Why you guys hate CI and MOD? Because you do not try to cancel your skills or cast it one by one! - Page 3 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Why you guys hate CI and MOD? Because you do not try to cancel your skills or cast it one by one!

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Comments

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2019

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    -snip-

    I dont know what you are discussing here tbh.
    All issues been caused by condi mirage and even without CI, with or without mantra, its still an issue.
    Mad mesmer haters trying to get mesmer nerfed everywhere now, literally.
    Pretty ironically they called mesmer ci "degenerate" when condi thief and spamsmith are still there and get zero attention

    You said Helseth was mad he could not hit his burst on anyone, so i ask if Mesmer didn't have stun on f3/ Mantra before traitline rework short before HoT release because that i cannot remember.

    No, I meant overall in this thread... :D
    Immob on interrupt ... ye... lame, condi duration is lame but disabling trait for months? Thats savage, ok, we get it.
    About helseth's complaints, ye, I think at these days we had no stun on mantra when he complained, diversion had a chance to stun target then was changed to any daze becoming a stun,that made mantra an instant stun. So basically they are ultimately returned a trait to the state they introduced on the release .
    Edit: mantra alone is fine, without interrupt traits as I said, not worth taking. So I hardly can understand these who complain about it, even then, 1.5s daze may be too much, 1 second would be perfect.

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2019

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @Quadox.7834

    1. Steal happens once and it puts the Thief in melee range upon use, where he becomes very vulnerable. It's natural CD is also much longer and only has 1 cast. You can't compare steal to MOD.

    Good idea, let's remove the port from steal and make mantra of distraction port 1200 range to target instead, so it will put you in a vulnerable position.

    This is a meaningless conversation, I'm not the one who started comparing wildly different skills across professions. My only point is that anet clearly are not principally against having instant interrupts in the game and this argument should therefore be put to rest. It can be "fine" to have instant interrupts as long as they don't do too much (like pseudo-stun via CI).

    1. Zeromis with his team is an exception. He's relying on a lot of teamplay to get away with what he does. You could claim MOD is not mandatory on a Power Shatter build, but in solo/duo only when you aren't Zeromis and don't have an S grade tournament team with you, it's virtually mandatory not for bursting reasons, but for active defense survival mechanism. Those 2x charges of interrupt are as good as 2x blocks if you use them wisely, as well as interrupts vs. revives & stomps & teammates being pressured too heavily in general. and of course it can be utilized to enhance bursting or +ing when it's convenient. Hey, if you're approaching Zeromis level play and don't need it for defensive reasons, more power to you. This effect is similar to how extremely good Ranger players could play glass cannon DPS Soulbeasts with no Signet of Stone, and get away with it just fine. 95% of the Soulbeast community however, needed to use it and viewed it as absolutely mandatory on a glass cannon. Even the listed meta was telling everyone to run sig of stone. Only about 5 people in NA were good enough to get away without it.

    The claim was that MoD is mandatory for power mirage and this is clearly not the case that's all.

    Taking MoD over SoI+SoM is not at all a strictly defensive choice, you overestimate how good mantra is defensively in various situations. MoD is certainly good in some situations like +1s and 1v1s vs classes with little stab, but it isn't good when multiple people are chasing/attacking you, and it fails vs thief in my opinion (which is your biggest counter). Taking SoI gives you access to an extra blind, interrupt, distortion (which also gives multiple mirrors via desert distortion), this is pretty big. I don't think there is such a marked difference in survivability in my experience. And these signets are easier to use than mantra as well, in my opinion.

    1. A design intention does not mean the design intention is functioning as intended. You use the example of Warrior Hammer clearly being designed for flowup CC train styled attack combos vs. MOD being designed for interrupts. Have you tried playing a Hammer Warrior recently? It sucks. The whole design intention is now broken and in no way functional at all. It's too slow, too telegraphed, and doesn't deal enough damage. It isn't realistic at all to attempt to land an Earthshaker or a Hammer #5 knockdown and then swap to an axe to try and land an Eviscerate or something. It's too slow and doesn't work at all.

    I agree with you, this literally isn't even an argument against me. Just as I said, there is a clear intention with hammer (lockdown, setups), and there is a clear intention with mantra (disruption, interrupts). That does not mean that hammer is viable/optimal/good, it means that when/if they rebalance hammer, they will take into account the purpose of it and thus not ruin it.

    You know what does work? You know what works maybe a little bit too well for landing flowup damage combos? A skill that was intended for interrupts, that has a 2 ammo charge with fast cycling CDs, that due to being an instant cast with no animations, is able to be used simultaneously with ANY & ALL other animations and actions used by that player, including large 1HKO damage bursts.

    Nah, mantra on its own doesn't that much with followups, unlike confounding suggestions, pistol stun and CI. I'm not saying that the MoD+CI playstyle is fun or good for the game, I have already provided possible ways to balance and make the interrupt playstyle more fun and interesting. This includes (1) removing CI immob, I've wanted both the immobilize and the random chance blind removed since 2015, however, something does tell me that 90% of the complaints are really rooted in clone condi spam (2) disallow interrupt traits to trigger on autoattacks (3) add indication of charged mantra back on the status bar like before (4) Reduce the daze duration of mantra, at least to how it was before, if not even lower.

    MOD was clearly originally designed with the intention of "landing tiny little rupt pokes here & there"

    Which is why I suggested keeping pure to the purpose by reducing the daze duration (that was powercrept with the removal of confounding suggestions trait) in order to preserve the by anet often lauded "purity of purpose".

    but ends up being used much more often in nuclear powered death spike builds while going balls to the wall offensive, rather than defensively or strategically for GW1 styled rupt play. Considering the intention behind its original design, it seems to have done quite well in our game, being used as a source of offensive powerhouse CC.

    Such an inane overexaggeration, the built that caused the complaints about CI and MoD is not even close to a "nuclear powered death spike build".

    To others: you can absolutely stow weapon to bait mantra, same as with baiting pulmonary impact. Even vs good mesmers.

    To everyone: regardless, it is pointless to even argue like this over minutia, let's instead wait and see if people keep running this apparently completely busted utility with chaotic interruption gone. And that honestly feels like it should be the conclusion/end of the thread for now.

    // Yanim

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @TAIKA.1903 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Sry but no, CI never was a balanced trait even without Mantra it was at least problematic. With Mantra it is totally insane. An instant lock down should not exist, no matter how much cd it has. Mantra was op with stun and it was even more op with immob in addition to daze or stun. And don't say Mesmer had no dmg when taking chaos. The old lock down Mesmer just as current Mesmers had/ have still more than enough dmg even when taking one defensive traitline. Current core Mantra Mesmer still can oneshot most targets with inspiration just as a stealthspam chaosline pu core Mes can. Even when a chaos Mesmer can't oneshot totally tanky targets, the burst was/is still high enough to pressure the target very hard and make the Mesmer highly favored in a fight when hit a lucky interrupt on autoattack and immob so target need to use stunbreak+condiremove (at least every class doesn't have a teleport stunbreak out of dmg range) to avoid the burst. Since the gs burst is possible to do in under 1 secs it is immpossible to remove the daze/stun and the immob right on time.

    I agree lots of u said before, but I disagree this one. CI+MOD was a bad build because there was a stun trait in domination before. And I could said, only me play this CI+MOD+ power Chrono about 6 seasons before in plat. Because if mesmers wanna one shot people, they would choice domination and dueling because they do not have to care if they could interrupt target or not. They do not have to check or guess if enemy is casting or would cast at next sec. And there are lots of good traits for dealing damage in domination and dueling.

    If a power mesmer choices the Choas, that means he can't one shot anyone.
    In my experience, I need 2~3 interrupts when I 1v1.
    When I did interrupt them, I must have damage skills or I just stand there, auto-attack and then waste the chance.
    (Please remeber, power mesmers have to wait about 10 sec for a burst, if I did not interrupt them or interrupt them at wrong time, all I can do is gs1 them. But if I hold my burst and wait for interrupt, most of time all I can do is auto-attack, too. that is why I said most of mesmers would not choice CI+MOD before. It is so useless in some situations.)

    The reason I played CI+MOD before is for teamfights, most of time, even if I stun good players (plat1~legendary), they still have skills for breaking stun.
    But if I focused on their casting time and did interrupt, they couldn't just run away with stunbreak skills, because they got immobilized.

    But as I said, I must choice Chaos trait, that means I can choice only dueling or domination for the last trait I can take.
    You must know mesmers have to focus on interrupting and then CI would be good. If mesmers just MOD randomly, CI would become a useless thing.

    I just want you know if CI+MOD is OP, it can't stay in gw2 since 2013. People hate it now because CI+MOD+pistol trait+condi mirage can create so many kinds of condi and people can't clean all of them even they bring condi clean skills. But for power mesmers, CI+MOD is ok.

    Whatsoever, anet already think CI is unbalance...., I just hope they would only remove the immobilize.
    (But I guess they would remove CI forever.... sigh... So tired.)

    You are right, that the oneshot Mes using Mantra of Distraction wth a Stun in old CS trait in Domination was also broken. I even said that myself. The reason is just the same: instant range lock down. In these builds Mantra wasn't used for intrrupts at all, it was used for a lock down to hit other dmg skills. But that something else was also broken is no argument against that Ci was problematic too. Both traits now got addressed and that is one of the few changes i think Anet did good with. Yes my first reaction to the complete disable was the same: What a bad way of balancing. I know it is a temporary hotfix but would it be so much more work to only disable the immob and not the whole trait? Maybe there are problems with only disable the immob, i dunno.

    They can disable traits without need to update the game(patch).
    Without a stun/immobilize power burst is nearly impossible to land, unless they are willingly eat it without evading/blocking/whatnot. Missing/not killing with a burst for glassy mesmer means he most likely get killed himself.
    Aned seen @Lincolnbeard.1735 and added conversion from daze to stun as he suggested, at least somewhere to help with a burst landing.
    I still have well written moment in my memory from Helseth's stream during core days without this CS trait, it was on temple of the silent storm, he was raging the entire game because couldnt land his burst on anyone :P

    Uh, its really not. The standard combo is you go into stealth from sword 4 (so they cant see the burst coming), then oneshot them out of stealth. Or you blink into a oneshot while they dont see you. Either way, they die before they have the time to react. If anything, stuns or immobilizes just make it go from "incredibly easy to land" to "impossible to not land". Which you really dont want to do with Mesmer burst, which is part of the reason power shatter mesmer doesnt have access to stuns and immobs anymore.

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @TAIKA.1903 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Sry but no, CI never was a balanced trait even without Mantra it was at least problematic. With Mantra it is totally insane. An instant lock down should not exist, no matter how much cd it has. Mantra was op with stun and it was even more op with immob in addition to daze or stun. And don't say Mesmer had no dmg when taking chaos. The old lock down Mesmer just as current Mesmers had/ have still more than enough dmg even when taking one defensive traitline. Current core Mantra Mesmer still can oneshot most targets with inspiration just as a stealthspam chaosline pu core Mes can. Even when a chaos Mesmer can't oneshot totally tanky targets, the burst was/is still high enough to pressure the target very hard and make the Mesmer highly favored in a fight when hit a lucky interrupt on autoattack and immob so target need to use stunbreak+condiremove (at least every class doesn't have a teleport stunbreak out of dmg range) to avoid the burst. Since the gs burst is possible to do in under 1 secs it is immpossible to remove the daze/stun and the immob right on time.

    I agree lots of u said before, but I disagree this one. CI+MOD was a bad build because there was a stun trait in domination before. And I could said, only me play this CI+MOD+ power Chrono about 6 seasons before in plat. Because if mesmers wanna one shot people, they would choice domination and dueling because they do not have to care if they could interrupt target or not. They do not have to check or guess if enemy is casting or would cast at next sec. And there are lots of good traits for dealing damage in domination and dueling.

    If a power mesmer choices the Choas, that means he can't one shot anyone.
    In my experience, I need 2~3 interrupts when I 1v1.
    When I did interrupt them, I must have damage skills or I just stand there, auto-attack and then waste the chance.
    (Please remeber, power mesmers have to wait about 10 sec for a burst, if I did not interrupt them or interrupt them at wrong time, all I can do is gs1 them. But if I hold my burst and wait for interrupt, most of time all I can do is auto-attack, too. that is why I said most of mesmers would not choice CI+MOD before. It is so useless in some situations.)

    The reason I played CI+MOD before is for teamfights, most of time, even if I stun good players (plat1~legendary), they still have skills for breaking stun.
    But if I focused on their casting time and did interrupt, they couldn't just run away with stunbreak skills, because they got immobilized.

    But as I said, I must choice Chaos trait, that means I can choice only dueling or domination for the last trait I can take.
    You must know mesmers have to focus on interrupting and then CI would be good. If mesmers just MOD randomly, CI would become a useless thing.

    I just want you know if CI+MOD is OP, it can't stay in gw2 since 2013. People hate it now because CI+MOD+pistol trait+condi mirage can create so many kinds of condi and people can't clean all of them even they bring condi clean skills. But for power mesmers, CI+MOD is ok.

    Whatsoever, anet already think CI is unbalance...., I just hope they would only remove the immobilize.
    (But I guess they would remove CI forever.... sigh... So tired.)

    You are right, that the oneshot Mes using Mantra of Distraction wth a Stun in old CS trait in Domination was also broken. I even said that myself. The reason is just the same: instant range lock down. In these builds Mantra wasn't used for intrrupts at all, it was used for a lock down to hit other dmg skills. But that something else was also broken is no argument against that Ci was problematic too. Both traits now got addressed and that is one of the few changes i think Anet did good with. Yes my first reaction to the complete disable was the same: What a bad way of balancing. I know it is a temporary hotfix but would it be so much more work to only disable the immob and not the whole trait? Maybe there are problems with only disable the immob, i dunno.

    They can disable traits without need to update the game(patch).
    Without a stun/immobilize power burst is nearly impossible to land, unless they are willingly eat it without evading/blocking/whatnot. Missing/not killing with a burst for glassy mesmer means he most likely get killed himself.
    Aned seen @Lincolnbeard.1735 and added conversion from daze to stun as he suggested, at least somewhere to help with a burst landing.
    I still have well written moment in my memory from Helseth's stream during core days without this CS trait, it was on temple of the silent storm, he was raging the entire game because couldnt land his burst on anyone :P

    Uh, its really not. The standard combo is you go into stealth from sword 4 (so they cant see the burst coming), then oneshot them out of stealth. Or you blink into a oneshot while they dont see you. Either way, they die before they have the time to react. If anything, stuns or immobilizes just make it go from "incredibly easy to land" to "impossible to not land". Which you really dont want to do with Mesmer burst, which is part of the reason power shatter mesmer doesnt have access to stuns and immobs anymore.

    Stealthing with sword 4, incredible. And high-level mesmers often use focus over torch.

    // Yanim

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2019

    @Quadox.7834 said:
    Stealthing with sword 4, incredible. And high-level mesmers often use focus over torch.

    I mean, that's just cherry on top. He also believes mirage dodge's 66% speed boost is better than swiftness.

    I actually want to explain this more.

    The ultimate speedcap is 400, both IC and OOC.

    IC explanation:
    Base speed is 210u/s.
    A dodge lasts 0.75s and it moves 261.45u in this time. In the remaining 0.25s, a mirage moves 52.5u.
    That's 313.95 in total.
    In two seconds, that's 628u. Since you can't dodge a third time, you have the base speed in the third second: meaning you moved 838u in 3 seconds, double dodging perfectly.
    With 3 seconds swiftness, you move exactly 838u, preserving two dodges.
    Conclusion: 3s swiftness > double dodge

    OOC explanation:
    Base speed is 294u/s.
    With swiftness, you are nearly capped with 391u/s.
    With dodge, you move at the cap, 400u/s for 0.75s and 294u/s for 0.25s which equals 373.5u, that's less than a second of swiftness.
    Conclusion: swiftness > dodge

    Let's compare apples to apples.
    A dodgeroll is 300u per 0.75s in every direction while Mirage dodge is 261.45u per 0.75s, going forwards.

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:
    Stealthing with sword 4, incredible. And high-level mesmers often use focus over torch.

    I mean, that's just cherry on top. He also believes mirage dodge's 66% speed boost is better than swiftness.

    Yeah w/e, should have stopped posting here after my longer comment earlier.

    // Yanim

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @TAIKA.1903 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Sry but no, CI never was a balanced trait even without Mantra it was at least problematic. With Mantra it is totally insane. An instant lock down should not exist, no matter how much cd it has. Mantra was op with stun and it was even more op with immob in addition to daze or stun. And don't say Mesmer had no dmg when taking chaos. The old lock down Mesmer just as current Mesmers had/ have still more than enough dmg even when taking one defensive traitline. Current core Mantra Mesmer still can oneshot most targets with inspiration just as a stealthspam chaosline pu core Mes can. Even when a chaos Mesmer can't oneshot totally tanky targets, the burst was/is still high enough to pressure the target very hard and make the Mesmer highly favored in a fight when hit a lucky interrupt on autoattack and immob so target need to use stunbreak+condiremove (at least every class doesn't have a teleport stunbreak out of dmg range) to avoid the burst. Since the gs burst is possible to do in under 1 secs it is immpossible to remove the daze/stun and the immob right on time.

    I agree lots of u said before, but I disagree this one. CI+MOD was a bad build because there was a stun trait in domination before. And I could said, only me play this CI+MOD+ power Chrono about 6 seasons before in plat. Because if mesmers wanna one shot people, they would choice domination and dueling because they do not have to care if they could interrupt target or not. They do not have to check or guess if enemy is casting or would cast at next sec. And there are lots of good traits for dealing damage in domination and dueling.

    If a power mesmer choices the Choas, that means he can't one shot anyone.
    In my experience, I need 2~3 interrupts when I 1v1.
    When I did interrupt them, I must have damage skills or I just stand there, auto-attack and then waste the chance.
    (Please remeber, power mesmers have to wait about 10 sec for a burst, if I did not interrupt them or interrupt them at wrong time, all I can do is gs1 them. But if I hold my burst and wait for interrupt, most of time all I can do is auto-attack, too. that is why I said most of mesmers would not choice CI+MOD before. It is so useless in some situations.)

    The reason I played CI+MOD before is for teamfights, most of time, even if I stun good players (plat1~legendary), they still have skills for breaking stun.
    But if I focused on their casting time and did interrupt, they couldn't just run away with stunbreak skills, because they got immobilized.

    But as I said, I must choice Chaos trait, that means I can choice only dueling or domination for the last trait I can take.
    You must know mesmers have to focus on interrupting and then CI would be good. If mesmers just MOD randomly, CI would become a useless thing.

    I just want you know if CI+MOD is OP, it can't stay in gw2 since 2013. People hate it now because CI+MOD+pistol trait+condi mirage can create so many kinds of condi and people can't clean all of them even they bring condi clean skills. But for power mesmers, CI+MOD is ok.

    Whatsoever, anet already think CI is unbalance...., I just hope they would only remove the immobilize.
    (But I guess they would remove CI forever.... sigh... So tired.)

    You are right, that the oneshot Mes using Mantra of Distraction wth a Stun in old CS trait in Domination was also broken. I even said that myself. The reason is just the same: instant range lock down. In these builds Mantra wasn't used for intrrupts at all, it was used for a lock down to hit other dmg skills. But that something else was also broken is no argument against that Ci was problematic too. Both traits now got addressed and that is one of the few changes i think Anet did good with. Yes my first reaction to the complete disable was the same: What a bad way of balancing. I know it is a temporary hotfix but would it be so much more work to only disable the immob and not the whole trait? Maybe there are problems with only disable the immob, i dunno.

    They can disable traits without need to update the game(patch).
    Without a stun/immobilize power burst is nearly impossible to land, unless they are willingly eat it without evading/blocking/whatnot. Missing/not killing with a burst for glassy mesmer means he most likely get killed himself.
    Aned seen @Lincolnbeard.1735 and added conversion from daze to stun as he suggested, at least somewhere to help with a burst landing.
    I still have well written moment in my memory from Helseth's stream during core days without this CS trait, it was on temple of the silent storm, he was raging the entire game because couldnt land his burst on anyone :P

    Uh, its really not. The standard combo is you go into stealth from sword 4 (so they cant see the burst coming), then oneshot them out of stealth. Or you blink into a oneshot while they dont see you. Either way, they die before they have the time to react. If anything, stuns or immobilizes just make it go from "incredibly easy to land" to "impossible to not land". Which you really dont want to do with Mesmer burst, which is part of the reason power shatter mesmer doesnt have access to stuns and immobs anymore.

    Stealthing with sword 4, incredible. And high-level mesmers often use focus over torch.

    Right, torch 4. I uh, guess I have played too much Rev, so the words "Sword 4" has gotten engrained in my brain. Still, the point stands. And Focus has been used, but then you have CC to do the burst with even less counterplay. So, its not like Mesmer is lacking a way to burst people.

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @TAIKA.1903 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Sry but no, CI never was a balanced trait even without Mantra it was at least problematic. With Mantra it is totally insane. An instant lock down should not exist, no matter how much cd it has. Mantra was op with stun and it was even more op with immob in addition to daze or stun. And don't say Mesmer had no dmg when taking chaos. The old lock down Mesmer just as current Mesmers had/ have still more than enough dmg even when taking one defensive traitline. Current core Mantra Mesmer still can oneshot most targets with inspiration just as a stealthspam chaosline pu core Mes can. Even when a chaos Mesmer can't oneshot totally tanky targets, the burst was/is still high enough to pressure the target very hard and make the Mesmer highly favored in a fight when hit a lucky interrupt on autoattack and immob so target need to use stunbreak+condiremove (at least every class doesn't have a teleport stunbreak out of dmg range) to avoid the burst. Since the gs burst is possible to do in under 1 secs it is immpossible to remove the daze/stun and the immob right on time.

    I agree lots of u said before, but I disagree this one. CI+MOD was a bad build because there was a stun trait in domination before. And I could said, only me play this CI+MOD+ power Chrono about 6 seasons before in plat. Because if mesmers wanna one shot people, they would choice domination and dueling because they do not have to care if they could interrupt target or not. They do not have to check or guess if enemy is casting or would cast at next sec. And there are lots of good traits for dealing damage in domination and dueling.

    If a power mesmer choices the Choas, that means he can't one shot anyone.
    In my experience, I need 2~3 interrupts when I 1v1.
    When I did interrupt them, I must have damage skills or I just stand there, auto-attack and then waste the chance.
    (Please remeber, power mesmers have to wait about 10 sec for a burst, if I did not interrupt them or interrupt them at wrong time, all I can do is gs1 them. But if I hold my burst and wait for interrupt, most of time all I can do is auto-attack, too. that is why I said most of mesmers would not choice CI+MOD before. It is so useless in some situations.)

    The reason I played CI+MOD before is for teamfights, most of time, even if I stun good players (plat1~legendary), they still have skills for breaking stun.
    But if I focused on their casting time and did interrupt, they couldn't just run away with stunbreak skills, because they got immobilized.

    But as I said, I must choice Chaos trait, that means I can choice only dueling or domination for the last trait I can take.
    You must know mesmers have to focus on interrupting and then CI would be good. If mesmers just MOD randomly, CI would become a useless thing.

    I just want you know if CI+MOD is OP, it can't stay in gw2 since 2013. People hate it now because CI+MOD+pistol trait+condi mirage can create so many kinds of condi and people can't clean all of them even they bring condi clean skills. But for power mesmers, CI+MOD is ok.

    Whatsoever, anet already think CI is unbalance...., I just hope they would only remove the immobilize.
    (But I guess they would remove CI forever.... sigh... So tired.)

    You are right, that the oneshot Mes using Mantra of Distraction wth a Stun in old CS trait in Domination was also broken. I even said that myself. The reason is just the same: instant range lock down. In these builds Mantra wasn't used for intrrupts at all, it was used for a lock down to hit other dmg skills. But that something else was also broken is no argument against that Ci was problematic too. Both traits now got addressed and that is one of the few changes i think Anet did good with. Yes my first reaction to the complete disable was the same: What a bad way of balancing. I know it is a temporary hotfix but would it be so much more work to only disable the immob and not the whole trait? Maybe there are problems with only disable the immob, i dunno.

    They can disable traits without need to update the game(patch).
    Without a stun/immobilize power burst is nearly impossible to land, unless they are willingly eat it without evading/blocking/whatnot. Missing/not killing with a burst for glassy mesmer means he most likely get killed himself.
    Aned seen @Lincolnbeard.1735 and added conversion from daze to stun as he suggested, at least somewhere to help with a burst landing.
    I still have well written moment in my memory from Helseth's stream during core days without this CS trait, it was on temple of the silent storm, he was raging the entire game because couldnt land his burst on anyone :P

    Uh, its really not. The standard combo is you go into stealth from sword 4 (so they cant see the burst coming), then oneshot them out of stealth. Or you blink into a oneshot while they dont see you. Either way, they die before they have the time to react. If anything, stuns or immobilizes just make it go from "incredibly easy to land" to "impossible to not land". Which you really dont want to do with Mesmer burst, which is part of the reason power shatter mesmer doesnt have access to stuns and immobs anymore.

    Stealthing with sword 4, incredible. And high-level mesmers often use focus over torch.

    Right, torch 4. I uh, guess I have played too much Rev, so the words "Sword 4" has gotten engrained in my brain. Still, the point stands. And Focus has been used, but then you have CC to do the burst with even less counterplay. So, its not like Mesmer is lacking a way to burst people.

    You need to cc with focus, swap to gs, use gs2 (0.75 secs base cast), shatter, possibly gs3, for that combo. Which my grandma could avoid.

    // Yanim

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2019

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @TAIKA.1903 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Sry but no, CI never was a balanced trait even without Mantra it was at least problematic. With Mantra it is totally insane. An instant lock down should not exist, no matter how much cd it has. Mantra was op with stun and it was even more op with immob in addition to daze or stun. And don't say Mesmer had no dmg when taking chaos. The old lock down Mesmer just as current Mesmers had/ have still more than enough dmg even when taking one defensive traitline. Current core Mantra Mesmer still can oneshot most targets with inspiration just as a stealthspam chaosline pu core Mes can. Even when a chaos Mesmer can't oneshot totally tanky targets, the burst was/is still high enough to pressure the target very hard and make the Mesmer highly favored in a fight when hit a lucky interrupt on autoattack and immob so target need to use stunbreak+condiremove (at least every class doesn't have a teleport stunbreak out of dmg range) to avoid the burst. Since the gs burst is possible to do in under 1 secs it is immpossible to remove the daze/stun and the immob right on time.

    I agree lots of u said before, but I disagree this one. CI+MOD was a bad build because there was a stun trait in domination before. And I could said, only me play this CI+MOD+ power Chrono about 6 seasons before in plat. Because if mesmers wanna one shot people, they would choice domination and dueling because they do not have to care if they could interrupt target or not. They do not have to check or guess if enemy is casting or would cast at next sec. And there are lots of good traits for dealing damage in domination and dueling.

    If a power mesmer choices the Choas, that means he can't one shot anyone.
    In my experience, I need 2~3 interrupts when I 1v1.
    When I did interrupt them, I must have damage skills or I just stand there, auto-attack and then waste the chance.
    (Please remeber, power mesmers have to wait about 10 sec for a burst, if I did not interrupt them or interrupt them at wrong time, all I can do is gs1 them. But if I hold my burst and wait for interrupt, most of time all I can do is auto-attack, too. that is why I said most of mesmers would not choice CI+MOD before. It is so useless in some situations.)

    The reason I played CI+MOD before is for teamfights, most of time, even if I stun good players (plat1~legendary), they still have skills for breaking stun.
    But if I focused on their casting time and did interrupt, they couldn't just run away with stunbreak skills, because they got immobilized.

    But as I said, I must choice Chaos trait, that means I can choice only dueling or domination for the last trait I can take.
    You must know mesmers have to focus on interrupting and then CI would be good. If mesmers just MOD randomly, CI would become a useless thing.

    I just want you know if CI+MOD is OP, it can't stay in gw2 since 2013. People hate it now because CI+MOD+pistol trait+condi mirage can create so many kinds of condi and people can't clean all of them even they bring condi clean skills. But for power mesmers, CI+MOD is ok.

    Whatsoever, anet already think CI is unbalance...., I just hope they would only remove the immobilize.
    (But I guess they would remove CI forever.... sigh... So tired.)

    You are right, that the oneshot Mes using Mantra of Distraction wth a Stun in old CS trait in Domination was also broken. I even said that myself. The reason is just the same: instant range lock down. In these builds Mantra wasn't used for intrrupts at all, it was used for a lock down to hit other dmg skills. But that something else was also broken is no argument against that Ci was problematic too. Both traits now got addressed and that is one of the few changes i think Anet did good with. Yes my first reaction to the complete disable was the same: What a bad way of balancing. I know it is a temporary hotfix but would it be so much more work to only disable the immob and not the whole trait? Maybe there are problems with only disable the immob, i dunno.

    They can disable traits without need to update the game(patch).
    Without a stun/immobilize power burst is nearly impossible to land, unless they are willingly eat it without evading/blocking/whatnot. Missing/not killing with a burst for glassy mesmer means he most likely get killed himself.
    Aned seen @Lincolnbeard.1735 and added conversion from daze to stun as he suggested, at least somewhere to help with a burst landing.
    I still have well written moment in my memory from Helseth's stream during core days without this CS trait, it was on temple of the silent storm, he was raging the entire game because couldnt land his burst on anyone :P

    Uh, its really not. The standard combo is you go into stealth from sword 4 (so they cant see the burst coming), then oneshot them out of stealth. Or you blink into a oneshot while they dont see you. Either way, they die before they have the time to react. If anything, stuns or immobilizes just make it go from "incredibly easy to land" to "impossible to not land". Which you really dont want to do with Mesmer burst, which is part of the reason power shatter mesmer doesnt have access to stuns and immobs anymore.

    Stealthing with sword 4, incredible. And high-level mesmers often use focus over torch.

    Right, torch 4. I uh, guess I have played too much Rev, so the words "Sword 4" has gotten engrained in my brain. Still, the point stands. And Focus has been used, but then you have CC to do the burst with even less counterplay. So, its not like Mesmer is lacking a way to burst people.

    You need to cc with focus, swap to gs, use gs2 (0.75 secs base cast), shatter, possibly gs3, for that combo. Which my grandma could avoid.

    While theyre CCd and in fact, cannot avoid it. Alternatively, you do the blink or stealth combo, precast GS2 while they dont see it, then hit them for the full damage in about .2 seconds. Faster than human reaction time. Which is why I prefer Torch over Focus, with Focus if they have a stunbreak they can avoid the burst if they are fast. With stealth they have to predict correctly. Something they will have quite a lot of trouble doing.

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2019

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @TAIKA.1903 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Sry but no, CI never was a balanced trait even without Mantra it was at least problematic. With Mantra it is totally insane. An instant lock down should not exist, no matter how much cd it has. Mantra was op with stun and it was even more op with immob in addition to daze or stun. And don't say Mesmer had no dmg when taking chaos. The old lock down Mesmer just as current Mesmers had/ have still more than enough dmg even when taking one defensive traitline. Current core Mantra Mesmer still can oneshot most targets with inspiration just as a stealthspam chaosline pu core Mes can. Even when a chaos Mesmer can't oneshot totally tanky targets, the burst was/is still high enough to pressure the target very hard and make the Mesmer highly favored in a fight when hit a lucky interrupt on autoattack and immob so target need to use stunbreak+condiremove (at least every class doesn't have a teleport stunbreak out of dmg range) to avoid the burst. Since the gs burst is possible to do in under 1 secs it is immpossible to remove the daze/stun and the immob right on time.

    I agree lots of u said before, but I disagree this one. CI+MOD was a bad build because there was a stun trait in domination before. And I could said, only me play this CI+MOD+ power Chrono about 6 seasons before in plat. Because if mesmers wanna one shot people, they would choice domination and dueling because they do not have to care if they could interrupt target or not. They do not have to check or guess if enemy is casting or would cast at next sec. And there are lots of good traits for dealing damage in domination and dueling.

    If a power mesmer choices the Choas, that means he can't one shot anyone.
    In my experience, I need 2~3 interrupts when I 1v1.
    When I did interrupt them, I must have damage skills or I just stand there, auto-attack and then waste the chance.
    (Please remeber, power mesmers have to wait about 10 sec for a burst, if I did not interrupt them or interrupt them at wrong time, all I can do is gs1 them. But if I hold my burst and wait for interrupt, most of time all I can do is auto-attack, too. that is why I said most of mesmers would not choice CI+MOD before. It is so useless in some situations.)

    The reason I played CI+MOD before is for teamfights, most of time, even if I stun good players (plat1~legendary), they still have skills for breaking stun.
    But if I focused on their casting time and did interrupt, they couldn't just run away with stunbreak skills, because they got immobilized.

    But as I said, I must choice Chaos trait, that means I can choice only dueling or domination for the last trait I can take.
    You must know mesmers have to focus on interrupting and then CI would be good. If mesmers just MOD randomly, CI would become a useless thing.

    I just want you know if CI+MOD is OP, it can't stay in gw2 since 2013. People hate it now because CI+MOD+pistol trait+condi mirage can create so many kinds of condi and people can't clean all of them even they bring condi clean skills. But for power mesmers, CI+MOD is ok.

    Whatsoever, anet already think CI is unbalance...., I just hope they would only remove the immobilize.
    (But I guess they would remove CI forever.... sigh... So tired.)

    You are right, that the oneshot Mes using Mantra of Distraction wth a Stun in old CS trait in Domination was also broken. I even said that myself. The reason is just the same: instant range lock down. In these builds Mantra wasn't used for intrrupts at all, it was used for a lock down to hit other dmg skills. But that something else was also broken is no argument against that Ci was problematic too. Both traits now got addressed and that is one of the few changes i think Anet did good with. Yes my first reaction to the complete disable was the same: What a bad way of balancing. I know it is a temporary hotfix but would it be so much more work to only disable the immob and not the whole trait? Maybe there are problems with only disable the immob, i dunno.

    They can disable traits without need to update the game(patch).
    Without a stun/immobilize power burst is nearly impossible to land, unless they are willingly eat it without evading/blocking/whatnot. Missing/not killing with a burst for glassy mesmer means he most likely get killed himself.
    Aned seen @Lincolnbeard.1735 and added conversion from daze to stun as he suggested, at least somewhere to help with a burst landing.
    I still have well written moment in my memory from Helseth's stream during core days without this CS trait, it was on temple of the silent storm, he was raging the entire game because couldnt land his burst on anyone :P

    Uh, its really not. The standard combo is you go into stealth from sword 4 (so they cant see the burst coming), then oneshot them out of stealth. Or you blink into a oneshot while they dont see you. Either way, they die before they have the time to react. If anything, stuns or immobilizes just make it go from "incredibly easy to land" to "impossible to not land". Which you really dont want to do with Mesmer burst, which is part of the reason power shatter mesmer doesnt have access to stuns and immobs anymore.

    Stealthing with sword 4, incredible. And high-level mesmers often use focus over torch.

    Right, torch 4. I uh, guess I have played too much Rev, so the words "Sword 4" has gotten engrained in my brain. Still, the point stands. And Focus has been used, but then you have CC to do the burst with even less counterplay. So, its not like Mesmer is lacking a way to burst people.

    You need to cc with focus, swap to gs, use gs2 (0.75 secs base cast), shatter, possibly gs3, for that combo. Which my grandma could avoid.

    While theyre CCd and in fact, cannot avoid it. Alternatively, you do the blink or stealth combo, precast GS2 while they dont see it, then hit them for the full damage in about .2 seconds. Faster than human reaction time. Which is why I prefer Torch over Focus, with Focus if they have a stunbreak they can avoid the burst if they are fast. With stealth they have to predict correctly. Something they will have quite a lot of trouble doing.

    1) There is something called stunbreak 2) Multiple classes have ways to avoid things while ccd (instant blinds, invulns, etc) 3) Test it yourself, the focus pull cc is very short, the combo must be done with quickness and is tight even then.

    // Yanim

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @TAIKA.1903 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Sry but no, CI never was a balanced trait even without Mantra it was at least problematic. With Mantra it is totally insane. An instant lock down should not exist, no matter how much cd it has. Mantra was op with stun and it was even more op with immob in addition to daze or stun. And don't say Mesmer had no dmg when taking chaos. The old lock down Mesmer just as current Mesmers had/ have still more than enough dmg even when taking one defensive traitline. Current core Mantra Mesmer still can oneshot most targets with inspiration just as a stealthspam chaosline pu core Mes can. Even when a chaos Mesmer can't oneshot totally tanky targets, the burst was/is still high enough to pressure the target very hard and make the Mesmer highly favored in a fight when hit a lucky interrupt on autoattack and immob so target need to use stunbreak+condiremove (at least every class doesn't have a teleport stunbreak out of dmg range) to avoid the burst. Since the gs burst is possible to do in under 1 secs it is immpossible to remove the daze/stun and the immob right on time.

    I agree lots of u said before, but I disagree this one. CI+MOD was a bad build because there was a stun trait in domination before. And I could said, only me play this CI+MOD+ power Chrono about 6 seasons before in plat. Because if mesmers wanna one shot people, they would choice domination and dueling because they do not have to care if they could interrupt target or not. They do not have to check or guess if enemy is casting or would cast at next sec. And there are lots of good traits for dealing damage in domination and dueling.

    If a power mesmer choices the Choas, that means he can't one shot anyone.
    In my experience, I need 2~3 interrupts when I 1v1.
    When I did interrupt them, I must have damage skills or I just stand there, auto-attack and then waste the chance.
    (Please remeber, power mesmers have to wait about 10 sec for a burst, if I did not interrupt them or interrupt them at wrong time, all I can do is gs1 them. But if I hold my burst and wait for interrupt, most of time all I can do is auto-attack, too. that is why I said most of mesmers would not choice CI+MOD before. It is so useless in some situations.)

    The reason I played CI+MOD before is for teamfights, most of time, even if I stun good players (plat1~legendary), they still have skills for breaking stun.
    But if I focused on their casting time and did interrupt, they couldn't just run away with stunbreak skills, because they got immobilized.

    But as I said, I must choice Chaos trait, that means I can choice only dueling or domination for the last trait I can take.
    You must know mesmers have to focus on interrupting and then CI would be good. If mesmers just MOD randomly, CI would become a useless thing.

    I just want you know if CI+MOD is OP, it can't stay in gw2 since 2013. People hate it now because CI+MOD+pistol trait+condi mirage can create so many kinds of condi and people can't clean all of them even they bring condi clean skills. But for power mesmers, CI+MOD is ok.

    Whatsoever, anet already think CI is unbalance...., I just hope they would only remove the immobilize.
    (But I guess they would remove CI forever.... sigh... So tired.)

    You are right, that the oneshot Mes using Mantra of Distraction wth a Stun in old CS trait in Domination was also broken. I even said that myself. The reason is just the same: instant range lock down. In these builds Mantra wasn't used for intrrupts at all, it was used for a lock down to hit other dmg skills. But that something else was also broken is no argument against that Ci was problematic too. Both traits now got addressed and that is one of the few changes i think Anet did good with. Yes my first reaction to the complete disable was the same: What a bad way of balancing. I know it is a temporary hotfix but would it be so much more work to only disable the immob and not the whole trait? Maybe there are problems with only disable the immob, i dunno.

    They can disable traits without need to update the game(patch).
    Without a stun/immobilize power burst is nearly impossible to land, unless they are willingly eat it without evading/blocking/whatnot. Missing/not killing with a burst for glassy mesmer means he most likely get killed himself.
    Aned seen @Lincolnbeard.1735 and added conversion from daze to stun as he suggested, at least somewhere to help with a burst landing.
    I still have well written moment in my memory from Helseth's stream during core days without this CS trait, it was on temple of the silent storm, he was raging the entire game because couldnt land his burst on anyone :P

    Uh, its really not. The standard combo is you go into stealth from sword 4 (so they cant see the burst coming), then oneshot them out of stealth. Or you blink into a oneshot while they dont see you. Either way, they die before they have the time to react. If anything, stuns or immobilizes just make it go from "incredibly easy to land" to "impossible to not land". Which you really dont want to do with Mesmer burst, which is part of the reason power shatter mesmer doesnt have access to stuns and immobs anymore.

    Stealthing with sword 4, incredible. And high-level mesmers often use focus over torch.

    Right, torch 4. I uh, guess I have played too much Rev, so the words "Sword 4" has gotten engrained in my brain. Still, the point stands. And Focus has been used, but then you have CC to do the burst with even less counterplay. So, its not like Mesmer is lacking a way to burst people.

    You need to cc with focus, swap to gs, use gs2 (0.75 secs base cast), shatter, possibly gs3, for that combo. Which my grandma could avoid.

    While theyre CCd and in fact, cannot avoid it. Alternatively, you do the blink or stealth combo, precast GS2 while they dont see it, then hit them for the full damage in about .2 seconds. Faster than human reaction time. Which is why I prefer Torch over Focus, with Focus if they have a stunbreak they can avoid the burst if they are fast. With stealth they have to predict correctly. Something they will have quite a lot of trouble doing.

    1) There is something called stunbreak 2) Multiple classes have ways to avoid things while ccd (instant blinds, invulns, etc) 3) Test it yourself, the focus pull cc is very short, the combo must be done with quickness and is tight even then.

    Yeah I know, I mentioned stunbreak just moments later. Its why I think Focus is inferior to Torch. The same applies to the rest. Though, Im pretty sure only one class has a way to avoid things while CCd that is part of the meta build (which would be weavers Obsidian Flesh). But yes, the rest basically comes down to "You can actually still react to the CC burst combo, which is why the stealth burst combo is better".

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2019

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Though, Im pretty sure only one class has a way to avoid things while CCd that is part of the meta build (which would be weavers Obsidian Flesh).

    Shiro evade
    Roll for Initiative
    Mirage Cloak
    Obsidian Flesh
    Guardian F3
    Mesmer F4
    and so on

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Though, Im pretty sure only one class has a way to avoid things while CCd that is part of the meta build (which would be weavers Obsidian Flesh).

    Shiro evade
    Roll for Initiative
    Mirage Cloak
    Obsidian Flesh
    Guardian F3
    and so on

    I shouldve specified "that isnt a stunbreak", but fair point on Mirage Cloak. Though Guardian F3 only works on core guardian which Im pretty sure is not being run seriously. Firebrand obviously doesnt have a way, and DH F3 is directional, and you want to be behind them anyway.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I hope they keep making changes to mesmer and thief so they will be so un-alike people will stop comparing them and making complaints or justifications based on one or the other.

    Mesmer in theory =/= thief.

    Realistically, the devs need to stop trying to homogenize every class and giving everyone everything.

    I won't be shocked if war gets teleport in the next xpac or during LS5 and necromancers get stealth.

    Wouldn't it be nice if there was some preservation of class identity?

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    I hope they keep making changes to mesmer and thief so they will be so un-alike people will stop comparing them and making complaints or justifications based on one or the other.

    Mesmer in theory =/= thief.

    Realistically, the devs need to stop trying to homogenize every class and giving everyone everything.

    I won't be shocked if war gets teleport in the next xpac or during LS5 and necromancers get stealth.

    Wouldn't it be nice if there was some preservation of class identity?

    The thing is, they were always pretty close in gameplay identity, even if they arent in visual identity. Both were burst classes with a side focus on enemy denial and global map control (even if in Mesmers case that just meant "Portal"). If anything, they are more divergent now since Mesmer actually became a pretty good duelist and sustained fighter (As well as having had the occasional bunker build though those are gone now) while thief trippled down on map mobility at the cost of, well, everything.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    I hope they keep making changes to mesmer and thief so they will be so un-alike people will stop comparing them and making complaints or justifications based on one or the other.

    Mesmer in theory =/= thief.

    Realistically, the devs need to stop trying to homogenize every class and giving everyone everything.

    I won't be shocked if war gets teleport in the next xpac or during LS5 and necromancers get stealth.

    Wouldn't it be nice if there was some preservation of class identity?

    The thing is, they were always pretty close in gameplay identity, even if they arent in visual identity. Both were burst classes with a side focus on enemy denial and global map control (even if in Mesmers case that just meant "Portal"). If anything, they are more divergent now since Mesmer actually became a pretty good duelist and sustained fighter (As well as having had the occasional bunker build though those are gone now) while thief trippled down on map mobility at the cost of, well, everything.

    Perhaps that's the real problem.

    People already hate thief and having a magical one better at dueling is definitely going to keep it on the nerf me dart board.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2019

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    I hope they keep making changes to mesmer and thief so they will be so un-alike

    Aned gives theif a portal

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    I hope they keep making changes to mesmer and thief so they will be so un-alike

    Aned gives theif a portal

    That is true. They pretty much took the mesmer portal away in the competitive scene.

    But, I mean scourge got sand swell, a short ranged portal.

    Homogenizing classes.

    Serious question for you though, when did you stop being a holo main?

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

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