The Problem with PvP — Guild Wars 2 Forums

The Problem with PvP

I will be blunt: I played the Classic World of Warcraft stress test and it IS going to be used in this explanation. If comparing two games in the exact same genre or the thought of WoW offends you, move along.

NOW THEN, ON TO THE MAIN POINT. The PvP in Guild Wars 2 is flawed. No sane individual with any understanding of the game will argue that point. The pro scene is dead, win trading is rampant and the Guild Wars 2 dev team is doing everything in their power to pretend that PvP doesn't exist. The point I want to focus on is far more fundamental than these issues, though. I wasn't able to notice it at first, but coming back from the WoW stress test has given me a fresh pair of eyes and now I can't un-see the fundamental issue Guild Wars 2 has: Abilities simply do too many things at once. What do I mean by this? Let me give a few examples from WoW for a moment: Shadow Word: Pain, Frost Bolt, and Garrote. For those of you that don't know what these do, I'll explain:
-) Shadow Word: Pain is a targetted Damage over Time effect that has no cooldown, low mana cost and can be cast instantly. It does no initial damage and cannot stack with itself. It's a fairly weak ability that has a VERY simple task: Damage. Over. Time.
-) Frost Bolt is a spell that has a roughly 1.5 second cast time for a small amount of damage and slows. The slow is dependent on the rank of the spell, which also increases the damage and mana cost. Damage and a slow, but has a sizable cast time.
-) Garrote is an ability that silences the target for 2 seconds (In Guild Wars 2 it would be a Daze) and does damage over time, but can only be used from stealth. Stealth cannot be regained during combat without using another ability with a 3-minute cooldown. Stealth slows you by 50% and taking ANY damage causes you to lose stealth.

Why am I wasting your time with these abilities from another game with a much, much slower combat system? It's rather simple: These abilities don't do much, and that's the entire point. WoW gives you a long list of spells to make your character with, and you won't use all of them. You have to choose what you want your character to be good at, and that specialization comes with a cost and a glaring weakness for that set of skills you chose. Guild Wars 2, on the other hand, can't seem to simplify any buttons on their action bars to save its own life. The most BASIC of abilities in the game have special properties tied to them. Necromancer's Staff 1, the simplest of their abilities, do the following: It can hit up to 5 targets, pierces through all enemies, has a 20% chance to be a physical projectile combo finisher, gives the caster 4% life force and has the ability to be traited to do EVEN MORE THINGS. In WoW, when a rogue hits someone with a dagger, the attack does nothing but cause your weapon's damage to the target. Plain and simple delivery of damage. GW2's Thief's Dagger 1? The first attack is a double strike, followed by an attack that regains endurance, followed by an attack that causes poison. A simple auto-attack applies a debuff, regains energy and hits 4 times with 3 attacks. Starting to see my point? Abilities are overloaded to an absurd degree in GW2, and nowhere is this more so than within the Elite Specializations. Let's pick on Holosmith: Corona Burst, a single button, does ALL of the following: "Strike nearby foes and begin to store up energy, gaining boons and heat each pulse. After charging, the energy explodes, inflicting conditions on nearby foes." In other words, it's an AoE attack that grants two stacks of might, causes 8 out of 25 total possible vulnerability stacks, hits multiple times over 5 pulses, counts as an explosion and is affected by three traits. If these traits are taken, this ability furthermore grants stability, shields, can cause additional vulnerability and has a chance to cripple and bleed the target. All of this on a single push of a button. This bloating is hardly limited to Holosmith. You can argue that all these effects are a "necessary evil" due to the limitations of the 10 button system that Guild Wars 2 has in place. You're entitled to that opinion, but let me explain why this limitation makes no sense:
-) While WoW can have the ability to have 40+ button slots onscreen simultaneously, the vast majority of them aren't even used for combat. A plethora of abilities are not used in combat and would be better off considered as novelty item-like effects. On average, the characters in WoW use around 16 buttons.
-) Guild Wars 2 has weapon swapping, special stances, kits, stealth-exclusive abilities, etc. While there can only be 10 abilities on screen at once, any good engineer can happily show you the 40+ buttons they can have on-demand with their kits. PvP is a symptom of a deeper problem. These "Meta Builds" that people run are practically the only viable ways to play their classes. When one out of the five players trying to kill you has 7 different ways to stunlock your character across 4 buttons, you need to have immediate access to multiple stun breakers and mass stability. When anyone running a condition build can do your healthbar over time with the press of two buttons, you need to have access to mass condition cleanse. Classes without access to either of these have to abuse long evasion/invulnerability times to avoid being obliterated. PoF has done little more than pour oil onto this fire of a problem by bloating what each elite can do. Deadeye Thief, for example, can mash 4 on their rifle and remove a stack of debuffs in less than a second. They still need to run Precision Signet (Removes 3 stacks of conditions immediately at the press of a button from themselves and allies) to avoid exploding when a condi class so much as looks at them.

In summary: I'm all for fast-paced combat, but the reaction time expected of the average player in PvP is just unreasonable. I've watched players in platinum-ranked games, who by all accounts are far better than me, die to being clipped by some random ability they had no way of reacting to and exploding in less than a second. You can call me bad all you want, but I feel like abilities need to have a large amount of what they do stripped down and slowed down. At least in PvP.

Comments

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2019

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Ill do you one better.... Not including range or duration.

    Earth Overload...:
    Cripple
    Immobilize
    direct damage
    bleed stacks
    summons dust storm
    applies magnetic aura
    applies stability
    applies protection
    removes conditions
    applies regen
    applies vigor
    applies swiftness
    applies fury
    increases crit damage
    Increases precision
    heals the user
    Heals allies
    breaks stun
    blast finisher

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    Ill do you one better.... Not including range or duration.

    Earth Overload...:
    Cripple
    Immobilize
    direct damage
    bleed stacks
    summons dust storm
    applies magnetic aura
    applies stability
    applies protection
    removes conditions
    applies regen
    applies vigor
    applies swiftness
    applies fury
    increases crit damage
    Increases precision
    heals the user
    Heals allies
    breaks stun
    blast finisher

    You gotta post a screen cap of the tool tip in all it's glory to really show just how wild some of the stuff is in the game.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • XECOR.2814XECOR.2814 Member ✭✭✭

    Please dont say staff auto on necro is overloaded ever. You are losing credibility.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So for 7 years skills doing several things were okay but because of anet's neglect of sPvP today.. it ruins the combat system? I don't get it.

    Unless your argument is that the core game was less balanced than WoW, because if not your issue is with the elite specs - and furthermore alot of the added effects need to be traited, which in some cases goes at the cost of other equally sound options - allowing you to be great at 1 thing only but have glaring weaknesses.

    The only skills in the game that are truly overloaded are profession mechanics when traited , and I don't really see an issue with that as it is your professions main source of utility - and every profession have equal options to do so.

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2019

    >

    Ok but doesn't that mark have like 10 traits tied to it? Ofc it's going to be overloaded :-/

  • Alatar.7364Alatar.7364 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2019

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    >

    Ok but doesn't that mark have like 10 traits tied to it? Ofc it's going to be overloaded :-/

    In my opinion if you invest entire traitline and several other traits from other lines in to one single skill that to be honest is not even too strong despite all that, then I don't think it deserves to be used as an example of some stuff being "overloaded", especially since the rest of the kit is, for that very reason, pretty plain and definitely not overloaded.

    ~ I Aear cân ven na mar

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2019

    Another unwarrented cry about DE, nothing to see here folks just move along.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @XECOR.2814 said:
    Please dont say staff auto on necro is overloaded ever. You are losing credibility.

    You're missing the point of the OP I think. He probably take necromancer's staff's AA because among the auto-attack it's one of the weakest yet compared to WoW things it's already overloaded with effects.

    The thing is that GW2 and WoW are 2 vastly different games. One with a gameplay relying on a restricted number of skills, while the other just fill it's skillbar with every skills possible. One with a gameplay heavily dependant on a ressource (mana) while the other is just limited by cool down most of the time.

    I'm not saying that he don't have a point by saying that gw2's skills are in general overloaded with to many effects but comparing WoW and GW2 is like comparing apples and potatoes (yeah, not even orange, potatoes).

  • Widmo.3186Widmo.3186 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2019

    @Lost Elegy.9276 said:
    -) Garrote is an ability that silences the target for 2 seconds (In Guild Wars 2 it would be a Daze) and does damage over time, but can only be used from stealth. Stealth cannot be regained during combat without using another ability with a 3-minute cooldown. Stealth slows you by 50% and taking ANY damage causes you to lose stealth.

    Ive said it many, many times before but you used caps so lets start it over again. You know why stealth is being disrupted when one take damage in WoW and it doesnt when one take damage in gw2? Answer is...bim bam bom...autoattacks! In WoW in order to reveal someone you need to use AoE skill which has channel-time (eg. Blizzard) , AoE skill with one field that has fair cooldown (eg. consecrated ground), or instant re-castable spells that drains your mana like...you know like what (eg. Arcane Explosion). The other option is attacking stealthed person you need to come close to it, target it and use target-locked skill (eg. many, just like Sinister Strike). So basically, in order to reveal someone you must either stay still casting sth, use one of your CD, drain your mana/hp or come closer to enemy and be in danger of random backstab. Pretty fair, isnt it?

    Now lets look at gw2, here you can just simply, SIMPLY spam aa and randomly hit sth with it. No mana, no cd, no hp, nothing, n o t h i n g is being spend. Not even talking about small/long range AoEs or stupid pewpew laser-tracking ranger Rapid Fire. Also pretty fair, isnt it? This game wont ever be like WoW because its basics are so different, you would either need to change whole mechanic (here eg. stealth) or whole combat system.

    Combat system in gw2 is more dynamic than in WoW, especially classic one. And its good, gw2 was supposted to be new MMO, not another WoW copy. What we lack is proper balancing system. In my opinion up to HoT things were more or less balanced. Even bunker meta was more fun than what we have now. PoF gave this game so much unbalanced things that I cannot even think how long would be the list If one wanted to create it. But thats okay, ppl do mistakes, but also try to fix them. So, we noticed that Mirage is overperforming, community noticed, "pros noticed", developers noticed. We shall make the game playable again, right? Month should be fine amount of time. Have we done it? Nope, year must pass to see any good changes for one overperforming class (meanwhile 2 or so raid wings, wohoo).
    I dont even mention "balancing" technique which is disabling certain traits in certain game-mode instead of fixing it, because its far more than hillarious.

    If developers changed their mind-set from "If everything is OP then nothing is OP" to actually playing the game and trying to pretend they know what theyre doing, Id appreciate it. Or at least playing forgotten part of the game.

    Dont mind me, I just randomly spam 35 skill-buttons

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2019

    Imagine a 4 sec stun in gw2 rofl...
    Just wondering why you compare a game that gives you like 40+ skills at hand, all available at same time with a game gives you 10 (weaponskills, only 5 available at same time)+5 (utilities)+1-4 (classspecific f skills). Can't you image, that the game with that way less skills available at same time gives the skills more impact/ effects and lower cd? I think that makes sense that gw2 skills offer more, not to mention the faster combat with dodge mechanic needs to be balanced differently to wow in this regard.

    @Widmo.3186 said:

    @Lost Elegy.9276 said:
    -) Garrote is an ability that silences the target for 2 seconds (In Guild Wars 2 it would be a Daze) and does damage over time, but can only be used from stealth. Stealth cannot be regained during combat without using another ability with a 3-minute cooldown. Stealth slows you by 50% and taking ANY damage causes you to lose stealth.

    Ive said it many, many times before but you used caps so lets start it over again. You know why stealth is being disrupted when one take damage in WoW and it doesnt when one take damage in gw2? Answer is...bim bam bom...autoattacks! In WoW in order to reveal someone you need to use AoE skill which has channel-time (eg. Blizzard) , AoE skill with one field that has fair cooldown (eg. consecrated ground), or instant re-castable spells that drains your mana like...you know like what (eg. Arcane Explosion). The other option is attacking stealthed person you need to come close to it, target it and use targer-locked skill (eg. many, just like Sinister Strike). So basically, in order to reveal someone you must either stay still casting sth, use one of your CD, drain your mana/hp or come closer to enemy and be in danger of random backstab. Pretty fair, isnt it?

    The only thing i would change to stealth in gw2 is that players who miss a skill (for example hit a block or trying to attack with blind etc) don't get revealed. It is not logical, that the stealthed player gets rewarded with staying in stealth when failing an attack out of stealth. That also would have been a less clunky way to balance thief stealth attacks instead giving Backstab an ICD.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

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