What if we just didn't have a delay for overloads? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

What if we just didn't have a delay for overloads?

ROMANG.1903ROMANG.1903 Member ✭✭✭
edited August 8, 2019 in Elementalist

Wouldn't the specialisation feel much better if we could overload instantly after entering an attunement? Isn't the doubled attunement cooldown enough of a drawback already for overloading?

What if the overload gradually became more powerful the longer we retained that attunement and the more weapon skills we used before overloading? That would feel more like an active class mechanic in my opinion, instead of passively just... waiting... for the overload to be ready. What if we could slightly customize the overloads with grandmaster trait options?

Comments

  • alain.1659alain.1659 Member ✭✭✭

    All that tempest needs is a proper stability while overloading. It will solve all my issues.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2019

    They couldnt really remove attunements so but they still wanted to change how you approach/play the class.

    Core elementalist already wants to swap a lot. Weaver wants to swap more to get more dual attacks and cycle through. Hence the 4s global attunement CD. Tempest wants to stay that extra bit longer to get the overload. Hence no change to base ele timings but the wait time for use and I creased cool down afterwards so you are more likely to rotate slower.

    You're idea kind of removes some of the focus and makes tempest more of a straight elementalist+ than it already is. It's likely on the list to get a different trade off. Customizing via traits it's fine but I wouldn't say the playstyle is passive. You need to make choices and deal with opportunity cost.

    One of the reasons I consider weaver to be better designed is due to threads asking for f5 unravel. It means they like the spec but miss something that was given up.

  • ROMANG.1903ROMANG.1903 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    One of the reasons I consider weaver to be better designed is due to threads asking for f5 unravel. It means they like the spec but miss something that was given up.

    I think people are asking for F5 Unravel because that utility is trash. I think it should remain a utility skill, but perhaps add a charge and remove the stance component? Make it a single use thing rather than something that lingers and impairs your rotation after the desired effect...

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ROMANG.1903 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    One of the reasons I consider weaver to be better designed is due to threads asking for f5 unravel. It means they like the spec but miss something that was given up.

    I think people are asking for F5 Unravel because that utility is trash. I think it should remain a utility skill, but perhaps add a charge and remove the stance component? Make it a single use thing rather than something that lingers and impairs your rotation after the desired effect...

    When you compare weaver stances to stances on other classes they dont even make sense. Stance was supposed to be a 4-5 sec long effect that gives you certain benefit. Then you have twist of fate and unravel which are simple and instant skill casts, they have nothing to do with stances whatsoever.

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  • @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    They couldnt really remove attunements so but they still wanted to change how you approach/play the class.

    Core elementalist already wants to swap a lot. Weaver wants to swap more to get more dual attacks and cycle through. Hence the 4s global attunement CD. Tempest wants to stay that extra bit longer to get the overload. Hence no change to base ele timings but the wait time for use and I creased cool down afterwards so you are more likely to rotate slower.

    You're idea kind of removes some of the focus and makes tempest more of a straight elementalist+ than it already is. It's likely on the list to get a different trade off. Customizing via traits it's fine but I wouldn't say the playstyle is passive. You need to make choices and deal with opportunity cost.

    One of the reasons I consider weaver to be better designed is due to threads asking for f5 unravel. It means they like the spec but miss something that was given up.

    I just want weavers to have more utilities that are friendly to staff users... Because all are kinda melee or defense based which is kinda annoying.

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭

    As long as fresh air exists, instant overloads would be impossible to balance.

    The other reason they probably have a setup time is to avoid burst damage from doing multiple overloads consecutively, though that channel time is already probably enough for that.

    although, an instant overload wouldn't make much sense thematically speaking. The elementalist should "charge" an element before overloading it, so some kind of time mechanic makes the most sense.

    What I'd personally love is to be able to swap attunenents during an overload without cancelling it (like all other elementalist skills, such as meteor shower). :)

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Its good to have a delay but 5 sec is too long it should be more on the lines of 3 sec. The ideal is to make core ele have 0 goble cd on its ability to swap different atument but make all of the elite spec have a 3 sec goble cd for swap. This will help defin core ele vs its elite spec and will give tempest its 3 sec wait time for its overloads.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • ROMANG.1903ROMANG.1903 Member ✭✭✭

    @Skotlex.7580 said:
    As long as fresh air exists, instant overloads would be impossible to balance.

    This can be balanced. Fresh Air shouldn't affect the overload's cooldown anyway, just that of the attunement.

    The other reason they probably have a setup time is to avoid burst damage from doing multiple overloads consecutively, though that channel time is already probably enough for that.

    although, an instant overload wouldn't make much sense thematically speaking. The elementalist should "charge" an element before overloading it, so some kind of time mechanic makes the most sense.

    Hence the idea of making it more powerful as you remain in the attunement, it would then be useless to overload right away.

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What if, instead, delays and cast-time investments were just things that everyone had? You know, like a game with an actual risk/reward-based skill ceiling?

  • @alain.1659 said:
    All that tempest needs is a proper stability while overloading. It will solve all my issues.

    Yes and no this with the stability I already suggest a longer time ago my suggestion was that every second pulse of the overload we get an extra stabi with the same duration as the original. The problem is we already have a trait which makes soft cc useless against us also overload is a stunbreak . hmm maybe if we make it part of the other option in the trait meaning a part of the last top trait so you have to choose either. But maybe it good how I thought because with the stabi I have mostly fire overload in mind

    The No is for PvE Staff Tempest is too underwhelming (max 22k) dps the fire overload needs 20% more DPS(should be okay for wvw and Pvp small aoe cycle) and Lava Font needs 2 more pulses = 28k roughly. In theory you are with 30k acceptable for PvE content . So if it is still too low skills 1&2 on air needs a tiny bit of more dmg then( 5% on both or so).

    The best would be when Air Overload would target 5 instead of 3 but they won't do it at least not with a nerf . Reason from my side for this would be just loot.

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

    @alain.1659 said:
    All that tempest needs is a proper stability while overloading. It will solve all my issues.

    Yes and no this with the stability I already suggest a longer time ago my suggestion was that every second pulse of the overload we get an extra stabi with the same duration as the original. The problem is we already have a trait which makes soft cc useless against us also overload is a stunbreak . hmm maybe if we make it part of the other option in the trait meaning a part of the last top trait so you have to choose either. But maybe it good how I thought because with the stabi I have mostly fire overload in mind

    The No is for PvE Staff Tempest is too underwhelming (max 22k) dps the fire overload needs 20% more DPS(should be okay for wvw and Pvp small aoe cycle) and Lava Font needs 2 more pulses = 28k roughly. In theory you are with 30k acceptable for PvE content . So if it is still too low skills 1&2 on air needs a tiny bit of more dmg then( 5% on both or so).

    The best would be when Air Overload would target 5 instead of 3 but they won't do it at least not with a nerf . Reason from my side for this would be just loot.

    More stability would probably not break the game even with tempest's ability to trait anti-soft cc options. First of all, lucid singularity is almost never taken currently. Secondly and most importantly, stability can be removed with boon removal and corrupt. Corrupting is an especially painful counter because it gets converted to fear, which would break the overload. Either way it's very easy to counter a 4 second cast so something needs to be done imo, unless of course Anet is willing to give every other class such easily interrupted skills with big penalties if you get interrupted. Then it would be fine.

    Also, I find the notion that overloads need a damage buff rather dubious. It is true that staff tempest is way too underwhelming, but this is not the fault of the tempest specialization. Staff is the problem here because it has always had close to worthless damage outside of fire. Its saving grace was that the fire damage skills were insanely good, until they got nerfed which made them just good, so they no longer carry a weapon that is bad in every other attunement. Other weapon sets can cope with the 5 sec delay on overloads because they have some decent skills they can use in air before overloading. Staff basically has nothing, especially in PvE. You have a mediocre air auto and lightning surge which is kind of okay. That's basically it. You cannot even use static field as a proper CC to break a breakbar for PvE bosses most of the time. Not even going to talk about water and earth because it's even worse in those attunements.

  • @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

    @alain.1659 said:
    All that tempest needs is a proper stability while overloading. It will solve all my issues.

    Yes and no this with the stability I already suggest a longer time ago my suggestion was that every second pulse of the overload we get an extra stabi with the same duration as the original. The problem is we already have a trait which makes soft cc useless against us also overload is a stunbreak . hmm maybe if we make it part of the other option in the trait meaning a part of the last top trait so you have to choose either. But maybe it good how I thought because with the stabi I have mostly fire overload in mind

    The No is for PvE Staff Tempest is too underwhelming (max 22k) dps the fire overload needs 20% more DPS(should be okay for wvw and Pvp small aoe cycle) and Lava Font needs 2 more pulses = 28k roughly. In theory you are with 30k acceptable for PvE content . So if it is still too low skills 1&2 on air needs a tiny bit of more dmg then( 5% on both or so).

    The best would be when Air Overload would target 5 instead of 3 but they won't do it at least not with a nerf . Reason from my side for this would be just loot.

    More stability would probably not break the game even with tempest's ability to trait anti-soft cc options. First of all, lucid singularity is almost never taken currently. Secondly and most importantly, stability can be removed with boon removal and corrupt. Corrupting is an especially painful counter because it gets converted to fear, which would break the overload. Either way it's very easy to counter a 4 second cast so something needs to be done imo, unless of course Anet is willing to give every other class such easily interrupted skills with big penalties if you get interrupted. Then it would be fine.

    Also, I find the notion that overloads need a damage buff rather dubious. It is true that staff tempest is way too underwhelming, but this is not the fault of the tempest specialization. Staff is the problem here because it has always had close to worthless damage outside of fire. Its saving grace was that the fire damage skills were insanely good, until they got nerfed which made them just good, so they no longer carry a weapon that is bad in every other attunement. Other weapon sets can cope with the 5 sec delay on overloads because they have some decent skills they can use in air before overloading. Staff basically has nothing, especially in PvE. You have a mediocre air auto and lightning surge which is kind of okay. That's basically it. You cannot even use static field as a proper CC to break a breakbar for PvE bosses most of the time. Not even going to talk about water and earth because it's even worse in those attunements.

    First in Wvw I go with the trait which makes soft cc go away. Staff is maybe weak but the difference between Staff Weaver and Staff Tempest is through their mechanics for Tempest is their Overlodas . Air Overload got buffed recently so it they won't do it again soon . But I did look in the history of both overloads now . But I also see Air overload got nerfed again and again over the time (-7%,-10%,-18%). Fire is just the alternative . And I do say Staff needs a buff but I also see they won't let it past the other builds. meaning Swordwaever and the new Tempest built.

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

    @alain.1659 said:
    All that tempest needs is a proper stability while overloading. It will solve all my issues.

    Yes and no this with the stability I already suggest a longer time ago my suggestion was that every second pulse of the overload we get an extra stabi with the same duration as the original. The problem is we already have a trait which makes soft cc useless against us also overload is a stunbreak . hmm maybe if we make it part of the other option in the trait meaning a part of the last top trait so you have to choose either. But maybe it good how I thought because with the stabi I have mostly fire overload in mind

    The No is for PvE Staff Tempest is too underwhelming (max 22k) dps the fire overload needs 20% more DPS(should be okay for wvw and Pvp small aoe cycle) and Lava Font needs 2 more pulses = 28k roughly. In theory you are with 30k acceptable for PvE content . So if it is still too low skills 1&2 on air needs a tiny bit of more dmg then( 5% on both or so).

    The best would be when Air Overload would target 5 instead of 3 but they won't do it at least not with a nerf . Reason from my side for this would be just loot.

    More stability would probably not break the game even with tempest's ability to trait anti-soft cc options. First of all, lucid singularity is almost never taken currently. Secondly and most importantly, stability can be removed with boon removal and corrupt. Corrupting is an especially painful counter because it gets converted to fear, which would break the overload. Either way it's very easy to counter a 4 second cast so something needs to be done imo, unless of course Anet is willing to give every other class such easily interrupted skills with big penalties if you get interrupted. Then it would be fine.

    Also, I find the notion that overloads need a damage buff rather dubious. It is true that staff tempest is way too underwhelming, but this is not the fault of the tempest specialization. Staff is the problem here because it has always had close to worthless damage outside of fire. Its saving grace was that the fire damage skills were insanely good, until they got nerfed which made them just good, so they no longer carry a weapon that is bad in every other attunement. Other weapon sets can cope with the 5 sec delay on overloads because they have some decent skills they can use in air before overloading. Staff basically has nothing, especially in PvE. You have a mediocre air auto and lightning surge which is kind of okay. That's basically it. You cannot even use static field as a proper CC to break a breakbar for PvE bosses most of the time. Not even going to talk about water and earth because it's even worse in those attunements.

    First in Wvw I go with the trait which makes soft cc go away. Staff is maybe weak but the difference between Staff Weaver and Staff Tempest is through their mechanics for Tempest is their Overlodas . Air Overload got buffed recently so it they won't do it again soon . But I did look in the history of both overloads now . But I also see Air overload got nerfed again and again over the time (-7%,-10%,-18%). Fire is just the alternative . And I do say Staff needs a buff but I also see they won't let it past the other builds. meaning Swordwaever and the new Tempest built.

    Staff weaver in WvW is a design fluke. It just so happens that the dual attunement mechanic enables you to access skills from other attunements while still having access to some fire skills. You also only need to wait for 4 seconds before reattuning to fire instead of 10, which is yet another reason why you don't ruin your damage on staff weaver when you swap attunements to use CC or other utility. The dual skills themselves are simply the cherry on the top which help you deal a bit of extra damage along with the modifiers.

    Basically weaver is one of the few possible elite spec concepts that can work with staff in any way with its current implementation. If staff remains the way it is right now, I believe that it is incredibly likely that the next elite spec will not work with it at all, much like tempest. Only way I could see it work is if it's a gimmick like choosing to focus on 2 attunements and getting a weapon swap. Also keep in mind that buffing overloads buffs all the weapons that tempest can use. If you want staff to be better, you just buff staff.

  • Lord of the Fire.6870Lord of the Fire.6870 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 10, 2019

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

    @alain.1659 said:
    All that tempest needs is a proper stability while overloading. It will solve all my issues.

    Yes and no this with the stability I already suggest a longer time ago my suggestion was that every second pulse of the overload we get an extra stabi with the same duration as the original. The problem is we already have a trait which makes soft cc useless against us also overload is a stunbreak . hmm maybe if we make it part of the other option in the trait meaning a part of the last top trait so you have to choose either. But maybe it good how I thought because with the stabi I have mostly fire overload in mind

    The No is for PvE Staff Tempest is too underwhelming (max 22k) dps the fire overload needs 20% more DPS(should be okay for wvw and Pvp small aoe cycle) and Lava Font needs 2 more pulses = 28k roughly. In theory you are with 30k acceptable for PvE content . So if it is still too low skills 1&2 on air needs a tiny bit of more dmg then( 5% on both or so).

    The best would be when Air Overload would target 5 instead of 3 but they won't do it at least not with a nerf . Reason from my side for this would be just loot.

    More stability would probably not break the game even with tempest's ability to trait anti-soft cc options. First of all, lucid singularity is almost never taken currently. Secondly and most importantly, stability can be removed with boon removal and corrupt. Corrupting is an especially painful counter because it gets converted to fear, which would break the overload. Either way it's very easy to counter a 4 second cast so something needs to be done imo, unless of course Anet is willing to give every other class such easily interrupted skills with big penalties if you get interrupted. Then it would be fine.

    Also, I find the notion that overloads need a damage buff rather dubious. It is true that staff tempest is way too underwhelming, but this is not the fault of the tempest specialization. Staff is the problem here because it has always had close to worthless damage outside of fire. Its saving grace was that the fire damage skills were insanely good, until they got nerfed which made them just good, so they no longer carry a weapon that is bad in every other attunement. Other weapon sets can cope with the 5 sec delay on overloads because they have some decent skills they can use in air before overloading. Staff basically has nothing, especially in PvE. You have a mediocre air auto and lightning surge which is kind of okay. That's basically it. You cannot even use static field as a proper CC to break a breakbar for PvE bosses most of the time. Not even going to talk about water and earth because it's even worse in those attunements.

    First in Wvw I go with the trait which makes soft cc go away. Staff is maybe weak but the difference between Staff Weaver and Staff Tempest is through their mechanics for Tempest is their Overlodas . Air Overload got buffed recently so it they won't do it again soon . But I did look in the history of both overloads now . But I also see Air overload got nerfed again and again over the time (-7%,-10%,-18%). Fire is just the alternative . And I do say Staff needs a buff but I also see they won't let it past the other builds. meaning Swordwaever and the new Tempest built.

    Staff weaver in WvW is a design fluke. It just so happens that the dual attunement mechanic enables you to access skills from other attunements while still having access to some fire skills. You also only need to wait for 4 seconds before reattuning to fire instead of 10, which is yet another reason why you don't ruin your damage on staff weaver when you swap attunements to use CC or other utility. The dual skills themselves are simply the cherry on the top which help you deal a bit of extra damage along with the modifiers.

    Basically weaver is one of the few possible elite spec concepts that can work with staff in any way with its current implementation. If staff remains the way it is right now, I believe that it is incredibly likely that the next elite spec will not work with it at all, much like tempest. Only way I could see it work is if it's a gimmick like choosing to focus on 2 attunements and getting a weapon swap. Also keep in mind that buffing overloads buffs all the weapons that tempest can use. If you want staff to be better, you just buff staff.

    I know the reason is staff core is just weak Weaver can still make much out of it . In the end they need to rebalance it or it won't work in the future . Buffing overloads doesn't mean all built get buffed the current Tempest built doesn't use Fire Overload but it is true everything must be in its limits or the builts change and swap to Fire Overload the best is really to spread the damge out of many skills as possible meaning Tempest + Staff . Weaver on the other hand doesn't use skill 1&2 on air they can be buffed to some degree with

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭

    Unravel is strong, sword and staff skills #3 are useless compared to dual skills, that why no one use this skill with theses weapons.
    Otherwise it has many uses. Like d/d to cast #3 air or fire for power bonus while casting earth 5, or chain leaps, or fast swap to water for healing/cleansing; for Elements of Rage buff... etc.
    No; the real useless skills are the aquatic stance, and in some regards the stone resonance.

  • ROMANG.1903ROMANG.1903 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 11, 2019

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    Unravel is strong, sword and staff skills #3 are useless compared to dual skills, that why no one use this skill with theses weapons.
    Otherwise it has many uses. Like d/d to cast #3 air or fire for power bonus while casting earth 5, or chain leaps, or fast swap to water for healing/cleansing; for Elements of Rage buff... etc.
    No; the real useless skills are the aquatic stance, and in some regards the stone resonance.

    The only issue I have with Unravel is that it is a stance. You are in dual attunement, then you use it. You become fully attuned. Then you can swap again right away, which will also fully attune you. But then at the moment where your attunement cooldown is avalaible again, given Unravel's duration of 5 seconds, you can never be really sure wether or not that skill is still up. This is clunky, it messes with the rotation.

    I'd rather have it so that Unravel fully atunes us to our primary atunement, or if we are already fully attuned, reset our attunement cooldown and make the next swap (and only the next one) fully attune us. No lingering effect, just a single-use thing. Perhaps add a charge in compensation?
    That would feel so much better and I might actually use the skill then. But the way it currently works is just too messy...

  • LazySummer.2568LazySummer.2568 Member ✭✭✭

    unravel is trash regardless of weapon. what's actually good is weave self's attunement cdr. if only unravel is some kind of mini weave self cdr, maybe 6s and without the stat bonuses from weave self, then it'll actually be worth taking over other utilities

  • Gamble.4580Gamble.4580 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 12, 2019

    No delay on ol would make it to op! Instant static instant big heal cleanse like wattt with a low cd. No ty please keep counter play. If u want ele meta for support u need to let ele give out stab

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