low effort suggestion to help increase player activity in raids — Guild Wars 2 Forums

low effort suggestion to help increase player activity in raids

successfully complete a challenge mote, get a new title for that boss. i like to play these CMs, but most don't because there is no reward.

title reward is a good compromise if we cannot have extra loot.

additionally, hoping you guys can make another difficult raid boss similar to dhuum cm difficulty. w7 cms were too easy.

maybe even add cms to other bosses?

at the end of the day, we want harder content, please.

i generally only play raids, and the community seems to be getting smaller and smaller. i'm starting to look elsewhere for raids. maybe ff14?

<1

Comments

  • Xar.6279Xar.6279 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 12, 2019

    You don't have to reinvent the wheel...
    It's commonly known how to increase raiding scene in your game. You just have to:

    • release new wings (Pretty fast, but not too fast. And regularly. To make raiders feels safe and let them plan when they'll progress)

    • have a good long-term reward system (which won't get bored after few wings)

    Gw2 failed in both aspects. In the current situation it is probably impossible for raiding scene to reborn tbh. Because too many people which loves to raid already quit. And it will be very difficult to make them come back, because many of them feel cheated. They came here to raid. They took their time to learn the game. And they received 2/3/4 bosses per year.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The easiest way to increase player activity in Raids is to wait until summer is over. Summer means less activity in games.
    Second way is to make sure the next Raid Wings have actually good rewards to get and not some worthless trinket.
    If they make Gen3 Legendary Weapons available as next Raid rewards, it would be great and you'll see a lot more activity. Obviously they'd need to be staggered and released over a long period of time (like all legendary weapons) but you'd be able to make a few precursors.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Raids just needs better rewards such as something else worth grinding for and more monetary rewards like fractals have.

    It also needs more frequent content releases than the ~9 month cadence along with it being, or at least having the option to be, more difficult. Doing the CM’s should also be more rewarding rather than a one-time thing for AP and titles.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭

    As long as raids are not fun for the general public they will keep declining.
    Adding harder CMs / more rewards will do nothing, if the content itself isn't fun for a higher percentage of players. You're just going to narrow down the already small raid playerbase.

    Barely anyone does CM's because they are fun, they do them once for rewards and that's it. Doing content based on rewards instead of fun is already a failure in design, people will just see it as a chore instead of a game.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    As long as raids are not fun for the general public they will keep declining.
    Adding harder CMs / more rewards will do nothing, if the content itself isn't fun for a higher percentage of players. You're just going to narrow down the already small raid playerbase.

    Barely anyone does CM's because they are fun, they do them once for rewards and that's it. Doing content based on rewards instead of fun is already a failure in design, people will just see it as a chore instead of a game.

    Pretty much this. its gotten to the point im considering paying for raid runs just to finish my armor off, as the raid group i had quit due to them being "to easy" however..they arent easy enough to pull in the regular players.

    Amana Silentchild; My Main
    Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
    Why GW is Called Guildwars

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Adding harder CMs / more rewards will do nothing,

    Then explain why the Heart of Thorns wings are so much more popular. It can't be difficulty because Wings 6 and 7 are rather easy, even compared to 1,2,3.
    Adding more rewards to existing raids won't do them any good. But it's good to consider better rewards for the future.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Adding harder CMs / more rewards will do nothing,

    Then explain why the Heart of Thorns wings are so much more popular. It can't be difficulty because Wings 6 and 7 are rather easy, even compared to 1,2,3.
    Adding more rewards to existing raids won't do them any good. But it's good to consider better rewards for the future.

    Speaking from my experience: Players are more familiar with the HoT wings because they came first. There was an initial curiosity about raids that declined after every raid release. I guess people are scared/can't be bothered to learn new mechanics each time a new wing comes out. They just do the raids they are familiar with. (My opinion)

    I did not use the word easy on purpose, because raid-content itself isn't really hard. But the raids also aren't fun for the majority.
    (For better undestanding what i mean: Raid-content: bosses and the events / raids: everything from finding a squad to completing the raid)

    Rewards can be a driving force to do content, but i'd rather do content because it is fun. (Of course rewards are part of "fun", but it shouldn't replace "fun")
    That is why i think that better rewards will only be a short term solution, players will flock to the new raids, but then leave them again once they percieve them as chores.
    I'm not saying that i'm against better rewards (even though it looks like that in my initial quote), but that only adding better rewards, while not making raids more fun will not change the situation.

    [That said, this is only my personal opinion, i could be wrong about everything here. WvW at its initial release had this problem in reverse: the gameplay was fun, but the rewards weren't there. Nowadays it still has lacking rewards and the gameplay got worse due to neglect and powercreep]

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 12, 2019

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Adding harder CMs / more rewards will do nothing,

    Then explain why the Heart of Thorns wings are so much more popular.

    Apart from w4 that is popular due to being the easiest, the popularity of others is due to them being the first wings (they got caught in the initial hype at first, and now people are just used to them already), and the legendary armor. New wings are unpopular because ring just isn't as good as armor, but also because when they released, raid popularity has already started to wane. There were only few new raiders, and many of the old ones weren't interested anymore. So yeah, rewards do matter, even if they are not the only factor. CMs... not so much.

    Remember, though, that the popularity of w5 was the lowest even when it still offered LIs instead of LDs. Higher difficulty made players less interested in it, not more.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 12, 2019

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    As long as raids are not fun for the general public they will keep declining.
    Adding harder CMs / more rewards will do nothing, if the content itself isn't fun for a higher percentage of players. You're just going to narrow down the already small raid playerbase.

    Barely anyone does CM's because they are fun, they do them once for rewards and that's it. Doing content based on rewards instead of fun is already a failure in design, people will just see it as a chore instead of a game.

    Dungeons are fun for many players. Why don’t they do them?

    What caused the large increase of players to do world bosses for a couple weeks over the past couple months?

    Maybe they aren't as much fun as you think for many players. I don't have a lot of fun dpsing down a boss before he can do a mechanic / skipping all of his phases through sheer damage.

    for your second question, i'm going to quote myself:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    That is why i think that better rewards will only be a short term solution, players will flock to the new raids, but then leave them again once they percieve them as chores.
    I'm not saying that i'm against better rewards (even though it looks like that in my initial quote), but that only adding better rewards, while not making raids more fun will not change the situation.

    Increased rewards do increase playrates for a short term, but it falls off.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Many people enjoyed the LS maps when they came out. How many still do them now? Why the change?

    Assume that you have a map that was not fun but very rewarding and a map that was very fun but not rewarding. Which would players prefer if they only had those two options.

    Rewards are the primary means to keep players doing content. A lot of people don’t like map completion but it’s required to get Legendaries (if not buying them). A lot of players don’t like doing WvW but it’s necessary for the Gift of Battle.

    LS map content is often doing the same thing over and over again, becomes a chore.

    They would hard grind the rewarding map if they have something they want to buy, else they will be on the fun map.

    I vehemently disagree, fun is what keeps players doing content. Many people don't even go for legendaries. A lot of players like playing WvW even though they get bad rewards.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    As long as raids are not fun for the general public they will keep declining.
    Adding harder CMs / more rewards will do nothing, if the content itself isn't fun for a higher percentage of players. You're just going to narrow down the already small raid playerbase.

    Barely anyone does CM's because they are fun, they do them once for rewards and that's it. Doing content based on rewards instead of fun is already a failure in design, people will just see it as a chore instead of a game.

    Dungeons are fun for many players. Why don’t they do them?

    What caused the large increase of players to do world bosses for a couple weeks over the past couple months?

    Maybe they aren't as much fun as you think for many players. I don't have a lot of fun dpsing down a boss before he can do a mechanic / skipping all of his phases through sheer damage.

    Dungeon bosses didn’t really have mechanics. Even if they did, the same reason you gave in regards to DPS can be applied anywhere else in the game.

    for your second question, i'm going to quote myself:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    That is why i think that better rewards will only be a short term solution, players will flock to the new raids, but then leave them again once they percieve them as chores.
    I'm not saying that i'm against better rewards (even though it looks like that in my initial quote), but that only adding better rewards, while not making raids more fun will not change the situation.

    Increased rewards do increase playrates for a short term, but it falls off.

    As I stated in a previous post, that’s because there aren’t any long term rewards or monetary reward like in fractals. The primary reason players don’t do LS maps is because they’ve obtained everything. One particular LS3 map stayed popular for a very long time because of the ease to farm map currency for ascended trinkets.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Many people enjoyed the LS maps when they came out. How many still do them now? Why the change?

    LS map content is often doing the same thing over and over again, becomes a chore.

    The same can be stated about everything else in this game.

    Assume that you have a map that was not fun but very rewarding and a map that was very fun but not rewarding. Which would players prefer if they only had those two options.

    They would hard grind the rewarding map if they have something they want to buy, else they will be on the fun map.

    Name a map that players do strictly for fun over and over and not for the rewards.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    As long as raids are not fun for the general public they will keep declining.
    Adding harder CMs / more rewards will do nothing, if the content itself isn't fun for a higher percentage of players. You're just going to narrow down the already small raid playerbase.

    Barely anyone does CM's because they are fun, they do them once for rewards and that's it. Doing content based on rewards instead of fun is already a failure in design, people will just see it as a chore instead of a game.

    Dungeons are fun for many players. Why don’t they do them?

    What caused the large increase of players to do world bosses for a couple weeks over the past couple months?

    Maybe they aren't as much fun as you think for many players. I don't have a lot of fun dpsing down a boss before he can do a mechanic / skipping all of his phases through sheer damage.

    Dungeon bosses didn’t really have mechanics. Even if they did, the same reason you gave in regards to DPS can be applied anywhere else in the game.

    So if it can be applied anywhere else, why go out of my way to go to dungeons to have fun? I can do that everywhere else.

    for your second question, i'm going to quote myself:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    That is why i think that better rewards will only be a short term solution, players will flock to the new raids, but then leave them again once they percieve them as chores.
    I'm not saying that i'm against better rewards (even though it looks like that in my initial quote), but that only adding better rewards, while not making raids more fun will not change the situation.

    Increased rewards do increase playrates for a short term, but it falls off.

    As I stated in a previous post, that’s because there aren’t any long term rewards or monetary reward like in fractals. The primary reason players don’t do LS maps is because they’ve obtained everything. One particular LS3 map stayed popular for a very long time because of the ease to farm map currency for ascended trinkets.

    Then why bring up the short-term reward event for world bosses at all? Many people don't even have completed the meta-achievements and have quit the LS maps, they still have plenty to do, but it isn't fun.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Many people enjoyed the LS maps when they came out. How many still do them now? Why the change?

    LS map content is often doing the same thing over and over again, becomes a chore.

    The same can be stated about everything else in this game.

    Exactly, why go out of my way to go anywhere else, if i can already do it where i have the most fun. That's why most people just stay in the open world.

    Assume that you have a map that was not fun but very rewarding and a map that was very fun but not rewarding. Which would players prefer if they only had those two options.

    They would hard grind the rewarding map if they have something they want to buy, else they will be on the fun map.

    Name a map that players do strictly for fun over and over and not for the rewards.

    Why are you seeing this so black and white? Rewards are part of the fun, but shouldn't replace fun.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Adding harder CMs / more rewards will do nothing,

    Then explain why the Heart of Thorns wings are so much more popular.

    Apart from w4 that is popular due to being the easiest, the popularity of others is due to them being the first wings (they got caught in the initial hype at first, and now people are just used to them already), and the legendary armor. New wings are unpopular because ring just isn't as good as armor, but also because when they released, raid popularity has already started to wane. There were only few new raiders, and many of the old ones weren't interested anymore. So yeah, rewards do matter, even if they are not the only factor. CMs... not so much.

    Remember, though, that the popularity of w5 was the lowest even when it still offered LIs instead of LDs. Higher difficulty made players less interested in it, not more.

    I agree that rewards are way more important than CMs. Better rewards increase Raid popularity, CMs keep current Raiders busy for a bit longer.
    But even more important than rewards I think it's the popularity of the game as a whole as those joining -just for raids- shouldn't be any kind of high number. Maybe they'll stay and enjoy Raids more than anything else, but I can't imagine anyone reading about Guild Wars 2 and saying "I'll play this game because it has the best Raids". Arenanet should put some serious effort in bringing new players in.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 12, 2019

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    As long as raids are not fun for the general public they will keep declining.
    Adding harder CMs / more rewards will do nothing, if the content itself isn't fun for a higher percentage of players. You're just going to narrow down the already small raid playerbase.

    Barely anyone does CM's because they are fun, they do them once for rewards and that's it. Doing content based on rewards instead of fun is already a failure in design, people will just see it as a chore instead of a game.

    Dungeons are fun for many players. Why don’t they do them?

    What caused the large increase of players to do world bosses for a couple weeks over the past couple months?

    Maybe they aren't as much fun as you think for many players. I don't have a lot of fun dpsing down a boss before he can do a mechanic / skipping all of his phases through sheer damage.

    Dungeon bosses didn’t really have mechanics. Even if they did, the same reason you gave in regards to DPS can be applied anywhere else in the game.

    So if it can be applied anywhere else, why go out of my way to go to dungeons to have fun? I can do that everywhere else.

    Then you’re one of the few players that do not play for rewards.

    for your second question, i'm going to quote myself:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    That is why i think that better rewards will only be a short term solution, players will flock to the new raids, but then leave them again once they percieve them as chores.
    I'm not saying that i'm against better rewards (even though it looks like that in my initial quote), but that only adding better rewards, while not making raids more fun will not change the situation.

    Increased rewards do increase playrates for a short term, but it falls off.

    As I stated in a previous post, that’s because there aren’t any long term rewards or monetary reward like in fractals. The primary reason players don’t do LS maps is because they’ve obtained everything. One particular LS3 map stayed popular for a very long time because of the ease to farm map currency for ascended trinkets.

    Then why bring up the short-term reward event for world bosses at all? Many people don't even have completed the meta-achievements and have quit the LS maps, they still have plenty to do, but it isn't fun.

    To show that there’s a very strong correlation and causation to players doing content and rewards. If you want a more long term example, look at how HoT and PoF metas would be without the amalgamated gemstone.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Many people enjoyed the LS maps when they came out. How many still do them now? Why the change?

    LS map content is often doing the same thing over and over again, becomes a chore.

    The same can be stated about everything else in this game.

    Exactly, why go out of my way to go anywhere else, if i can already do it where i have the most fun. That's why most people just stay in the open world.

    Then they can stay in the open world? It’s impossible to make all content in the game appeal to all players. Certainly WvW doesn’t appeal to everyone and neither does raids. Each were designed for a specific purpose

    Assume that you have a map that was not fun but very rewarding and a map that was very fun but not rewarding. Which would players prefer if they only had those two options.

    They would hard grind the rewarding map if they have something they want to buy, else they will be on the fun map.

    Name a map that players do strictly for fun over and over and not for the rewards.

    Why are you seeing this so black and white? Rewards are part of the fun, but shouldn't replace fun.

    Why can’t you answer the question?

    The point I have been making is that rewards is a bigger driver in getting players to do content than it being fun. I used the two extremes to show this as out of the two, one would always be preferred.

    You are also ignoring that many find challenging content to be quite enjoyable over the brain dead auto attack spamming of open world. Raids were designed and intended for those that wanted challenging content. If you don’t find them fun because of the challenge then obviously they were not intended for you.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 12, 2019

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    As long as raids are not fun for the general public they will keep declining.
    Adding harder CMs / more rewards will do nothing, if the content itself isn't fun for a higher percentage of players. You're just going to narrow down the already small raid playerbase.

    Barely anyone does CM's because they are fun, they do them once for rewards and that's it. Doing content based on rewards instead of fun is already a failure in design, people will just see it as a chore instead of a game.

    Dungeons are fun for many players. Why don’t they do them?

    What caused the large increase of players to do world bosses for a couple weeks over the past couple months?

    Maybe they aren't as much fun as you think for many players. I don't have a lot of fun dpsing down a boss before he can do a mechanic / skipping all of his phases through sheer damage.

    Dungeon bosses didn’t really have mechanics. Even if they did, the same reason you gave in regards to DPS can be applied anywhere else in the game.

    So if it can be applied anywhere else, why go out of my way to go to dungeons to have fun? I can do that everywhere else.

    Then you’re one of the few players that do not play for rewards.

    I don't think i'm in the minority here. I don't think most people play games just to get rewards. They play because gaming is fun.

    for your second question, i'm going to quote myself:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    That is why i think that better rewards will only be a short term solution, players will flock to the new raids, but then leave them again once they percieve them as chores.
    I'm not saying that i'm against better rewards (even though it looks like that in my initial quote), but that only adding better rewards, while not making raids more fun will not change the situation.

    Increased rewards do increase playrates for a short term, but it falls off.

    As I stated in a previous post, that’s because there aren’t any long term rewards or monetary reward like in fractals. The primary reason players don’t do LS maps is because they’ve obtained everything. One particular LS3 map stayed popular for a very long time because of the ease to farm map currency for ascended trinkets.

    Then why bring up the short-term reward event for world bosses at all? Many people don't even have completed the meta-achievements and have quit the LS maps, they still have plenty to do, but it isn't fun.

    To show that there’s a very strong correlation and causation to players doing content and rewards. If you want a more long term example, look at how HoT and PoF metas would be without the amalgamated gemstone.

    There are no amalgamated gemstones in WvW, yet people still play that. The rewards are worse there, yet they still play WvW.
    What about all the players that do the World Bosses on core Tyria? There's still plenty of them, even though it is barely rewarding.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Many people enjoyed the LS maps when they came out. How many still do them now? Why the change?

    LS map content is often doing the same thing over and over again, becomes a chore.

    The same can be stated about everything else in this game.

    Exactly, why go out of my way to go anywhere else, if i can already do it where i have the most fun. That's why most people just stay in the open world.

    Then they can stay in the open world? It’s impossible to make all content in the game appeal to all players. Certainly WvW doesn’t appeal to everyone and neither does raids. Each were designed for a specific purpose

    Yeah, and adding more rewards to raids will not change that appeal. Raids will get a short time boost, then start to decline pretty fast again.

    Assume that you have a map that was not fun but very rewarding and a map that was very fun but not rewarding. Which would players prefer if they only had those two options.

    They would hard grind the rewarding map if they have something they want to buy, else they will be on the fun map.

    Name a map that players do strictly for fun over and over and not for the rewards.

    Why are you seeing this so black and white? Rewards are part of the fun, but shouldn't replace fun.

    Why can’t you answer the question?

    Because the question is simply stupid. I answered it by saying that there isn't any activity that is only rewards, and there isn't any activity that is only fun. Some people have fun by simply playing the auction house.

    Edit because you edited again:

    The point I have been making is that rewards is a bigger driver in getting players to do content than it being fun. I used the two extremes to show this as out of the two, one would always be preferred.

    You are also ignoring that many find challenging content to be quite enjoyable over the brain dead auto attack spamming of open world. Raids were designed and intended for those that wanted challenging content. If you don’t find them fun because of the challenge then obviously they were not intended for you.

    Yeah, no. Rewards are a short time drive. Fun is long time. And we want raids to survive and thrive.
    I'm not ignoring the fact that many find challenging content to be enjoyable, this thread was about increasing player activity. I don't find raids challenging, they are quite easy, i stated that before. But i guess you can't see the bigger picture.
    You think that i correlate fun to easier content, and as i already said, that is not the case.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    As long as raids are not fun for the general public they will keep declining.
    Adding harder CMs / more rewards will do nothing, if the content itself isn't fun for a higher percentage of players. You're just going to narrow down the already small raid playerbase.

    Barely anyone does CM's because they are fun, they do them once for rewards and that's it. Doing content based on rewards instead of fun is already a failure in design, people will just see it as a chore instead of a game.

    Dungeons are fun for many players. Why don’t they do them?

    What caused the large increase of players to do world bosses for a couple weeks over the past couple months?

    Maybe they aren't as much fun as you think for many players. I don't have a lot of fun dpsing down a boss before he can do a mechanic / skipping all of his phases through sheer damage.

    Dungeon bosses didn’t really have mechanics. Even if they did, the same reason you gave in regards to DPS can be applied anywhere else in the game.

    So if it can be applied anywhere else, why go out of my way to go to dungeons to have fun? I can do that everywhere else.

    Then you’re one of the few players that do not play for rewards.

    I don't think i'm in the minority here. I don't think most people play games just to get rewards. They play because gaming is fun.

    They ideally would want both but if given a choice of one or the other, they’d go for rewards. This has shown to be evident throughout the game over the past seven years.

    for your second question, i'm going to quote myself:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    That is why i think that better rewards will only be a short term solution, players will flock to the new raids, but then leave them again once they percieve them as chores.
    I'm not saying that i'm against better rewards (even though it looks like that in my initial quote), but that only adding better rewards, while not making raids more fun will not change the situation.

    Increased rewards do increase playrates for a short term, but it falls off.

    As I stated in a previous post, that’s because there aren’t any long term rewards or monetary reward like in fractals. The primary reason players don’t do LS maps is because they’ve obtained everything. One particular LS3 map stayed popular for a very long time because of the ease to farm map currency for ascended trinkets.

    Then why bring up the short-term reward event for world bosses at all? Many people don't even have completed the meta-achievements and have quit the LS maps, they still have plenty to do, but it isn't fun.

    To show that there’s a very strong correlation and causation to players doing content and rewards. If you want a more long term example, look at how HoT and PoF metas would be without the amalgamated gemstone.

    There are no amalgamated gemstones in WvW, yet people still play that. The rewards are worse there, yet they still play WvW.
    What about all the players that do the World Bosses on core Tyria? There's still plenty of them, even though it is barely rewarding.

    Skirmish rewards bring in PvE players. WvW would be an exception just as players who playing other online PvP games do it to compete over other players. PvE players have always wanted to be rewarded and their lack of participating in large numbers towards content with few rewards is evident. Not many do LS4 metas and players certainly abandoned Istan quickly when the rewards got nerfed.

    World bosses are content that you actively do for like two minutes and then AFK for another thirteen minutes until the next. This isn’t the direction you’d want the game to go. Trust me.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Many people enjoyed the LS maps when they came out. How many still do them now? Why the change?

    LS map content is often doing the same thing over and over again, becomes a chore.

    The same can be stated about everything else in this game.

    Exactly, why go out of my way to go anywhere else, if i can already do it where i have the most fun. That's why most people just stay in the open world.

    Then they can stay in the open world? It’s impossible to make all content in the game appeal to all players. Certainly WvW doesn’t appeal to everyone and neither does raids. Each were designed for a specific purpose

    Yeah, and adding more rewards to raids will not change that appeal. Raids will get a short time boost, then start to decline pretty fast again.

    Depends on the rewards and whether the monetary reward like fractals have are added. At the moment raids have become something you do once a week. If the boss chests had a daily reward tied to them, chances are you’d see more players doing raid bosses through the week.

    Assume that you have a map that was not fun but very rewarding and a map that was very fun but not rewarding. Which would players prefer if they only had those two options.

    They would hard grind the rewarding map if they have something they want to buy, else they will be on the fun map.

    Name a map that players do strictly for fun over and over and not for the rewards.

    Why are you seeing this so black and white? Rewards are part of the fun, but shouldn't replace fun.

    Why can’t you answer the question?

    Because the question is simply stupid. I answered it by saying that there isn't any activity that is only rewards, and there isn't any activity that is only fun. Some people have fun by simply playing the auction house.

    And you were missing the point that I was making which I elaborated in an edit as you were making this post.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 12, 2019

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    As long as raids are not fun for the general public they will keep declining.
    Adding harder CMs / more rewards will do nothing, if the content itself isn't fun for a higher percentage of players. You're just going to narrow down the already small raid playerbase.

    Barely anyone does CM's because they are fun, they do them once for rewards and that's it. Doing content based on rewards instead of fun is already a failure in design, people will just see it as a chore instead of a game.

    Dungeons are fun for many players. Why don’t they do them?

    What caused the large increase of players to do world bosses for a couple weeks over the past couple months?

    Maybe they aren't as much fun as you think for many players. I don't have a lot of fun dpsing down a boss before he can do a mechanic / skipping all of his phases through sheer damage.

    Dungeon bosses didn’t really have mechanics. Even if they did, the same reason you gave in regards to DPS can be applied anywhere else in the game.

    So if it can be applied anywhere else, why go out of my way to go to dungeons to have fun? I can do that everywhere else.

    Then you’re one of the few players that do not play for rewards.

    I don't think i'm in the minority here. I don't think most people play games just to get rewards. They play because gaming is fun.

    They ideally would want both but if given a choice of one or the other, they’d go for rewards. This has shown to be evident throughout the game over the past seven years.

    Obviously not, as shown throughout the game, people still play for fun. And they will always prefer fun. It's obvious we have different prespectives on this, and this discussion will continue to be one side on the side of rewards, the other on the side of fun.

    for your second question, i'm going to quote myself:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    That is why i think that better rewards will only be a short term solution, players will flock to the new raids, but then leave them again once they percieve them as chores.
    I'm not saying that i'm against better rewards (even though it looks like that in my initial quote), but that only adding better rewards, while not making raids more fun will not change the situation.

    Increased rewards do increase playrates for a short term, but it falls off.

    As I stated in a previous post, that’s because there aren’t any long term rewards or monetary reward like in fractals. The primary reason players don’t do LS maps is because they’ve obtained everything. One particular LS3 map stayed popular for a very long time because of the ease to farm map currency for ascended trinkets.

    Then why bring up the short-term reward event for world bosses at all? Many people don't even have completed the meta-achievements and have quit the LS maps, they still have plenty to do, but it isn't fun.

    To show that there’s a very strong correlation and causation to players doing content and rewards. If you want a more long term example, look at how HoT and PoF metas would be without the amalgamated gemstone.

    There are no amalgamated gemstones in WvW, yet people still play that. The rewards are worse there, yet they still play WvW.
    What about all the players that do the World Bosses on core Tyria? There's still plenty of them, even though it is barely rewarding.

    Skirmish rewards bring in PvE players. WvW would be an exception just as players who playing other online PvP games do it to compete over other players. PvE players have always wanted to be rewarded and their lack of participating in large numbers towards content with few rewards is evident. Not many do LS4 metas and players certainly abandoned Istan quickly when the rewards got nerfed.

    Yeah, but you don't want PvE players in WvW, you want players that want to play WvW. They play it for fun, not for the rewards. Obviously the players don't do the maps because they aren't fun. The Istan-map farmers weren't even a huge part of the community, just those wanting to build legendaries / buying something fast. If rewards was all the players wanted, they would just "farm" in real life and convert it to gold ingame.

    World bosses are content that you actively do for like two minutes and then AFK for another thirteen minutes until the next. This isn’t the direction you’d want the game to go. Trust me.

    You do that, if everyone would do that, the World boss would never complete. So not everyone is afk. Guess some people do really play the game.
    (Edit: I think i've missunderstood what you said, I've originally understood you saying that you're afk during the boss, then active for 2 minutes to get the rewards, while the others do the work.
    I appreciate World Bosses like Tequatl / Triple Trouble / Chak Gerent that take longer)

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Many people enjoyed the LS maps when they came out. How many still do them now? Why the change?

    LS map content is often doing the same thing over and over again, becomes a chore.

    The same can be stated about everything else in this game.

    Exactly, why go out of my way to go anywhere else, if i can already do it where i have the most fun. That's why most people just stay in the open world.

    Then they can stay in the open world? It’s impossible to make all content in the game appeal to all players. Certainly WvW doesn’t appeal to everyone and neither does raids. Each were designed for a specific purpose

    Yeah, and adding more rewards to raids will not change that appeal. Raids will get a short time boost, then start to decline pretty fast again.

    Depends on the rewards and whether the monetary reward like fractals have are added. At the moment raids have become something you do once a week. If the boss chests had a daily reward tied to them, chances are you’d see more players doing raid bosses through the week.

    I'll stick with my opinion that rewards will not let raids survive / increase the player activity longterm, making them daily will probably even kill them faster.

    Assume that you have a map that was not fun but very rewarding and a map that was very fun but not rewarding. Which would players prefer if they only had those two options.

    They would hard grind the rewarding map if they have something they want to buy, else they will be on the fun map.

    Name a map that players do strictly for fun over and over and not for the rewards.

    Why are you seeing this so black and white? Rewards are part of the fun, but shouldn't replace fun.

    Why can’t you answer the question?

    Because the question is simply stupid. I answered it by saying that there isn't any activity that is only rewards, and there isn't any activity that is only fun. Some people have fun by simply playing the auction house.

    And you were missing the point that I was making which I elaborated in an edit as you were making this post.

    Same goes for you :)

    I really don't think our discussion will be any more helpful to this thread, we're just discussing things over and over again, using the same arguments without stats. It's obvious no one can change the others' opinion about the rewards/fun-thing and what is more important for the players. I'll just call it quits here. Feel free to answer again, but i really don't see a point in continuing this. (Won't answer again, since i think we're just wasting our time here)

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Glider.5792 said:
    If you want to increase activity, you need to make raids easier, NOT harder.

    I assume that mean the raiding scene grew with wing 6? If the scene is to grow they need to make raids both easier and harder, make nm a couple wipes kind of deal and make the cms something that will take 2 or 3 days to clear on release.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Xar.6279 said:
    You don't have to reinvent the wheel...
    It's commonly known how to increase raiding scene in your game. You just have to:

    • release new wings (Pretty fast, but not too fast. And regularly. To make raiders feels safe and let them plan when they'll progress)

    • have a good long-term reward system (which won't get bored after few wings)

    Gw2 failed in both aspects. In the current situation it is probably impossible for raiding scene to reborn tbh. Because too many people which loves to raid already quit. And it will be very difficult to make them come back, because many of them feel cheated. They came here to raid. They took their time to learn the game. And they received 2/3/4 bosses per year.

    Honestly wings 1 to 3 had some good rewards outside of legendary armor collection stuff, really nice weapon skins as well as the portal thingy. Matthias staff is still one of the best staves in game.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 12, 2019

    I think both rewards and fun factor are really importand and go and in hand. Dont forget, fun is subjective and it means something diff for every group of the gw2 community. A bunch of ppl find fun collecting things, doing collections unlocking skins etc, others in just playing some light hearted easy contend and others in challenging themseles and becoming better. I'd say these are the main 3 groups of ppl in any mmo.

    Saying raids need to be fun is more improtand than raids need to be rewarding is silly imo. Both, equally imo introduce ppl into some piece of content and both to diff extends keep ppl playing and comming back for more depending on what they find fun.

    As mentioned in another thread players get burned out on doing the same thing over and over even if they found it fun and even if its rewarding. Thats where the cadence of release really comes into play, if raids come out relatively fast ppl can be more accepting of a raid that wasnt as fun for the or the rewards werent as good because they know that soon enough there will be a new one. If raids come out slowly and communication regarding them is scarce then why would ppl be accepting of an unsatisfactory release if theres uncertainty in the horizon.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Glider.5792 said:
    If you want to increase activity, you need to make raids easier, NOT harder.

    I assume that mean the raiding scene grew with wing 6? If the scene is to grow they need to make raids both easier and harder, make nm a couple wipes kind of deal and make the cms something that will take 2 or 3 days to clear on release.

    The problem is they are still to hard for the majority of players to try. I havent done it yet myself, but ive looked up videos and its mostly just doing the mechanics and not dying, but you do have to have a certain level of competence that is pretty lacking across this player base.

    Honestly: Raid difficulty levels seems likes a good idea(Heresy i know, please dont kill me), Easy, normal., Hard, Impossible(CM essentially). With the bosses dropping more loot depending on the level(You can still get all the rewards on easy, just takes quite a bit longer). Easy and Normal would be once a week for rewards as well, while Hard and Impossible could be ran more than once with diminishing returns per repeated trys.

    Amana Silentchild; My Main
    Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
    Why GW is Called Guildwars

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Glider.5792 said:
    If you want to increase activity, you need to make raids easier, NOT harder.

    I assume that mean the raiding scene grew with wing 6? If the scene is to grow they need to make raids both easier and harder, make nm a couple wipes kind of deal and make the cms something that will take 2 or 3 days to clear on release.

    The problem is they are still to hard for the majority of players to try. I havent done it yet myself, but ive looked up videos and its mostly just doing the mechanics and not dying, but you do have to have a certain level of competence that is pretty lacking across this player base.

    Honestly: Raid difficulty levels seems likes a good idea(Heresy i know, please dont kill me), Easy, normal., Hard, Impossible(CM essentially). With the bosses dropping more loot depending on the level(You can still get all the rewards on easy, just takes quite a bit longer). Easy and Normal would be once a week for rewards as well, while Hard and Impossible could be ran more than once with diminishing returns per repeated trys.

    Nah just 2, nm and cm make nm easier and cm harder. The more dificulties the more resources it will take. And i think the weekly deal they run now in is fine.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Glider.5792 said:
    If you want to increase activity, you need to make raids easier, NOT harder.

    I assume that mean the raiding scene grew with wing 6? If the scene is to grow they need to make raids both easier and harder, make nm a couple wipes kind of deal and make the cms something that will take 2 or 3 days to clear on release.

    The problem is they are still to hard for the majority of players to try. I havent done it yet myself, but ive looked up videos and its mostly just doing the mechanics and not dying, but you do have to have a certain level of competence that is pretty lacking across this player base.

    Honestly: Raid difficulty levels seems likes a good idea(Heresy i know, please dont kill me), Easy, normal., Hard, Impossible(CM essentially). With the bosses dropping more loot depending on the level(You can still get all the rewards on easy, just takes quite a bit longer). Easy and Normal would be once a week for rewards as well, while Hard and Impossible could be ran more than once with diminishing returns per repeated trys.

    Nah just 2, nm and cm make nm easier and cm harder. The more dificulties the more resources it will take. And i think the weekly deal they run now in is fine.

    That works too i suppose!

    Amana Silentchild; My Main
    Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
    Why GW is Called Guildwars

  • The current raid community cannout survive a difficulty option now. That option should had been put on the very first raids.

    If you put dificulty now, you will spread one already small part of the community into little bubbles that will burst sooner...

    The option is no longer viable...

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Condutas.3580 said:
    The current raid community cannout survive a difficulty option now. That option should had been put on the very first raids.

    If you put dificulty now, you will spread one already small part of the community into little bubbles that will burst sooner...

    The option is no longer viable...

    Actually it would still help i think,. Adding a mode that easy enough for the vast majority of GW2 players to get into raids would increase the numbers attempting raids, while the current raid community would not appreciate it, perhaps thats for the best and overall future health of the game. I dont know, im not ANET, and nobody here really knows either.

    Amana Silentchild; My Main
    Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
    Why GW is Called Guildwars

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I agree that rewards are way more important than CMs. Better rewards increase Raid popularity, CMs keep current Raiders busy for a bit longer.
    But even more important than rewards I think it's the popularity of the game as a whole as those joining -just for raids- shouldn't be any kind of high number. Maybe they'll stay and enjoy Raids more than anything else, but I can't imagine anyone reading about Guild Wars 2 and saying "I'll play this game because it has the best Raids". Arenanet should put some serious effort in bringing new players in.

    Fair point. Indeed, the bigger the game population, the bigger the pool every game mode can recruit from. And of course the bigger the game popularity, the more new players, not only for the game overall, but also for each of those modes. And GW2 doesn't seem to be growing at the moment.

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Glider.5792 said:
    If you want to increase activity, you need to make raids easier, NOT harder.

    I assume that mean the raiding scene grew with wing 6?

    No. It grew with wing 4, and decreased with 5. Wing 6, while easier than 5, was by no means easy. It also was too little too late - by that time interest in raids was already dropping.

    If the scene is to grow they need to make raids both easier and harder, make nm a couple wipes kind of deal and make the cms something that will take 2 or 3 days to clear on release.

    Precisely. Although i am afraid it might be too late for that.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Condutas.3580 said:
    The current raid community cannout survive a difficulty option now. That option should had been put on the very first raids.

    If you put dificulty now, you will spread one already small part of the community into little bubbles that will burst sooner...

    The option is no longer viable...

    The community can revitalise if it get good content in a consistend cadence. Similarly to how pvp can revitalise if they add a god kitten 2v2 q >:^(

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1763 said:
    Actually it would still help i think,. Adding a mode that easy enough for the vast majority of GW2 players to get into raids would increase the numbers attempting raids, while the current raid community would not appreciate it, perhaps thats for the best and overall future health of the game. I dont know, im not ANET, and nobody here really knows either.

    I'm not sure a mode that is "easy for the majority" will do anything to increase the population of actual Raids. And no I wouldn't call such a mode a "Raid" anymore, that's instanced open world. Just like similar Raid "modes" in other games they are never used to get more people to play the actual Raids. So not sure what the point would be in adding an instanced version of open world content.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭

    current raid is to hard fo me, I pref dungeons like ascalon, word b, fractals, collect achiv point, and near 30k.
    And But I have idea how to attract ppl to raid. Make it possible come as 25 or 50 ppl, and don't scale 10 raid boss

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2019

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Just like similar Raid "modes" in other games they are never used to get more people to play the actual Raids.

    True, the main point is to justify resources expenditure on normal raids. It's easier to spend resources on a content meant for majority of players (and get a higher difficulty mode meant for a small minority as a byproduct), than spend almost the same amount of resources just for that small minority. The first option is way more efficient resource-wise. And if it will cause a small percentage of players to graduate from one mode to another? That's an added bonus, not main goal.

    That's because raids in a game like gw2 to keep the minority they are aimed at engaged, require resources that are vastly disproportionate to the size of the raid community.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    the issue isn't that raids are too hard, it's that the shift from general pve content to raids is as smooth as batman's voice, not just because of the difficulty spike but also because it requires a shift in player mentality.

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2019

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:
    Actually it would still help i think,. Adding a mode that easy enough for the vast majority of GW2 players to get into raids would increase the numbers attempting raids, while the current raid community would not appreciate it, perhaps thats for the best and overall future health of the game. I dont know, im not ANET, and nobody here really knows either.

    I'm not sure a mode that is "easy for the majority" will do anything to increase the population of actual Raids. And no I wouldn't call such a mode a "Raid" anymore, that's instanced open world. Just like similar Raid "modes" in other games they are never used to get more people to play the actual Raids. So not sure what the point would be in adding an instanced version of open world content.

    Its just more ppl that get to see what the devs made even if it is an easier version. Raids have environments, unique enemies, loot, collections, lore, music etc. Thats stuff that you can experience and largely apreciate without having a hard or easy tag. If it gets more ppl to be interested in the game for longer and log in more often then why not?

    Also, i just see a diff value to isntanced content as oposed to ow content, for one i like the smaller, more controled scale of it which makes senae for the encounters. similarly i apreciate ow content for its massiveness which makes sense for these massive encounters (be it world bosses or metas). Besides, in my opinion a nm raid regardless how easy it gets should always be something that if a completely clueless group ventures in will wipe at for at least a couple of times. Thats not really the experience you get from ow.

    It's easier to spend resources on a content meant for majority of players (and get a higher difficulty mode meant for a small minority as a byproduct)

    I think cm should get a good bit of attention because its easier to make a cm and the start toning down or removing mechanics/boss phases instead of making the nm then trying to fit in mechanics to it. Also unlike nm it works as aspirational content, that content ppl outide the game will be told of and will show some interest in experiencing, u dont want that to get the attention of a byproduct. Thats part of the reason why WoW and FF14 have adopted the aproach of releasing nm first then after like 2 or 3 weeks they release the cm, it allows them time to see how players react to the nm as well as time to more finely tune the cm itself. It also makes the game feel busier if stuffs happening more often than once every 3-4 months.

    1. Greatly increase rewards for duplicate boss kills (ie, incentivize joining pugs even if you've already cleared that week).
    2. Either lower raid size to 5 man, or allow Chrono to give 10 man quickness/alacrity. Similarly, allow FB to give 10 man quickness.
    3. Continue broadening the range of viable healers, tanks, and DPS.
    4. Nerf the "pug killer" mechanics and mechanics that require extremely specific roles (Sabetha cannons, Xera leylines, Deimos hands).
    5. Improve raid-specific UI elements (eg, the ability to see a raid member's toughness).
    6. Put in worthwhile rewards for W5 and upwards. Weapon skins that look worse than gemstore skins ain't it.

    Any one of these would be a decent step towards saving raids.

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2019

    Make at least 2 difficulties of raids. Right now raids are to hard fo casuals to do, and to easy for veterans. And give related rewards for these. A bit of gold for easy mode and shiton of rewards for harder mode.
    Right now farming dragonfall gives just a bit less rewards than doing raid fc in decent time. Ppl should think :"if I improve I can make shiton of gold in raids so I'll start to use my brain now"
    Also make Cms repeatable and give rewards for it.

    Personally I don't do raids anymore cuz I don't feel rewarded enough - Yea yea I got some random asc boxes but plz, it's not rly worth the skill wer putting into it if u look at dragonfall or sv

    Edit: I also stopped playing cuz w7 qadim is trash and I lost faith in future design of raids

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • Zuldari.3940Zuldari.3940 Member ✭✭✭

    @Glider.5792 said:
    If you want to increase activity, you need to make raids easier, NOT harder.
    Making them harder will only be great for more experienced and hardcore community (which is leaving the game, woop woop).

    title reward is a good compromise if we cannot have extra loot.

    Soo, we would do it once for the title instead of loot ? This achieves litteraly nothing.

    See i dont agree, unless anet is willing to have multiple difficulty raids ala wow, then i think raids are fine as they are. I personally have not done 7 but raiders i know that have say its not very difficult. Lowering the bar is never a good idea, instead teach people to play better. If you want something to be easy then you are looking for an LFG auto system like wow uses, and i can tell you those lfg groups still wipe because mechanics.

    I dont have a problem with it if they want to add a less hard mode for raids, i have a problem if that will be the only mode.

    Coo! Quaggan Love's You! ♥♥♥

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Safandula.8723 said:
    Make at least 2 difficulties of raids. Right now raids are to hard fo casuals to do, and to easy for veterans.

    They are not hard for casuals to do. They are hard for casual pugs to do. There is a difference

  • CeNedro.7560CeNedro.7560 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2019

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Safandula.8723 said:
    Make at least 2 difficulties of raids. Right now raids are to hard fo casuals to do, and to easy for veterans.

    They are not hard for casuals to do. They are hard for casual pugs to do. There is a difference

    I really would like to see the statistics how many percent of ppl only pug. Like daily fractals. This number must be huge. Lost potential for raids...

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭

    this is discussion from a lot of post look like "we have perfect game, but people not good, please give us new people for raids"
    only I see that ?

  • Glider.5792Glider.5792 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zuldari.3940 said:

    @Glider.5792 said:
    If you want to increase activity, you need to make raids easier, NOT harder.
    Making them harder will only be great for more experienced and hardcore community (which is leaving the game, woop woop).

    title reward is a good compromise if we cannot have extra loot.

    Soo, we would do it once for the title instead of loot ? This achieves litteraly nothing.

    See i dont agree, unless anet is willing to have multiple difficulty raids ala wow, then i think raids are fine as they are. I personally have not done 7 but raiders i know that have say its not very difficult. Lowering the bar is never a good idea, instead teach people to play better. If you want something to be easy then you are looking for an LFG auto system like wow uses, and i can tell you those lfg groups still wipe because mechanics.

    I dont have a problem with it if they want to add a less hard mode for raids, i have a problem if that will be the only mode.

    Raids are already easy enough, and thats the problem. They are too easy for experienced, but too hard for most of the community. At this point, raids are just losing players, since it doesnt appeal to either. Either make em easier or harder, or bring different dificulties.

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeFWMeskOJhk8N-SvOFCJXA
    Fractal speed kills, raids, Black Lion Chest Openings, random.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Glider.5792 said:

    @Zuldari.3940 said:

    @Glider.5792 said:
    If you want to increase activity, you need to make raids easier, NOT harder.
    Making them harder will only be great for more experienced and hardcore community (which is leaving the game, woop woop).

    title reward is a good compromise if we cannot have extra loot.

    Soo, we would do it once for the title instead of loot ? This achieves litteraly nothing.

    See i dont agree, unless anet is willing to have multiple difficulty raids ala wow, then i think raids are fine as they are. I personally have not done 7 but raiders i know that have say its not very difficult. Lowering the bar is never a good idea, instead teach people to play better. If you want something to be easy then you are looking for an LFG auto system like wow uses, and i can tell you those lfg groups still wipe because mechanics.

    I dont have a problem with it if they want to add a less hard mode for raids, i have a problem if that will be the only mode.

    Raids are already easy enough, and thats the problem. They are too easy for experienced, but too hard for most of the community. At this point, raids are just losing players, since it doesnt appeal to either. Either make em easier or harder, or bring different dificulties.

    I think that ship has sailed. The raiders that are left are adamant about not making it easy enough for the rest of the community to access, while wanting to complain about the lack of people, and even if they made them harder, i doubt they would bring back the players who have already left.

    Amana Silentchild; My Main
    Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
    Why GW is Called Guildwars

  • Westenev.5289Westenev.5289 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2019

    How would throwing a title onto CM's or making harder raids help raid activity? The way I see it, the problem with raids is that the casual player thinks the content is already too hardcore (JOIN A TRAINING GUILD IN THE RIGHT TIMEZONE, WATCH HOURS OF YOUTUBE BEFORE TRYING, FIND A 100 KP CHAT CODE, PERUSE AN EMPTY LFG ASIDE FROM TWO OR THREE RAID SELLERS - ain't nobody got time for that after school/work). Throwing a single-use title reward to hardcore raiders probably won't fix that.

  • The one to Rule.2593The one to Rule.2593 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 26, 2019

    Honestly there needs to be both easier and harder modes. Hard mode rewards should also offer more money and be repeatable, something like 5g per boss after that first initial Cm.

  • @Westenev.5289 said:
    How would throwing a title onto CM's or making harder raids help raid activity? The way I see it, the problem with raids is that the casual player thinks the content is already too hardcore (JOIN A TRAINING GUILD IN THE RIGHT TIMEZONE, WATCH HOURS OF YOUTUBE BEFORE TRYING, FIND A 100 KP CHAT CODE, PERUSE AN EMPTY LFG ASIDE FROM TWO OR THREE RAID SELLERS - ain't nobody got time for that after school/work). Throwing a single-use title reward to hardcore raiders probably won't fix that.

    • you can watch like a 10 min vid per boss, i don't think that's outrageous.
    • LFG activity is low because anet doesn't do anything for months and lets content stagnate for months even with glaring problems.
    • If you're the kind of player that uses chat codes to fake kp, you'll likely get kicked for trying to join groups expecting to get carried. It's very apparent when someone doesn't know what they are doing.
    • harder raids will appeal to raiders more as they can't just blow through the content in 2 hours after release. The general skill of raiders has grown and we constantly crave a challenge.
    • If you don't want to join a training guild, make your own progression groups and learn as you go with others. That's more fun than going with randoms anyway.
  • Westenev.5289Westenev.5289 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @The one to Rule.2593 said:

    @Westenev.5289 said:
    How would throwing a title onto CM's or making harder raids help raid activity? The way I see it, the problem with raids is that the casual player thinks the content is already too hardcore (JOIN A TRAINING GUILD IN THE RIGHT TIMEZONE, WATCH HOURS OF YOUTUBE BEFORE TRYING, FIND A 100 KP CHAT CODE, PERUSE AN EMPTY LFG ASIDE FROM TWO OR THREE RAID SELLERS - ain't nobody got time for that after school/work). Throwing a single-use title reward to hardcore raiders probably won't fix that.

    • you can watch like a 10 min vid per boss, i don't think that's outrageous.
    • LFG activity is low because anet doesn't do anything for months and lets content stagnate for months even with glaring problems.
    • If you're the kind of player that uses chat codes to fake kp, you'll likely get kicked for trying to join groups expecting to get carried. It's very apparent when someone doesn't know what they are doing.
    • harder raids will appeal to raiders more as they can't just blow through the content in 2 hours after release. The general skill of raiders has grown and we constantly crave a challenge.
    • If you don't want to join a training guild, make your own progression groups and learn as you go with others. That's more fun than going with randoms anyway.

    You don't have to convince me; I'm happy to pretend raids don't exist out of spite, and laugh at the current perception that "there aren't enough people interested in raids" in one of the most populated mmo's on the market.

    But that wasn't what my post was about. What I'm saying that the current "git gud, study moar, join a guild of strangers" mentality will turn off a lot of "casual" players who often use these excuses, since the entry barrier can seem excessively high if you don't have raider friends (or, well, any friends to begin with...). If you want more casual players trying raids, someone needs to break down these steriotypes - not throw more titles to raiders who probably don't want or need them.

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭

    @Westenev.5289 said:

    @The one to Rule.2593 said:

    @Westenev.5289 said:
    How would throwing a title onto CM's or making harder raids help raid activity? The way I see it, the problem with raids is that the casual player thinks the content is already too hardcore (JOIN A TRAINING GUILD IN THE RIGHT TIMEZONE, WATCH HOURS OF YOUTUBE BEFORE TRYING, FIND A 100 KP CHAT CODE, PERUSE AN EMPTY LFG ASIDE FROM TWO OR THREE RAID SELLERS - ain't nobody got time for that after school/work). Throwing a single-use title reward to hardcore raiders probably won't fix that.

    • you can watch like a 10 min vid per boss, i don't think that's outrageous.
    • LFG activity is low because anet doesn't do anything for months and lets content stagnate for months even with glaring problems.
    • If you're the kind of player that uses chat codes to fake kp, you'll likely get kicked for trying to join groups expecting to get carried. It's very apparent when someone doesn't know what they are doing.
    • harder raids will appeal to raiders more as they can't just blow through the content in 2 hours after release. The general skill of raiders has grown and we constantly crave a challenge.
    • If you don't want to join a training guild, make your own progression groups and learn as you go with others. That's more fun than going with randoms anyway.

    You don't have to convince me; I'm happy to pretend raids don't exist out of spite, and laugh at the current perception that "there aren't enough people interested in raids" in one of the most populated mmo's on the market.

    But that wasn't what my post was about. What I'm saying that the current "git gud, study moar, join a guild of strangers" mentality will turn off a lot of "casual" players who often use these excuses, since the entry barrier can seem excessively high if you don't have raider friends (or, well, any friends to begin with...). If you want more casual players trying raids, someone needs to break down these steriotypes - not throw more titles to raiders who probably don't want or need them.

    Agree with the general sentiment but I think what the casual community needs is not something that the current raiding population can/will reasonably provide. The barrier of entry is so high because the game does such a terrible job at raising the average player. In open world and story, you are never required to interact with your traits, utilities, alternate weapon sets, or change stats on your gear. You can beat all of the open world content and story by auto attacking. I'm not a huge fan of taking current raids and making easy mode versions but I am willing to support content like freezies lair and actual tutorials that explain what a cc bar is, when to use stability, how to use reflects, how to do damage etc. Raise the average skill level of the player base so theres not a 600% difference between a random open worlder and a veteran raider and you'll see the demand for strict requirements start to lessen.

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 26, 2019

    Double post. Pls delete.

  • The one to Rule.2593The one to Rule.2593 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 26, 2019

    @Westenev.5289 said:

    @The one to Rule.2593 said:

    @Westenev.5289 said:
    How would throwing a title onto CM's or making harder raids help raid activity? The way I see it, the problem with raids is that the casual player thinks the content is already too hardcore (JOIN A TRAINING GUILD IN THE RIGHT TIMEZONE, WATCH HOURS OF YOUTUBE BEFORE TRYING, FIND A 100 KP CHAT CODE, PERUSE AN EMPTY LFG ASIDE FROM TWO OR THREE RAID SELLERS - ain't nobody got time for that after school/work). Throwing a single-use title reward to hardcore raiders probably won't fix that.

    • you can watch like a 10 min vid per boss, i don't think that's outrageous.
    • LFG activity is low because anet doesn't do anything for months and lets content stagnate for months even with glaring problems.
    • If you're the kind of player that uses chat codes to fake kp, you'll likely get kicked for trying to join groups expecting to get carried. It's very apparent when someone doesn't know what they are doing.
    • harder raids will appeal to raiders more as they can't just blow through the content in 2 hours after release. The general skill of raiders has grown and we constantly crave a challenge.
    • If you don't want to join a training guild, make your own progression groups and learn as you go with others. That's more fun than going with randoms anyway.

    You don't have to convince me; I'm happy to pretend raids don't exist out of spite, and laugh at the current perception that "there aren't enough people interested in raids" in one of the most populated mmo's on the market.

    But that wasn't what my post was about. What I'm saying that the current "git gud, study moar, join a guild of strangers" mentality will turn off a lot of "casual" players who often use these excuses, since the entry barrier can seem excessively high if you don't have raider friends (or, well, any friends to begin with...). If you want more casual players trying raids, someone needs to break down these steriotypes - not throw more titles to raiders who probably don't want or need them.

    I mean the point of my post wasn't to convince you not to raid or pretend that raids don't exist out of spite. If asking people to watch some vids of the fights is too much, id argue that maybe gaming in general isn't their cup of tea. It takes literally 0 effort to do so in your free time.

    People get kicked for faking kp because instead of being open and honest about their exp they lie and try to pull sneaky stuff like that. I'd much rather a newbie tell me he's new because chances are i can teach him relatively fast and there's no false expectation that we won't have to carry someone through it.

    My point is that for those of us who do regularly raid, the rewards aren't all that wonderful some currency and maybe an ascended drop isnt exciting to those of us who have 15 sets of ascended. I don't care about titles personally i would want more monetary rewards than 2g for a CM kill as that takes considerably more effort than anything else in the game.

    As it stands currently there's no reason to do CMS once you have done them once.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 27, 2019

    @Shikaru.7618 said:
    Agree with the general sentiment but I think what the casual community needs is not something that the current raiding population can/will reasonably provide.

    Oh, that's for sure. If any solution were to happen (which is honestly not so likely anymore), it would have been done by devs, not raiders.

    The barrier of entry is so high because the game does such a terrible job at raising the average player. In open world and story, you are never required to interact with your traits, utilities, alternate weapon sets, or change stats on your gear.

    That's true, but for a different reason than you think. I'd bet that the differences in skill in GW2 population are about the same as in other MMOs. The problem lies in the impact those differences have on your performance.

    Yes, other MMO games do a better job at "raising the average player", because that "raising" is being done by supplying better and better gear. People improve there by gear grind. In gw2 however you reach gear plateau very fast, and most of the progress is done using skill. And thus, the performance difference between someone of average skill and a top player is greater than in other games by an order of magnitude. That is the problem.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.