i remember when they introduced the old thief trait assassins equilibrium on twitch, lol that was such a joke -

    “they actually told us we could counter a war hammer stun by coming out of stealth to gain stability” ………when if u had half a brain u would just dodge instead of reveal your self and take the damage —- for 1 second of stability---- lol not to mention u are in stealth so the war would have just been swinging blindly wasting skills

    they ended up removing the trait

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2017

    Easiest thing to do and probably needed at this point is to put global damage caps on players, or a global damage reduction. When they start bringing out skills that can hit for 2-3 times your regular health pool, hell seen my friend burning targets for 18k/tick yesterday in pve, that's going overboard. Going forward they can make pve skills harder hitting but it will be under a cap or reduction when done to players. Others games in the past have done this.

    Either that or you start increasing health pools to compensate. What other game increases damage across the board but doesn't increase health to keep that balance?

    There are way too many things wrong with conditions as pointed out many times over, 25 stack cap removed, fire damage too strong since it was given stacks, too many sources of active and passive applications, too many aoes, now too many corruptions, corruption that turns mostly into damage conditions, not needing as much stats as power, resistance only from a couple reliable sources but can be corrupted, gear stats combinations that favor condition builds, cleanses that don't have priority targeting and can be screwed with garbage cover conditions, too many aoe cleanses available which gave them the excuse to increase condition applications.

    They are never going to be able to change their now bloat skills and traits list to put conditions in a good place. If they wanted to build two separate sets of damage sources as equals then they should have built them equally under the stats too. But overall they should have left power as the main source of damage throughout the game, and conditions as control and damage pressure. That balance at least was controllable for them in the past.

    Funny how this all started from condition players crying about doing dungeon speed runs in their garbage specs, dungeons which are now obsolete, but I guess we can count on the raiders and their dps meters, now the game is paying the price years later for the overhauled change to combat to the worse possible direction.

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs - Thieves
    A skill overpowered? just nerf their dodge, balanced. - Anet
    There's no power creep you just don't recognize more people hitting you - Flat Earther

  • coglin.1496coglin.1496 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dusty Moon.4382 said:
    A.Net obviously doesn't even play the same game. Condi's whittle slowly over time? Not in this meta - it is insta down.

    I hate to say it but A.Net is out of step with reality on condi's.

    I believe it is more likely that you are out of step with reality. Conditions do whittle down slowly. At least much slower than any direct damage skill that has the same total damage. You are confusing multiple conditions applied from multiple skills, all doing their damage over time, at the same time, with that of instant damage. Individual skill comparisons for damage out put that are the same or similar in their damage out put prove this by one taking X amount of seconds to do Y damage with conditions, while a direct damage skill does Y damage instantly upon landing the skill.

  • Inoki.6048Inoki.6048 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2017

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Indeed that is a very odd reply by Anet. They should know by now that the issue is around OP gear (trailblazers/dire) and the amount of condis certain rather ovious classes poop out. We have noted this for a long time now.

    Wait on second thought thats not very odd. Anet still havent got a clue about WvW.

    If this was their answer on the topic then it's safe to say they know nothing of their own creation. Sad part is I've seen many good suggestions on these forums that do make a lot of sense and could help game balance a lot. One of those replies pointed out condition variety instead of power as a problem, which was worth looking into. Why do we get ignored this much I cannot understand, but on the other hand, failure of this and the previous expansion is proof not to trust them with future content.

    For me at least - I doubt I'll buy future expansions. I was skeptical after HoT, but with PoF I'm fairly convinced.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @FaboBabo.3581 said:

    @Jana.6831 said:

    @xDudisx.5914 said:
    If condi are supposed to be dmg over time why did they make burn hit so hard? Burn is pretty much spike dmg in the form of a condition.

    They said they made it hit that hard because it was so rare.
    Don't look at me - that's what they said!

    Because even 20 stacks of burn on ma huge condi damage build is 8 k per second.

    Burst is 20k in 0.1 second

    While the power burst damage happens faster, you conveniently ignored the fact that once the power burst is over, after that 0.1 seconds, no more burst damage is being dealt. After that condi burst is over, you are still taking 8k damage every second from attacks that already happened.

    20k burst will drop a good segment of the population. 8K tick you can still cleanse or apply reistance whiel it clicking. It is also possible for certain classes to follow that 20k burst with yer more damage of 5k and more per hit. It not like once burst used there no further means of attacking. While the same applies to conditions the total number of skills acorss all weaponsets for all classes from all weapons still favors Power by a wide margin. There are few weapon skills (none I can think of at the moment) that offer JUST Conditions in the attack> @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

    The damage numbers are too high, just dial the numbers back. What's the problem Anet? This just sucks. Nobody is having fun. Look at how frustrated people are all over these forums, PLEASE fix this utter disaster.

    Dialing the numbers back rather then removing the number of ways to apply conditions is probably the best way o do this as it much easier to "fine tune". Once you start removing the ways a given condition can be applied, you make Cleanses ever more powerful. With tweaking of damage output of a given condition you can start at a percentage for the more obvious ones and easily tweak back up if it goes too far.

    If established BURN does not much damage per tick per stack, tweak that damage back 20 percent. If this too much as it makes Burn useless , put it up 10 percent and so on.

  • Dusty Moon.4382Dusty Moon.4382 Member ✭✭
    edited October 8, 2017

    @coglin.1496 said:

    @Dusty Moon.4382 said:
    A.Net obviously doesn't even play the same game. Condi's whittle slowly over time? Not in this meta - it is insta down.

    I hate to say it but A.Net is out of step with reality on condi's.

    I believe it is more likely that you are out of step with reality. Conditions do whittle down slowly. At least much slower than any direct damage skill that has the same total damage. You are confusing multiple conditions applied from multiple skills, all doing their damage over time, at the same time, with that of instant damage. Individual skill comparisons for damage out put that are the same or similar in their damage out put prove this by one taking X amount of seconds to do Y damage with conditions, while a direct damage skill does Y damage instantly upon landing the skill.

    I am not out of step. I mean when you look at the damage done and you see 20K done by one condi and you have 6 others on you, that is NOT over time that is a spike. it was not so bad when we had resistance, and other boons, it was a little out of whack but it was a way of balancing it. Now with the massive boon stripping that can be done, It is just a race to see which blob can get the AoE condi's down faster.

    Based on A.Net's replay, what we are seeing and what they said are 2 different things, so I stand by my statement.

  • Frostwolve.2916Frostwolve.2916 Member ✭✭
    edited October 9, 2017

    I actually agree with A-NET on their take on condition damage. The damage of the conditions need to stay the same but the duration they do the damage in needs to be doubled. This would eliminate a lot of burst from condition builds but would retain the high end of condi for pve purposes. It would also give power a niche again, and would double your time to react to conditions in WvW, due to conditions not melting your face off so fast.

  • dzeRnumbrd.6129dzeRnumbrd.6129 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 10, 2017

    I think we should just remove condition clearing from the game and then rebalance the condition build damage based on that (i.e., lower the overall damage that conditions can do but make it so you can't remove the damage).

    I can't 'clear' the damage I receive from a power build, so a power build shouldn't be able to clear the damage they receive from my condition build.

    I'm happy to do less damage that can't be cleared.

    There appears to be an underlying assumption from many players that they should be able to clear conditions, which I think is false.

    I think Arenanet's intention here is that conditions should NOT be 100% clearable whereas many players are saying things like "I don't have enough clears to clear it all" as if there is an assumption they should be able to remove conditions.

    Once players are unable to clear conditions they'll start to understand they are taking "damage over time" not "clearable damage over time".

    Removing the ability to clear damaging conditions makes balancing easier because the team knows "Scourge does X damage with this skill over 5 seconds" whereas now they have to make Scourge burstier to offset the clearing.

    We could still retain condition removal for movement impairing conditions but keep bleeds, burns, poison, torment, etc from being removable.

  • just lower the cap on each condi for wvw and spvp.
    since to much ppl hitting on wvw..make it something like 5-10 of each type.
    so someone would have poison up to 7 stacks for example
    burn up to 7 stacks
    confusion up to 7 stacks
    and so on.
    and then on spvp since its only 5 players..make it something like 15-20 cause it takes longer to reach those values.
    the main problem in wvw is that you get 25 stacks 0.1 sec after you jump in if you are frontline.
    so its insta down..
    but if you cap it at 5-10 stacks..you have some extra miliseconds to cry before dieing lol.

  • Offair.2563Offair.2563 Member ✭✭✭

    @Eleazar.9478 said:
    Just wanna through this out there this specific response was towards pve NOT wvw/pvp. There is another thread that talks about condition issues in wvw. lol context is your friend Mr outrage

    Well maybe. But we all know the changes they make to pve are going straight into wvw too.

    As long wvw doesn't get it's own skill set like spvp, things will be like this.

    Don't argue with idiots, they drag you down to their level and own you with experience.
    Big Babou, Ranger for life.

  • @CrimeMaker.8612 said:
    "Power is intended to be more spike damage-centric. Condi more ramping sustained damage. Currently there are some issues with how quickly condition damage can be spiked up, negating the benefits of power damage. If I presented you with a power skill that dealt 1,000 damage instantaneously and a condition one that dealt 1,000 damage over 4 seconds there wouldn’t be a question about what build to choose; you’d go with the instant option every time. Not counting other effects, condition skills must inflict more damage over their duration in order to make power vs. condi into a real choice."

    Arena Net we get that. Thank you for the response.

    -You still have it wrong and have no idea what people have been complaining about.

    Problem 1: Condition Application -> When you have to blow all your cool downs to fight a condition build or literally build yourself around more than 2 cleanses or even 3 cleanses because 2 or 3 cleanses are just not enough. Thats a problem.

    Problem 2: Tanky yet stronk damage -> Arena Net the spike with power you are talking about; to get that spike we players have to run zerk or marauders while you can achieve same spike or better with condi builds while running a lot more tanky and sustain.

    Problem 3: Condition stack limit -> The condition not having stack limit makes sense in PvE but when you come into WvW and see 1 person having 20 stacks of burn, 30 bleeding, 30 torment and other cancer thats you straight up bs.

    Also arena net your 1000 DPS comparison is kind of bs because if a power can spike 1000 per second and condi doing 1000 over the period of 4 second so thats like 250 spike per second but its not 1 condition that does that tho in WvW its more than 1 condition that can tik 250 per second so thats 4k dps over the span of 4 seconds. Makes sense doesnt it? Now how does 2 or 3 condi ticking for 1000 each second while power is just 1 autos or other skills doing 1k dps each second makes sense?

    On top of that, condition builds take more advantage from the debuffing condition thanks to duration and cover (or used to cover): weakness, poison, cripple, chill, immobilize...

  • Chasind.3128Chasind.3128 Member ✭✭✭

    LONG MAY CONDITION RAIN :p

  • Aury.1367Aury.1367 Member ✭✭✭

    Right now condi is out of control. Ecspecially in WvW: Spellbreakers remove all boons including resistance, scourges nuke everything with condi. Thats it. No boons, you melt. Cleanse? Heh, whats that. You will have cleansed once, in the time you would went down 3 times if you dont avoid Spellbreaker bubbles and keep resistance permanently up. At this point its getting absolutly ridiculous.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 10, 2017

    @Spurnshadow.3678 said:
    AMA: "Sorry – it is NOT intended that stacking multiple shades compounds their effects. We’re going to make changes while keeping a close eye on the power of the Scourge across game modes and adjust it over time accordingly. Frankly, the Sand Shades were one of the most controversial (and dangerous!) mechanics we added with the Path of Fire Elite Specs."

    read the bold part as "it will take 2 years".

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • reddie.5861reddie.5861 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @FaboBabo.3581 said:

    @Jana.6831 said:

    @xDudisx.5914 said:
    If condi are supposed to be dmg over time why did they make burn hit so hard? Burn is pretty much spike dmg in the form of a condition.

    They said they made it hit that hard because it was so rare.
    Don't look at me - that's what they said!

    Because even 20 stacks of burn on ma huge condi damage build is 8 k per second.

    Burst is 20k in 0.1 second

    with cd off?

    top of that i dunno about you but my condi necro wont even die from full burst of a thief.
    few min ago thief bursted me i just planted all marks under my own kitten stood there taking burst from thief guess who died?
    not me infact he didnt even scratch my balls. Im not even in dire gear so i dunno kitten ur talking about, i barely login to gw2 atm cus i tried to adopt to this condi kitten but i dont like condi necro i cant play power build that i like (cus i cant cleanse like a fool) got more fun in PvE at the moment which i find boring as kitten aswell.

    i dont see the down side of condi when i play my scourge i just huehue i bleed you and now i run away and let you bleed out i stay at safe distance i can reapply in a flash i dont need to keep up anything atleast a melee need to keep wacking the amount of condi's 1 person can apply if u know the other has no condi cleanse left is insane and no way for you to walk away from these condi's alive if not cleanse.

    u see i prefer condi's to be less dmg so people need keep up condi preasure even if one doesnt cleanse or make the condis last ALOT less time so its equal to a melee that has to keep wacking your kitten in order to make your HP drop.

  • casantis.3106casantis.3106 Member ✭✭
    edited October 10, 2017

    Still waiting for Anet response in one of the topics. (forum ones)

  • Artaz.3819Artaz.3819 Member ✭✭✭

    Can we just cap the amount of unmitigated damage a player is suppose to take (relative to their entire health pool) per second ?

    i.e. if you want someone to live 8s minimum from incoming condition damage alone, condition damage should be capped at 12.5% (100%/8s) of total health pool per tick. In real game, power damage is also incoming to target and that is not capped so Time-To-Kill would still be possible to be much lower than 8s.

    Basically it's a built-in mechanical maximum damage mitigation from conditions when there is no standard toughness or armor implicit defense. Start around there, fine tune as needed.

  • @XenesisII.1540 said:
    Easiest thing to do and probably needed at this point is to put global damage caps on players, or a global damage reduction. When they start bringing out skills that can hit for 2-3 times your regular health pool, hell seen my friend burning targets for 18k/tick yesterday in pve, that's going overboard. Going forward they can make pve skills harder hitting but it will be under a cap or reduction when done to players. Others games in the past have done this.

    Either that or you start increasing health pools to compensate. What other game increases damage across the board but doesn't increase health to keep that balance?

    There are way too many things wrong with conditions as pointed out many times over, 25 stack cap removed, fire damage too strong since it was given stacks, too many sources of active and passive applications, too many aoes, now too many corruptions, corruption that turns mostly into damage conditions, not needing as much stats as power, resistance only from a couple reliable sources but can be corrupted, gear stats combinations that favor condition builds, cleanses that don't have priority targeting and can be screwed with garbage cover conditions, too many aoe cleanses available which gave them the excuse to increase condition applications.

    They are never going to be able to change their now bloat skills and traits list to put conditions in a good place. If they wanted to build two separate sets of damage sources as equals then they should have built them equally under the stats too. But overall they should have left power as the main source of damage throughout the game, and conditions as control and damage pressure. That balance at least was controllable for them in the past.

    Funny how this all started from condition players crying about doing dungeon speed runs in their garbage specs, dungeons which are now obsolete, but I guess we can count on the raiders and their dps meters, now the game is paying the price years later for the overhauled change to combat to the worse possible direction.

    This 1000%

    @dzeRnumbrd.6129 said:
    I can't 'clear' the damage I receive from a power build, so a power build shouldn't be able to clear the damage they receive from my condition build.

    But you can avoid it completely by using dodges, evades, blocks, aegis or reduce damage delt by raising your toughness plus reducing it by 33% VIA Protection....

    I'm happy to do less damage that can't be cleared.

    Right, because what we need is more passive game mechanics that reward lazy 1 - 2 hit tactics where your opponent is pretty much defenseless...

    There appears to be an underlying assumption from many players that they should be able to clear conditions, which I think is false.

    Let's agree to disagree, Conditions are already stronger than Burst power builds. Given the survivability, synergy with traits and runes/sigils, easy stacking and reapplication ( pretty much renders clears useless ), stats required to burst is less (1 -2, condition damage & expertise ) vs power which needs 3 stats ( Power, precision, and ferocity ) and lol at condition burst ( isn't the damage suppose to apply over time? )

    I think Arenanet's intention here is that conditions should NOT be 100% clearable whereas many players are saying things like "I don't have enough clears to clear it all" as if there is an assumption they should be able to remove conditions.

    Once players are unable to clear conditions they'll start to understand they are taking "damage over time" not "clearable damage over time".

    Removing the ability to clear damaging conditions makes balancing easier because the team knows "Scourge does X damage with this skill over 5 seconds" whereas now they have to make Scourge burstier to offset the clearing.

    We could still retain condition removal for movement impairing conditions but keep bleeds, burns, poison, torment, etc from being removable.

    This isn't an attack just trying to wrap my head around your idea.

  • momophily.3814momophily.3814 Member ✭✭
    edited October 10, 2017

    How do i enphasize the OP more... i should honestly hang a billboard of the origional post out side Anets office space.

    Maybe then they'll take the time to understand why the the majority of their WvW players hate the condi meta. And making it a condi-pirate ship meta is even worse

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    People here: condition damage bursts too much

    Condition users: we'd take a nerf to our damage as long as we can actually do our damage without being cleansed so we do no damage.

    People here: but that makes condition damage braindead!

    Like, pick one. Either we have massive condition cleanse and condition burst or less cleanse and less burst.

    You can't build a viable damage over time system if people can cleanse away 100% of the damage. More cleanse means people need to be able to kill people in between cleanses, which just adds to the burst damage.

    Damage over time that hits for 2-4K per tick (with constant application) is manageable. The issue is a few overtuned specs which have people demanding more cleanse while not realizing it's an arms race.

    Some cleanse is fine. Too much cleanse helps hide the relative imbalance of overtuned specs and is unduly restricting on more balanced specs. (Again, 2-4K per second is fine if you get hit and keep getting hit).

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • @saerni.2584 said:
    People here: condition damage bursts too much

    Condition users: we'd take a nerf to our damage as long as we can actually do our damage without being cleansed so we do no damage.

    People here: but that makes condition damage braindead!

    Like, pick one. Either we have massive condition cleanse and condition burst or less cleanse and less burst.

    You can't build a viable damage over time system if people can cleanse away 100% of the damage. More cleanse means people need to be able to kill people in between cleanses, which just adds to the burst damage.

    Damage over time that hits for 2-4K per tick (with constant application) is manageable. The issue is a few overtuned specs which have people demanding more cleanse while not realizing it's an arms race.

    Some cleanse is fine. Too much cleanse helps hide the relative imbalance of overtuned specs and is unduly restricting on more balanced specs. (Again, 2-4K per second is fine if you get hit and keep getting hit).

    the problem is, for massive cleanse, you need to build for cleanse, which leaves non cleansing builds in the gutter.

  • @Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    People here: condition damage bursts too much

    Condition users: we'd take a nerf to our damage as long as we can actually do our damage without being cleansed so we do no damage.

    People here: but that makes condition damage braindead!

    Like, pick one. Either we have massive condition cleanse and condition burst or less cleanse and less burst.

    You can't build a viable damage over time system if people can cleanse away 100% of the damage. More cleanse means people need to be able to kill people in between cleanses, which just adds to the burst damage.

    Damage over time that hits for 2-4K per tick (with constant application) is manageable. The issue is a few overtuned specs which have people demanding more cleanse while not realizing it's an arms race.

    Some cleanse is fine. Too much cleanse helps hide the relative imbalance of overtuned specs and is unduly restricting on more balanced specs. (Again, 2-4K per second is fine if you get hit and keep getting hit).

    the problem is, for massive cleanse, you need to build for cleanse, which leaves non cleansing builds in the gutter.

    ^This, Im ok with condition damage as long as it's within the realm of reason which at the moment it is not. The key here is balance, and again conditions SHOULD NOT BURST, combining burst capability with sustained DPS is too much.

  • Anet's solution - Just add more condi application.

    Anet has never known how to balance their own wvw/pvp game. Balance team must give reach arounds.

  • roamzero.9486roamzero.9486 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2017

    @Syprus Soulslayer.1640 said:
    ^This, Im ok with condition damage as long as it's within the realm of reason which at the moment it is not. The key here is balance, and again conditions SHOULD NOT BURST, combining burst capability with sustained DPS is too much.

    Anets AMA was directed toward PVE. In PVP it's a different ball game, for a condition build to be effective it needs to burst conditions after condition cleanses have been baited out. The days of "sustained condi DPS" in PVP are long gone. Only Necros and Mesmers are over the top anyway because for them their "burst" has almost 100% uptime.

  • Inoki.6048Inoki.6048 Member ✭✭✭

    @Amins.3710 said:
    Anet's solution - Just add more condi application.

    Anet has never known how to balance their own wvw/pvp game. Balance team must give reach arounds.

    Sad part is no matter what we discuss here, EVERYTHING will be ignored.

  • Titan.3472Titan.3472 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2017

    Conditions are much better than power in the vast majority of pvp/wvw/raid scenario. I can't give an accurate % but I believe condition is way more effective at least 70% of the situations/encounters based on the set up I used to play. If the max stack per conditions would be limited to 5 stacks per condition per target (like power is limited to 5 targets) then it would make things a bit more balanced AND it would prevent huge server LAGS too. (it would also be a huge necessary nerf to condi btw which would become a secondary attribute not a main source of damage as it is actually)

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2017

    @boolah.1325 said:

    @FaboBabo.3581 said:
    Again ; in a 50 v 50 war u cant expect less then 30 torment , 30 burn 30 confu etc.

    Its a war dude...

    Whenever ur outnumbered stacks will rise.

    What about dodging , Blocks etc to prevent condis ?

    One shot someone in 0,1 sec from Stealth is totally balanced , but applying condis to kill someone in the next 3 seconds is so unfair ?

    Totally agree.. kitten do you want??..

    People want blob fights but complain too many ppl are using condi builds now instead of power. Deal with it, it's not 2012 where power was the thing.

    Learn to use your condi clears, create a build that has more condi clear, get in a squad and make the ideal sub groups, join TS, and stay on tag.

    i think there are 2 kind of WvW players, those who are bad at mm0s and find PVD very skillfull (sadly ive found players who think 10 player pvd'ing a gate of a empty server is very skillfull and that actually looks like it boost their ego's) and then there are the players that are used to siege mmo's with lots of tactics and organized players, well even so the only solution for those more organized groups is to leech due how broken the game can be against each others cause at the end theres only one way to play the game that is the most broken stack of most imba aoe casters, rather than deppends on group playstyle... once again due how poor cared the interation of the combat is, who leech beter from the unbalance will have better chances of winning, might noit actually be a situations of roles vs roles or better strategy/organization,

    Sadly the game is in favour of the first group, GW2 was designed for the more the brainless gamer u can find, even a bird or a dog can be trained to play this game.... all u need is to fallow the easy ways on how to win, wich they are on access of everyone due how the game was built for (players who hate mmo's will love gw2.. ANet words), they completelly messed up the easy way of figthing with easy rewards, so they want everything to become easy, forced players into damage creep redundancies, in hope players would be carried and ignore how bad the combat has become...

    The problem is that mmo for every one, never worked out, it returns ugly fights everywhere full of visual clutter, being in pve or pvp, and Anet find that amusing (at least looks like it) the way who classe shave become brainless and easy to play, poor counters, being most based on power creep momments some really w/o direct counters, being the only situation play cheaper than the cheaper player.

    Until Anet fixes that mentality of bringging easy acces of lameness to everyone , game wont get better.....

    @boolah.1325, it is not hard to overwhelm a class with lots of condi clears on 1vs1 ATM is not a l2p issue Anet has broken their simple combat system to something very ugly where they tough players would just shutup and leech.... u actually have lots of condi classes bursting with condis or easy ovehelming due the spam design, my guardian itselff can hold against most HoT condi spammers but there are some builds on PoF outhere than can overwhelm me easilly with coni on 4 seconds, and i got traited shouts with trooper runes, virtues, meditations to cleanse on heal and smite.. well lots of condi cleanses... they are useless agains those builds.
    L2P in this game means BUY the thew gimmick so u can leech as well.. its a vertical class design at the end...instead of upgrading armors we upgrade our traits for more spam...

  • @roamzero.9486 said:

    @Syprus Soulslayer.1640 said:
    ^This, Im ok with condition damage as long as it's within the realm of reason which at the moment it is not. The key here is balance, and again conditions SHOULD NOT BURST, combining burst capability with sustained DPS is too much.

    Anets AMA was directed toward PVE. In PVP it's a different ball game, for a condition build to be effective it needs to burst conditions after condition cleanses have been baited out. The days of "sustained condi DPS" in PVP are long gone. Only Necros and Mesmers are over the top anyway because for them their "burst" has almost 100% uptime.

    I was referencing WvW, if PvE changes means changes in WvW then I'm all for it. You're right about Necromancer (scourge primarilary) they can dish out conditions at an astronomical rate. Perhaps it's more about weapon skills and traits / runes. Some mesmers can be annoying but being a mesmer myself it's easy to counter condi cheese mesmers plus we have access to tons of clears and stun breaks thanks to mirage. The problematic conditions are confusion, poison, and burns. Back in vanilla they use to stack duration not stack intensely. Now it feels like most classes can just poop out these conditions and their damage compared to bleeds per stack can be overwhelming. Perhaps their stacks should be limited if the damage tables are going to stay the same.

  • We have a time limit announced or something? We need the changes soon.

  • ThomasC.1056ThomasC.1056 Member ✭✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:
    People here: condition damage bursts too much

    Condition users: we'd take a nerf to our damage as long as we can actually do our damage without being cleansed so we do no damage.

    People here: but that makes condition damage braindead!

    Like, pick one. Either we have massive condition cleanse and condition burst or less cleanse and less burst.

    You can't build a viable damage over time system if people can cleanse away 100% of the damage. More cleanse means people need to be able to kill people in between cleanses, which just adds to the burst damage.

    Damage over time that hits for 2-4K per tick (with constant application) is manageable. The issue is a few overtuned specs which have people demanding more cleanse while not realizing it's an arms race.

    Some cleanse is fine. Too much cleanse helps hide the relative imbalance of overtuned specs and is unduly restricting on more balanced specs. (Again, 2-4K per second is fine if you get hit and keep getting hit).

    You make sense, and this is the way things should work if conditions were a real DOT system. It has to be reliable, and if it's not, it gets twisted so that it becomes a power burst doppleganger. Moreover, if DOT was really over time, it would make sense to have dire and TB sets, since the condi user has to survive the duration their condis to work.

    So, why not : it makes sense to consider doing less dmg per tick, but in a reliable fashion, which means less/no cleanses and resistance removal. Probably won't happen though...

    Look at that—you broke Scruffy's sarcasm meters. ~ Taimi.

  • wvw is doomed with condi cheese :( Rip wvw

  • Lol lol lol lol> @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @boolah.1325 said:

    @FaboBabo.3581 said:
    Again ; in a 50 v 50 war u cant expect less then 30 torment , 30 burn 30 confu etc.

    Its a war dude...

    Whenever ur outnumbered stacks will rise.

    What about dodging , Blocks etc to prevent condis ?

    One shot someone in 0,1 sec from Stealth is totally balanced , but applying condis to kill someone in the next 3 seconds is so unfair ?

    Totally agree.. kitten do you want??..

    People want blob fights but complain too many ppl are using condi builds now instead of power. Deal with it, it's not 2012 where power was the thing.

    Learn to use your condi clears, create a build that has more condi clear, get in a squad and make the ideal sub groups, join TS, and stay on tag.

    i think there are 2 kind of WvW players, those who are bad at mm0s and find PVD very skillfull (sadly ive found players who think 10 player pvd'ing a gate of a empty server is very skillfull and that actually looks like it boost their ego's) and then there are the players that are used to siege mmo's with lots of tactics and organized players, well even so the only solution for those more organized groups is to leech due how broken the game can be against each others cause at the end theres only one way to play the game that is the most broken stack of most imba aoe casters, rather than deppends on group playstyle... once again due how poor cared the interation of the combat is, who leech beter from the unbalance will have better chances of winning, might noit actually be a situations of roles vs roles or better strategy/organization,

    Sadly the game is in favour of the first group, GW2 was designed for the more the brainless gamer u can find, even a bird or a dog can be trained to play this game.... all u need is to fallow the easy ways on how to win, wich they are on access of everyone due how the game was built for (players who hate mmo's will love gw2.. ANet words), they completelly messed up the easy way of figthing with easy rewards, so they want everything to become easy, forced players into damage creep redundancies, in hope players would be carried and ignore how bad the combat has become...

    The problem is that mmo for every one, never worked out, it returns ugly fights everywhere full of visual clutter, being in pve or pvp, and Anet find that amusing (at least looks like it) the way who classe shave become brainless and easy to play, poor counters, being most based on power creep momments some really w/o direct counters, being the only situation play cheaper than the cheaper player.

    Until Anet fixes that mentality of bringging easy acces of lameness to everyone , game wont get better.....

    @boolah.1325, it is not hard to overwhelm a class with lots of condi clears on 1vs1 ATM is not a l2p issue Anet has broken their simple combat system to something very ugly where they tough players would just shutup and leech.... u actually have lots of condi classes bursting with condis or easy ovehelming due the spam design, my guardian itselff can hold against most HoT condi spammers but there are some builds on PoF outhere than can overwhelm me easilly with coni on 4 seconds, and i got traited shouts with trooper runes, virtues, meditations to cleanse on heal and smite.. well lots of condi cleanses... they are useless agains those builds.
    L2P in this game means BUY the thew gimmick so u can leech as well.. its a vertical class design at the end...instead of upgrading armors we upgrade our traits for more spam...

    I highly agree with what you have said here.

    It took me some time to figure it at myself. But as you have said, players who hate MMOs would love GW2. But that come vise versa as well. I really realized it after all of my friends stopped playing this game. It offers very little in terms of engaging combat. Less so when it comes to player versus player combat. Looking back on GW2 now, it has some of the worst and uninteresting combat system in the genre. GW2 also heavily rewards failure highly, rather than success.

    To the point success in most cases is just irrelevant compared to other MMORPGS on the market. This is the reason why some classes just don't have a place in "high end content, or PvP, WvW." Because other classes are being stacked so much, to the point. One can just faceroll their keyboard and be instantly successful against a master player. On a class that is just too demanding, thus is just outclassed. Due to nothing more, but balance and the vision of the devs.

    It's pretty clear from a PvP perspective this game is currently one of the worst. But that's ok. Because people will still flock to it in droves. Because it offer some people something that no other MMORPG will give them. Success for being sub par at a MMO. A even playing field for those players. Who normally get face stomped in every other MMORPG. Because either the refusal to L2P, or the refusal to work for progression, or both. GW2 does cater to both those players greatly more than other players. Thus they will flock to this game enmass. Until another publisher decides to make a better MMO that cater to these people. And it's safe to say, no other publisher will be willing to do that. Seeing the train wreck in progress GW2 and Paragon is now.

    (Epic Games tried to take a page from the ANet's book on how to do things. That Paragon is getting crapped on. By all of the same issues and problems GW2 currently faces. To include huge population decline crisis. Only thing is that game has no PvE to fall back on yet. I say Yet because Epic Games is working on making better Bots for that game. Because like GW2 Paragon's PvP is trash tier'ed at best.)

  • Odokuro.5049Odokuro.5049 Member ✭✭✭

    Power builds need to build glassy if they hope do deal big spike damage, while Condition based builds do not.
    A Condition based build can use gear such as Dire/Trailblazers and deal just as much if not significantly more than a Power based build running Berserkers/Marauders, while still retaining Sustain/Survivability from being able to stack things like Toughness/Vitality.
    The application of Conditions is another thing, you can Cleanse/Clear a few Conditions (Usually the cover Conditions, such as Poison.) and have those hard hitting Conditions still on you (Burning/Confusion/Torment.).
    I feel our Vitality should give us a passive defense vs. Condition damage/duration, such as Toughness does vs. Power damage recieved.
    Also internal cooldowns for applying the same Conditions over and over again, or limit the sources of Condition stacks to avoid several people being able to Condi-bomb one target.

    It's at the point now, that you either run full on Ebolaids if you wish to compete, or just uninstall the game, because ANet seems to have it out for Power builds, and wants everyone to bow down and surrender to running a Condition build for everything.

    The Self-Appointed Pervy Sage of Dragonbrand.

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Drop Burn damage by 20-25%% across the board and Torment/confusion by 15-20%...crisis averted. No playing with warm ups/cool downs/pulses...etc. Simple

    Lets have some bacon

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
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  • coro.3176coro.3176 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Easy fix to condi stats problems: Force condi builds to rely on precision. Eg. Blah skill or trait applies bleed/burn/torment on crit rather than automatically. Obviously, there would need to be some balancing done so that it's not a massive buff or nerf, but the end result should be condi builds being as squishy as their power counterparts.

    Want to drop 5k/s condis on your enemy? Fine, but you'll have to be as squishy as a power build in berserker's stats.

  • Both WvW & PvP modes seem to inherit their skills & traits balance primarily from PvE mode. The PvE team seem to be mostly focused on DPS balancing (mainly for raid use I presume), but they hardly ever seem to balance armors/health/defensive stuff.

    Then the PvP team seem to rebalance the stuff they inherited from PvE for the small scale player vs player scenarios & also balances most of the defensive mechanics. However, since PvP fights usually only last for seconds & very few players actually in the same fight, alot of stuff isn't changed . In PvP they don't design/balance stuff for long fights, they want it quite short (a dev post a year or two ago).

    Then the WvW team seems to inherit their stuff from both the other teams and tries to weave these together into a "not totally game breaking" & a little bit better balanced for a larger playerbase scenario. Fights can literally go on for hours, but there's quite alot of inherited limitations (timers/cooldowns/range/etc) on skills/traits/weapons that seems "not balanced on the same scale" with these larger & longer WvW siege warfares. I think most of us veteran long term wvw'ers agree that "insta-wipes" are boring (the term "bag hunters" is by newbies & for newbies. We vets like loooong fights, we dont care about bags).

  • @kmfart.7480 said:
    Then the WvW team seems to inherit their stuff from both the other teams and tries to weave these together into a "not totally game breaking" & a little bit better balanced for a larger playerbase scenario. Fights can literally go on for hours, but there's quite alot of inherited limitations (timers/cooldowns/range/etc) on skills/traits/weapons that seems "not balanced on the same scale" with these larger & longer WvW siege warfares. I think most of us veteran long term wvw'ers agree that "insta-wipes" are boring (the term "bag hunters" is by newbies & for newbies. We vets like loooong fights, we dont care about bags).

    agreed, but: as a wvw veteran myself you missed one thing. There is no wvw team :s

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