Should ArenaNet remove duo? - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Should ArenaNet remove duo?

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  • Lighter.5631Lighter.5631 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2019
    Yes

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @Lighter.5631 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    You do realise that ArenaNet had stated on multiple occasions that soloQ has a higher winrate than duoQ?

    Where do you see these people with 90% wins in the leaderboard?

    DuoQ doesn't prevent people from soloing. Soloing does however prevent people from duoing.

    The season where they restricted duo for p2+ the games were even more awful because many of the top players just didn't even bother playing ranked that season.
    Also, we don't have the population to be able to split queues.

    you literally contradict yourself, first of all, not true soloq has higher winrate lol.

    ArenaNet has stated this on multiple occasions, I trust their stats more than your instinct.

    second of all, why you think top player didn't bother, because "top player" can't duoQ to the top (now who says soloq has higher winrate)

    The people at the top are top for a reason. The skillgap between the mAT winners and the rest of the p2 players are enormous. They would be there regardless of duo or not.

    btw only way to get to the top of lb right now is duoq, none of those winrates on top LB are maintainable without duoq.

    Obindo got over 1900 as solo. Boyce reached top 10 numerous times in this last season soloing.

    i can also argue the higher placement they are, the less soloq they do.

    Can you back this up?> @Kamskill.9457 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    @AngelsShadow.7360 said:
    In high level play, duoQ actually has very little ability to affect the outcome of games with the exception of games around 7-9am. This is because the matchmaking system works and gives you players that are in gold if you're soloQ and in Legend, let alone duoQ. If you want more evidence of this, I would recommend watching Boyce's stream vods from the past season. You will see that despite him being the best mechanical player in the game he cannot carry some games, even when duoQ with other good players.

    Leaderboards without Merged Queues:
    Top 250 maintain 50-70% winrates, very few alt or boosted accounts.

    Leaderboards with merged queues:
    Most the top 250 still retain pretty average winrates, but the very highest players see a dramatic shift. 80-90% Winrates with well over a hundred games played, less than 20 lost. Alt and boosted accounts filling the other very top spots. Bugs make Season13's ratings highly inflated and meaningless.

    To say merged queues don't effect the outcome of games, in a gamemode where they're literally unchecked, within a population that's already too small to stand any semblance of a chance of ever mirroring the higher-rated ones is pretty absurd.

    The matchmaker isn't functional enough at all to operate with DuoQ as it is. When silvers and golds are thrown onto a team with two top players, that isn't in any way at all fair or reasonable. It's not exactly healthy(or even adequately effective judging by the LB) for the game, to throw people several hundred rating below another on the same team just to make up for the disparity they create between their ratings and the population. People tend to play ranked in any game for more fair and more competitive matchmaking to unranked. Not to be treated as gap fillers to what has essentially become a monopolistic farm for a handful of top players.

    You all vastly overestimate the value that DuoQ brings. Now, one thing that cannot be stated enough is the fact that for high level players SoloQ ranked is ridiculously unfun. A lot of you have no idea how it feels to be in plat3/legend and get players significantly lower skilled (not that being bad at the game is terrible, they just shouldn't be matchmade with really good players as its unfair for everyone). It leads to a lot of frustration, and a lot of players quit the game as a result of it before DuoQ for Plat 2+ was reinstated. DuoQ brings some solace with it, because a high leveled player can share the depressing experience with a friend, and it makes it better and less frustrating, even if your chances of winning are equal if not lowered by DuoQ, its more fun.

    I've touched P3 a few times, and I know that feel. Honestly, as an almost exclusively SoloQ player; I actually felt the rating of my teammates was way closer in matchmaking when DuoQ was restricted. With it unrestricted, I could have someone on my team who's a top player; queued with another top player smurfing on a silver, and sniping low-mid level players. The matchmaking is objectively worse in that scenario(Which isn't all that uncommon either, towards the end of a ranked season.)

    It's made the game more boring for me; as someone who really only plays for a competitive rush, when the competition is leagues below me. That fun, my fun is ruined is ruined by DuoQs being forced into my games. I'm only speaking for myself too, and I can't imagine the pressure and disappointment anyone actually playing at the gold or silver level must feel right now. I would not be surprised at all if all this made anyone in our positions quit as well, nor am I going to show even the slightest amount of sympathy when people go threatening to quit when they can't play with friends, because this is how we pay for that.

    Surely you see the hypocrisy there. Nothing makes either side more entitled. Why should one side be forced to quit just so the other can have fun? Arenanet should really just split the queues up and make everyone, but the people abusing it happy. Even those who do abuse DuoQ in every way possible to inflate their ranks and egos, would have to grit their teeth and just accept that.

    I mean it, there really is no reason, none at all; as to why SoloQ players can't have the option to play purely with other SoloQ players. Let Duos and Teams play against other Duos and teams, and let people SoloQ separately against only other SoloQ people in the meantime. Two ways to play ranked, both separate from the other.

    DuoQ as it is, is unacceptable; because that fun you have is at the expense of the fun and competitive experience of the vast majority of other players, and ultimately that's why merged queues need to get gone. They're as much a drain on ranked's population as SoloQ only was.

    You do realise that ArenaNet had stated on multiple occasions that soloQ has a higher winrate than duoQ?

    Where do you see these people with 90% wins in the leaderboard?

    DuoQ doesn't prevent people from soloing. Soloing does however prevent people from duoing.

    The season where they restricted duo for p2+ the games were even more awful because many of the top players just didn't even bother playing ranked that season.
    Also, we don't have the population to be able to split queues.

    DuoQ has lower winrate than SoloQ in lower ratings probably, where it's just 2 friends that wanna casually play together and most likely lose together since they don't even play to win, which makes DuoQ even worse and unhealthy for pvp.

    Top 1-3 have all very high winrate (i'm talking from my EU PoV), Season 16's top 1 and 2 had very close to 90% (Wing and Briseis).

    TL;DR Did the players that didn't play ranked when duoQ were removed came back now that it's back though ?

    You aren't backing this up with any factual proof.
    Briseis also got the title stripped due to wintrading.
    Yes, a lot of people came back for the seasons after it got reinstated. Not all of them though.

    such weak arguments."hey, let's mention one or two exception out of 100 so my argument stands" when majority of the top ranks are duoqs, so much for factual proof when you are the one lacking, let alone not a single citation when mentioning anet.

    also how is he not backing up with factual proof, he literally just described the leaderboard...you are making no sense
    and "a lot of people" where's your factual proof, because i see no one.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes

    As usual, we shouldn't blame each other. Both variants have advantages and disadvantages, objectivity can hardly help here. We simply need swiss ATs for real competitive and on-demand team play. And ranked can measure solo skill. Unranked for fun.

    A split mixedQ for ranked would be nice if the population is high enough, but in general I don't think duoQ/soloQ is the biggest issue PVP has right now.

  • As soon as on-demand ATs come out, ranked can go back to SoloQ for all I care. All the good players will be playing that anyway.

  • Yes

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    You do realise that ArenaNet had stated on multiple occasions that soloQ has a higher winrate than duoQ?

    Where do you see these people with 90% wins in the leaderboard?

    On the Leaderboard, maybe? https://imgur.com/eomgmUX

    Rank 1 quite literally has a 90% Winrate, and most the ones highlighted have close to or well over 80%.

    I know this is different from SoloQ, because when Plat2 was restricted; the winrates looked average. It was still the same people mostly; with a few paid-to-be-boosted accounts, but the winrates were much closer to how they are for everyone else. Ever since DuoQ came back, the Leaderboards have looked like that mess. So you can tell me that Arenanet said, or Arenanet could even tell me themselves, and it'd still be hard for me to take that as little more than a technicality, put together by lower-rated DuoQ's.

    DuoQ doesn't prevent people from soloing. Soloing does however prevent people from duoing.

    This is exactly what I mean. The options shouldn't be to have either one or the other, or the two of them together in a single queue. If you split the queues, literally everyone but those using DuoQ to farm and manipulate the gamemode win in that case.

    The season where they restricted duo for p2+ the games were even more awful because many of the top players just didn't even bother playing ranked that season.

    Like I said before, it's hard to be sympathetic once you see the hypocrisy. Not all, but a good handful of top players have exploited DuoQ in every way possible since it came back to snipe and farm lower-rated players, which; just as easily could have made them or anyone stuck in the middle who just wants to play ranked without any outside nonsense quit as well. Why should I, Arenanet, or anyone else get all "Oh no! Please don't quit!" When all we get is apathy and abuse?

    Also, we don't have the population to be able to split queues.

    But we have the population to merge them? Like I say, DuoQ is as much a drain on ranked's population as SoloQ-only was. This excuse doesn't make any sense when there's blatant catering and favoritism going on to the top% of players. It only makes the issue a self-perpetuating one, and really; it's moreso an argument against merged queues, rather than an argument against split queues.

    Merging the queues in a low population is the reason we see such crazy winrates from the very highest % of players. The population is way too low to ever properly mirror what they're doing, and that's not to mention that DuoQ is outright broken in a lot of places.

    Splitting the queues gets rid of nearly every issue merged queues create, and ensures every team will be similarly coordinated at the very least. It also makes the population issue a little less self-perpetuating, because neither side is getting actively burned or catered to.

    Remove Ranked DuoQ pls&ty

  • Kamskill.9457Kamskill.9457 Member ✭✭
    edited August 14, 2019
    Yes

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @Lighter.5631 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    You do realise that ArenaNet had stated on multiple occasions that soloQ has a higher winrate than duoQ?

    Where do you see these people with 90% wins in the leaderboard?

    DuoQ doesn't prevent people from soloing. Soloing does however prevent people from duoing.

    The season where they restricted duo for p2+ the games were even more awful because many of the top players just didn't even bother playing ranked that season.
    Also, we don't have the population to be able to split queues.

    you literally contradict yourself, first of all, not true soloq has higher winrate lol.

    ArenaNet has stated this on multiple occasions, I trust their stats more than your instinct.

    second of all, why you think top player didn't bother, because "top player" can't duoQ to the top (now who says soloq has higher winrate)

    The people at the top are top for a reason. The skillgap between the mAT winners and the rest of the p2 players are enormous. They would be there regardless of duo or not.

    btw only way to get to the top of lb right now is duoq, none of those winrates on top LB are maintainable without duoq.

    Obindo got over 1900 as solo. Boyce reached top 10 numerous times in this last season soloing.

    i can also argue the higher placement they are, the less soloq they do.

    Can you back this up?> @Kamskill.9457 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    @AngelsShadow.7360 said:
    In high level play, duoQ actually has very little ability to affect the outcome of games with the exception of games around 7-9am. This is because the matchmaking system works and gives you players that are in gold if you're soloQ and in Legend, let alone duoQ. If you want more evidence of this, I would recommend watching Boyce's stream vods from the past season. You will see that despite him being the best mechanical player in the game he cannot carry some games, even when duoQ with other good players.

    Leaderboards without Merged Queues:
    Top 250 maintain 50-70% winrates, very few alt or boosted accounts.

    Leaderboards with merged queues:
    Most the top 250 still retain pretty average winrates, but the very highest players see a dramatic shift. 80-90% Winrates with well over a hundred games played, less than 20 lost. Alt and boosted accounts filling the other very top spots. Bugs make Season13's ratings highly inflated and meaningless.

    To say merged queues don't effect the outcome of games, in a gamemode where they're literally unchecked, within a population that's already too small to stand any semblance of a chance of ever mirroring the higher-rated ones is pretty absurd.

    The matchmaker isn't functional enough at all to operate with DuoQ as it is. When silvers and golds are thrown onto a team with two top players, that isn't in any way at all fair or reasonable. It's not exactly healthy(or even adequately effective judging by the LB) for the game, to throw people several hundred rating below another on the same team just to make up for the disparity they create between their ratings and the population. People tend to play ranked in any game for more fair and more competitive matchmaking to unranked. Not to be treated as gap fillers to what has essentially become a monopolistic farm for a handful of top players.

    You all vastly overestimate the value that DuoQ brings. Now, one thing that cannot be stated enough is the fact that for high level players SoloQ ranked is ridiculously unfun. A lot of you have no idea how it feels to be in plat3/legend and get players significantly lower skilled (not that being bad at the game is terrible, they just shouldn't be matchmade with really good players as its unfair for everyone). It leads to a lot of frustration, and a lot of players quit the game as a result of it before DuoQ for Plat 2+ was reinstated. DuoQ brings some solace with it, because a high leveled player can share the depressing experience with a friend, and it makes it better and less frustrating, even if your chances of winning are equal if not lowered by DuoQ, its more fun.

    I've touched P3 a few times, and I know that feel. Honestly, as an almost exclusively SoloQ player; I actually felt the rating of my teammates was way closer in matchmaking when DuoQ was restricted. With it unrestricted, I could have someone on my team who's a top player; queued with another top player smurfing on a silver, and sniping low-mid level players. The matchmaking is objectively worse in that scenario(Which isn't all that uncommon either, towards the end of a ranked season.)

    It's made the game more boring for me; as someone who really only plays for a competitive rush, when the competition is leagues below me. That fun, my fun is ruined is ruined by DuoQs being forced into my games. I'm only speaking for myself too, and I can't imagine the pressure and disappointment anyone actually playing at the gold or silver level must feel right now. I would not be surprised at all if all this made anyone in our positions quit as well, nor am I going to show even the slightest amount of sympathy when people go threatening to quit when they can't play with friends, because this is how we pay for that.

    Surely you see the hypocrisy there. Nothing makes either side more entitled. Why should one side be forced to quit just so the other can have fun? Arenanet should really just split the queues up and make everyone, but the people abusing it happy. Even those who do abuse DuoQ in every way possible to inflate their ranks and egos, would have to grit their teeth and just accept that.

    I mean it, there really is no reason, none at all; as to why SoloQ players can't have the option to play purely with other SoloQ players. Let Duos and Teams play against other Duos and teams, and let people SoloQ separately against only other SoloQ people in the meantime. Two ways to play ranked, both separate from the other.

    DuoQ as it is, is unacceptable; because that fun you have is at the expense of the fun and competitive experience of the vast majority of other players, and ultimately that's why merged queues need to get gone. They're as much a drain on ranked's population as SoloQ only was.

    You do realise that ArenaNet had stated on multiple occasions that soloQ has a higher winrate than duoQ?

    Where do you see these people with 90% wins in the leaderboard?

    DuoQ doesn't prevent people from soloing. Soloing does however prevent people from duoing.

    The season where they restricted duo for p2+ the games were even more awful because many of the top players just didn't even bother playing ranked that season.
    Also, we don't have the population to be able to split queues.

    DuoQ has lower winrate than SoloQ in lower ratings probably, where it's just 2 friends that wanna casually play together and most likely lose together since they don't even play to win, which makes DuoQ even worse and unhealthy for pvp.

    Top 1-3 have all very high winrate (i'm talking from my EU PoV), Season 16's top 1 and 2 had very close to 90% (Wing and Briseis).

    TL;DR Did the players that didn't play ranked when duoQ were removed came back now that it's back though ?

    You aren't backing this up with any factual proof.
    Briseis also got the title stripped due to wintrading.
    Yes, a lot of people came back for the seasons after it got reinstated. Not all of them though.

    How do you want to backup how people think ? I'm saying that from experience, knowing that some of my friends that are lower rated go DuoQ without tryharding not even a little. I know that some from my wvw server does it too, i met some random Duos on my alt that were clearly not tryharding neither or very bad idk.
    You can't backup psychology that easily that's why numbers and stats are so inhuman in a way.
    Btw can you back up your statement about Anet saying multiple times that DuoQ have higher winrate than SoloQ ? I'd like to see it by curiosity.

    Yes Briseis lost his title due to wintrading, but what about Wing ? So that still answer your question which was "Where do you see these people with 90% wins in the leaderboard?" I mentionned only them but there were others seasons before too, you can't say DuoQ didn't help them.
    Boyce did some duos, proof : his stream, but he's not playing for his ranking anymore so he's an exception. Idk about Obindo but you clearly can't say wether he did duo or not. I'm not saying that they don't deserve to be on the top spot though, they clearly do, but that's how ranked matches works, there are unwinnable games due to pugs as Solos, and DuoQ-ing gives an edge and contribute to the fact that some games are unwinnable.

    That's my alt account btw

  • No

    @Kamskill.9457 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @Lighter.5631 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    You do realise that ArenaNet had stated on multiple occasions that soloQ has a higher winrate than duoQ?

    Where do you see these people with 90% wins in the leaderboard?

    DuoQ doesn't prevent people from soloing. Soloing does however prevent people from duoing.

    The season where they restricted duo for p2+ the games were even more awful because many of the top players just didn't even bother playing ranked that season.
    Also, we don't have the population to be able to split queues.

    you literally contradict yourself, first of all, not true soloq has higher winrate lol.

    ArenaNet has stated this on multiple occasions, I trust their stats more than your instinct.

    second of all, why you think top player didn't bother, because "top player" can't duoQ to the top (now who says soloq has higher winrate)

    The people at the top are top for a reason. The skillgap between the mAT winners and the rest of the p2 players are enormous. They would be there regardless of duo or not.

    btw only way to get to the top of lb right now is duoq, none of those winrates on top LB are maintainable without duoq.

    Obindo got over 1900 as solo. Boyce reached top 10 numerous times in this last season soloing.

    i can also argue the higher placement they are, the less soloq they do.

    Can you back this up?> @Kamskill.9457 said:

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    @AngelsShadow.7360 said:
    In high level play, duoQ actually has very little ability to affect the outcome of games with the exception of games around 7-9am. This is because the matchmaking system works and gives you players that are in gold if you're soloQ and in Legend, let alone duoQ. If you want more evidence of this, I would recommend watching Boyce's stream vods from the past season. You will see that despite him being the best mechanical player in the game he cannot carry some games, even when duoQ with other good players.

    Leaderboards without Merged Queues:
    Top 250 maintain 50-70% winrates, very few alt or boosted accounts.

    Leaderboards with merged queues:
    Most the top 250 still retain pretty average winrates, but the very highest players see a dramatic shift. 80-90% Winrates with well over a hundred games played, less than 20 lost. Alt and boosted accounts filling the other very top spots. Bugs make Season13's ratings highly inflated and meaningless.

    To say merged queues don't effect the outcome of games, in a gamemode where they're literally unchecked, within a population that's already too small to stand any semblance of a chance of ever mirroring the higher-rated ones is pretty absurd.

    The matchmaker isn't functional enough at all to operate with DuoQ as it is. When silvers and golds are thrown onto a team with two top players, that isn't in any way at all fair or reasonable. It's not exactly healthy(or even adequately effective judging by the LB) for the game, to throw people several hundred rating below another on the same team just to make up for the disparity they create between their ratings and the population. People tend to play ranked in any game for more fair and more competitive matchmaking to unranked. Not to be treated as gap fillers to what has essentially become a monopolistic farm for a handful of top players.

    You all vastly overestimate the value that DuoQ brings. Now, one thing that cannot be stated enough is the fact that for high level players SoloQ ranked is ridiculously unfun. A lot of you have no idea how it feels to be in plat3/legend and get players significantly lower skilled (not that being bad at the game is terrible, they just shouldn't be matchmade with really good players as its unfair for everyone). It leads to a lot of frustration, and a lot of players quit the game as a result of it before DuoQ for Plat 2+ was reinstated. DuoQ brings some solace with it, because a high leveled player can share the depressing experience with a friend, and it makes it better and less frustrating, even if your chances of winning are equal if not lowered by DuoQ, its more fun.

    I've touched P3 a few times, and I know that feel. Honestly, as an almost exclusively SoloQ player; I actually felt the rating of my teammates was way closer in matchmaking when DuoQ was restricted. With it unrestricted, I could have someone on my team who's a top player; queued with another top player smurfing on a silver, and sniping low-mid level players. The matchmaking is objectively worse in that scenario(Which isn't all that uncommon either, towards the end of a ranked season.)

    It's made the game more boring for me; as someone who really only plays for a competitive rush, when the competition is leagues below me. That fun, my fun is ruined is ruined by DuoQs being forced into my games. I'm only speaking for myself too, and I can't imagine the pressure and disappointment anyone actually playing at the gold or silver level must feel right now. I would not be surprised at all if all this made anyone in our positions quit as well, nor am I going to show even the slightest amount of sympathy when people go threatening to quit when they can't play with friends, because this is how we pay for that.

    Surely you see the hypocrisy there. Nothing makes either side more entitled. Why should one side be forced to quit just so the other can have fun? Arenanet should really just split the queues up and make everyone, but the people abusing it happy. Even those who do abuse DuoQ in every way possible to inflate their ranks and egos, would have to grit their teeth and just accept that.

    I mean it, there really is no reason, none at all; as to why SoloQ players can't have the option to play purely with other SoloQ players. Let Duos and Teams play against other Duos and teams, and let people SoloQ separately against only other SoloQ people in the meantime. Two ways to play ranked, both separate from the other.

    DuoQ as it is, is unacceptable; because that fun you have is at the expense of the fun and competitive experience of the vast majority of other players, and ultimately that's why merged queues need to get gone. They're as much a drain on ranked's population as SoloQ only was.

    You do realise that ArenaNet had stated on multiple occasions that soloQ has a higher winrate than duoQ?

    Where do you see these people with 90% wins in the leaderboard?

    DuoQ doesn't prevent people from soloing. Soloing does however prevent people from duoing.

    The season where they restricted duo for p2+ the games were even more awful because many of the top players just didn't even bother playing ranked that season.
    Also, we don't have the population to be able to split queues.

    DuoQ has lower winrate than SoloQ in lower ratings probably, where it's just 2 friends that wanna casually play together and most likely lose together since they don't even play to win, which makes DuoQ even worse and unhealthy for pvp.

    Top 1-3 have all very high winrate (i'm talking from my EU PoV), Season 16's top 1 and 2 had very close to 90% (Wing and Briseis).

    TL;DR Did the players that didn't play ranked when duoQ were removed came back now that it's back though ?

    You aren't backing this up with any factual proof.
    Briseis also got the title stripped due to wintrading.
    Yes, a lot of people came back for the seasons after it got reinstated. Not all of them though.

    How do you want to backup how people think ? I'm saying that from experience, knowing that some of my friends that are lower rated go DuoQ without tryharding not even a little. I know that some from my wvw server does it too, i met some random Duos on my alt that were clearly not tryharding neither or very bad idk.
    You can't backup psychology that easily that's why numbers and stats are so inhuman in a way.
    Btw can you back up your statement about Anet saying multiple times that DuoQ have higher winrate than SoloQ ? I'd like to see it by curiosity.

    Yes Briseis lost his title due to wintrading, but what about Wing ? So that still answer your question which was "Where do you see these people with 90% wins in the leaderboard?" I mentionned only them but there were others seasons before too, you can't say DuoQ didn't help them.
    Boyce did some duos, proof : his stream, but he's not playing for his ranking anymore so he's an exception. Idk about Boyce but you clearly can't say wether he did duo or not. I'm not saying that they don't deserve to be on the top spot though, they clearly do, but that's how ranked matches works, there are unwinnable games due to pugs as Solos, and DuoQ-ing gives an edge and contribute to the fact that some games are unwinnable.

    I really don't have the time nor the patience to dig through 1000s of threads. I can however @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 in hopes that he can once again confirm it.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes

    I have no idea why you guys discuss winrates of duo vs solo when the problem is with those few players at the very top.

    But again, I see much more urgent problems. I don't like duoQ, but it is also not as bad as many people think it is.

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