Why you guys hate CI and MOD? Because you do not try to cancel your skills or cast it one by one! - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Why you guys hate CI and MOD? Because you do not try to cancel your skills or cast it one by one!

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  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2019

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    I'm inclined to agree with @bravan.3876 on this.

    MoD on its own is not a problem. if you're on your last legs and the mesmer hasnt burned MoD to try to stop you from eating their HP, then you already lost the fight.
    The synergy with that and CI is too much, because immob on daze can lead to immob locks just like the bugged entangle, that ALSO breaks your attempt to clear the immob if your clear of choice has a cast time.

    on its own, MoD is fine. You can generally tell when the mesmer is going to use it. Itll either be burned trying to stop you from bursting them, or to stop you from healing. You can stow to bait it if you're 1200R away or less, move further, to heal for free, or pressure the mes into a cast to heal. While I think its obnoxious that they can just daze whatever they want, I'm not sure nerfing specifically it is going to help. It may be instant cast, but keep in mind that mesmers are generally slower than thieves and a long range cast may be necessary to interrupt people wanting to leave a fight theyre losing. I bet any nerf that causes them to, say, lose every encounter with warrior because rush/whirl (or swoop) outspeeds Power lock is going to feel really kitten bad.

    You balance CI, and put a projectile tell on Arcane thievery, and I think you can call it a day until the next busted synergy.

    Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time. Unless you mean they are less good at running away, which sure, thats true, but Mesmer doesnt need to run away. Oh and if youre worried that you wont be able to stop a Warrior from running away if they save all their skills to do so? Good. Thieves havent been able to stop that for years, its about time Mesmer cant either.

    Sips tea
    But if a class is "less good at running away", Then most likely they're slower than the class that is better at running away. Mesmers have no mobility outside of blink/jaunt, Illusion leap and portal. They cant get from point A to B very quickly, and if a class is running away, they need to rely on blink/leap to chase, which have reasonably sized cooldowns. The fact of the matter is that objectively, they are slower than thieves, so it seems reasonable to me that there be slightly more leniency on the situations in which they can use their daze.

    Thieves can also stop warriors disengaging with rush, by the way, and most of their weapon sets allow them to move a substantial distance in a given direction repeatedly, so they have an easier time keeping up with a warrior (or any other high moba class) that decides that it wants to leave.
    I'm digressing though. My point is that MoD has a similar function to headshot, and fills the same purpose, but because the class it is being used on is slower than the class that has headshot, it has a bit more leniency on range and cast time. That on its own, is fine. What is not fine is it being able to set off a chain reaction that leads to a high-uptime snare, just like Pulmonary Impact was not fine in its high damage state when used on thieves that would interrupt their way to a kill.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    The daze will not kill you because you still can dodge all dmg skills will be used together or after it. I never got killed by Mesmer only spamming Mantra and hit autoattacks or even luckily hit a big skill accidently with it. Only well timed interrupts (like getting my heal when i am low already, a Mesmer surviving by interrupting my Chilled to the bones) can make a Powermes using Mantra and only Powerblock win a fight. Most Mesmer i met barely get interrupt vs me with their Mantra (mostly on autoattacks what does nothing wihtout CI). You sound like you never played a Powerblock Powermes with Mantra yourself and that vs ppl are not bronze lvl freekills anyway tbh. You sounds like a totally predictable player complaining about something he has no clue how to play against. What you say about stowing is inefficient and nothing i listed is a counter is just ridiculous.

    It will, because you wont be able to. Youre immobilized, remember? Its basically a DIY stun. Except better since you need a stunbreak that also cleanses condis or removes immobilizing effects. And yes, were talking about Mesmers who time it to interrupt. Theyre the ones that are a problem after all. And no, I have. I know how broken it is from first-hand experience. Its as if I was playing D/P with higher damage, far lower execution barrier and skill required, and far more resilient. And no, it has nothing to do with predictabiltiy. See, being predictable only matters when there is a way to stop the interrupts. Like say, with Headshot. There is no way to stop the interrupts vs Mesmer. Either you use no skills, in which case they kill you for free, or you do, they instantly interrupt it with no counterplay, DIY stun you, and kill you.

    Bravan is right. If you keep the immob out of the equation (keep in mind that immob comes from CI, which is now disabled and will probably not return in its past state), MoD does nothing but instant cast daze you, which is only dangerous when you are healing while low and only useful for preventing bursts outside of that. You keep implying that MoD has the immob part baked in. It doesnt.

    I may dislike Mesmer because of how annoying it has the potential to be among other things, but there's no need to touch MoD if it can't instantly snare you anymore.
    And, for the record, I am not advocating nerfing thieves OR warriors. Both of those classes as they stand now are not unbalanced as far as I know. I just think pushing to shave MoD, on its own, unaffected by traits, is silly.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2019

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    The daze will not kill you because you still can dodge all dmg skills will be used together or after it. I never got killed by Mesmer only spamming Mantra and hit autoattacks or even luckily hit a big skill accidently with it. Only well timed interrupts (like getting my heal when i am low already, a Mesmer surviving by interrupting my Chilled to the bones) can make a Powermes using Mantra and only Powerblock win a fight. Most Mesmer i met barely get interrupt vs me with their Mantra (mostly on autoattacks what does nothing wihtout CI). You sound like you never played a Powerblock Powermes with Mantra yourself and that vs ppl are not bronze lvl freekills anyway tbh. You sounds like a totally predictable player complaining about something he has no clue how to play against. What you say about stowing is inefficient and nothing i listed is a counter is just ridiculous.

    It will, because you wont be able to. Youre immobilized, remember? Its basically a DIY stun. Except better since you need a stunbreak that also cleanses condis or removes immobilizing effects. And yes, were talking about Mesmers who time it to interrupt. Theyre the ones that are a problem after all. And no, I have. I know how broken it is from first-hand experience. Its as if I was playing D/P with higher damage, far lower execution barrier and skill required, and far more resilient. And no, it has nothing to do with predictabiltiy. See, being predictable only matters when there is a way to stop the interrupts. Like say, with Headshot. There is no way to stop the interrupts vs Mesmer. Either you use no skills, in which case they kill you for free, or you do, they instantly interrupt it with no counterplay, DIY stun you, and kill you.

    Bravan is right. If you keep the immob out of the equation (keep in mind that immob comes from CI, which is now disabled and will probably not return in its past state), MoD does nothing but instant cast daze you, which is only dangerous when you are healing while low and only useful for preventing bursts outside of that. You keep implying that MoD has the immob part baked in. It doesnt.

    I may dislike Mesmer because of how annoying it has the potential to be among other things, but there's no need to touch MoD if it can't instantly snare you anymore.
    And, for the record, I am not advocating nerfing thieves OR warriors. Both of those classes as they stand now are not unbalanced as far as I know. I just think pushing to shave MoD, on its own, unaffected by traits, is silly.

    Thank you for put that right, i start to get super annoyed by ppl mixing things up, everyone can clearly see that he has no clue what he is talking about and i would have a hard time to stay polite to him at this point. Bronze lvl propaganda at its finest. He never touched Mesmer at all not even the lamest build it has i would bet.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    I'm inclined to agree with @bravan.3876 on this.

    MoD on its own is not a problem. if you're on your last legs and the mesmer hasnt burned MoD to try to stop you from eating their HP, then you already lost the fight.
    The synergy with that and CI is too much, because immob on daze can lead to immob locks just like the bugged entangle, that ALSO breaks your attempt to clear the immob if your clear of choice has a cast time.

    on its own, MoD is fine. You can generally tell when the mesmer is going to use it. Itll either be burned trying to stop you from bursting them, or to stop you from healing. You can stow to bait it if you're 1200R away or less, move further, to heal for free, or pressure the mes into a cast to heal. While I think its obnoxious that they can just daze whatever they want, I'm not sure nerfing specifically it is going to help. It may be instant cast, but keep in mind that mesmers are generally slower than thieves and a long range cast may be necessary to interrupt people wanting to leave a fight theyre losing. I bet any nerf that causes them to, say, lose every encounter with warrior because rush/whirl (or swoop) outspeeds Power lock is going to feel really kitten bad.

    You balance CI, and put a projectile tell on Arcane thievery, and I think you can call it a day until the next busted synergy.

    Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time. Unless you mean they are less good at running away, which sure, thats true, but Mesmer doesnt need to run away. Oh and if youre worried that you wont be able to stop a Warrior from running away if they save all their skills to do so? Good. Thieves havent been able to stop that for years, its about time Mesmer cant either.

    Sips tea
    But if a class is "less good at running away", Then most likely they're slower than the class that is better at running away. Mesmers have no mobility outside of blink/jaunt, Illusion leap and portal. They cant get from point A to B very quickly, and if a class is running away, they need to rely on blink/leap to chase. The fact of the matter is that objectively, they are slower than thieves, so it seems reasonable to me that there be slightly more leniency on the situations in which they can use their daze.

    Thieves can also stop warriors disengaging with rush, by the way, and most of their weapon sets allow them to move a substantial distance in a given direction repeatedly.
    I'm digressing though. My point is that MoD has a similar function to headshot, and fills the same purpose, but because the class it is being used on is slower than the class that has headshot, it has a bit more leniency on range and cast time. That on its own, is fine. What is not fine is it being able to set off a chain reaction that leads to a high-uptime snare, just like Pulmonary Impact was not fine in its high damage state when used on thieves that would interrupt their way to a kill.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    The daze will not kill you because you still can dodge all dmg skills will be used together or after it. I never got killed by Mesmer only spamming Mantra and hit autoattacks or even luckily hit a big skill accidently with it. Only well timed interrupts (like getting my heal when i am low already, a Mesmer surviving by interrupting my Chilled to the bones) can make a Powermes using Mantra and only Powerblock win a fight. Most Mesmer i met barely get interrupt vs me with their Mantra (mostly on autoattacks what does nothing wihtout CI). You sound like you never played a Powerblock Powermes with Mantra yourself and that vs ppl are not bronze lvl freekills anyway tbh. You sounds like a totally predictable player complaining about something he has no clue how to play against. What you say about stowing is inefficient and nothing i listed is a counter is just ridiculous.

    It will, because you wont be able to. Youre immobilized, remember? Its basically a DIY stun. Except better since you need a stunbreak that also cleanses condis or removes immobilizing effects. And yes, were talking about Mesmers who time it to interrupt. Theyre the ones that are a problem after all. And no, I have. I know how broken it is from first-hand experience. Its as if I was playing D/P with higher damage, far lower execution barrier and skill required, and far more resilient. And no, it has nothing to do with predictabiltiy. See, being predictable only matters when there is a way to stop the interrupts. Like say, with Headshot. There is no way to stop the interrupts vs Mesmer. Either you use no skills, in which case they kill you for free, or you do, they instantly interrupt it with no counterplay, DIY stun you, and kill you.

    Bravan is right. If you keep the immob out of the equation (keep in mind that immob comes from CI, which is now disabled and will probably not return in its past state), MoD does nothing but instant cast daze you, which is only dangerous when you are healing while low and only useful for preventing bursts outside of that. You keep implying that MoD has the immob part baked in. It doesnt.

    I may dislike Mesmer because of how annoying it has the potential to be among other things, but there's no need to touch MoD if it can't instantly snare you anymore.

    Eh, not quite. Thief is good at running away because you can simply stealth up, move away from the enemy while theyre not sure where you are, and depending on the gamemode either go for a decap, or mount up and just run away. Mesmers options for long-term stealth are more limited. Theyre good at oneshotting out of stealth. Not so good at running away thanks to stealth. Now, as for your examples, saying that "Mesmer have no mobility outside of the best long-distance teleportation spell, essentially thieves shadowstep on a much shorter cooldown, a lesser thieves shadowstep on a lower cooldown, and a skill that lets them transform dodges into fast long-range dashes". Is like saying "Scourge has no boon transformation outside the 3 skills they have that transform boons". And you forgot to mention that Mirage effectively gets Superspeed while in Mirage Cloak. And I guess the sword ambush attack. So no, objectively they arent slower.

    In fact, I would argue theyre generally faster. The big advantage thief has, and the reason theyre still better decap bots is the nature of their movement. Thieves primarily move around the map with shortbow 5. Being a blink, this means thieves handle elevation much better. Mesmer only has Blink for moving up large distances, as Jaunt is too short, and the sword ambush skill is just vertical movement. Thieves are better at horizontal movement, and for sPvP decap purposes thats better. For the purposes of catching up with people? It isnt. Its actually worse. Unless they are a thief, because noone else handles elevation well either, at which point it doesnt matter either way. Thief is good at not fighting after all.

    They cannot. Something youd know if you played Warrior in WvW for 10 minutes. Its honestly sad to see the poor thieves just struggle to keep up only to fail anyway in the end. And no, the only weaponset that does is shortbow 5. The rest of the weapons are actually terrible at moving distances, Sword can no longer do the fake backport so its out, Rifles teleport is just bad, and if youre already out of range all D/P has is Heartseeker, which is honestly just a sad skill nowadays.

    So, now that we have established that the class its being used on is in fact faster, not slower, does that change your mindset? How about the fact that Mesmer also has vastly superior defensive and offensive capabilities? Youd imagine that the class that is great at fighting either way would at least be worse at stopping the enemy from hitting their big hits than the class thats pretty bad at it. But no, because thats how it goes apparently.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    I'm inclined to agree with @bravan.3876 on this.

    MoD on its own is not a problem. if you're on your last legs and the mesmer hasnt burned MoD to try to stop you from eating their HP, then you already lost the fight.
    The synergy with that and CI is too much, because immob on daze can lead to immob locks just like the bugged entangle, that ALSO breaks your attempt to clear the immob if your clear of choice has a cast time.

    on its own, MoD is fine. You can generally tell when the mesmer is going to use it. Itll either be burned trying to stop you from bursting them, or to stop you from healing. You can stow to bait it if you're 1200R away or less, move further, to heal for free, or pressure the mes into a cast to heal. While I think its obnoxious that they can just daze whatever they want, I'm not sure nerfing specifically it is going to help. It may be instant cast, but keep in mind that mesmers are generally slower than thieves and a long range cast may be necessary to interrupt people wanting to leave a fight theyre losing. I bet any nerf that causes them to, say, lose every encounter with warrior because rush/whirl (or swoop) outspeeds Power lock is going to feel really kitten bad.

    You balance CI, and put a projectile tell on Arcane thievery, and I think you can call it a day until the next busted synergy.

    Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time. Unless you mean they are less good at running away, which sure, thats true, but Mesmer doesnt need to run away. Oh and if youre worried that you wont be able to stop a Warrior from running away if they save all their skills to do so? Good. Thieves havent been able to stop that for years, its about time Mesmer cant either.

    Sips tea
    But if a class is "less good at running away", Then most likely they're slower than the class that is better at running away. Mesmers have no mobility outside of blink/jaunt, Illusion leap and portal. They cant get from point A to B very quickly, and if a class is running away, they need to rely on blink/leap to chase, which have reasonably sized cooldowns. The fact of the matter is that objectively, they are slower than thieves, so it seems reasonable to me that there be slightly more leniency on the situations in which they can use their daze.

    Thieves can also stop warriors disengaging with rush, by the way, and most of their weapon sets allow them to move a substantial distance in a given direction repeatedly.
    I'm digressing though. My point is that MoD has a similar function to headshot, and fills the same purpose, but because the class it is being used on is slower than the class that has headshot, it has a bit more leniency on range and cast time. That on its own, is fine. What is not fine is it being able to set off a chain reaction that leads to a high-uptime snare, just like Pulmonary Impact was not fine in its high damage state when used on thieves that would interrupt their way to a kill.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    The daze will not kill you because you still can dodge all dmg skills will be used together or after it. I never got killed by Mesmer only spamming Mantra and hit autoattacks or even luckily hit a big skill accidently with it. Only well timed interrupts (like getting my heal when i am low already, a Mesmer surviving by interrupting my Chilled to the bones) can make a Powermes using Mantra and only Powerblock win a fight. Most Mesmer i met barely get interrupt vs me with their Mantra (mostly on autoattacks what does nothing wihtout CI). You sound like you never played a Powerblock Powermes with Mantra yourself and that vs ppl are not bronze lvl freekills anyway tbh. You sounds like a totally predictable player complaining about something he has no clue how to play against. What you say about stowing is inefficient and nothing i listed is a counter is just ridiculous.

    It will, because you wont be able to. Youre immobilized, remember? Its basically a DIY stun. Except better since you need a stunbreak that also cleanses condis or removes immobilizing effects. And yes, were talking about Mesmers who time it to interrupt. Theyre the ones that are a problem after all. And no, I have. I know how broken it is from first-hand experience. Its as if I was playing D/P with higher damage, far lower execution barrier and skill required, and far more resilient. And no, it has nothing to do with predictabiltiy. See, being predictable only matters when there is a way to stop the interrupts. Like say, with Headshot. There is no way to stop the interrupts vs Mesmer. Either you use no skills, in which case they kill you for free, or you do, they instantly interrupt it with no counterplay, DIY stun you, and kill you.

    Bravan is right. If you keep the immob out of the equation (keep in mind that immob comes from CI, which is now disabled and will probably not return in its past state), MoD does nothing but instant cast daze you, which is only dangerous when you are healing while low and only useful for preventing bursts outside of that. You keep implying that MoD has the immob part baked in. It doesnt.

    I may dislike Mesmer because of how annoying it has the potential to be among other things, but there's no need to touch MoD if it can't instantly snare you anymore.
    And, for the record, I am not advocating nerfing thieves OR warriors. Both of those classes as they stand now are not unbalanced as far as I know. I just think pushing to shave MoD, on its own, unaffected by traits, is silly.

    Thank you for put that right, i start to get super annoyed by ppl mixing things up, everyone can clearly see that he has no clue what he is talking about and i would have a hard time to stay polite to him at this point. Bronze lvl propaganda at its finest. He never touched Mesmer at all not even the lamest build it has i would bet.

    Yknow, the fact that you resort to ad hominems every time someone dismantles your poor arguments makes it kinda clear you arent neutral at all. I even call doubt on your claim that you dont main mesmer. In fact, I think not only do you main Mirage, you dont know how to play anything else, hence why youre so adamant about keeping things as they are.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2019

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    I'm inclined to agree with @bravan.3876 on this.

    MoD on its own is not a problem. if you're on your last legs and the mesmer hasnt burned MoD to try to stop you from eating their HP, then you already lost the fight.
    The synergy with that and CI is too much, because immob on daze can lead to immob locks just like the bugged entangle, that ALSO breaks your attempt to clear the immob if your clear of choice has a cast time.

    on its own, MoD is fine. You can generally tell when the mesmer is going to use it. Itll either be burned trying to stop you from bursting them, or to stop you from healing. You can stow to bait it if you're 1200R away or less, move further, to heal for free, or pressure the mes into a cast to heal. While I think its obnoxious that they can just daze whatever they want, I'm not sure nerfing specifically it is going to help. It may be instant cast, but keep in mind that mesmers are generally slower than thieves and a long range cast may be necessary to interrupt people wanting to leave a fight theyre losing. I bet any nerf that causes them to, say, lose every encounter with warrior because rush/whirl (or swoop) outspeeds Power lock is going to feel really kitten bad.

    You balance CI, and put a projectile tell on Arcane thievery, and I think you can call it a day until the next busted synergy.

    Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time. Unless you mean they are less good at running away, which sure, thats true, but Mesmer doesnt need to run away. Oh and if youre worried that you wont be able to stop a Warrior from running away if they save all their skills to do so? Good. Thieves havent been able to stop that for years, its about time Mesmer cant either.

    Sips tea
    But if a class is "less good at running away", Then most likely they're slower than the class that is better at running away. Mesmers have no mobility outside of blink/jaunt, Illusion leap and portal. They cant get from point A to B very quickly, and if a class is running away, they need to rely on blink/leap to chase, which have reasonably sized cooldowns. The fact of the matter is that objectively, they are slower than thieves, so it seems reasonable to me that there be slightly more leniency on the situations in which they can use their daze.

    Thieves can also stop warriors disengaging with rush, by the way, and most of their weapon sets allow them to move a substantial distance in a given direction repeatedly.
    I'm digressing though. My point is that MoD has a similar function to headshot, and fills the same purpose, but because the class it is being used on is slower than the class that has headshot, it has a bit more leniency on range and cast time. That on its own, is fine. What is not fine is it being able to set off a chain reaction that leads to a high-uptime snare, just like Pulmonary Impact was not fine in its high damage state when used on thieves that would interrupt their way to a kill.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    The daze will not kill you because you still can dodge all dmg skills will be used together or after it. I never got killed by Mesmer only spamming Mantra and hit autoattacks or even luckily hit a big skill accidently with it. Only well timed interrupts (like getting my heal when i am low already, a Mesmer surviving by interrupting my Chilled to the bones) can make a Powermes using Mantra and only Powerblock win a fight. Most Mesmer i met barely get interrupt vs me with their Mantra (mostly on autoattacks what does nothing wihtout CI). You sound like you never played a Powerblock Powermes with Mantra yourself and that vs ppl are not bronze lvl freekills anyway tbh. You sounds like a totally predictable player complaining about something he has no clue how to play against. What you say about stowing is inefficient and nothing i listed is a counter is just ridiculous.

    It will, because you wont be able to. Youre immobilized, remember? Its basically a DIY stun. Except better since you need a stunbreak that also cleanses condis or removes immobilizing effects. And yes, were talking about Mesmers who time it to interrupt. Theyre the ones that are a problem after all. And no, I have. I know how broken it is from first-hand experience. Its as if I was playing D/P with higher damage, far lower execution barrier and skill required, and far more resilient. And no, it has nothing to do with predictabiltiy. See, being predictable only matters when there is a way to stop the interrupts. Like say, with Headshot. There is no way to stop the interrupts vs Mesmer. Either you use no skills, in which case they kill you for free, or you do, they instantly interrupt it with no counterplay, DIY stun you, and kill you.

    Bravan is right. If you keep the immob out of the equation (keep in mind that immob comes from CI, which is now disabled and will probably not return in its past state), MoD does nothing but instant cast daze you, which is only dangerous when you are healing while low and only useful for preventing bursts outside of that. You keep implying that MoD has the immob part baked in. It doesnt.

    I may dislike Mesmer because of how annoying it has the potential to be among other things, but there's no need to touch MoD if it can't instantly snare you anymore.
    And, for the record, I am not advocating nerfing thieves OR warriors. Both of those classes as they stand now are not unbalanced as far as I know. I just think pushing to shave MoD, on its own, unaffected by traits, is silly.

    Thank you for put that right, i start to get super annoyed by ppl mixing things up, everyone can clearly see that he has no clue what he is talking about and i would have a hard time to stay polite to him at this point. Bronze lvl propaganda at its finest. He never touched Mesmer at all not even the lamest build it has i would bet.

    Yknow, the fact that you resort to ad hominems every time someone dismantles your poor arguments makes it kinda clear you arent neutral at all. I even call doubt on your claim that you dont main mesmer. In fact, I think not only do you main Mirage, you dont know how to play anything else, hence why youre so adamant about keeping things as they are.

    You don't need to main Mesmer to know that Mantra of Distraction has no immob and how to counter Mantra and how effective stowing is not only to avoid interrupts. If you feel better when you accuse me of lying than do it. It got clear who has no clue what he is talking about and i showed in several other posts that i have clue about other classes too. It is the forums overdoing hate and exaggerating creating a thread with mesmer complains every 3 days forcing me an all other ppl here to talk about Mesmer all day long. I was one of the the first ones calling for nerfs to CI and Condimes in general btw check my comment history.
    Case closed, you disgraced yourself by showing your cluelessness not me and i am out before i say something i have to feel sry for later.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    I'm inclined to agree with @bravan.3876 on this.

    MoD on its own is not a problem. if you're on your last legs and the mesmer hasnt burned MoD to try to stop you from eating their HP, then you already lost the fight.
    The synergy with that and CI is too much, because immob on daze can lead to immob locks just like the bugged entangle, that ALSO breaks your attempt to clear the immob if your clear of choice has a cast time.

    on its own, MoD is fine. You can generally tell when the mesmer is going to use it. Itll either be burned trying to stop you from bursting them, or to stop you from healing. You can stow to bait it if you're 1200R away or less, move further, to heal for free, or pressure the mes into a cast to heal. While I think its obnoxious that they can just daze whatever they want, I'm not sure nerfing specifically it is going to help. It may be instant cast, but keep in mind that mesmers are generally slower than thieves and a long range cast may be necessary to interrupt people wanting to leave a fight theyre losing. I bet any nerf that causes them to, say, lose every encounter with warrior because rush/whirl (or swoop) outspeeds Power lock is going to feel really kitten bad.

    You balance CI, and put a projectile tell on Arcane thievery, and I think you can call it a day until the next busted synergy.

    Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time. Unless you mean they are less good at running away, which sure, thats true, but Mesmer doesnt need to run away. Oh and if youre worried that you wont be able to stop a Warrior from running away if they save all their skills to do so? Good. Thieves havent been able to stop that for years, its about time Mesmer cant either.

    Sips tea
    But if a class is "less good at running away", Then most likely they're slower than the class that is better at running away. Mesmers have no mobility outside of blink/jaunt, Illusion leap and portal. They cant get from point A to B very quickly, and if a class is running away, they need to rely on blink/leap to chase, which have reasonably sized cooldowns. The fact of the matter is that objectively, they are slower than thieves, so it seems reasonable to me that there be slightly more leniency on the situations in which they can use their daze.

    Thieves can also stop warriors disengaging with rush, by the way, and most of their weapon sets allow them to move a substantial distance in a given direction repeatedly.
    I'm digressing though. My point is that MoD has a similar function to headshot, and fills the same purpose, but because the class it is being used on is slower than the class that has headshot, it has a bit more leniency on range and cast time. That on its own, is fine. What is not fine is it being able to set off a chain reaction that leads to a high-uptime snare, just like Pulmonary Impact was not fine in its high damage state when used on thieves that would interrupt their way to a kill.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    The daze will not kill you because you still can dodge all dmg skills will be used together or after it. I never got killed by Mesmer only spamming Mantra and hit autoattacks or even luckily hit a big skill accidently with it. Only well timed interrupts (like getting my heal when i am low already, a Mesmer surviving by interrupting my Chilled to the bones) can make a Powermes using Mantra and only Powerblock win a fight. Most Mesmer i met barely get interrupt vs me with their Mantra (mostly on autoattacks what does nothing wihtout CI). You sound like you never played a Powerblock Powermes with Mantra yourself and that vs ppl are not bronze lvl freekills anyway tbh. You sounds like a totally predictable player complaining about something he has no clue how to play against. What you say about stowing is inefficient and nothing i listed is a counter is just ridiculous.

    It will, because you wont be able to. Youre immobilized, remember? Its basically a DIY stun. Except better since you need a stunbreak that also cleanses condis or removes immobilizing effects. And yes, were talking about Mesmers who time it to interrupt. Theyre the ones that are a problem after all. And no, I have. I know how broken it is from first-hand experience. Its as if I was playing D/P with higher damage, far lower execution barrier and skill required, and far more resilient. And no, it has nothing to do with predictabiltiy. See, being predictable only matters when there is a way to stop the interrupts. Like say, with Headshot. There is no way to stop the interrupts vs Mesmer. Either you use no skills, in which case they kill you for free, or you do, they instantly interrupt it with no counterplay, DIY stun you, and kill you.

    Bravan is right. If you keep the immob out of the equation (keep in mind that immob comes from CI, which is now disabled and will probably not return in its past state), MoD does nothing but instant cast daze you, which is only dangerous when you are healing while low and only useful for preventing bursts outside of that. You keep implying that MoD has the immob part baked in. It doesnt.

    I may dislike Mesmer because of how annoying it has the potential to be among other things, but there's no need to touch MoD if it can't instantly snare you anymore.
    And, for the record, I am not advocating nerfing thieves OR warriors. Both of those classes as they stand now are not unbalanced as far as I know. I just think pushing to shave MoD, on its own, unaffected by traits, is silly.

    Thank you for put that right, i start to get super annoyed by ppl mixing things up, everyone can clearly see that he has no clue what he is talking about and i would have a hard time to stay polite to him at this point. Bronze lvl propaganda at its finest. He never touched Mesmer at all not even the lamest build it has i would bet.

    Yknow, the fact that you resort to ad hominems every time someone dismantles your poor arguments makes it kinda clear you arent neutral at all. I even call doubt on your claim that you dont main mesmer. In fact, I think not only do you main Mirage, you dont know how to play anything else, hence why youre so adamant about keeping things as they are.

    You don't need to main Mesmer to know that Mantra of Distraction has no immob and how to counter Mantra and how effective stowing is not only to avoid interrupts. If you feel better when you accuse me of lying than do it. It got clear who has no clue what he is talking about and i showed in several other posts that i have clue about other classes too. It is the forums overdoing hate and exaggerating creating a thread with mesmer complains every 3 days forcing me an all other ppl here to talk about Mesmer all day long.
    Case closed, you disgraced yourself by showing your cluelessness not me and i am out before i say something i have to feel sry for later.

    Given that literally everyone used CI until it got disabled for being so problematic? It basically did. You also repeatedly claimed "Oh you can counter Mantra" and "Oh you can totally avoid instant interrupts", even after I pointed out, repeatedly, that no, you cannot, and no, you CANNOT. The fact that you still argue that you can totally stow cancel to dodge an instant interrupt just makes it clear how little clue you have about anything other than playing Mesmer yourself. But go on, find a good Mesmer, and try stowcancelling to stop interrupts against them. I will make a prediction I can guarantee with 100% certainty. Short of the Mesmer screwing up or lagging, you will manage to avoid 0/100 interrupts. Because thats how likely it is to be able to avoid it. 0%. The second that Mesmer presses the button, youre interrupted. And he will only press the button while youre using a skill. There is no opportunity to stop the interrupt.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    I'm inclined to agree with @bravan.3876 on this.

    MoD on its own is not a problem. if you're on your last legs and the mesmer hasnt burned MoD to try to stop you from eating their HP, then you already lost the fight.
    The synergy with that and CI is too much, because immob on daze can lead to immob locks just like the bugged entangle, that ALSO breaks your attempt to clear the immob if your clear of choice has a cast time.

    on its own, MoD is fine. You can generally tell when the mesmer is going to use it. Itll either be burned trying to stop you from bursting them, or to stop you from healing. You can stow to bait it if you're 1200R away or less, move further, to heal for free, or pressure the mes into a cast to heal. While I think its obnoxious that they can just daze whatever they want, I'm not sure nerfing specifically it is going to help. It may be instant cast, but keep in mind that mesmers are generally slower than thieves and a long range cast may be necessary to interrupt people wanting to leave a fight theyre losing. I bet any nerf that causes them to, say, lose every encounter with warrior because rush/whirl (or swoop) outspeeds Power lock is going to feel really kitten bad.

    You balance CI, and put a projectile tell on Arcane thievery, and I think you can call it a day until the next busted synergy.

    Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time. Unless you mean they are less good at running away, which sure, thats true, but Mesmer doesnt need to run away. Oh and if youre worried that you wont be able to stop a Warrior from running away if they save all their skills to do so? Good. Thieves havent been able to stop that for years, its about time Mesmer cant either.

    " Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time " <----- what ?

    usually 1 dash/blink and swiftness is enaught to run away from mesmer, so preety much every class can do that right now.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2019

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    I'm inclined to agree with @bravan.3876 on this.

    MoD on its own is not a problem. if you're on your last legs and the mesmer hasnt burned MoD to try to stop you from eating their HP, then you already lost the fight.
    The synergy with that and CI is too much, because immob on daze can lead to immob locks just like the bugged entangle, that ALSO breaks your attempt to clear the immob if your clear of choice has a cast time.

    on its own, MoD is fine. You can generally tell when the mesmer is going to use it. Itll either be burned trying to stop you from bursting them, or to stop you from healing. You can stow to bait it if you're 1200R away or less, move further, to heal for free, or pressure the mes into a cast to heal. While I think its obnoxious that they can just daze whatever they want, I'm not sure nerfing specifically it is going to help. It may be instant cast, but keep in mind that mesmers are generally slower than thieves and a long range cast may be necessary to interrupt people wanting to leave a fight theyre losing. I bet any nerf that causes them to, say, lose every encounter with warrior because rush/whirl (or swoop) outspeeds Power lock is going to feel really kitten bad.

    You balance CI, and put a projectile tell on Arcane thievery, and I think you can call it a day until the next busted synergy.

    Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time. Unless you mean they are less good at running away, which sure, thats true, but Mesmer doesnt need to run away. Oh and if youre worried that you wont be able to stop a Warrior from running away if they save all their skills to do so? Good. Thieves havent been able to stop that for years, its about time Mesmer cant either.

    Sips tea
    But if a class is "less good at running away", Then most likely they're slower than the class that is better at running away. Mesmers have no mobility outside of blink/jaunt, Illusion leap and portal. They cant get from point A to B very quickly, and if a class is running away, they need to rely on blink/leap to chase, which have reasonably sized cooldowns. The fact of the matter is that objectively, they are slower than thieves, so it seems reasonable to me that there be slightly more leniency on the situations in which they can use their daze.

    Thieves can also stop warriors disengaging with rush, by the way, and most of their weapon sets allow them to move a substantial distance in a given direction repeatedly.
    I'm digressing though. My point is that MoD has a similar function to headshot, and fills the same purpose, but because the class it is being used on is slower than the class that has headshot, it has a bit more leniency on range and cast time. That on its own, is fine. What is not fine is it being able to set off a chain reaction that leads to a high-uptime snare, just like Pulmonary Impact was not fine in its high damage state when used on thieves that would interrupt their way to a kill.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    The daze will not kill you because you still can dodge all dmg skills will be used together or after it. I never got killed by Mesmer only spamming Mantra and hit autoattacks or even luckily hit a big skill accidently with it. Only well timed interrupts (like getting my heal when i am low already, a Mesmer surviving by interrupting my Chilled to the bones) can make a Powermes using Mantra and only Powerblock win a fight. Most Mesmer i met barely get interrupt vs me with their Mantra (mostly on autoattacks what does nothing wihtout CI). You sound like you never played a Powerblock Powermes with Mantra yourself and that vs ppl are not bronze lvl freekills anyway tbh. You sounds like a totally predictable player complaining about something he has no clue how to play against. What you say about stowing is inefficient and nothing i listed is a counter is just ridiculous.

    It will, because you wont be able to. Youre immobilized, remember? Its basically a DIY stun. Except better since you need a stunbreak that also cleanses condis or removes immobilizing effects. And yes, were talking about Mesmers who time it to interrupt. Theyre the ones that are a problem after all. And no, I have. I know how broken it is from first-hand experience. Its as if I was playing D/P with higher damage, far lower execution barrier and skill required, and far more resilient. And no, it has nothing to do with predictabiltiy. See, being predictable only matters when there is a way to stop the interrupts. Like say, with Headshot. There is no way to stop the interrupts vs Mesmer. Either you use no skills, in which case they kill you for free, or you do, they instantly interrupt it with no counterplay, DIY stun you, and kill you.

    Bravan is right. If you keep the immob out of the equation (keep in mind that immob comes from CI, which is now disabled and will probably not return in its past state), MoD does nothing but instant cast daze you, which is only dangerous when you are healing while low and only useful for preventing bursts outside of that. You keep implying that MoD has the immob part baked in. It doesnt.

    I may dislike Mesmer because of how annoying it has the potential to be among other things, but there's no need to touch MoD if it can't instantly snare you anymore.
    And, for the record, I am not advocating nerfing thieves OR warriors. Both of those classes as they stand now are not unbalanced as far as I know. I just think pushing to shave MoD, on its own, unaffected by traits, is silly.

    Thank you for put that right, i start to get super annoyed by ppl mixing things up, everyone can clearly see that he has no clue what he is talking about and i would have a hard time to stay polite to him at this point. Bronze lvl propaganda at its finest. He never touched Mesmer at all not even the lamest build it has i would bet.

    Yknow, the fact that you resort to ad hominems every time someone dismantles your poor arguments makes it kinda clear you arent neutral at all. I even call doubt on your claim that you dont main mesmer. In fact, I think not only do you main Mirage, you dont know how to play anything else, hence why youre so adamant about keeping things as they are.

    You don't need to main Mesmer to know that Mantra of Distraction has no immob and how to counter Mantra and how effective stowing is not only to avoid interrupts. If you feel better when you accuse me of lying than do it. It got clear who has no clue what he is talking about and i showed in several other posts that i have clue about other classes too. It is the forums overdoing hate and exaggerating creating a thread with mesmer complains every 3 days forcing me an all other ppl here to talk about Mesmer all day long.
    Case closed, you disgraced yourself by showing your cluelessness not me and i am out before i say something i have to feel sry for later.

    Given that literally everyone used CI until it got disabled for being so problematic? It basically did. You also repeatedly claimed "Oh you can counter Mantra" and "Oh you can totally avoid instant interrupts", even after I pointed out, repeatedly, that no, you cannot, and no, you CANNOT. The fact that you still argue that you can totally stow cancel to dodge an instant interrupt just makes it clear how little clue you have about anything other than playing Mesmer yourself. But go on, find a good Mesmer, and try stowcancelling to stop interrupts against them. I will make a prediction I can guarantee with 100% certainty. Short of the Mesmer screwing up or lagging, you will manage to avoid 0/100 interrupts. Because thats how likely it is to be able to avoid it. 0%. The second that Mesmer presses the button, youre interrupted. And he will only press the button while youre using a skill. There is no opportunity to stop the interrupt.

    You stamp with your foot like a 3 years old and saying no it has no counter because you say so and all counters i mentioned are not existing in your world doesn't make it true. If you wanna stay bad and not learn and adapt anything than that is up to you ofc. I am not the one getting rekt by Powermesmers. As said bronze lvl. I am out hf!

    It is just funny btw that all mesmer mains in this forum often accused me to be one of the mesmer haters... i think that says everything about my real position in this discussion.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    I'm inclined to agree with @bravan.3876 on this.

    MoD on its own is not a problem. if you're on your last legs and the mesmer hasnt burned MoD to try to stop you from eating their HP, then you already lost the fight.
    The synergy with that and CI is too much, because immob on daze can lead to immob locks just like the bugged entangle, that ALSO breaks your attempt to clear the immob if your clear of choice has a cast time.

    on its own, MoD is fine. You can generally tell when the mesmer is going to use it. Itll either be burned trying to stop you from bursting them, or to stop you from healing. You can stow to bait it if you're 1200R away or less, move further, to heal for free, or pressure the mes into a cast to heal. While I think its obnoxious that they can just daze whatever they want, I'm not sure nerfing specifically it is going to help. It may be instant cast, but keep in mind that mesmers are generally slower than thieves and a long range cast may be necessary to interrupt people wanting to leave a fight theyre losing. I bet any nerf that causes them to, say, lose every encounter with warrior because rush/whirl (or swoop) outspeeds Power lock is going to feel really kitten bad.

    You balance CI, and put a projectile tell on Arcane thievery, and I think you can call it a day until the next busted synergy.

    Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time. Unless you mean they are less good at running away, which sure, thats true, but Mesmer doesnt need to run away. Oh and if youre worried that you wont be able to stop a Warrior from running away if they save all their skills to do so? Good. Thieves havent been able to stop that for years, its about time Mesmer cant either.

    Sips tea
    But if a class is "less good at running away", Then most likely they're slower than the class that is better at running away. Mesmers have no mobility outside of blink/jaunt, Illusion leap and portal. They cant get from point A to B very quickly, and if a class is running away, they need to rely on blink/leap to chase, which have reasonably sized cooldowns. The fact of the matter is that objectively, they are slower than thieves, so it seems reasonable to me that there be slightly more leniency on the situations in which they can use their daze.

    Thieves can also stop warriors disengaging with rush, by the way, and most of their weapon sets allow them to move a substantial distance in a given direction repeatedly.
    I'm digressing though. My point is that MoD has a similar function to headshot, and fills the same purpose, but because the class it is being used on is slower than the class that has headshot, it has a bit more leniency on range and cast time. That on its own, is fine. What is not fine is it being able to set off a chain reaction that leads to a high-uptime snare, just like Pulmonary Impact was not fine in its high damage state when used on thieves that would interrupt their way to a kill.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    The daze will not kill you because you still can dodge all dmg skills will be used together or after it. I never got killed by Mesmer only spamming Mantra and hit autoattacks or even luckily hit a big skill accidently with it. Only well timed interrupts (like getting my heal when i am low already, a Mesmer surviving by interrupting my Chilled to the bones) can make a Powermes using Mantra and only Powerblock win a fight. Most Mesmer i met barely get interrupt vs me with their Mantra (mostly on autoattacks what does nothing wihtout CI). You sound like you never played a Powerblock Powermes with Mantra yourself and that vs ppl are not bronze lvl freekills anyway tbh. You sounds like a totally predictable player complaining about something he has no clue how to play against. What you say about stowing is inefficient and nothing i listed is a counter is just ridiculous.

    It will, because you wont be able to. Youre immobilized, remember? Its basically a DIY stun. Except better since you need a stunbreak that also cleanses condis or removes immobilizing effects. And yes, were talking about Mesmers who time it to interrupt. Theyre the ones that are a problem after all. And no, I have. I know how broken it is from first-hand experience. Its as if I was playing D/P with higher damage, far lower execution barrier and skill required, and far more resilient. And no, it has nothing to do with predictabiltiy. See, being predictable only matters when there is a way to stop the interrupts. Like say, with Headshot. There is no way to stop the interrupts vs Mesmer. Either you use no skills, in which case they kill you for free, or you do, they instantly interrupt it with no counterplay, DIY stun you, and kill you.

    Bravan is right. If you keep the immob out of the equation (keep in mind that immob comes from CI, which is now disabled and will probably not return in its past state), MoD does nothing but instant cast daze you, which is only dangerous when you are healing while low and only useful for preventing bursts outside of that. You keep implying that MoD has the immob part baked in. It doesnt.

    I may dislike Mesmer because of how annoying it has the potential to be among other things, but there's no need to touch MoD if it can't instantly snare you anymore.
    And, for the record, I am not advocating nerfing thieves OR warriors. Both of those classes as they stand now are not unbalanced as far as I know. I just think pushing to shave MoD, on its own, unaffected by traits, is silly.

    Thank you for put that right, i start to get super annoyed by ppl mixing things up, everyone can clearly see that he has no clue what he is talking about and i would have a hard time to stay polite to him at this point. Bronze lvl propaganda at its finest. He never touched Mesmer at all not even the lamest build it has i would bet.

    Yknow, the fact that you resort to ad hominems every time someone dismantles your poor arguments makes it kinda clear you arent neutral at all. I even call doubt on your claim that you dont main mesmer. In fact, I think not only do you main Mirage, you dont know how to play anything else, hence why youre so adamant about keeping things as they are.

    You don't need to main Mesmer to know that Mantra of Distraction has no immob and how to counter Mantra and how effective stowing is not only to avoid interrupts. If you feel better when you accuse me of lying than do it. It got clear who has no clue what he is talking about and i showed in several other posts that i have clue about other classes too. It is the forums overdoing hate and exaggerating creating a thread with mesmer complains every 3 days forcing me an all other ppl here to talk about Mesmer all day long.
    Case closed, you disgraced yourself by showing your cluelessness not me and i am out before i say something i have to feel sry for later.

    Given that literally everyone used CI until it got disabled for being so problematic? It basically did. You also repeatedly claimed "Oh you can counter Mantra" and "Oh you can totally avoid instant interrupts", even after I pointed out, repeatedly, that no, you cannot, and no, you CANNOT. The fact that you still argue that you can totally stow cancel to dodge an instant interrupt just makes it clear how little clue you have about anything other than playing Mesmer yourself. But go on, find a good Mesmer, and try stowcancelling to stop interrupts against them. I will make a prediction I can guarantee with 100% certainty. Short of the Mesmer screwing up or lagging, you will manage to avoid 0/100 interrupts. Because thats how likely it is to be able to avoid it. 0%. The second that Mesmer presses the button, youre interrupted. And he will only press the button while youre using a skill. There is no opportunity to stop the interrupt.

    You stamp with your foot like a 3 years old and saying no it has no counter because you say so and all counters i mentioned are not existing in your world doesn't make it true. If you wanna stay bad and not learn and adapt anything than that is up to you ofc. I am not the one getting rekt by Powermesmers. As said bronze lvl. I am out hf!

    I already pointed out that what you mentioned arent "counters". What you mentioned could be boiled down to, quite literally, "dont fight the Mesmer". The only exception being Stability. Which would work fine, if Mesmer didnt have boonrip to just get rid of it. Unfortunately, they do. So even that doesnt work. In your analogy, you are the 3 year old repeating the same thing over and over even after its been calmly and thoroughly explained to you that its wrong, and why its wrong. Its not gonna change just because you say it even more.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    I'm inclined to agree with @bravan.3876 on this.

    MoD on its own is not a problem. if you're on your last legs and the mesmer hasnt burned MoD to try to stop you from eating their HP, then you already lost the fight.
    The synergy with that and CI is too much, because immob on daze can lead to immob locks just like the bugged entangle, that ALSO breaks your attempt to clear the immob if your clear of choice has a cast time.

    on its own, MoD is fine. You can generally tell when the mesmer is going to use it. Itll either be burned trying to stop you from bursting them, or to stop you from healing. You can stow to bait it if you're 1200R away or less, move further, to heal for free, or pressure the mes into a cast to heal. While I think its obnoxious that they can just daze whatever they want, I'm not sure nerfing specifically it is going to help. It may be instant cast, but keep in mind that mesmers are generally slower than thieves and a long range cast may be necessary to interrupt people wanting to leave a fight theyre losing. I bet any nerf that causes them to, say, lose every encounter with warrior because rush/whirl (or swoop) outspeeds Power lock is going to feel really kitten bad.

    You balance CI, and put a projectile tell on Arcane thievery, and I think you can call it a day until the next busted synergy.

    Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time. Unless you mean they are less good at running away, which sure, thats true, but Mesmer doesnt need to run away. Oh and if youre worried that you wont be able to stop a Warrior from running away if they save all their skills to do so? Good. Thieves havent been able to stop that for years, its about time Mesmer cant either.

    " Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time " <----- what ?

    usually 1 dash/blink and swiftness is enaught to run away from mesmer, so preety much every class can do that right now.

    Thats not been true ever since Mirage was around. They also have that blink in, well, blink. They also have 2 jaunts. And they have superspeed on demand that beats your swiftness. And repeatable 600 unit dashes. Youre not getting away from Mesmers unless you have a lot of mobility.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2019

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    Eh, not quite. Thief is good at running away because you can simply stealth up, move away from the enemy while theyre not sure where you are, and depending on the gamemode either go for a decap, or mount up and just run away.

    True. Keep this in mind.

    Mesmers options for long-term stealth are more limited. Theyre good at oneshotting out of stealth. Not so good at running away thanks to stealth. Now, as for your examples, saying that "Mesmer have no mobility outside of the best long-distance teleportation spell, essentially thieves shadowstep on a much shorter cooldown, a lesser thieves shadowstep on a lower cooldown, and a skill that lets them transform dodges into fast long-range dashes". Is like saying "Scourge has no boon transformation outside the 3 skills they have that transform boons". And you forgot to mention that Mirage effectively gets Superspeed while in Mirage Cloak.

    Beeecause they don't get superspeed. Not anymore. Not that a 1 second spike of movement speed for spending a dodge is something I would weigh in terms of mobility.

    And I guess the sword ambush attack. So no, objectively they arent slower.

    They're slower, and you prove it below. Keep in mind I am bringing up the mesmer's speed in getting from point A to point B to explain that MOD is balanced because they have less access to things that could put them in a position to capitalize on Mantra of Distraction's interrupt as compared to thief and its headshot, which is accepted as balanced.

    In fact, I would argue theyre generally faster. The big advantage thief has, and the reason theyre still better decap bots is the nature of their movement. Thieves primarily move around the map with shortbow 5. Being a blink, this means thieves handle elevation much better. Mesmer only has Blink for moving up large distances, as Jaunt is too short, and the sword ambush skill is just vertical movement. Thieves are better at horizontal movement, and for sPvP decap purposes thats better. For the purposes of catching up with people? It isnt. Its actually worse. Unless they are a thief, because noone else handles elevation well either, at which point it doesnt matter either way. Thief is good at not fighting after all.

    Why are you separating thieves ability to move vertically much more frequently than mesmers from consideration in how mobile they are? That should also be considered. All use methods of thief ports and their stealth movement, as it relates to moving to any specific point in the map that is normally accessible, should be considered in terms of their mobility.

    Thieves aren't good at fighting. That is true. But that fact has no bearing on whether MoD needs a nerf. What does have a bearing on whether MoD needs a nerf are the use cases it applies to, across all of the specifications that can access it. Keep in mind any changes made to MOD will potentially affect EVERY mesmer build, now and in the future.

    As for whether thieves are faster your argument basically goes:

    *Thieves are good at scaling elevations faster
    *And thieves are better at horizontal movement
    *but these dont make them better at catching up with people, because other people dont have vertical blinks.

    To which I say, blink up a cliff after a warrior uses the stairs and see if you can catch him.

    They cannot. Something youd know if you played Warrior in WvW for 10 minutes. Its honestly sad to see the poor thieves just struggle to keep up only to fail anyway in the end. And no, the only weaponset that does is shortbow 5. The rest of the weapons are actually terrible at moving distances, Sword can no longer do the fake backport so its out, Rifles teleport is just bad, and if youre already out of range all D/P has is Heartseeker, which is honestly just a sad skill nowadays.

    This is the PVP forum, unfortunately I do not play in WvW because class balancing is nonexistent there. roaming isn't fun there anymore. Sorry, I got something in my sarcasm.

    Steal, Sword 2, swiftness on steal, and shortbow will let me keep pace with any low health warrior, as long as I want. Any rushes can be disabled with headshot. I only consider this as it relates to conquest because this is the PvP forum and WvW is a different, very pitiable beast.

    So, now that we have established that the class its being used on is in fact faster, not slower, does that change your mindset? How about the fact that Mesmer also has vastly superior defensive and offensive capabilities? Youd imagine that the class that is great at fighting either way would at least be worse at stopping the enemy from hitting their big hits than the class thats pretty bad at it. But no, because thats how it goes apparently.

    We haven't established that Mesmer is faster. See above. And because they have less chase than thieves, who have an almost instant interrupt that allows them to shut down escapes/heals, it remains reasonable that mesmers having an interrupt that allows them to do the same should be considerate of that.

    Mesmer has superior offensive and defensive capabilities if they run specifically condi mirage. Power mirage, Power Chrono, and Core Mes are all more balanced, and any nerf to MoD nerfs all of those classes. With CI gone, Condi mirage is also significantly weaker, and they are now considering running bunker. I understand the instadaze is annoying, but nerfing it for whatever reason you are nerfing it (If it is because of instant cast daze, are you okay with headshot being nerfed, since they fit the same use case? If it is because of Immob, are you aware the trait that makes it immob you is gone?) breaks too many interactions, and the synergy that made it really strong has already been disabled. If you're fine with headshot as is, you should be fine with MoD.

    Also, while this mostly applies to traits, I've said it a million times, if there is a problem with a spec overperforming, nerf the spec, not the core pieces of the class. People keep pushing for this whenever there's a class they don't like. I don't understand. You're risking breaking every power mes spec over an instant daze, which is only useful in a few situations on its own.

    Also again, I am not advocating nerfing anything right now. CI was the only problem that made mirages toxic levels of annoying, as far as I can tell.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    Eh, not quite. Thief is good at running away because you can simply stealth up, move away from the enemy while theyre not sure where you are, and depending on the gamemode either go for a decap, or mount up and just run away.

    True. Keep this in mind.

    Mesmers options for long-term stealth are more limited. Theyre good at oneshotting out of stealth. Not so good at running away thanks to stealth. Now, as for your examples, saying that "Mesmer have no mobility outside of the best long-distance teleportation spell, essentially thieves shadowstep on a much shorter cooldown, a lesser thieves shadowstep on a lower cooldown, and a skill that lets them transform dodges into fast long-range dashes". Is like saying "Scourge has no boon transformation outside the 3 skills they have that transform boons". And you forgot to mention that Mirage effectively gets Superspeed while in Mirage Cloak.

    Beeecause they don't get superspeed. Not anymore. Not that a 1 second spike of movement speed for spending a dodge is something I would weigh in terms of mobility.

    And I guess the sword ambush attack. So no, objectively they arent slower.

    They're slower, and you prove it below. Keep in mind I am bringing up the mesmer's speed in getting from point A to point B to explain that MOD is balanced because they have less access to things that could put them in a position to capitalize on Mantra of Distraction's interrupt as compared to thief and its headshot, which is accepted as balanced.

    In fact, I would argue theyre generally faster. The big advantage thief has, and the reason theyre still better decap bots is the nature of their movement. Thieves primarily move around the map with shortbow 5. Being a blink, this means thieves handle elevation much better. Mesmer only has Blink for moving up large distances, as Jaunt is too short, and the sword ambush skill is just vertical movement. Thieves are better at horizontal movement, and for sPvP decap purposes thats better. For the purposes of catching up with people? It isnt. Its actually worse. Unless they are a thief, because noone else handles elevation well either, at which point it doesnt matter either way. Thief is good at not fighting after all.

    Why are you separating thieves ability to move vertically much more frequently than mesmers from consideration in how mobile they are? That should also be considered.
    Thieves aren't good at fighting. That is true. But that fact has no bearing on whether MoD needs a nerf. What does have a bearing on whether MoD needs a nerf are the use cases it applies to, across all of the specifications that can access it. Keep in mind any changes made to MOD will potentially affect EVERY mesmer build, now and in the future.

    As for whether thieves are faster your argument basically goes:

    *Thieves are good at scaling elevations faster
    *And thieves are better at horizontal movement
    *but these dont make them better at catching up with people, because other people dont have vertical blinks.

    To which I say, blink up a cliff after a warrior uses the stairs and see if you can catch him.

    They cannot. Something youd know if you played Warrior in WvW for 10 minutes. Its honestly sad to see the poor thieves just struggle to keep up only to fail anyway in the end. And no, the only weaponset that does is shortbow 5. The rest of the weapons are actually terrible at moving distances, Sword can no longer do the fake backport so its out, Rifles teleport is just bad, and if youre already out of range all D/P has is Heartseeker, which is honestly just a sad skill nowadays.

    This is the PVP forum, unfortunately I do not play in WvW because class balancing is nonexistent there. roaming isn't fun there anymore. Sorry, I got something in my sarcasm.

    Steal, Sword 2, swiftness on steal, and shortbow will let me keep pace with any low health warrior, as long as I want. Any rushes can be disabled with headshot. I only consider this as it relates to conquest because this is the PvP forum and WvW is a different, very pitiable beast.

    So, now that we have established that the class its being used on is in fact faster, not slower, does that change your mindset? How about the fact that Mesmer also has vastly superior defensive and offensive capabilities? Youd imagine that the class that is great at fighting either way would at least be worse at stopping the enemy from hitting their big hits than the class thats pretty bad at it. But no, because thats how it goes apparently.

    We haven't established that Mesmer is faster. See above. And because they have less chase than thieves, who have an almost instant interrupt that allows them to shut down escapes/heals, it remains reasonable that mesmers having an interrupt that allows them to do the same should be considerate of that.

    Mesmer has superior offensive and defensive capabilities if they run specifically condi mirage. Power mirage, Power Chrono, and Core Mes are all more balanced, and any nerf to MoD nerfs all of those classes. With CI gone, Condi mirage is also significantly weaker, and they are now considering running bunker. I understand the instadaze is annoying, but it breaks too many interactions, and the synergy that made it really strong has already been disabled. If you're fine with headshot as is, you should be fine with MoD. I've said it a million times, if there is a problem with a spec overperforming, nerf the spec, not the core of the class.

    Well, I did say "effectively". Though, now that I looked up the math, I am in fact off by a bit. Its slightly slower than superspeed, but still really really fast. And I would. Because it makes every Mirage Cloak give you 150 extra units of distance. Which you get a lot of. Its not much, but its noticable. Its certainly more than Thieves Swiftness.

    No, I dont. And remember, your original argument was specifically "Mesmer needs instant interrupts so that enemies wont just run away from them". This'll be important in just a bit.

    Because the original context was running enemies, and I alluded to the details. The thing is, when an enemy is running away, the vertical mobility only matters if the enemy that is running away is gonna be using it to escape. Here is the thing. There is 1 class in the game that actually has more vertical mobility than Mesmer. Thief. The problem is, even a thief wont be able to stop a thief from running away once they have managed to get to that stage. A thief can only stop it by bursting the thief down before he can run away. Something Mesmer is considerably better at. So in the only situation in which vertical mobility could matter ... it doesnt. Thats why Mesmers are in fact faster not slower. As for your example, blinking up one slope is something Mesmer can do. Multiple slopes is where it matters. And while the idea of a Warrior running up the stairs, only for a Mesmer to appear in front of them, so they run up the stairs again while the Mesmer sit arounds is comical, its not going to happen.

    They wont. Sword 2's Fake backport is disabled. It lets you get ontop of an enemy once, but after that you have to wait a long time just to be able to port again once. Only to wait again. The swiftness is just again, a considerably worse version of Mesmers semi-superspeed. It also doesnt help that much seeing how since Warrior actually has a baseline 25% speedboost, and likely has swiftness himself, you will be running slower. Oh and you cant interrupt his main mobility skill, whirlwind attack since it evades. Youll be able to stop the Rush perhaps, but by then the Warrior is looooong gone. And thats assuming he didnt just give himself quickness to rush out of headshot range before you can stop it. Because Warrior builds nowadays tend to do that.

    They have less chase than thieves in every scenario that doesnt involve someone porting up 2 cliffs back to back. Which only thief can do. Which even another thief cant keep up with. So they have more chase in only one super-narrow situation that doesnt matter 1 bit. In normal situations they have more chase. So given that, youd expect their interrupt to be worse at stopping escaping enemies. Instead its so much better its not even funny.

    The difference is Headshot isnt instant, doesnt daze for 1.5 seconds and can actually be countered. If MoD had a cast time, or dazed for 0.25 seconds, or better both, the analogy would work. As it is, its just headshot on crack on a class that should have worse interrupts.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2019

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    Well, I did say "effectively".

    squints
    ....Fine, you pass.

    Though, now that I looked up the math, I am in fact off by a bit. Its slightly slower than superspeed, but still really really fast. And I would. Because it makes every Mirage Cloak give you 150 extra units of distance. Which you get a lot of. Its not much, but its noticable. Its certainly more than Thieves Swiftness.

    I wouldn't say that, but I'm also not willing to go test it for this argument right now, so very well, we can consider it in this.

    No, I dont. And remember, your original argument was specifically "Mesmer needs instant interrupts so that enemies wont just run away from them". This'll be important in just a bit.

    Because the original context was running enemies, and I alluded to the details. The thing is, when an enemy is running away, the vertical mobility only matters if the enemy that is running away is gonna be using it to escape. Here is the thing. There is 1 class in the game that actually has more vertical mobility than Mesmer. Thief. The problem is, even a thief wont be able to stop a thief from running away once they have managed to get to that stage. A thief can only stop it by bursting the thief down before he can run away. Something Mesmer is considerably better at. So in the only situation in which vertical mobility could matter ... it doesnt. Thats why Mesmers are in fact faster not slower. As for your example, blinking up one slope is something Mesmer can do. Multiple slopes is where it matters. And while the idea of a Warrior running up the stairs, only for a Mesmer to appear in front of them, so they run up the stairs again while the Mesmer sit arounds is comical, its not going to happen.

    It is something mesmer can do, but they have less access to the mechanic pool that would allow them to do this, as compared to thief. If a mesmer has just used a blink for a stunbreak and a warrior bails, they have less chase in that situation. At any point in a skirmish, a thief has generally more options to traverse terrain on a shorter cooldown, is what I am trying to get at. Because of that, it seems right to me to have an interrupt that is counterable/weaker as you mentioned below, but can still break disengage attempts/heals.

    They wont. Sword 2's Fake backport is disabled. It lets you get ontop of an enemy once, but after that you have to wait a long time just to be able to port again once. Only to wait again. The swiftness is just again, a considerably worse version of Mesmers semi-superspeed. It also doesnt help that much seeing how since Warrior actually has a baseline 25% speedboost, and likely has swiftness himself, you will be running slower. Oh and you cant interrupt his main mobility skill, whirlwind attack since it evades. Youll be able to stop the Rush perhaps, but by then the Warrior is looooong gone. And thats assuming he didnt just give himself quickness to rush out of headshot range before you can stop it. Because Warrior builds nowadays tend to do that.

    What warrior runs frenzy nowadays digression but valid points.

    They have less chase than thieves in every scenario that doesnt involve someone porting up 2 cliffs back to back. Which only thief can do. Which even another thief cant keep up with. So they have more chase in only one super-narrow situation that doesnt matter 1 bit. In normal situations they have more chase. So given that, youd expect their interrupt to be worse at stopping escaping enemies. Instead its so much better its not even funny.

    The difference is Headshot isnt instant, doesnt daze for 1.5 seconds and can actually be countered. If MoD had a cast time, or dazed for 0.25 seconds, or better both, the analogy would work. As it is, its just headshot on crack on a class that should have worse interrupts.

    What you are saying is true. I'm not entirely convinced because I think that, across most fight scenarios, MoD as it is now would cover the mobility discrepancy that you do not agree exists, but I respect the argument nonetheless. I still don't think it is causing a stark overperformance and thus absolutely needs a nerf for the reasons stated above (which I can see the rationale behind btw), but very well~

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2019

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    Well, I did say "effectively".

    squints
    ....Fine, you pass.

    Though, now that I looked up the math, I am in fact off by a bit. Its slightly slower than superspeed, but still really really fast. And I would. Because it makes every Mirage Cloak give you 150 extra units of distance. Which you get a lot of. Its not much, but its noticable. Its certainly more than Thieves Swiftness.

    I wouldn't say that, but I'm also not willing to go test it for this argument right now, so very well, we can consider it in this.

    No, I dont. And remember, your original argument was specifically "Mesmer needs instant interrupts so that enemies wont just run away from them". This'll be important in just a bit.

    Because the original context was running enemies, and I alluded to the details. The thing is, when an enemy is running away, the vertical mobility only matters if the enemy that is running away is gonna be using it to escape. Here is the thing. There is 1 class in the game that actually has more vertical mobility than Mesmer. Thief. The problem is, even a thief wont be able to stop a thief from running away once they have managed to get to that stage. A thief can only stop it by bursting the thief down before he can run away. Something Mesmer is considerably better at. So in the only situation in which vertical mobility could matter ... it doesnt. Thats why Mesmers are in fact faster not slower. As for your example, blinking up one slope is something Mesmer can do. Multiple slopes is where it matters. And while the idea of a Warrior running up the stairs, only for a Mesmer to appear in front of them, so they run up the stairs again while the Mesmer sit arounds is comical, its not going to happen.

    It is something mesmer can do, but they have less access to the mechanic pool that would allow them to do this, as compared to thief. If a mesmer has just used a blink for a stunbreak and a warrior bails, they have less chase in that situation. At any point in a skirmish, a thief has more options to traverse terrain on a shorter cooldown, is what I am trying to get at. Because of that, it seems right to me to have an interrupt that is counterable/weaker as you mentioned below, but can still break disengage attempts/heals.

    They wont. Sword 2's Fake backport is disabled. It lets you get ontop of an enemy once, but after that you have to wait a long time just to be able to port again once. Only to wait again. The swiftness is just again, a considerably worse version of Mesmers semi-superspeed. It also doesnt help that much seeing how since Warrior actually has a baseline 25% speedboost, and likely has swiftness himself, you will be running slower. Oh and you cant interrupt his main mobility skill, whirlwind attack since it evades. Youll be able to stop the Rush perhaps, but by then the Warrior is looooong gone. And thats assuming he didnt just give himself quickness to rush out of headshot range before you can stop it. Because Warrior builds nowadays tend to do that.

    What warrior runs frenzy nowadays digression but valid points.

    They have less chase than thieves in every scenario that doesnt involve someone porting up 2 cliffs back to back. Which only thief can do. Which even another thief cant keep up with. So they have more chase in only one super-narrow situation that doesnt matter 1 bit. In normal situations they have more chase. So given that, youd expect their interrupt to be worse at stopping escaping enemies. Instead its so much better its not even funny.

    The difference is Headshot isnt instant, doesnt daze for 1.5 seconds and can actually be countered. If MoD had a cast time, or dazed for 0.25 seconds, or better both, the analogy would work. As it is, its just headshot on crack on a class that should have worse interrupts.

    What you are saying is true. I'm not entirely convinced because I think that, across most fight scenarios, MoD as it is now would cover the mobility discrepancy that you do not agree exists, but I respect the argument nonetheless. I still don't think it is causing a stark overperformance and thus absolutely needs a nerf for the reasons stated above (which I can see the rationale behind btw), but very well~

    In the same sense, if the Thief just used Initiative for the fight (which, you would imagine they do given that they need to use initiative if theyre doing anything other than autoattack), they might not have the 6 initiative for shortbow 5. In fact, as far as situations go, thats actually a fair bit more likely than blink having been used up, especially if the enemy got hurt so much theyre having to retreat now. Even then, a warrior wont be able to get stairs up particularly quickly, and unlike thief who just had to use up initiative to have no chase at all, Mesmer just needs dodges for the sword ambush, any jaunt charges, or any way to get mirage cloak to be able to chase after a warrior. So really, at any point in the skirmish that doesnt involve the thief sitting on their full pool of initiative while the Mesmer expends everything, the Mesmer has more chase.

    Edit: To the Frenzy point, a surprising amount. But they also run the sigil that gives quickness on weapon swap on GS, so thats the more likely one.

    Honestly the main nerf I would propose, giving it a cast time like headshot, is just for the sake of counterplay and removing unfun scenarios. It sucks that Mesmer can both blast you to bits with their high damage while also, at the same time, stopping both counterattacks and defenses. Usually when classes go all out, theyre either vulnerable to being stopped, or you can avoid the damage then launch a counterassault. With Mesmer its a bit more tricky.

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2019

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Daishi.6027 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Before I say this, know that I am one of the people who said on several occasions: "That I didn't think CI Mantra Condis was as OP as people claimed." but if you're talking about people complaining about MOD specifically, you should consider this:

    Consider playing other classes, where CCing someone and interrupting a skill, requires chasing them with a melee weapon and actually connecting with it. Consider it requires significant effort to hit with a Skull Grinder or an Earth Shaker or a Reaper #5. All of these types of CCs have obvious tells, the animations are long, and they are obviously inc when a melee character is riding you in melee, so people know when to "be ready" to engage and counter play other such CCs.

    MOD on the other hand, is an instant cast CC and an instant strike nonetheless. It requires no cast time and no projectile travel time, such as a Headshot or a Ranger LB #4. A Mesmer can stand 1200 range outside of a team fight, and freely CC assist vs. any target that he chooses, leaving absolutely no room for visual counter play on the part of the player's he is focusing.

    This is why people complain about MOD. It has less counter play than even the old unblockable Death's Judgement man. That's just obnoxious.

    Although there is strength in this, and personally I'm not super fond of MoD, and I do think the game would be better without it simply because I do not find that form of gameplay healthy. I contest the idea that it is to much and to strong for the amount given and that it doesn't reach at least a similar standard to other skills like headshot, which although is closer, is instant with a fast enough travel speed that you need to somewhat read it to avoid it.

    2 dazes either every 14+ seconds (a few of those seconds requiring an active charge) or 1 daze every 15 seconds is not an unsubstantial, or inconsequential limitation, when compared to other classes who although don't have the same CC methods; do have more direct offensive or defensive methods. Locking down and CC was intentionally supposed to be part of the design and we never ran into issues with power.

    If you are spamming this from 1200 away that is annoying for sure, but no one should be left to free cast anyways, and when done so could be problematic for your team regardless.

    We only ran into issues when people could put torment so people couldn't run.
    Confusion so people couldn't use skills.
    Then Interrupts in between that along with cover condis, also immobilized targets.
    Also with amulets that give expertise and a defensive stat making it decently able to sustain and it's damage had passive ramp thanks to illusions.

    CI and MoD only became a problem with condi

    There were in my opinion, a few things that when synergized, created the issue with it being "a bit over the top"

    1. Like you said, it was only a problem with condi. With power shatter builds, the damage bursts are very telegraphed and slow & cumbersome. In this case, MOD is fine and I would dare say that Power Shatter builds actually need it, in its current state mechanically. But when we are talking condi attrition, blowing off a ton of random ambush damage from clone spam auto attacks, this level of instant CC starts to become a bit much when it is virtually impossible to avoid all the clone damage to begin with, even before getting targeted with additional CC.
    2. So now a Mirage is running condi with MOD, and then it lays CI on top of that. As you already said, amulets providing expertise makes the immobilization crazy ridiculous. Normally I wouldn't think this was an issue. Normally I wouldn't be concerned with how expertise effects immobilization, even on Ranger Immob spam builds. But against a Condi Mirage, which is spamming small & very frequent condi applications 100% of the time during engagement, players must cycle through condi cleanses as often as they can. So the condi cleanses that would normally be saved to escape something like a 3s Immob, are rarely available to use for that 3s Immob, because they have to be spammed as often as possible to even stay engaged with the clone attrition + Mirage direct damage. If the bulk of the Mirage's kill damage came at the same time as its burst + Immob, it wouldn't be so difficult to maintain CDs and use them to clear all of those effects at once. This is however not the case. All the Mirage has to do is understand the meta and know when he has burnt out most of the opponent's CDs of condi cleanses and stunbreaks, and then lay down the MOD/CI burst = dead opponent. If the opponent cannot kill the Mirage before the Mirage baits the first cycle of CDs, it is impossible to counter play past that point, and the Mirage's opponent will surely lose the 1v1.
    3. Now even on a Core Mes, all of the above ^ still isn't really OP. The thing that synergizes too well with the above, is still Infinite Horizon and condi builds having too much damage off clones from IH and the innate mechanics of Mirage Cloak in general. When the Mirage & its clones can attack you with ambush skills while simultaneously dodging, while also popping off instant CC skills to boot, things start to get a bit messed up. To be able to take that many actions on other classes, requires decision making. "Should I CC first, and then attack, and then dodge roll?" "Should I just double dodge roll in and then attack and then CC and follow up with attack?" "I'm getting low on resources, maybe I should just roll around defensively now instead of trying to attack?" Mirage on the other hand, can quite seriously always do it all, all of the time, all at once. <- This is what makes it so strong in the hands of experienced players. They are able to avoid the punishment of choosing to take the wrong actions at the wrong time. Strong Mirage players, as long as they have resources left, are able to instantly dodge roll while still maintaining attack and while still having the option to instant CC to assist in a burst or to stop a burst, at any $%^&ing time they so choose, because it's all instant and can overlap in animations/actions taken, due to no cast times and attacking while dodging at the same time. This is enormously powerful when wielded by more experienced players. The tactical advantages that this grants knowledgeable players with good reflexes is too much on Condi Mirage builds. Again, I dare say that both Mirage Cloak and Infinite Horizon are fine on Power Shatter builds, they need it actually. On condi however, it's busted.

    Really in my opinion, I think the core of the issue is the same problem that Mirage Condi has always had, and that is that the ambush damage rolling off of clones is just way too high and too frequent of application. I had started running this build before I took my leave of absence, in both spvp and wvw. I'd like to point out that I'm a bad Mesmer player and very inexperienced on the class. But on this build, I was able to get away with being a bad Mesmer player. All I had to do was create a kitten load of clones and then play 100% defensively as my clones tore apart opponents each and every time I used a dodge roll. Then of course, being an experienced player in general who knows the meta, when I'd see a player trying to disengage a bit for a heal cycle, I'd just get real aggressive with the CCs to interrupt it and by that time they were in the danger zone and ripe to die, in absolutely no position to counter play or get aggressive with my Mirage. I noticed that the build was terrible in team fights when focused, but in 1v1 situations you could bait anything into death if it was goofy enough to stay and fight you.

    Just gonna say it one more time: I really believe the core underlying problem here, after actually running this build for awhile, is not CI or MOD. The core issue is that ambush damage off of clones with IH is just too high while running Mirage Condi. Chaith had made a comment awhile back, something like: "At some point with Mirage, Mesmers had become like a Turret Engi." I agree, that's exactly what it feels like. With Condi Mirage variants, it doesn't even really reward proper Shattering anymore, but rather it rewards setting up a kitten load of clones and letting them machine gun down anyone who stays in the area while the Mirage plays 100% defensively. This kind of gameplay is not healthy, regardless of if someone believes it is OP or not.

    I concur with most if not all of this. I just really wish power would stop having to suffer for the sins of condi, and that A-net would fix the problem with condi in the first place the first time, and not go down an entirely ridiculous pattern of nerfs that hurt both builds while the main issues that made condi mirage so strong lingered and power just got more and more clunky.

    I agree with what is essentially a "pvp ban" because of the context of the meta and the health of the game, honestly I wish they would do this more often. What I disagree with is the standard in which a-net approaches everything that culminated to this spot.

    Mesmer is mesmer, people are going to complain about it regardless of it's strength and viability. But that means it's on a-net even more to focus on the main issues, that many of us have pointed out to be apparent from the start, instead of the people who are going to complain no matter what. So many have pointed out that Condi alone was the issue and yet a-net took swings and made "trade offs" where they didn't belong, and that is a standard so far only imposed on mesmer and it's elite specs.

    While condi is finally vulnerable enough to hit, and kill when it's playing full defensive and no longer (almost) passively win; now power is mediocre at best.
    That was quite the casualty to reach this spot when all they had to do was reduce the output and make it on par with power.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2019

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Honestly the main nerf I would propose, giving it a cast time like headshot, is just for the sake of counterplay and removing unfun scenarios. It sucks that Mesmer can both blast you to bits with their high damage while also, at the same time, stopping both counterattacks and defenses. Usually when classes go all out, theyre either vulnerable to being stopped, or you can avoid the damage then launch a counterassault. With Mesmer its a bit more tricky.

    Will you stop lie to yourself at least? Daze doesnt prevent "any kind of defense", power mesmer burst isnt "oneshot" unless you go afk and eat everything being thrown at you,literally to die you have to eat every single skill from berserk mesmer.
    Thief mains that hard counter any kind of power mesmer complain about it... Ever tried to learn to play?

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    " Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time " <----- what ?

    Thats not been true ever since Mirage was around. They also have that blink in, well, blink. They also have 2 jaunts. And they have superspeed on demand that beats your swiftness. And repeatable 600 unit dashes. Youre not getting away from Mesmers unless you have a lot of mobility.

    Nothing moves faster than thief, mirage evade is simple movespeed buff being destroyed by cripple/chill and lasts 0.75s, this "repeatable" dashes cost endurance without access to vigor.
    I will adopt sind phrase : clueless gold player.

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Does meta mirage even run sword though?

    And why is thief being dragged into this debate over ci, this isn't a sprint race debate.

    P.s nerf holo.

  • Ben K.6238Ben K.6238 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    If I understood this the 60-90 is an ICD on CI, if that is the case, it would be a worthless trait, since you would be wasting a 60sec trait to get a skill cd up to 20.
    A more sensible approach would be +20sec cd with a 10sec-15 tops ICD.
    As for the power drain it would be cool, that or arcane languor, every time you rupt foe would get exhaustion for x seconds, with ICD.

    Your understanding is correct - the point would be to pick the skill to disable carefully, because you're only going to get one opportunity in most cases. But I concede that might not be so significant with the current state of balance in GW2.

    It's certainly interesting to look back at GW1 and see Diversion able to knock a skill out for nearly 60 seconds on a 12s cooldown.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    I'm inclined to agree with @bravan.3876 on this.

    MoD on its own is not a problem. if you're on your last legs and the mesmer hasnt burned MoD to try to stop you from eating their HP, then you already lost the fight.
    The synergy with that and CI is too much, because immob on daze can lead to immob locks just like the bugged entangle, that ALSO breaks your attempt to clear the immob if your clear of choice has a cast time.

    on its own, MoD is fine. You can generally tell when the mesmer is going to use it. Itll either be burned trying to stop you from bursting them, or to stop you from healing. You can stow to bait it if you're 1200R away or less, move further, to heal for free, or pressure the mes into a cast to heal. While I think its obnoxious that they can just daze whatever they want, I'm not sure nerfing specifically it is going to help. It may be instant cast, but keep in mind that mesmers are generally slower than thieves and a long range cast may be necessary to interrupt people wanting to leave a fight theyre losing. I bet any nerf that causes them to, say, lose every encounter with warrior because rush/whirl (or swoop) outspeeds Power lock is going to feel really kitten bad.

    You balance CI, and put a projectile tell on Arcane thievery, and I think you can call it a day until the next busted synergy.

    Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time. Unless you mean they are less good at running away, which sure, thats true, but Mesmer doesnt need to run away. Oh and if youre worried that you wont be able to stop a Warrior from running away if they save all their skills to do so? Good. Thieves havent been able to stop that for years, its about time Mesmer cant either.

    " Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time " <----- what ?

    usually 1 dash/blink and swiftness is enaught to run away from mesmer, so preety much every class can do that right now.

    Thats not been true ever since Mirage was around. They also have that blink in, well, blink. They also have 2 jaunts. And they have superspeed on demand that beats your swiftness. And repeatable 600 unit dashes. Youre not getting away from Mesmers unless you have a lot of mobility.

    alright so you want sword mirage to chase someone using blink,jaunt and ambush sword?
    first of all using sword means you are power mirage ( that kinda sucks ) or you are trolling so nobody even needs to run away from you. Cmirage with sword means that for 9s you are useless, kinda like selfdaze for 9s.
    you just used our strongest mobility tools, too bad you cant use them if you wanna have impact.
    if i use superspeed,blink,sword and jaunt.
    it means i went chaos traitline with jaunt as power mesmer, what it means is that i have no damage, cc, survivibility and in return i have good mobility, on par with warriors, mb slightly better due to jumping on ledges.
    what you spew out is what usually happens with people that dont play the class they whine about, you play against condi mirage, you get whooped by good condi and you think, kitten mirage has good dueling ability!
    then different build power mirage kills you, and you think kitten mirage has a good burst damage !, then different build mirage runs away from you and you think kitten it even has amazing mobility!!!!, while in reality those are 3 different builds. cant have it all in 1 thing.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:
    @Lincolnbeard.1735 look another thief with a victim syndrome :joy:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Oh yes, it does. Youre pretty much restricted to dodgerolls, and stunbreaks. And yes, Power Mesmer in fact does oneshot. In fact, outside of cheesy backstab oneshot builds (which only work on squishy as hell enemies), Mesmer is easily the best class at oneshotting. The full burst takes less than a quarter of a second to hit if you do it properly. And it kills anything but the tankiest builds. Its pretty kitten silly, and probably my most-played WvW build that I only stopped because oneshotting without counterplay gets dull after a while.

    So you are talking about wvw? I'm not interested in your wvw stories, I had seen enough 0 malice over 21k oneshots from stealth without any counterplay but pretend what u want. :joy:

    Except Mirage, obviously. And its a significantly better movement speed buff than Swiftness, and obviously does a lot better vs cripple/chill. It also lasts 0.75 seconds every time you get into mirage cloak. And yes, the dash does take endurance. Just like Thieves Shortbow 5 takes initiative. Difference is, you regenerate endurance way faster. That being said, it seems youve never actually played Mirage. Because then you wouldve known that Mirage has plenty of access to vigor, uses sigils of energy on both weapons and rune of the adventurer, a healing skill that grants vigor, ontop of the whole jaunt thing. So, perhaps try playing the build for a bit, see how mobile it actually is. And you will see quite clearly that yeah, its way faster than thief unless youre porting up ledges back to back.

    So you made this post full of nonsense and lies just to provoce me? Wont work.

    Initiative will replenish naturally at one point every second. Wiki.

    But...

    Difference is, you regenerate endurance way faster.

    6 seconds to use infilitrator arrow vs 10 seconds to gain an evade.
    Seems like you never played thief even once, I recommend you to play it before talk to me again.

    Because then you wouldve known that Mirage has plenty of access to vigor, uses sigils of energy on both weapons and rune of the adventurer, a healing skill that grants vigor, ontop of the whole jaunt thing

    So the build you complaint about is... domination dueling mirage ? Vigor access is only on crit(in combat lul) 3/10 gutted in one of patches when others either 5/10 or permanent like thief with boosted it beyond belief. And on shatter 1.5s. plenty of access to vigor :joy:
    Pretend 0.75s 66% movespeed far better than swiftness? Funny guy.
    So whats up with energy sigils? They count as mobility tools now? They work out of combat? Mesmer has double mainhand sword just for "incombat" mobility ?
    Oh,my,god RUNE OF THE ADVENTURER, thats a killer :joy:
    I'm not willing to waste 25s cd heal just for 5s of vigor, neither my the only cleanse in entire build and extra panic button with kitten-long cooldown.
    With such pathetic vigor as power mirage there is no way its faster than thief.
    No swiftness at all vs swiftness from dodges. Check.
    Leap on 10s cd , 600 range vs infi arrow every 6s 900 range check.
    Another thief main pretends his class is worst at everything... even burst is not there... :joy:

    I also changed my mind, silver player, not even gold.
    edit: kid was sniped by mods

    The WvW version is what I played, because oneshot builds arent quite as effective in sPvP, due to the design of the mode. However, you can oneshot just as easily in sPvP. Yknow, the standard greatsword combo that does something like 4.0 scaling damage (to compare, malicious backstab is 2.62 scaling).

    Yknow, just stating "oh its all lies" when someone takes your argument apart and shows it to be wrong doesnt make your argument convincing. It just makes it clear your argument doesnt work, and that you have to just deflect to try and salvage it.

    Are we pretending vigor and instant endurance regeneration doesnt exist again? The first reduces the baseline regeneration to 7.5 seconds, but then you have 2 seperate ways to regain 50 endurance instantly. One of which has 9 seconds of cooldown. Thief only has 1, and thats a 60 second cooldown stunbreak. So, yeah, a lot easier to regain endurance.

    We were talking about chase potential. So obviously, in-combat sigils count since were going to be, yknow, in combat? Its kind of in the description. Out of combat thief is still faster at moving, thanks primarily due to elevation advantage, which is certainly good because if Mesmer was also better at that, thief would have no reason to be picked.

    When chasing an enemy? Of course youre going to do that. You really need to check the context before commenting, else youre just going off on a tangent that isnt relevant.

    "no swiftness at all", so were first going to ignore that mirage gets better swiftness on mirage cloak? Were also going to ignore the fact that Superior Sigil of Agility gives swiftness? Alright, guess if you want results you cant get normally, you need to bend the truth a little. Also, Leap on 10 second, blatant lie, 900 range on infiltrators arrow, I assume youre not familiar with how it works (you move while its midair. It ends up being about 700 range usually, unless porting up ledges). So yeah, I suppose if you bend everything to your whims, even the truth can be false.

    Also your argument against thief not having burst is you getting hit by the most telegraphed and easy to avoid burst skill in the game? After you were hit by at least 3 skirmishers shot, so even the burst you couldve avoided with ease took at least 2 full seconds to get there, as opposed to Mesmers .2 seconds.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    I'm inclined to agree with @bravan.3876 on this.

    MoD on its own is not a problem. if you're on your last legs and the mesmer hasnt burned MoD to try to stop you from eating their HP, then you already lost the fight.
    The synergy with that and CI is too much, because immob on daze can lead to immob locks just like the bugged entangle, that ALSO breaks your attempt to clear the immob if your clear of choice has a cast time.

    on its own, MoD is fine. You can generally tell when the mesmer is going to use it. Itll either be burned trying to stop you from bursting them, or to stop you from healing. You can stow to bait it if you're 1200R away or less, move further, to heal for free, or pressure the mes into a cast to heal. While I think its obnoxious that they can just daze whatever they want, I'm not sure nerfing specifically it is going to help. It may be instant cast, but keep in mind that mesmers are generally slower than thieves and a long range cast may be necessary to interrupt people wanting to leave a fight theyre losing. I bet any nerf that causes them to, say, lose every encounter with warrior because rush/whirl (or swoop) outspeeds Power lock is going to feel really kitten bad.

    You balance CI, and put a projectile tell on Arcane thievery, and I think you can call it a day until the next busted synergy.

    Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time. Unless you mean they are less good at running away, which sure, thats true, but Mesmer doesnt need to run away. Oh and if youre worried that you wont be able to stop a Warrior from running away if they save all their skills to do so? Good. Thieves havent been able to stop that for years, its about time Mesmer cant either.

    " Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time " <----- what ?

    usually 1 dash/blink and swiftness is enaught to run away from mesmer, so preety much every class can do that right now.

    Thats not been true ever since Mirage was around. They also have that blink in, well, blink. They also have 2 jaunts. And they have superspeed on demand that beats your swiftness. And repeatable 600 unit dashes. Youre not getting away from Mesmers unless you have a lot of mobility.

    alright so you want sword mirage to chase someone using blink,jaunt and ambush sword?
    first of all using sword means you are power mirage ( that kinda sucks ) or you are trolling so nobody even needs to run away from you. Cmirage with sword means that for 9s you are useless, kinda like selfdaze for 9s.
    you just used our strongest mobility tools, too bad you cant use them if you wanna have impact.
    if i use superspeed,blink,sword and jaunt.
    it means i went chaos traitline with jaunt as power mesmer, what it means is that i have no damage, cc, survivibility and in return i have good mobility, on par with warriors, mb slightly better due to jumping on ledges.
    what you spew out is what usually happens with people that dont play the class they whine about, you play against condi mirage, you get whooped by good condi and you think, kitten mirage has good dueling ability!
    then different build power mirage kills you, and you think kitten mirage has a good burst damage !, then different build mirage runs away from you and you think kitten it even has amazing mobility!!!!, while in reality those are 3 different builds. cant have it all in 1 thing.

    You get pseudo-superspeed from mirage. So no need for chaos traitline. Though, I should probably stop calling it superspeed, since while its twice as good as swiftness, its not quite as good as super-speed. No, you get that just from being mirage, no need to get any other traitlines. So, you still have the ludicrous power shatter burst that can kill almost anyone, mobility that outperforms warriors, and survivability that you get from being, well, a power shatter mirage. And no, you can have it all in one thing. I should know. I used it for a while, with all of these benefits in one build.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    I'm inclined to agree with @bravan.3876 on this.

    MoD on its own is not a problem. if you're on your last legs and the mesmer hasnt burned MoD to try to stop you from eating their HP, then you already lost the fight.
    The synergy with that and CI is too much, because immob on daze can lead to immob locks just like the bugged entangle, that ALSO breaks your attempt to clear the immob if your clear of choice has a cast time.

    on its own, MoD is fine. You can generally tell when the mesmer is going to use it. Itll either be burned trying to stop you from bursting them, or to stop you from healing. You can stow to bait it if you're 1200R away or less, move further, to heal for free, or pressure the mes into a cast to heal. While I think its obnoxious that they can just daze whatever they want, I'm not sure nerfing specifically it is going to help. It may be instant cast, but keep in mind that mesmers are generally slower than thieves and a long range cast may be necessary to interrupt people wanting to leave a fight theyre losing. I bet any nerf that causes them to, say, lose every encounter with warrior because rush/whirl (or swoop) outspeeds Power lock is going to feel really kitten bad.

    You balance CI, and put a projectile tell on Arcane thievery, and I think you can call it a day until the next busted synergy.

    Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time. Unless you mean they are less good at running away, which sure, thats true, but Mesmer doesnt need to run away. Oh and if youre worried that you wont be able to stop a Warrior from running away if they save all their skills to do so? Good. Thieves havent been able to stop that for years, its about time Mesmer cant either.

    " Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time " <----- what ?

    usually 1 dash/blink and swiftness is enaught to run away from mesmer, so preety much every class can do that right now.

    Thats not been true ever since Mirage was around. They also have that blink in, well, blink. They also have 2 jaunts. And they have superspeed on demand that beats your swiftness. And repeatable 600 unit dashes. Youre not getting away from Mesmers unless you have a lot of mobility.

    alright so you want sword mirage to chase someone using blink,jaunt and ambush sword?
    first of all using sword means you are power mirage ( that kinda sucks ) or you are trolling so nobody even needs to run away from you. Cmirage with sword means that for 9s you are useless, kinda like selfdaze for 9s.
    you just used our strongest mobility tools, too bad you cant use them if you wanna have impact.
    if i use superspeed,blink,sword and jaunt.
    it means i went chaos traitline with jaunt as power mesmer, what it means is that i have no damage, cc, survivibility and in return i have good mobility, on par with warriors, mb slightly better due to jumping on ledges.
    what you spew out is what usually happens with people that dont play the class they whine about, you play against condi mirage, you get whooped by good condi and you think, kitten mirage has good dueling ability!
    then different build power mirage kills you, and you think kitten mirage has a good burst damage !, then different build mirage runs away from you and you think kitten it even has amazing mobility!!!!, while in reality those are 3 different builds. cant have it all in 1 thing.

    You get pseudo-superspeed from mirage. So no need for chaos traitline. Though, I should probably stop calling it superspeed, since while its twice as good as swiftness, its not quite as good as super-speed. No, you get that just from being mirage, no need to get any other traitlines. So, you still have the ludicrous power shatter burst that can kill almost anyone, mobility that outperforms warriors, and survivability that you get from being, well, a power shatter mirage. And no, you can have it all in one thing. I should know. I used it for a while, with all of these benefits in one build.

    superspeed from being mirage -> LOL
    mobility better then warrior -> LOL
    shatter burst that can kill almost anyone LOOOL

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2019

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Are we pretending vigor and instant endurance regeneration doesnt exist again? The first reduces the baseline regeneration to 7.5 seconds

    Natural regen is 5%/s or 10 seconds for one dodge. With vigor, it's 7.5%/s or 6.67 seconds for one dodge.

    but then you have 2 seperate ways to regain 50 endurance instantly. One of which has 9 seconds of cooldown. Thief only has 1, and thats a 60 second cooldown stunbreak. So, yeah, a lot easier to regain endurance.

    Thief has so many evades (and permavigor) they can afford to not take energy sigils, lol.

    "no swiftness at all", so were first going to ignore that mirage gets better swiftness on mirage cloak?

    So you have approximately 7.5% (or 11.2% if you have permavigor, which you don't) uptime, which comes in 0.75 seconds bulks.
    Don't forget swiftness is already near speedcap out of combat too so you won't get any noticable difference between swiftness and Mirage dodge.

    Were also going to ignore the fact that Superior Sigil of Agility gives swiftness?

    Nearly all sidenoders have way more swiftness than mirages anyway.

    Alright, guess if you want results you cant get normally, you need to bend the truth a little. Also, Leap on 10 second, blatant lie, 900 range on infiltrators arrow, I assume youre not familiar with how it works (you move while its midair. It ends up being about 700 range usually, unless porting up ledges). So yeah, I suppose if you bend everything to your whims, even the truth can be false.

    You can port in Z direction unlike leap. Are we really comparing teleports to leaps?

    Looks like you aren't the most knowledgeable when it comes to GW2's mechanics.

    Edit: It also looks like you are talking about a Mirage who has Domination, Dueling and Chaos at the same time or something like that.

  • @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:
    Does meta mirage even run sword though?

    And why is thief being dragged into this debate over ci, this isn't a sprint race debate.

    P.s nerf holo.

    I noticed that I made a grave error in making a comparison that was supposed to have the conclusion of "MoD(without CI) is balanced because its use case as it currently stands is similar to headshot, with its advantages reasonably compensating for the mechanical differences between both of those classes" and bailed from the argument.
    My point didn't get made because its foundation isn't believed. I didn't intend for this to be a thief discussion.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    I'm inclined to agree with @bravan.3876 on this.

    MoD on its own is not a problem. if you're on your last legs and the mesmer hasnt burned MoD to try to stop you from eating their HP, then you already lost the fight.
    The synergy with that and CI is too much, because immob on daze can lead to immob locks just like the bugged entangle, that ALSO breaks your attempt to clear the immob if your clear of choice has a cast time.

    on its own, MoD is fine. You can generally tell when the mesmer is going to use it. Itll either be burned trying to stop you from bursting them, or to stop you from healing. You can stow to bait it if you're 1200R away or less, move further, to heal for free, or pressure the mes into a cast to heal. While I think its obnoxious that they can just daze whatever they want, I'm not sure nerfing specifically it is going to help. It may be instant cast, but keep in mind that mesmers are generally slower than thieves and a long range cast may be necessary to interrupt people wanting to leave a fight theyre losing. I bet any nerf that causes them to, say, lose every encounter with warrior because rush/whirl (or swoop) outspeeds Power lock is going to feel really kitten bad.

    You balance CI, and put a projectile tell on Arcane thievery, and I think you can call it a day until the next busted synergy.

    Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time. Unless you mean they are less good at running away, which sure, thats true, but Mesmer doesnt need to run away. Oh and if youre worried that you wont be able to stop a Warrior from running away if they save all their skills to do so? Good. Thieves havent been able to stop that for years, its about time Mesmer cant either.

    " Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time " <----- what ?

    usually 1 dash/blink and swiftness is enaught to run away from mesmer, so preety much every class can do that right now.

    Thats not been true ever since Mirage was around. They also have that blink in, well, blink. They also have 2 jaunts. And they have superspeed on demand that beats your swiftness. And repeatable 600 unit dashes. Youre not getting away from Mesmers unless you have a lot of mobility.

    alright so you want sword mirage to chase someone using blink,jaunt and ambush sword?
    first of all using sword means you are power mirage ( that kinda sucks ) or you are trolling so nobody even needs to run away from you. Cmirage with sword means that for 9s you are useless, kinda like selfdaze for 9s.
    you just used our strongest mobility tools, too bad you cant use them if you wanna have impact.
    if i use superspeed,blink,sword and jaunt.
    it means i went chaos traitline with jaunt as power mesmer, what it means is that i have no damage, cc, survivibility and in return i have good mobility, on par with warriors, mb slightly better due to jumping on ledges.
    what you spew out is what usually happens with people that dont play the class they whine about, you play against condi mirage, you get whooped by good condi and you think, kitten mirage has good dueling ability!
    then different build power mirage kills you, and you think kitten mirage has a good burst damage !, then different build mirage runs away from you and you think kitten it even has amazing mobility!!!!, while in reality those are 3 different builds. cant have it all in 1 thing.

    You get pseudo-superspeed from mirage. So no need for chaos traitline. Though, I should probably stop calling it superspeed, since while its twice as good as swiftness, its not quite as good as super-speed. No, you get that just from being mirage, no need to get any other traitlines. So, you still have the ludicrous power shatter burst that can kill almost anyone, mobility that outperforms warriors, and survivability that you get from being, well, a power shatter mirage. And no, you can have it all in one thing. I should know. I used it for a while, with all of these benefits in one build.

    superspeed from being mirage -> LOL
    mobility better then warrior -> LOL
    shatter burst that can kill almost anyone LOOOL

    66% extra movement speed. As I said, not quite as good as superspeeds 100%, but twice as good as Swiftness's 33%. Mobility better than warrior, well if you want to experience it first hand, try playing Warrior in WvW and see if you can run away from mirages. Unless you rush immideatly while a good distance away, you wont. And yeah, the GS shatter combo can kill almost anyone, you usually hit around, hm, 19k damage? More if you use the damage mantra but I always felt that was just unneccessary overkill.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Are we pretending vigor and instant endurance regeneration doesnt exist again? The first reduces the baseline regeneration to 7.5 seconds

    Natural regen is 5%/s or 10 seconds for one dodge. With vigor, it's 7.5%/s or 6.67 seconds for one dodge.

    but then you have 2 seperate ways to regain 50 endurance instantly. One of which has 9 seconds of cooldown. Thief only has 1, and thats a 60 second cooldown stunbreak. So, yeah, a lot easier to regain endurance.

    Thief has so many evades (and permavigor) they can afford to not take energy sigils, lol.

    "no swiftness at all", so were first going to ignore that mirage gets better swiftness on mirage cloak?

    So you have approximately 7.5% (or 11.2% if you have permavigor, which you don't) uptime, which comes in 0.75 seconds bulks.
    Don't forget swiftness is already near speedcap out of combat too so you won't get any noticable difference between swiftness and Mirage dodge.

    Were also going to ignore the fact that Superior Sigil of Agility gives swiftness?

    Nearly all sidenoders have way more swiftness than mirages anyway.

    Alright, guess if you want results you cant get normally, you need to bend the truth a little. Also, Leap on 10 second, blatant lie, 900 range on infiltrators arrow, I assume youre not familiar with how it works (you move while its midair. It ends up being about 700 range usually, unless porting up ledges). So yeah, I suppose if you bend everything to your whims, even the truth can be false.

    You can port in Z direction unlike leap. Are we really comparing teleports to leaps?

    Looks like you aren't the most knowledgeable when it comes to GW2's mechanics.

    Edit: It also looks like you are talking about a Mirage who has Domination, Dueling and Chaos at the same time or something like that.

    I was talking about initiative restoration, not endurance restoration. Endurance restoration is a different thing alltogether, though that being said you use energy sigils as thief. Both as S/D, and D/P thief. Its still probably the best sigil to have on shortbow.

    Were talking specifically in combat, not out of combat. The whole context was chase scenarios. Out of combat, yes, thief is still more mobile. Elevation advantage alone makes sure they would be.

    Which when chasing, doesnt matter unless youre chasing a thief, since theyre the only ones who will be porting ledges more than once. At which point it doesnt matter, because if a theif got to the stage where they can port back to back, youre not gonna catch up with them ever.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Why you guys still feed this troll? What he says doesn't even worth any attention. In his world stowing, kiting, los and using environment are no valid plays and for that valid counters. Blocks, stabi, blinding etc are no counterplays. I guess he stands on points double dodge when he see a target watching in his direction and then runs out of ideas what to do to stay alive because nothing else is a counter than dodge, nothing else are valid and skilled plays. Just dodge nohead! If you can't dodge it you can just go afk and stop fighting the target because you lost already, yes sir that is how the game works

    in bronze!
    Just let him talk to himself !
    Mirage dodgespeed is only to make Mirage able to move with a dodge like every other class can, it doesn't add any more movement than all other classes have with a dodge. Also claiming Mirage is faster than Thief... i mean rly he can't even get convinced by the obvious, stop wasting your time on him! I guess he is a close friend to the mouse guy complaining about Halos

    You still have yet to explain how you stow cancel to prevent an instant interrupt. In fact, strangely whenever that gaping flaw in your argument ,that completely destroys it gets brought up, you just suddenly go quiet. I assume you have no retort and admit that youre just wrong? Also, you do know that, outside of thieves dash, the distance you cover by dodging, is the same distance you would cover by walking, right?

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2019

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Why you guys still feed this troll? What he says doesn't even worth any attention. In his world stowing, kiting, los and using environment are no valid plays and for that valid counters. Blocks, stabi, blinding etc are no counterplays. I guess he stands on points double dodge when he see a target watching in his direction and then runs out of ideas what to do to stay alive because nothing else is a counter than dodge, nothing else are valid and skilled plays. Just dodge nohead! If you can't dodge it you can just go afk and stop fighting the target because you lost already, yes sir that is how the game works

    in bronze!
    Just let him talk to himself !
    Mirage dodgespeed is only to make Mirage able to move with a dodge like every other class can, it doesn't add any more movement than all other classes have with a dodge. Also claiming Mirage is faster than Thief... i mean rly he can't even get convinced by the obvious, stop wasting your time on him! I guess he is a close friend to the mouse guy complaining about Halos

    You still have yet to explain how you stow cancel to prevent an instant interrupt. In fact, strangely whenever that gaping flaw in your argument ,that completely destroys it gets brought up, you just suddenly go quiet. I assume you have no retort and admit that youre just wrong? Also, you do know that, outside of thieves dash, the distance you cover by dodging, is the same distance you would cover by walking, right?

    Search in a gaming lexicon for mind games, maybe that will help you. Aside from that last advice i don't talk to you anymore and the others should just do the same (can't deny i am a little bit selfish here because i always get notification when you answer him... annoying much). The waste of life time makes me cry.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2019

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Also, you do know that, outside of thieves dash, the distance you cover by dodging, is the same distance you would cover by walking, right?

    Dodge is 300 units per 0.75 sec in every direction while walking is 294 per sec OOC and 210 per sec IC.
    Mirage dodge is 261.5 per 0.75 sec in combat, only going forwards.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    I'm inclined to agree with @bravan.3876 on this.

    MoD on its own is not a problem. if you're on your last legs and the mesmer hasnt burned MoD to try to stop you from eating their HP, then you already lost the fight.
    The synergy with that and CI is too much, because immob on daze can lead to immob locks just like the bugged entangle, that ALSO breaks your attempt to clear the immob if your clear of choice has a cast time.

    on its own, MoD is fine. You can generally tell when the mesmer is going to use it. Itll either be burned trying to stop you from bursting them, or to stop you from healing. You can stow to bait it if you're 1200R away or less, move further, to heal for free, or pressure the mes into a cast to heal. While I think its obnoxious that they can just daze whatever they want, I'm not sure nerfing specifically it is going to help. It may be instant cast, but keep in mind that mesmers are generally slower than thieves and a long range cast may be necessary to interrupt people wanting to leave a fight theyre losing. I bet any nerf that causes them to, say, lose every encounter with warrior because rush/whirl (or swoop) outspeeds Power lock is going to feel really kitten bad.

    You balance CI, and put a projectile tell on Arcane thievery, and I think you can call it a day until the next busted synergy.

    Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time. Unless you mean they are less good at running away, which sure, thats true, but Mesmer doesnt need to run away. Oh and if youre worried that you wont be able to stop a Warrior from running away if they save all their skills to do so? Good. Thieves havent been able to stop that for years, its about time Mesmer cant either.

    " Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time " <----- what ?

    usually 1 dash/blink and swiftness is enaught to run away from mesmer, so preety much every class can do that right now.

    Thats not been true ever since Mirage was around. They also have that blink in, well, blink. They also have 2 jaunts. And they have superspeed on demand that beats your swiftness. And repeatable 600 unit dashes. Youre not getting away from Mesmers unless you have a lot of mobility.

    alright so you want sword mirage to chase someone using blink,jaunt and ambush sword?
    first of all using sword means you are power mirage ( that kinda sucks ) or you are trolling so nobody even needs to run away from you. Cmirage with sword means that for 9s you are useless, kinda like selfdaze for 9s.
    you just used our strongest mobility tools, too bad you cant use them if you wanna have impact.
    if i use superspeed,blink,sword and jaunt.
    it means i went chaos traitline with jaunt as power mesmer, what it means is that i have no damage, cc, survivibility and in return i have good mobility, on par with warriors, mb slightly better due to jumping on ledges.
    what you spew out is what usually happens with people that dont play the class they whine about, you play against condi mirage, you get whooped by good condi and you think, kitten mirage has good dueling ability!
    then different build power mirage kills you, and you think kitten mirage has a good burst damage !, then different build mirage runs away from you and you think kitten it even has amazing mobility!!!!, while in reality those are 3 different builds. cant have it all in 1 thing.

    You get pseudo-superspeed from mirage. So no need for chaos traitline. Though, I should probably stop calling it superspeed, since while its twice as good as swiftness, its not quite as good as super-speed. No, you get that just from being mirage, no need to get any other traitlines. So, you still have the ludicrous power shatter burst that can kill almost anyone, mobility that outperforms warriors, and survivability that you get from being, well, a power shatter mirage. And no, you can have it all in one thing. I should know. I used it for a while, with all of these benefits in one build.

    superspeed from being mirage -> LOL
    mobility better then warrior -> LOL
    shatter burst that can kill almost anyone LOOOL

    66% extra movement speed. As I said, not quite as good as superspeeds 100%, but twice as good as Swiftness's 33%. Mobility better than warrior, well if you want to experience it first hand, try playing Warrior in WvW and see if you can run away from mirages. Unless you rush immideatly while a good distance away, you wont. And yeah, the GS shatter combo can kill almost anyone, you usually hit around, hm, 19k damage? More if you use the damage mantra but I always felt that was just unneccessary overkill.

    last time i took a look it was in pvp section, unless something changed ?
    in wvw mirage gets MUCH more energy generation ( dueling vigor ) + food + energy sigils give 50% instead of 25% so you get more ambushes = more mobility.
    the fact that you think 0,75s of 66% movespeed bonus counts as a mobility on dodge, yikes.
    also if you use mobility to chase down warrior, be it wvw or pvp you die. you dont run up close to warrior by using all your defensive tools and expect to survive.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Why you guys still feed this troll? What he says doesn't even worth any attention. In his world stowing, kiting, los and using environment are no valid plays and for that valid counters. Blocks, stabi, blinding etc are no counterplays. I guess he stands on points double dodge when he see a target watching in his direction and then runs out of ideas what to do to stay alive because nothing else is a counter than dodge, nothing else are valid and skilled plays. Just dodge nohead! If you can't dodge it you can just go afk and stop fighting the target because you lost already, yes sir that is how the game works

    in bronze!
    Just let him talk to himself !
    Mirage dodgespeed is only to make Mirage able to move with a dodge like every other class can, it doesn't add any more movement than all other classes have with a dodge. Also claiming Mirage is faster than Thief... i mean rly he can't even get convinced by the obvious, stop wasting your time on him! I guess he is a close friend to the mouse guy complaining about Halos

    You still have yet to explain how you stow cancel to prevent an instant interrupt. In fact, strangely whenever that gaping flaw in your argument ,that completely destroys it gets brought up, you just suddenly go quiet. I assume you have no retort and admit that youre just wrong? Also, you do know that, outside of thieves dash, the distance you cover by dodging, is the same distance you would cover by walking, right?

    read about human reaction time ( The average reaction time is 284 milliseconds. ). it means that from the moment you start the casttime, if you stof weapon after 0,25s. your enemy will make decision to interupt, but he wont notice you stowing, since his reaction time is 284 milisecounds. Im sory man but no human alive can react instantly.

    as for dodges, in combat dodge is better then moving forward and expecially better when you are slowed,chilled,hobbled.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    I'm inclined to agree with @bravan.3876 on this.

    MoD on its own is not a problem. if you're on your last legs and the mesmer hasnt burned MoD to try to stop you from eating their HP, then you already lost the fight.
    The synergy with that and CI is too much, because immob on daze can lead to immob locks just like the bugged entangle, that ALSO breaks your attempt to clear the immob if your clear of choice has a cast time.

    on its own, MoD is fine. You can generally tell when the mesmer is going to use it. Itll either be burned trying to stop you from bursting them, or to stop you from healing. You can stow to bait it if you're 1200R away or less, move further, to heal for free, or pressure the mes into a cast to heal. While I think its obnoxious that they can just daze whatever they want, I'm not sure nerfing specifically it is going to help. It may be instant cast, but keep in mind that mesmers are generally slower than thieves and a long range cast may be necessary to interrupt people wanting to leave a fight theyre losing. I bet any nerf that causes them to, say, lose every encounter with warrior because rush/whirl (or swoop) outspeeds Power lock is going to feel really kitten bad.

    You balance CI, and put a projectile tell on Arcane thievery, and I think you can call it a day until the next busted synergy.

    Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time. Unless you mean they are less good at running away, which sure, thats true, but Mesmer doesnt need to run away. Oh and if youre worried that you wont be able to stop a Warrior from running away if they save all their skills to do so? Good. Thieves havent been able to stop that for years, its about time Mesmer cant either.

    " Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time " <----- what ?

    usually 1 dash/blink and swiftness is enaught to run away from mesmer, so preety much every class can do that right now.

    Thats not been true ever since Mirage was around. They also have that blink in, well, blink. They also have 2 jaunts. And they have superspeed on demand that beats your swiftness. And repeatable 600 unit dashes. Youre not getting away from Mesmers unless you have a lot of mobility.

    alright so you want sword mirage to chase someone using blink,jaunt and ambush sword?
    first of all using sword means you are power mirage ( that kinda sucks ) or you are trolling so nobody even needs to run away from you. Cmirage with sword means that for 9s you are useless, kinda like selfdaze for 9s.
    you just used our strongest mobility tools, too bad you cant use them if you wanna have impact.
    if i use superspeed,blink,sword and jaunt.
    it means i went chaos traitline with jaunt as power mesmer, what it means is that i have no damage, cc, survivibility and in return i have good mobility, on par with warriors, mb slightly better due to jumping on ledges.
    what you spew out is what usually happens with people that dont play the class they whine about, you play against condi mirage, you get whooped by good condi and you think, kitten mirage has good dueling ability!
    then different build power mirage kills you, and you think kitten mirage has a good burst damage !, then different build mirage runs away from you and you think kitten it even has amazing mobility!!!!, while in reality those are 3 different builds. cant have it all in 1 thing.

    You get pseudo-superspeed from mirage. So no need for chaos traitline. Though, I should probably stop calling it superspeed, since while its twice as good as swiftness, its not quite as good as super-speed. No, you get that just from being mirage, no need to get any other traitlines. So, you still have the ludicrous power shatter burst that can kill almost anyone, mobility that outperforms warriors, and survivability that you get from being, well, a power shatter mirage. And no, you can have it all in one thing. I should know. I used it for a while, with all of these benefits in one build.

    superspeed from being mirage -> LOL
    mobility better then warrior -> LOL
    shatter burst that can kill almost anyone LOOOL

    66% extra movement speed. As I said, not quite as good as superspeeds 100%, but twice as good as Swiftness's 33%. Mobility better than warrior, well if you want to experience it first hand, try playing Warrior in WvW and see if you can run away from mirages. Unless you rush immideatly while a good distance away, you wont. And yeah, the GS shatter combo can kill almost anyone, you usually hit around, hm, 19k damage? More if you use the damage mantra but I always felt that was just unneccessary overkill.

    last time i took a look it was in pvp section, unless something changed ?
    in wvw mirage gets MUCH more energy generation ( dueling vigor ) + food + energy sigils give 50% instead of 25% so you get more ambushes = more mobility.
    the fact that you think 0,75s of 66% movespeed bonus counts as a mobility on dodge, yikes.
    also if you use mobility to chase down warrior, be it wvw or pvp you die. you dont run up close to warrior by using all your defensive tools and expect to survive.

    You are. WvW Mirage Shatter is much higher than 19k. And I was looking at PvP energy generation, not WvW either, again, tis much higher. And yes, the 66% does count. Its not much, but it adds up. And you usually chase a warrior if theyre low and youre about to kill them. Not if they can just turn around and kill you if you do.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    I'm inclined to agree with @bravan.3876 on this.

    MoD on its own is not a problem. if you're on your last legs and the mesmer hasnt burned MoD to try to stop you from eating their HP, then you already lost the fight.
    The synergy with that and CI is too much, because immob on daze can lead to immob locks just like the bugged entangle, that ALSO breaks your attempt to clear the immob if your clear of choice has a cast time.

    on its own, MoD is fine. You can generally tell when the mesmer is going to use it. Itll either be burned trying to stop you from bursting them, or to stop you from healing. You can stow to bait it if you're 1200R away or less, move further, to heal for free, or pressure the mes into a cast to heal. While I think its obnoxious that they can just daze whatever they want, I'm not sure nerfing specifically it is going to help. It may be instant cast, but keep in mind that mesmers are generally slower than thieves and a long range cast may be necessary to interrupt people wanting to leave a fight theyre losing. I bet any nerf that causes them to, say, lose every encounter with warrior because rush/whirl (or swoop) outspeeds Power lock is going to feel really kitten bad.

    You balance CI, and put a projectile tell on Arcane thievery, and I think you can call it a day until the next busted synergy.

    Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time. Unless you mean they are less good at running away, which sure, thats true, but Mesmer doesnt need to run away. Oh and if youre worried that you wont be able to stop a Warrior from running away if they save all their skills to do so? Good. Thieves havent been able to stop that for years, its about time Mesmer cant either.

    " Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time " <----- what ?

    usually 1 dash/blink and swiftness is enaught to run away from mesmer, so preety much every class can do that right now.

    Thats not been true ever since Mirage was around. They also have that blink in, well, blink. They also have 2 jaunts. And they have superspeed on demand that beats your swiftness. And repeatable 600 unit dashes. Youre not getting away from Mesmers unless you have a lot of mobility.

    alright so you want sword mirage to chase someone using blink,jaunt and ambush sword?
    first of all using sword means you are power mirage ( that kinda sucks ) or you are trolling so nobody even needs to run away from you. Cmirage with sword means that for 9s you are useless, kinda like selfdaze for 9s.
    you just used our strongest mobility tools, too bad you cant use them if you wanna have impact.
    if i use superspeed,blink,sword and jaunt.
    it means i went chaos traitline with jaunt as power mesmer, what it means is that i have no damage, cc, survivibility and in return i have good mobility, on par with warriors, mb slightly better due to jumping on ledges.
    what you spew out is what usually happens with people that dont play the class they whine about, you play against condi mirage, you get whooped by good condi and you think, kitten mirage has good dueling ability!
    then different build power mirage kills you, and you think kitten mirage has a good burst damage !, then different build mirage runs away from you and you think kitten it even has amazing mobility!!!!, while in reality those are 3 different builds. cant have it all in 1 thing.

    You get pseudo-superspeed from mirage. So no need for chaos traitline. Though, I should probably stop calling it superspeed, since while its twice as good as swiftness, its not quite as good as super-speed. No, you get that just from being mirage, no need to get any other traitlines. So, you still have the ludicrous power shatter burst that can kill almost anyone, mobility that outperforms warriors, and survivability that you get from being, well, a power shatter mirage. And no, you can have it all in one thing. I should know. I used it for a while, with all of these benefits in one build.

    superspeed from being mirage -> LOL
    mobility better then warrior -> LOL
    shatter burst that can kill almost anyone LOOOL

    66% extra movement speed. As I said, not quite as good as superspeeds 100%, but twice as good as Swiftness's 33%. Mobility better than warrior, well if you want to experience it first hand, try playing Warrior in WvW and see if you can run away from mirages. Unless you rush immideatly while a good distance away, you wont. And yeah, the GS shatter combo can kill almost anyone, you usually hit around, hm, 19k damage? More if you use the damage mantra but I always felt that was just unneccessary overkill.

    last time i took a look it was in pvp section, unless something changed ?
    in wvw mirage gets MUCH more energy generation ( dueling vigor ) + food + energy sigils give 50% instead of 25% so you get more ambushes = more mobility.
    the fact that you think 0,75s of 66% movespeed bonus counts as a mobility on dodge, yikes.
    also if you use mobility to chase down warrior, be it wvw or pvp you die. you dont run up close to warrior by using all your defensive tools and expect to survive.

    You are. WvW Mirage Shatter is much higher than 19k. And I was looking at PvP energy generation, not WvW either, again, tis much higher. And yes, the 66% does count. Its not much, but it adds up. And you usually chase a warrior if theyre low and youre about to kill them. Not if they can just turn around and kill you if you do.

    they can turn around and kill you if you chase them, its not gonna take long. 0,3s for bullcharge and 0,5s for arcing and you are dead, heck could be even faster with quickness. Warrior doesnt even have to commit, gs3 throught mirage and continue kiting, mirage loses 1/4 hp and all clones. warrior gets healed gets might, if mirage keeps chasing that he gets 2shot and thats it.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Why you guys still feed this troll? What he says doesn't even worth any attention. In his world stowing, kiting, los and using environment are no valid plays and for that valid counters. Blocks, stabi, blinding etc are no counterplays. I guess he stands on points double dodge when he see a target watching in his direction and then runs out of ideas what to do to stay alive because nothing else is a counter than dodge, nothing else are valid and skilled plays. Just dodge nohead! If you can't dodge it you can just go afk and stop fighting the target because you lost already, yes sir that is how the game works

    in bronze!
    Just let him talk to himself !
    Mirage dodgespeed is only to make Mirage able to move with a dodge like every other class can, it doesn't add any more movement than all other classes have with a dodge. Also claiming Mirage is faster than Thief... i mean rly he can't even get convinced by the obvious, stop wasting your time on him! I guess he is a close friend to the mouse guy complaining about Halos

    You still have yet to explain how you stow cancel to prevent an instant interrupt. In fact, strangely whenever that gaping flaw in your argument ,that completely destroys it gets brought up, you just suddenly go quiet. I assume you have no retort and admit that youre just wrong? Also, you do know that, outside of thieves dash, the distance you cover by dodging, is the same distance you would cover by walking, right?

    read about human reaction time ( The average reaction time is 284 milliseconds. ). it means that from the moment you start the casttime, if you stof weapon after 0,25s. your enemy will make decision to interupt, but he wont notice you stowing, since his reaction time is 284 milisecounds. Im sory man but no human alive can react instantly.

    as for dodges, in combat dodge is better then moving forward and expecially better when you are slowed,chilled,hobbled.

    They dont have to react instantly. If youre planning to do that, youre just gonna cancel your own skill. They have no reason to press the button. Youre basically hoping to predict their action, but you run into the problem that you have too many variables. Reaction time varies from person to person, there is input and network lag, so on and so forth. So, you have a very high likelyhood of trying to stowcancel too late and getting interrupted, or cancelling too early and just giving them a free cancelled skill. Your odds of actually getting the timing right are very low. So, this doesnt really owrk.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    I didnt ask questions from you, they all were adressed to Trevor, he seems to ignore all my posts.

    >

    That's because you aren't attacking anyone or creating logical fallacies. Although you may be disagreeing with me, you only state your opinions with a supporting comment or two, which is what you're supposed to be doing, and then move on with your day.

    I don't feel a need to respond very often when people have proper conduct, unless I agree with what they are saying and have something to add.

    ~ Cheers

    Edit -Oh and about this though:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    Why are you calling @bravan.3876 mirage main if he is not?
    Why you talking about wvw in pvp section?
    Didnt you "quit" ?
    You said yourself power mesmer need it and without its weak but condi...(in fact it was easier to kill cmirage who ran mantra for me and way harder if they didnt) but still complaining ... I'm confused.
    If you want to nerf cmirage, you should understand what makes cmirage so strong ( I'm a bit lazy to make thread about it and most likely wont be heard xD) but a small hint is -> bleed on crit trait + IH + Scepter ambush = a lot of hits = a lot of bleeds. Tldr reduce number of hits from scepter ambush to reduce amount of bleeds produced. Or second solution would be give mesmer a real AMBUSH with the damage and make clone ambush condi duration lasts 0.5s so they do close to zero damage, this way you have to avoid only mesmer ambush and render clone ambush pretty useless.
    In short: its not condi mirage thread nerf, you are overestimating MoD as without interrupt traits its a waste of utility slot that could be filled with something way more useful, who are you trying to fool? You admit yourself that you just hate mirage and want to see the class nerfed.

    1. I don't believe for a second that guy isn't a Mirage main, or at least used to be one.
    2. I did quit, for the 2nd time actually. I spent a week looking for new games and then realized "again" that other games are actually kitten tier quality compared to Guild Wars 2. People think the competitive scene is bad/dead in GW2, but I can assure you that is far worse in other games of the same genre. I don't want to quit GW2 for several reasons, but boy do I want to have a quality que system again wherever it is that I'm at.
    3. When I was discussing Power vs Condi requirement for MOD, I was talking about kill potential and defensive values both actually.
    4. No, I don't want to Mirage to be touched at all tbh, I like the way the class feels both power & condi, which I have been playing a lot more lately. But I have to be honest with feedback when I say that I believe clone ambush spam damage via IH is THE problem that makes everything on Condi Mirage feel overwhelming no matter what build variant that it runs.
  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    I didnt ask questions from you, they all were adressed to Trevor, he seems to ignore all my posts.

    >

    That's because you aren't attacking anyone or creating logical fallacies. Although you may be disagreeing with me, you only state your opinions with a supporting comment or two, which is what you're supposed to be doing, and then move on with your day.

    I don't feel a need to respond very often when people have proper conduct, unless I agree with what they are saying and have something to add.

    ~ Cheers

    Its not an answer I was hoping for :disappointed:

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Why you guys still feed this troll? What he says doesn't even worth any attention. In his world stowing, kiting, los and using environment are no valid plays and for that valid counters. Blocks, stabi, blinding etc are no counterplays. I guess he stands on points double dodge when he see a target watching in his direction and then runs out of ideas what to do to stay alive because nothing else is a counter than dodge, nothing else are valid and skilled plays. Just dodge nohead! If you can't dodge it you can just go afk and stop fighting the target because you lost already, yes sir that is how the game works

    in bronze!
    Just let him talk to himself !
    Mirage dodgespeed is only to make Mirage able to move with a dodge like every other class can, it doesn't add any more movement than all other classes have with a dodge. Also claiming Mirage is faster than Thief... i mean rly he can't even get convinced by the obvious, stop wasting your time on him! I guess he is a close friend to the mouse guy complaining about Halos

    You still have yet to explain how you stow cancel to prevent an instant interrupt. In fact, strangely whenever that gaping flaw in your argument ,that completely destroys it gets brought up, you just suddenly go quiet. I assume you have no retort and admit that youre just wrong? Also, you do know that, outside of thieves dash, the distance you cover by dodging, is the same distance you would cover by walking, right?

    read about human reaction time ( The average reaction time is 284 milliseconds. ). it means that from the moment you start the casttime, if you stof weapon after 0,25s. your enemy will make decision to interupt, but he wont notice you stowing, since his reaction time is 284 milisecounds. Im sory man but no human alive can react instantly.

    as for dodges, in combat dodge is better then moving forward and expecially better when you are slowed,chilled,hobbled.

    They dont have to react instantly. If youre planning to do that, youre just gonna cancel your own skill. They have no reason to press the button. Youre basically hoping to predict their action, but you run into the problem that you have too many variables. Reaction time varies from person to person, there is input and network lag, so on and so forth. So, you have a very high likelyhood of trying to stowcancel too late and getting interrupted, or cancelling too early and just giving them a free cancelled skill. Your odds of actually getting the timing right are very low. So, this doesnt really owrk.

    lets assume you play someone with good perfect connection. and you want to interupt important 1/2s casttime skill.
    lets assume also you have above average reaction time of 220 milisec, what it means is that stowing would be best made in 219 milisec, if perfectly made. oponent would be capable of noticing and reacting in abovementioned 220milisec adding up to 439milisec. if done correctly it gives 61milisec of leeway for the person using interupt to make a decision of canceling or not. this also assumes person using MoD has perfect internet connection, has above average reaction time while being 100% focused on interupting the ability.

    if you KNOW that opponent WILL want to cancel your ability, if you stowed properly, you are more likely to succeed then to fail.

    And if you do stow, and oponent doesnt daze, you lose 0,4s .... its not the end of the world in fact, it doesnt matter almost at all.

    And whoever said that mirages movespeed on dodge is worse then thiefs swiftness on dodge ..... holly cow no words for you man.
    if you do some basic math you would realize that it takes 4 mirage dodges to cover as much ground as thief will cover with 1 dodge worth of swiftness. and thats not including long range dash from daredevil.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    I didnt ask questions from you, they all were adressed to Trevor, he seems to ignore all my posts.

    >

    That's because you aren't attacking anyone or creating logical fallacies. Although you may be disagreeing with me, you only state your opinions with a supporting comment or two, which is what you're supposed to be doing, and then move on with your day.

    I don't feel a need to respond very often when people have proper conduct, unless I agree with what they are saying and have something to add.

    ~ Cheers

    Its not an answer I was hoping for :disappointed:

    Check the edit.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Why you guys still feed this troll? What he says doesn't even worth any attention. In his world stowing, kiting, los and using environment are no valid plays and for that valid counters. Blocks, stabi, blinding etc are no counterplays. I guess he stands on points double dodge when he see a target watching in his direction and then runs out of ideas what to do to stay alive because nothing else is a counter than dodge, nothing else are valid and skilled plays. Just dodge nohead! If you can't dodge it you can just go afk and stop fighting the target because you lost already, yes sir that is how the game works

    in bronze!
    Just let him talk to himself !
    Mirage dodgespeed is only to make Mirage able to move with a dodge like every other class can, it doesn't add any more movement than all other classes have with a dodge. Also claiming Mirage is faster than Thief... i mean rly he can't even get convinced by the obvious, stop wasting your time on him! I guess he is a close friend to the mouse guy complaining about Halos

    You still have yet to explain how you stow cancel to prevent an instant interrupt. In fact, strangely whenever that gaping flaw in your argument ,that completely destroys it gets brought up, you just suddenly go quiet. I assume you have no retort and admit that youre just wrong? Also, you do know that, outside of thieves dash, the distance you cover by dodging, is the same distance you would cover by walking, right?

    read about human reaction time ( The average reaction time is 284 milliseconds. ). it means that from the moment you start the casttime, if you stof weapon after 0,25s. your enemy will make decision to interupt, but he wont notice you stowing, since his reaction time is 284 milisecounds. Im sory man but no human alive can react instantly.

    as for dodges, in combat dodge is better then moving forward and expecially better when you are slowed,chilled,hobbled.

    They dont have to react instantly. If youre planning to do that, youre just gonna cancel your own skill. They have no reason to press the button. Youre basically hoping to predict their action, but you run into the problem that you have too many variables. Reaction time varies from person to person, there is input and network lag, so on and so forth. So, you have a very high likelyhood of trying to stowcancel too late and getting interrupted, or cancelling too early and just giving them a free cancelled skill. Your odds of actually getting the timing right are very low. So, this doesnt really owrk.

    lets assume you play someone with good perfect connection. and you want to interupt important 1/2s casttime skill.
    lets assume also you have above average reaction time of 220 milisec, what it means is that stowing would be best made in 219 milisec, if perfectly made. oponent would be capable of noticing and reacting in abovementioned 220milisec adding up to 439milisec. if done correctly it gives 61milisec of leeway for the person using interupt to make a decision of canceling or not. this also assumes person using MoD has perfect internet connection, has above average reaction time while being 100% focused on interupting the ability.

    if you KNOW that opponent WILL want to cancel your ability, if you stowed properly, you are more likely to succeed then to fail.

    And if you do stow, and oponent doesnt daze, you lose 0,4s .... its not the end of the world in fact, it doesnt matter almost at all.

    And whoever said that mirages movespeed on dodge is worse then thiefs swiftness on dodge ..... holly cow no words for you man.
    if you do some basic math you would realize that it takes 4 mirage dodges to cover as much ground as thief will cover with 1 dodge worth of swiftness. and thats not including long range dash from daredevil.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Why you guys still feed this troll? What he says doesn't even worth any attention. In his world stowing, kiting, los and using environment are no valid plays and for that valid counters. Blocks, stabi, blinding etc are no counterplays. I guess he stands on points double dodge when he see a target watching in his direction and then runs out of ideas what to do to stay alive because nothing else is a counter than dodge, nothing else are valid and skilled plays. Just dodge nohead! If you can't dodge it you can just go afk and stop fighting the target because you lost already, yes sir that is how the game works

    in bronze!
    Just let him talk to himself !
    Mirage dodgespeed is only to make Mirage able to move with a dodge like every other class can, it doesn't add any more movement than all other classes have with a dodge. Also claiming Mirage is faster than Thief... i mean rly he can't even get convinced by the obvious, stop wasting your time on him! I guess he is a close friend to the mouse guy complaining about Halos

    You still have yet to explain how you stow cancel to prevent an instant interrupt. In fact, strangely whenever that gaping flaw in your argument ,that completely destroys it gets brought up, you just suddenly go quiet. I assume you have no retort and admit that youre just wrong? Also, you do know that, outside of thieves dash, the distance you cover by dodging, is the same distance you would cover by walking, right?

    read about human reaction time ( The average reaction time is 284 milliseconds. ). it means that from the moment you start the casttime, if you stof weapon after 0,25s. your enemy will make decision to interupt, but he wont notice you stowing, since his reaction time is 284 milisecounds. Im sory man but no human alive can react instantly.

    as for dodges, in combat dodge is better then moving forward and expecially better when you are slowed,chilled,hobbled.

    They dont have to react instantly. If youre planning to do that, youre just gonna cancel your own skill. They have no reason to press the button. Youre basically hoping to predict their action, but you run into the problem that you have too many variables. Reaction time varies from person to person, there is input and network lag, so on and so forth. So, you have a very high likelyhood of trying to stowcancel too late and getting interrupted, or cancelling too early and just giving them a free cancelled skill. Your odds of actually getting the timing right are very low. So, this doesnt really owrk.

    lets assume you play someone with good perfect connection. and you want to interupt important 1/2s casttime skill.
    lets assume also you have above average reaction time of 220 milisec, what it means is that stowing would be best made in 219 milisec, if perfectly made. oponent would be capable of noticing and reacting in abovementioned 220milisec adding up to 439milisec. if done correctly it gives 61milisec of leeway for the person using interupt to make a decision of canceling or not. this also assumes person using MoD has perfect internet connection, has above average reaction time while being 100% focused on interupting the ability.

    if you KNOW that opponent WILL want to cancel your ability, if you stowed properly, you are more likely to succeed then to fail.

    And if you do stow, and oponent doesnt daze, you lose 0,4s .... its not the end of the world in fact, it doesnt matter almost at all.

    And whoever said that mirages movespeed on dodge is worse then thiefs swiftness on dodge ..... holly cow no words for you man.
    if you do some basic math you would realize that it takes 4 mirage dodges to cover as much ground as thief will cover with 1 dodge worth of swiftness. and thats not including long range dash from daredevil.

    220 is actually probably about average. Im assuming youre taking your stats from the website that specifically doesnt have a way to deal with input and network leg, that skews the numbers upwards, but I suppose we can go with that. Again, the problem is, there is up to 100 ms variance in terms of human reaction time, easily 50 ms variance in network lag, and 20 in input lag. You have to deal with 170 ms variance you cant predict. Now, lets assume you stow at 220 ms. At that point, the enemy mightve already interrupted your skill, or mightve not used their interrupt yet. In fact, thats more likely than hitting the skill at that exact point in time. The other problem is that there is also the fact that auditory reaction time is faster, and stowing has a distinct sound, so they likely just dont end up using their interrupt.

    No, you are more likely to fail than to succeed. You need to get lucky, because whatever point you choose in that 170 ms variance, the difference between visual and auditory reaction time means youre likely to cancel your own skill, or likely to fail to stow in time. While youre unlikely to time it right. And no, you lose 4 seconds. Skills that you cancel yourself or that cant finish executing go on a baseline 4 second cooldown. 4 seconds is a lot. Its enough time for mirage to kill you, even.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2019

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    I didnt ask questions from you, they all were adressed to Trevor, he seems to ignore all my posts.

    >

    That's because you aren't attacking anyone or creating logical fallacies. Although you may be disagreeing with me, you only state your opinions with a supporting comment or two, which is what you're supposed to be doing, and then move on with your day.

    I don't feel a need to respond very often when people have proper conduct, unless I agree with what they are saying and have something to add.

    ~ Cheers

    Its not an answer I was hoping for :disappointed:

    Check the edit.

    Bravan never been mesmer main nor mirage main. I remember him for mesmer hate posts all around and everyone claimed that he is mesmer hater just like you.
    Mantra itself feeling useless without meaningful traits that support it, there are better utilities than it is.
    About IH+ambushes on condi, thats only a problem because of multiple hitting nature of the ambush, that procs bleeds, on hybrid it doesnt feel as opressive as this deadshot/wanderer crit chance amulets,not even close. That is a must have to be looked at, as mesmer main I see this clear that need a fix asap to stop this endless complaints, I would even suggest to make scepter ambush as one hit ability like staff ambush. Staff base duration slightly shaved on clones at least. I even suggested how to solve the issue with IH and clones. Fact is - ambush from the mesmer feels really underwhelming and actually its really weak, axe ambush got slaughtered and it does exact same damage as a clone, much meh. But overall without IH mirage would be a pretty dead spec, without it its just cant exist IMO.
    An example : just by spamming scepter ambush you will get barraged by crits from clones and stacking insane bleed amounts, when other ambushes wouldnt benefit from it much, axe to some extent but its kinda weak rn. Condi duration amulets are also at fault, never should have been introduced.
    I think condi mirage need to be looked at namely : scepter ambush and staff. Power mesmer really need a hand, at least revert unjustified nerfs :angry:

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2019

    CI has been in the game with a 2s immob since mid 2013: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chaotic_Interruption

    In that state of balance even an "interrupt build" would only have about 5-6 CC's over about a 40s time period.
    Chaos Storm
    Magic Bullet x2
    Mantra of Distraction x2 charges
    Diversion 1-4 depending on clones

    Now there were also trade offs, taking CI cost you either Illusionary Persona (shatter effect on self) or damage as you couldn't take IP and damage traits in domination and clone generation in duelling. Mantras also took over 3s to cast and you couldn't dodge while doing this.

    In this iteration CI and mantra was balanced as you had less resources to interrupt with and higher trade offs for taking interrupts and their associated traits.

    Fast forward to the current iteration of Arena Net and their idea of balance and we have a different state where over about a 40s period of time you will have:
    Chaos Storm x2 (+1 on heal)
    Magic bullet x3 (can have x4 with chain rupts and trait)
    Mantra of Distraction x4 charges
    Diversion 2-8 depending on clones (diversion recharges by 15s when casting mantra)
    If you were in a power build as per original lock down build using sword you can add another 8 or so from mirage thrust.

    Chaotic Interruption by contrast barely changed, it received might and a 2nd boon at specialisation update where it was still considered fine as CC hadn't been crept to cuckoo levels. Something else did also change though, we got expertise so now those condition duration can get increased so that 2s immob becomes 3s, we also got annulment sigil that rips stab as a priority, whoever put the green light on that should probably be told not to do it again as stability is an incredibly important and (supposed to be) rare boon. The mantra now also casts under 3s and you can dodge while casting now to prevent any counterplay.
    Edit: On top of this you have more damage from buffs to core over expansions as well as various aspects of the elite specs, mirage being one of the more egregious.

    The question everyone needs to really ask themselves is are you happy with this much CC being in the game?

    If you're happy with it then sure nerf CI and every on CC trait or interrupt trait into the floor and below, break out the guy who invented the abomination of balance that is sbooning and sic'em onto it.

    If you're not happy with it then maybe you should be actively telling the devs you are not happy with the power creeped mess and spamfiesta that this game has become. Where every measure of skilful game play has been removed, dumbed down or mutilated.

    The problem is not JUST MoD or CI or Chaos storm (edit) or elite specs, it's all of it. It's the successive power creep of HoT and everyone embracing it, finding excuses for the creep and patting ANet on the back for maintaining this power level. You showed them power creep is tolerated so when PoF came around and took it to the next level you shouldn't have been surprised by what you got.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2019

    @apharma.3741 said:
    CI has been in the game with a 2s immob since mid 2013: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chaotic_Interruption

    In that state of balance even an "interrupt build" would only have about 5-6 CC's over about a 40s time period.
    Chaos Storm
    Magic Bullet x2
    Mantra of Distraction x2 charges
    Diversion 1-4 depending on clones

    Now there were also trade offs, taking CI cost you either Illusionary Persona (shatter effect on self) or damage as you couldn't take IP and damage traits in domination and clone generation in duelling. Mantras also took over 3s to cast and you couldn't dodge while doing this.

    In this iteration CI and mantra was balanced as you had less resources to interrupt with and higher trade offs for taking interrupts and their associated traits.

    Fast forward to the current iteration of Arena Net and their idea of balance and we have a different state where over about a 40s period of time you will have:
    Chaos Storm x2 (+1 on heal)
    Magic bullet x3 (can have x4 with chain rupts and trait)
    Mantra of Distraction x4 charges
    Diversion 2-8 depending on clones (diversion recharges by 15s when casting mantra)
    If you were in a power build as per original lock down build using sword you can add another 8 or so from mirage thrust.

    Chaotic Interruption by contrast barely changed, it received might and a 2nd boon at specialisation update where it was still considered fine as CC hadn't been crept to cuckoo levels. Something else did also change though, we got expertise so now those condition duration can get increased so that 2s immob becomes 3s, we also got annulment sigil that rips stab as a priority, whoever put the green light on that should probably be told not to do it again as stability is an incredibly important and (supposed to be) rare boon. The mantra now also casts under 3s and you can dodge while casting now to prevent any counterplay.
    Edit: On top of this you have more damage from buffs to core over expansions as well as various aspects of the elite specs, mirage being one of the more egregious.

    The question everyone needs to really ask themselves is are you happy with this much CC being in the game?

    If you're happy with it then sure nerf CI and every on CC trait or interrupt trait into the floor and below, break out the guy who invented the abomination of balance that is sbooning and sic'em onto it.

    If you're not happy with it then maybe you should be actively telling the devs you are not happy with the power creeped mess and spamfiesta that this game has become. Where every measure of skilful game play has been removed, dumbed down or mutilated.

    The problem is not JUST MoD or CI or Chaos storm (edit) or elite specs, it's all of it. It's the successive power creep of HoT and everyone embracing it, finding excuses for the creep and patting ANet on the back for maintaining this power level. You showed them power creep is tolerated so when PoF came around and took it to the next level you shouldn't have been surprised by what you got.

    Sry but no, CI never was a balanced trait even without Mantra it was at least problematic. With Mantra it is totally insane. An instant lock down should not exist, no matter how much cd it has. Mantra was op with stun and it was even more op with immob in addition to daze or stun. And don't say Mesmer had no dmg when taking chaos. The old lock down Mesmer just as current Mesmers had/ have still more than enough dmg even when taking one defensive traitline. Current core Mantra Mesmer still can oneshot most targets with inspiration just as a stealthspam chaosline pu core Mes can. Even when a chaos Mesmer can't oneshot totally tanky targets, the burst was/is still high enough to pressure the target very hard and make the Mesmer highly favored in a fight when hit a lucky interrupt on autoattack and immob so target need to use stunbreak+condiremove (at least every class doesn't have a teleport stunbreak out of dmg range) to avoid the burst. Since the gs burst is possible to do in under 1 secs it is immpossible to remove the daze/stun and the immob right on time.

    CI+Mantra rly barely have any counterplay because interrupting autoattacks is enough, means you rly would need to cover every single play over the whole fight duration by one of the 10 counters i listed for Mantra alone. Means pretty much don't fight the Mesmer at all because no one can perma cover autoattacks/ every single skill you wanna use vs the Mesmer.

    Taking Mantra out of the math we are still left with an interupt trait giving so much reward that braindead spamming (not instant) cc and hope for a lucky interrupt on ONLY autoattacks is enough to flip the fight in Mesmers favor or even completely win it. Same problem we had with Pulm. Impact on Thief pre nerf when the dmg could crit and was so high, that spamming it and hope for some autoattack interrupt was rewarding enough for the Thief to use all initiative on it. Don't you remember all the pro Headshotspammer pre nerf of Pulm.Impact?

    CI itself is and always was highly problematic without Mantra already, because interrupt traits aren't allowed to be that strong that interrupting an autoattack accidently/ random by mindlessly spamming cc is already enough to win the fight (and Mesmer always had enough cc more than dodges and surely enough to make one of it hit by accident on autoattack even when played bad). If Anet is able to make interrupt traits not proc on autoattack than interrupt traits could be designed a bit stronger than currently but atm it shouldn't be stronger than Powerblock what has laughable dmg, no killer condieffect and the main part (higher cd on interrupted skills) doesn't even work on autoattacks or skills without any cd.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:
    You showed them power creep is tolerated so when PoF came around and took it to the next level you shouldn't have been surprised by what you got.

    Remind me when everyone told them EM shouldnt be released but it was, also everyone defend their broken specs and enjoy it, heh.
    Also where I can find annulment boon remove priority if you say it has stab removal as first priority?

  • TAIKA.1903TAIKA.1903 Member ✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Sry but no, CI never was a balanced trait even without Mantra it was at least problematic. With Mantra it is totally insane. An instant lock down should not exist, no matter how much cd it has. Mantra was op with stun and it was even more op with immob in addition to daze or stun. And don't say Mesmer had no dmg when taking chaos. The old lock down Mesmer just as current Mesmers had/ have still more than enough dmg even when taking one defensive traitline. Current core Mantra Mesmer still can oneshot most targets with inspiration just as a stealthspam chaosline pu core Mes can. Even when a chaos Mesmer can't oneshot totally tanky targets, the burst was/is still high enough to pressure the target very hard and make the Mesmer highly favored in a fight when hit a lucky interrupt on autoattack and immob so target need to use stunbreak+condiremove (at least every class doesn't have a teleport stunbreak out of dmg range) to avoid the burst. Since the gs burst is possible to do in under 1 secs it is immpossible to remove the daze/stun and the immob right on time.

    I agree lots of u said before, but I disagree this one. CI+MOD was a bad build because there was a stun trait in domination before. And I could said, only me play this CI+MOD+ power Chrono about 6 seasons before in plat. Because if mesmers wanna one shot people, they would choice domination and dueling because they do not have to care if they could interrupt target or not. They do not have to check or guess if enemy is casting or would cast at next sec. And there are lots of good traits for dealing damage in domination and dueling.

    If a power mesmer choices the Choas, that means he can't one shot anyone.
    In my experience, I need 2~3 interrupts when I 1v1.
    When I did interrupt them, I must have damage skills or I just stand there, auto-attack and then waste the chance.
    (Please remeber, power mesmers have to wait about 10 sec for a burst, if I did not interrupt them or interrupt them at wrong time, all I can do is gs1 them. But if I hold my burst and wait for interrupt, most of time all I can do is auto-attack, too. that is why I said most of mesmers would not choice CI+MOD before. It is so useless in some situations.)

    The reason I played CI+MOD before is for teamfights, most of time, even if I stun good players (plat1~legendary), they still have skills for breaking stun.
    But if I focused on their casting time and did interrupt, they couldn't just run away with stunbreak skills, because they got immobilized.

    But as I said, I must choice Chaos trait, that means I can choice only dueling or domination for the last trait I can take.
    You must know mesmers have to focus on interrupting and then CI would be good. If mesmers just MOD randomly, CI would become a useless thing.

    I just want you know if CI+MOD is OP, it can't stay in gw2 since 2013. People hate it now because CI+MOD+pistol trait+condi mirage can create so many kinds of condi and people can't clean all of them even they bring condi clean skills. But for power mesmers, CI+MOD is ok.

    Whatsoever, anet already think CI is unbalance...., I just hope they would only remove the immobilize.
    (But I guess they would remove CI forever.... sigh... So tired.)

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TAIKA.1903 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Sry but no, CI never was a balanced trait even without Mantra it was at least problematic. With Mantra it is totally insane. An instant lock down should not exist, no matter how much cd it has. Mantra was op with stun and it was even more op with immob in addition to daze or stun. And don't say Mesmer had no dmg when taking chaos. The old lock down Mesmer just as current Mesmers had/ have still more than enough dmg even when taking one defensive traitline. Current core Mantra Mesmer still can oneshot most targets with inspiration just as a stealthspam chaosline pu core Mes can. Even when a chaos Mesmer can't oneshot totally tanky targets, the burst was/is still high enough to pressure the target very hard and make the Mesmer highly favored in a fight when hit a lucky interrupt on autoattack and immob so target need to use stunbreak+condiremove (at least every class doesn't have a teleport stunbreak out of dmg range) to avoid the burst. Since the gs burst is possible to do in under 1 secs it is immpossible to remove the daze/stun and the immob right on time.

    I agree lots of u said before, but I disagree this one. CI+MOD was a bad build because there was a stun trait in domination before. And I could said, only me play this CI+MOD+ power Chrono about 6 seasons before in plat. Because if mesmers wanna one shot people, they would choice domination and dueling because they do not have to care if they could interrupt target or not. They do not have to check or guess if enemy is casting or would cast at next sec. And there are lots of good traits for dealing damage in domination and dueling.

    If a power mesmer choices the Choas, that means he can't one shot anyone.
    In my experience, I need 2~3 interrupts when I 1v1.
    When I did interrupt them, I must have damage skills or I just stand there, auto-attack and then waste the chance.
    (Please remeber, power mesmers have to wait about 10 sec for a burst, if I did not interrupt them or interrupt them at wrong time, all I can do is gs1 them. But if I hold my burst and wait for interrupt, most of time all I can do is auto-attack, too. that is why I said most of mesmers would not choice CI+MOD before. It is so useless in some situations.)

    The reason I played CI+MOD before is for teamfights, most of time, even if I stun good players (plat1~legendary), they still have skills for breaking stun.
    But if I focused on their casting time and did interrupt, they couldn't just run away with stunbreak skills, because they got immobilized.

    But as I said, I must choice Chaos trait, that means I can choice only dueling or domination for the last trait I can take.
    You must know mesmers have to focus on interrupting and then CI would be good. If mesmers just MOD randomly, CI would become a useless thing.

    I just want you know if CI+MOD is OP, it can't stay in gw2 since 2013. People hate it now because CI+MOD+pistol trait+condi mirage can create so many kinds of condi and people can't clean all of them even they bring condi clean skills. But for power mesmers, CI+MOD is ok.

    Whatsoever, anet already think CI is unbalance...., I just hope they would only remove the immobilize.
    (But I guess they would remove CI forever.... sigh... So tired.)

    You are right, that the oneshot Mes using Mantra of Distraction wth a Stun in old CS trait in Domination was also broken. I even said that myself. The reason is just the same: instant range lock down. In these builds Mantra wasn't used for intrrupts at all, it was used for a lock down to hit other dmg skills. But that something else was also broken is no argument against that Ci was problematic too. Both traits now got addressed and that is one of the few changes i think Anet did good with. Yes my first reaction to the complete disable was the same: What a bad way of balancing. I know it is a temporary hotfix but would it be so much more work to only disable the immob and not the whole trait? Maybe there are problems with only disable the immob, i dunno.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @TAIKA.1903 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Sry but no, CI never was a balanced trait even without Mantra it was at least problematic. With Mantra it is totally insane. An instant lock down should not exist, no matter how much cd it has. Mantra was op with stun and it was even more op with immob in addition to daze or stun. And don't say Mesmer had no dmg when taking chaos. The old lock down Mesmer just as current Mesmers had/ have still more than enough dmg even when taking one defensive traitline. Current core Mantra Mesmer still can oneshot most targets with inspiration just as a stealthspam chaosline pu core Mes can. Even when a chaos Mesmer can't oneshot totally tanky targets, the burst was/is still high enough to pressure the target very hard and make the Mesmer highly favored in a fight when hit a lucky interrupt on autoattack and immob so target need to use stunbreak+condiremove (at least every class doesn't have a teleport stunbreak out of dmg range) to avoid the burst. Since the gs burst is possible to do in under 1 secs it is immpossible to remove the daze/stun and the immob right on time.

    I agree lots of u said before, but I disagree this one. CI+MOD was a bad build because there was a stun trait in domination before. And I could said, only me play this CI+MOD+ power Chrono about 6 seasons before in plat. Because if mesmers wanna one shot people, they would choice domination and dueling because they do not have to care if they could interrupt target or not. They do not have to check or guess if enemy is casting or would cast at next sec. And there are lots of good traits for dealing damage in domination and dueling.

    If a power mesmer choices the Choas, that means he can't one shot anyone.
    In my experience, I need 2~3 interrupts when I 1v1.
    When I did interrupt them, I must have damage skills or I just stand there, auto-attack and then waste the chance.
    (Please remeber, power mesmers have to wait about 10 sec for a burst, if I did not interrupt them or interrupt them at wrong time, all I can do is gs1 them. But if I hold my burst and wait for interrupt, most of time all I can do is auto-attack, too. that is why I said most of mesmers would not choice CI+MOD before. It is so useless in some situations.)

    The reason I played CI+MOD before is for teamfights, most of time, even if I stun good players (plat1~legendary), they still have skills for breaking stun.
    But if I focused on their casting time and did interrupt, they couldn't just run away with stunbreak skills, because they got immobilized.

    But as I said, I must choice Chaos trait, that means I can choice only dueling or domination for the last trait I can take.
    You must know mesmers have to focus on interrupting and then CI would be good. If mesmers just MOD randomly, CI would become a useless thing.

    I just want you know if CI+MOD is OP, it can't stay in gw2 since 2013. People hate it now because CI+MOD+pistol trait+condi mirage can create so many kinds of condi and people can't clean all of them even they bring condi clean skills. But for power mesmers, CI+MOD is ok.

    Whatsoever, anet already think CI is unbalance...., I just hope they would only remove the immobilize.
    (But I guess they would remove CI forever.... sigh... So tired.)

    You are right, that the oneshot Mes using Mantra of Distraction wth a Stun in old CS trait in Domination was also broken. I even said that myself. The reason is just the same: instant range lock down. In these builds Mantra wasn't used for intrrupts at all, it was used for a lock down to hit other dmg skills. But that something else was also broken is no argument against that Ci was problematic too. Both traits now got addressed and that is one of the few changes i think Anet did good with. Yes my first reaction to the complete disable was the same: What a bad way of balancing. I know it is a temporary hotfix but would it be so much more work to only disable the immob and not the whole trait? Maybe there are problems with only disable the immob, i dunno.

    They can disable traits without need to update the game(patch).
    Without a stun/immobilize power burst is nearly impossible to land, unless they are willingly eat it without evading/blocking/whatnot. Missing/not killing with a burst for glassy mesmer means he most likely get killed himself.
    Aned seen @Lincolnbeard.1735 and added conversion from daze to stun as he suggested, at least somewhere to help with a burst landing.
    I still have well written moment in my memory from Helseth's stream during core days without this CS trait, it was on temple of the silent storm, he was raging the entire game because couldnt land his burst on anyone :P

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @TAIKA.1903 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Sry but no, CI never was a balanced trait even without Mantra it was at least problematic. With Mantra it is totally insane. An instant lock down should not exist, no matter how much cd it has. Mantra was op with stun and it was even more op with immob in addition to daze or stun. And don't say Mesmer had no dmg when taking chaos. The old lock down Mesmer just as current Mesmers had/ have still more than enough dmg even when taking one defensive traitline. Current core Mantra Mesmer still can oneshot most targets with inspiration just as a stealthspam chaosline pu core Mes can. Even when a chaos Mesmer can't oneshot totally tanky targets, the burst was/is still high enough to pressure the target very hard and make the Mesmer highly favored in a fight when hit a lucky interrupt on autoattack and immob so target need to use stunbreak+condiremove (at least every class doesn't have a teleport stunbreak out of dmg range) to avoid the burst. Since the gs burst is possible to do in under 1 secs it is immpossible to remove the daze/stun and the immob right on time.

    I agree lots of u said before, but I disagree this one. CI+MOD was a bad build because there was a stun trait in domination before. And I could said, only me play this CI+MOD+ power Chrono about 6 seasons before in plat. Because if mesmers wanna one shot people, they would choice domination and dueling because they do not have to care if they could interrupt target or not. They do not have to check or guess if enemy is casting or would cast at next sec. And there are lots of good traits for dealing damage in domination and dueling.

    If a power mesmer choices the Choas, that means he can't one shot anyone.
    In my experience, I need 2~3 interrupts when I 1v1.
    When I did interrupt them, I must have damage skills or I just stand there, auto-attack and then waste the chance.
    (Please remeber, power mesmers have to wait about 10 sec for a burst, if I did not interrupt them or interrupt them at wrong time, all I can do is gs1 them. But if I hold my burst and wait for interrupt, most of time all I can do is auto-attack, too. that is why I said most of mesmers would not choice CI+MOD before. It is so useless in some situations.)

    The reason I played CI+MOD before is for teamfights, most of time, even if I stun good players (plat1~legendary), they still have skills for breaking stun.
    But if I focused on their casting time and did interrupt, they couldn't just run away with stunbreak skills, because they got immobilized.

    But as I said, I must choice Chaos trait, that means I can choice only dueling or domination for the last trait I can take.
    You must know mesmers have to focus on interrupting and then CI would be good. If mesmers just MOD randomly, CI would become a useless thing.

    I just want you know if CI+MOD is OP, it can't stay in gw2 since 2013. People hate it now because CI+MOD+pistol trait+condi mirage can create so many kinds of condi and people can't clean all of them even they bring condi clean skills. But for power mesmers, CI+MOD is ok.

    Whatsoever, anet already think CI is unbalance...., I just hope they would only remove the immobilize.
    (But I guess they would remove CI forever.... sigh... So tired.)

    You are right, that the oneshot Mes using Mantra of Distraction wth a Stun in old CS trait in Domination was also broken. I even said that myself. The reason is just the same: instant range lock down. In these builds Mantra wasn't used for intrrupts at all, it was used for a lock down to hit other dmg skills. But that something else was also broken is no argument against that Ci was problematic too. Both traits now got addressed and that is one of the few changes i think Anet did good with. Yes my first reaction to the complete disable was the same: What a bad way of balancing. I know it is a temporary hotfix but would it be so much more work to only disable the immob and not the whole trait? Maybe there are problems with only disable the immob, i dunno.

    They can disable traits without need to update the game(patch).
    Without a stun/immobilize power burst is nearly impossible to land, unless they are willingly eat it without evading/blocking/whatnot. Missing/not killing with a burst for glassy mesmer means he most likely get killed himself.
    Aned seen @Lincolnbeard.1735 and added conversion from daze to stun as he suggested, at least somewhere to help with a burst landing.
    I still have well written moment in my memory from Helseth's stream during core days without this CS trait, it was on temple of the silent storm, he was raging the entire game because couldnt land his burst on anyone :P

    Ok ty for the information. Still don't see a problem to make a patch to only disable immob but it explains it a little bit at least.
    Didn't they have stun on f3 and Mantra in core days? Hardly remember, i only know Memser was played as Power without Inspiration or Chaos in PvP meta or wasn't played at all in higher ranked/ esl and if yes than only because of portal. Mesmer never had a balance issue worth remembering on Power without one of these low skill ceiling traitlines (Inspiration, Chaos). I only remember few ppl running chaos lock down power in core days in PvP (mostyl trolling in hotjoin or in WvW) and it was always annoying to fight against. I remember Helseth's video from core days saying Mesmer is not viable but i am.
    I know they had stun in Domination since traitline reword right before hot release and i remember that because Powerblock hit with like 7-10k after the traitline patch and needed to be fixed fast.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:
    -snip-

    I dont know what you are discussing here tbh.
    All issues been caused by condi mirage and even without CI, with or without mantra, its still an issue.
    Mad mesmer haters trying to get mesmer nerfed everywhere now, literally.
    Pretty ironically they called mesmer ci "degenerate" when condi thief and spamsmith are still there and get zero attention

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    -snip-

    I dont know what you are discussing here tbh.
    All issues been caused by condi mirage and even without CI, with or without mantra, its still an issue.
    Mad mesmer haters trying to get mesmer nerfed everywhere now, literally.
    Pretty ironically they called mesmer ci "degenerate" when condi thief and spamsmith are still there and get zero attention

    You said Helseth was mad he could not hit his burst on anyone, so i ask if Mesmer didn't have stun on f3/ Mantra before traitline rework short before HoT release because that i cannot remember.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

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