Kill Proof vs Skill level are Two Different things — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Kill Proof vs Skill level are Two Different things

Hex.8714Hex.8714 Member ✭✭

Anybody else is tired of those 500 LI and 100 kp grps that have lower skill level than some1 with 100 LI and 20 kp? Its like making a PvP team based around number of matches played, sure the amount of matches played does indicate player experience but not their skill level. its why there are people that are rank 500 in pvp with 10k matches that are stuck in gold/silver/ plat 1.
This is especially annoying when im trying to raid on my alt that dosent have much KP and dont feel like switching to my main. Sometimes I join the 50 kp grps on my main that perform far worse than 20 kp grps, they die on first boss then everyone leaves or they start kicking people that are not friends with the commander and replace them by other people.

Can we get rid of KP system and instead be able to track a player average DPS and the amount of times they go down and damage they take instead? These numbers could be tracked with something like a DPS meter but instead of 1 raid encounter it would calculate the total of the previous boss encounters. That way we can truly weed out the bad from the good and not just people that only raid on their main account since day 1 and claim to be talented.

Its like people used achievement points back in the day for dungeons, i remember joining 10k only achievement point groups that had full soldier gear warriors and shout stafff guardians claiming to be experienced, since bad players tend to over estimate their skill level there needs to be something else other than KP to measure skill level. This system is especially toxic to new players that are starting raids and wont be able to join any grp without full leggy armor or 50 kp of end boss.

Comments

  • Lexi.1398Lexi.1398 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2019

    Assessing dps/downs/damage taken when these things can so easily be skewed by:
    -use of /gg -leading/helping to run raid trainings -just joining raid trainings groups because one may prefer it even if exp -being in many bad PUGs -recently attempting a different boss that is new to that player (eg new raid wing), unless stats only compared to stats from that boss -per character doesn't account for build changes, minor or major, and the resulting change in dps from that (eg switching from dps to support in any of the multitude of specs that can do so), -per character also doesn't account for that someone may have very little history for kills on that character, but is still an exp player mechanic-wise and may be great at the build just rarely use for raiding -not being per character is silly in hopefully obvious ways but just incase: support/dps in same account, different builds with varyign dps potential and varying familiarity with roation. and that's not to mention logistically, the amount of data that needs to be held to make this for every character that has touched a raid.

    And that doesn't even make it less toxic, more toxic if anything to all players. New players just starting raids will have a bad record of a lot of downs and high damage taken and average to potentially low dps simply because these things are a natural result of first several times doing a given boss.

    The best indicator of skill is the first fight in the wing, if you got bad players you won't be wasting that much time since raid encounters are fairly short. Almost every measurement the game can give us will be flawed one way or another.

  • @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Killproof is the closest thing to estimating skill, or at the very least, knowing the mechanics.

    You might mean that kill proof is the easiest proxy available. It's definitely not the "closest" because it's not all that close. "Kill proofs" measure the number of times you've been present at a successful kill. About all that can be said is that it's better than nothing. Those of us who fractal can guarantee that we've seen people with champ or god/ess titles that make us wonder how they managed it.

    Other methods include sharing API keys or logs (or both) or giving people one or two pulls (and seeing what happens or simply asking people a key question or two. People who know the mechanics well won't have any trouble answering quickly; people who got carried will. The huge disadvantage of anything other than "kill proof" is that it takes effort, for the squad leader and for the PUG and ain't no one got time for that, apparently. Plus, people don't much like to chat. Pinging a deco or a unique-to-boss item is easy, quick, and painless.

    Everyone wants a single word answer to the question of, "is this player any good?" and that just doesn't exist. People like simplicity; actual ability is more nuanced.

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • Only Even.6193Only Even.6193 Member ✭✭
    edited August 8, 2019

    I stepped in a VG training squad yesterday that welcomed everyone, anyclass.
    We were 3-4 exp players, the other players were total newcomers in raids, some with no ascended gears at all, one Reaper with mastery 9 and around 800 AP, with green gears.
    The Com tooks like 5 minutes to explain the mechanics, and we killed it during the first try, 6m20s. Some blues but not a big deal... After that we tried Gorso but since we had two players with no mastery (our chrono had to port them on the platform to start) and not enough dps to skip each time, we called it a night.. Tho, we achieved 13% remaining before wipe.
    We did around 10 tries on Gorso with this comp and no one ragequited or started to blame anyone even once, we helped the newcomers to improve their rotations and utility slots, we gained some dps, we reached 13% but still wasn't enough. Still, it was one of the most pleasant raid sessions I ever had, it was a lot of fun.

    The most frustrating thing about this is that I've seen far worse from "full exp squad 200+li/kp". Most of those exp players can't even stand 1-2 wipes before leaving/kicking, acting like princesses so even if they made a mistake, you can't talk about it, because they can get angry at you/leave/kick you or even blaming the whole squad, or everything at the same time.
    So Kp/Li is absolutely not a sign of skill level because you'll never know in wich conditions a player obtained them, but as Illconceived said, It's the easiest thing to show.

    To me, a very high skilled raider is able to explain every mechanics clearly and describe every roles so even a newbie can understand quickly.

  • melandru.3876melandru.3876 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2019

    @Only Even.6193 said:
    I stepped in a VG training squad yesterday that welcomed everyone, anyclass.
    We were 3-4 exp players, the other players were total newcomers in raids, some with no ascended gears at all, one Reaper with mastery 9 and around 800 AP, with green gears.
    The Com tooks like 5 minutes to explain the mechanics, and we killed it during the first try, 6m20s. Some blues but not a big deal... After that we tried Gorso but since we had two players with no mastery (our chrono had to port them on the platform to start) and not enough dps to skip each time, we called it a night.. Tho, we achieved 13% remaining before wipe.
    We did around 10 tries on Gorso with this comp and no one ragequited or started to blame anyone even once, we helped the newcomers to improve their rotations and utility slots, we gained some dps, we reached 13% but still wasn't enough. Still, it was one of the most pleasant raid sessions I ever had, it was a lot of fun.

    The most frustrating thing about this is that I've seen far worse from "full exp squad 200+li/kp". Most of those exp players can't even stand 1-2 wipes before leaving/kicking, acting like princesses so even if they made a mistake, you can't talk about it, because they can get angry at you/leave/kick you or even blaming the whole squad, or everything at the same time.
    So Kp/Li is absolutely not a sign of skill level because you'll never know in wich conditions a player obtained them, but as Illconceived said, It's the easiest thing to show.

    To me, a very high skilled raider is able to explain every mechanics clearly and describe every roles so even a newbie can understand quickly.

    when you join a 200+ li group you expect a clear run, which is only natural
    you should only join on the class you are comfortable with, and with the exp needed.

    if you want to wipe, you are free to join training groups

    even better: every kill that becomes a mess should be gg'd and re-done. that is the true way to learn, and improve

  • Clyan.1593Clyan.1593 Member ✭✭✭

    OP you probably have been raiding with the 500 LI squad from monday evening, doing already bad on VG and then failing by 1% on Gorse due to some really bad DPS players. I was pugging in it as Druid and I can feel you. (I left after the second fail on Gorse).
    So if you ask me the real problem are people with a com tag inviting some friends and then ask for way more LI/KP then themself have in order to get carried fast through a couple of wings.

    However, it usually doesn't work, and its annoying for everyone because it's just a total waste of time.

    Contrary to that I had a few 200 LI squads yesterday and managed to kill around 10-12 bosses in one evening really easy.

    I'm at 494 LI and 160 LD, in case someone might find that relevant.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2019

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Killproof is the closest thing to estimating skill, or at the very least, knowing the mechanics.

    You might mean that kill proof is the easiest proxy available. It's definitely not the "closest" because it's not all that close. "Kill proofs" measure the number of times you've been present at a successful kill. About all that can be said is that it's better than nothing. Those of us who fractal can guarantee that we've seen people with champ or god/ess titles that make us wonder how they managed it.

    Other methods include sharing API keys or logs (or both) or giving people one or two pulls (and seeing what happens or simply asking people a key question or two. People who know the mechanics well won't have any trouble answering quickly; people who got carried will. The huge disadvantage of anything other than "kill proof" is that it takes effort, for the squad leader and for the PUG and ain't no one got time for that, apparently. Plus, people don't much like to chat. Pinging a deco or a unique-to-boss item is easy, quick, and painless.

    Everyone wants a single word answer to the question of, "is this player any good?" and that just doesn't exist. People like simplicity; actual ability is more nuanced.

    Well it’s the closest a thing to getting an estimation prior to doing the encounter. That’s what I was getting at. There’s no foolproof system to know for certain that the person you’re getting knows what they’re doing before doing the raid and risking wasting time.

    I see it as being no different than professional licenses that require hours. It’s by no means perfect but it gives an approximation of competency level.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hex.8714 said:
    Can we get rid of KP system and instead be able to track a player average DPS and the amount of times they go down and damage they take instead?

    Go for it TC. Be the herald of change. You can put any demand you want for your LFG.

    Best of luck.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hex.8714 said:
    Can we get rid of KP system and instead be able to track a player average DPS and the amount of times they go down and damage they take instead?

    So a player training and failing repeatedly will get 1000 deaths and then won't be able to find groups unless they get to god level for a few runs and get zero deaths.
    Also, with your idea raid trainers won't be able to find pug groups anymore.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭

    at first any kp can be only macro spam. You can be sure only if by mail was sended api key, and you do manual check.

    second - is changes:
    there is any unknow by that class that kp gettent .. For example someone all 95% play chrno, and have kp by it.. chrno get kick from meta? someone change char - link old kp and do first try... and etc.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:
    second - is changes:
    there is any unknow by that class that kp gettent .. For example someone all 95% play chrno, and have kp by it.. chrno get kick from meta? someone change char - link old kp and do first try... and etc.

    Can you clarify this part?

  • yusayu.3629yusayu.3629 Member ✭✭✭

    Then don't join them?

    The average skill of a 100kp Dhuum or CM group will be higher than that of a 10kp one. That's why people ask for KP.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @lare.5129 said:
    second - is changes:
    there is any unknow by that class that kp gettent .. For example someone all 95% play chrno, and have kp by it.. chrno get kick from meta? someone change char - link old kp and do first try... and etc.

    Can you clarify this part?

    ok, give example: you play chaos chrno 2 last year|, share boon and everyone happy. Few patches - chrno in non skied hands die. So after swap on dps, have low rotation, and can't more spam F-button to feel safe. .. PPl aroud you think - ''why it so LOOoooooW and have kp" .

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 10, 2019

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @lare.5129 said:
    second - is changes:
    there is any unknow by that class that kp gettent .. For example someone all 95% play chrno, and have kp by it.. chrno get kick from meta? someone change char - link old kp and do first try... and etc.

    Can you clarify this part?

    ok, give example: you play chaos chrno 2 last year|, share boon and everyone happy. Few patches - chrno in non skied hands die. So after swap on dps, have low rotation, and can't more spam F-button to feel safe. .. PPl aroud you think - ''why it so LOOoooooW and have kp" .

    I thought that was what you were referring to but wasn’t sure.

    KP isn’t used to estimate personal skill at a build; just the raid encounter. Failing mechanics will be the primary reason groups fail raid encounters. I said primary and not only. Build is certainly important, especially with some of the DPS checks, but there’s really not a good way to pre-screen players or at least as far as knowing how to play the class.

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭

    Kitty's personally stopped asking for KP ages ago simply because she's witnessed too many 250+LI/high KP groups that do worse than most training runs she comms. Kitty simply says "Know your job." (Usually with "Kitty has hot boots.") in the LFG and if she notices clear tells about some person not knowing their stuff in clear group (wrong weapons/signets/status/food/failing certain mech), she simply kicks and looks for another (though rarely needed). When it comes to druids, asking them to ping warhorn usually roots out the druids who never touch wh5 (though even then most of LFG druids enter CA way too seldom to keep up might properly). Asking chronos to ping focus at any wing where pulls are relevant (read: All but 5 and 7) also tends to help.

    Though when it comes to druids, very few druids lately have played it even decently and thus Kitty rather takes almost any other healer over a random druid to her runs these days. Except heal-scourges since people play it even worse as they only copy-pasta the build without reading how to use it. Too many heal-scourges try to kite Sab while camping dagger and then claim "Meta says so!".

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks and streams at twitch.tv/ladykittygw2 .

  • Rough average is 3kp/kill. 100 KP is asking for people with over 30 kills. Whether or not that's a reasonable gauge of competence is up to you.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭

    It's not an accurate depiction of skill level but rather simply a check for experience with the encounter (KP) or raids in general (LI).

    I do agree that it's silly when requirements climb higher and higher over time as someone who got carried through 5 kills will be able to get carried through 50+ kills as well.
    As it is, asking for some amount of KP is a decent check if you want people who have done the encounters at least a couple times before if you don't want to do a beginners training run, beyond that it's getting silly and you will still get bad players who managed to latch on to good groups all the same.
    Meanwhile, asking for lower amounts of KP gives good but new players who completed a few training runs the chance to prove and improve themselves.

    But to each their own, sometimes I'm guilty of asking for way too high KP as well just because it may make it marginally more likely to get better players, when really it just excludes a whole lot of good new people.

    Over all I think rising KP requirements are a symptom of lack of new content though. Players get bored and all that is left is mastering existing content which leads to increased frustration when things don't go perfectly, which leads to higher and higher entry levels in a futile attempt to weed out anyone but fellow veterans which eventually contributes to a shrinking community for that content, on top of the slow pace of new releases in of itself.

    "As you know, those who you once called friends have become enemies." ~Glint

  • DirtyDan.4759DirtyDan.4759 Member ✭✭✭

    If you don't like the rules of someone's squad just make your own one. Simple as that.

  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Killproof is the closest thing to estimating skill, or at the very least, knowing the mechanics.

    Killproof is practise proof. At least you've been in a squad that killed the boss XX times and had the chance to pick up rudimentary things so you dont get insta killed by every mechanic.
    Nothing to do with "skill".

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2019

    @Yasi.9065 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Killproof is the closest thing to estimating skill, or at the very least, knowing the mechanics.

    Killproof is practise proof. At least you've been in a squad that killed the boss XX times and had the chance to pick up rudimentary things so you dont get insta killed by every mechanic.
    Nothing to do with "skill".

    You’re conflating perfection with skill.

    Someone with no experience at a particular raid encounter can be considered to have no skill level at it. With each attempt/kill, that skill level increases. Someone with 50+ KP has a high probability of know the mechanics.

    It’s no different from professional licenses and such that require hours. Hours are as imperfect as KP but they give a good indication on what to expect from someone that you do not know.

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