Please gut Condi Daredevil and Acro Staff Daredevil — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Please gut Condi Daredevil and Acro Staff Daredevil

Condi Daredevil and Acro Staff Daredevil have been running rampant in ranked and are some of the most unhealthy specs in this game atm. Condi thief with high poison uptime because of Deadly Ambition( which is bugged btw if u use a skill that multi hits like clusterbomb it applies the 2 poison per hit)and panic strike which gives even more poison output + has 4 condis to cover it just from 1 dodge(cripple,torment,bleed,weakness). Acro staff thief perma evades on node by abusing staff 3 evade while jumping which cancels the rollback animation vuln frame and is almost impossible to kill without line of warding like spells (Hammer 5 on guard, Fear ring on necro, earth wall on ele). Escapists Foritude grants staff thief ridiculous amounts of clear (1 condi clear per evade) and needs an icd increase. Deadly Ambition needs to have its icd increased like the ranger trait refined toxins which does 1 STACK OF POISON ON A 15 SEC CD(formerly 5sec) and perhaps apply the poison on crit instead of any strike. Panic Strike also needs to have an icd for the poison it grants because currently sword 2 is a spammable free immob + 2 stacks of poison(1 if not traited).

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Comments

  • Dave.6819Dave.6819 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:
    So daredevil is the weakest class right now after so many nerfs.. and we still want to nerf it? Sure sure.. Make steal range 100. Delete condi clear on dodge cuz it's so OP (apparently condi players don't know how to cancel their skills while DrD is dodging i guess.) And.. make staff #3 cost 300 initiative. Alrighty. Oh and nerf staff dmg by 99%. Should be okey for like 1 season atleast.

    Weakest at what? Sure d/p daredevil took a hit with the swipe range, cant think of anything else that's ruined that build regards to theif traits it self.

    Staff daredevil took no hits at all in a while and probably gave it a small buff with the weakness change, as well as condi clear on dodge.

    Condi da traits with poison stacking is annoying though, like 1 choking gas did something like instant 5 stacks

    Just roll back post-HoT or even HoT days and check the list how many nerfs we had.

    #MakeTeefGreatAgain

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2019

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:
    So daredevil is the weakest class right now after so many nerfs.. and we still want to nerf it? Sure sure.. Make steal range 100. Delete condi clear on dodge cuz it's so OP (apparently condi players don't know how to cancel their skills while DrD is dodging i guess.) And.. make staff #3 cost 300 initiative. Alrighty. Oh and nerf staff dmg by 99%. Should be okey for like 1 season atleast.

    Weakest at what? Sure d/p daredevil took a hit with the swipe range, cant think of anything else that's ruined that build regards to theif traits it self.

    Staff daredevil took no hits at all in a while and probably gave it a small buff with the weakness change, as well as condi clear on dodge.

    Condi da traits with poison stacking is annoying though, like 1 choking gas did something like instant 5 stacks

    Just roll back post-HoT or even HoT days and check the list how many nerfs we had.

    I am well aware of the changes. Still didn't stop daredevil until boon pof came out, even dash nerf wasn't noticed.

  • Tycura.1982Tycura.1982 Member ✭✭✭

    @Alatar.7364 said:
    DrD Staff was running rampant in Ranked? O.o

    Can't speak for ranked but it's being abused in AT for sure. It's not your typical vault and bound spam.

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tycura.1982 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:
    DrD Staff was running rampant in Ranked? O.o

    Can't speak for ranked but it's being abused in AT for sure. It's not your typical vault and bound spam.

    They are the staff thieves to be worried about, that use #2#3#4 more than anything else

  • AsiraasiB.7165AsiraasiB.7165 Member ✭✭✭

    My god how many nerf thief threads are there? Please go play a thief...
    I melt condi thieves on my core necro.. Druid no problem.. Most my ele builds....

    And when i run condi thief any competent player does just fine.

  • Dave.6819Dave.6819 Member ✭✭✭

    @AsiraasiB.7165 said:
    My god how many nerf thief threads are there? Please go play a thief...
    I melt condi thieves on my core necro.. Druid no problem.. Most my ele builds....

    And when i run condi thief any competent player does just fine.

    That's what i'm saying. U can take any class in the game and pretty much destroy thief/drd no matter the build they're playing. I've never had any problems against em. I got problems only when i play one.

    #MakeTeefGreatAgain

  • Alatar.7364Alatar.7364 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tycura.1982 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:
    DrD Staff was running rampant in Ranked? O.o

    Can't speak for ranked but it's being abused in AT for sure. It's not your typical vault and bound spam.

    I didn't meet any in neither Ranked nor ATs, I get that people can have different experience, but it seems a suspicious statement anyway.

    ~ I Aear cân ven na mar

  • Tycura.1982Tycura.1982 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2019

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Tycura.1982 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:
    DrD Staff was running rampant in Ranked? O.o

    Can't speak for ranked but it's being abused in AT for sure. It's not your typical vault and bound spam.

    I didn't meet any in neither Ranked nor ATs, I get that people can have different experience, but it seems a suspicious statement anyway.

    Ive ran up against it three times in late day ATs. Twice with JonesBoy and once from some other named Private somthing. That's in the last week.

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Daredevil/Acro lines are indeed granting too much. Thief needed a buff, but it didn't need literally "permanent dodge/evade spam and condi cleanse". I don't even care about the damage output, that's fine. It's the "infinitely slippery" part that makes it too much.

    In team fights where they actually have stability being splashed on them, you seriously cannot kill these new Daredevil builds. Because the one moment you do land a CC, it won't CC it. And boon removal isn't reliable to use when you miss the Thief 9/10s you attempt to strike it. It's too much defensive play.

    New builds, slap it up on build editor if you can

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2019

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Daredevil/Acro lines are indeed granting too much. Thief needed a buff, but it didn't need literally "permanent dodge/evade spam and condi cleanse". I don't even care about the damage output, that's fine. It's the "infinitely slippery" part that makes it too much.

    In team fights where they actually have stability being splashed on them, you seriously cannot kill these new Daredevil builds. Because the one moment you do land a CC, it won't CC it. And boon removal isn't reliable to use when you miss the Thief 9/10s you attempt to strike it. It's too much defensive play.

    New builds, slap it up on build editor if you can

    You haven't seen this yet? It's like a sustainy Staff/Shortbow Condi Spam Perma Dodge-Evade build. Not quite exactly sure what they are running for an amulet, but I'm positive it's Deadly/Acro/Daredevil, and probably something like Carrion/Adventurer with double Energy sigils I'm sure. Annoying AF.

    They swap into SB and drop #4 for the poison field, and then dodge roll through it for whirl finisher poison bolts, swap back to Staff when they're low on init/endurance and rebuild it all back up while healing off those new traits mind you. It's just too much man. Worst part is, that build can actually hold a node. Only things it can't kill are things with a lot of very frequent small condi cleanses. Things with less frequent larger condi clears or few condi clears in general, get absolutely destroyed by this build. There is no counter play. And even if this build somehow begins to lose to something on a node, it can just disengage and leave because it has a shortbow. Annoying AF I tell ya. Heralds will be pushed out of meta eventually this season due to this build.

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Daredevil/Acro lines are indeed granting too much. Thief needed a buff, but it didn't need literally "permanent dodge/evade spam and condi cleanse". I don't even care about the damage output, that's fine. It's the "infinitely slippery" part that makes it too much.

    In team fights where they actually have stability being splashed on them, you seriously cannot kill these new Daredevil builds. Because the one moment you do land a CC, it won't CC it. And boon removal isn't reliable to use when you miss the Thief 9/10s you attempt to strike it. It's too much defensive play.

    New builds, slap it up on build editor if you can

    You haven't seen this yet? It's like a sustainy Staff/Shortbow Condi Spam Perma Dodge-Evade build. Not quite exactly sure what they are running for an amulet, but I'm positive it's Deadly/Acro/Daredevil, and probably something like Carrion/Adventurer with double Energy sigils I'm sure. Annoying AF.

    They swap into SB and drop #4 for the poison field, and then dodge roll through it for whirl finisher poison bolts, swap back to Staff when they're low on init/endurance and rebuild it all back up while healing off those new traits mind you. It's just too much man. Worst part is, that build can actually hold a node.

    Oh, my mistake. Didn't know you was referring to condi staff.

    Weaking charge is also a whirl finisher too.

    Deadly arts is poison overload now and the I intrupts with choking gas just make it worse.

  • BadMed.3846BadMed.3846 Member ✭✭✭

    I see mesmers flying around here.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭

    I haven't been playing lately but is condi thief really that big of a problem?

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2019

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    I haven't been playing lately but is condi thief really that big of a problem?

    Middle tier Thieves no. Good Thieves, debatable. Great Thieves, the kitten is broken when people know telegraphs well and can actually dodge everything you do that is important because the class is providing them that much dodge/evade power.

    But even so, I believe Holosmith is on a higher priority for balancing before Daredevil. Holo stacks in organized AT play is just absolutely disgusting right now. Everything else in the game is getting nerfed hard and begin given drawbacks. Because Holo has not had this yet, it's on a different level than other builds right now. When you have a team with no Holos vs. a team with 2x Holos, it feels like you showed up to a boxing match and your opponent brought a gun with him. Unless they do something about, which I'm sure they won't, it's going to put a nasty flavor on S18.

  • LolLookAtMyAP.8394LolLookAtMyAP.8394 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2019

    The biggest downside to Staff/Staff daredevil is its low defense, one shot from a Ranger LB spammer or anyone with strong ranged attack can shut the build down.

  • Lighter.5631Lighter.5631 Member ✭✭✭

    it's still here? i saw those staff thieves weeks ago before i went to play other games, i thought they would have been patched by now..
    they literally holds point against 3 people in plat...

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @AsiraasiB.7165 said:
    My god how many nerf thief threads are there? Please go play a thief...
    I melt condi thieves on my core necro.. Druid no problem.. Most my ele builds....

    And when i run condi thief any competent player does just fine.

    That's what i'm saying. U can take any class in the game and pretty much destroy thief/drd no matter the build they're playing. I've never had any problems against em. I got problems only when i play one.

    as condimes you cant touch them, even once. if you land any point of damage you can consider it a victory :D
    they can run into 2 chaos storm on top of a reflect field, and take no damage while killing you. fun stuff.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:
    So daredevil is the weakest class right now after so many nerfs.. and we still want to nerf it? Sure sure.. Make steal range 100. Delete condi clear on dodge cuz it's so OP (apparently condi players don't know how to cancel their skills while DrD is dodging i guess.) And.. make staff #3 cost 300 initiative. Alrighty. Oh and nerf staff dmg by 99%. Should be okey for like 1 season atleast.

    Weakest at what? Sure d/p daredevil took a hit with the swipe range, cant think of anything else that's ruined that build regards to theif traits it self.

    Staff daredevil took no hits at all in a while and probably gave it a small buff with the weakness change, as well as condi clear on dodge.

    Condi da traits with poison stacking is annoying though, like 1 choking gas did something like instant 5 stacks

    Just roll back post-HoT or even HoT days and check the list how many nerfs we had.

    I can say that about any build though. Remember mirage or scourge of FB, etc...

    Overall dare devil is okay.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2019

    It's not a 'conspiracy' or a 'fabricated lie'; Truth exposes it all.

    "The truth cannot be deceptive, and one who sees it cannot be deceived'

    Guild Wars 2 will continue on its Self-Destructive Toxic path until the complete removal of Thief

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2019

    /nevermind.

    I don't care.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • NecroSummonsMors.7816NecroSummonsMors.7816 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2019

    I will speak only about condi daredevil because it's what I've fought the most, so I can't really speak about the other builds.
    The condi daredevil has an obnoxious gameplay to say the least, the problem in my opinion is the fact that it can stack poison so much and so frequently, that to resist an assult you really have to pack too much condi clear and too frequent. Of course you don't want to gut a spec as soon as annoying and overperforming build come out, so probably we should look at how to tone it down without having to gut it and keeping it an option to play.

    The most contributors to this are Deadly Arts traits Deadly Ambition and Potent Poison, the interaction between the daredevil dodge Impaling Lotus with the short bow 4 Chocking Gas and the interaction between Detonate Cluster (bomb) multiple hits and Deadly Ambition.
    Ideally one should go for an approach prone to the reduce the spam of the skills while making them remain effective when properly casted.

    So I would propose as a starting point to:

    • increase Deadly Ambition cooldown
    • removing the whirl finisher from Impaling Lotus
    • make so that deadly ambition doesn't get proc for each of the multiple hits of Detonate Cluster bomb but it should gets triggered only by 1 single hit.

    This three things if well calibrated can reduce the condi spam a lot, for what concerns the too much evading I do not know how to approach it yet.

  • Whitworth.7259Whitworth.7259 Member ✭✭✭

    I'd like to see some footage of this being an issue outside of silver tier. If you just say it's bad, no one can help figure out where you're going wrong.

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Perma evading isn't a problem as long as it isn't a source of pressure.
    Like stealth isn't a problem if it doesn't give opportunity to burst harder than anyone could take.

    That's basic balance. Otherwise that's basic trolling.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I’d point out that the build being complained about has very few gap closers and minimal AoE pressure range.

    Kiting will get you a long way. Especially if the opponent has to use their dodges defensively.

    Don’t stand on node. Kite them and fight from range. Also, use projectile denial skills to block a lot of extra combo effects from the dodges at close range.

    And bring cleanse. You probably need that to fight a condi build.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Alatar.7364Alatar.7364 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2019

    I am willing to agree that Staff DrD might be a thing now due to increase mentions on forums, despite not seeing a single one on my own though, although its true I troll around on it myself, however Condi Staff? Just hold up, this I really really doubt, I play pvp almost daily including frequent ATs and this not only I never met but also never even heard anyone mention it until this thread. Someone explain please.

    ~ I Aear cân ven na mar

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Just........ lol

  • @saerni.2584 said:
    Kiting will get you a long way. Especially if the opponent has to use their dodges defensively.

    Don’t stand on node. Kite them and fight from range. Also, use projectile denial skills to block a lot of extra combo effects from the dodges at close range.

    Isn't this exactly the problem with that build though? It's pretty difficult to kill a skilled condi DD on point with that build, while they have plenty of tools to bring you down unless you invest heavily in aoe/anti-projectile/constant cleanse (which, by design, would reduce your ability to hit them as hard as you could otherwise). Of course, they still retain the ability to back off whenever they want to with all the thief-y stuff they have. Essentially it keeps much of the mobility that thieves always had, but can now actually stand against 2 enemies on point. Not a fan.

    But as always, nothing teaches you how to take down a nasty build than trying to run it yourself. There's just no better way to learn where the vulnerabilities are. I'm the worst pvp thief I know, so I won't be burdening my teams with that, but I look forward to hearing about more countermeasures.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭

    The problem with Condi DD is that people don't usually fight them, which results in unpracticed results.

    Condi DD is an absolute joke when facing a Purity of Purpose Scrapper.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2019

    Deadly Ambition has had it's bug fixed.

    Deadly Ambition: Fixed a bug that could cause this trait to activate multiple times on the same target without going on cooldown.

    Someone run a mock and see if we are still looking at overperformance in terms of poison stacks from the DA line.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2019

    @LolLookAtMyAP.8394 said:
    The biggest downside to Staff/Staff daredevil is its low defense, one shot from a Ranger LB spammer or anyone with strong ranged attack can shut the build down.

    Low defense? A lot of them run knight/paladin amulet with dolyak runes.

    Plus, they have extremely high active defenses with all of the evades and low cd stun break.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @voltaicbore.8012 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    Kiting will get you a long way. Especially if the opponent has to use their dodges defensively.

    Don’t stand on node. Kite them and fight from range. Also, use projectile denial skills to block a lot of extra combo effects from the dodges at close range.

    Isn't this exactly the problem with that build though? It's pretty difficult to kill a skilled condi DD on point with that build, while they have plenty of tools to bring you down unless you invest heavily in aoe/anti-projectile/constant cleanse (which, by design, would reduce your ability to hit them as hard as you could otherwise). Of course, they still retain the ability to back off whenever they want to with all the thief-y stuff they have. Essentially it keeps much of the mobility that thieves always had, but can now actually stand against 2 enemies on point. Not a fan.

    But as always, nothing teaches you how to take down a nasty build than trying to run it yourself. There's just no better way to learn where the vulnerabilities are. I'm the worst pvp thief I know, so I won't be burdening my teams with that, but I look forward to hearing about more countermeasures.

    I can’t speak to jump exploits to avoid the vulnerability frames.

    What I can suggest is kiting off point. A number of builds can cover a point in Deadly AoE damage. But, once those abilities expire they do far less damage. You might lose the point for a few seconds but dying will hurt your team more.

    From a condi perspective:

    1) Load them up in a burst then stow weapons. This gives no attacks to evade and they will be unable to cleanse unless they have a separate source of cleanse.

    2) If they have secondary cleanse they will probably be vulnerable if you can save even one extra condi attack until after that cleanse. Again, stow weapons. They will flail hoping you keep attacking and bleed out on the floor.

    General advice:

    1) Kite away and let them use resources chasing you. Most of their damage abilities are field combos and short range projectiles. Keep moving.

    2) Cleanse is not an “extra” it is a requirement. Projectile denial is also baked into certain builds. A FB on your team has plenty of it and AoE cleanse. Group play may be required to fight one of these.

    3) Hard CC can hit this during vulnerability frames. Save your burst and force the thief to retreat. Or chain CC because thief lacks stability and stunbreaks. That will kill plenty of them.

    Will this beat a top thief? Maybe not but then you can’t balance around a gold player fighting a top player and complaining their build is too OP.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    wait u seriously guys writing about condi staff build? i cant belive it works tbh

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Safandula.8723 said:
    wait u seriously guys writing about condi staff build? i cant belive it works tbh

    I’m entertaining it mainly because you might be able to do a hybrid build and I’m not willing to say it can’t work.

    Might as well point out the ways condi thief can be fought and why it isn’t usually impossible for experienced players to win against. Might educate a few people in the process.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2019

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @LolLookAtMyAP.8394 said:
    The biggest downside to Staff/Staff daredevil is its low defense, one shot from a Ranger LB spammer or anyone with strong ranged attack can shut the build down.

    Low defense? A lot of them run knight/paladin amulet with dolyak runes.

    Plus, they have extremely high active defenses with all of the evades and low cd stun break.

    A Knight/Paladin Daredevil with Dolyak runes isn't going to kill anything, and also isnt going to be able to contest a point for very long.
    It's either full Condi with carrion/rabid or Mara/Demo if you want to have any kind of presence for thieves.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • AsiraasiB.7165AsiraasiB.7165 Member ✭✭✭

    Tried out the condi staff build.. It isn't bad tbh lol.. Still not overpowered

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Low defense? A lot of them run knight/paladin amulet with dolyak runes.

    Plus, they have extremely high active defenses with all of the evades and low cd stun break.

    A Knight/Paladin Daredevil with Dolyak runes isn't going to kill anything, and also isnt going to be able to contest a point for very long.
    It's either full Condi with carrion/rabid or Mara/Demo if you want to have any kind of presence for thieves.

    Yeah it can still kill lol

    There was a menders staff thief hitting for 6k on his vaults. Knights and paladins can hit 2-3k bounds, 2-3k staff 3s, and 6k vaults as well.

    Also, you should watch Anya's stream or some other staff thieves play. I've seen some of them contest 1v4 at mid for an extended period of time.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2019

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Low defense? A lot of them run knight/paladin amulet with dolyak runes.

    Plus, they have extremely high active defenses with all of the evades and low cd stun break.

    A Knight/Paladin Daredevil with Dolyak runes isn't going to kill anything, and also isnt going to be able to contest a point for very long.
    It's either full Condi with carrion/rabid or Mara/Demo if you want to have any kind of presence for thieves.

    Yeah it can still kill lol

    There was a menders staff thief hitting for 6k on his vaults. Knights and paladins can hit 2-3k bounds, 2-3k staff 3s, and 6k vaults as well.

    Also, you should watch Anya's stream or some other staff thieves play. I've seen some of them contest 1v4 at mid for an extended period of time.

    Menders I believe, but the others? I need to see builds. I'll take a look. 1v4 on point contest as a thief sounds unbelievable, unless you sacrifice all of your damage output for some kind of gimmick and the entire team wastes time trying to kill you.

    If condi thief needs tweaks it needs tweaks. There was a poison stacking issue not far out of the gate to begin with.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Low defense? A lot of them run knight/paladin amulet with dolyak runes.

    Plus, they have extremely high active defenses with all of the evades and low cd stun break.

    A Knight/Paladin Daredevil with Dolyak runes isn't going to kill anything, and also isnt going to be able to contest a point for very long.
    It's either full Condi with carrion/rabid or Mara/Demo if you want to have any kind of presence for thieves.

    Yeah it can still kill lol

    There was a menders staff thief hitting for 6k on his vaults. Knights and paladins can hit 2-3k bounds, 2-3k staff 3s, and 6k vaults as well.

    Also, you should watch Anya's stream or some other staff thieves play. I've seen some of them contest 1v4 at mid for an extended period of time.

    Menders I believe, but the others? I need to see builds. I'll take a look. 1v4 on point contest as a thief sounds unbelievable, unless you sacrifice all of your damage output for some kind of gimmick and the entire team wastes time trying to kill you.

    If condi thief needs tweaks it needs tweaks. There was a poison stacking issue not far out of the gate to begin with.

    Mmm

    • Menders and Paladins have 1050 power
    • Knights has 900 power

    Not counting the precision, Menders and Paladins hit for the same with Knights falling only slightly behind.

    Also, 1vX on staff thief isn't very far-fetched considering the build has extremely high evade uptimes with a trick that removes the punish frames.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2019

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Low defense? A lot of them run knight/paladin amulet with dolyak runes.

    Plus, they have extremely high active defenses with all of the evades and low cd stun break.

    A Knight/Paladin Daredevil with Dolyak runes isn't going to kill anything, and also isnt going to be able to contest a point for very long.
    It's either full Condi with carrion/rabid or Mara/Demo if you want to have any kind of presence for thieves.

    Yeah it can still kill lol

    There was a menders staff thief hitting for 6k on his vaults. Knights and paladins can hit 2-3k bounds, 2-3k staff 3s, and 6k vaults as well.

    Also, you should watch Anya's stream or some other staff thieves play. I've seen some of them contest 1v4 at mid for an extended period of time.

    This is what I mean by my previous post:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    I haven't been playing lately but is condi thief really that big of a problem?

    Middle tier Thieves no. Good Thieves, debatable. Great Thieves, the kitten is broken when people know telegraphs well and can actually dodge everything you do that is important because the class is providing them that much dodge/evade power.

    The people who are confused as to why this build is being discussed, haven't seen the great thieves that actually know how to troll on that build. It's also important to point out the ridiculously high frequency of poison that it is pumping out, which nerfs all the heals of the opponents in a team fight. This build isn't OP in the way that people are thinking we are discussing. It's more OP in the way that Bunker Druids were OP in old HoT meta, before all the hard nerfs. Where it can 1v3+ troll and actually has enough attrition and poison heal nerfs to be dangerous over the course of time.

    I don't even care about non Staff Daredevil variants. It's the Staff on Daredevil with Acro that becomes silly. I love how in a single patch, Arenanet removes evade frame from Druid Staff 3, then gives Daredevil permanent Dodging/Evading. Makes sense.

  • Alatar.7364Alatar.7364 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2019

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    I love how in a single patch, Arenanet removes evade frame from Druid Staff 3, then gives Daredevil permanent Dodging/Evading. Makes sense.

    What do you mean by "then gives"? DrD and Acro has always existed as in nothing changed for it with the update that also removed evade from Druid Staff 3, Acro Staff was even more powerful long time ago, Anet didn't give Acro Staff any buffs or changes in the update that you mentioned, in fact it lowered the evade of Daggerstorm at least.

    ~ I Aear cân ven na mar

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2019

    If staff thief is on the sides, being capable of side node and brawling, why is that bad?

    This is what many thieves wanted.

    I seen many of you who don't like thief can 1 v x, but were fine when your class did or does it.

    Acro staff got no more dodges than it had before, only weakening strikes and escapist fortitude were changed, but the heal in fortitude was already free.

    Havoc mastery was also taken before the patch, so the bonus 7% damage was there.

    Essentially it got a free condi clear on evades.

    I read the patch notes, and it seems the intent was to make them melee oriented.

    So, what do you want?

    take away the condi clear? fix the "trick" on staff?

    I play the staff thief, and the combo i use to most effect is palidins and eagle (or divinity).

    I mean if it has to be nerfed, okay. I had fun, but out of 480 ranked games i played, I rarely saw any staff thief that had skill besides Anya, Vallun, and someone else I forgot. (i saw plenty of s/d, few condis, and a few dp that were really skillful though)

    I feel like I am the only potato who played it.

    But, I KNOW...I KNOW....it can be frustrating to kill these guys.

    i can live without the "trick" and putting a cooldown on EF if it needs to happen, but literally other than that, how did you deal with staff thieves before?

    The trick has been here the whole time.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    Deadly Ambition has had it's bug fixed.

    Deadly Ambition: Fixed a bug that could cause this trait to activate multiple times on the same target without going on cooldown.

    Someone run a mock and see if we are still looking at overperformance in terms of poison stacks from the DA line.

    It doesn't really seem to be perfectly fixed. Sometimes you get more poison that u should, but so far i've seen only 1 wonky detonate cluster for 6 poison stacks when it should have been 3. Which is definetely better than the 10-12 garanteed before

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    **If staff thief is on the sides, being capable of side node and brawling, why is that bad? **

    This is what many thieves wanted.

    I seen many of you who don't like thief can 1 v x, but were fine when your class did or does it.

    Acro staff got no more dodges than it had before, only weakening strikes and escapist fortitude were changed, but the heal in fortitude was already free.

    Havoc mastery was also taken before the patch, so the bonus 7% damage was there.

    Essentially it got a free condi clear on evades.

    I read the patch notes, and it seems the intent was to make them melee oriented.

    So, what do you want?

    take away the condi clear? fix the "trick" on staff?

    I play the staff thief, and the combo i use to most effect is palidins and eagle (or divinity).

    I mean if it has to be nerfed, okay. I had fun, but out of 480 ranked games i played, I rarely saw any staff thief that had skill besides Anya, Vallun, and someone else I forgot. (i saw plenty of s/d, few condis, and a few dp that were really skillful though)

    I feel like I am the only potato who played it.

    But, I KNOW...I KNOW....it can be frustrating to kill these guys.

    i can live without the "trick" and putting a cooldown on EF if it needs to happen, but literally other than that, how did you deal with staff thieves before?

    The trick has been here the whole time.

    Because thieves can run shortbow and staff. Hasn't thief balance almost always been, rotational ability/mobility/engage-disengage potential, but gave up some kill power because of it? I think the current state of things was juuuuuust enough to push DrD to the point where it could brawl on side nodes, but still fulfill its +1/decap role as well...

    Which, if we're being honest, isn't that bad when compared to the other meta specs, but still. I would rather see DrD get some nerfs to damage and compensated with an extra bit added to some skills - 'Gains x extra dmg/effect if you evade an attack during it', to reward skillful play and punish folks who just spam.

    I think Anet should take a page from lessons learned from Escapist's Fortitude. It's a powerful trait, yes, but limited in that you can condi bomb the thief and then just walk away and they'll likely keel over because there's nothing to evade to proc it. Currently, fighting one is...if you attack the DrD, they evade and damage you.
    If you don't attack them, they evade anyway and deal damage.

    From a balance perspective - I think it's fine. From an interactivity/fun perspective, eh...could use some tweaks as detailed above.

    Ofc it's important to consider that other builds have changed as well, which can sometimes influence still more builds and their places in the meta (or lack thereof - just look at rev). Still, I think a large part of it is that people aren't used to thieves being up to snuff this much and are scrambling to learn how to deal with it xD Eh.

    ..I do think Fortitude needs it's heal trimmed tho. That's a lot of healing and cleanse coming from one trait for a build whose primary defense is evades. The weakness output definitely, imo, means that the heal shouldn't be that high.

    Can't comment on condi DrD, I've been playing pistol/dagger core lately.

    Alternatively - remove the 'trick'. The counter to DrD/staff has always been hitting them during vuln frames. Now that nobody who knows what they're doing uses Vault very much, and instead relies on dodges/staff#3, there are...well, minimal to 0 vuln frames. Plays into the whole dodging to evade incoming dmg and good positioning lets you deal damage back versus...dodging to deal damage, doesn't matter if there's an attack incoming or not.

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