Some Ideas for Mirage balancing — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Some Ideas for Mirage balancing

UBcktieDL.5318UBcktieDL.5318 Member ✭✭

Problem with condi Mirage is, that it can do quite a lot of damage with it's clones while being extremely slippery. I think some degree of slipperyness and confusion should stay, it's an illusionist afterall, but we should probably get a few more ways to punish the mirage for mistakes.

  1. Mirage Cloak should no longer be useable while stunned.
  2. Trait "Elusive Mind" reworked: Exhaustion removed, stunbreak removed, now allows Mirage to dodge while CC'd. Not sure about keeping the condi remove part, it would fit well, but maybe it would already be too much. Goal is to force Mirage into a decision between more pressure (IH) and defense (EM).
  3. Staff Ambush nerfed for clones. Condi mirage has too much damage from this ambush skill with very little counterplay.
  4. Some rework of CI that removes the interrupt in favor of... something else. No concrete idea about this but it shoudn't turn interrupts into hard CC's, the domination trait that did the same got reworked for a reason.

With these changes, mirage shoudn't be in an OP state anymore. However, mesmer in general received so many nerfs due to mirage, that gutting mirage will likely result in Mesmer being too weak overall. Some suggestions to introduce a healthy version of Mirage and Mesmer in general
1. Revert the nerfs on Cry of Frustration, Maim the Disillusioned and Ineptitude. Condi Mesmer and Mirage applying condis with their shatters is much healthier for the game than clone ambush spam. It's telegraphed and rewards the Mesmer for playing well and actually landing his skills.
2. Rework Chrono. The last changes were straight up terrible for Chrono and deleted so many builds.
3. Allow some sort of power build that doesn't involve a oneshot combo using GS. Maybe increase damage of Mind Wrack when used with 2 or 3 illusions, so Power Mes can still be bursty without going back into the degenerate pattern of stealth->GS2->MoD->Gs3->F1. Power Mes doesn't live up to it's illusionist fantasy.

Comments

  • Khalisto.5780Khalisto.5780 Member ✭✭✭

    just make infinite horizons clones proc when mirage is below 50%, not full time

  • @UBcktieDL.5318 said:
    Problem with condi Mirage is, that it can do quite a lot of damage with it's clones while being extremely slippery. I think some degree of slipperyness and confusion should stay, it's an illusionist afterall, but we should probably get a few more ways to punish the mirage for mistakes.

    1. Mirage Cloak should no longer be useable while stunned.
    2. Trait "Elusive Mind" reworked: Exhaustion removed, stunbreak removed, now allows Mirage to dodge while CC'd. Not sure about keeping the condi remove part, it would fit well, but maybe it would already be too much. Goal is to force Mirage into a decision between more pressure (IH) and defense (EM).

    I've been saying this for a while, but people dismissed it and played the most toxic builds they could until the bubble burst and Anet started making strange nerfs.
    Now everything on that class is getting scrutinized.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • @Tayga.3192 said:
    In priority order,

    • Revert portal nerf: This is what needs to be done as a top priority.
    • Buff player damage (ambushes and shatters) and nerf clone damage (IH).
    • Enable CI back, remove immobilize.
    • Weapons. Fix axe to enable hybrid play (sage or wizard) and rework GS to be an actual weapon instead of being a oneshot niche. Somebody asked to lower amount of scepter ambush hits, that's a nice idea too. While you are at it, decrease sword2 hits too while preserving damage.
    • After all those you can start fine tuning/adjusting/reworking traits. Starting with dueling's master tier.
    • Then comes the numbers game: buff and nerf accordingly. Maybe revert vigor on crit nerf.
    • Portal nerf: I'm sceptical about this one, as portal can be used to negate misplays by the mesmer player. Probably fine on base mes and whatever is left of chrono, but could be problematic on mirage.
    • Shifting damage to players skill from clones: Agreed.
    • Ci will get reworked anyway. J hope immob gets removed since it basically turns MoD into a stun, since daze prevents actions other than movement and dodge rolling and immob also prevets these, without an internal cooldown like old confounding suggestions had.
    • I hope GS gets some work. The weapon is really weak, aside from it's GS2+F1 burst niche. Playing with greatsword feels awful, and it's probably the worst long-range weapon in the game, even worse than ele scepter.
    • About traits: Made some suggestions about mirage traits above. I hate the design decision of ANET to gut base mesmer and chrono to balance mirage. I actually think most of the traits can be reverted once mirage is taken care off.
  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UBcktieDL.5318 said:

    • Portal nerf: I'm sceptical about this one, as portal can be used to negate misplays by the mesmer player. Probably fine on base mes and whatever is left of chrono, but could be problematic on mirage.

    I dont know what "negate missplays by mesmer" you mean... Portal is fine, they could at least add extra 15 seconds to it.

    • Shifting damage to players skill from clones: Agreed.
    • Ci will get reworked anyway. J hope immob gets removed since it basically turns MoD into a stun, since daze prevents actions other than movement and dodge rolling and immob also prevets these, without an internal cooldown like old confounding suggestions had.
    • I hope GS gets some work. The weapon is really weak, aside from it's GS2+F1 burst niche. Playing with greatsword feels awful, and it's probably the worst long-range weapon in the game, even worse than ele scepter.
    • About traits: Made some suggestions about mirage traits above. I hate the design decision of ANET to gut base mesmer and chrono to balance mirage. I actually think most of the traits can be reverted once mirage is taken care off.

    I agree with the rest and OP post pretty much. And revert stupid vigor nerfs kitten when disable evade in STUN.
    I have told that GS need a rework so it would stop being a oneshot niche and we would have a different way to play it, its super weak,especially look at gs5, I wanna cry when I see it :anguished:
    Good suggestions, I approve. :+1:

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    In priority order,

    • Revert portal nerf: This is what needs to be done as a top priority.
    • Buff player damage (ambushes and shatters) and nerf clone damage (IH).
    • Enable CI back, remove immobilize.
    • Weapons. Fix axe to enable hybrid play (sage or wizard) and rework GS to be an actual weapon instead of being a oneshot niche. Somebody asked to lower amount of scepter ambush hits, that's a nice idea too. While you are at it, decrease sword2 hits too while preserving damage.
    • After all those you can start fine tuning/adjusting/reworking traits. Starting with dueling's master tier.
    • Then comes the numbers game: buff and nerf accordingly. Maybe revert vigor on crit nerf.

    Seconded. These are all very reasonable things to do. Although I kinda like the GS as it is. If I want "an actual weapon", I'll play another class.

    At first, when it was first done, I wasn't against the Portal nerf. Thinking about it afterwards though the nerf destroyed some of mesmers class identity, dumbed down PvP and made balance more cancerous. I think this has been the single dumbest balance decision ANet has made in years.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2019

    @Yannir.4132 said:
    I think this has been the single dumbest balance decision ANet has made in years.

    That was when they deleted IP from chrono. They made mesmer to be played with base IP in mind, DIDNT REWORK TRAITS and didnt adjust new CS for the new DOUBLE trade-off and left it dead in pvp/wvw. :rage:

    Although I kinda like the GS as it is. If I want "an actual weapon", I'll play another class.

    This confuses me, mesmer is not allowed to have "an actual weapon" ?

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:
    This confuses me, mesmer is not allowed to have "an actual weapon" ?

    What I mean is that I like Mesmer GS as it is, a one-shot niche build weapon. The 5 skill could certainly be a bit stronger though. It would be nice to be able to set up bursts with it instead of having to rely on a utility.
    Don't think too much about it, there is no insinuation here. This wasn't intended as a general comment, it was as a response to the person I was quoting.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2019

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:
    This confuses me, mesmer is not allowed to have "an actual weapon" ?

    What I mean is that I like Mesmer GS as it is, a one-shot niche build weapon. The 5 skill could certainly be a bit stronger though. It would be nice to be able to set up bursts with it instead of having to rely on a utility.
    Don't think too much about it, there is no insinuation here. This wasn't intended as a general comment, it was as a response to the person I was quoting.

    Melee knockback with close to no damage (that love to fail on different levels of elevation) on 30s cd.... I would rather get any 5th skill from any class than this.
    I'm more than sure they could shave 10s cd easly as they did with ranger LB, that would be close to somewhat truth but complete rework is more welcomed for me.
    This full zerk gimmick build has no place in high tiers and only a reason to complaint about, hence why I want a rework.

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @praqtos.9035 said:
    This full zerk gimmick build has no place in high tiers and only a reason to complaint about, hence why I want a rework.

    Zeromis won multiple mAT's on a Marauder GS Shatter build.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:
    This full zerk gimmick build has no place in high tiers and only a reason to complaint about, hence why I want a rework.

    Zeromis won multiple mAT's on a Marauder GS Shatter build.

    He could play naked and still win these maT's because his team is far superior than any other, poor example. So far as I know he isnt playing "oneshot" build but more of ambush spam build with SoI and desert distortion.

  • Vithzerai.3291Vithzerai.3291 Member ✭✭
    edited August 9, 2019

    Honestly, couldn't they just put an internal cooldown on infinite horizon? Would allow Mesmer's a higher skill ceiling to time their bursts, opposing players would know about it instead of it happening every time a Mirage dodges or gets cloak from w/e. Maybe I'm being ignorant, but I just thought that might actually be a solid fix for people complaining about a lack of counterplay, myself included. Also doesn't hurt non-mirage mesmers either, 'cause I bet they're fed up of their core traits getting nerfed.

    Also nerfs the questionable surviability of Mirage clones too, I think to an acceptable degree. Mebbe I'm wrong. vOv

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vithzerai.3291 said:
    Honestly, couldn't they just put an internal cooldown infinite horizon? Would allow Mesmer's a higher skill ceiling to time their bursts, opposing players would know about it instead of it happening every time a Mirage dodges or gets cloak from w/e. Maybe I'm being ignorant, but I just thought that might actually be a solid fix for people complaining about a lack of counterplay, myself included. Also doesn't hurt non-mirage mesmers either, 'cause I bet their fed up of their core traits getting nerfed.

    Also nerfs the questionable surviability of Mirage clones too, I think to an acceptable degree. Mebbe I'm wrong. vOv

    Your suggestion completely make no sense, not even a little.
    Are you complaining about 2400 hp on the clones ? Are you Jawgeous2?

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    • Buff player damage (ambushes and shatters) and nerf clone damage (IH).

    This is a good suggestion, move the damage to mesmer and remove it from clones.
    In this case you would need to evade only mesmer ambush, not clones.

  • Vithzerai.3291Vithzerai.3291 Member ✭✭
    edited August 9, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Vithzerai.3291 said:
    Honestly, couldn't they just put an internal cooldown infinite horizon? Would allow Mesmer's a higher skill ceiling to time their bursts, opposing players would know about it instead of it happening every time a Mirage dodges or gets cloak from w/e. Maybe I'm being ignorant, but I just thought that might actually be a solid fix for people complaining about a lack of counterplay, myself included. Also doesn't hurt non-mirage mesmers either, 'cause I bet their fed up of their core traits getting nerfed.

    Also nerfs the questionable surviability of Mirage clones too, I think to an acceptable degree. Mebbe I'm wrong. vOv

    Your suggestion completely make no sense, not even a little.
    Are you complaining about 2400 hp on the clones ? Are you Jawgeous2?

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    • Buff player damage (ambushes and shatters) and nerf clone damage (IH).

    This is a good suggestion, move the damage to mesmer and remove it from clones.
    In this case you would need to evade only mesmer ambush, not clones.

    Why doesn't the suggestion make sense? And also, their health pool isn't what's relevant in making them survivable, is it.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vithzerai.3291 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Vithzerai.3291 said:
    Honestly, couldn't they just put an internal cooldown infinite horizon? Would allow Mesmer's a higher skill ceiling to time their bursts, opposing players would know about it instead of it happening every time a Mirage dodges or gets cloak from w/e. Maybe I'm being ignorant, but I just thought that might actually be a solid fix for people complaining about a lack of counterplay, myself included. Also doesn't hurt non-mirage mesmers either, 'cause I bet their fed up of their core traits getting nerfed.

    Also nerfs the questionable surviability of Mirage clones too, I think to an acceptable degree. Mebbe I'm wrong. vOv

    Your suggestion completely make no sense, not even a little.
    Are you complaining about 2400 hp on the clones ? Are you Jawgeous2?

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    • Buff player damage (ambushes and shatters) and nerf clone damage (IH).

    This is a good suggestion, move the damage to mesmer and remove it from clones.
    In this case you would need to evade only mesmer ambush, not clones.

    Why doesn't the suggestion make sense? And also, their health pool isn't what's relevant in making them survivable, is it.

    adding ICD to IH depending on cooldown would make it clunky but meaningless, or would kill mirage compleatly, as for clones, they get 1shot by anything, They are not survivable at all.

  • Vithzerai.3291Vithzerai.3291 Member ✭✭
    edited August 9, 2019

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Vithzerai.3291 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Vithzerai.3291 said:
    Honestly, couldn't they just put an internal cooldown infinite horizon? Would allow Mesmer's a higher skill ceiling to time their bursts, opposing players would know about it instead of it happening every time a Mirage dodges or gets cloak from w/e. Maybe I'm being ignorant, but I just thought that might actually be a solid fix for people complaining about a lack of counterplay, myself included. Also doesn't hurt non-mirage mesmers either, 'cause I bet their fed up of their core traits getting nerfed.

    Also nerfs the questionable surviability of Mirage clones too, I think to an acceptable degree. Mebbe I'm wrong. vOv

    Your suggestion completely make no sense, not even a little.
    Are you complaining about 2400 hp on the clones ? Are you Jawgeous2?

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    • Buff player damage (ambushes and shatters) and nerf clone damage (IH).

    This is a good suggestion, move the damage to mesmer and remove it from clones.
    In this case you would need to evade only mesmer ambush, not clones.

    Why doesn't the suggestion make sense? And also, their health pool isn't what's relevant in making them survivable, is it.

    adding ICD to IH depending on cooldown would make it clunky but meaningless, or would kill mirage compleatly, as for clones, they get 1shot by anything, They are not survivable at all.

    Clunky? Yeah, could be. Could be. Kill Mirage? Somehow, I very much doubt it, but I've been wrong before. They get one shot by anything, y'say? So you'd be up for doubling their health pool, or maybe even more, but losing the evade frames? Why do you think it would kill Mirage?

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2019

    @Vithzerai.3291 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Vithzerai.3291 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Vithzerai.3291 said:
    Honestly, couldn't they just put an internal cooldown infinite horizon? Would allow Mesmer's a higher skill ceiling to time their bursts, opposing players would know about it instead of it happening every time a Mirage dodges or gets cloak from w/e. Maybe I'm being ignorant, but I just thought that might actually be a solid fix for people complaining about a lack of counterplay, myself included. Also doesn't hurt non-mirage mesmers either, 'cause I bet their fed up of their core traits getting nerfed.

    Also nerfs the questionable surviability of Mirage clones too, I think to an acceptable degree. Mebbe I'm wrong. vOv

    Your suggestion completely make no sense, not even a little.
    Are you complaining about 2400 hp on the clones ? Are you Jawgeous2?

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    • Buff player damage (ambushes and shatters) and nerf clone damage (IH).

    This is a good suggestion, move the damage to mesmer and remove it from clones.
    In this case you would need to evade only mesmer ambush, not clones.

    Why doesn't the suggestion make sense? And also, their health pool isn't what's relevant in making them survivable, is it.

    adding ICD to IH depending on cooldown would make it clunky but meaningless, or would kill mirage compleatly, as for clones, they get 1shot by anything, They are not survivable at all.

    Clunky? Yeah, could be. Could be. Kill Mirage? Somehow, I very much doubt it, but I've been wrong before. They get one shot by anything, y'say? So you'd be up for doubling their health pool, or maybe even more, but losing the evade frames? Why do you think it would kill Mirage?

    becouse it will proc on every timed evade for 100% uptime still, or it wont. and the damage will be nerfed by 50% or more.
    giving clones more hp wont make them much tankier, doesnt matter if they are overkilled by 4k dmg or by 2k dmg.
    and to be clear here, mirage is already struggling against other specs, nerfing its one of the bigger hitters by 50% or more would make it trash. expecially due to how conditions and condi cleanse works, would go from dealing good sustained dmg while forcing cleanses to dealing 0 dmg becouse cleanses just remove everything.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    giving clones more hp wont make them much tankier, doesnt matter if they are overkilled by 4k dmg or by 2k dmg.

    I have a suggestion for this as well:

    • Clones should always have vitality relative to the player.
    • For 2400ish HP clones, we should take 15% (for base mesmer HP).
    • Meaning, your vitality makes your clones tankier.
  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    giving clones more hp wont make them much tankier, doesnt matter if they are overkilled by 4k dmg or by 2k dmg.

    I have a suggestion for this as well:

    • Clones should always have vitality relative to the player.
    • For 2400ish HP clones, we should take 15% (for base mesmer HP).
    • Meaning, your vitality makes your clones tankier.

    good suggestion, that is why it will not be implemented.

  • This isn't a balancing mirage thread, this is a how to nerf mirage even further.
    1 - sure, give back 1sec MC, superspeed and all vigor back.
    2 - meh, better to have 2 condi cleanse.
    3 - staff ambush is one of the few good ambushes on game, plus it has a gigantic cast time and slow movement, pretty balanced if you ask me.
    4 - immob was fine, plenty of counterpart (stab, fake casting, rupt MoD, cleanse).

    As for someone's idea of getting ICD on IH, sure let's nerf the only good trait in an entire traitline and the only form of sustain damage of mirage.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 10, 2019

    @Vithzerai.3291 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Vithzerai.3291 said:
    Honestly, couldn't they just put an internal cooldown infinite horizon? Would allow Mesmer's a higher skill ceiling to time their bursts, opposing players would know about it instead of it happening every time a Mirage dodges or gets cloak from w/e. Maybe I'm being ignorant, but I just thought that might actually be a solid fix for people complaining about a lack of counterplay, myself included. Also doesn't hurt non-mirage mesmers either, 'cause I bet their fed up of their core traits getting nerfed.

    Also nerfs the questionable surviability of Mirage clones too, I think to an acceptable degree. Mebbe I'm wrong. vOv

    Your suggestion completely make no sense, not even a little.
    Are you complaining about 2400 hp on the clones ? Are you Jawgeous2?

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    • Buff player damage (ambushes and shatters) and nerf clone damage (IH).

    This is a good suggestion, move the damage to mesmer and remove it from clones.
    In this case you would need to evade only mesmer ambush, not clones.

    Why doesn't the suggestion make sense? And also, their health pool isn't what's relevant in making them survivable, is it.

    It makes no sense because an ICD on IH would kill the active gameplay aspect of it completely by hurting the problematic passive condiapplication only a little bit. Imagine a Powermesmer has to dodge an attack on himself and then a little bit later want to actively and tactical dodge pure offensive for a clone daze on sword to interrupt a heal use the mesmer is assuming to come or a dodge a Mesmer want to do to make the clones dodge a Thief Cloak and Dagger (both active and skilled plays) but now IH is on cd, the cd is used by a dodge a Mesmer did to avoid an attack and not for an use of IH effect. Now lets look at the Condimesmer, he knows he only does dmg like every 5 secs with a dodge (assuming 5 secs ICD on IH), if he has to dodge defensive a second time during IH is on ICD he just cover himself with another defensive tool like a scepter block or f4 use. Yes the Condimes needs one braincell more to keep the ICD of IH in mind but in the end he can just dodge as often as before and do the same dmg only the dmg is differently timed from no special timing to every 5 secs. Means Condimes would still overperform with one more braincell used and Powermes can't use IH active and tactical anymore. Bad change. Just nerf the condi clone autoattacks and clone ambush attacks and give Condimes more active ways of condiapplication through shatters and IH will not be a problem anymore.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 10, 2019

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Vithzerai.3291 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Vithzerai.3291 said:
    Honestly, couldn't they just put an internal cooldown infinite horizon? Would allow Mesmer's a higher skill ceiling to time their bursts, opposing players would know about it instead of it happening every time a Mirage dodges or gets cloak from w/e. Maybe I'm being ignorant, but I just thought that might actually be a solid fix for people complaining about a lack of counterplay, myself included. Also doesn't hurt non-mirage mesmers either, 'cause I bet their fed up of their core traits getting nerfed.

    Also nerfs the questionable surviability of Mirage clones too, I think to an acceptable degree. Mebbe I'm wrong. vOv

    Your suggestion completely make no sense, not even a little.
    Are you complaining about 2400 hp on the clones ? Are you Jawgeous2?

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    • Buff player damage (ambushes and shatters) and nerf clone damage (IH).

    This is a good suggestion, move the damage to mesmer and remove it from clones.
    In this case you would need to evade only mesmer ambush, not clones.

    Why doesn't the suggestion make sense? And also, their health pool isn't what's relevant in making them survivable, is it.

    It makes no sense because an ICD on IH would kill the active gameplay aspect of it completely by hurting the problematic passive condiapplication only a little bit. Imagine a Powermesmer has to dodge an attack on himself and then a little bit later want to actively and tactical dodge pure offensive for a clone daze on sword to interrupt a heal use the mesmer is assuming to come or a dodge a Mesmer want to do to make the clones dodge a Thief Cloak and Dagger (both active and skilled plays) but now IH is on cd, the cd is used by a dodge a Mesmer did to avoid an attack and not for an use of IH effect. Now lets look at the Condimesmer, he knows he only does dmg like every 5 secs with a dodge (assuming 5 secs ICD on IH), if he has to dodge defensive a second time during IH is on ICD he just cover himself with another defensive tool like a scepter block or f4 use. Yes the Condimes needs one braincell more to keep the ICD of IH in mind but in the end he can just dodge as often as before and do the same dmg only the dmg is differently timed from no special timing to every 5 secs. Means Condimes would still overperform with one more braincell used and Powermes can't use IH active and tactical anymore. Bad change. Just nerf the condi clone autoattacks and clone ambush attacks and give Condimes more active ways of condiapplication through shatters and IH will not be a problem anymore.

    I'm surprised you wasted your time to explain some of it...
    Imo if someone need an explanation of how absurd/stupid his idea, I dont have to explain it at all.
    There is literally no reason to put any ICD when you can adjust numbers easly on mesmer/clones. ICD on IH would mean every "on evade" skill would need ICD too.
    Why not put ICD on every trait that doenst have it while preaching "This would allow high skill ceiling blablabla".

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 10, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Vithzerai.3291 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Vithzerai.3291 said:
    Honestly, couldn't they just put an internal cooldown infinite horizon? Would allow Mesmer's a higher skill ceiling to time their bursts, opposing players would know about it instead of it happening every time a Mirage dodges or gets cloak from w/e. Maybe I'm being ignorant, but I just thought that might actually be a solid fix for people complaining about a lack of counterplay, myself included. Also doesn't hurt non-mirage mesmers either, 'cause I bet their fed up of their core traits getting nerfed.

    Also nerfs the questionable surviability of Mirage clones too, I think to an acceptable degree. Mebbe I'm wrong. vOv

    Your suggestion completely make no sense, not even a little.
    Are you complaining about 2400 hp on the clones ? Are you Jawgeous2?

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    • Buff player damage (ambushes and shatters) and nerf clone damage (IH).

    This is a good suggestion, move the damage to mesmer and remove it from clones.
    In this case you would need to evade only mesmer ambush, not clones.

    Why doesn't the suggestion make sense? And also, their health pool isn't what's relevant in making them survivable, is it.

    It makes no sense because an ICD on IH would kill the active gameplay aspect of it completely by hurting the problematic passive condiapplication only a little bit. Imagine a Powermesmer has to dodge an attack on himself and then a little bit later want to actively and tactical dodge pure offensive for a clone daze on sword to interrupt a heal use the mesmer is assuming to come or a dodge a Mesmer want to do to make the clones dodge a Thief Cloak and Dagger (both active and skilled plays) but now IH is on cd, the cd is used by a dodge a Mesmer did to avoid an attack and not for an use of IH effect. Now lets look at the Condimesmer, he knows he only does dmg like every 5 secs with a dodge (assuming 5 secs ICD on IH), if he has to dodge defensive a second time during IH is on ICD he just cover himself with another defensive tool like a scepter block or f4 use. Yes the Condimes needs one braincell more to keep the ICD of IH in mind but in the end he can just dodge as often as before and do the same dmg only the dmg is differently timed from no special timing to every 5 secs. Means Condimes would still overperform with one more braincell used and Powermes can't use IH active and tactical anymore. Bad change. Just nerf the condi clone autoattacks and clone ambush attacks and give Condimes more active ways of condiapplication through shatters and IH will not be a problem anymore.

    I'm surprised you wasted your time to explain some of it...
    Imo if someone need an explanation of how absurd/stupid his idea, I dont have to explain it at all.
    There is literally no reason to put any ICD when you can adjust numbers easly on mesmer/clones. ICD on IH would mean every "on evade" skill would need ICD too.
    Why not put ICD on every trait that doenst have it while preaching "This would allow high skill ceiling blablabla".

    I don't mind to answer ppl and give deeper insight on game mechanics as long as i have the feeling ppl are maybe interested in learning and not just complaining. Maybe that helps also for a better balance patch from Anet, when Anet understand their own game a bit better by reading informative and not biased forum posts (no clue if they do for balance purposes or only to regulate the forum) and also if Anet is less distracted by bronze lvl propaganda with more ppl understanding the game. I do that for all classes i feel the nerf complains would just dumb down the class instead of actually nerfing it and make it more skillbased. Ironically i have to do that mostly for Mesmer what maybe is because its class mechanic is not as simple as other classes to understand and Mesmer always was a good noobkiller and provokes for that more uninformed complains from unexperienced or bad players than other classes. Even when other classes rekt you, you at least can somehow understand what happened but to effective fight vs Mesmer you need to know at least a little bit about the class.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UBcktieDL.5318 said:

    1. Allow some sort of power build that doesn't involve a oneshot combo using GS. Maybe increase damage of Mind Wrack when used with 2 or 3 illusions, so Power Mes can still be bursty without going back into the degenerate pattern of stealth->GS2->MoD->Gs3->F1. Power Mes doesn't live up to it's illusionist fantasy.

    Yes! Please!!!!

    1. Mirage Cloak should no longer be useable while stunned.
    2. Trait "Elusive Mind" reworked: Exhaustion removed, stunbreak removed, now allows Mirage to dodge while CC'd. Not sure about keeping the condi remove part, it would fit well, but maybe it would already be too much. Goal is to force Mirage into a decision between more pressure (IH) and defense (EM).
    3. Staff Ambush nerfed for clones. Condi mirage has too much damage from this ambush skill with very little counterplay.
    4. Some rework of CI that removes the interrupt in favor of... something else. No concrete idea about this but it shoudn't turn interrupts into hard CC's, the domination trait that did the same got reworked for a reason.
    1. I'm fine with this but I think some of the vigor and jaunts needs to return.
    2. I agree that the damage is the issue, I feel just removing damaging conditions from ambushes would solve the problem so it's not a rain of damage, but still make them worth while even if you didn't have clones. In it's place retain the boons, and swap all offensive condis for control condis. (mostly Vulnerability, cripples, weakness, and short blinds.) This way we can have ambushes that do something- except directly pressure the health bar on condi builds. This makes Ambushes at worst cover condis if the primary application is reverted back to shatters.
    3. (2 fixes 3.)
    4. I feel like Imob should just be added to the RNG pool of condis, there is no reason for it to be a 100% guaranteed, that is unhealthy but the random nature is on theme and should make it a lot less of a struggle to deal with. Could always add Weaknees and Slow to dilute it. But I kind of think at that point it doesn't really deserve a GM slot anymore, and some may disagree but I wouldn't mind Auspicious Anguish being over written.
  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Could be worse guys, you could use endurance to activate ambush, so that's double endurance used

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:
    Could be worse guys, you could use endurance to activate ambush, so that's double endurance used

    Ye, thief could start with 0 initiative out of combat and gain it only in combat 1 per second.
    Rev could start with 0 energy on legend swap/ooc.
    Shroud could reset like adrenaline ooc.
    Everything could be different, right?

  • mrauls.6519mrauls.6519 Member ✭✭✭

    Condi mirage is too forgiving

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭

    @mrauls.6519 said:
    Condi mirage is too forgiving

    I really don't understand what kind of thought process got you to say this.

    Aside from protection, occassional rng aegis and scepter 2, what active/passive defenses does condi mirage have (and power does not)?

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @mrauls.6519 said:
    Condi mirage is too forgiving

    I really don't understand what kind of thought process got you to say this.

    Aside from protection, occassional rng aegis and scepter 2, what active/passive defenses does condi mirage have (and power does not)?

    mirage has hight dodge uptime, very good mobility, regeneration from signet and heavy armor class making it very tanky. Oh wait thats not mirage. :D
    mirage in all honestly has very reactive playstyle, unlike other classes.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 12, 2019

    @UBcktieDL.5318 said:
    3. Staff Ambush nerfed for clones. Condi mirage has too much damage from this ambush skill with very little counterplay.

    You can literally circle strafe it and 100% avoid it just with base movement. You can line of sight it. You can block it. You can dodge it. You can projectile reflect/destroy it. It has a 1s cast time which isn't 100% covered by mirage cloak so you can interrupt it. You can cleanse it after the fact. I don't know how much more counter play you get in this game over than that.

    What made CI So dominant is that the immobilization prevented you from physically moving out of the way of the projectile.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • duillyn.2697duillyn.2697 Member ✭✭
    edited August 13, 2019

    how about: IH only activates on full endurance, combats spam, has counterplay.

    Alliances were announced on the 2nd of February 2018

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