Claim buff comparison and what does it mean for PvP gamemode.

In this thread claim buff will be compared to other combat stats within the gamemode and it will be left up to YOU to decide if it messes up with the competitiveness of the gamemode.

Purpose of the thread is to raise awareness of how stats work and importance of location you choose to battle at is.

Now to give you something to start with, duel between great players is often decided by something as small as 200 stats. Good player with exotic gear will never beat good player with ascended.

Lets start:Difference of ascended and exotic sets (4-statted Heavy): 600 stats + 5% weapon strength (~50 power on condi/heal builds, 125 power at 2500 power). ~700 statsFood (lvl-80): 170 statsBetter food (200 stats per kill): 270 stats10% Dmg red food + 70 stats(3000 armor): 403 stats (of which 333 toughness because 10% damage reduction is 11.11% armor increase)Superior sharpening stone in power builds (Berserker): ~130 powerBetter food + superior stone together: 400 statsPvP amulet (3 statted): 3000 statsBorderlands bloodlust (minor): 180 stats

So fighting near enemy camp/tower (400 stats) they will be gaining one of these (anyone, even GvGs):57% of their gear from exotic to ascended2.353 normal foods1.4848 better foods0.993 damage reduction foods3.08 superior sharpening stone1 set of food + stone0.1333 PvP amuletsor2.222 borderlands bloodlusts

Fighting inside enemy keep or fighting at enemy camp/tower instead of yours (800 stats):104% of their gear from exotic to ascended4.706 normal foods2.9696 better foods1.996 damage reduction foods6.16 sharpening stones2 sets of food + stone0.2666 PvP amuletsor4.4444 borderlands bloodlusts

Fighting inside enemy keep instead of your own keep (1600 stats):208% of their gear to ascended9.412 normal foods5.9392 better foods3.992 damage reduction foods12.32 sharpening stones4 sets of food + stone0.5333 PvP amuletsor8.8888 borderlands bloodlusts

What do these numbers mean?

1. Fighting inside enemy keep is basically fighting exotic vs ascended (or if you wanna nitpick ascended vs superascended).
2. Fighting near enemy camp/tower means enemy has 1 extra set of food + stones/oils. Any high level player knows foods make a difference.
3. Claim buff covers almost all the map so there's no neutral zone, someone in the battle almost always have extra set of food + stone unless the objective is owned by the 3rd server which is unlikely.
4. When attacking compared to defending, enemy has at least 4.44 borderland bloodlusts or 0.25 PvP amulets
5. Defending a keep means you will gain 4 sets of food + stones compared to attacking one.6. Equal groups/players on open field with no buffs will lose fights at enemy objective and win at friendly objectively. This is disregarding other defender advantages than stats like siege, respawn, positioning, stealth bombing, gliding.
6. There can be no servers/commanders/guilds that are equal at fighting because location decides the outcome of the battle even outside objectives where siege can't reach.
7. GvGing near south camp/bay can become unfair any moment anyone decides to claim the objective unless you claim it with a guild that has no buffs.
8. Playing defensive is smarter.
9. Trying to cap objectives to have fights where you only lose to better players is impossible even if you take out all the siege.

@Threather.9354 said:Good player with exotic gear will never beat good player with ascended....

1. Fighting inside enemy keep is basically fighting exotic vs ascended (or if you wanna nitpick ascended vs superascended).Which automatically must mean that good players have never won a fight against good enemies inside enemy keeps.

Good to know.

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Threather.9354 said:Good player with exotic gear will never beat good player with ascended....

1. Fighting inside enemy keep is basically fighting exotic vs ascended (or if you wanna nitpick ascended vs superascended).Which automatically must mean that good players have never won a fight against good enemies inside enemy keeps.

I didn't use plural tho, you did. There is a difference. Also to clarify context as it didn't seem clear; good player beating a good player means both having all skills available and builds ment for roaming/dueling. Not lets say you on a ranger, jumping on some God of PvP when he is half health from pushing through a choke of acs in a well necro build.

Well we all agree that damage is too high, TTK is too low, and deal with either insta-deleting abilities or unkillable perma kiting builds. I think in such an environment, an argument can be made to remove all area/map wide boons given to players.

Remember that event where they increased the stat gain from controlling Ruins? That was a fun week, right?

What is the point of these boons? To give us incentive to capture and hold objectives? Outside of Ruins, is that really the incentive?

Is this a PSA or some request to have something changed? Dropping a PvP title reference in WvW subforum already starts the situation off as questionable.

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:Well we all agree that damage is too high, TTK is too low, and deal with either insta-deleting abilities or unkillable perma kiting builds. I think in such an environment, an argument can be made to remove all area/map wide boons given to players.

Remember that event where they increased the stat gain from controlling Ruins? That was a fun week, right?

What is the point of these boons? To give us incentive to capture and hold objectives? Outside of Ruins, is that really the incentive?

I can't speak of others but as a roamer/havoc, yes did enjoy the week where the bloodlust buff was increased. It did up the fights in those areas and made for good contention points. As far as things like Presence of the Keep, things like this do create conflict on their own. Knowing this boon is in place ups the priority of that target since it will grant the otherside an edge, and also means you need to be mindful where the point of conflict occurs. The whole point of objectives is to create areas where players will class and this kind of thing is just one more reason why we aren't just meeting up in an empty field.

@Threather.9354 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Threather.9354 said:Good player with exotic gear will never beat good player with ascended....

1. Fighting inside enemy keep is basically fighting exotic vs ascended (or if you wanna nitpick ascended vs superascended).Which automatically must mean that good players have never won a fight against good enemies inside enemy keeps.

The context was clear enough for the two statements to be completely contradictory. The only flaw was that I also said inside keeps. I really shouldnt have, the buff is around the keeps (well, and towers) where many 1v1 and small skirmishes occur.

On a personal level, in a 1v1 I honestly never cared. I either win or I loose. Ascended/exotic gear doesnt matter much - it's all about what builds/classes are brought and how good players are at using them effectivly. Most players will also have ascended trinkets (does anyone use exotic anymore?!?) and on top of that many will at least have the weapons, so the effective stat difference on the field is far less. Someone in exotic armor and the rest ascended will easily be able to match people in full ascended. Likewise I've never cared if the fight has been in an enemy keep or not. The buffed stats might help the enemy, but fights arent often that even. If they won they usually would have won without the buffs and the rest of the time... well I win.

In a zerg fight however it's a whole different matter since the exponential gain of stats across players vastly increase the buffed zergs power (especially if it's an undefeat fully stacked zerg vs a defeated one).

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Threather.9354 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Threather.9354 said:Good player with exotic gear will never beat good player with ascended....

1. Fighting inside enemy keep is basically fighting exotic vs ascended (or if you wanna nitpick ascended vs superascended).Which automatically must mean that good players have never won a fight against good enemies inside enemy keeps.

No actually the increased stats matter slightly less in zerg fights and it isn't exponential, if you increase the number of players to 10, the stat difference is also increased times 10, this isn't exponential, it's linear. In zerg fights you have more tools to overcome players like AoE stealth bombs, boons, better party comp, adaptation to what multiple players do and communication, it isn't just about stats and which order you press skills in.

Also if you read the opening post carefully, it isn't just fighting inside keeps, its also fighting within camp claim buffs. Difference of fighting at your camp compared to enemy camp is same as fighting inside enemy keep instead of at neutral ground. One man will have exotic gear against another some at some camp/tower and ascended against the same guy at another camp/tower. And this isn't just inside the camp/tower, it extends throught the map. This is why competitive roaming (and blob/guild fights) is dead, there can be no power rankings based on skill which is kinda odd for a competitive gamemode.

So in summary, as long as claim buff exists, there can be no competitive scene within the gamemode, only casual.

@Threather.9354 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Threather.9354 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Threather.9354 said:Good player with exotic gear will never beat good player with ascended....

1. Fighting inside enemy keep is basically fighting exotic vs ascended (or if you wanna nitpick ascended vs superascended).Which automatically must mean that good players have never won a fight against good enemies inside enemy keeps.

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Threather.9354 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Threather.9354 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Threather.9354 said:Good player with exotic gear will never beat good player with ascended....

1. Fighting inside enemy keep is basically fighting exotic vs ascended (or if you wanna nitpick ascended vs superascended).Which automatically must mean that good players have never won a fight against good enemies inside enemy keeps.

Okay I give you that it is true in some, even most high-level, fights. Some fights everyone within the melee ball survive until everyone off it dies leaving so small melee ball alive that it didn't matter.