[Raids] Why raids in GW2 stayed niched - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

[Raids] Why raids in GW2 stayed niched

2

Comments

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2019

    I see the difficulty of rotations and the huge skill gap being discussed extensively here. However, there are a few more factors to consider. GW2 is possibly the MMO with the largest freedom of stat selection in gear and in buildcraft. In the end the vast majority of stat sets and trait combinations are completely worthless compared to the optimal meta. If you take current WoW as an example, you will see that players are more limited in their choices there, which means that you cannot make builds that are absolutely worthless. No matter what talents you choose and no matter your gear choice (as long as it's the high ilvl gear) you will be at least somewhat effective. All the gear has stats that change depending on your spec, which means that you cannot kitten up your damage by taking soldier's gear. In WoW you do not choose which skills to slot either, which makes having an effective build even easier. Even worse, GW2 has this exponential scaling in power damage with the power, precision, ferocity trio. Taking hybrid defense and offense gear in GW2 reduces your damage more than in any other game that I can recall. Overall, the difference between a good build and a bad build is astronomical in GW2, which is an additional issue when you add in that skill gap as well. You have all of these complex systems in GW2 and there is no proper tutorial.

    Then there are the boons. The boons in GW2 are way way way too strong. In many other MMOs you do not need to have an entire profession with a rotation solely dedicated to keeping buffs up. They are usually easier to apply. However, these buffs do not double or triple your damage and survivability. In GW2, If your group has bad boon support it is automatically 2x worse even if all the DPSers are amazing at their jobs. Now if you have such a group with less competent damage dealers it gets even worse. I wouldn't be surprised if an optimal group outclassed a noob group by 10x in terms of efficiency. Let's look at PvP too for a moment. Why is holosmith damage so broken in PvP while being one of the lowest DPS classes in PvE? The builds that are used in these modes are different for sure, but there is more to it. In PvP you do not have have constant access to all the boons from your supports. This means that holosmith's ability to get easy might, quickness and stability makes it much more powerful than other choices because of how insane GW2 boons can be. Why does reaper usually do more damage than weaver in solo PvE? Because of the boons. Boons are just broken.

    Edit: Just compare perma-quickness to this https://www.wowhead.com/spell=80353/time-warp, It's like night and day.

    There is so much that can go wrong in GW2 compared to other games that it is genuinely difficult to learn for people trying to get into raids and even high level fractals. There are too many mechanics that are needlessly convoluted or uninuitive, such as the stat system, the boons, combos, not seeing cooldowns etc. They have made no effort to fix these or to at least add a tutorial. There is still no tutorial on breakbars. Maybe some players will understand what you mean when you tell them to CC. However, they will not understand the difference between how hard and soft CC affect the bar and what is best for breaking it. With all of these factors it's no wonder most players are bad. Other games do not have more skilled playerbases, GW2 is simply much harder to learn.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ganathar.4956 said:
    Then there are the boons. The boons in GW2 are way way way too strong. In many other MMOs you do not need to have an entire profession with a rotation solely dedicated to keeping buffs up.

    While I agree that boons are very strong, the alternative is to make them weaker and remove them from the meta. If boons are weaker they:
    A.) remain a necessity because the overall benefit is greater to the party of having them
    B.) become to weak and as such are not required any longer, parties are then only pure dps
    C.) content and classes would need to get rebalanced around no boons or weaker boons or content becomes directly harder

    There is a reason why many experienced players refer to good boon uptime as easy mode.

    In other MMOs you are less penalized for not bringing certain buffs, but you are gated by trinity and most buffs are provided via the innate trinity anyway.

    GW2 has role compression which is simply more difficult than a given trinity in other games. The reason why this is more difficult is because adapting and playing in a more open environment without forced trinity demands more flexibility from players.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Meh imo Nike's video explains it better.

  • Cristalyan.5728Cristalyan.5728 Member ✭✭✭

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    Hi,

    raids in GW2 are little pieces of art and game mechanic heaven, that sadly never really took off and now are well on their way to decline into nothingness. Thats extremely sad, because, well, as I said, raids in GW2 are so well designed. But there are several fundamental flaws with how they got implemented, and with GW2 in general tbh.

    The most important flaw is that the raids were designed with the idea to be completed by very few. This is officially, please search for what Collin said. So, it was a niche content even from the design phase. I can say the raids now behave as expected from the very beginning. The difference now is that even the raiders started to admit how niche this content is.

    @thrag.9740 said:
    your way overthinking it. Its simple:

    -gw2 is a casual game
    -raids are not casual

    Indeed. But why the raids are not casual? Because of the difficulty? In my opinion NO. The difficulty is not the real reason. I consider myself a casual. Without any ambition to gain a place in the top 10% (let's say) players. But still, I can follow my objectives. I completed the Mad King Tower JP enough times to have all the AP from it. I solo-ed the last instance from HoT story. It was not easy for me, it took time, but I done it. I have 3 legendary armors from WvW (I forgot when I started and I don;t even know if I will be ever able to complete the other tier legendary armors). I have the precursors for all the legendary trinkets - I will turn them into legendary if we will have the possibility to craft them as many times as we want. I cleared 11 bosses from Queen gauntlet few days ago - in one session. I lost 3 times to Liadri and and I stopped. I wait another day with more than 2 hours of play to try to defeat her.

    Why all this presentation of "deeds"? To show that even a casual, non ambitious player can defeat hard content. So, not the hard content makes the raids non casual friendly.

    In my opinion what makes the raids so unfriendly for casuals is the 10 man composition. And the fact that ANet is still sticking to the idea that the raids should be completed by very few. I will explain:

    Even if the casuals can work to overcome difficult content, this particular case is different. Here I cannot try 2-3...10 times the content and to learn how to improve my performance. Because here is a 10 man content and another 9 players are condemned to failure if I fail. This is not something happily accepted by a PUG group. On the other hand, a casual is not the player to change his RL schedule according to the timer of an event in a game. So, this was the way Anet choose to make the raids harder. They knew the structure of the GW2 playerbase and opted for the hardest hurdle :# - the social component. This is what makes the difference between a casual and an hardcore player. Making a static group of 10 casuals for a long period of time is virtually impossible in my opinion. And ANet knew this and the number of 10 players was not the result of hazard. Because this was the best way to keep the raid into the niche it was designed for.

    The other way to help preserving the status of niche content for raids was to change the builds and classes in such a drastic way that to keep raiding you should spend a lot of gold. Something a casual is not happy to do many times. As an example, now, in this days, the Chronomancer, the only and single class in the game able to use Alacrity is the second best in generating Alacrity, and .... modest in sharing it. Why? Because at some point the PUG's learned the raids and with the help of Alacrity and Quiqnes they were able to complete the raids. They turned the niche content into something accessible to many. Intolerable.

    To speak here about build changes? In the very beginning of the raids I was interested because I wanted to maximize my Mastery Points. And I geared my Chrono for raids. Lots of gold for me. I raided few times and a change struck. Almost all my gear was useless. I kept it for Open World and I crafted Commander Gear. Other runes, other sigills. After 2 months this build was useless again due to a change :/. I think this was the moment I decided to craft my Legendary Armor. To be protected by these changes. And that was the moment I decided that the raids are not my content.

    So, in my opinion, these are the causes of the raid position now: ANet decision to make them niche content, adding for this a social component very hard to bypass for the casual players and changing the "rules" for raiding every time too many players started to complete them.

    Just my opinion.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2019

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Meh imo Nike's video explains it better.

    While I agree with some things of Nike's video. Quite a lot of it is an opinion piece. I could have told you at the beginning of HoT that this game would never hold the hardcore crowd and that has nothing to do with raid deployment. It has and always was due to the gear cap and unique non trinity game design.

    Even with raid wings coming out every 3 months, the current problem of raids being niche and the problems of rewards ever since wing 5 released would exist. Nike and his dead guild are looking at the game from a very hardcore perspective. Suffice to say, that group of players has always been a minority in all MMORPGs and has little to do with why the big majority of the player base do not raid.

    As such, Nike might be to some extent right as to why the hardcore crowd does not raid or leave for other games, but last I checked, this thread is not about that.

  • Magnus Godrik.5841Magnus Godrik.5841 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Let me make this painfully clear RAIDING is niche in every mmo. From my understanding less than 3% of mmo players raid apparently. The difference between them is overall player population. So of course the other mmos seem more active. The reason being they have idk 4, 5, 6 times more players. Simple math ill show you. If gw2 has 100 raiders, WOW will have 600. What a big difference player population impacts a game. And dont forget they have to a pay a monthly. So again, math time boys, if 600 pays 10 bucks a month thats 6000 dollars. So with gw2 if 100 players pay 0 a month its, take a guess i dare you, 0 dollars. Its a kitten miracle we get what we get. Hope this answers the obvious on the reason why we get what we get. Cash shop is different and most of those people dont raid so why should they pay for it.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Meh imo Nike's video explains it better.

    While I agree with some things of Nike's video. Quite a lot of it is an opinion piece. I could have told you at the beginning of HoT that this game would never hold the hardcore crowd and that has nothing to do with raid deployment. It has and always was due to the gear cap and unique non trinity game design.

    Even with raid wings coming out every 3 months, the current problem of raids being niche and the problems of rewards ever since wing 5 released would exist. Nike and his dead guild are looking at the game from a very hardcore perspective. Suffice to say, that group of players has always been a minority in all MMORPGs and has little to do with why the big majority of the player base do not raid.

    As such, Nike might be to some extent right as to why the hardcore crowd does not raid or leave for other games, but last I checked, this thread is not about that.

    Hardcores or casual and minorities or majorities aside it doesnt matter what you like in a game, if that thing u like is barely supported you will lose hope for the game.

    And a raid every 9 months will do just that.

    Besides as much as nike's piece is opinionated so much is the op's, from the 4 points they make i mostly argee with two, the second and fourth.

    His first point is ignoring that there are defined roles and raid compositions use them such as tanks, healers and dps. the fact that every class can be any of the 3 is smth but doesnt really bring down the experience.

    His third point is also false, not enough content? Not enough of a community? Excuse me? The relevant raiding content u have to clear on a weekly basis in gw2 rn is the highest of all the big mmos (unless eso is simmilar but idk). The fact that the game doesnt move on means everything stays relevant and worth clearing if you deem raids worth clearing.

    Community? Mayhaps now that point rings true but only because raids and the raiding scene got where it is today.

    Their fourth point is solid, past the legendaries the rest of the loot is lackluster and that turns ppl away from clearing past that point.

    All in all if i were to say what really brough the scene where it is now is 2 things mainly: 1. mode killing release cadence, 2. raids that after a point pleased little to no one.

    On the second point: Raids where designed to be the endgame challenging content and the last 2 raids havent accomplished that, allienating that playerbase in the process. But also, as nike pointed out w7 failed to grab the attention of the ppl asking for easy raids as did w6 so literally, its content neither of the parties enjoy.

    Its no secret all other mmos have at least 2 dificulty modes to please the 2 largest groups, something that gw2 doesnt do and for that its raids continue to bleed players.

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @thrag.9740 said:
    your way overthinking it. Its simple:

    -gw2 is a casual game
    -raids are not casual

    ...
    In my opinion what makes the raids so unfriendly for casuals is the 10 man composition. And the fact that ANet is still sticking to the idea that the raids should be completed by very few. I will explain:

    Even if the casuals can work to overcome difficult content, this particular case is different. Here I cannot try 2-3...10 times the content and to learn how to improve my performance. Because here is a 10 man content and another 9 players are condemned to failure if I fail. This is not something happily accepted by a PUG group. On the other hand, a casual is not the player to change his RL schedule according to the timer of an event in a game. So, this was the way Anet choose to make the raids harder. They knew the structure of the GW2 playerbase and opted for the hardest hurdle :# - the social component. This is what makes the difference between a casual and an hardcore player. Making a static group of 10 casuals for a long period of time is virtually impossible in my opinion. And ANet knew this and the number of 10 players was not the result of hazard. Because this was the best way to keep the raid into the niche it was designed for.

    Allow me to rephrase my first point:
    -raids require teamwork
    -gw2 is anti-teamwork

    A large portion of the player base play this game as a solo game. Although 10 vs 5 players does produce a slight barrier, the much larger barrier is simply the fact that raids require a lot more teamwork/coordination. Double the health of everything in fractals and make them 10 man. The players who treat gw2 as a solo game will still do fractals. Why? Because you don't need much of a plan for anything in fractals. In raids, if you don't have a plan for sabetha cannons for example, your group will 100% not beat the boss Same for dhuum greens. This is the case for many bosses. But fractals? Even in cms, there isn't any coordination that compares to raids.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @thrag.9740 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @thrag.9740 said:
    your way overthinking it. Its simple:

    -gw2 is a casual game
    -raids are not casual

    ...
    In my opinion what makes the raids so unfriendly for casuals is the 10 man composition. And the fact that ANet is still sticking to the idea that the raids should be completed by very few. I will explain:

    Even if the casuals can work to overcome difficult content, this particular case is different. Here I cannot try 2-3...10 times the content and to learn how to improve my performance. Because here is a 10 man content and another 9 players are condemned to failure if I fail. This is not something happily accepted by a PUG group. On the other hand, a casual is not the player to change his RL schedule according to the timer of an event in a game. So, this was the way Anet choose to make the raids harder. They knew the structure of the GW2 playerbase and opted for the hardest hurdle :# - the social component. This is what makes the difference between a casual and an hardcore player. Making a static group of 10 casuals for a long period of time is virtually impossible in my opinion. And ANet knew this and the number of 10 players was not the result of hazard. Because this was the best way to keep the raid into the niche it was designed for.

    Allow me to rephrase my first point:
    -raids require teamwork
    -gw2 is anti-teamwork

    A large portion of the player base play this game as a solo game. Although 10 vs 5 players does produce a slight barrier, the much larger barrier is simply the fact that raids require a lot more teamwork/coordination. Double the health of everything in fractals and make them 10 man. The players who treat gw2 as a solo game will still do fractals. Why? Because you don't need much of a plan for anything in fractals. In raids, if you don't have a plan for sabetha cannons for example, your group will 100% not beat the boss Same for dhuum greens. This is the case for many bosses. But fractals? Even in cms, there isn't any coordination that compares to raids.

    Not all 10 players need to do smth other than dps at all times, theres always 4 or 5 key roles that 4 or 5 ppl will be doing and the rest will simply deal dmg. Its not too diff from fractals with the only diff being that in fractal cms the 4 or 5 key roles will will have to be done by the entirety of the group. For each individual player the personal responsibility in fractals is greater.

    Gw2 has at large many areas that require little teamwork, namely all of the open world but to perform well in many others communication is key, such as wvw guilds fighting, high lvl spvp matches, t4 cms and raids.

    Hell u even saw it in ow to a very small extend in the hot metas like auric basin, early chak gerent and Ds.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Not all 10 players need to do smth other than dps at all times, theres always 4 or 5 key roles that 4 or 5 ppl will be doing and the rest will simply deal dmg.

    You still need coordination to make sure that those 4-5 key roles are being covered. If you'll go into raids with the same mindset as in the other parts of pve, you will likely find out that there's no tank, there's one healer (that heals, but doesn't provide boons), one mechanic is being done by 3 people, while noone's doing another...

    Its not too diff from fractals with the only diff being that in fractal cms the 4 or 5 key roles will will have to be done by the entirety of the group. For each individual player the personal responsibility in fractals is greater.

    That's exactly what Thrag was talking about - raids move part of the difficulty from personal level to an organizational/teamwork one. In raids, you don't need to play better. You need to coordinate better.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Not all 10 players need to do smth other than dps at all times, theres always 4 or 5 key roles that 4 or 5 ppl will be doing and the rest will simply deal dmg.

    You still need coordination to make sure that those 4-5 key roles are being covered. If you'll go into raids with the same mindset as in the other parts of pve, you will likely find out that there's no tank, there's one healer (that heals, but doesn't provide boons), one mechanic is being done by 3 people, while noone's doing another...

    Thankfully you have the ability to make your own groups with your requirements or join statics and make sure 90% of the issues u would see in a pug domt happen.

    All im saying that the coordination between 4 or 5 ppl isnt new and have existed in fractals and to a much less skillful extend in ow with metas.

    Its not too diff from fractals with the only diff being that in fractal cms the 4 or 5 key roles will will have to be done by the entirety of the group. For each individual player the personal responsibility in fractals is greater.

    That's exactly what Thrag was talking about - raids move part of the difficulty from personal level to an organizational/teamwork one. In raids, you don't need to play better. You need to coordinate better.

    I disagree, when it comes to doing the mechanics you can see the same coordination exist in fractals, the team needs to coordinate who will do what, who will cc what who will kill what in what order etc.

    In metas the groups need to coordinate how things are progressing in diff lanes, if a lanes needs help or not etc.

    Again most mechanics are done by half pf less than half of the ppl in a raid group and you can communicate that before the fight even begins.

    Could anet do more? Yeah, they could have all the bosses of lw be group content that you have to group up with others to tackle, that would get ppl in the mindset for raids, but the lack of it doesnt mean raids were destined to fail. The community was ready to support and help players understand the encounters and fractals has introduced similar concepts to easy the entry.

  • AlexxxDelta.1806AlexxxDelta.1806 Member ✭✭✭

    Raids are niche because they are meant to be so., at least in the context of this game. The type of content they offer is of no interest to the majority and that's fine.

    Take FromSoft games for example. They are well made, critically acclaimed games. They have created their own niche, with their higher difficulty. But they will never become as mainstream as other games because the vast majority of gamers enjoy playing more casually. And that's fine.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zealex.9410 said:
    His third point is also false, not enough content? Not enough of a community? Excuse me? The relevant raiding content u have to clear on a weekly basis in gw2 rn is the highest of all the big mmos (unless eso is simmilar but idk). The fact that the game doesnt move on means everything stays relevant and worth clearing if you deem raids worth clearing.

    It’s not false as there is such a thing as exhausting content where you have done it enough times that you have all of the rewards and it’s not really worth the effort anymore. It’s really no different than veteran open world players saying there’s a lack of content despite having all of those living story maps. Or anyone else saying there’s a content drought such as the one back in 2015.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    His third point is also false, not enough content? Not enough of a community? Excuse me? The relevant raiding content u have to clear on a weekly basis in gw2 rn is the highest of all the big mmos (unless eso is simmilar but idk). The fact that the game doesnt move on means everything stays relevant and worth clearing if you deem raids worth clearing.

    It’s not false as there is such a thing as exhausting content where you have done it enough times that you have all of the rewards and it’s not really worth the effort anymore. It’s really no different than veteran open world players saying there’s a lack of content despite having all of those living story maps. Or anyone else saying there’s a content drought such as the one back in 2015.

    True and as you said that can happen with in all kinds of content gw2 puts out but thats the point, the whole game is designed this way and all bits of content can be exausted if ppl do them enough, its not specifucally a weakness to raids anymore than it is to fractals or ow. Een pvp game modes suffer because the meta grows stale because not enough balance happens.

    Still it works in favour of gw2 when it comes to bringing in new ppl, because unlike mmos where only 9 bosses or 5 maps are relevant at any given time and expansion for new ppl to raids, dungeons and ow the list grows.

    Besides, not all mmos like like wow that gets 4 or so 9-boss raids per expansion, ff14 iirc gets like 4 bosses per couple of months (7 or 6 i think?) thats bosses which have a hard mode. They do get easy raids inbetween and trials which are one boss fights but in general those dont scratch the challenging content itch.

    Edit: also ultimates, forgot those. Still nowhere near mmos like world of warcraft.

    I assume anet find the fact that content remains relevant past its release lomgterm as an excuse for the slow pace.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    His third point is also false, not enough content? Not enough of a community? Excuse me? The relevant raiding content u have to clear on a weekly basis in gw2 rn is the highest of all the big mmos (unless eso is simmilar but idk). The fact that the game doesnt move on means everything stays relevant and worth clearing if you deem raids worth clearing.

    It’s not false as there is such a thing as exhausting content where you have done it enough times that you have all of the rewards and it’s not really worth the effort anymore. It’s really no different than veteran open world players saying there’s a lack of content despite having all of those living story maps. Or anyone else saying there’s a content drought such as the one back in 2015.

    True and as you said that can happen with in all kinds of content gw2 puts out but thats the point, the whole game is designed this way and all bits of content can be exausted if ppl do them enough, its not specifucally a weakness to raids anymore than it is to fractals or ow. Een pvp game modes suffer because the meta grows stale because not enough balance happens.

    Except it’s content that’s geared toward them and produced a a slow pace. It’s the same thing that WvW and sPvP players have been experiencing when they see open world getting all of these updates.

    Imagine if the content release structure were flipped and raids got the majority of the content releases and OW only got updates every 9 months. Would the OW players react any differently? Would the argument hold any less weight?

    I assume anet find the fact that content remains relevant past its release lomgterm as an excuse for the slow pace.

    I don’t believe relevancy has anything to do with the current pacing.

  • Bakeneko.5826Bakeneko.5826 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    His third point is also false, not enough content? Not enough of a community? Excuse me? The relevant raiding content u have to clear on a weekly basis in gw2 rn is the highest of all the big mmos (unless eso is simmilar but idk). The fact that the game doesnt move on means everything stays relevant and worth clearing if you deem raids worth clearing.

    It’s not false as there is such a thing as exhausting content where you have done it enough times that you have all of the rewards and it’s not really worth the effort anymore. It’s really no different than veteran open world players saying there’s a lack of content despite having all of those living story maps. Or anyone else saying there’s a content drought such as the one back in 2015.

    True and as you said that can happen with in all kinds of content gw2 puts out but thats the point, the whole game is designed this way and all bits of content can be exausted if ppl do them enough, its not specifucally a weakness to raids anymore than it is to fractals or ow. Een pvp game modes suffer because the meta grows stale because not enough balance happens.

    Except it’s content that’s geared toward them and produced a a slow pace. It’s the same thing that WvW and sPvP players have been experiencing when they see open world getting all of these updates.

    Imagine if the content release structure were flipped and raids got the majority of the content releases and OW only got updates every 9 months. Would the OW players react any differently? Would the argument hold any less weight?

    I assume anet find the fact that content remains relevant past its release lomgterm as an excuse for the slow pace.

    I don’t believe relevancy has anything to do with the current pacing.

    If OW started getting updates, like it had pre-HoT, it would start bleeding players very rapidly again

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 14, 2019

    Unfortunately, here is what people on all sides of this conversation have to accept - what we have now is the best it's going to get. With the consolidation of resources at Anet, there is virtually zero chance of raids coming out more often or of them adding any significant new features (including difficulty scaling) (In fact, in terms of how often they come out, I would fully expect the wait to increase). The same can be said of better rewards - it just doesn't make sense to dedicate resources to creating the kind of rewards it would take to keep people raiding long term -and, with fewer people raiding, they risk separating players even more if they go too far down the "more power as a reward" path. The unique skin approach is the best you can hope for. As far as current difficulty, without scaling, their only real option is to look for a "happy medium" somewhere between the less skilled and highly skilled players interested in the game mode - and I am just not sure that is possible.

    So, each player has to decide if the mode is something of interest for them personally or not based on what it is now rather than what they think it could be, because it isn't likely to change in any meaningful way anytime soon.

    Hoping that they can magically make more of them than what they are now is just yelling at the clouds - it really wont make a difference.

  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    Unfortunately, here is what people on all sides of this conversation have to accept - what we have now is the best it's going to get. With the consolidation of resources at Anet, there is virtually zero chance of raids coming out more often or of them adding any significant new features (including difficulty scaling) (In fact, in terms of how often they come out, I would fully expect the wait to increase). The same can be said of better rewards - it just doesn't make sense to dedicate resources to creating the kind of rewards it would take to keep people raiding long term -and, with fewer people raiding, they risk separating players even more if they go too far down the "more power as a reward" path. The unique skin approach is the best you can hope for. As far as current difficulty, without scaling, their only real option is to look for a "happy medium" somewhere between the less skilled and highly skilled players interested in the game mode - and I am just not sure that is possible.

    So, each player has to decide if the mode is something of interest for them personally or not based on what it is now rather than what they think it could be, because it isn't likely to change in any meaningful way anytime soon.

    Hoping that they can magically make more of them than what they are now is just yelling at the clouds - it really wont make a difference.

    Im sorry, but this is nonsense.
    Scaling and repeatable rewards - Those two demands of the raiding community really are NOT expensive or difficult to implement. Anet just doesnt want to.

    Easy mode for example: Add a buff to each player that buffs all boons every 5 or 10 seconds. Done.
    Hardmode: Add denied downstate buff to every player. Done
    Repeat raid rewards: Add achievement a la dungeoneering achievement that gives out gold + champ bags. Done.

    Sorry, but no. Anet just doesnt want to do this. Its not a matter of not enough resources.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    Scaling and repeatable rewards - Those two demands of the raiding community really are NOT expensive or difficult to implement.

    Perhaps that is so when looking only at resources and effort needed. Things become completely different however when you want to meet the "demands" of the community. Remember, that the raid community (or at least a very vocal part of it) does not want easy mode at all. What they want is more CMs and repeatable rewards for those. And while those might not be expensive to implement, it would still be relatively expensive compared to the amount of players that would benefit from it (remember, CMs are for only part of raiding community). Making a reasonable reward is also not trivial - too little and noone will care. Too much and it will cause farming, and will pull players from normal mode.
    Easy mode on the other hand would be something that might benefit a lot more players, but is also something that quite a number of veteran raiders are afraid of (because they think it would destroy raids, "like LFR destroyed WoW"). Problem of rewards for that mode is also not trivial.

    So, it is not as effortless and easy as you say. It might have been still worthwhile some time ago, when raids still had decent population, but today Anet might not be willing to unsettle the status quo and deal with some raiders' ire for the unlikely chance that it might help keep the mode afloat for a while longer (instead of dealing the finishing blow).

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2019

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    Scaling and repeatable rewards - Those two demands of the raiding community really are NOT expensive or difficult to implement.

    Perhaps that is so when looking only at resources and effort needed. Things become completely different however when you want to meet the "demands" of the community. Remember, that the raid community (or at least a very vocal part of it) does not want easy mode at all. What they want is more CMs and repeatable rewards for those. And while those might not be expensive to implement, it would still be relatively expensive compared to the amount of players that would benefit from it (remember, CMs are for only part of raiding community). Making a reasonable reward is also not trivial - too little and noone will care. Too much and it will cause farming, and will pull players from normal mode.
    Easy mode on the other hand would be something that might benefit a lot more players, but is also something that quite a number of veteran raiders are afraid of (because they think it would destroy raids, "like LFR destroyed WoW"). Problem of rewards for that mode is also not trivial.

    So, it is not as effortless and easy as you say. It might have been still worthwhile some time ago, when raids still had decent population, but today Anet might not be willing to unsettle the status quo and deal with some raiders' ire for the unlikely chance that it might help keep the mode afloat for a while longer (instead of dealing the finishing blow).

    You are completely wrong there. We dont want easy mode AT THE COST of more raids, that was the proposal we got about 1-2 years ago from a dev here on the forum. Also, not a single veteran thinks easy mode would destroy raids, or split the community, or whatever, thats absolute nonsense. The only problem vets had with easy mode was that it was said it would be either easy mode OR new raid. Nothing else.

    And while repeatable CMs would be nice, Im sure pretty much everybody would be okay with "just" a hardmode.

    Rewards are easy, at this point pretty much nearly everything is better than what we have. But here's some quick math for you: full clear approx 3hours with a good pug, 25 encounters -> makes roughly 7 minutes per encounter. Lets say the achievement gives reward at 18 encounters (so you dont have to kill any "endbosses"), thats 7minutes * 18 encounters -> roughly 2hours worth of gold. SW RIBA is what... 15g/h? 20g/h? Something around that. So lets say put 25g as reward, after all, SW is more challenging and anet hates raids..... rest is easy, put those 25g not as raw gold but part gold, part champ bags into the achievement box -> voila.
    As for rewards, its really quite easy. Anet could either go with 3 weekly bonus rewards (1 per mode), or shift rewards towards the repeatable achievement chest. Hardmode progresses both hardmode and normal mode achievement with increased rewards on the hardmode chest, normal mode only progresses normal mode achievement. No gold for easy mode. Ascended/minis, LI, currencies stay in weekly chest.

    The argument of "too costly" just doesnt fly. Especially since anet repeatedly releases throwaway content aka "living story".

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2019

    Let's be honest here ... it's WAY more costly to develop raid content for a small portion of the playerbase than it is to expand the current raids to incorporate an easy mode to appeal to a way more significant part of the playerbase. The ROI on including an easy mode is much higher.

    Even if it was exactly double the cost to implement a similar easy mode for every raid that currently exists, it's not hard to think Anet would easily more than doubling the population of people interested in completing raids if they did that.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    You are completely wrong there. We dont want easy mode AT THE COST of more raids, that was the proposal we got about 1-2 years ago from a dev here on the forum. Also, not a single veteran thinks easy mode would destroy raids, or split the community, or whatever, thats absolute nonsense.

    You might want to reread all the raid threads from the current and past forums, because this argument isn't mine, but was something quite a number of raid veterans brought up. Remember, "LFR destroyed WoW raids" (a sentiment that is also very popular somehow).

    The only problem vets had with easy mode was that it was said it would be either easy mode OR new raid. Nothing else.

    If developing an additional mode would be hard and costly enough to slow down development of raids then, what makes you think it would be different now?
    Although it wasn't really an Anet's argument, but (again) was something brought up from the raiders' side at the time raiders thought raids were thriving, and didn't want easy mode bringing casuals in and spoiling their fun.

    And while repeatable CMs would be nice, Im sure pretty much everybody would be okay with "just" a hardmode.

    That's the same.

    Rewards are easy, at this point pretty much nearly everything is better than what we have. But here's some quick math for you: full clear approx 3hours with a good pug, 25 encounters -> makes roughly 7 minutes per encounter. Lets say the achievement gives reward at 18 encounters (so you dont have to kill any "endbosses"), thats 7minutes * 18 encounters -> roughly 2hours worth of gold. SW RIBA is what... 15g/h? 20g/h? Something around that. So lets say put 25g as reward, after all, SW is more challenging and anet hates raids..... rest is easy, put those 25g not as raw gold but part gold, part champ bags into the achievement box -> voila.
    As for rewards, its really quite easy. Anet could either go with 3 weekly bonus rewards (1 per mode), or shift rewards towards the repeatable achievement chest. Hardmode progresses both hardmode and normal mode achievement with increased rewards on the hardmode chest, normal mode only progresses normal mode achievement. No gold for easy mode. Ascended/minis, LI, currencies stay in weekly chest.

    So, what rewards exactly would easy mode have? And what difficulty level would you envision for them? (remember, current fractals with their not so small rewards are currently dying out as well, so, considering easy mode would require 10-man teams, rewards would need to be better just to have equal interest).

    The argument of "too costly" just doesnt fly. Especially since anet repeatedly releases throwaway content aka "living story".

    that "throwaway content" is for 90% of the game population. I sincerely doubt easy mode would be that easy. Besides, that LS content you speak of also doesn;t seem to be doing a good job of keeping the interest in the game up. If Anet want to keep players, they will need to put more effort in it as well.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2019

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    You are completely wrong there. We dont want easy mode AT THE COST of more raids, that was the proposal we got about 1-2 years ago from a dev here on the forum. Also, not a single veteran thinks easy mode would destroy raids, or split the community, or whatever, thats absolute nonsense.

    You might want to reread all the raid threads from the current and past forums, because this argument isn't mine, but was something quite a number of raid veterans brought up. Remember, "LFR destroyed WoW raids" (a sentiment that is also very popular somehow).

    LFR has nothing to do with raiding. There is also no data which suggests that LFR in any way increased the raiding population in WoW (or other MMORPGs). It's best viewed as additional game mode which shares resources with raiding. Sort of how story episodes share resources with Living World Maps.

    Now one could make the argument that a LFR type mode would be cost efficient enough to allow for additional, raid unrelated, content. That would not be possible with the current developer and resource allocation though.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    The only problem vets had with easy mode was that it was said it would be either easy mode OR new raid. Nothing else.

    If developing an additional mode would be hard and costly enough to slow down development of raids then, what makes you think it would be different now?
    Although it wasn't really an Anet's argument, but (again) was something brought up from the raiders' side at the time raiders thought raids were thriving, and didn't want easy mode bringing casuals in and spoiling their fun.

    This had/has nothing to do with spoiling anyones fun. It's always been about resource allocation.

    Making more raids and raid modes would have, and still means, to make GW2 more raid centric. Last I checked, Arenanet has been doubling down on casual periodic content. How about we devote one of the Living World Teams to challenging instanced content? I doubt that would go over well with the majority of the playerbase.

    The problems with raids go far beyond how accessible they are and touch on subjects like:

    • no gear progression
    • no proper rewards for challenging content
    • insane difference in performance requirements between game modes
    • etc.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    The argument of "too costly" just doesnt fly. Especially since anet repeatedly releases throwaway content aka "living story".

    that "throwaway content" is for 90% of the game population. I sincerely doubt easy mode would be that easy. Besides, that LS content you speak of also doesn;t seem to be doing a good job of keeping the interest in the game up. If Anet want to keep players, they will need to put more effort in it as well.

    This I agree with. Both on that the vast majority of players want non raid related content, as well as that Living World content does not hold players interest permanently.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    that "throwaway content" is for 90% of the game population. I sincerely doubt easy mode would be that easy. Besides, that LS content you speak of also doesn;t seem to be doing a good job of keeping the interest in the game up. If Anet want to keep players, they will need to put more effort in it as well.

    That assumes 90% of the population plays the Living Story. Does it? The 90% of the population finished all living worlds story instances so far? My guess is that no, not even close. There is this weird assumption on the forums that everything that is in the open world is "for the 90%" or "for the majority", while Raids are for a "tiny minority". Yet I see absolutely no evidence to support that the living world is finished by that 90%. For example, what's the number of players that finished War Eternal compared to the "entire playerbase"?

    As for your second part, I agree. The LS doesn't seem to keep interest up, but that's by design, it's supposed to be filler content, to fill the gaps between bigger releases. I really hope S5 will be such a big release.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I believe a bunch of raiders were fine witb easy modes and all that jazz if it didnt slow development.

  • @Yasi.9065 said:

    Im sorry, but this is nonsense.
    Scaling and repeatable rewards - Those two demands of the raiding community really are NOT expensive or difficult to implement. Anet just doesnt want to.

    Easy mode for example: Add a buff to each player that buffs all boons every 5 or 10 seconds. Done.
    Hardmode: Add denied downstate buff to every player. Done
    Repeat raid rewards: Add achievement a la dungeoneering achievement that gives out gold + champ bags. Done.

    Sorry, but no. Anet just doesnt want to do this. Its not a matter of not enough resources.

    Technically Arenanet has been developing an easy and a hard version of each raid encounter ever since wing 4. Probably had an effect on the release cadence, but so much for "impossible due to lack of resources".

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Katary.7096 said:

    @Yasi.9065 said:

    Im sorry, but this is nonsense.
    Scaling and repeatable rewards - Those two demands of the raiding community really are NOT expensive or difficult to implement. Anet just doesnt want to.

    Easy mode for example: Add a buff to each player that buffs all boons every 5 or 10 seconds. Done.
    Hardmode: Add denied downstate buff to every player. Done
    Repeat raid rewards: Add achievement a la dungeoneering achievement that gives out gold + champ bags. Done.

    Sorry, but no. Anet just doesnt want to do this. Its not a matter of not enough resources.

    Technically Arenanet has been developing an easy and a hard version of each raid encounter ever since wing 4. Probably had an effect on the release cadence, but so much for "impossible due to lack of resources".

    Cms add another ability, tweak another and increase hp. All the suggestions about easy ask to tweak every single ability. You can see the difference in resources required

  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2019

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Katary.7096 said:

    @Yasi.9065 said:

    Im sorry, but this is nonsense.
    Scaling and repeatable rewards - Those two demands of the raiding community really are NOT expensive or difficult to implement. Anet just doesnt want to.

    Easy mode for example: Add a buff to each player that buffs all boons every 5 or 10 seconds. Done.
    Hardmode: Add denied downstate buff to every player. Done
    Repeat raid rewards: Add achievement a la dungeoneering achievement that gives out gold + champ bags. Done.

    Sorry, but no. Anet just doesnt want to do this. Its not a matter of not enough resources.

    Technically Arenanet has been developing an easy and a hard version of each raid encounter ever since wing 4. Probably had an effect on the release cadence, but so much for "impossible due to lack of resources".

    Cms add another ability, tweak another and increase hp. All the suggestions about easy ask to tweak every single ability. You can see the difference in resources required

    Neither teapots nor my suggestion ask to tweak anything actually. Teapots suggestions was to add the "basically unkillable" buff from living story 4 to raids, mine is to add a buff that gives out all boons. Hardmode no downstate debuff is also inspired by teapot's upcoming raid tournament.

    And honestly, Im pretty sure anet devs did think of something like that already. That we dont get it is a management decision, pure and simple. Nothing to do with it being too resource draining.

    Hence, raids stay niche content and it will only take a single good raiding mmo being released onto the market, for raids in GW2 to die.

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Cms add another ability, tweak another and increase hp.

    Generally true.

    All the suggestions about easy ask to tweak every single ability.

    Then all the suggestions for easy mode design are lacking in creativity.

    You can see the difference in resources required

    I beg your pardon, but no I can not and for the matter of fact neither can you. I am confident that there is a difference in required resources, but people on the outside will likely be unable to quantify it accurately. What I personally believe is this: Given the current state of raid development it is definitely possible for Arenanet to commit to two different difficulty settings, with a decent chance that it will slow down releases by a measure of months. Since a new wing roughly every nine months is insufficient for sustaining the raiding scene, the worst consequence would be that raiding in Guild Wars 2 dies slightly faster than it is doing at the moment.
    Perhaps you have an incredibly detailed vision regarding the implementation of multiple difficulties and that specific version may very well be impossible. All I am saying is that the developers would be capable of delivering a functioning difficulty split, because they have been doing it partially for some time.

  • Yeah. I actually wanted to raid in this game and it's just really hard to break into. My guild canceled their training runs, 95% of the time, open groups want Kill Proof (KP) or are actually run sales. Sometimes i've even noticed the KP groups failing to fill and then just fizzling out.

    I agree that in general the community doesn't match the challenge

    I agree that classes don't have specific, obvious roles and people don't really know how to play their class and aren't really challenged on a regular basis

    I also feel like there's not really a natural way for me to learn my rotations for the classes i'm interested in raiding with.

    And there should be incentives for people to clear raids.

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    That's not completely true. The reason why simple rotation were mostly used was because in the era without dps meters it was much harder to do proper estimation of more complicated rotations. Additionally, the "meta" was extremely niche, and something you could have easily ignored in the whole PvE content, both OW and instanced. In fact, because you could not easily see your damage output, 99% of the population was completely unaware of how big the dps difference between average players and 100% efficient ones was, and noticing dps differences between two similar rotations was often beyond the capability of even most hardcore players.

    Still, constant weapon switching for most classes, attunement dance for eles (and kit swapping madness for engis) were completely a thing then, if you wanted to be truly serious about efficiency.

    Also, the "power creep" people keep bringing about is mostly a myth. While it did indeed happen both times after the expac hit, people keep forgetting that each of those cases were preceded by massive wave of nerfs. For example, i keep hearing about how PoF introduced power creep. This is indeed true - but at the same time it is also true that the highest dps builds are builds from the height of HoT era, and nothing in PoF times could even come close to some of those.

    For the engineer, yes. But for other classes... it really was easier. All of the specializations keep adding more and more stuff to maintain, which creeps the power until everything gets nerfed and it becomes the new standard. The core classes had less skills available to them, so they used less skills to do their damage. I still remember many of them:

    Mesmer: You made sword phantasms and then used auto attacks, blurred frenzy, and at the start of the fight, mantra of pain.
    Elementalist: you camped fire in staff using lava font, unless you're using FGS in which case you corner rushed enemies to death.
    Necromancer: You shroud-flashed for buffs and auto attacked with dagger. Lich form off cooldown.
    Warrior: You camped Greatsword and used 100 blades whenever possible.
    Guardian: This one actually required switching. You'd use Scepter 2, then switch to greatsword and use the symbol and spin.
    Thief: Backstab into heartseeker
    Ranger: No clue what this one was
    Engineer: Beethoven's the 5th.

    This was when quickness was a rare unique buff, so outside of Time Warp mo;st classes didn't even get it. On some of these, maybe you could eke out a few extra DPS by swapping weapons around, but for most of them that wasn't really an option.

    That was well before elite specializations. Yes they made rotations more complex 5 years ago, but they've been simplifying them since then.
    Holosmith rotation was simplified, in the most recent patch, no more overheat, no more kits
    Chronomancer rotation was simplified, multiple times
    Weaver rotation was simplified, no more conjures, it looks complex but it's "use all your skills" kind of thing
    Daredevil and Deadeye never had rotations to begin with
    Condi Ranger was removed and Condi Soulbeast has a very simple rotation

    The only really complex rotations remaining in the game are Condi Renegade and Condi Engineer. I suspect they will be simplified soon because it's unreasonable to have only two such complex rotations in the game while the others are rather simple. And Condi Weaver but I don't see anyone playing that anymore, Condi Engineer is also rare.

    You have obviously never played boon support chrono. That's hard.

  • Naxos.2503Naxos.2503 Member ✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Yeah. I actually wanted to raid in this game and it's just really hard to break into. My guild canceled their training runs, 95% of the time, open groups want Kill Proof (KP) or are actually run sales. Sometimes i've even noticed the KP groups failing to fill and then just fizzling out.

    I agree that in general the community doesn't match the challenge

    I agree that classes don't have specific, obvious roles and people don't really know how to play their class and aren't really challenged on a regular basis

    I also feel like there's not really a natural way for me to learn my rotations for the classes i'm interested in raiding with.

    And there should be incentives for people to clear raids.

    I feel it Has incentives even, some of the loot in there is pretty sweet. But I can also confirm that LFG is filled to the brim with sale runs, and rarely anything else. I see a couple of Pugs, generally with up to 3-4 people in it, and those disappear after a while. You rarely see a group that lacks specific roles, and more rarely a training run. I also think that the kill proof and legendary insight requirements is kind of becoming less relevant since people can literally buy them by buying runs, thus nulifying all guarantee that the holder knows the mechanics he's supposedly proficient at based on that Indicator. Yes people have that much money by the way. The cost of a raid run is not prohibitively expensive.

    The idea of a ramped up difficulty is in my opinion good. Fractal T4 and Vale guardian actually have a pretty big difference, both in effect and in context. Enrage timer for one, actual hits as well. Some of the more recent fractals do incorporate a semi raid-like mechanic which I think is a pretty good idea. The issue is that taking a hit in a T4 fractal during a mechanic is trivial if you have the right agony res. Taking a hit in any raid mechanic is Not. Lenght is a very big factor in that : Fractal bosses dont last long, which in turn, means player downs handicap is lessened, even if you have less players. In a raid, any player down is actually a very big handicap. If you lose a DPS, you risk the enrage timer going off. If you lose a healer, you risk a general wipe, if you lose a buffer, you risk either/both.

    Hell, you know what they should do ? Turn the kitty golem into an actual raid boss with customizable mechanics, and let it fight players.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭
    edited August 16, 2019

    One last thing: the raids in this game are crazy hard compared to wow.

    1) It feels like there are way more roles to fill
    2) classes are expected to perform at a crazy high level: the rotations are very difficult. I have like 4-5 buttons in Wow plus some long cd abilities i have to time
    3) also the vertical progression in WoW allows players to close to overpower raids. They're balanced around 15-20 ilvls below what the raid drops (with consumables) and titanforged drops from bosses you can kill or gear from other sources can help you just juke things. The only thing that separates good from a bad player is skill in this game and the skill cap required feels very high based on the one raid i did do.

    I'm actually shocked GW2 doesn't have elitists from WoW oozing into the system, because of how hard it is.

  • DeadlySynz.3471DeadlySynz.3471 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Raids are the reason class balance got thrown out of whack. Gw2 never even really needed raids; all it needed was to update and tinker with the dungeons that were in place to make them more challenging (if players wanted more challenge). Either by adding new paths, new bosses, or even perhaps some sort of "raid" boss at the end of each dungeon, if players wanted a tougher scripted encounter. Hell, even add in a few more dungeons to correspond with the new maps they've released.

    It really made no sense to add in content that so few people were going to play over the long-haul; waste of resources. From the sounds of it OP, they're on the decline, which is exactly what many of us said was going to happen. Sure, people still play them; however, how many resources are they wasting on creating these raids when so few people touch them?

    It's the same with LS content. Outside of the first few days where people are powering through the achievements, the maps are largely dead until the meta-train comes rolling through.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:
    It really made no sense to add in content that so few people were going to play over the long-haul; waste of resources. From the sounds of it OP, they're on the decline, which is exactly what many of us said was going to happen. Sure, people still play them; however, how many resources are they wasting on creating these raids when so few people touch them?

    It's the same with LS content. Outside of the first few days where people are powering through the achievements, the maps are largely dead until the meta-train comes rolling through.

    So you are saying that LS content is also a waste of resources? What isn't a waste of resources?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    One last thing: the raids in this game are crazy hard compared to wow.

    Raids here are between Normal and Heroic raid difficulty in WoW. The main difference being, you can not massively outgear raid content to make it aritifically easier than intended. That's what is causing some people to perceive them as harder. They are not.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    1) It feels like there are way more roles to fill

    10 mann WoW raids use 1-2 tanks, 1-2 healers, rest dps (usually split between a bit less melee than ranged). That's pretty similar to this games setup.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    2) classes are expected to perform at a crazy high level: the rotations are very difficult. I have like 4-5 buttons in Wow plus some long cd abilities i have to time

    Try any thief build, condi shortbow soulbeast, Dragonhunter, banner power warrior. Those have quite simplistic rotations mostly consisting of 1-2 button and auto attacks.

    The required damage on most bosses is a fraction of what classes can peform at the top end. The most limiting factor is people being incapable of dealing with mechanics on a prolonged basis. When elite raid guilds kill bosses within 2-3 minutes while they are given 10 minute timers and when more casual groups wipe on mechanics and almost never on enrage timers, that is a clear sign that the actual requirement to rotation and class performance is rather low.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    3) also the vertical progression in WoW allows players to close to overpower raids. They're balanced around 15-20 ilvls below what the raid drops (with consumables) and titanforged drops from bosses you can kill or gear from other sources can help you just juke things. The only thing that separates good from a bad player is skill in this game and the skill cap required feels very high based on the one raid i did do.

    So basically WoW allows you to make the content easier than intended by outscaling it. That is not possible here yes.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    I'm actually shocked GW2 doesn't have elitists from WoW oozing into the system, because of how hard it is.

    Because in the end, raid content is not that hard. Mythic WoW raids are way above GW2 raid content AND require a lot of dedication along the way in gearing up. Raids here are peanuts compared to that.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Katary.7096 said:
    I beg your pardon, but no I can not and for the matter of fact neither can you. I am confident that there is a difference in required resources, but people on the outside will likely be unable to quantify it accurately. What I personally believe is this: Given the current state of raid development it is definitely possible for Arenanet to commit to two different difficulty settings, with a decent chance that it will slow down releases by a measure of months. Since a new wing roughly every nine months is insufficient for sustaining the raiding scene, the worst consequence would be that raiding in Guild Wars 2 dies slightly faster than it is doing at the moment.

    The idea of adding multiple difficulties is to reduce the time between raid releases. If they add multiple difficulties and at the same the time it takes longer to release raids, then they shouldn't add more difficulties, as there is no point. It's already ultra slow, need ways to make it faster.

    Perhaps you have an incredibly detailed vision regarding the implementation of multiple difficulties and that specific version may very well be impossible. All I am saying is that the developers would be capable of delivering a functioning difficulty split, because they have been doing it partially for some time.

    No I don't, others do and have posted especially in that mega thread about raid difficulties. And the encounters they proposed where fundamentally different to the current ones, reducing every single ability to non-existence. As for me, I made a suggestion on multiple difficulties a very long time ago, even before Path of Fire was released. It's rather simple and should take very little (if at all?) development resources: stop the easier encounter version at the early phases, disregard the rest of the encounter. No changes to mechanics at all, just do the opposite of CM, remove mechanics.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭
    edited August 16, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    One last thing: the raids in this game are crazy hard compared to wow.

    Raids here are between Normal and Heroic raid difficulty in WoW. The main difference being, you can not massively outgear raid content to make it aritifically easier than intended. That's what is causing some people to perceive them as harder. They are not.

    You're proving my point. In WoW there is a separate way for acquiring high end gear (Mythic+ dungeons) . I'm not sure you can claim "artificially easier": the way blizz intends it is that you can eventually actually clear content, they don't want you "stuck". You can only really claim "artificially easier than the beginning of the raid tier". If you look closely at the way gear is done, you gradually accumulate more throughout the season making clearing the content easier. It's funny a game intended to be easier than WoW is actually harder if you look at the whole season in WoW. Also i didn't fully represent the impact of gear: you still have to mind mechanics, you just have a little more cushion. You can still wipe with a well geared group.

    And you're wrong about difficulty. I've cleared most bosses on Heroic Antorus last expansion and it didn't feel nearly as hard as the wing i did. The number of mechanics felt way lower. I also dabbled in BoD and Uldir this expansion.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    1) It feels like there are way more roles to fill

    10 mann WoW raids use 1-2 tanks, 1-2 healers, rest dps (usually split between a bit less melee than ranged). That's pretty similar to this games setup.

    Let's see:

    GW2:
    Tank
    Healers
    Boon support (the number you need is dependent on class & gear composition you have available based on my research)
    Banner support
    DPS
    With only 10 raid members mind you

    WoW
    Tank
    Healers
    DPS
    With 25 people.

    How am i wrong? Or is all the kitten i'm reading about raiding wrong?

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    2) classes are expected to perform at a crazy high level: the rotations are very difficult. I have like 4-5 buttons in Wow plus some long cd abilities i have to time

    Try any thief build, condi shortbow soulbeast, Dragonhunter, banner power warrior. Those have quite simplistic rotations mostly consisting of 1-2 button and auto attacks.

    The required damage on most bosses is a fraction of what classes can peform at the top end. The most limiting factor is people being incapable of dealing with mechanics on a prolonged basis. When elite raid guilds kill bosses within 2-3 minutes while they are given 10 minute timers and when more casual groups wipe on mechanics and almost never on enrage timers, that is a clear sign that the actual requirement to rotation and class performance is rather low.

    Other people have said that they barely clear the boss with their experienced raid party seconds before the enrage timer hit in other discussions. So i'm taking what you're saying here about output with a grain of salt.

    So some classes are really hard, others are stupid easy? Sounds like a balance problem.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    3) also the vertical progression in WoW allows players to close to overpower raids. They're balanced around 15-20 ilvls below what the raid drops (with consumables) and titanforged drops from bosses you can kill or gear from other sources can help you just juke things. The only thing that separates good from a bad player is skill in this game and the skill cap required feels very high based on the one raid i did do.

    So basically WoW allows you to make the content easier than intended by outscaling it.
    Because in the end, raid content is not that hard. Mythic WoW raids are way above GW2 raid content AND require a lot of dedication along the way in gearing up. Raids here are peanuts compared to that.

    Have you raided in mythic perchance? When was the last time you did?

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    So some classes are really hard, others are stupid easy? Sounds like a balance problem.

    The developers are doing all they can to reduce complexity of rotations. There are only a few builds left that still have complex rotations, but most of them have easy rotations by now.

    Other people have said that they barely clear the boss with their experienced raid party seconds before the enrage timer hit in other discussions. So i'm taking what you're saying here about output with a grain of salt.

    If you take into account that players wearing no armor at all beat bosses without reaching an enrage timer, you can understand that those reaching it are doing something fundamentally wrong. Maybe their composition isn't good, not covering all important boons. Maybe their dps characters are getting downed all the time (or are dead) because they fail mechanics, or simply the dps characters don't follow the rotation.

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    So some classes are really hard, others are stupid easy? Sounds like a balance problem.

    The developers are doing all they can to reduce complexity of rotations. There are only a few builds left that still have complex rotations, but most of them have easy rotations by now.

    Other people have said that they barely clear the boss with their experienced raid party seconds before the enrage timer hit in other discussions. So i'm taking what you're saying here about output with a grain of salt.

    If you take into account that players wearing no armor at all beat bosses without reaching an enrage timer, you can understand that those reaching it are doing something fundamentally wrong. Maybe their composition isn't good, not covering all important boons. Maybe their dps characters are getting downed all the time (or are dead) because they fail mechanics, or simply the dps characters don't follow the rotation.

    Is this in every wing that naked players are pulling this off? Did these parties have realistic compositions with a fair amount of diversity in professions?

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    So some classes are really hard, others are stupid easy? Sounds like a balance problem.

    The developers are doing all they can to reduce complexity of rotations. There are only a few builds left that still have complex rotations, but most of them have easy rotations by now.

    Other people have said that they barely clear the boss with their experienced raid party seconds before the enrage timer hit in other discussions. So i'm taking what you're saying here about output with a grain of salt.

    If you take into account that players wearing no armor at all beat bosses without reaching an enrage timer, you can understand that those reaching it are doing something fundamentally wrong. Maybe their composition isn't good, not covering all important boons. Maybe their dps characters are getting downed all the time (or are dead) because they fail mechanics, or simply the dps characters don't follow the rotation.

    Is this in every wing that naked players are pulling this off? Did these parties have realistic compositions with a fair amount of diversity in professions?

    No of course it's not on all wings/bosses. There are some bosses were dps is really tight, like Twin Largos and Gorseval but for every other boss not even training runs reach enrage timers. If the group fails, it fails way before that point.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 16, 2019

    If you are interested in the dps required, take a look here:
    https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats

    The difference between 30% and 99% is gigantic. On average from all raid bosses, the best groups do 218,253 dps and finish the fight in 1:54. The 30% groups do 74,507 dps and finish the fight in 6:24. This means the best groups do triple damage than the lowest groups.

    6:24 is enough to kill most Raid bosses without hitting the enrage timer.
    Vale Guardian: 8 mins
    Gorseval: 7 mins
    Sabetha: 9 mins
    Slothasor: 7 mins
    Matthias: 10 mins
    Keep Construct: 10 mins
    Xera: 11 mins
    Mursaat Overseer: 6 mins
    Samarog: 11 mins
    Deimos: 12 mins
    Soulless Horror: 8 mins
    Dhuum: 10 mins

    This means, if your team, or yourself, can't reach 30% on gw2raidar, you need some more training. Once the team reaches 30% they should beat all bosses without reaching enrage timers anymore.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 16, 2019

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    One last thing: the raids in this game are crazy hard compared to wow.

    Raids here are between Normal and Heroic raid difficulty in WoW. The main difference being, you can not massively outgear raid content to make it aritifically easier than intended. That's what is causing some people to perceive them as harder. They are not.

    You're proving my point. In WoW there is a separate way for acquiring high end gear (Mythic+ dungeons) . I'm not sure you can claim "artificially easier": the way blizz intends it is that you can eventually actually clear content, they don't want you "stuck". You can only really claim "artificially easier than the beginning of the raid tier". If you look closely at the way gear is done, you gradually accumulate more throughout the season making clearing the content easier. It's funny a game intended to be easier than WoW is actually harder if you look at the whole season in WoW. Also i didn't fully represent the impact of gear: you still have to mind mechanics, you just have a little more cushion. You can still wipe with a well geared group.

    There is multiple ways to get end game gear in this game, most of them do not involve raiding. It is artificially easier. That is not to be disputed given how progression in WoW works and how people magically start clearing content which was to hard for them when it was initially released. No, players did not magically get better when they suddenly clear Mythic+7 dungeons midway into an expansion while struggling with Mythic+1 at the beginning. It's outscaling of difficulty, nothing more.

    Also top end players also do not magically become better when they clear +10s at the start of an expansion and then move to +20 mythic dungeons towards the end. Similar concept at the top end: gear scaling shifts the difficulty down.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    And you're wrong about difficulty. I've cleared most bosses on Heroic Antorus last expansion and it didn't feel nearly as hard as the wing i did. The number of mechanics felt way lower. I also dabbled in BoD and Uldir this expansion.

    and I'm sure you were not 1 item level above the designed difficulty. I've done high level mythic dungeon and raid (mostly heroic, some mythic) content in WoW on level, being a few Mythic+ dungeons behind top end players. I know how players clear content which was originally to difficult: outscale it by 30 ilevel, then clear it. That is no argument that you cleared the content as it was designed.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    1) It feels like there are way more roles to fill

    10 mann WoW raids use 1-2 tanks, 1-2 healers, rest dps (usually split between a bit less melee than ranged). That's pretty similar to this games setup.

    Let's see:

    GW2:
    Tank
    Healers
    Boon support (the number you need is dependent on class & gear composition you have available based on my research)
    Banner support
    DPS
    With only 10 raid members mind you

    Let's see:

    • 4 supports (3 for high end raid guilds)
    • 6 dps

    You are not making a strong argument if you can't even apply the basic group setup to your argument. There is no pure tank in GW2, there is no pure healer in GW2. Just like healers and buffers are not seperate entities in WoW. Or how damage dealers do more than just damage but also often crowd control.

    I was comparing 10 man group setups in GW2 to 10 mann group setups in WoW. More than 10 mann in WoW simply scale up the amount of similar roles required.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    2) classes are expected to perform at a crazy high level: the rotations are very difficult. I have like 4-5 buttons in Wow plus some long cd abilities i have to time

    Try any thief build, condi shortbow soulbeast, Dragonhunter, banner power warrior. Those have quite simplistic rotations mostly consisting of 1-2 button and auto attacks.

    The required damage on most bosses is a fraction of what classes can peform at the top end. The most limiting factor is people being incapable of dealing with mechanics on a prolonged basis. When elite raid guilds kill bosses within 2-3 minutes while they are given 10 minute timers and when more casual groups wipe on mechanics and almost never on enrage timers, that is a clear sign that the actual requirement to rotation and class performance is rather low.

    Other people have said that they barely clear the boss with their experienced raid party seconds before the enrage timer hit in other discussions. So i'm taking what you're saying here about output with a grain of salt.

    That is something almost NEVER stated, and something I have almost never experienced in my over 1,700 LI/LD of raiding. You are making this up, sorry. The main reason for wipes in over 90% of all cases is wipes to mechanics way before a timer expires.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    So some classes are really hard, others are stupid easy? Sounds like a balance problem.

    Sure, there is a difference in how difficult classes and their rotations are. Doesn't mean there is no easy classes to raid on.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    3) also the vertical progression in WoW allows players to close to overpower raids. They're balanced around 15-20 ilvls below what the raid drops (with consumables) and titanforged drops from bosses you can kill or gear from other sources can help you just juke things. The only thing that separates good from a bad player is skill in this game and the skill cap required feels very high based on the one raid i did do.

    So basically WoW allows you to make the content easier than intended by outscaling it.
    Because in the end, raid content is not that hard. Mythic WoW raids are way above GW2 raid content AND require a lot of dedication along the way in gearing up. Raids here are peanuts compared to that.

    Have you raided in mythic perchance? When was the last time you did?

    During Warlords of Draenor. Then Mythic Dungeons up to +12 (when top players were doing +15s) in Legion and heroic raids.

    The general consensus among top end raiders is as I have stated: raid content is between Normal and Heroic WoW raid difficulty (normal being the easiest bosses on normal mode like Cairn or MO, Heroic being some of the CMs and difficult normal bosses like Dhuum normal) with maybe Dhuum CM being around easy mythic as the hardest encounter.

    EDIT: obviously that consensus does not take into account people who outgear content and clear it weeks or months later. This is based on gear level being aproximately around content difficulty for which it was designed for.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't think LW is for 90% of the player population at all.
    Even if a large part of the community is playing LW, I wonder how many are just doing so because that's all there is while waiting for proper and challenging content.

    Metrics can be quite misleading that way.
    If Anet develops a lot of LW and very little Raids, of course over time there is going to be a lot of engagement with LW and low engagement with Raids (besides the naturally higher engagement with easy content).
    That shouldn't justify even more development of LW and even less development of Raids though.

    Just the sense that there is a healthy endgame to look forward to, even if a majority will never reach it or participate in it, is pretty important for the health of an MMO or online game in general.
    If I newly get into a game and hear that the endgame is severely underdeveloped and dying out due to lack of content, even if I'm enjoying the early game experience and just running around in the world for now, chances are I'm not going to be around for that long and not feel motivated to put in the effort to find people and to get into that endgame content in the first place, even if what's there is really good, if it feels like that it doesn't have a future and isn't going anywhere.
    It's a self-perpetuating death of the gamemode at that point.

    Super easy solo non repeatable content just isn't sustainable for an online game. As much as I enjoy playing through a story, it just takes way too much time to develop for what players get out of it to be the main focus.
    There is a reason single player games generally get picked up, played through and then dropped. That doesn't work for an MMO long term.
    Imagining if even just half the resources of LW had been put into in guild systems, revitalizing dungeons and development of Fractals, Raids and WvW over the last few years I think it's pretty much impossible the game wouldn't be in an objectively much better state at this point.

    Trading potentially hundreds of hours of repeatable content that gets players to group up and keep them engaged, for 2-3 hours of one time content that takes just as much resources, if not more, in creating all the maps, assets, writing, voice acting and so on, just isn't a good deal.
    It has it's place and can be really fun to play through, but as I said, it can't be all there is IF you want to sustain a healthy community long term and not just cash out.

    There is a huge difference between 90% (which is think is way too high of an estimation) of players playing certain content, and those players actually wanting to play/enjoying that content.
    One of the main reasons endgame content is niche is because it has been terribly neglected, both in incentives and introduction as well as content development.
    The difficulty isn't the main problem per se.
    What are Easy modes that take out all the mechanics, take out the need to group up, the need to fill certain roles like boon supports or are unfailable exactly going to teach and how is that going to transition into actual Raids?

    Easy mode Raids could have a place and do some good, but they would need to be done right and with proper effort and resources, which leads to the same problem endgame content has in general, the lack of that.
    The development of proper introductory easy mode Raids at this point would mean no proper Raids being released for 1 year+ (if they are even still being developed in the first place).
    That won't do any good for that community either as more Raiders would leave by the time than easy modes would probably bring into the scene.

    If Anet want's to see the endgame community and content grow, they need to invest more into it. Much more.
    If they don't, then that's that and press F indeed.

    This comes back to what I said earlier, unless ArenaNet knows and states what they want for the game and where it is going, we can argue about what it needs or how to solve the issues for years without changing anything.
    Right now the focus of GW2 seems to be to run a round alone completely unengaged with the game and it's systems to press F on things to check a box in endless collections. I'm sure there is a demographic for that, I just don't think it's higher than things like Raids, Fractals, WvW etc., especially once all those things fall away as backdrop motivation.
    Nor do I think there will be anything that could even be called a community left once those players are all that's left.

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:
    I don't think LW is for 90% of the player population at all.

    Well let's take a look at some statistics to find out. using gw2efficiency data

    This is from a month ago:
    91.5% started Heart of Thorns, 66.2% killed Mordremoth
    67.2% started S3E1, 59.7% finished it
    62.4% started S3E2, 57.2% finished it
    63.3% started S3E3, 55.7% finished it
    59.6% started S3E4, 50.8% finished it
    56% started S3E5, 49.9% finished it
    52.7% started S3E6, 46.8% finished it
    79.9% started Path of Fire, 62% killed Balthazar
    57% started S4E1, 47.1% finished it
    47.9% started S4E2, 42.3% finished it
    48.7% started S4E3, 39.9% finished it
    40.6% started S4E4, 35.8% finished it
    36.3% started S4E5, 31.7% finished it
    32.8% started S4E6, 29.6% finished it

    It's perfectly clear that 90% of the players is NOT playing the LS, only Heart of Thorns was started by that mythical "90%", but that's to be expected, gw2eff launched at the release of Heart of Thorns so most accounts had access to the expansion. The rest of the episodes are much lower, even going under 30% near the end of Season 4. So I wonder where is the proof of the claim that "LS is for the 90%"

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    I don't think LW is for 90% of the player population at all.

    Well let's take a look at some statistics to find out. using gw2efficiency data

    This is from a month ago:
    91.5% started Heart of Thorns, 66.2% killed Mordremoth
    67.2% started S3E1, 59.7% finished it
    62.4% started S3E2, 57.2% finished it
    63.3% started S3E3, 55.7% finished it
    59.6% started S3E4, 50.8% finished it
    56% started S3E5, 49.9% finished it
    52.7% started S3E6, 46.8% finished it
    79.9% started Path of Fire, 62% killed Balthazar
    57% started S4E1, 47.1% finished it
    47.9% started S4E2, 42.3% finished it
    48.7% started S4E3, 39.9% finished it
    40.6% started S4E4, 35.8% finished it
    36.3% started S4E5, 31.7% finished it
    32.8% started S4E6, 29.6% finished it

    It's perfectly clear that 90% of the players is NOT playing the LS, only Heart of Thorns was started by that mythical "90%", but that's to be expected, gw2eff launched at the release of Heart of Thorns so most accounts had access to the expansion. The rest of the episodes are much lower, even going under 30% near the end of Season 4. So I wonder where is the proof of the claim that "LS is for the 90%"

    Considering that includes a whole lot of people who don't care much for LW at all and only complete it while waiting for things they'd much rather have like Fractal (CM's), Raids and WvW updates etc., 30% is actually shockingly low.

    Even Raids as "super niche content" managed to generate that much participation before they too declined after W4 due to neglect and focus shift on mainly LW.
    If they had received the same amount of content, they may even be about even at this point.

    That does make me wonder though, what if anything are people actually playing still?

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:
    Considering that includes a whole lot of people who don't care much for LW at all and only complete it while waiting for things they'd much rather have like Fractal (CM's), Raids and WvW updates etc., 30% is actually shockingly low.

    Yes. When I got that data I used story completion, I should''ve used meta achievement completion too because completing the meta means you played everything (or most) the episode had to offer. One can assume that creating the map, achievements, races and collections is more expensive than the story alone, so a comparison between meta achievement completions and raid completions would be nice. I might do one

    Raid stats from a month ago (for reference):
    Wing 1: 30.2% killed Vale Guardian, 19.8% killed Sabetha
    Wing 2: 18.5% killed Slothasor, 16.2% killed Matthias
    Wing 3: 27% finished escort, 13.7% killed Xera
    Wing 4: 23.5% killed Cairn, 14.4% killed Deimos
    Wing 5: 9.8% killed the Soulless Horror, 6.8% killed Dhuum
    Wing 6: 8.5% killed the Conjured Amalgamte, 5% killed Quadim

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    The only thing that separates good from a bad player is skill in this game and the skill cap required feels very high based on the one raid i did do.

    So you only did a single raid and can adequately estimate its true difficulty based on just that?

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 16, 2019

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    The only thing that separates good from a bad player is skill in this game and the skill cap required feels very high based on the one raid i did do.

    So you only did a single raid and can adequately estimate its true difficulty based on just that?

    Actually he is right. The difference between a high skilled and a low skilled player is quite gigantic. Using gw2raidar data:

    On average from all raid bosses, the best groups do 218,253 dps and finish the fight in 1:54. The 30% groups do 74,507 dps and finish the fight in 6:24. This means the best groups do triple damage than the lowest groups.

    Which is exactly why good players can low-man raids, do them in green gear, or even naked, while less skilled groups struggle in full ascended with full raid teams.

    Edit: that's not to say the higher end is required, as those 30% teams finish Raid bosses without even touching the enrage timer.

©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.