Things that 100% make WvW unfun atm — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Things that 100% make WvW unfun atm

Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭
edited August 7, 2019 in WvW
  1. Defenders advantage is overtuned
    This one is quite obvious, defending was already quite easy pre-HoT but now defenders get 800 extra stats within keeps (400 in towers), perma 25% movement speed, tactics (EWP), gliding, faster upgrading, permanent supply etc.
    Effect of this flaw: Discourages guilds from helping to take objectives. Open-field elitism was born from this advantage. No smart guild will fight another guild within enemy keep. Keeps can be t3d under 2 hours which is completely unreasonable regarding how hard they're to take during daytime.
    How to fix: Well tactics are here to stay so nerf the stats of claim buff. Nerf them to half +50 stats instead of +100, 10% movement speed is enough. Increase dolyaks required to upgrade objective to 25/50/100, a small 25% increase. Not too unreasonable considering you can get bay upgraded all the way to t3 under 2 hours now.
  2. Metabuilds are too braindead and have too short cooldowns
    Well it doesn't take a sherlock to notice that scourges and firebrands are obvious downgrade from fun of reapers and guardians. We have moved from meta which included 2 semi-dps guardians (celestial) in party to a party system where there is 1 healbot firebrand that spams skills (and falls asleep during combat). Stability used to not only require awareness of when your party member uses it but also it was possible for 1 person to cover for the flaws of the other. This made 1 good guardian worth more than 2 bad ones. And don't get me started on scrapper, it heals and cleanses too much.
    Effect of this flaw: Well the game isn't fun to play, the metabuilds are overpowering the off-meta ones in every aspect, not just having superior cooldown management. The battles which used to be decided by which commander had better movement are now about which zerg has better sustain. 1 person can't kill another provided they have a support around them thus target focusing is dead for anyone else than scourges. There used to be times when synchronizing all waterfields, wellbombs, banners, dwarf elites within voice comms and training was actually necessary for a good zerg, now calling those things out on voice comms is redundant.
    How to fix (edited): Add amulet system to WvW, don't include minstrel. Another option is to remove Minstrel completely from the game or nerfing most outgoing boonduration in WvW for scrapper/firebrand. Make Sand Savant trait only increase the radius around the scourge (and let them keep 3 shades), shade should be a miniwell, not additional superior well. Remove purity of purpose (scrapper trait), the boons will never end if there isn't a punishment for bad cooldown management when scourges corrupt boons and scrappers turn them back to boons.
    EDIT: WvW amulet system should obviously be more complex than PvPs, maybe up to a point where you choose all your piece stats separately. Main point was to get Minstrel removed from the gamemode. I don't mind the current gear system, just existance of pure supports is destroying the meta too much. I have given up on the idea of amulet system because I forgot about existance of WvW legendary armor at the time of writing this. I just figured more complex PvP stat system where supports can't get full defensive stats would be better than PvE system.
  3. Desert map
    Well the map is reducing WvW activity. Not only the existance of it makes some matchups completely pointless because there exists servers that completely loathe the map and don't play it (f/e whiteside ridge), but it also has half the kills of any existing map ON ANY MATCHUP. This means people spend approximately 5-6 times more time on alpine maps and the active hours would actually increase by giving these people more options rather than catering to 2-5 headed minority on each server that prefers the empty desert.
    Effect of this flaw: One less map to play on. We all know one or two maps are often unplayable if you want to have fun because 1 server has either strange timezones (f/e baruch bay) or one side is so much stronger that going to their map is a suicide. Desert map is unplayable most of the time due to community shunning it pushing the amount of options players have to almost none. 2 alpine maps isn't enough. Red map decides most of the points from the borderlands, either red side doesn't care about it and loses the matchup or gets it upgraded fully for whole week.
    How to fix: Remove desert map, it is that simple. It has the lowest activity by far and even the times some commander/guild goes there, most people within the group prefer alpine map.
  4. Watchtower tactic
    Unfortunately the tactic has too large of a radius up to a point where it kills roaming and makes people lazy. Current iteration also punishes new players and guilds too hard.
    How to fix: Nerf watchtower tactic so that it only detects siege weapons. Key points of roaming like Danelon, Rogues quarry and Pangloss rise are completely covered by the towers. Not to mention you can't have small fights near enemy tower because soon cavalry will arrive due to the red dots. Scouts would regain some of the importance of the job back as camp defenders rather than relying on the tactics too much.
  5. Siege Generators
    Well they counter everything from omegas (up to a point where using alphas/guild golems is better), trebs, catas, ballistas, acs. Attacking is too simple, build 6+ golems and build shield gens, you will be in objective, no brain necessary.
    How to fix: Make the bubble pulse protection in addition to stability in area and not block siege projectiles. Protection is enough to protect from AC fire. You should be able to still be able to treb rams behind bubbles. Ballistas will be relevant again. Shield generator should become a tool to block disablers and projectiles while providing boons. It doesn't need to be counter-of-all-siege in addition to that.

ADDED;

Hey you! Don't forget browsing through the comments that people who are still playing the game and being on the forums actively have better opinion about the current state of the game, siege and maps while not yet having good nights sleep to think about effect of these things yet. But what I brought up were the apparent reasons that people quit the game and will quit the game. None of the roamers, scouts, guilds, commanders or blobbers were excluded. Try to see each point from another perspective, include thoughts like Why did/do they play WvW, would this be more fun to some style of play, would the changes bring more meaningful decisions to WvW? Is the current system of siege/maps/matchups balanced to all sides? Your opinion shouldn't be hastily formed and you should also consider how WvW community will adapt to the changes.

Ri Ba - WvW Commander, scout, loudmouth, tryhard
Making Desolation great again/Alt somewhere
Diamond Legend

<13

Comments

  • The only point I agree on is the amulet one.. But all stats, none excluded.

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:
    You had me until you mentioned amulets. This has been brought up many times with the vocal majority saying no to that for many reasons...one of the main is the build diversity would drop. Ammy system is in PvP and should stay as PvP only. Once you add ammy's to WvW, it will turn more into what PvP is today.

    As for DBL, some people actually like it and from what people gather, that map is here to stay.

    For siege bubbles, even as a duo/havok roamer I think they are fine.

    Okay I should have mentioned that WvW amulet system should be different from PvP and include more options than just 1 amulet. It should include multiple pieces you can choose, maybe 2 major amulet and 3 minor trinkets so in theory you could have 5 different stats forming your build.

    main issue is existance of Minstrel stats and I can't see them removing it from the game because PvE is their main focus.

    Ri Ba - WvW Commander, scout, loudmouth, tryhard
    Making Desolation great again/Alt somewhere
    Diamond Legend

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Threather.9354 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:
    You had me until you mentioned amulets. This has been brought up many times with the vocal majority saying no to that for many reasons...one of the main is the build diversity would drop. Ammy system is in PvP and should stay as PvP only. Once you add ammy's to WvW, it will turn more into what PvP is today.

    As for DBL, some people actually like it and from what people gather, that map is here to stay.

    For siege bubbles, even as a duo/havok roamer I think they are fine.

    Okay I should have mentioned that WvW amulet system should be different from PvP and include more options than just 1 amulet. It should include multiple pieces you can choose, maybe 2 major amulet and 3 minor trinkets so in theory you could have 5 different stats forming your build.

    main issue is existance of Minstrel stats and I can't see them removing it from the game because PvE is their main focus.

    Wouldn’t matter if you put 12 items unless it’s an optional thing and exotic level.

    It isn’t hard to get ascended anymore.

    And it isn’t hard to swap stats on ascended.

    This change would make the work I've done towards my legendary armor specifically for WvW a waste of time and money. I could give a flip about skins.

  • Zikory.6871Zikory.6871 Member ✭✭

    I absolutely love that my server hates Red map. It's an oasis when there is no guilds to fight. Why chase ppters when we can post up in garri and let them come to us.

    [KnT] Knights of the Temple

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2019

    @Calisanna.8732 said:
    I actually prefer desert map and know many guilds and roomers that do as well. “Pointless” is the opinion of some, not all. Mounts have helped some traverse the map quicker. The problem is that most people don’t take the time to learn the map. People get lost or hate defending it. I’ve had many fun fights on red bl.
    I would actually enjoy one of the alpine maps to change to something different. Variety is always nice.

    I learnt the map, I agree the map can be good if it was more popular. But I have been part of multiple guilds and commanded a bunch and tbh existance of the map is an eyesore.
    My main issue with the map is that some servers on EU don't play it AT ALL making some matchups completely irrelevant. In those matchups if there is ever a moment fighting enemy is unsavory, you can't ppt either because it doesn't matter due to existance of this map.

    I can understand if you play one day here and there without caring about the points or fights much, just chillaxing around, the desert map is tolerable but it just breaks the whole purpose of the gamemode atm.

    Ri Ba - WvW Commander, scout, loudmouth, tryhard
    Making Desolation great again/Alt somewhere
    Diamond Legend

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Threather.9354 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:
    You had me until you mentioned amulets. This has been brought up many times with the vocal majority saying no to that for many reasons...one of the main is the build diversity would drop. Ammy system is in PvP and should stay as PvP only. Once you add ammy's to WvW, it will turn more into what PvP is today.

    As for DBL, some people actually like it and from what people gather, that map is here to stay.

    For siege bubbles, even as a duo/havok roamer I think they are fine.

    Okay I should have mentioned that WvW amulet system should be different from PvP and include more options than just 1 amulet. It should include multiple pieces you can choose, maybe 2 major amulet and 3 minor trinkets so in theory you could have 5 different stats forming your build.

    main issue is existance of Minstrel stats and I can't see them removing it from the game because PvE is their main focus.

    Wouldn’t matter if you put 12 items unless it’s an optional thing and exotic level.

    It isn’t hard to get ascended anymore.

    And it isn’t hard to swap stats on ascended.

    This change would make the work I've done towards my legendary armor specifically for WvW a waste of time and money. I could give a flip about skins.

    Tbf I just believe minstrel stats are the main issue of the sucky meta. If you want to make any healer/support build, it just automatically becomes minstrel once you optimize it. I have 2 sets of legendary armor, soon 3, myself as well.

    Ri Ba - WvW Commander, scout, loudmouth, tryhard
    Making Desolation great again/Alt somewhere
    Diamond Legend

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Threather.9354 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Threather.9354 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:
    You had me until you mentioned amulets. This has been brought up many times with the vocal majority saying no to that for many reasons...one of the main is the build diversity would drop. Ammy system is in PvP and should stay as PvP only. Once you add ammy's to WvW, it will turn more into what PvP is today.

    As for DBL, some people actually like it and from what people gather, that map is here to stay.

    For siege bubbles, even as a duo/havok roamer I think they are fine.

    Okay I should have mentioned that WvW amulet system should be different from PvP and include more options than just 1 amulet. It should include multiple pieces you can choose, maybe 2 major amulet and 3 minor trinkets so in theory you could have 5 different stats forming your build.

    main issue is existance of Minstrel stats and I can't see them removing it from the game because PvE is their main focus.

    Wouldn’t matter if you put 12 items unless it’s an optional thing and exotic level.

    It isn’t hard to get ascended anymore.

    And it isn’t hard to swap stats on ascended.

    This change would make the work I've done towards my legendary armor specifically for WvW a waste of time and money. I could give a flip about skins.

    Tbf I just believe minstrel stats are the main issue of the sucky meta. If you want to make any healer/support build, it just automatically becomes minstrel once you optimize it. I have 2 sets of legendary armor, soon 3, myself as well.

    I’ve built a minstrel ascended heavy set, but never used it. I.... just can’t play like that....

    Even when I go into healing for ele I can’t use minstrel... Even if my main focus is to heal, I feel like I need to hit people with more than a feather.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Threather.9354 said:

    Tbf I just believe minstrel stats are the main issue of the sucky meta. If you want to make any healer/support build, it just automatically becomes minstrel once you optimize it. I have 2 sets of legendary armor, soon 3, myself as well.

    You can make the same arguments against Trailblazer and Marauder, but as has already been stated, the amount of time and effort WvW'ers have put into their gear makes it highly unlikely that ANET would launch an update replacing all of that with an amulet system, especially as some players don't even PvE, so if they can't use that armor in WvW, it effectively becomes worthless.

  • @Threather.9354 said:

    @Calisanna.8732 said:
    I actually prefer desert map and know many guilds and roomers that do as well. “Pointless” is the opinion of some, not all. Mounts have helped some traverse the map quicker. The problem is that most people don’t take the time to learn the map. People get lost or hate defending it. I’ve had many fun fights on red bl.
    I would actually enjoy one of the alpine maps to change to something different. Variety is always nice.

    I learnt the map, I agree the map can be good if it was more popular. But I have been part of multiple guilds and commanded a bunch and tbh existance of the map is an eyesore.
    My main issue with the map is that some servers on EU don't play it AT ALL making some matchups completely irrelevant. In those matchups if there is ever a moment fighting enemy is unsavory, you can't ppt either because it doesn't matter due to existance of this map.

    I can understand if you play one day here and there without caring about the points or fights much, just chillaxing around, the desert map is tolerable but it just breaks the whole purpose of the gamemode.

    I’m not on Eu but on Na we have some guild servers that hate it as well. As for the guilds I’m in between my three accounts, they all tend to love it. Just sucks when we have a like that refused to defend it.

    I do play daily and with guilds that chillax and with more serious ones. Recently the goal on one of the severs I’m on in T4 was to take second as to force the other server into red bl. So tactically it can be used as well. Again, I’m not in EU. My suggestion would be try to get some coordination at your server meetings. Find the guilds on your server who do enjoy the bl. Have them be the defenders and responders. As for ppt on the map, it’s really good for flipping t3 items if the other servers don’t want to defend it. Great for your score.

    Best of luck. Maybe some ppl will step up to play on the bl more. ❤️

  • Timelord.8190Timelord.8190 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2019

    WvW went downhill with HoT, no doubt. The WvW team is clueless.

    I just want to remove all the unbalanced defender's advantage garbage they added with HoT and the game would be much better. Keep aura buff and bloodlust buff. It's a very bad game design which leads to stale boring scenarios where people don't even try taking keeps anymore. Roaming is now pretty much dead because of all the sensor towers and mounts that make the enemy blob able to react faster and avoid fights.

    Far Shiverpeaks
    My YT- channel: Toxilo

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2019

    @Calisanna.8732 said:

    @Threather.9354 said:

    @Calisanna.8732 said:
    I actually prefer desert map and know many guilds and roomers that do as well. “Pointless” is the opinion of some, not all. Mounts have helped some traverse the map quicker. The problem is that most people don’t take the time to learn the map. People get lost or hate defending it. I’ve had many fun fights on red bl.
    I would actually enjoy one of the alpine maps to change to something different. Variety is always nice.

    I learnt the map, I agree the map can be good if it was more popular. But I have been part of multiple guilds and commanded a bunch and tbh existance of the map is an eyesore.
    My main issue with the map is that some servers on EU don't play it AT ALL making some matchups completely irrelevant. In those matchups if there is ever a moment fighting enemy is unsavory, you can't ppt either because it doesn't matter due to existance of this map.

    I can understand if you play one day here and there without caring about the points or fights much, just chillaxing around, the desert map is tolerable but it just breaks the whole purpose of the gamemode.

    I’m not on Eu but on Na we have some guild servers that hate it as well. As for the guilds I’m in between my three accounts, they all tend to love it. Just sucks when we have a like that refused to defend it.

    I do play daily and with guilds that chillax and with more serious ones. Recently the goal on one of the severs I’m on in T4 was to take second as to force the other server into red bl. So tactically it can be used as well. Again, I’m not in EU. My suggestion would be try to get some coordination at your server meetings. Find the guilds on your server who do enjoy the bl. Have them be the defenders and responders. As for ppt on the map, it’s really good for flipping t3 items if the other servers don’t want to defend it. Great for your score.

    Best of luck. Maybe some ppl will step up to play on the bl more. ❤️

    No my issue is not my servers activity in desert maps, it is the other servers. I play the map to reset enemy objectives and defend it when it is ours. My issue is more of lack of people and fight commanders there while some enemy servers are not playing it at all. This isn't my personal issue with the map, it is the WvW community dying because of it.

    Ri Ba - WvW Commander, scout, loudmouth, tryhard
    Making Desolation great again/Alt somewhere
    Diamond Legend

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Threather.9354 said:

    Tbf I just believe minstrel stats are the main issue of the sucky meta. If you want to make any healer/support build, it just automatically becomes minstrel once you optimize it. I have 2 sets of legendary armor, soon 3, myself as well.

    You can make the same arguments against Trailblazer and Marauder, but as has already been stated, the amount of time and effort WvW'ers have put into their gear makes it highly unlikely that ANET would launch an update replacing all of that with an amulet system, especially as some players don't even PvE, so if they can't use that armor in WvW, it effectively becomes worthless.

    Its ok, my heart knows that amulet system would take them 2 years to implement anyways. I just thought it was most reasonable solution to removal of Minstrel stats that don't fit any PvP mode.

    Ri Ba - WvW Commander, scout, loudmouth, tryhard
    Making Desolation great again/Alt somewhere
    Diamond Legend

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2019

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    4. Watch tower for siege only, is very interesting. But there's already many places to siege with cata and of course trebs out of range of towers. There's also many places to go to avoid being detected from watch towers, so players either don't care or are too lazy to take the longer way. So basically pointless change.

    If you read my reasoning it is because watchtowers reduce amount of small fights and punish new players. Also lets be honest, scouting died with introduction of it.

    I do know about the cata/treb spots that exist outside the watchtower so its not like I disregarded them when I suggested the change.

    Ri Ba - WvW Commander, scout, loudmouth, tryhard
    Making Desolation great again/Alt somewhere
    Diamond Legend

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It killed sneaking towers with small groups for sure, as my group use to sneak cap t3 towers and keeps all the time before HoT with 5-7 people. Still plenty of places to get small fights, but not as many players willing to do small fights, many just want to blob you down for a kill.... Also new players need to learn and get better, I don't think we should be nerfing stuff for their sakes, plus they also got their mounts to move around safely even when detected.


    On another note about desert, it's funny how the map was designed for more chokes and to break up zergs, and yet a boon sharing zerg is perfect for those chokes.

    Another derailing post. ^^
    EBG North Keep: One of the village residents will now flee if their home is destroyed!
    || Stealth is a Terribad Mechanic || Class Offense Defense Movement Balance is So Terribad ||

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2019

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    It killed sneaking towers with small groups for sure, as my group use to sneak cap t3 towers and keeps all the time before HoT with 5-7 people. Still plenty of places to get small fights, but not as many players willing to do small fights, many just want to blob you down for a kill.... Also new players need to learn and get better, I don't think we should be nerfing stuff for their sakes, plus they also got their mounts to move around safely even when detected.


    On another note about desert, it's funny how the map was designed for more chokes and to break up zergs, and yet a boon sharing zerg is perfect for those chokes.

    Nerf of watchtower would bring back roamers vs scouts regarding taking and defending camps. Also solo/duo roamers can just have fun on discord rather than being on their toes all the time when they take wrong step to a sentry/tower and get zerged down by 15 people waiting for commander. I can understand that people that play the game everyday can pay attention to likes of watchtower everytime but majority of WvW community didn't use to be like that. They play occassionally.

    Epic small fights near Ogrewatch, langor would be back. And well 1 random clueless dude wouldn't be able to ruin peoples plans of taking something by walking into the watchtower. Not to mention PPT and PvE groups would play more WvW giving more fights. They don't have to do the same sneak catas for Sunnyhill due to watchtower everytime walking all the way around but they can be creative and free. Not to mention even if you outsmart the enemy at sunnyhill with sneaky catas, one wrong step and they will make it in time to defend the tower due to red dots despite being oblivious of you being there until you took the wall down.

    There are lot of upsides to watchtower change that will bring WvW more alive from the gutter state it is in atm.

    Ri Ba - WvW Commander, scout, loudmouth, tryhard
    Making Desolation great again/Alt somewhere
    Diamond Legend

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2019

    This thread is very typical for WvW these days because I believe that Threater is mostly right in what he is pointing out but the suggestions are either problematic or not far-reaching enough.

    It's symptomatic of Anet choosing to go down a path of counterbalancing broken things with other broken things rather than nerfing what needs to be nerfed and buffing what needs to be buffed as well as having trouble with balance in their different game modes, not being able to keep up, split enough abilities or have solid enough a strategy with how to pair and adress the balance in the modes (ie., what balance in which modes work together and what does not, there does not seem to be plan for that, it's more so focusing on certain things at a time and letting others fall out of focus and out of balance). We see that in balance patches when there is a swath of changes for one specific game mode and then there's suddenly some odd out-of-place change or two motivated by another game mode. They would, for example, do much better pairing up modes either per environment (PvP open/instanced and PvE open/instanced) or per scale (open PvE/PvP and instanced PvE/PvP) and try to find common balance points there.

    More examples: Streamlined and built-to-fit stats like Minstrel are indeed somewhat braindead but at the same time it's not like we have a tank meta or that Anet has an easy time balancing all the systems they have thrown into the game. So while, yes, in a complete overhaul WvW would benefit from comming back to a state where builds are built by balancing different types of gear around different stats, minstrel being onedimensional for the classes that wear it and so forth. But, it wouldn't make the game better to just remove it in an environment where crit traits have become ridiculous, spam of "non-base stat effects" is everywhere and the game is pushed towards legendary selection of stats where Anet would have even more trouble balancing vanilla types of stat selection with HoT and PoF selections of traits and specs, when they already seemingly have trouble managing things as they are.

    The same goes for things like Purity of purpose and/or antitoxin runes as well as concentration stats. The game would benefit from scaling everything back but it's not like it would benefit from making conditions more prevalent in larger scale fights again and while there is a general overstack of boons, there is simply not enough stability, hence the kitten pirate ships. The only thing more boring than a stale pirate ship meta is a stale condi pirate ship meta like those around the PoF release. Eugh.

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2019

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:
    The same goes for things like Purity of purpose and/or antitoxin runes as well as concentration stats. The game would benefit from scaling everything back but it's not like it would benefit from making conditions more prevalent in larger scale fights again and while there is a general overstack of boons, there is simply not enough stability, hence the kitten pirate ships. The only thing more boring than a stale pirate ship meta is a stale condi pirate ship meta like those around the PoF release. Eugh.

    There are tools in the meta to fight both conditions and pirateship even if purity of purpose and minstrel are removed. You can simply add another firebrand in party or run melee tempest/shout spellbreaker that cleanse about the same amount of scrapper, they just don't convert them to boons. Dwarf elite will still give you way more defenses than minstrel gear would. What I am suggesting by removal of minstrel (or reducing support in general) is return to HoTish meta where minstrel wasn't the go to for supports and pushes were possible but you needed to coordinate dwarf elite, stability, resistance etc for them to work. Pirateship should always be life of bad players that can't grow enough balls to push, dodge "wellish" AoE fields and stay near tag, not playing idiotproof minstrel firebrands and scrappers.

    The spellbreaker bubble problem has already been fixed by anet.

    Ri Ba - WvW Commander, scout, loudmouth, tryhard
    Making Desolation great again/Alt somewhere
    Diamond Legend

  • Svarty.8019Svarty.8019 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm giving you thumbs up. The only point I disagree with is your opinion on the desert map. Let's remember that the only places you get epic defences nowadays are at the side keeps on that map.

    Necro. Never knowingly blasting combo fields since 2012.

  • @Threather.9354 said:
    There are tools in the meta to fight both conditions and pirateship even if purity of purpose and minstrel are removed. You can simply add another firebrand in party or run melee tempest/shout spellbreaker that cleanse about the same amount of scrapper, they just don't convert them to boons. Dwarf elite will still give you way more defenses than minstrel gear would. What I am suggesting by removal of minstrel (or reducing support in general) is return to HoTish meta where minstrel wasn't the go to for supports and pushes were possible but you needed to coordinate dwarf elite, stability, resistance etc for them to work. Pirateship should always be life of bad players that can't grow enough balls to push, dodge "wellish" AoE fields and stay near tag, not playing idiotproof minstrel firebrands and scrappers.

    Spontaneously that sounds like it would only push scrappers out in favour of tempests (and if conditions become prevalent maybe a return to support mesmers) while both those classes have existing off-meta roles. Not necessarily only a bad thing but not much of a change and a trend we're already seeing anyway. It would however mean less stab from conversion and concentration with no addition of stab from elsewhere so I really do not see it promoting options even if I agree with you that there are some tools in the game to fight the meta (albeit with enough barrier to entry to keep the meta stale). The suggestion does not really highlight those tools or make them more accessible though so the mundane meta is unlikely to change for the better.

    The spellbreaker bubble problem has already been fixed by anet.

    That's mostly because they choose an inconvenience change while keeping as powerful as it was. If people learnt how to cover their breakers bubbles can still dictate fights, so it's a "fix" that depends on people being simpleminded and running oversimplified approaches. Plus, quite alot of servers do not even know to control the bubblers so even the simpleminded suicide bubbling remains effective against them. That keeps quite the margin for bubbles to remain punitive, and I'd say the only reason we hear less complaints about them now is that people seem to just stack even more shades to rip through everything and more control to stop buttons from being pushed at those critical times. That seems effective enough to keep people afraid to push :p .

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Threather.9354 said:

    Nerf of watchtower would bring back roamers vs scouts regarding taking and defending camps. Also solo/duo roamers can just have fun on discord rather than being on their toes all the time when they take wrong step to a sentry/tower and get zerged down by 15 people waiting for commander. I can understand that people that play the game everyday can pay attention to likes of watchtower everytime but majority of WvW community didn't use to be like that. They play occassionally.

    Epic small fights near Ogrewatch, langor would be back. And well 1 random clueless dude wouldn't be able to ruin peoples plans of taking something by walking into the watchtower. Not to mention PPT and PvE groups would play more WvW giving more fights. They don't have to do the same sneak catas for Sunnyhill due to watchtower everytime walking all the way around but they can be creative and free. Not to mention even if you outsmart the enemy at sunnyhill with sneaky catas, one wrong step and they will make it in time to defend the tower due to red dots despite being oblivious of you being there until you took the wall down.

    There are lot of upsides to watchtower change that will bring WvW more alive from the gutter state it is in atm.

    Dude, that sounds more like a pay attention to the map and your surroundings problem, who gets zerged down by 15 at a sentry?. Taking out watch tower out (which takes an hour to even install do you even notice a change for people fighting around those towers in that hour?), isn't going to solve the roaming problem. Not with mounts around and not with most players too scared to even roam or duo on their on own these days because of some of the broken specs and game play out there, which affect you the entire time in wvw, not just around towers. Plenty of small fights still happen around camps, which is actually better so you don't have people constantly going in and out of towers, that gets pretty annoying.

    It's only a problem when you want to actually take the tower, not if you're looking for a fight cause most times you'd want to be scene or scouted to get people to come to you, unless you're chicken and just looking to gank pve people going for their nodes.

    Another derailing post. ^^
    EBG North Keep: One of the village residents will now flee if their home is destroyed!
    || Stealth is a Terribad Mechanic || Class Offense Defense Movement Balance is So Terribad ||

  • Karnasis.6892Karnasis.6892 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2019

    @Timelord.8190 said:
    WvW went downhill with HoT, no doubt. The WvW team is clueless.

    I just want to remove all the unbalanced defender's advantage garbage they added with HoT and the game would be much better. Keep aura buff and bloodlust buff. It's a very bad game design which leads to stale boring scenarios where people don't even try taking keeps anymore. Roaming is now pretty much dead because of all the sensor towers and mounts that make the enemy blob able to react faster and avoid fights.

    I have NO idea when you are actually playing, but yeah..... that's not true. Taking keeps is attempted or happens all the time. I spent like an hour and half the other night defending a keep on an enemy bl that we managed to t3 up AND was being hit from the other two servers. And we fought in it with multiple walls down, no supply coming in. And held it for a long time until the multiple guilds defending just gave up.

    So yeah, for "No one" trying to take keeps anymore, you might want to get your facts straight.

    Also, roaming isn't dead because of sensor towers and mounts. Roaming still happens even with those things. But it's seen as less necessary because every server ignores the towers until they are t3 or have been claimed long enough to HAVE a watchtower tactic placed in it to allow a quick response. If you deal with the problem of the tower being claimed long enough, you deal with quick response.

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2019

    @coro.3176 said:
    somewhat agree, but I'd argue conditions would be fine in group pvp now. They were a problem once, but that's because it was possible to put absurd stacks on one player and then epidemic them to everyone. That is not nearly as easy as it used to be. Currently, the vast majority of specs in the game can't play in large-scale wvw. No conditions, no projectiles, no single-target damage, and only a select few supports. That's way too narrow.

    Conditions, by their nature are very problematic to balance per both scale and depth at the same time. That's why they're often a hot potato in WvW (that always seems to be best balanced around the 5-10 scale while the scales outside of that are more common). I do also somewhat agree but I think that is the point contest between us. I consider conditions okay-ish balanced now but we're talking about doing things that would make them more powerful and especially more powerful in a world of overblown balance-counterbalance. So I am more sceptical to how it could run away while I am less of a subscriber to the idea that there is no way to approach larger scale gameplay with conditions, projectiles, focus damage or supports.

    It's the same thing there, I see where you come from with regards to the meta and niches but the definition of meta is a topic for discussion itself. I've always been more of a player that concern myself with whether something can have a role or not in a meta and with that I've always enjoyed playing things that pokes at those fringes. Up until the recent changes it has certainly been possible to eg., build condition hybridity into those support classes, found ways to use projectiles and single-target damage and so on. So I've rarely concerned myself very much with the difference between, say, a Staff Weaver and a Scourge in the meta as the difference between that Staff Weaver and a Ranger that always get spit on.

    The same goes for support, where as I mentioned above, I've seen Eles and Mesmers maintain roles in squads even if they've not been fully in the meta. They've also done that while having other second-tier options. Again, it's not like they're as far off as a Druid that is simply regarded and treated as garbage. Does that mean we should never challenge the idea of what is meta? That FB and Scrapper should always be slightly better than Tempest or Mesmer? No, not necessarily but balance is never a question of perfection or rotation and always a question of tolerable differences. The big problems that appear are rather when things fall way too far from the meta. It's the same thing I'm pointing to the above post as well, I am making some remarks about the Engineer here because if it keeps being given the Ranger treatment it will soon have nothing left, nevermind meta, it won't even have functional niche roles and that is an actual problem as opposed to the back-and-forth over what has the broadest appeal and recognition (what is meta, or what meta is). As long as there are tolerable differences, creative players will find ways to use off-meta appeal and sometimes even to change the meta.

    So in summary, yes, in the greater balance you are right that the envelopes of certain things are too narrow. At the same most of those things do at least have niche appeal, even at the 50-man scale so the envelope is large enough to be creative with and to maintain roles in a squad if wanted. The real problems exist when it becomes difficult to be creative with them or when you can't play with other people or fit into the fringes of the norms or when they shape tactics or allround behaviour in conservative ways (even if that, like meta, is also a question of player experience and behaviour).

    1. I agree but the biggest advantage at the moment is they run with stealth into their own keep and bomb the enemy zerg very hard to counter without it , it is just hard and it was always were hard to conquer an T3 enemy keep.
    2. I'm not sure what do you want to say here FB has one of the longest cooldown on skills some book 3 has a CD over a minute while my ELe elements can change in 5-10 sec. Scourges got also nerfed the great advantage of it is only he can hit some many at the same time and can corrupt boons at the start the built was a condi spammer .

    On the the DPS side nearly all DPS build run now full berserker this is why we have more healers now in the party. This also a result of Arena.NET nerfing high risk -high gain builts like staff ELE the old Tempest would rip apart those full beserker DPS built even with healer support this was the reason everyone DPS built did run with celestial to out stain them for a few seconds which is enough to kill them. I hear often that we have more DPS in PvP/wvw then in the past this is not entirely true. We have more DPS through that everyone running on berserker while Arena.NET did nerf a lot the overall DPS in the game. True it has also to do with how easy access you have to you DPS skills and if Arena.NET did give this 'one' this skills too much dmg or range for its class

    e.g now (max DPS with beserker stats )Staff Tempest 22k and Staff Weaver around 30k. Tempest pre Pof 38-40K dps, start with HoT 60k DPS, Staff Weaver with start of PoF 44k.

    Also in general the main tactic used by (better) guild is now stealth bombs from 1200 range by Revs at least in the EU is that so. Like I said somewhere else it is better then the brain dead pain train meta before that but open field for an public zerg impossible to counter worse even in an enemy keep. Also the guilds turned WvW basically into GvG for them the part of siege war or conquest war is dead I don't like that either.

    1. I can only agree we have no enemy zerg on the map atm if the developers/admin don't believe it they can look at the current much up tomorrow(Elona).
      I don't know why this is so possible because this map has to many places to hide and run around maybe the people feel lost on this map . On the other side as red on EBG we have the most asymmetric map with 2 tower and 1 champ easy to defend while the other champ is the worst champ on the whole map in conclusion the other offensive tower never get defended and built up.

    2. No I find it nice but I have also the idea that tome tactic scale with the rang of the object . In this case the range for watchtower would be on T1 smaller on T2 the same and on T3 even bigger. The idea was also giving tactic a purpose like : Armored Dolyaks, Auto Turrets. In theory you could also do that for Presence of the Keep and Minor Supply Drop.

    On the other hand I would give champs a T2 tactic register and moving the dolyaks and Minor Supply Drop and Chilling Fog there while in T1 would still be the rest including Sabotage Depot. Okay It would be just that Sabotage Depot and Dune Roller ( I know for guild that loves to make only GvG and PPK this sounds like an evil master plan)

    5.They are good because they allow you to come into a T3 keep otherwise you wouldn't be able to go through the wall /destroy it.

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2019

    Anyway, I'm only running my mouth now because I enjoy this rare chance at some higher-quality discussion here on these forums. Those last two posts were just me responding and musing to what you guys said and not really something I wanted to say, haha. I need to cut to the chase. Much of these reasons both of you guys (Coro and Threater) bring up is the reason I initially talked about strategy and plans around the modes and splits. That's the important, higher-order, bit in my oppinion. The other things we can talk about back and forth but they exist on a lower order plane of less importance and can be adressed from abvove instead if we're talking about dealing with things that cause issues in WvW and how to adress them. Does that make sense?

    If ArenaNet choose go a route of a larger overhaul where balance is kept in mind over PvP modes they can use things like stats to keep things in check. That means not only a way to adress things like Minstrel but also othe types of stats that have scaling issues (and often do not exist in sPvP) like Cele, Diviner's, Trailblazers and so on. Then their only concern when balancing traits is scalability. Even if they would keep sPvP as the focal point for balance details, it would likely keep WvW decent enough with just some concern to how changes would scale.

    If they go a route of splitting balance into an open world pair they can keep a larger factor in things like gear and stats to find other ways to balance the extremes that appear to keep things in check. That is possible thanks to how open world PvE does not really have any balance concerns. In such a pair WvW could be the focal point for balance concerns regarding traits and they could do things like adressing numbers in attacks and capping their scaling. They could, for example, then do things like returning to more of an old-school approach for conditions (like Confusion not ticking like it does) or do things like capping stacks in balance with player health pools - something that can't be done in situations where you need to push the boundaries of damage.

    I've been a proponent of the latter for a really long time. In all honesty, I would even prefer a scenario where they gave less attention to the instanced game modes and found ways to redesign and rebalance them as whole to be more in line with the content in the open world modes (ie., Scrapping raids as they exist in favour of perhaps more Onyxia-type of raid content with singular larger scale enounters that would be more in line with open world boss content and thus be closer in balance). However, barring that, I have always seen Open World PvE and WvW as a good pair for balance concerns. It is only lately that I have come regard a PvP-pair as at least a positive option, albeit a lesser option.

    The worst thing they can do is continue the mess that they are in, with a balance team that possibly is, or isn't, part of a competetive team, that mostly seems to balance around sPvP and "everything else" where the focal point of everything else is raids (but also without consistency in that). That is clearly the worst option and not a proper strategy in how to adress balance going forward.

    I believe that is what they need to change first, after that they can properly adress the overhauls that are needed and first after that do I see much point in talking about the best ways to adress our concerns.

  • X T D.6458X T D.6458 Member ✭✭✭✭
    1. Maybe stats can be scaled with tier level of a structure, kind of like how bloodlust works.
    2. Balance is garbage, has been garbage for a long time, will continue to be garbage.
    3. Desert map was poorly designed from the start, its fatal flaw is in the layout of objectives which provide no sense of progression whatsoever therefore discouraging fights and are basically only there to provide points.
    4. Watchtower is fine
    5. Shield generator is fine, its needed to counter the ac spam that has plagued WvW for years. It useful for both attackers and defenders, so no issue here. If anything it can sometimes benefit attackers more than defenders.

    BG

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2019

    @X T D.6458 said:
    4. Watchtower is fine
    5. Shield generator is fine, its needed to counter the ac spam that has plagued WvW for years. It useful for both attackers and defenders, so no issue here. If anything it can sometimes benefit attackers more than defenders.

    4. Watchtower removed whole concept of capping upgraded objectives for fights if group is relatively small (below 15 people). Unfortunately not many people are braindamaged enough to care about just points without fights. As a BG member surely you know that the moment enemy shows itself within the watchtower, 15 white knights will show up to defend. There is nothing inbetween, either you sneak the objective or you get farmed. This includes campfights (smaller groups) within lot of EB camps. The whole concept of watchtower being active while objective is not even contested is just disgusting.
    5. Shield generator is not needed to counter acs anymore, acs have internal cooldown now on how often they can hit a target. Simple protection and low healing is capable of keeping you alive under AC fire. Anyone who played through non-shieldgen pre/post HoT meta knows that you could very well sustain through acs then, and now it is even easier with firebrands/scrappers and ac nerfs.
    Also shield gen is obviously too strong for the attacker considering it blocks any siege. Build 4 of them, spread them around and defender needs whooping 4 disablers and mountain of luck to get through to the rams/golems/catas that will melt the gate/wall within a minute. Commander should have to use his brain by countering ACs with ballistas, meteor showers and omegas (action camera still allows you to hit acs on walls), not always use same "shield gens protect us from all siege" strat.

    I am kinda fine with gens reducing damage from ACs but any other siege is too much... When is the last time anyone built a ballista to take a keep.. Theres not even a point building a ballista to kill acs if the defender has a shield gen on the wall, haha..

    Ri Ba - WvW Commander, scout, loudmouth, tryhard
    Making Desolation great again/Alt somewhere
    Diamond Legend

  • Anput.4620Anput.4620 Member ✭✭✭

    Mounts.

    Body is 3 characters too short.

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2019

    @XenesisII.1540 said:

    @Threather.9354 said:

    Nerf of watchtower would bring back roamers vs scouts regarding taking and defending camps. Also solo/duo roamers can just have fun on discord rather than being on their toes all the time when they take wrong step to a sentry/tower and get zerged down by 15 people waiting for commander. I can understand that people that play the game everyday can pay attention to likes of watchtower everytime but majority of WvW community didn't use to be like that. They play occassionally.

    Epic small fights near Ogrewatch, langor would be back. And well 1 random clueless dude wouldn't be able to ruin peoples plans of taking something by walking into the watchtower. Not to mention PPT and PvE groups would play more WvW giving more fights. They don't have to do the same sneak catas for Sunnyhill due to watchtower everytime walking all the way around but they can be creative and free. Not to mention even if you outsmart the enemy at sunnyhill with sneaky catas, one wrong step and they will make it in time to defend the tower due to red dots despite being oblivious of you being there until you took the wall down.

    There are lot of upsides to watchtower change that will bring WvW more alive from the gutter state it is in atm.

    Dude, that sounds more like a pay attention to the map and your surroundings problem, who gets zerged down by 15 at a sentry?. Taking out watch tower out (which takes an hour to even install do you even notice a change for people fighting around those towers in that hour?), isn't going to solve the roaming problem. Not with mounts around and not with most players too scared to even roam or duo on their on own these days because of some of the broken specs and game play out there, which affect you the entire time in wvw, not just around towers. Plenty of small fights still happen around camps, which is actually better so you don't have people constantly going in and out of towers, that gets pretty annoying.

    It's only a problem when you want to actually take the tower, not if you're looking for a fight cause most times you'd want to be scene or scouted to get people to come to you, unless you're chicken and just looking to gank pve people going for their nodes.

    Okay imagine eb with watchtowers everywhere except anza. Not pretty infrequent event is it? Now remove roaming from all those areas and the camps they cover.
    Boom, you're left with SM (around which you can't roam without getting jumped on by 5 people), Umberglade (for red), Golanta (for blue) and Speldan (for green). Not much of space. And roaming is supposed to be free.

    Remove all those watchtowers. Boom, you have 3 times more area and 2 times more camps to capture. Even some towers you can threaten with your small roaming party are available again. Simple. Roaming is free again.

    Also removing watchtowers means there will be more actual scouts and campdefenders again. Some of which will be bloodthirsty and desperate for their camps and dollies. Now I imagine you think all of them are bad the game but unfortunately not all..

    Ri Ba - WvW Commander, scout, loudmouth, tryhard
    Making Desolation great again/Alt somewhere
    Diamond Legend

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2019

    There is always a meta stat. If you removed minstrels, people would just go nomads/concentration food. Even if you removed concentration from the game, it would play exactly the same. Nobody's going to want your off meta support still especially since removing minstrels probably nerfs it too. If you remove trailblazer, we just go back to dire. The main fault of firebrand is that tomes are binary (full support except fire which isn't that useful) and also because of boon corrupt spam meaning without boon spam it is impossible to support. But how much better is a meta that has nearly half of each party be guardians? Scrapper was too good, but they also have -3k health recently, so shrugs

    If you want alternative meta support, I'd look at pulling WvW support chrono out of the garbage heap, look into renegade/druid and nerf projectile hate. Oh, and maybe nerf CC so stability isn't that mandatory? People have suggested diminishing returns for years but they just love the CC spam I guess.

    While I agree tactics should be nerfed, I wouldn't nerf EWP, because that usually guarantees a fight. If anything I would restore waypoints to their old functionality and allow a brief pause in contesting so it's easier for people to keep fights. Though I guess with mounts this is sorta moot tbh.

    I'd also nerf siege weapons. Would reduce targets to 10, and with priority going to enemy siege. I'd also make it so that they get a -75% penalty vs players except arrow carts which should get a -75% penalty vs other siege.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2019

    w/c server do you play for?

    is your team > or < 35 and are you facing > or < 35?

    sometimes we blame builds for lack of players or lack of players with wvw experience. and in a skirmish, normally if the commander is ill prepared to take charge and enforce certain core carry builds, it's a sure loss.

    although i often blame sm siege playments and lack of squad members to carry 3 gens and 2 rams and 1 golem. thats 6 - our 15 which leaves 9 defenders against 20+ humping siege mortar treb ac balista cata on the inner sm gate from all locations 3rd floor and inner.

    but i am also glad this is so since, my team at my time zone is few. so we need all the help we can get against opposing forces of 30 or so everyday. >.<

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2019

    @Threather.9354 said:
    1. Defenders advantage is overtuned
    This one is quite obvious, defending was already quite easy pre-HoT but now defenders get 800 extra stats within keeps (400 in towers), perma 25% movement speed, tactics (EWP), gliding, faster upgrading, permanent supply etc.
    Effect of this flaw: Discourages guilds from helping to take objectives. Open-field elitism was born from this advantage. No smart guild will fight another guild within enemy keep. Keeps can be t3d under 2 hours which is completely unreasonable regarding how hard they're to take during daytime.
    How to fix: Well tactics are here to stay so nerf the stats of claim buff. Nerf them to half +50 stats instead of +100, 10% movement speed is enough. Increase dolyaks required to upgrade objective to 25/50/100, a small 25% increase. Not too unreasonable considering you can get bay upgraded all the way to t3 under 2 hours now.
    2. Metabuilds are too braindead and have too short cooldowns
    Well it doesn't take a sherlock to notice that scourges and firebrands are obvious downgrade from fun of reapers and guardians. We have moved from meta which included 2 semi-dps guardians (celestial) in party to a party system where there is 1 healbot firebrand that spams skills (and falls asleep during combat). Stability used to not only require awareness of when your party member uses it but also it was possible for 1 person to cover for the flaws of the other. This made 1 good guardian worth more than 2 bad ones. And don't get me started on scrapper, it heals and cleanses too much.
    Effect of this flaw: Well the game isn't fun to play, the metabuilds are overpowering the off-meta ones in every aspect, not just having superior cooldown management. The battles which used to be decided by which commander had better movement are now about which zerg has better sustain. 1 person can't kill another provided they have a support around them thus target focusing is dead for anyone else than scourges. There used to be times when synchronizing all waterfields, wellbombs, banners, dwarf elites within voice comms and training was actually necessary for a good zerg, now calling those things out on voice comms is redundant.
    How to fix (edited): Add amulet system to WvW, don't include minstrel. Another option is to remove Minstrel completely from the game or nerfing most outgoing boonduration in WvW for scrapper/firebrand. Make Sand Savant trait only increase the radius around the scourge (and let them keep 3 shades), shade should be a miniwell, not additional superior well. Remove purity of purpose (scrapper trait), the boons will never end if there isn't a punishment for bad cooldown management when scourges corrupt boons and scrappers turn them back to boons.
    EDIT: WvW amulet system should obviously be more complex than PvPs, maybe up to a point where you choose all your piece stats separately. Main point was to get Minstrel removed from the gamemode. I don't mind the current gear system, just existance of pure supports is destroying the meta too much.
    3. Desert map
    Well the map is reducing WvW activity. Not only the existance of it makes some matchups completely pointless because there exists servers that completely loathe the map and don't play it (f/e whiteside ridge), but it also has half the kills of any existing map ON ANY MATCHUP. This means people spend approximately 5-6 times more time on alpine maps and the active hours would actually increase by giving these people more options rather than catering to 2-5 headed minority on each server that prefers the empty desert.
    Effect of this flaw: One less map to play on. We all know one or two maps are often unplayable if you want to have fun because 1 server has either strange timezones (f/e baruch bay) or one side is so much stronger that going to their map is a suicide. Desert map is unplayable most of the time due to community shunning it pushing the amount of options players have to almost none. 2 alpine maps isn't enough. Red map decides most of the points from the borderlands, either red side doesn't care about it and loses the matchup or gets it upgraded fully for whole week.
    How to fix: Remove desert map, it is that simple. It has the lowest activity by far and even the times some commander/guild goes there, most people within the group prefer alpine map.
    4. Watchtower tactic
    Unfortunately the tactic has too large of a radius up to a point where it kills roaming and makes people lazy. Current iteration also punishes new players and guilds too hard.
    How to fix: Nerf watchtower tactic so that it only detects siege weapons. Key points of roaming like Danelon, Rogues quarry and Pangloss rise are completely covered by the towers. Not to mention you can't have small fights near enemy tower because soon cavalry will arrive due to the red dots. Scouts would regain some of the importance of the job back as camp defenders rather than relying on the tactics too much.
    5. Siege Generators
    Well they counter everything from omegas (up to a point where using alphas/guild golems is better), trebs, catas, ballistas, acs. Attacking is too simple, build 6+ golems and build shield gens, you will be in objective, no brain necessary.
    How to fix: Make the bubble pulse protection in addition to stability in area and not block siege projectiles. Protection is enough to protect from AC fire. You should be able to still be able to treb rams behind bubbles. Ballistas will be relevant again. Shield generator should become a tool to block disablers and projectiles while providing boons. It doesn't need to be counter-of-all-siege in addition to that.

    1- How ez u want it?
    2- U dont like build diversity? WvW amulet... not gonna happen.
    3- Dessert map won vote. We like dessert!
    4- How ez u want it?
    5- What? Shield blocks, that what it do... Shield not boon machine.

    I see no fun here.

    Ty for time! GL

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I like the idea of watch tower only marking siege weapons instead of players.

    Or maybe instead it marks any siege that hits it with damage. And/or guards that strike players mark them.

    The concept of watch tower is good, but yeah could be implemented better maybe?

    Regarding fb/scourge, the only real solution would be to nerf hammer revs, that will teach them !

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    After playing BG in ebg tonight.... I have to say bury all siege 6 feet under. This garbage has got to go, same with with rangers their 2000 yard range, pure garbage.

    Another derailing post. ^^
    EBG North Keep: One of the village residents will now flee if their home is destroyed!
    || Stealth is a Terribad Mechanic || Class Offense Defense Movement Balance is So Terribad ||

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    After playing BG in ebg tonight.... I have to say bury all siege 6 feet under. This garbage has got to go, same with with rangers their 2000 yard range, pure garbage.

    and that 2k is a straight line anything under that via hypotenous still gets hit. like a treb

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • the only thing i'd vote would be blackgate. not trying to be disrespectful or flame (don't pile), just saying it just drives activity away for the week, both my na accts are here this week so i guess this is fresh on my mind at the moment as its pretty dead on both opposing servers. and for me i think it really boils down to needing to get rid of the ppt mechanic. wvw showcases the game's (imo) unparalleled fighting mechanics and yet wvw is still mostly a capture the flag game which has always seemed kind of off.

    having worked in software for the last 20+ years i know nothing's going to change over night or even over the next few years (time/money/resources) but i honestly think changing the underlying mechanic of how wvw game play works from CTF to just combat would make it a lot more fun and get rid of this wide swing of ppt to the top then fall off the charts as they face a historically anet protected server that will out ppt anyone that comes their way. take the fly zones we currently have today and using the numbers of deaths per side determine majority ownership. whoever has majority # of kills in that area gets a ppk score addend for the tick. along wit that is a modifier based on players occupying the map so that (for instance) a 2:1 fight ends up with the team with twice the number/size gets half the addend per kill while the team with half the number/size gets 1.5 the addend. as the outnumber grows the ppk diminishes to the point where the vastly outnumbered team basically gets nothing while the roamers getting run over get quite a few points if they manage to down a couple in the process. taking out the capturing of the structures prevents these large groups from cowing the other team from participating in the game once they've taken everything and sit idle all day waiting for the chance to get participation when someone in the group kills somebody.

  • X T D.6458X T D.6458 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Threather.9354 said:

    @X T D.6458 said:
    4. Watchtower is fine
    5. Shield generator is fine, its needed to counter the ac spam that has plagued WvW for years. It useful for both attackers and defenders, so no issue here. If anything it can sometimes benefit attackers more than defenders.

    4. Watchtower removed whole concept of capping upgraded objectives for fights if group is relatively small (below 15 people). Unfortunately not many people are braindamaged enough to care about just points without fights. As a BG member surely you know that the moment enemy shows itself within the watchtower, 15 white knights will show up to defend. There is nothing inbetween, either you sneak the objective or you get farmed. This includes campfights (smaller groups) within lot of EB camps. The whole concept of watchtower being active while objective is not even contested is just disgusting.
    5. Shield generator is not needed to counter acs anymore, acs have internal cooldown now on how often they can hit a target. Simple protection and low healing is capable of keeping you alive under AC fire. Anyone who played through non-shieldgen pre/post HoT meta knows that you could very well sustain through acs then, and now it is even easier with firebrands/scrappers and ac nerfs.
    Also shield gen is obviously too strong for the attacker considering it blocks any siege. Build 4 of them, spread them around and defender needs whooping 4 disablers and mountain of luck to get through to the rams/golems/catas that will melt the gate/wall within a minute. Commander should have to use his brain by countering ACs with ballistas, meteor showers and omegas (action camera still allows you to hit acs on walls), not always use same "shield gens protect us from all siege" strat.

    I am kinda fine with gens reducing damage from ACs but any other siege is too much... When is the last time anyone built a ballista to take a keep.. Theres not even a point building a ballista to kill acs if the defender has a shield gen on the wall, haha..

    Watchtower helps greatly with scouting. I am not a fan of ktraining and siege wars. You can easily avoid watchtower to knock down the walls of a tower. I regularly scout and always go to defend objectives. I dont do this because I care about points, I do this to get fights. I am ok with losing a keep or tower if I can get a good fight out of it. What I dont like is seeing it flipped with no way of being able to respond. Years ago we would spend hours every night fighting over a single keep, trying to break a waypoint or defend that upgraded keep. It didnt really matter if we defended it or captured it because we got hours of fights out of it, that was the whole purpose of it. Removing watchtower would just allow groups to easily flip objectives that take hours to upgrade with no resistance, I dont care for this.

    Shield generators can be used by both sides. I dont like seeing a ton of acs stacked inside objectives, it doesnt matter if there is some icd on its skills when there are 10 of them next to each other firing on you, alongside other siege. Balista doesnt work on gates and walls, and doesnt have proper LOS to hit objects on top of walls, except in certain areas like SMC.

    BG

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2019

    to be fair, ppl will play the mode which favors them. and bg is good at that.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • X T D.6458X T D.6458 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @OldJanx.6798 said:
    the only thing i'd vote would be blackgate. not trying to be disrespectful or flame (don't pile), just saying it just drives activity away for the week, both my na accts are here this week so i guess this is fresh on my mind at the moment as its pretty dead on both opposing servers. and for me i think it really boils down to needing to get rid of the ppt mechanic. wvw showcases the game's (imo) unparalleled fighting mechanics and yet wvw is still mostly a capture the flag game which has always seemed kind of off.

    having worked in software for the last 20+ years i know nothing's going to change over night or even over the next few years (time/money/resources) but i honestly think changing the underlying mechanic of how wvw game play works from CTF to just combat would make it a lot more fun and get rid of this wide swing of ppt to the top then fall off the charts as they face a historically anet protected server that will out ppt anyone that comes their way. take the fly zones we currently have today and using the numbers of deaths per side determine majority ownership. whoever has majority # of kills in that area gets a ppk score addend for the tick. along wit that is a modifier based on players occupying the map so that (for instance) a 2:1 fight ends up with the team with twice the number/size gets half the addend per kill while the team with half the number/size gets 1.5 the addend. as the outnumber grows the ppk diminishes to the point where the vastly outnumbered team basically gets nothing while the roamers getting run over get quite a few points if they manage to down a couple in the process. taking out the capturing of the structures prevents these large groups from cowing the other team from participating in the game once they've taken everything and sit idle all day waiting for the chance to get participation when someone in the group kills somebody.

    WvW is not a team deathmatch kinda thing. It is objective based with large scale combat. This allows for much greater variety in playstyles. Fighting over objectives gives a sense of progression for players which drives activity and encourages people to take on different roles and to coordinate with others.

    BG

  • knite.1542knite.1542 Member ✭✭✭

    @Timelord.8190 said:
    WvW went downhill with HoT, no doubt. The WvW team is clueless.

    Is there a team? I thought there was 1 guy working on it.

    Where did you get that from? I'm not making a claim either way. I don't make assumptions like this to push my ideas ... and neither should anyone else.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:
    OP is a list of an individual's preferences and not an objective assessment of the state of the game mode, and it's not clear it was meant to be taken as such. So read the title as 'Things that would make wvw more fun for the OP' and it all makes sense . . .

    Objectively, most of OP's suggestions would just be change for the sake of change, not better or worse, just different. And that would be fine, just another set of parameters to adapt to. But there are a few exceptions . . :

    1) OP seems to underestimate the effect recent defensive nerfs. Structures are no longer worth tiering for their defensive advantages, further nerfs seem superfluous . . .

    3) Many ppl love desert. Taking desert from those who enjoy it and reverting it to alpine so the ppl who enjoy alpine can have a third copy to play on would reduce rather than increase the total number of ppl enjoying the game . . .

    4) I only roam and the watchtower tactic does not affect me in any way. I do not believe I am special in this regard . . .

    i like desert now. the very thing that made me quit before. players change

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • L A T I O N.8923L A T I O N.8923 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    to be fair, ppl will play the mode which favors them. and bg is good at that.

    Its rather easy if you have best coverage, and half the enemies are playing to dat you're 'good' in a game which is determined by numbers.

    Seeing almost Every server as a host or guestserver i say bg pugs are decent but also bigtime tryhards who are NOT ashamed of running over 1 person with a blob and emotespam that person, siege Them etc.

    There's always perfectly aimed siege on Every corner of the green side of the map and almost immidiatly thrown at you.

    The servers are so called'inactive' but looking at WvW stats/matchups the amounts of fights (kille+deaths) dont seem to be more in T1, which it should

    Its even debatable its less because its more blobbing in T1 and less actual 'small-medium sized fighting. Now your current link kaineng only lives when there's a blob Alive makes IT hardly unplayable' to beat.

    There's few roamer groups on bg and even less people willing to fight smallscale on equal terms

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    to be fair, ppl will play the mode which favors them. and bg is good at that.

    Its rather easy if you have best coverage, and half the enemies are playing to dat you're 'good' in a game which is determined by numbers.

    Seeing almost Every server as a host or guestserver i say bg pugs are decent but also bigtime tryhards who are NOT ashamed of running over 1 person with a blob and emotespam that person, siege Them etc.

    There's always perfectly aimed siege on Every corner of the green side of the map and almost immidiatly thrown at you.

    The servers are so called'inactive' but looking at WvW stats/matchups the amounts of fights (kille+deaths) dont seem to be more in T1, which it should

    Its even debatable its less because its more blobbing in T1 and less actual 'small-medium sized fighting. Now your current link kaineng only lives when there's a blob Alive makes IT hardly unplayable' to beat.

    There's few roamer groups on bg and even less people willing to fight smallscale on equal terms

    well, they want to win the ppt game. they don't really need to care about what we think though.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • aspirine.6852aspirine.6852 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I agree with some of the OP's points.
    1, I never understood the stat increase for the defenders. I would not mind if it got taken away completely.
    2, yeah there is no easy way to fix this. Well get rid of boonspam/sharing perhaps, but people will complain about feeling to squishy.
    3, Desert map is an abomination, the only decent thing in it is the Air keep, wich is nice and open. Garri and the firekeep are just terrible. The towers are quite meh too.
    4, I see no problems with this :/
    5, Shield gens were supposed to help the defenders, but instead it helped attackers more. I would say you cannot build this one outside of structures, that would make towers a bit more defendable, and inside keeps they can still build it. If the defenders are not showing up with numbers you deserve to lose the keep. But too late to change this since people will complain a lot when attackers cannot use it anymore.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    i guess this becomes i agree or disagree thread.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

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