Why DuoQ Should be Removed for Season 18 and Never Come Back - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Why DuoQ Should be Removed for Season 18 and Never Come Back

2

Comments

  • Faux Play.6104Faux Play.6104 Member ✭✭✭

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    In a duo queue, the Matchmaker the mmr the highest rated player. It has been like this since season 5. I know many top players, myself included that would just stop if they removed duo, due to how unbearably low the skill in most games are.

    Queued on alt yesterday, 1670 something in eu. I had a mirage camping every beast in Forest, even dying to it once. Me winning 1v2 against Firebrand scourge. Blowing up midfights in 2-5 seconds.

    Duo makes the game bearable for me.

    This is from the wiki for the match maker. Stop spreading false information:
    Scoring/Rank/@distance
    Score added or removed based on the distance between the potential roster's average rank and the average rank of all selected rosters, including both teams.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Matchmaking_Algorithm

  • @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    I'd like to see this:

    • Removed Ranked Conquest.
    • Keep Unranked Conquest.
    • Add Unranked 2v2 que.
    • All Rating & Badge Icon play and rewards per season, are shifted into a new system concerning ATs. This way we can get rotating 5v5 ATs and 2v2 ATs.

    Pros:

    • We get a new solid game mode out of this.
    • We get to have 5 man que back while playing seriously for rating.
    • With serious team play back in the picture, we get a real reason to form guilds around the purpose of spvp again.
    • Having reason to form spvp guilds again, encourages team play & practice, which in general encourages game mode interest & activity.

    Cons:

    • Nothing, outside of ignorant pleb complaints. And even the ones who complain, would figure out by the end of the week, why this system was better.

    Idunno. It's hard for me personally to get on board with that because ATs and are too exclusive and too infrequent. If that was changed, then maybe I could see it. Even if; rotating TeamQs of varying sizes could accomplish the same thing while still allowing binge-play, me thinks.

    What matters most to me is knocking all those alts off the LB, queuing up for a challenge, and not having to deal with third-party hurdles. Basically, I want to get better and be rewarded for getting better, have a fun and fair challenge, and not be stopped by some broken feature. Merged queues have ruined that for me, and as a result; i'm most concerned with those right now.

    Remove Ranked DuoQ pls&ty

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2019

    @Multicolorhipster.9751

    Check out this suggestion from Faux:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Faux Play.6104 said:

    @Loki.1763 said:
    No F2P in Ranked
    No rewards for losing

    I don't see an issue with F2P. I think it is good to bring in new players.

    The only downside with the current implementation is people can make multiple accounts, however the abusers can still do the same thing with full accounts. Enough people have quit the game that it isn't hard to get a full account. I'd rather make people use an authenticated account to a phone number to play ranked. They can use that number for as many guild wars 2 accounts as they want, but they all share that number's rating gain loss.

    ^ This

    Something like that needs to be done at this point. Though I'd also add in that, only one account that is tied to the same phone, can be allowed a position on the leaderboard. The other accounts can still play and get rating/badge icon, but they never show on the leaderboard and are not eligible for end season rewards as such. This would help a lot vs. account sharing and leaderboard position blocking.

    Like really, Anet needs to work on this. We need some system of verification that makes sure a single player gets to have a single account in the leaderboards. Or at the very least, it would make it such a pain the kitten to have so many alts, that it wouldn't be worth most people's time to try and rig them up.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2019

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    In a duo queue, the Matchmaker the mmr the highest rated player.

    I have never seen Arenanet ever confirm this. The only thing I've seen BenP say is that the matchmaker tries average the team's collective rating.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    In a duo queue, the Matchmaker the mmr the highest rated player.

    I have never seen Arenanet ever confirm this. The only thing I've seen BenP say is that the matchmaker tries average the team's collective rating.

    They did actually try that during one of the earlier seasons because everyone was complaining about smurfing lol. The end result was bad though. Treating duo rating as only the higher rated player ended up causing a lot more problems than it helped. They did indeed put it back to duos being treated as the average of the two players. I had JUST gone through this entire forum an posted quotes from Ben & Cal, in a different thread, that shows that the system is using the average of the two players and not just the high rated rating.

    Why people are confused on this, I have no idea. It's kind of obvious how the algorithm is working when you just pay attention to rating gains & losses between yourself and your duo, if one of you is significantly higher or lower rated than the other.

  • Exedore.6320Exedore.6320 Member ✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Why people are confused on this, I have no idea. It's kind of obvious how the algorithm is working when you just pay attention to rating gains & losses between yourself and your duo, if one of you is significantly higher or lower rated than the other.

    That would require thinking instead of parroting the same excuse for losing over and over regardless of its veracity.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    In a duo queue, the Matchmaker the mmr the highest rated player. It has been like this since season 5. I know many top players, myself included that would just stop if they removed duo, due to how unbearably low the skill in most games are.

    Actually this is just a common myth. There's absolutely nothing to suggest that it only uses the rating of the higher rated player, but there is evidence to suggest an average of the two ratings is used.

    Like, at Plat2 if I DuoQ with a gold 1, I get very little rating from wins with that gold and get smashed with huge rating deductions for losses. Since rating is tied to the other players in your match, it shouldn't be unreasonable to assume they're all a lower average rating. Unless you mean to suggest that single gold 1 player is the cause, but if that's the case; that means they're just being dragged along to essentially punish my team.

    That also begs the question: If there's the potential to gain less/lose more, and the higher rated player's ranking is always used, why would the top player for this season be handicapping themself? https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/83854/how-does-top-10-player-appear-in-gold-1-match#latest

    Most games already look like +5-10 -15-20. Making it even harder to climb is just ridiculous.

    If we're going by rating gain/loss alone, SoloQ actually allows for more because the rating of the other players determines that, and there's objectively more rating disparity with DuoQ than without it.

    Queued on alt yesterday, 1670 something in eu. I had a mirage camping every beast in Forest, even dying to it once. Me winning 1v2 against Firebrand scourge. Blowing up midfights in 2-5 seconds.

    Duo makes the game bearable for me.

    Oh yeah, winning 1v2s, blowing up midfights. That sounds tragic. On further consideration, I think I see your point. It's a hard-knock SoloQ life.

    A couple months ago, I had dug through this entire subforum, quoting conversations between Ben & Cal, in response to the question of: "Does duo que use higher rated player's rating? or does it use the average rating of both players?"

    Long story short, I'm not going to dig up those quotes again, but I can say that the duo que system does use the average rating between the two players qued. So if you have a 1600 with a 1400, it ques that duo has a 1500 duo.

    People who believe it uses the higher player's rating as the duo rating, are remembering a patch from a very very very long time ago.

    i remember that thread too

  • OutOfOrder.3719OutOfOrder.3719 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2019

    All ANET would need to do is prevent plat 3 players or 1650 rating or higher from Duo queuing with anyone .

    It used to be that plat 1 or higher could not Duo que together, and it would be a healthy halfway point to make sure the top 25 spots go to players that can actually carry.

    It would be awesome to see those top 25 go up against 2 plat 1 or 2 teams for those final spots on the top of the ladder. Then less experience would be lost every game and more experience could be gained.

    Making it to plat 1 or plat 2 as a Duo que should be high enough, but if you want to be legendary, then you will have to carry those final games.

  • dominik.9721dominik.9721 Member ✭✭✭

    Imagine vin aeone in soloq 😂😂😂😂😂

  • Sovari.7246Sovari.7246 Member ✭✭

    The last week/weekend of the season was pretty ugly with the duo queues that's when they come out on full force and full cheese is in effect I would like to see them disable duo queuing at a certain level during the last 2 weeks because it can give the casuals a fighting chance to make it far in pvp and not be left with a taste of lameness towards the end of a season

  • witcher.3197witcher.3197 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You do realize they've tried this before, right?

    When Anet deleted team que, the community died.

    Then Anet removed duo, and PvP altogether almost died. One season later they were quick to bring it back.

    Blaming duos is just a scapegoat bad players use. You wouldn't be any higher on the ladder if it was solo only, all that'd change is you'd complain about something else. Get good and stop crying.

  • Multicolorhipster.9751Multicolorhipster.9751 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2019

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @Multicolorhipster.9751

    Check out this suggestion from Faux:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Faux Play.6104 said:

    @Loki.1763 said:
    No F2P in Ranked
    No rewards for losing

    I don't see an issue with F2P. I think it is good to bring in new players.

    The only downside with the current implementation is people can make multiple accounts, however the abusers can still do the same thing with full accounts. Enough people have quit the game that it isn't hard to get a full account. I'd rather make people use an authenticated account to a phone number to play ranked. They can use that number for as many guild wars 2 accounts as they want, but they all share that number's rating gain loss.

    ^ This

    Something like that needs to be done at this point. Though I'd also add in that, only one account that is tied to the same phone, can be allowed a position on the leaderboard. The other accounts can still play and get rating/badge icon, but they never show on the leaderboard and are not eligible for end season rewards as such. This would help a lot vs. account sharing and leaderboard position blocking.

    Like really, Anet needs to work on this. We need some system of verification that makes sure a single player gets to have a single account in the leaderboards. Or at the very least, it would make it such a pain the kitten to have so many alts, that it wouldn't be worth most people's time to try and rig them up.

    I remember that one. It would definitely be appreciated if they threw us a bone like that. Having over 10 alts or boosted accounts from the same person in the top 25 is just ugly.

    @witcher.3197 said:
    You do realize they've tried this before, right?

    When Anet deleted team que, the community died.

    Then Anet removed duo, and PvP altogether almost died. One season later they were quick to bring it back.

    Yes, i'm aware. DuoQ has been tried twice and failed both times for the same reasons. The decline is population has been steady and hasn't changed at all with DuoQ being reintroduced.

    Removing TeamQ, imo; was a mistake nobody asked for, and; arguably started the decline. If the choice is between a merged DuoQ and competitive TeamQ, i'm going to wager TeamQ would win every time. You have more fair matchmaking, next to zero manipulation/wintrading, and more friends to play with than if you were DuoQing.

    Blaming duos is just a scapegoat bad players use. You wouldn't be any higher on the ladder if it was solo only, all that'd change is you'd complain about something else. Get good and stop crying.

    Blaming DuoQs for losses is one thing, blaming DuoQs for poor match quality is another. A 500-50 win where a top DuoQ carries a team of low golds and silvers is just as bad as a loss from the same thing. Players of vastly different skill levels shouldn't be in the same match, and if they are; they should be spread out evenly among teams.

    To expect anyone to take anything away from being carried or rolled by two players that are several hundred rating above them(At least on their main accounts xd) is just totally unreasonable. That's not how getting good works.

    EDIT: Wait hol' up, "ONE" season? 13-9 = 4. DuoQ took 4 seasons to come back.

    Remove Ranked DuoQ pls&ty

  • yanniell.1236yanniell.1236 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2019

    Separated teamQ and SoloQ is the way to go. Anything else is just people asking for easy wins.

    There's no place for a merged queue in an individual leaderboard. That is just stupid.

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I miss Team Q. Now I only Solo. Everyone died.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If the population can't support ranked teams, how will it support swiss?

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • Falan.1839Falan.1839 Member ✭✭✭

    I think overall Solo Q is fairer, while Duo gives too many advantages to a coordinated high lvl duo that can not really be justified. I finished top 25 on the LB several times myself, including the last two seasons, and can only say that difference between having a competent duo partner to coordinate with and going solo is immense, and the former variant is almost a requirement for hitting legendary. the However it is also true what has been mentioned before: At this point the match quality is so low and the skill disparaties between the 10 players of one match are so great that Solo Q wouldn't really change the general feeling much. No kind of Q system could ever fix this, because the population is simply too small. Even a full team Q would barely ever create competitive matches on a high level these days.

    Falásya / Caissech

    "When you say it's gonna happen "now"
    When exactly do you mean?
    See I've already waited too long
    And all my hope is gone"
    The Smiths about Balance and PvP changes

  • Ouk.5914Ouk.5914 Member ✭✭

    imagine.....this post from a gold 2 player is still going! Reach Plat 3 and then come back to this topic as you'll see a completely different point of view by then.

  • @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    @NotoriousNaru.1705 said:
    Sure I don't mind team queue but look at all the other comments of vet players talking about how it was back when team q/solo q were a thing. Team q was great and solo qs sucked. Even those playing solo ended up going to the team q. Know why? Because of exactly what I tried to tell you and you failed to understand: match quality. The way I see it is if they can create that system again go for it BUT if they can't the ONLY option absolutely CANNOT be solo only because those who do care about winning and competing will leave and that is bad for everyone and I dont mean just legend players i mean majority of plat players and some of gold too.

    I'm giving you valid reasons as to why solo is objectively worse. All you're giving me is how the plat 2-3+ players are bad and cheat but what you fail to realize is thats going to happen no matter what, infact more griefing will happen in solo. You mentioned legend duos dodging each other for easier games but based on your logic wouldn't that be worse when legend/plat mix teams dodge each other and now they are farming those same low rated players but now its 100% of the time rather than carrying some of them occasionally? I just don't see your point. You want both qs back but if you do some research you will come to realize everyone will flock to team q, even solo players.

    Then SoloQ dies, I guess? If TeamQ is in your opinion, the better way to queue; people migrating over from Solos would be nothing but a good thing. Just having the option to go back and forth is important, because sometimes people don't want to LFG, or they don't have the team they normally play with available, so they SoloQ. Really, there's reason to play both gamemodes, and even if all this speculation proves to be right, SoloQ falling out of favor in place of TeamQ in a team-based game isn't exactly a bad thing. No matter which option people choose to favor, they at least have the option to be matched with similarly coordinated players. Merged queues take away that choice.

    Anyway, I played between Season 9 and now, and like I said in the OP the means for wintrading have changed. In my opinion, it's much worse now than it was with SoloQ. With SoloQ the matchmaking is less tractable. It's harder to get two people on the same team, who don't want to be on the same team, and that's just a fact; basic math.

    You look at the LBs now and you have multiple alts with upwards of 80% winrates. It wasn't like that in SoloQ, not even close. So you can tell me all you want really, that SoloQ will be worse. I'm more inclined to go by the results I physically witness, than than the word of the "scissors to the paper" as someone put it earlier.

    You literally don't even know what you want. Your OP is fueled by emotions and wanting to witchhunt the big bad plat/legend players for winning more but then you say things like "let solo q die" but if team q were a thing you'd be in here complaining about how good players play with good players and 500-0 you everytime. Maybe make a better argument for team qs instead of wanting to go back to something that doesn't work with the logic of "waa good players win their winrates high fix it anet!" but really those at the top will be at the top no matter what system you put them in.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2019

    @stick.7258 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    In a duo queue, the Matchmaker the mmr the highest rated player. It has been like this since season 5. I know many top players, myself included that would just stop if they removed duo, due to how unbearably low the skill in most games are.

    Queued on alt yesterday, 1670 something in eu. I had a mirage camping every beast in Forest, even dying to it once. Me winning 1v2 against Firebrand scourge. Blowing up midfights in 2-5 seconds.

    Duo makes the game bearable for me.

    This is probably what most higher tier duo's think, at least i heard this expressed my multiple players.
    I do wonder if it is the case, cuz of low-pop, that duo quers have higher change of winning. But if this is the case i wonder if it would be fair to give them a small penalty, like split rank points gained from victory between both.

    I am not sure that duo que takes the rating of the highest player. Unless Anet explicitly stated that, I would not assume it is. The only thing I remember Anet saying is that duo queuing does not have a higher winning chance, but that also discounts match manipulation and does not mention the standard of deviation of the results (which if I guess it would be staggering).

    I know that most games take the rating of the highest player. That would be a good compromise. As far as I know, it is not the case.

    @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 is it the case?

  • Solos only ranked queue AND a duos + solos ranked queue would solve this. Forcing solos who only want to compete against other solos to be matched with duos IS ridiculous. A solos only queue and duos only queue with some incentive for others to queue with duos. Forcing solos who do not want to compete with duos is stupid.

  • Ziggityzog.7389Ziggityzog.7389 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Incoming tears from "top" (lol hahahahaha) players who enjoy their wintrade wars.

  • Dude who even in the world is this OP. This entire post is an priori argument, and thus a logical fallacy with poor evidence.

    If ranked duo Q goes away—I am one of those top tier players that will 100% quit the game.

    If they do not start implementing strategies that encourage playing conquest how it was meant to be played within the next few months—I’m going to quit the game.

    I’m talking about like 5 man Q’s seperate from solo ranked with a team leaderboard, and rewards that are scaled up from MaT rewards.

    Solo Q is cancer. It’s absolute cancer. It makes playing ranked pointless because you’re basically rolling dice. No human being wants to take risks that are predicated on chance. That’s what ranked solo Q is.

  • @NotoriousNaru.1705 said:
    You literally don't even know what you want. Your OP is fueled by emotions and wanting to witchhunt the big bad plat/legend players for winning more but then you say things like "let solo q die" but if team q were a thing you'd be in here complaining about how good players play with good players and 500-0 you everytime. Maybe make a better argument for team qs instead of wanting to go back to something that doesn't work with the logic of "waa good players win their winrates high fix it anet!" but really those at the top will be at the top no matter what system you put them in.

    I think "Why DuoQ should be removed for Season 18 and never come back" is pretty to the point. I want DuoQ and merged queues gone. I made comparisons to SoloQ and TeamQ because i've played both in the context of ranked, and i've come to believe they're both substantially more fair and competitive, although; I could really care less which option we get, so long as we have the choice to play fairly and competitively just like I said.

    You can call that getting emotional, I mean; I could say the same to you. I can feel you shaking in your boots, through this text.

    The point isn't to start a witch-hunt. There's just absurd winrates across multiple alt accounts on the LB, plus the vast amount of unfair matches for low-mid level players is the motive for wanting more equal matchmaking, and again; that doesn't even have to be done through making ranked SoloQ conquest only.

    Remove Ranked DuoQ pls&ty

  • @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    @NotoriousNaru.1705 said:
    You literally don't even know what you want. Your OP is fueled by emotions and wanting to witchhunt the big bad plat/legend players for winning more but then you say things like "let solo q die" but if team q were a thing you'd be in here complaining about how good players play with good players and 500-0 you everytime. Maybe make a better argument for team qs instead of wanting to go back to something that doesn't work with the logic of "waa good players win their winrates high fix it anet!" but really those at the top will be at the top no matter what system you put them in.

    I think "Why DuoQ should be removed for Season 18 and never come back" is pretty to the point. I want DuoQ and merged queues gone. I made comparisons to SoloQ and TeamQ because i've played both in the context of ranked, and i've come to believe they're both substantially more fair and competitive, although; I could really care less which option we get, so long as we have the choice to play fairly and competitively just like I said.

    You can call that getting emotional, I mean; I could say the same to you. I can feel you shaking in your boots, through this text.

    The point isn't to start a witch-hunt. There's just absurd winrates across multiple alt accounts on the LB, plus the vast amount of unfair matches for low-mid level players is the motive for wanting more equal matchmaking, and again; that doesn't even have to be done through making ranked SoloQ conquest only.

    I don't think you're very bright. I have tried to show a pleb the light but have failed. Good day!

  • OP isn't (nor is anyone?) saying to eliminate duos. Just not to mix them with solos who don't want the imbalances merged queue creates. Not everyone has the luxury of a reliable duo (in fact, I suspect the vast majority don't), so soloq, along with the clown fiesta it can be, is their only option. Throwing duos into that mix generally makes things worse for all but the duo. Population and queue times aside, what's the problem with separate queues and leaderboards?

  • Eddbopkins.2630Eddbopkins.2630 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2019

    Duo should be removed at rank 1650 and above. The top 50 dont need the crutch of coms and a friend to maintain there title. If they do they obviously dont deserve that spot.
    This is a team based game 5v5. My honest option is, there should be a 5 man que since this is a team based game mode.

  • Multicolorhipster.9751Multicolorhipster.9751 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2019

    @Ouk.5914 said:
    imagine.....this post from a gold 2 player is still going! Reach Plat 3 and then come back to this topic as you'll see a completely different point of view by then.

    @VALARMORGHULIS.9173 said:
    Dude who even in the world is this OP. This entire post is an priori argument, and thus a logical fallacy with poor evidence.

    I average Plat2 like I said in the OP. I've pretty much peaked there, and to be fair; I have reached Plat3 several times, but never actually finished there. That's actually where my point of view comes from. Where once, it was exciting to be going head-to-head with a top player; it's become boring now.

    When they queue together on alt accounts, the wins mean nothing, and nearly every other player in the match is too low level to constitute a challenge. It feels dirty, and it doesn't feel competitive at all.

    See, I don't tie my ego to my rank; so I don't go around flaunting it and pretending like that makes me more entitled to be listened to. I just want a competitive experience, and DuoQ removes that fun.

    I could actually be gold 2, and my opinion would be no less valid. I think a gold 2 player's opinion would probably carry more weight than mine even, because they'd be speaking from the point of view of an actual victim.

    I gotchu covered with the evidence, but; mind you, I didn't play Season 17, because like I say; the competitive aspect, the fun part of the game has been ruined for me thanks to DuoQ.
    (If any of the links don't work, copy and paste into the URL and that should fix.)

    Rank Season 16: https://imgur.com/xmtMGI5

    Title to go with: https://imgur.com/mti9loU

    Questionable winrates this season: https://imgur.com/eomgmUX

    And here's some actual testimonies from victims this season, some with proof and developer responses:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/83854/how-does-top-10-player-appear-in-gold-1-match
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/80419/what-is-up-with-the-matchmaker
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/82636/p1-with-no-duo-vs-l1-duo

    If ranked duo Q goes away—I am one of those top tier players that will 100% quit the game.

    If they do not start implementing strategies that encourage playing conquest how it was meant to be played within the next few months—I’m going to quit the game.

    I’m talking about like 5 man Q’s seperate from solo ranked with a team leaderboard, and rewards that are scaled up from MaT rewards.

    Solo Q is cancer. It’s absolute cancer. It makes playing ranked pointless because you’re basically rolling dice. No human being wants to take risks that are predicated on chance. That’s what ranked solo Q is.

    I'll reiterate that the argument is only to remove DuoQ and merged queues. I don't go on to mention that the game should be SoloQ only, but I do make a few comparisons, so I see how you might arrive at that conclusion.

    Honestly, I agree with you. Just having the option to queue solo separate from the more coordinated option to play with friends would be perfect.

    Remove Ranked DuoQ pls&ty

  • Allow any combination of teams. Let users opt-in to queues (team of 2 3 4 or 5)

    Examples:

    1. while match a team of 3 only with a team of 3, also include in the matching process all teams of 2 and individuals who opted in to the team of 3 queue.
    2. Individual opted in to team of 2 and 3 queues so he'll be matched with solo players and teams of 2/3
    3. You're in a team of 3 and your team opted in to 4 and 5 queues so you can be matched against a team of 5 with 2 solo players or a team of 2 who also opted in to the team 5 queue
      etc.

    If you do not like the odds against teams, you can solo only and wait until there'll be 9 other solo player available.

  • Sampson.2403Sampson.2403 Member ✭✭✭

    Not being able to make teams or ATLEAST duo Q in a "competitive ranked" environment doesn't make any sense at all. Why this is even debatable baffles me.

    Like, you gotta be crazy to solo que and try to climb rank. You're leaving so much up to chance of the match maker. It's like playing a slot machine (without the free booze).

    I mean, i always solo que, but that's because i just like to play the game. But i totally understand why anyone whose competitive wants to team with AT LEAST one other person. (I think they should just allow 5 man que tho).

    The reason that i push for duo/team que as a solo player is because i think it's the only way this game mode will ever grow 9n population. Hell, if there were actually a competitive scene here other than the few top guys id probably get more serious about this game and pwn all you fools 😀

  • nativity.3057nativity.3057 Member ✭✭✭

    When DuoQ was available, people complained, so DuoQ was removed.
    When DuoQ was disabled, people complained, so DuoQ was reinstated.
    Now we are full circle.

    PvP devs must be slamming their heads on their tables reading the forums.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There is only one solution.

    I'm convinced.

    Allow party sizes 1 - 5.

    Those are called teams.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • Multicolorhipster.9751Multicolorhipster.9751 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2019

    @Sampson.2403 said:
    Not being able to make teams or ATLEAST duo Q in a "competitive ranked" environment doesn't make any sense at all. Why this is even debatable baffles me.

    I mean, i always solo que, but that's because i just like to play the game. But i totally understand why anyone whose competitive wants to team with AT LEAST one other person. (I think they should just allow 5 man que tho).

    The reason that i push for duo/team que as a solo player is because i think it's the only way this game mode will ever grow 9n population. Hell, if there were actually a competitive scene here other than the few top guys id probably get more serious about this game and pwn all you fools 😀

    DuoQ would be more competitive in the context of a 2v2 arena, but when you merge high-ranked DuoQs with SoloQ players you remove a lot of competition in general by giving them an inherent advantage over SoloQ players in both matchmaking and coordination.

    Like, you gotta be crazy to solo que and try to climb rank. You're leaving so much up to chance of the match maker. It's like playing a slot machine (without the free booze).

    Climbing SoloQ is definitely doable. I've always done it, and you just said you do as well. I don't think it being harder is necessarily a bad thing, as ranked isn't meant to be easy.

    In the context of a slot machine, merged queues make ranked easy mode; akin to a PvE farm. It's like playing a slot machine where the first two reels are already fixed in place to the jackpot symbol.

    Remove Ranked DuoQ pls&ty

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2019

    @yanniell.1236 said:
    Separated teamQ and SoloQ is the way to go. Anything else is just people asking for easy wins.

    There's no place for a merged queue in an individual leaderboard. That is just stupid.

    on one hand theres players who say "easy wins"... on the other hand is game developers with facts and data saying premades lost more than they won...

  • Sampson.2403Sampson.2403 Member ✭✭✭

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    @Sampson.2403 said:
    Not being able to make teams or ATLEAST duo Q in a "competitive ranked" environment doesn't make any sense at all. Why this is even debatable baffles me.

    I mean, i always solo que, but that's because i just like to play the game. But i totally understand why anyone whose competitive wants to team with AT LEAST one other person. (I think they should just allow 5 man que tho).

    The reason that i push for duo/team que as a solo player is because i think it's the only way this game mode will ever grow 9n population. Hell, if there were actually a competitive scene here other than the few top guys id probably get more serious about this game and pwn all you fools 😀

    DuoQ would be more competitive in the context of a 2v2 arena, but when you merge high-ranked DuoQs with SoloQ players you remove a lot of competition in general by giving them an inherent advantage over SoloQ players in both matchmaking and coordination.

    Like, you gotta be crazy to solo que and try to climb rank. You're leaving so much up to chance of the match maker. It's like playing a slot machine (without the free booze).

    Climbing SoloQ is definitely doable. I've always done it, and you just said you do as well. I don't think it being harder is necessarily a bad thing, as ranked isn't meant to be easy.

    In the context of a slot machine, merged queues make ranked easy mode; akin to a PvE farm. It's like playing a slot machine where the first two reels are already fixed in place to the jackpot symbol.

    Here's the thing though. You SHOULD have an advantage for duoquing. The game mode SHOULD ENCOURAGE people to want to make friends, organize/practice as a group and progress TOGETHER. The name of this game is guildwars, not solowars.

    Right now ranked is such a toxic environment right now because you're forced to competete for a ranking that heavily relies on the performance of your teammates, whom every game, are complete strangers.

    Hehe, i can tell that at this point that you're not going to be convinced otherwise, and it's all good, i really have no dog in this fight, except that i think whatever chance this game mode has left of growing relies on promoting team play, not solo queing with 4 strangers.

  • @Sampson.2403 said:
    Here's the thing though. You SHOULD have an advantage for duoquing. The game mode SHOULD ENCOURAGE people to want to make friends, organize/practice as a group and progress TOGETHER. The name of this game is guildwars, not solowars.

    Right now ranked is such a toxic environment right now because you're forced to competete for a ranking that heavily relies on the performance of your teammates, whom every game, are complete strangers.

    If you want to encourage people to get invested and make friends, throwing DuoQ'd legends in with golds and silvers seems like a pretty terrible way to accomplish that. That's why merged queues are such a travesty and need to go.

    If queues were split, everyone would be guaranteed the same level of coordination; which would satisfy people looking to get invested in organizing teams, while not stepping all over the lower ranks and SoloQ farmers to do so. It removes the advantage Merged DuoQ provides to make them(or any size team really) more competitive by matching them up against similarly structured teams that are actually likely to provide some sort of competitive challenge.

    Hehe, i can tell that at this point that you're not going to be convinced otherwise, and it's all good, i really have no dog in this fight, except that i think whatever chance this game mode has left of growing relies on promoting team play, not solo queing with 4 strangers.

    You don't have anything to convince me of. I think the game should promote Teamplay just like you do, I just tend to think that throwing those who do in with a bunch of lower-rated SoloQ players who don't or can't isn't the way to do it. You can hardly learn, and get competitively invested in a game when you're constantly matched with people hundreds of levels above you(Unless they're cheating the matchmaker by playing on a smurf, in which case; even worse) who are also playing at a higher level of coordination with you. That's why merged queues are terrible, and an absolute drain on the population.

    A split queue doesn't remove the option to queue with friends, it only gives people the choice to be matched against similarly coordinated teams. Giving people that option I think would do well for retention when it comes to the population, and maybe; possibly, growth. Taking that choice away leaves us right where we're at now, and I don't think the population is going up by any means. If it were, I wouldn't have even started this discussion; because some games actually have populations or matchmakers that can support merged queues, but Gw2 doesn't.

    Remove Ranked DuoQ pls&ty

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Maybe I'm missing something here, but how would you separate Duo Que and Solo Que when teams consist of five players?

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @yanniell.1236 said:
    Separated teamQ and SoloQ is the way to go. Anything else is just people asking for easy wins.

    There's no place for a merged queue in an individual leaderboard. That is just stupid.

    on one hand theres players who say "easy wins"... on the other hand is game developers with facts and data saying premades lost more than they won...

    Yeah, a lot of people have forgotten what happened at the end of 5 man ques. They implemented a system at the end that was essentially adding 100 average rating or so onto a 5 man team to factor in the advantage they had through voice chats and general coordination. So a 1500 team would actually be queued as 1600s. Having a 5 man team of 1500 players going against a group of 1600 solos sounds pretty kitten fair to me. In fact, the 5 man probably has the disadvantage in that situation.

  • Multicolorhipster.9751Multicolorhipster.9751 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2019

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Maybe I'm missing something here, but how would you separate Duo Que and Solo Que when teams consist of five players?

    For the side of DuoQs: 2v2 Deathmatch, 2v2 KOTH. The option to play with friends doesn't have to be restricted to just one person either. You could easily have 3v3, 4v4 conquest, TeamQ, GvG.

    SoloQ to me seems pretty built for conquest alone, but I could be wrong; because such a thing has never existed in this game. It could also exist as the classic way to play ranked if/when people don't have the option to play with their buds. Plus, if you really want to give people a reason to queue either; it would probably be beneficial to not have them always be the same gamemode everytime every season.

    EDIT: Besides unranked TDM. Whoops.

    What I think would be really interesting personally, and what would make me invested in playing with a team; is seeing all those modes and whatever people can come up with on rotation every season. Sort of like Overwatch did, with TDM and CTF being given their own cycling ranked queues.

    Remove Ranked DuoQ pls&ty

  • Lighter.5631Lighter.5631 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2019

    this game is unplayable soloq at high ranks, none of these guys would reach 1800 with soloq.
    unless you are duo Q, the game would just be unbearable with your enemies having 2 high ranks and fillers while your entire team is fillers because there's almost no player base in this game
    either you wait for your friend to play with you or solo guys will just get frustrated having to fight people who only duoQ and quit.
    this system is also bad for returning player/new player for the player base it has now.

  • Multicolorhipster.9751Multicolorhipster.9751 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2019

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @yanniell.1236 said:
    Separated teamQ and SoloQ is the way to go. Anything else is just people asking for easy wins.

    There's no place for a merged queue in an individual leaderboard. That is just stupid.

    on one hand theres players who say "easy wins"... on the other hand is game developers with facts and data saying premades lost more than they won...

    Yeah, a lot of people have forgotten what happened at the end of 5 man ques. They implemented a system at the end that was essentially adding 100 average rating or so onto a 5 man team to factor in the advantage they had through voice chats and general coordination. So a 1500 team would actually be queued as 1600s. Having a 5 man team of 1500 players going against a group of 1600 solos sounds pretty kitten fair to me. In fact, the 5 man probably has the disadvantage in that situation.

    Merged queues of any size are bad for the competitive aspect of ranked regardless. If the matchmaker throws in 1700 Duos with golds and silves, I don't think for a second it could competently handle more than that. You'd just be amplifying every issue by 3x, 4x, or 5x depending on how high you let it go.

    Not to mention, people would just be right back to smurfing on alts; since there's no cap on how far apart two ratings can queue together. You have to account for the top% and the things they've already done with merged queues when considering merged TeamQs.

    Wouldn't you also prefer some sense of identity? If TeamQ was split from SoloQ, you could have leaderboards exclusively for teams rather than individuals. If you merge the two, it's just the same as it is right now, but worse for matchmaking/competition.

    And wintrading/griefing/idling too. Classic wintrading revolved around getting someone to throw on the other team whether through money, influence, whatever. If you put 5 people in 1 party against 5 people in no parties, it becomes very easy for the SoloQ team to have 1 player throw and simultaneously boost 5 players on the opposite team.

    On the other end, if TeamQ were split to full on 5v5 there would be no wintrading/griefing, you could have a leaderboard exclusively for teams, and be guaranteed similar coordination, rather than leaving it all to chance.

    Remove Ranked DuoQ pls&ty

  • Lighter.5631Lighter.5631 Member ✭✭✭

    unless you have a big player base like say overwatch, where if you teamQ with your highest rated member being 1900, you will always fight against an enemy team with an average rating of 1900. so in rating it favors soloq.

    but here you have a player base of 10 players at any given time, so the rating will be forcefully dragged because of the limited number of good players and the teamq of good players will always beat soloq good player.

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2019

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @yanniell.1236 said:
    Separated teamQ and SoloQ is the way to go. Anything else is just people asking for easy wins.

    There's no place for a merged queue in an individual leaderboard. That is just stupid.

    on one hand theres players who say "easy wins"... on the other hand is game developers with facts and data saying premades lost more than they won...

    Yeah, a lot of people have forgotten what happened at the end of 5 man ques. They implemented a system at the end that was essentially adding 100 average rating or so onto a 5 man team to factor in the advantage they had through voice chats and general coordination. So a 1500 team would actually be queued as 1600s. Having a 5 man team of 1500 players going against a group of 1600 solos sounds pretty kitten fair to me. In fact, the 5 man probably has the disadvantage in that situation.

    Merged queues of any size are bad for the competitive aspect of ranked regardless. If the matchmaker throws in 1700 Duos with golds and silves, I don't think for a second it could competently handle more than that. You'd just be amplifying every issue by 3x, 4x, or 5x depending on how high you let it go.

    Not to mention, people would just be right back to smurfing on alts; since there's no cap on how far apart two ratings can queue together. You have to account for the top% and the things they've already done with merged queues when considering merged TeamQs.

    Wouldn't you also prefer some sense of identity? If TeamQ was split from SoloQ, you could have leaderboards exclusively for teams rather than individuals. If you merge the two, it's just the same as it is right now, but worse for matchmaking/competition.

    And wintrading/griefing/idling too. Classic wintrading revolved around getting someone to throw on the other team whether through money, influence, whatever. If you put 5 people in 1 party against 5 people in no parties, it becomes very easy for the SoloQ team to have 1 player throw and simultaneously boost 5 players on the opposite team.

    On the other end, if TeamQ were split to full on 5v5 there would be no wintrading/griefing, you could have a leaderboard exclusively for teams, and be guaranteed similar coordination, rather than leaving it all to chance.

    then turn off team queue at plat 1.
    problem solved, everybody is happy.

    not that it matters, we could all agree on a system that makes us all happy but in the end Anet will implement the exact opposite out of spite or do more of the same, nothing.

  • OutOfOrder.3719OutOfOrder.3719 Member ✭✭✭

    @Eddbopkins.2630 said:
    Duo should be removed at rank 1650 and above. The top 50 dont need the crutch of coms and a friend to maintain there title. If they do they obviously dont deserve that spot.
    This is a team based game 5v5. My honest option is, there should be a 5 man que since this is a team based game mode.

    I second this. Only the 5 man que should be a separate ladder and Guild vs Guild 5 vs 5. A new game mode utilizing the current pvp system but with a completely separate ladder from solo que.

  • @sephiroth.4217 said:
    then turn off team queue at plat 1.
    problem solved, everybody is happy.

    not that it matters, we could all agree on a system that makes us all happy but in the end Anet will implement the exact opposite out of spite or do more of the same, nothing.

    Well... I mean, yeah!

    So long as they don't use it as an excuse to bring us back here a few seasons later. It was an admittedly pretty convenient excuse to say it wasn't fair back before Season 13. This is why we can't have nice things.

    Remove Ranked DuoQ pls&ty

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Multicolorhipster.9751

    I originally wrote this in response to your last response to me. But I took it way too far so I made it into its own thread:

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/84209/solo-duo-que-vs-5-man-team-que-ultimate-discussion-rant/p1?new=1

  • megilandil.7506megilandil.7506 Member ✭✭
    edited August 8, 2019

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @yanniell.1236 said:
    Separated teamQ and SoloQ is the way to go. Anything else is just people asking for easy wins.

    There's no place for a merged queue in an individual leaderboard. That is just stupid.

    on one hand theres players who say "easy wins"... on the other hand is game developers with facts and data saying premades lost more than they won...

    Duo Q is easy wins but for real cordinated players with real experience in playing coordinated and bringing sinergetic builds and coms, numbers are made counting all players, and in low ranks are a lot of persons who read the easy win thing and try to get in to that train and bring some random friend without none coordination, none sinergy and none playing together experience, or worse they duoed with some random guy from the previous match that they won

    EDIT: ¿and if they try for ranked solo ladder the RA thing of gw1? winers stay , losers get disbanded

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2019

    @megilandil.7506 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @yanniell.1236 said:
    Separated teamQ and SoloQ is the way to go. Anything else is just people asking for easy wins.

    There's no place for a merged queue in an individual leaderboard. That is just stupid.

    on one hand theres players who say "easy wins"... on the other hand is game developers with facts and data saying premades lost more than they won...

    Duo Q is easy wins but for real cordinated players with real experience in playing coordinated and bringing sinergetic builds and coms, numbers are made counting all players, and in low ranks are a lot of persons who read the easy win thing and try to get in to that train and bring some random friend without none coordination, none sinergy and none playing together experience, or worse they duoed with some random guy from the previous match that they won

    sorry I should have been more clear, it was about 5 man queues. I'm not sure if they've mentioned the stats on duo.

    but your analysis would also be correct for 5 man.
    all the mid ranks lost a lot because thats where all the casuals sit, that is where most of our playerbase should be. there should be incentive to play these ranks like playing with friends for fun... thats how you build population for all ranks.

    The top players will obviously win more than they lose but hows that any different to now?
    I can always learn from facing better players and better players will beat me 90% of the time. I feel like a lot people forget that fact and that it also applies to them.. Better players will beat you regardless of queue format.

    when it comes to team queue for 5 mans... theres so many issues with the game that could be eliminated just from bringing back a team queue. Theres also a lot of builds that would suffer too.
    Im sure those who have been around a while remember how "op" side noder builds became with the introduction of solo queue. So theres obviously balance issues that could be eliminated aswell..
    an example would be CI Mesmer... imagine if you had the opportunity to assign roles to each player, one for stab one for condi removal and so on... I dont think CI would be nearly as strong if we were allowed to coordinate just simple things like our builds.

    tldr: Im not a fan of duo or solo queue. Thankful I can still play with atleast 1 friend though.

©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.