[Raids] Why raids in GW2 stayed niched — Guild Wars 2 Forums

[Raids] Why raids in GW2 stayed niched

Hi,

raids in GW2 are little pieces of art and game mechanic heaven, that sadly never really took off and now are well on their way to decline into nothingness. Thats extremely sad, because, well, as I said, raids in GW2 are so well designed. But there are several fundamental flaws with how they got implemented, and with GW2 in general tbh.

1. No clear roles - no clear balancing

GW2 started 2012 with the promise of tearing down the classical "roles" of tank, healer and dps. Instead you were supposed to counter incoming dmg by dodging and using your healskill for emergencies. Not to mention downstate instead of fulldeath. This worked to some extend in the core game, where certain boons werent as common as they later on were in HoT and even more so in PoF - aegis, stability, quickness, alacrity, resistance. But also because everything at this point was "optimized" around 5 dps builds. Raids have up to 10 available slots, and you suddenly need a tank and have room for a healer, but you also want those juicy boons for everybody, because they increase the dmg output more than adding another dps player.
The mirrorsquad was born about 3-6 months after wing1 release for a reason. Per se nothing bad, but it limited the available class-slots a lot. In the beginning of raids, you'd run a very fixed comp and if your favorite class wasnt part of that comp, you had a hard time finding a raidsquad for a successful kill.
Other mmos that have a traditional role setup try to either provide builds for each class to fill each role, or they designate a class to a role. So when you start playing a certain class, its either already a tank/support/dps at character creation, or (except for absolute high end instanced content) you can decide during the developement of your character which role to fill.
In GW2 those roles didnt exist until raids. And then they were filled with the best in slot variations available. Not a good thing at all.
On top of that, the balancing was - and still is - all over the place in terms of supporter builds. Anet is slowly working towards fixing this, but lets be honest here... its too little, way too late. Its still incredibly difficult to interchange support builds, because not all builds have access to the same boons. For beginners and LFG squads this directly translates into choosing 1 support comp that excludes all else. Ofc you can clear raids without a druid, my static does this regularly. But a druid is the easiest to fit into a chrono support comp. The LFG alone is pure nightmare if you want to run something other than 1x druid, 2x chrono. You want to run quickbrand instead of 1 chrono? Herald instead of druid? It always means more limitations on otherwise fully available dps - or healer - slots.

2. No difficulty scaling

In the beginning we were all little noobs, discovering raids together. So in the beginning, we didnt need difficulty scaling. Everybody was pretty much in the same boat and difficulties were solved by running a certain comp and using voice chat. However, about a year after wing1 release, this already was completely different. There were experienced players that raided several times per week, the weekly clearers and the newbies. Weekly clearers just wanted their kills, experienced raiders wanted challenge and newbies just wanted to get into raiding to start their journey towards being weekly clearers. For newbies there are the training guilds - though its getting less and less of those as well. But the weekly clearers and experienced raiders constantly clashed with each other. This caused a LOT of toxicity. It only now has died down because of the immense power creep that removed pretty much all challenge from raids and most of the hardcore raider community with it. Now you could say: well, thats solved then. But.... it isnt. Because those very invested players are needed to keep raids hyped, to test new strategies, new builds. They make it possible for new players, or casual players to just hop into raids and not have to theorycraft everything for themselves, not have to discover each little boss mechanic for themselves. In a way, the hardcore raiders are like teachers, showing you how its done. Ofc you can also learn to swim on your own - well, not everybody, but most - but its way easier (and faster!) to get it shown to you, isnt it?
So, at the latest on wing5 release, we needed difficulty settings. Instead, anet tried to make raids easier but still engaging. Wing7 is a direct result of this, like canteen food that has no flavor so to offend nobody, it doesnt fit anyone. Too difficult for new players, too easy for experienced players.
There have been several suggestions for easy modes, personally Id highly favor having a buff that gives boons+buffs periodically to each player. But we also need a hardmode to keep players engaged. No downstate debuff as hardmode would be an idea.
But, no matter how anet implements it, raids without difficulty scaling can never survive longterm.

3. Fully frontloaded weekly reward system

Thats a really sore point for me. Because the reward system in raids basically translates into everybody clears raids once per week. That works out well if you:
a) have enough raids and
b) have a big enough raiding community
GW2 lacks both.

4. No longterm draw

Many raiders started getting into raids only for the legendary armor. It was supposed to be that constant draw to get in new players. However, while the design choices themselves are a matter of taste, the fact that you cant properly dye it just kills that longterm goal for most players. That leaves the legendary ring, but its not really a longterm goal to begin with.
So, why even start raiding? You have to invest a lot of time getting into raids and the raid rewards arent really worth a lot (pretty much everything has higher rewards per hour compared to pugging raids if you dont need ascended stuff). The only draw left is that its the only instanced pve endcontent except fractals. But thats not enough, especially because of the issues with the weekly reward system, the lack of difficulty scaling.

So, theres several other problems, I know, but imo those 4 are whats kept raids from taking off.

And still, it was a very nice time overall for me - raiding in GW2. With all its ups and downs, memes and trolls. And I can only urge everybody to give it a try. If you've never been part of a static raidgroup, you havent experienced the real mmorpg feeling.

<13

Comments

  • Raizel.8175Raizel.8175 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well written, though there are another reasons why raids are niche-content and these are - at least in my opinion - far more important to the subject than the reasons you've already stated: Firstly, the main game components (which is all the OW-stuff) are rather antisocial to begin with. There's no trace of conflict whatsoever. Even the combat-system in GW2 is rather antisocial. You don't really have to communicate whatsoever - even in hardcore content. Then there's the fact that raids are purely optional and don't yield anything you'd need for a proper gameplay-experience.

  • Xar.6279Xar.6279 Member ✭✭
    edited August 5, 2019
    1. Small support from ArenaNet (not enough new wings, bosses). Progression is most important part of raiding. While GW2 lacks of real progression. Raids are based on farming same things over and over here.

    2. Most of the gw2 community is very casual.

    3. Whole PvE in GW2 is not engaging for many people (and pointless) which liked this game mode in other games. They do not feel the need to do it.

    4. Alot of people which likes raids already checked GW2 PvE and they didn't like it. And information which tells that there's no real PvE in GW2 has gone into the world. So raiders avoid this game.

    5. Underdeveloped raiding rewards system.

    6. Instability of ArenaNet. No schedules. Real plans. I mean. It looks like they do things at the last minute, which are not part of a larger whole.

    These points means that GW2 probably won't be raiding mmo ever. It's probably possible to change it, but it would require A LOT of ArenaNet work. I mean working 24/7 as some other companies do, etc, etc.

  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2019

    @Raizel.8175 said:
    Well written, though there are another reasons why raids are niche-content and these are - at least in my opinion - far more important to the subject than the reasons you've already stated: Firstly, the main game components (which is all the OW-stuff) are rather antisocial to begin with. There's no trace of conflict whatsoever. Even the combat-system in GW2 is rather antisocial. You don't really have to communicate whatsoever - even in hardcore content. Then there's the fact that raids are purely optional and don't yield anything you'd need for a proper gameplay-experience.

    Very good point. Ive played MMOs from the start, so for me teamwork and communication just is something I did without thinking. But its absolutely true. In GW2 you dont need to do that - ever. Not very MMO-like at all.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭

    Comes down to the A-net not knowing what direction they want to take the game sadly. The first was more focused around PvP well this one isn't and it burned a ton of the original player base. Sure we had PvE and a storyline but all of it geared us up to go do the sweet, sweet guild/alliance battles which were funn as all get out. Enter Guild wars 2 and we are primarily and over world pve simulator, we lack any need to socialize and guilds are joke. Raiding can't be fixed until the previous issues are and I doubt there is a good way to do it really.

    The player-base in the majority clearly enjoy this design, they don't want to have to interact with people and are also extremely casual. In-fact I've never seen casual elitist until this game and frankly its laughable; We also have class balance issues that make BFA blush and with ESO, Final fantasy online and WoW out there we can't compete with their PvE or their Raids. This game was also designed with the express Idea of not having raids, and not having mounts so im sure there are technical reasons why it takes so long to make raids.

  • Rico.6873Rico.6873 Member ✭✭✭

    5 man raids and it would be easy to find a raid to group with

  • Raizel.8175Raizel.8175 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @thrag.9740 said:
    your way overthinking it. Its simple:

    -gw2 is a casual game
    -raids are not casual

    I'd argue about GW2 being a casual game. It truly isn't. What's casual are the skill-requirements for OW-content. But concerning time investment, GW2 is pretty hardcore. You could even argue that GW2 is grindier than some Asia-Grinders. The problem is rather the lack of difficulty progression and necessary learning curves in vital parts of the game, namely OW-content.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2019

    @Raizel.8175 said:

    @thrag.9740 said:
    your way overthinking it. Its simple:

    -gw2 is a casual game
    -raids are not casual

    I'd argue about GW2 being a casual game. It truly isn't. What's casual are the skill-requirements for OW-content. But concerning time investment, GW2 is pretty hardcore. You could even argue that GW2 is grindier than some Asia-Grinders. The problem is rather the lack of difficulty progression and necessary learning curves in vital parts of the game, namely OW-content.

    What time investment are you talking about here? The couple hours you need to farm the gold for a full set of exotic gear to do almost ALL endgame content?

    I mean, that kind of statement doesn't make sense in this game because you DON'T need to make these massive time investments to play it endgame. The time investment in this game is not hardcore at all, unless you CHOOSE to take that path when you don't actually need to.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2019

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    They should have been:

    • 5 man
    • max 10-15 minutes each
    • two modes (easy and hard)

    So basically fractals except that they have 4 modes.
    Each raid can be pugged in 30min. I've done it a lot. Only w5 needs some luck with the pug but most of the other wings are fairly common pugged in that time.

  • Raizel.8175Raizel.8175 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Raizel.8175 said:

    @thrag.9740 said:
    your way overthinking it. Its simple:

    -gw2 is a casual game
    -raids are not casual

    I'd argue about GW2 being a casual game. It truly isn't. What's casual are the skill-requirements for OW-content. But concerning time investment, GW2 is pretty hardcore. You could even argue that GW2 is grindier than some Asia-Grinders. The problem is rather the lack of difficulty progression and necessary learning curves in vital parts of the game, namely OW-content.

    What time investment are you talking about here? The couple hours you need to farm the gold for a full set of exotic gear to do almost ALL endgame content?

    I mean, that kind of statement doesn't make sense in this game because you DON'T need to make these massive time investments to play it endgame. The time investment in this game is not hardcore at all, unless you CHOOSE to take that path when you don't actually need to.

    I think you underestimate GW2 here. Just look at the masteries you have to complete, look at all the achievements, completing your characters by farming HPs, look at all the collections, all the meta events and world bosses you can do daily, maybe legendary weapons or the legendary LW-trinkets. There's a lot of time investment in OW alone. It only adds if you add stuff like fractals, maybe WvW, PvP or whatsoever. What is your average daily play time? Just one or two hours per day? Or 3+ hours where you could argue that you aren't really casual anymore?

    In most cases, people claiming that GW2 is a casual game are just using that argument as an excuse. GW2 is casual-friendly, that's not the same as being casual in nature though. If it were casual in nature, the game would already be dead since people won't stay if there aren't long term goals. In that regard, "GW2 is a casual game" is always the most unfitting - since untrue - reason as to why raids in GW2 aren't successful.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2019

    @Raizel.8175 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Raizel.8175 said:

    @thrag.9740 said:
    your way overthinking it. Its simple:

    -gw2 is a casual game
    -raids are not casual

    I'd argue about GW2 being a casual game. It truly isn't. What's casual are the skill-requirements for OW-content. But concerning time investment, GW2 is pretty hardcore. You could even argue that GW2 is grindier than some Asia-Grinders. The problem is rather the lack of difficulty progression and necessary learning curves in vital parts of the game, namely OW-content.

    What time investment are you talking about here? The couple hours you need to farm the gold for a full set of exotic gear to do almost ALL endgame content?

    I mean, that kind of statement doesn't make sense in this game because you DON'T need to make these massive time investments to play it endgame. The time investment in this game is not hardcore at all, unless you CHOOSE to take that path when you don't actually need to.

    I think you underestimate GW2 here. Just look at the masteries you have to complete, look at all the achievements, completing your characters by farming HPs, look at all the collections, all the meta events and world bosses you can do daily, maybe legendary weapons or the legendary LW-trinkets. There's a lot of time investment in OW alone. It only adds if you add stuff like fractals, maybe WvW, PvP or whatsoever. What is your average daily play time? Just one or two hours per day? Or 3+ hours where you could argue that you aren't really casual anymore?

    In most cases, people claiming that GW2 is a casual game are just using that argument as an excuse. GW2 is casual-friendly, that's not the same as being casual in nature though. If it were casual in nature, the game would already be dead since people won't stay if there aren't long term goals. In that regard, "GW2 is a casual game" is always the most unfitting - since untrue - reason as to why raids in GW2 aren't successful.

    That doesn't make sense ... the time investment isn't about how long it takes to do all the content in the game. Just because there is lots to do doesn't mean GW2 isn't a casual gaming experience. I mean, you're basically saying that even though the game is attracting casual players, it's not a casual game experience because it gives players choice to focus on long term goals? Those things aren't contradictory ... I know lots of casual players that work to the long term goals.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    They should have been:

    • 5 man
    • max 10-15 minutes each
    • two modes (easy and hard)

    So basically fractals except that they have 4 modes.
    Each raid can be pugged in 30min. I've done it a lot. Only w5 needs some luck with the pug but most of the other wings are fairly common pugged in that time.

    I'm not saying you can't pug a raid in 30 minutes. There is lots more about raids that keep people from doing them than the fact that they can be pugged in 30 minutes.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2019

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    The problem is that game doesnt require players to have any skill. There are no challanging parts of the game. Hot came out to fix that but was scaled down by backlash. Only semi-challanging part of the game are raids. Many players that dont play raids are simply not used to trying to overcome any obstackle. They are not used to interacting with players, caring about builds, waiting for teamates, trying to improve or in fact failing.

    When I started raiding I wasnt perfect bu I enjoyed the chalkange. Something the game was lacking. I become better and now when I do anything else I always oneshot everything. I dont understand now how I could ever consider it hard.

    Good example is queens gambit. I see many posts about how hard it is. I completed the title last year. At that time I was just starting with raids but I oneshoted all bosses exept liadri. I didnt manage to see any nechanics since the boss died in few seconds and I wasnt ever hit. Liadri took few tries because I actualy had to do some mechanics but it was very good feeling when I beated her.

    Usualy players dont start because of raids or combat system. And then the dificulty jump is too much for them to try to learn.

    I really think that is the core of the issue that kind of feeds into two symptoms that make it hard for people to get into content like Raids.

    There are threads in this forum complaining about the difficulty of story missions, even going as far as calling some of the story "bosses" impossible to beat, or claiming they take 30+ minutes of incredible frustration.
    That's content you can beat in 2-5 minutes pretty much just auto attacking while strafing, or in seconds playing properly, so something definitely went very very wrong there.

    The amount of the player base of GW2 that never actually really engaged with the gameplay and combat systems is staggering.

    On the other hand there is lack of communities.
    With how incredibly easy the vast majority of the content is, players never have any need in the game to group up to overcome some challenge, to learn from each other and to form bonds to call upon for future challenges.

    Everybody is playing alone together, each in their own bubble, often with blatant misunderstandings about the game and it's mechanics, unwilling to interact, learn, improve and to adapt.

    So the ease of content has formed these incredibly stubborn, ignorant but at the same time arrogant players, who not only don't really want to challenge themselves, because GW2 offers plenty of paths with not only less but no resistance, but are also lacking any and all connections to other players to call upon to tackle this more interesting content together, which would be making it way more fun.

    It's just such a shame, because even though Raids and Fractal CM's aren't actually that difficult at all, they are some of the, if not the best content I have ever played in any MMO or online game in general in two decades.

    But everything in GW2 is about the path of least resistance and if it's easier to dhuumsay or hate on Raids than to actually get a nice group together give them a proper shot, then that's the way to go.
    Even though there surely are people who just don't have the capacity or time to clear that kind of content, I'm convinced the vast majority of people would do just fine and have a blast with it, if they just gave it a proper shot and would be willing to learn something new and to improve, which imo is what's rewarding about video games and a huge contributor to what makes them fun.
    It's just that the core of the game has trained them not to ever put in any effort and they will still be just fine.

    I don't see anything short of a combination of a major balance pass on the core game and story, implementation of proper tutorial systems and a focus shift in both development and advertising to repeatable and challenging content able to fix this situation. And that's not happening.

    So I will enjoy what good and engaging content there is for as long as I can. But the major missed opportunity with GW2 is gnawing on me since quite some time.

    Watching people with completely nonsensical combinations of gear, trait and weapon choices struggle to beat mobs over minutes that can literally be killed in less than 10 seconds without taking a hit, crying for them to be nerfed and Anet complying is quite the tragedy, and it feels like it's slowly crushing this game.

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    As a self-labeled casual, I want content I can log in, find a team and complete within 20-30 minutes ... that's not raids so ... I don't bother anymore. I'm probably not the only one that feels most raiding is out of their reach. Raids stay niche because they appeal and are most accessible by niche players.

    With a healthy community that would have been Raids though. If Anet had pushed this content more, we would be in a world where you can LFG a Raid Wing at any time and quickly clear it in 20-30 minutes, which isn't difficult at all to do.
    They are really not that hard or niche. It's just that the very small community makes it hard to get going, and downtime due to looking and waiting for people contributes to about 60-80% of the time spend pugging.

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    They should have been:

    • 5 man
    • max 10-15 minutes each
    • two modes (easy and hard)

    I do think Fractals fill that role already though.
    There definitely was and is a place for Raids in the game, they just needed a bigger push and better support and lead in from the core game.

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Really, the only flaw with raids is that they don't accommodate the majority of the people that play this game. Anet attracted a specific market with the things the game offered .. then they decided to do raids and do the opposite to the selling points that brought most of the people to the game. This guy gets it:

    @thrag.9740 said:
    your way overthinking it. Its simple:

    -gw2 is a casual game
    -raids are not casual

    As a self-labeled casual, I want content I can log in, find a team and complete within 20-30 minutes ... that's not raids so ... I don't bother anymore. I'm probably not the only one that feels most raiding is out of their reach. Raids stay niche because they appeal and are most accessible by niche players.

    They should have been:

    • 5 man
    • max 10-15 minutes each
    • two modes (easy and hard)

    I've pugged many explorable path dungeons that with new people took over 30 mins.
    And they only had one difficulty scale.
    I've seen Deepstone take a half hour on t1, it's a pretty long fractal.

    If the Secret Lair of the Snowmen had taken 45 minutes, it would have been no less casual by virtue of it's difficulty alone.
    Look how long people will spend Lab farming at Halloween....in groups of 20+.

    I get what you are driving at but this whole "They should be x to be labelled as accessible" is an personal and arbitrary judgement that ultimately makes a meme of your point and devalues it.

    Casual players often point to Scruffy 2.0 or Hearts and Minds as inaccessible.
    Victory or Death is every bit as time consuming as either but you rarely see a complaint.
    The difference is that one of those fights is won by pressing F.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2019

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Really, the only flaw with raids is that they don't accommodate the majority of the people that play this game. Anet attracted a specific market with the things the game offered .. then they decided to do raids and do the opposite to the selling points that brought most of the people to the game. This guy gets it:

    @thrag.9740 said:
    your way overthinking it. Its simple:

    -gw2 is a casual game
    -raids are not casual

    As a self-labeled casual, I want content I can log in, find a team and complete within 20-30 minutes ... that's not raids so ... I don't bother anymore. I'm probably not the only one that feels most raiding is out of their reach. Raids stay niche because they appeal and are most accessible by niche players.

    They should have been:

    • 5 man
    • max 10-15 minutes each
    • two modes (easy and hard)

    I've pugged many explorable path dungeons that with new people took over 30 mins.
    And they only had one difficulty scale.
    I've seen Deepstone take a half hour on t1, it's a pretty long fractal.

    If the Secret Lair of the Snowmen had taken 45 minutes, it would have been no less casual by virtue of it's difficulty alone.
    Look how long people will spend Lab farming at Halloween....in groups of 20+.

    I get what you are driving at but this whole "They should be x to be labelled as accessible" is an personal and arbitrary judgement that ultimately makes a meme of your point and devalues it.

    Casual players often point to Scruffy 2.0 or Hearts and Minds as inaccessible.
    Victory or Death is every bit as time consuming as either but you rarely see a complaint.
    The difference is that one of those fights is won by pressing F.

    You're right, making some arbitrary baseline is personal, but I don't think it makes my point meme worthy ... the fact is that devs MUST do this all the time to decide what difficulty ANY content is, appropriate for the audience.

    Bottomline is this: raids aren't casual accessible, HOWEVER you want to define what casual is. Maybe I can't tell you what casual is exactly, but I know what it isn't ...

    @Asum.4960 said:
    With a healthy community that would have been Raids though. If Anet had pushed this content more, we would be in a world where you can LFG a Raid Wing at any time and quickly clear it in 20-30 minutes, which isn't difficult at all to do.

    Um, no ... let's not assume we have a 'if we make it, they will come' situation here just to be on the right side of the fence. Anet could push this content all they wanted, but if it's not casual-friendly, casual players aren't going to do it.

    I think the main problem with raids isn't difficulty, though I think that is ONE of the problems. I think it's primarily the fact that learning all the dance moves to win the Raid Wing dance contests isn't interesting to a casual player. They just aren't forgiving to a mis-step.

    We can justify how 'easy' raids are all we want, but having been on both sides of the fence, I can tell you that lots of players find this content a significant challenge and thus, inaccessible to them.

    @Asum.4960 said:
    I do think Fractals fill that role already though.
    There definitely was and is a place for Raids in the game, they just needed a bigger push and better support and lead in from the core game.

    They do, but they miss one thing ... casuals like to get legendary gear too. Not disagreeing that there isn't a place for Raids ... it's just a very small place for a suspected small number of players. I doubt you will EVER see a bigger push for raids as they are because it's a message to the players that GW2 is no longer trying to differentiate
    itself in the market and continue to serve the market it attracted in the first place. A push for more raids and raid-like content is a sign to these players Anet forgot who's paying the bills.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    You're right, making some arbitrary baseline is personal, but I don't think it makes my point meme worthy ... the fact is that devs MUST do this all the time to decide what difficulty ANY content is, appropriate for the audience.

    The point is not meme-worthy. The way you try and make it certainly is though.

    Bottomline is this: raids aren't casual accessible, HOWEVER you want to define what casual is. Maybe I can't tell you what casual is exactly, but I know what it isn't ...

    Or maybe you can just accept some of the content and rewards of this game will not be suited to your personal play-style... no matter how badly you want the shinies. That there will be things that are not for you.
    You could even prove yourself enlightened and be cool about it. You could accept that your casual playstyle keeps you from certain rewards, and be happy that those who are less casual have something to maintain long-term engagement in this game. You could also take solace in the fact that this game doesnt lock all it's BiS stats gear behind raids like many many others do.
    Or you can just keep losing your mind every time the topic of raids comes up and reminds you that you do not have legendary armor.
    Choice is yours really.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2019

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    You're right, making some arbitrary baseline is personal, but I don't think it makes my point meme worthy ... the fact is that devs MUST do this all the time to decide what difficulty ANY content is, appropriate for the audience.

    The point is not meme-worthy. The way you try and make it certainly is though.

    Bottomline is this: raids aren't casual accessible, HOWEVER you want to define what casual is. Maybe I can't tell you what casual is exactly, but I know what it isn't ...

    Or maybe you can just accept some of the content and rewards of this game will not be suited to your personal play-style... no matter how badly you want the shinies. That there will be things that are not for you.
    You could even prove yourself enlightened and be cool about it. You could accept that your casual playstyle keeps you from certain rewards, and be happy that those who are less casual have something to maintain long-term engagement in this game. You could also take solace in the fact that this game doesnt lock all it's BiS stats gear behind raids like many many others do.
    Or you can just keep losing your mind every time the topic of raids comes up and reminds you that you do not have legendary armor.
    Choice is yours really.

    I think you're being assuming here; I'm not here to complain about not having legendary armor. I've accepted a long time ago I'm not getting the raid shinies ... I'm simply saying why in relation to the discussion that has happening here. I'm certainly not losing my mind over it and I've never made any indication I'm going to. Maybe you're looking for an argument; you won't find it here. Trust me, I'm not losing sleep that raids aren't a huge deal in this game ...

    If you want to understand why raids aren't bigger in this game, look at the content that this game was founded on and compare with raids. Someone mentioned that if Anet pushed the raid content more, it would be more popular; that formula is pretty simple ... people want loot, but they don't want to change their game lifestyle to get it ... If Anet wants to push the content, ANY content, that content needs to be appealing to more of the people that bought into this game, its fundamental philosophies and the kinds of content it was founded on.

    I get people don't want raids dumbed down for the masses ... but if raids are to be bigger with more focus and effort from the devs, there definitely needs to be a more 'masses-friendly' option. Otherwise, enjoy your 1 raid every 9 months schedule and your cosmetic raid loot.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2019

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    With a healthy community that would have been Raids though. If Anet had pushed this content more, we would be in a world where you can LFG a Raid Wing at any time and quickly clear it in 20-30 minutes, which isn't difficult at all to do.

    Um, no ... let's not assume we have a 'if we make it, they will come' situation here just to be on the right side of the fence. Anet could push this content all they wanted, but if it's not casual-friendly, casual players aren't going to do it.

    I think the main problem with raids isn't difficulty, though I think that is ONE of the problems. I think it's primarily the fact that learning all the dance moves to win the Raid Wing dance contests isn't interesting to a casual player. They just aren't forgiving to a mis-step.

    We can justify how 'easy' raids are all we want, but having been on both sides of the fence, I can tell you that lots of players find this content a significant challenge and thus, inaccessible to them.

    I'm not saying all casual players will flock to content like Raids if it's just supported better and advertised more, of course not.
    But I do believe it would be a significantly larger part of the "community", especially if there was such a thing as proper communities and challenging content out in the open world and such that facilitated the forming of them.

    For so many people all that keeps them from Raiding is having 9 other people they are comfortable with messing up in front of and to learn and improve with together.
    That in tandem with core content that made people more considerate of their builds and performance, as well as gently guiding them towards out of game resources to educate themselves with would go such a long way.

    Some casuals are just players who haven't yet found anything to be hardcore about or anyone to be hardcore with (phrasing).
    I certainly thought Raids weren't for me at all when they came in with HoT, and it took me around 2 years to even try them, as I was an adamant solo player.
    The reason, the little push, that got me into Raids, not being able to earn Spirit Shards while running around doing my solo stuff casually because of having to complete the Raid masteries for that, got removed shortly after, presumably due to being too inaccessible, or something.

    Now Raids and the community I formed due to them, by taking the steps (or leap, rather) to get invested into that content and finding/building a group that's right for me, is one of the biggest parts of the game for me and has been the primary source of enjoyment with the game for the last 2 years.
    If it wasn't for that little incentive "forcing" me into Raids, I might have never experienced that content, definitely never met any of those people and maybe I would be sitting here now arguing how Raids is just not for me or how they don't have a place in the game, or maybe I would have even long stopped playing.

    The thing is, the smaller a community sub section like Raiders or Fractal CM runners gets in combination with being starved for new content, the more hardcore that community gets over time, having nothing left but mastering what little content they have, farming up KP with endlessly rising requirements, instead of having a balancing constant stream of newcomers creating their own groups and trainings to provide an easy in for more new people.

    That in combination with long waiting times due to lack of people, taking away the hotjoin feel (as well as, again, lack of own communities to play together with), is making it incredibly difficult for more casual players to consume Raids in a more casual way, which otherwise would absolutely be possible.

    Sometimes all the game needs is to provide a ramp for people to get up to and then to give them a little push.

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    I do think Fractals fill that role already though.
    There definitely was and is a place for Raids in the game, they just needed a bigger push and better support and lead in from the core game.

    They do, but they miss one thing ... casuals like to get legendary gear too. Not disagreeing that there isn't a place for Raids ... it's just a very small place for a suspected small number of players. I doubt you will EVER see a bigger push for raids as they are because it's a message to the players that GW2 is no longer trying to differentiate
    itself in the market and continue to serve the market it attracted in the first place. A push for more raids and raid-like content is a sign to these players Anet forgot who's paying the bills.

    GW2 differentiates itself from the competition in plenty of ways, the combat system and progression systems as well as a lack of a sub-fee being the prime examples.
    Raids don't change a thing about that, and aren't about grinding gear progression like it most other games, but skill based.

    As to who is paying the bills, I'm guessing that's the extreme minority of players dubbed "Whales" who spend exorbitant amounts of money on the game, like pretty much any other MTX driven business model.
    If anything I would think the average hardcore Raider logging in every day to play for hours spends more on the game than the average casual who checks in once or twice a week or even just every 3 months, but I reckon both are insubstantial compared to the big spenders who drop thousands a month.
    Generally the vast majority, especially on the extreme casual end, either never spends anything at all, or extremely little.

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This doesn't need a wall of text to analyze.

    They're designed to be niche is the answer. They've met the targetted goal and thank god they haven't waivered from that design wise.

  • sigur.9453sigur.9453 Member ✭✭✭

    to add another minor factor.
    while it was good for people outside the community to call it RAIDS (oh, , they have raids now, i will try it out) it was a mistake considering the current playerbase.
    for some reason: RAIDS = BAD!
    If they would have called it "Group Adventure", "Megadungeon", etc, ..... a lot more people would have at least checked it out and maybe stick to it instead of saying things like "raids do not belong in OUR game", "i quit X because of raids", " i only start playing because gw2 does not have raids" and not even giving it a try.
    there are still people here claiming that friends of them quit because raids were added. imagine beeing triggered like that.

    generally i can mostly agree with op.
    especially the - "If you've never been part of a static raidgroup, you havent experienced the real mmorpg feeling." part.
    rest of the game (while beeing a very good game) always felt quite bland to me for an MMO regarding human interactions.

  • Xar.6279Xar.6279 Member ✭✭

    @Raizel.8175 said:

    @thrag.9740 said:
    your way overthinking it. Its simple:

    -gw2 is a casual game
    -raids are not casual

    I'd argue about GW2 being a casual game. It truly isn't. What's casual are the skill-requirements for OW-content. But concerning time investment, GW2 is pretty hardcore. You could even argue that GW2 is grindier than some Asia-Grinders. The problem is rather the lack of difficulty progression and necessary learning curves in vital parts of the game, namely OW-content.

    Its kind of funny. In my theory GW2 is very hard to learn and kind of hardcore game which is for some reason developed and targeted only for casuals :D

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2019

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    The challenge comes from the environment and the enemies, not the interface and acquiring special knowledge. At launch, GW2 was like this, too. The highest damaging rotations were pretty simple and required only a few skills.

    That's not completely true. The reason why simple rotation were mostly used was because in the era without dps meters it was much harder to do proper estimation of more complicated rotations. Additionally, the "meta" was extremely niche, and something you could have easily ignored in the whole PvE content, both OW and instanced. In fact, because you could not easily see your damage output, 99% of the population was completely unaware of how big the dps difference between average players and 100% efficient ones was, and noticing dps differences between two similar rotations was often beyond the capability of even most hardcore players.

    Still, constant weapon switching for most classes, attunement dance for eles (and kit swapping madness for engis) were completely a thing then, if you wanted to be truly serious about efficiency.

    Also, the "power creep" people keep bringing about is mostly a myth. While it did indeed happen both times after the expac hit, people keep forgetting that each of those cases were preceded by massive wave of nerfs. For example, i keep hearing about how PoF introduced power creep. This is indeed true - but at the same time it is also true that the highest dps builds are builds from the height of HoT era, and nothing in PoF times could even come close to some of those.

    The barrier to entry for high level content in this game is nigh insurmountable for the new player. We at the top don't notice this, because we're so used to the climb that we fail to see exactly how high it is.

    Indeed. GW2 is the MMO with the biggest gap between efficiency of average and top skill i have ever seen. As such, things that are laughably easy for top 10% can be punishingly difficult for someone hovering around the 50% mark. That is one of the main problems of GW2. It's almost impossible to properly balance difficulty setting in such a game - not without introducing multiple difficulty tiers anyway.

    @Xar.6279 said:
    Its kind of funny. In my theory GW2 is very hard to learn and kind of hardcore game which is for some reason developed and targeted only for casuals :D

    Oh, it's very easy to learn - it is just extremely hard to master. And i consider it a very big design flaw. It might have worked in GW1, where the more casual players could still easily get by with hero system (and build templates) support, but in gw2 the consequences are far more reaching, and damaging.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Xar.6279Xar.6279 Member ✭✭

    @sigur.9453 said:
    to add another minor factor.
    while it was good for people outside the community to call it RAIDS (oh, , they have raids now, i will try it out) it was a mistake considering the current playerbase.
    for some reason: RAIDS = BAD!
    If they would have called it "Group Adventure", "Megadungeon", etc, ..... a lot more people would have at least checked it out and maybe stick to it instead of saying things like "raids do not belong in OUR game", "i quit X because of raids", " i only start playing because gw2 does not have raids" and not even giving it a try.
    there are still people here claiming that friends of them quit because raids were added. imagine beeing triggered like that.

    generally i can mostly agree with op.
    especially the - "If you've never been part of a static raidgroup, you havent experienced the real mmorpg feeling." part.
    rest of the game (while beeing a very good game) always felt quite bland to me for an MMO regarding human interactions.

    Yep. I wrote about it in another thread.
    Word "Raid" has its specific meaning in mmorpg genre.

    Progression is most important part of raiding. While GW2 lacks of real progression. "Raids" here are based on farming same things over and over.
    So people which want to raid here are dissatisfied. Because they are misled.

    Meantime more casual players (who are the majority of this game) don't like this word at all.

  • ZeftheWicked.3076ZeftheWicked.3076 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2019

    0 - the meta.

    This is GW2, game that thrives on "Play your way" and real build diversity, especially at lvl 80 with xpacs. And it's huge fun for me. Yet often in raids it's "bring a specific build on a specific role or gtfo", not to mention "dps gestapo" apps. I wonder how often i would get kicked outta T4 fracs if my blood magic reaper was shown to have sub-optimal dps, never mind saving the group from wipes serveral times due to strong sustain and mass ressing.

    Until i can do raids playing how i really like instead of how I'm ordered to, that game mode can enjoy this message:

    "Dear Raids...
    (picture of my backside)"

                                                          yours, Krytan Butcher.
    
  • sigur.9453sigur.9453 Member ✭✭✭

    @ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

    0 - the meta.

    This is GW2, game that thrives on "Play your way" and real build diversity, especially at lvl 80 with xpacs. And it's huge fun for me. Yet often in raids it's "bring a specific build on a specific role or gtfo", not to mention "dps gestapo" apps. I wonder how often i would get kicked outta T4 fracs if my blood magic reaper was shown to have sub-optimal dps, never mind saving the group from wipes serveral times due to strong sustain and mass ressing.

    Until i can do raids playing how i really like instead of how I'm ordered to, that game mode can enjoy this message:

    "Dear Raids...
    (picture of my backside)"

                                                          yours, Krytan Butcher.
    

    I have amazing news for you!
    You already can play how you want!
    Make your own group and you are ready to go.
    Have fun.

  • I lost all interest in raids for two reasons:

    I do not want to memorize a complex 20 step rotation

    I do not want to memorize a whole bunch of stupid boss mechanics. Add to that that most of the time I can't even see the magic circles on the ground with all those effects and fat charr and bam: Charlie Foxtrott.

    Both is not 'learning'. Both are just taking up valuabe brain storage I can use more productively elsewhere.

    So I stay with the stuff I like. OW and WVW. Where my damage is actually good enough and (in case of wvw) there is actually some variance and challenge. Raids are not challening per se. They just demand that you prefill your muscle memory. My time is too valuable for that.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    The simple rotations get nerfed, quickness and alacrity became staple boons that ultimately require faster fingers to use, as well as more traits becoming less "passive" as time goes on.

    All I see is the most complex rotations getting nerfed to the group with every balance patch, as if Arenanet doesn't like them. To be fair, the way the game is, not showing cooldowns of your off-bar skills for example, makes complex rotations much harder than they should be. But besides that they've been reducing even the most complex rotations to simple spam.

  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    I lost all interest in raids for two reasons:

    I do not want to memorize a complex 20 step rotation

    I do not want to memorize a whole bunch of stupid boss mechanics. Add to that that most of the time I can't even see the magic circles on the ground with all those effects and fat charr and bam: Charlie Foxtrott.

    Both is not 'learning'. Both are just taking up valuabe brain storage I can use more productively elsewhere.

    So I stay with the stuff I like. OW and WVW. Where my damage is actually good enough and (in case of wvw) there is actually some variance and challenge. Raids are not challening per se. They just demand that you prefill your muscle memory. My time is too valuable for that.

    People memorize random number or word chains. Its called memory exercise. Its good for you, trains your brain, keeps you sharp. So Im really surprised at this argument.

  • @Yasi.9065 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    I lost all interest in raids for two reasons:

    I do not want to memorize a complex 20 step rotation

    I do not want to memorize a whole bunch of stupid boss mechanics. Add to that that most of the time I can't even see the magic circles on the ground with all those effects and fat charr and bam: Charlie Foxtrott.

    Both is not 'learning'. Both are just taking up valuabe brain storage I can use more productively elsewhere.

    So I stay with the stuff I like. OW and WVW. Where my damage is actually good enough and (in case of wvw) there is actually some variance and challenge. Raids are not challening per se. They just demand that you prefill your muscle memory. My time is too valuable for that.

    People memorize random number or word chains. Its called memory exercise. Its good for you, trains your brain, keeps you sharp. So Im really surprised at this argument.

    I excercise my brain everyday at work dealing with numbers, names and planning. I am fine. I do not want to do the same when I am home RELAXING.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2019

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    I lost all interest in raids for two reasons:

    I do not want to memorize a complex 20 step rotation

    There is classes with very easy rotations, so no, this is not an argument.

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    I do not want to memorize a whole bunch of stupid boss mechanics. Add to that that most of the time I can't even see the magic circles on the ground with all those effects and fat charr and bam: Charlie Foxtrott.

    Both is not 'learning'. Both are just taking up valuabe brain storage I can use more productively elsewhere.

    Merriam-Webster disagrees: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/learns

    You personally might not consider the knowledge valuable which is acquired, but that is not the same as not learning.

    If you do not want to practice boss mechanics, that is perfectly fine. Not all content is for everyone.

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    So I stay with the stuff I like. OW and WVW. Where my damage is actually good enough and (in case of wvw) there is actually some variance and challenge. Raids are not challening per se. They just demand that you prefill your muscle memory. My time is too valuable for that.

    There is different types of challenge. Raids are not challenging for people who have mastered them. To you they are obviously not completable, thus infinitely challenging.

    If you think muscle memory or rotation or practice is not needed in WvW, you are not playing serious WvW. You are basically playing the open world pve variant of WvW, which is fine. But in both cases you are not tackling challenging content.

    I'm quite sure some of the high performance GvG or Skrim guilds (or even WvW commanders) would take offence with your comment that your performance is equal to theirs without serious practice or dedication.

  • Starshine.8739Starshine.8739 Member
    edited August 6, 2019

    People who claim that "oh my god 20 steps complex rotation" should first of all take a look at the rotation, huge part of them are literally weapon skills coming off cooldown, it's not that hard(cast dmg amplifiers, throw your burst, fill in the gap with filler skills until cooldowns are up), ele rota may be hard yeah but for the rest it usually takes around 1-2 hours of practicing on golem to do atleast 75-80% dps and believe me knowing your class dps rotation will not only benefit you folks in raids, it will benefit you even during a boss fight in story instance, silly things like queens gauntlet or everyone else at any meta in open world.

    And no, the game is not hard to be good at, it is hard to be at the top level but that's hard in ANY game.

    Oh, and to the one dude who's time is too valuable to prefill his muscle memory with some in game kitten, can you enlighten us how come it's yet that low value that you are spending it on games instead of saving the world or smth?

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2019

    It seems GW2 is just in this very weird place where it's designed form the ground up to be a heavily skill based semi-hardcore game which then almost exclusively received extremely easy casual content which doesn't interact with those systems at all.

    When you play PvP, WvW, Fractals and Raids, you can clearly see that the game was designed for that type of content and does indeed adhere to the play your own way philosophy even to this day.
    That doesn't mean you can make a bad build and play it badly and still clear the most difficult content without issue, nor should it. But GW2 being skill based and oozing that hardcore design with weapon swapping, evades, dodges, self heals and buffs as well as Trait and Stat choices etc., allows you to choose to bring a wide variety of viable compositions, even to not bring any healer or full support at all, and if you are skilled enough and want to put in that much effort you can beat the content, often faster than otherwise.

    If you are good at this game and understand it's systems, the things you can do with it are quite fantastic.
    It's just that the opportunities to do great things in are very limited.

    On the casual side though, it seems a majority of players would have been fine with something as simple as a 3 skill system for each profession, Attack, Support and Heal.
    Some attack chain, varying in speed and cadence per profession doing the same DPS at all times for everybody, some strong self- or slightly weaker group buff, and strong self- or slightly weaker group heal.
    Then maybe 3 "Trait" slots to slot in some passives out of an easily balanced selection of 10.
    No dodging, no crowd control (although maybe a 4th skill, Disable, wouldn't be too much).

    That would work perfectly fine for GW2's Open World and Story Content and provide about the same gameplay, but that's just not what GW2 is or was designed for.
    But over the course of 7 years, GW2 received only about 6-8h of repeatable endgame content if played at a high level, consisting of 20 Fractals and 7 Raids so far.
    Most of it reward locked on a weekly basis with Raids, with the rest only worth playing on a daily rotation of a select few.

    Meanwhile the content that doesn't interact with the game's systems very much or at all receives more content than that on a quarterly basis.

    So who is the game actually for?
    It's like if chess was being played almost exclusively on a kindergarden playground. Sure it might be great fun moving the pieces around randomly and making it up as they go, nothing wrong with that at all, but if that's all there is one can't help but feel like it's a waste of the game and it's intricate well designed rules and mechanics.
    Clearly there is so much more you can do with it, but if Anet refuses to teach people how to play the game, to provide an incentive to become better and to provide an environment for people to practice and express that gained greater skill, then imo that's a shame.

    TL;DR:
    I think at the end of the day we can endlessly argue what GW2 is or who it is for, because I'm pretty sure ArenaNet doesn't know themselves.
    The game clearly caters to and was designed for at least semi-hardcore players, but mostly provides content for casual play despite of that, without doing much to bridge the gap or incentivize a transition into the few pieces of more engaging content that are there.

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭

    @SoulSin.5682 said:

    @Yasi.9065 said:

    1. No clear roles - no clear balancing

    Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeh
    No.

    Same reason I tell people that balance isn't killing PvP either.
    You need to play a game mode lot to notice Meta issues. To play a lot means that you have already started playing.

    The gamemode is a niche not because people are playing and quitting, but because we have more people quitting than new players joining.
    Balance is not at fault.

    @Yasi.9065 said:

    2. No difficulty scaling

    I find this half-right, half-wrong.

    Half right that yes, Raids need an entry point that is not called fractals.
    Half Wrong because GW2 Raids are actually easier compared to other MMos. If you were to scale difficulty, it needs to actually be harder.

    These can be solved in a myriad of ways, for starters, ANET could actually standardize the PvE instanced content in this game so bosses actually have clear tells and mechanics. Just so players can ACTUALLY train for raid mechanics outside of say... raiding.
    People would have an easier time understanding Greens if they actually see this mechanic, in a less lethal form, somewhere else.
    ANET need to do a full overhaul of dungeons, fractals, entrance raids, and hard ones so that there is an "actual learning flow". This way people notice things are getting progressively harder instead of the "abyss gap" between Open World content and Vale.

    It isn't a wonder that people give up raiding right at the start.

    @Yasi.9065 said:

    3. Fully frontloaded weekly reward system

    4. No longterm draw

    Lack of proper rewards outside some exclusive skins and farming for legendary doesn't help either. That said, Raiders are not lacking on money.
    I guess that Raids need another progression system exclusive for them. Or anything that incentive to continue running then longterm

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    So, theres several other problems, I know, but imo those 4 are whats kept raids from taking off.

    Having to join a guild/discord just to start raiding is the worse of all.
    "Oh look, you just need to change your whole build, your class choice, learn a role, learn a overcomplex rotation that changes ever patch notes, spent hours reading and watching guides, joining a practice guild, joining a discord, register, learn how to find a party, find said party, set a date, wipe for hours (the fun part, btw) to get the first raid victory, repeat all those steps 250Li times and then you are now a "Raider" that can actually join PUG parties.
    For what? Repeat this process another hundred times for a legendary armor?

    ^^ Now you understand why raiding is a niche?

    Perfect explanation. I think the raids here are around end normal to mid heroic WoW difficulty. I compare it current WoW since i have some experience with it and it being the Best raid game (debatable since FFXIV does better these days) and in there is easier to get into raiding. Before they designed bosses with classes in mind and which can help out in some mechanic, now it somewhat reduced but it still has the case for some classes be better at some bosses. It is easier to get into raids even in the first day of the raid and people usually reach the boss before the last one with pugs.
    In guild wars 2 you have to min max or you will not get good dps, the % increases are way to vital and even doing the rotation correctly doesn't net you good dps you have get exact runes and the exact sigils, that are not that useful outside raids and fractals.
    The proper food and utility, which are just there to cap stuff.
    Stat selection is okish but is stuck in berserker or viper with some assassins and sinister(cap that stat but don't overcap blegh).
    Then you have to change into some min maxed build that you play only for the raid that relies on alacrity and quickness to work, those 2 boons are 10k+ increase in damage and they kitten with your timing since your class most probably doesn't have access to them) , so the best way to play outside the instance is not the same as inside.
    Many skills hit hard but are dps loss in raids but are good in open world, here you get the meme that people 1 1 1 they don't they are just not min maxed.
    The problem is that they did raids as any other mmo, they didn't put some twist like they do with mounts for example. They could have added raid specific special skills for tank, support and dps for each boss so you have something to work towards and not mess up the balance for sPVP and WvW. The mounts show that they know what the open world needs as special skills, the repeatable content needs something like it.

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    The simple rotations get nerfed, quickness and alacrity became staple boons that ultimately require faster fingers to use, as well as more traits becoming less "passive" as time goes on.

    All I see is the most complex rotations getting nerfed to the group with every balance patch, as if Arenanet doesn't like them. To be fair, the way the game is, not showing cooldowns of your off-bar skills for example, makes complex rotations much harder than they should be. But besides that they've been reducing even the most complex rotations to simple spam.

    Expand your scope a bit. I'm talking about through the years, not an individual balance patch. It was a stated goal of Anet to reduce passive traits awhile ago, and they've maintained it ever since. The most recent example comes from changes to the Scrapper, where the innate power boosts, damage boosts, and function gyro were all traded away for bonuses that don't work unless you have very specific, hard-to-maintain boons up and a manual gyro skill. Likewise, the Self-destructing build for Holosmiths, AKA the easy one to play, had its damage and functionality completely gutted in explicit favor of another trait. Of course, because the balance team didn't consider the PVE impact, they made engineer the worst class in the game, and had to introduce a panic balance patch that just raised up two traits in PVE only.

    This type of architecture change isn't uncommon. I still remember when the highest DPS for mirage involved camping 3 clones and never shattering. I still remember when Deadeye's got malice passively, and just used Death's Judgement over and over again. I remember when Renegades just swapped toggles on each legend.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2019

    @Yasi.9065 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    I lost all interest in raids for two reasons:

    I do not want to memorize a complex 20 step rotation

    I do not want to memorize a whole bunch of stupid boss mechanics. Add to that that most of the time I can't even see the magic circles on the ground with all those effects and fat charr and bam: Charlie Foxtrott.

    Both is not 'learning'. Both are just taking up valuabe brain storage I can use more productively elsewhere.

    So I stay with the stuff I like. OW and WVW. Where my damage is actually good enough and (in case of wvw) there is actually some variance and challenge. Raids are not challening per se. They just demand that you prefill your muscle memory. My time is too valuable for that.

    People memorize random number or word chains. Its called memory exercise. Its good for you, trains your brain, keeps you sharp. So Im really surprised at this argument.

    I'm not ... I believe this sentiment is held by a significant number of players in the game; the players that were attracted to the game for its original content approach. I don't appreciate the study and research that goes into learning how to do content, ESPECIALLY if the result of not doing it is a harsh rebuke by the game and the people you team with. I too do not feel the need to 'exercise' my brain in this way with this particular form of entertainment. In fact, I play these games as a way to remove my self from 'brain exercise', not subject myself to it. Hence ... casual.

    At the beginning, GW2 felt like the perfect game for that. Even in dungeons, the threshold for knowing what to do was acceptable (and the penalty for not doing it palatable) ... somewhere, GW2 lost its way and tried to appeal to the fringe.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2019

    @Asum.4960 said:
    Sometimes all the game needs is to provide a ramp for people to get up to and then to give them a little push.

    This I can agree with ... NOTHING in this game prepares a player for endgame content. It's a big failure in that sense. It's worse the harder the endgame content gets.

    Hence .... players' requests for an easy mode raid platform. Even players recognize this massive gap to get into raids. Honestly, I think if Anet felt raids needed to be a bigger thing in GW2 ... this would be THE way to do it.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • @Astralporing.1957 said:
    That's not completely true. The reason why simple rotation were mostly used was because in the era without dps meters it was much harder to do proper estimation of more complicated rotations. Additionally, the "meta" was extremely niche, and something you could have easily ignored in the whole PvE content, both OW and instanced. In fact, because you could not easily see your damage output, 99% of the population was completely unaware of how big the dps difference between average players and 100% efficient ones was, and noticing dps differences between two similar rotations was often beyond the capability of even most hardcore players.

    Still, constant weapon switching for most classes, attunement dance for eles (and kit swapping madness for engis) were completely a thing then, if you wanted to be truly serious about efficiency.

    Also, the "power creep" people keep bringing about is mostly a myth. While it did indeed happen both times after the expac hit, people keep forgetting that each of those cases were preceded by massive wave of nerfs. For example, i keep hearing about how PoF introduced power creep. This is indeed true - but at the same time it is also true that the highest dps builds are builds from the height of HoT era, and nothing in PoF times could even come close to some of those.

    For the engineer, yes. But for other classes... it really was easier. All of the specializations keep adding more and more stuff to maintain, which creeps the power until everything gets nerfed and it becomes the new standard. The core classes had less skills available to them, so they used less skills to do their damage. I still remember many of them:

    Mesmer: You made sword phantasms and then used auto attacks, blurred frenzy, and at the start of the fight, mantra of pain.
    Elementalist: you camped fire in staff using lava font, unless you're using FGS in which case you corner rushed enemies to death.
    Necromancer: You shroud-flashed for buffs and auto attacked with dagger. Lich form off cooldown.
    Warrior: You camped Greatsword and used 100 blades whenever possible.
    Guardian: This one actually required switching. You'd use Scepter 2, then switch to greatsword and use the symbol and spin.
    Thief: Backstab into heartseeker
    Ranger: No clue what this one was
    Engineer: Beethoven's the 5th.

    This was when quickness was a rare unique buff, so outside of Time Warp mo;st classes didn't even get it. On some of these, maybe you could eke out a few extra DPS by swapping weapons around, but for most of them that wasn't really an option.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:
    If you think muscle memory or rotation or practice is not needed in WvW, you are not playing serious WvW. You are basically playing the open world pve variant of WvW, which is fine. But in both cases you are not tackling challenging content.

    I'm quite sure some of the high performance GvG or Skrim guilds (or even WvW commanders) would take offence with your comment that your performance is equal to theirs without serious practice or dedication.

    muscle memory doesn't help you as much because you have to react to an ever changing situation. Which is fine for me. I keep my cooldowns in mind and try to anticipate the enemies moves. My damage is fine.

    Raids are both 'challenging' as you have to memorize the perfect rotations and boss mechanics and at the same time incredible boring and one dimensional - you just play down your list of memorized skills and mechanic reactions and that's basically it. Boring.

    It is hard to imagine how something can be hard AND boring at the same time. ANET managed to pull it off. Doing a raid does not feel good. It does not feel rewarding. Afterwards it is a feeling of 'oh that's it. Hmpf'. Sad.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2019

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    Sometimes all the game needs is to provide a ramp for people to get up to and then to give them a little push.

    This I can agree with ... NOTHING in this game prepares a player for endgame content. It's a big failure in that sense. It's worse the harder the endgame content gets.

    Hence .... players' requests for an easy mode raid platform. Even players recognize this massive gap to get into raids. Honestly, I think if Anet felt raids needed to be a bigger thing in GW2 ... this would be THE way to do it.

    I wouldn't say there is nothing at all, as for me personally climbing Fractals way back until doing CM's (or rather just what is now 99CM back then) did make me feel pretty prepared for Raids in terms of personal skill level.
    The big hurdle for me was finding 9 other people I was comfortable with and to breach that initial anxiety over thinking that Raids were this super difficult content for super hardcore players which just wasn't for me.
    But after reading some guides and watching some videos, even as someone who learns best by doing, it was fine tbh.
    It didn't look that different to what I was already doing and I realised this barrier between the rest of the game and Raids was mostly just something I had put up myself in my head.

    It's just that a lot of people don't want to put in the effort, so even though it was fine for me I can recognize that the game needs to do a bit more to provide a smoother transition into that more hardcore environment.

    Personally I think one or two training mini Raid Wings, just to facilitate the forming of 10 man groups in a low pressure environment and going through clear presentations of mechanics you find across Raids would be a better approach than an across the board easy mode, but whatever works.

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    Raids are both 'challenging' as you have to memorize the perfect rotations and boss mechanics and at the same time incredible boring and one dimensional - you just play down your list of memorized skills and mechanic reactions and that's basically it. Boring.

    It is hard to imagine how something can be hard AND boring at the same time. ANET managed to pull it off. Doing a raid does not feel good. It does not feel rewarding. Afterwards it is a feeling of 'oh that's it. Hmpf'. Sad.

    You have to be really good at the game to get to a level where everything goes as predicted to a point where it's actually just boring, in which case it's also not hard anymore.
    Even after 2+ years of Raiding I still get thrills at times, be it due something going wrong and pulling an unexpected comeback or doing some of the CM's which really keep you on your toes, it's still a good time.

    Really the only way I can see a Raid being boring is if you either are just exceptional as a player, as well as everybody else in the Squad, executing eveything perfectly for months on end, or if you are getting carried by others who are really good while having no mechanical responsibilities yourself at all.

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2019

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    If you think muscle memory or rotation or practice is not needed in WvW, you are not playing serious WvW. You are basically playing the open world pve variant of WvW, which is fine. But in both cases you are not tackling challenging content.

    I'm quite sure some of the high performance GvG or Skrim guilds (or even WvW commanders) would take offence with your comment that your performance is equal to theirs without serious practice or dedication.

    muscle memory doesn't help you as much because you have to react to an ever changing situation. Which is fine for me. I keep my cooldowns in mind and try to anticipate the enemies moves. My damage is fine.

    Muscle memory is of essential use when in high pitched situations even against human opponents. I'm not talking about public blobs here. I'm talking good roamers fighting each other, guild groups taking on enemy blobs twice their size or fighting each other.

    Being able to react when jumped out of stealth and with a fraction of a second to respond can be the difference between porting back to that waypoint or having a good fight. Though between two good guild groups, first engage is often the deciding factor, true.

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    Raids are both 'challenging' as you have to memorize the perfect rotations and boss mechanics and at the same time incredible boring and one dimensional - you just play down your list of memorized skills and mechanic reactions and that's basically it. Boring.

    I doubt you are any where near the skill level where everything runs smooth. I'm not disputing that AI opponents can be less challegning than human opponents (which depends on how difficult the encounter is designed and how skilled the human opponents are). I'm saying you are not a person to make that call. If you want to talk down on content, be sure to have at least mastered that content. Everything else comes of as arrogant and very condescending. If you don't like scripted encounters, that's fine.

    As far as rotations. Power thief is pretty close to just autoattacking for very high power damage. Condition shortbow Soulbeast is the same for condition builds. There is classes which have literally no rotation which are perfectly fine for any raid boss.

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    It is hard to imagine how something can be hard AND boring at the same time. ANET managed to pull it off. Doing a raid does not feel good. It does not feel rewarding. Afterwards it is a feeling of 'oh that's it. Hmpf'. Sad.

    So you do not like raiding. Nothing wrong with that. Play what you enjoy and move on.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2019

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    Sometimes all the game needs is to provide a ramp for people to get up to and then to give them a little push.

    This I can agree with ... NOTHING in this game prepares a player for endgame content. It's a big failure in that sense. It's worse the harder the endgame content gets.

    Hence .... players' requests for an easy mode raid platform. Even players recognize this massive gap to get into raids. Honestly, I think if Anet felt raids needed to be a bigger thing in GW2 ... this would be THE way to do it.

    I wouldn't say there is nothing at all, as for me personally climbing Fractals way back until doing CM's (or rather just what is now 99CM back then) did make me feel pretty prepared for Raids in terms of personal skill level.
    The big hurdle for me was finding 9 other people I was comfortable with and to breach that initial anxiety over thinking that Raids were this super difficult content for super hardcore players which just wasn't for me.
    But after reading some guides and watching some videos, even as someone who learns best by doing, it was fine tbh.
    It didn't look that different to what I was already doing and I realised this barrier between the rest of the game and Raids was mostly just something I had put up myself in my head.

    It's just that a lot of people don't want to put in the effort, so even though it was fine for me I can recognize that the game needs to do a bit more to provide a smoother transition into that more hardcore environment.

    Can't disagree with any of that. It's true that people don't want to put in the effort. I think the real question is if they should have to. If we think of players from level 1 to 10 and the game is designed around level 4 and lots of level 4 people play the game ... you would think that Anet would continue to serve level 4, maybe 5 or even 6. Any reasonable game developer wouldn't even think about putting Level 10 in the game .. but here we are and wondering why raids are niche ...

    Yes level 99 CM's prepare you for Raids ... That's a level 9 content that most average level 4,5,6 people in this game don't care to exercise their brains with. So with that in mind, Anet just kept upping the end game content level in raids .... it's really hard to envision what their goal was with that approach IF their goal was to make a highly accessible end game content for most of the players in this game. It simply can't be.

    It was put simply already ... raids are niche because they target the players on the fringe and their aren't many of them compared to the kinds of players this game targeted on release.

    The tragedy is that this game structure is not really satisfactory to anyone ... level 8,9,10 people want more raids. Level 4,5,6 people why Anet abandoned them with this 'hard' content ... and Anet has to figure out how to appease BOTH now, at great expense.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2019

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    Sometimes all the game needs is to provide a ramp for people to get up to and then to give them a little push.

    This I can agree with ... NOTHING in this game prepares a player for endgame content. It's a big failure in that sense. It's worse the harder the endgame content gets.

    Hence .... players' requests for an easy mode raid platform. Even players recognize this massive gap to get into raids. Honestly, I think if Anet felt raids needed to be a bigger thing in GW2 ... this would be THE way to do it.

    I wouldn't say there is nothing at all, as for me personally climbing Fractals way back until doing CM's (or rather just what is now 99CM back then) did make me feel pretty prepared for Raids in terms of personal skill level.
    The big hurdle for me was finding 9 other people I was comfortable with and to breach that initial anxiety over thinking that Raids were this super difficult content for super hardcore players which just wasn't for me.
    But after reading some guides and watching some videos, even as someone who learns best by doing, it was fine tbh.
    It didn't look that different to what I was already doing and I realised this barrier between the rest of the game and Raids was mostly just something I had put up myself in my head.

    It's just that a lot of people don't want to put in the effort, so even though it was fine for me I can recognize that the game needs to do a bit more to provide a smoother transition into that more hardcore environment.

    Can't disagree with any of that. It's true that people don't want to put in the effort. I think the real question is if they should have to. If we think of players from level 1 to 10 and the game is designed around level 4 and lots of level 4 people play the game ... you would think that Anet would continue to serve level 4, maybe 5 or even 6. Any reasonable game developer wouldn't even think about putting Level 10 in the game .. but here we are and wondering why raids are niche ...

    Yes level 99 CM's prepare you for Raids ... That's a level 9 content that most average level 4,5,6 people in this game don't care to exercise their brains with. So with that in mind, Anet just kept upping the end game content level in raids .... it's really hard to envision what their goal was with that approach IF their goal was to make a highly accessible end game content for most of the players in this game. It simply can't be.

    It was put simply already ... raids are niche because they target the players on the fringe and their aren't many of them compared to the kinds of players this game targeted on release.

    The tragedy is that this game structure is not really satisfactory to anyone ... level 8,9,10 people want more raids. Level 4,5,6 people why Anet abandoned them with this 'hard' content ... and Anet has to figure out how to appease BOTH now, at great expense.

    I agree Raids are niche and always will be so, I just think the niche is a lot smaller than it could be. And I do think a lot of people are missing out on great content they not only could do but would really enjoy, just because of some misconceptions about the content that's being propagated and sometimes even just self-imposed.

    Also Raids aren't all equal. If Dhuum CM (or let's say just W5) maybe is the 10, you also have W4 (1-3) which maybe is a 5 or 6.
    So there are easier entry point's already, it's just either not enough, or not telegraphed well enough, especially not at all ingame.

    But as I said in earlier posts, another problem is that the vast majority of the content released isn't even at 4 on this scale by a long shot and barely clears the 1 or 2.
    Considering we are pretty deep into endgame at this point with two max level expansions and all of the living world, imo there just needs to be more of an effort to sprinkle in content on a scale of 2,3,4 and 5, so that there isn't as much of a leap to that content, and so it doesn't feel like people "have to put in that effort", but rather they progress naturally as the content progresses.

    It just seems HoT initially daring to go to 3 or 4 with some of it's prenerf content and the complains that came with that scared Anet off way too much. When they had to realise that people don't always know what they want with a quick complaint being easier than adapting and improving, even if that probably leads to more engagement and fun with the game longterm for them.

    And I might be just wrong here, but I just can't believe people truly enjoy and are long term engaged by walking around and pressing F on things.
    That just seems too dire for me with all these amazing gameplay systems rotting away as backdrop to that.

    What I do not understand though is the sentiment of being abandoned by some casuals with the introduction of the harder content.
    That level of player was in the game before Raids got introduced too and was introduced to precisely serve those players as well, rather than just the 1-4.
    If anyone has reason to feel abandoned it is that hardcore crowd, waiting for example for a single new Fractal CM since over 2 years, for it probably to never come.
    Meanwhile it seems for the once and done LW no expenses are spared.

    Just thinking of all these amazing instances like Fahranur they created over the years, just to only be blasted through once without a care or challenge, instead of turning it into some long lived interesting repeatable group content after the fact to be experienced so many more times.
    The development work is already mostly done, no hyper casual would miss out or be abandoned by not participating, but nothing is done with it.
    This is also where I think the complete abandonment of Dungeons as a concept was a mistake.
    Having anything in the game to keep people grouping up to tackle something even just slightly more challenging than Open World and Story together, while being visible and accessible from the open world would be a huge boon in combating this complete degradation of player skill as well as player isolation that's been happening.

    I just want anything that teaches and then requires at least absolute base knowledge about the game outside of Raids and Fractals at this point, considering Open World and especially Story utterly failed to provide that.
    Because yes, if someone doesn't know what dodging is or how breakbars work, let alone what makes a half decent build and how to play it, because you can still get though all of Open World and Story just fine without any of that, then Raids seems like this impossibly far away thing when it really shouldn't be.

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    So you do not like raiding. Nothing wrong with that. Play what you enjoy and move on.

    and there we have the problem. Most people move on.

    Nobody besides a very tiny subset cares about raids. Wonder why? It is exactly that attitude.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    That's not completely true. The reason why simple rotation were mostly used was because in the era without dps meters it was much harder to do proper estimation of more complicated rotations. Additionally, the "meta" was extremely niche, and something you could have easily ignored in the whole PvE content, both OW and instanced. In fact, because you could not easily see your damage output, 99% of the population was completely unaware of how big the dps difference between average players and 100% efficient ones was, and noticing dps differences between two similar rotations was often beyond the capability of even most hardcore players.

    Still, constant weapon switching for most classes, attunement dance for eles (and kit swapping madness for engis) were completely a thing then, if you wanted to be truly serious about efficiency.

    Also, the "power creep" people keep bringing about is mostly a myth. While it did indeed happen both times after the expac hit, people keep forgetting that each of those cases were preceded by massive wave of nerfs. For example, i keep hearing about how PoF introduced power creep. This is indeed true - but at the same time it is also true that the highest dps builds are builds from the height of HoT era, and nothing in PoF times could even come close to some of those.

    For the engineer, yes. But for other classes... it really was easier. All of the specializations keep adding more and more stuff to maintain, which creeps the power until everything gets nerfed and it becomes the new standard. The core classes had less skills available to them, so they used less skills to do their damage. I still remember many of them:

    Mesmer: You made sword phantasms and then used auto attacks, blurred frenzy, and at the start of the fight, mantra of pain.
    Elementalist: you camped fire in staff using lava font, unless you're using FGS in which case you corner rushed enemies to death.
    Necromancer: You shroud-flashed for buffs and auto attacked with dagger. Lich form off cooldown.
    Warrior: You camped Greatsword and used 100 blades whenever possible.
    Guardian: This one actually required switching. You'd use Scepter 2, then switch to greatsword and use the symbol and spin.
    Thief: Backstab into heartseeker
    Ranger: No clue what this one was
    Engineer: Beethoven's the 5th.

    This was when quickness was a rare unique buff, so outside of Time Warp mo;st classes didn't even get it. On some of these, maybe you could eke out a few extra DPS by swapping weapons around, but for most of them that wasn't really an option.

    That was well before elite specializations. Yes they made rotations more complex 5 years ago, but they've been simplifying them since then.
    Holosmith rotation was simplified, in the most recent patch, no more overheat, no more kits
    Chronomancer rotation was simplified, multiple times
    Weaver rotation was simplified, no more conjures, it looks complex but it's "use all your skills" kind of thing
    Daredevil and Deadeye never had rotations to begin with
    Condi Ranger was removed and Condi Soulbeast has a very simple rotation

    The only really complex rotations remaining in the game are Condi Renegade and Condi Engineer. I suspect they will be simplified soon because it's unreasonable to have only two such complex rotations in the game while the others are rather simple. And Condi Weaver but I don't see anyone playing that anymore, Condi Engineer is also rare.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    So you do not like raiding. Nothing wrong with that. Play what you enjoy and move on.

    and there we have the problem. Most people move on.

    Nobody besides a very tiny subset cares about raids. Wonder why? It is exactly that attitude.

    Attitude? You explained how you do not enjoy scripted encouters and I obliged.

    Most people do not even attempt raids because they do not enjoy raiding (true accross all MMOs). That is not the same as trying them and quitting.

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