why players crying about new squad invisible tag now? vets asked for feature long time ago — Guild Wars 2 Forums

why players crying about new squad invisible tag now? vets asked for feature long time ago

title.

longer time players want this feature for many years but all casual cry about not even bother look at map 90% of time can judge where guild might be look for OJs and go there? look map what capped think ok our team may to be here... how hard to ask in chat any groups... play proper alongside guild group if they not already tell these pugs to go then it okay. squad crutch back in day player are using to party LFG.... just doing this. it is simple form 5 man party. i really to think newer player want all easy mode for them. cannot think outside of box.

it from memory good for invisible group. it similar havoc, small man team. it often guild group want break off of main tag. can understanding? these player want hone skill together without pug interrupt. how to improve guild fight tactic skill if pug attract and to die one push rallybot all time? these same pug cry about blob... if guild group were to tag then how would to guess - whole map are on guild group. what this surely player pug understand multiple groups on map proper tactic not just mindless zerg 1 tag boring blobfest.

why do these player entitle to always want tag visible never think for self?

sorry for my English.

<1

Comments

  • I think people wants to know where others are. WvW has some players doing only daily tasks. Commander = group of people doing something, so doing stuff is much easier if you can come and "help" and take tower or count some kills.

    Commander, to ME!

  • SexyMofo.8923SexyMofo.8923 Member ✭✭✭

    Honestly, no one cares. Repairing walls is better gameplay.

  • Mil.3562Mil.3562 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 14, 2019

    @SexyMofo.8923 said:
    Honestly, no one cares. Repairing walls is better gameplay.

    I prefer to revive npcs, especially quartermasters... rub rub rub...

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 14, 2019

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    well pugs and casuals want to know there is a team fighting for them. its a good feeling to see if there is one. as a commander myself, i like it when others tag. i join their squad and i support if i can.

    when i see no squad, then i just do my thing. and lead and people join. but if ww tagless, players dont show up because they think we are not raiding or no coms online.

    this is still a community game. and if tags hide, gives a feeling of loneliness. unless, you've always been roaming with few and you dont mind.

    It's not like they are removing the option to tag public.

    People who want to tag public still will and that includes more than just pickups. I'm sure there are plenty of groups who want their tag to be visible on map for many other reasons (guild-guild coordination and so on). I remember mentioning it in the other thread. The positives of the change is that it promotes overall organisation in the mode. The same as how people who want to tag public still can, people who didn't want to tag public just ran without a tag before. The only difference is that they now get access to squad utility tools that promote organising a bit more.

    The main argument I see against hidden tags seem to be the misconception that not being able to hide a tag somehow forces players to tag public and be more inclusive. Not only is that a pretty negative perspective on other players and content but in my experience also plain wrong. People rather not tag than being compelled to and rather play without the tools provided by the tag than being forced to go public against their will. That misconception usually comes with entitlement issues and I believe it can, even in a positive commanding environment, add to the positives of commanding by providing commanders with tools and options as well as reminding players that tags are favours granted by commanders and not something to take for granted.

    In the longer term it can hopefully remind Anet of that as well, since alot of piecemeal direction involving WvW has seemingly assumed that there will always be tags and they need numbers to fill out the squads. They've taken tags for granted and not kept an eye on how they are birthed and maintained. Getting players into WvW is not that simple and such an assumption risks harming the mode in different ways.

    The big winners with the change are those using the option to go hidden but still be a positive influence, such as being able to covertly organise and still be helpful to someone you perhaps may dislike or don't want to play with or under. There's less need to get into arguments when you can organise yourself without affecting whoever is organising publicly. For example, a bunch of Rangers getting kicked out of a squad can now make their own, with access to more powerful tools than afforded by a simple party without incurring the wrath of being a competing tag. Guilds can funnel players to the pickup tag that needs them by making sure only the true public tag is visible and so on. You can tag either public or private depending on the social environment and adapt around positive and negative influences on the map. If there's value to show your tag you can and if you can avoid problems by hiding it, you can. Having access to the tools also lets you learn how to use them and organize with them for when you are ready to go public. That can promote new tags appearing.

    All in all, this is a commander-centric change, a producer perspective rather than just an assumptious consumer perspective and that is a positive in my book. I find the change more player centric, because a player should want to start groups and do organisation because that creates content. The mode shouldn't impose demands, expectations and hurdles on a player who wants to buy and try a tag.

  • TamX.1870TamX.1870 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 14, 2019

    @Antycypator.9874 said:
    I think people wants to know where others are. WvW has some players doing only daily tasks. Commander = group of people doing something, so doing stuff is much easier if you can come and "help" and take tower or count some kills.

    Yes, but correct me if I am wrong, but even before invisible commander tag those people who wanted to play without public tags did it anyways. Invisible tag just helps them a bit. In general, I think it won't change anything.

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    well pugs and casuals want to know there is a team fighting for them. its a good feeling to see if there is one. as a commander myself, i like it when others tag. i join their squad and i support if i can.
    when i see no squad, then i just do my thing. and lead and people join. but if ww tagless, players dont show up because they think we are not raiding or no coms online.
    this is still a community game. and if tags hide, gives a feeling of loneliness. unless, you've always been roaming with few and you dont mind.

    I agree with these things, although I don't see invisible tag doing any harm. Closed groups have always been closed groups, with or without tag. This community aspect bothers me most in this entire game. For reason or another, the circles here are very small (mostly only your guilds). You don't make easily new friends from random people you meet.

  • why players crying about new squad invisible tag now? vets asked for feature long time ago

    Because not everyone agreed that it was a good thing for the game long time ago, when vets first started asking for it. People posted negative opinions "long time ago," they just weren't as notable because no-private-squad was the default/status quo.

    Personally, I don't think it's ultimately all that important. People who wanted to run privately last year found ways to do so. To me, it's more of a change in perspective rather than a change that will be meaningful to the game mode.

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • DeadlySynz.3471DeadlySynz.3471 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Easy way around it, add whom you know is the commander to your friends list then follow them to whatever map. They won't hide themselves from being online otherwise enemy commanders won't see them and thus won't seek them out to fight them either.

  • Those that wanted to run closed and without a visible tag were doing so for months. Months and months and months. Invisible tag just makes it easier (now if only they would fix party view in the squads). There are a lot of reasons people run closed. Some of which is to keep from getting flooded by non-essential classes. Some to keep from getting too big. I know that last one won't be believed, but some groups do run closed to try to keep from going over 20 or 30. The solution would be is if there is someone you want to follow, talk to the driver. I know this is a far out idea, but maybe join their guild gasp.

    [KiS] is a hostage situation. Pls send help.

  • Iozeph.5617Iozeph.5617 Member ✭✭✭

    YEAH! And best of all it makes bag trading/farming easier for opposing teams arranging fights over voip. Now, unless someone wanders into whatever corner of the map they've agreed to do this in they need never be found out. Not as if there's anything better to do in the game mode anymore, right? First it was the greasy slide into permitting third party programmes now ANet's completely given up and has essentially legitimised win trading. See? Who says WvW doesn't get love and attention from the devs?

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shiri.4257 said:

    @radiantbliss.6875 said:
    Those that wanted to run closed and without a visible tag were doing so for months. Months and months and months. Invisible tag just makes it easier (now if only they would fix party view in the squads). There are a lot of reasons people run closed. Some of which is to keep from getting flooded by non-essential classes. Some to keep from getting too big. I know that last one won't be believed, but some groups do run closed to try to keep from going over 20 or 30. The solution would be is if there is someone you want to follow, talk to the driver. I know this is a far out idea, but maybe join their guild gasp.

    The top 3 actual reasons why tags run invisible:

    1) they don't want the server knowing they failed to defend an objective
    2) they don't want the server kowing they failed to take an objective
    3) generate a perception that they are doing anything useful in wvw when they really aren't.

    1 2 3 presuposes they want to ppt. if that premise is wrong, then the conclusion isnt set. =)

    we need fight guilds. we need them to keep people off the structure.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 14, 2019

    Probably because a majority of the WvW community at this point is casual/PvE players in there for daily quests and grinding for Gift of Battle.

    Most of the "Vets" and serious GvG scene that wanted this feature quit GW2 only a few months after HoT landed. PoF did the rest of us in who wouldn't let go at first.

    Honestly, this feature mattered a lot more when rallies weren't capped like they are now and where coordination mattered cross-discipline, like blasting waters/good field positioning/not overriding them. With those nuances missing, the feature isn't really that important when "stack scourges to win" and similar mechanisms are a thing.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.
    Quit/Inactive. No, you can't have my stuff.

  • HazyDaisy.4107HazyDaisy.4107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I imagine the biggest gripes are coming from the tag watchers that can't tag watch anymore. Honestly I don't see this being a big deal to anyone else.

    [HaHa] Hazardous Hallucination - Sorrows Furnace

  • @shiri.4257 said:
    The top 3 actual reasons why tags run invisible:

    1) they don't want the server knowing they failed to defend an objective
    2) they don't want the server knowing they failed to take an objective
    3) generate a perception that they are doing anything useful in wvw when they really aren't.

    Can't tell if serious......

    [KiS] is a hostage situation. Pls send help.

  • shiri.4257shiri.4257 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @shiri.4257 said:

    @radiantbliss.6875 said:
    Those that wanted to run closed and without a visible tag were doing so for months. Months and months and months. Invisible tag just makes it easier (now if only they would fix party view in the squads). There are a lot of reasons people run closed. Some of which is to keep from getting flooded by non-essential classes. Some to keep from getting too big. I know that last one won't be believed, but some groups do run closed to try to keep from going over 20 or 30. The solution would be is if there is someone you want to follow, talk to the driver. I know this is a far out idea, but maybe join their guild gasp.

    The top 3 actual reasons why tags run invisible:

    1) they don't want the server knowing they failed to defend an objective
    2) they don't want the server kowing they failed to take an objective
    3) generate a perception that they are doing anything useful in wvw when they really aren't.

    1 2 3 presuposes they want to ppt. if that premise is wrong, then the conclusion isnt set. =)

    we need fight guilds. we need them to keep people off the structure.

    If a fight guild dies in a forest and doesn't make a sound. Did it really fight?

    Spectre [VII] - Wood League Champion. Making "fight guilds" stack on higher tiers since 2013.
    Michelin rated WvW guild since 2015. The gold standard. Never transferred, never reformed, adapting and reloading with or without Anet.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shiri.4257 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @shiri.4257 said:

    @radiantbliss.6875 said:
    Those that wanted to run closed and without a visible tag were doing so for months. Months and months and months. Invisible tag just makes it easier (now if only they would fix party view in the squads). There are a lot of reasons people run closed. Some of which is to keep from getting flooded by non-essential classes. Some to keep from getting too big. I know that last one won't be believed, but some groups do run closed to try to keep from going over 20 or 30. The solution would be is if there is someone you want to follow, talk to the driver. I know this is a far out idea, but maybe join their guild gasp.

    The top 3 actual reasons why tags run invisible:

    1) they don't want the server knowing they failed to defend an objective
    2) they don't want the server kowing they failed to take an objective
    3) generate a perception that they are doing anything useful in wvw when they really aren't.

    1 2 3 presuposes they want to ppt. if that premise is wrong, then the conclusion isnt set. =)

    we need fight guilds. we need them to keep people off the structure.

    If a fight guild dies in a forest and doesn't make a sound. Did it really fight?

    Yes, it's a scrim.

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2019

    I think invisible tag should be limited to less than 20 people squads.

    Nothing good will come if blob commanders start running discord-only invisible. People won't stick on maps (or join discord) after checking there is no commander.

    I mean invisible tag is great and all but it also causes problems like not knowing if someone is coming to defend and if another guild is already fighting at battlemarkers. It is not that big of a deal since guilds could already run invisible with the catmander trick but I feel like communication between groups is never a bad thing. Not to mention open tags might start causing queues on maps with guilds, which causes some unnecessary toxicity because lot of people don't understand cause and effect.

    Tbf another reasonable fix would have been just removing long-duration stealth this is the biggest issue guilds have with pugs. Visible pugs ruining a jump on someone. Just increasing veil duration by like 1 second and making long-distance stealth impossible would change attitudes a lot.

    Ri Ba - WvW Commander, scout, loudmouth, tryhard
    Making Desolation great again/Alt somewhere
    Diamond Legend

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Threather.9354 said:
    I think invisible tag should be limited to less than 20 people squads.

    Nothing good will come if blob commanders start running discord-only invisible. People won't stick on maps (or join discord) after checking there is no commander.

    I mean invisible tag is great and all but it also causes problems like not knowing if someone is coming to defend and if another guild is already fighting at battlemarkers. It is not that big of a deal since guilds could already run invisible with the catmander trick but I feel like communication between groups is never a bad thing. Not to mention open tags might start causing queues on maps with guilds, which causes some unnecessary toxicity because lot of people don't understand cause and effect.

    Tbf another reasonable fix would have been just removing long-duration stealth this is the biggest issue guilds have with pugs. Visible pugs ruining a jump on someone. Just increasing veil duration by like 1 second and making long-distance stealth impossible would change attitudes a lot.

    This is kind of self moderated.

    For starters if you have a 20 man pug then why wouldnt you want those sweet 3 pips? Its just a blob.

    Secondly if you are invisible... How do you get people for a blob?

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • @Dawdler.8521 said:

    This is kind of self moderated.

    For starters if you have a 20 man pug then why wouldnt you want those sweet 3 pips? Its just a blob.

    Secondly if you are invisible... How do you get people for a blob?

    You get guild mates?
    That are running compatible builds and arn't just rally bot.
    A pug with a bad build doesn't help, it's a nuisance for organized groups

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    imo. if you want a healthy wvw - you've got to have a community. someone to take charge and get things going.

    i know my guild even if we're the only ones left in nsp, we'll still have fun since it only requires atleast 3 of us to do our thing. but others may not like that. so - if you want someone to tag public - someone has to step up. the same with scouts etc. got to make it so people stay and talk. i mean this is a glorified chat mechanism.

    so talk to ppl. ask them to scout, roam, defend, or join the squad and make it so that it's worth their while. - some give participation, others online friendship, etc.

    wvw is community based and the best anet can do is give us a worthy carrot. maybe less tiers too. hehe.

    a note on tournaments - these can be done for 1 week pre relinking. so months ahead ppl can group up and stakc their desired server; so they can boom the competition on that 1 week. and then transfer regroup again after. it'll be fun.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2019

    I think the issue lies with:

    If people can't be bothered to tag up even though they get 4 pips by now for running a public squad, the game mode has more serious issues than fight guilds running closed tags.

    As to why fight guilds run closed tags:

    • rallying is one thing, even if randoms often respect closed tags if there is public tags around (on my server at least)
    • stealth blasts and engages are a primary reason why you want to remain closed. There is no point stealth blasting when you have 2-3 players give away your position
    • blasting in general, nothing like having that last minute clutch light field in your group to f-up a pre-engage blast because some random guardian decided he needs swiftness right now

    Those are the main 3.

    Now I'm torn on this issue. For one, running closed tags does make the border seem emptier to everyone. Having multiple hidden tags of closed groups makes it harder to distinguish which objective needs help since commanders can't see each other, is another problem. The entire system needs some rework I think. Also the currently buggy squad system really needs addressing asap (not sure if the patch this morning fixed things, haven't checked yet).

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2019

    if i am to pin point 1 major issue, it is this:

    you need to communicate with each other to get things done.

    so hidden tags make it difficult unless the hidden tags are friends and help each other.

    public tag forgoes this by having someone to rally and said groups morale rises and lowers based on accomplishment, unless friends play.

    wvw is like any pve mode, you got to have a basic strat to get things done and those who do not conform.to that basic setup will be a drag.

    i.e. siege, supplies, coordination, team synergy.

    the example i mentioned can be accomplished multiple ways if players communicate.

    and having someone to coordinate it is really important.

    for those who have served, you know how important your team leader is. and the members who synergize.

    practice, repetition, imagination, knowledge, experience, and the ability to adapt on the now.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @FitzChevalerie.1035 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    This is kind of self moderated.

    For starters if you have a 20 man pug then why wouldnt you want those sweet 3 pips? Its just a blob.

    Secondly if you are invisible... How do you get people for a blob?

    You get guild mates?
    That are running compatible builds and arn't just rally bot.
    A pug with a bad build doesn't help, it's a nuisance for organized groups

    If I could just ask my guild mates to come and always get a 50 man blob I wouldnt need to run hidden either - I'd zerg every map openly.

    He wasnt talking about guild raids. And with the premise of "it should only be for 20 or less" in the quote, 99.9% of guild runs wouldnt be affected by a limitation.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • XECOR.2814XECOR.2814 Member ✭✭✭

    Just made enemy out of my whole server just because i said to a comm running guild only tag(visible) with 6 members to maybe make it open because there were 30+ people following them out of squad and getting farmed near keep. I think invis tag is good option for people like that so that they dont cause more harm than good.

  • Mil.3562Mil.3562 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2019

    I think this private squad thing doesn't change much. Those who like to run closed squad and tagless already did that years ago.

    This function only enable those latecomers to see where their guild squad or their private squad is.

    Anyway the private tag is useful when sometimes you just want to run alongside a zerg and not wanting to join it. Pop up your tag, only you can see it, others can't and all squad invites will be blocked :D

  • gebrechen.5643gebrechen.5643 Member ✭✭✭

    Let them cry. The whole wvw community fills that pool of tears for years now.

    Disciples of the monkey god [Apes]

  • Jaidy.1824Jaidy.1824 Member ✭✭

    I haven't seen any one running around with the invisible tag yet, so i guess no one is using it.

    Oh wait ...

  • Donn.9024Donn.9024 Member ✭✭

    Private/invisible squads existed before change too.

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2019

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @FitzChevalerie.1035 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    This is kind of self moderated.

    For starters if you have a 20 man pug then why wouldnt you want those sweet 3 pips? Its just a blob.

    Secondly if you are invisible... How do you get people for a blob?

    You get guild mates?
    That are running compatible builds and arn't just rally bot.
    A pug with a bad build doesn't help, it's a nuisance for organized groups

    If I could just ask my guild mates to come and always get a 50 man blob I wouldnt need to run hidden either - I'd zerg every map openly.

    He wasnt talking about guild raids. And with the premise of "it should only be for 20 or less" in the quote, 99.9% of guild runs wouldnt be affected by a limitation.

    Nah people in general don't care about pips that much, at least on EU. I suggested different possible changes:
    either:
    1) Make invisible squad available to only normal guilds (20 or less)
    or
    2) Make the problems pugs cause away (stealth blasting)

    Unfortunately you think about this too straightforward, some blob commanders have such a big ego that they don't care about new players and only want people on discord. Thus they run invisible tags on public discords. They lack the reasoning between cause and effect. They're the same people who transfer the moment they don't get more than 40 people in squad, meaning bandvagoners or, if I may say, leeches that lack leadership qualities.

    And yes, it is daily occurance for EU servers to have 40+ on discord, sometimes even 100.

    Ri Ba - WvW Commander, scout, loudmouth, tryhard
    Making Desolation great again/Alt somewhere
    Diamond Legend

  • juno.1840juno.1840 Member ✭✭✭

    Troll post to create discord... Don't feed.

  • Lord of the Fire.6870Lord of the Fire.6870 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2019

    I don't like it but well there are also positive things and things lay deep under it. Many of it was already said

    Pros:
    1. I can make with my pve guild missions in wvwv with a handful guild mate who do it without people following us meaningless.
    2. Its great to counter spies which have alt ACs on other servers

    Cons:
    1. In my early days of WvW I followed guild zergs when no public zergs was there or the commander of the public zergs had a personality which I couldn't stand out. With this it becomes impossible and I fear new players will have a lot harder now which they already have because : you need you wvw equip, your mount , and now less possibilities to join a battle
    2. Its create chaos because no guild writes in the team chat if they tag up on another map , so you don't know who is on the map. This can result that both zergs/guild don't get their full squad on the map. They can unwillingly end up joining a fight or aiming on the same object or if it is the public zerg the commander can be suddenly get a rude whisper what he/she is doing on the map or fight here.

    **What you can do differently with the system in place : **
    Guilds can/must communicate more what they are doing and Arena NET should/must implement a System where you can see how full a map is before a queue pops up.

    Looking Deeper:
    The deep problem I see is the reason why guild want to tag invisible what they really want to do is GvG and not WvW and nobody should disturb them by doing it or steal their bags. This is already a long(er) time so.

    For them GvG/Pkk is everything because PPT and working with the server as a whole don't get any rewards besides Karma and WxP which became nearly worthless through changes and progress e.g I have 10 mio karma and can't spend it for anything meaningful besides the new pve Map but the amount increase more then I can spend on a daily bases there.

    I did already make a lot of suggestion to fix this like increasing the rewards for PPT by giving an extra event box for conquering or successful defending objects with mats in it scaling with the kind of object. Also allowing the scaling of some tactics in objects with the tier level of the object and giving champs the tier 2 tactic slots giving PPT also more meaning.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:
    I don't like it but well there are also positive things and things lay deep under it. Many of it was already said

    Pros:
    1. I can make with my pve guild missions in wvwv with a handful guild mate who do it without people following us meaningless.
    2. Its great to counter spies which have alt ACs on other servers

    Cons:
    1. In my early days of WvW I followed guild zergs when no public zergs was there or the commander of the public zergs had a personality which I couldn't stand out. With this it becomes impossible and I fear new players will have a lot harder now which they already have because : you need you wvw equip, your mount , and now less possibilities to join a battle
    2. Its create chaos because no guild writes in the team chat if they tag up on another map , so you don't know who is on the map. This can result that both zergs/guild don't get their full squad on the map. They can unwillingly end up joining a fight or aiming on the same object or if it is the public zerg the commander can be suddenly get a rude whisper what he/she is doing on the map or fight here.

    **What you can do differently with the system in place : **
    Guilds can/must communicate more what they are doing and Arena NET should/must implement a System where you can see how full a map is before a queue pops up.

    Looking Deeper:
    The deep problem I see is the reason why guild want to tag invisible what they really want to do is GvG and not WvW and nobody should disturb them by doing it or steal their bags. This is already a long(er) time so.

    For them GvG/Pkk is everything because PPT and working with the server as a whole don't get any rewards besides Karma and WxP which became nearly worthless through changes and progress e.g I have 10 mio karma and can't spend it for anything meaningful besides the new pve Map but the amount increase more then I can spend on a daily bases there.

    I did already make a lot of suggestion to fix this like increasing the rewards for PPT by giving an extra event box for conquering or successful defending objects with mats in it scaling with the kind of object. Also allowing the scaling of some tactics in objects with the tier level of the object and giving champs the tier 2 tactic slots giving PPT also more meaning.

    agree, we were able to do guild missions. yesterday we were able to do it without any issues.

    and people doing small groups are enjoying this, especially markers etc.

    downside is, morale of players defending if no tag isnt as high, atleast in nsp. but once we tag not invis, its easier.

    i know they want fights and we oblige. our sea pop is few but our eu is decent.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • DeadlySynz.3471DeadlySynz.3471 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I saw 2 amusing things last night that thwarted the invisible tag guilds:

    1. Someone through up a rogue tag and just followed them around to identify exactly where the guild/group is running so people could follow them anyway
    2. People refused to call out the location of any enemy or any objectives being attacked unless they made their tag public and identified if and where they were going to map hop

    While #2 is kinda childish but somewhat deserved against those who insist on running invisible tags in a game/mode that is community based, #1 is far more amusing as it completely cancels out secretiveness itself.

    While those who wanted to run closed tags/groups prior to this change, they did it anyway. But WvW doesn't really have a thriving bustling population at the moment, so any change that encourages players to segregate or hide from one another isn't exactly positive. If people really have a problem with groups running closed, hidden, or otherwise trying to keep private, use #1, someone throw up a tag and follow them around so they can't hide.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 16, 2019

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:
    I saw 2 amusing things last night that thwarted the invisible tag guilds:

    1. Someone through up a rogue tag and just followed them around to identify exactly where the guild/group is running so people could follow them anyway
    2. People refused to call out the location of any enemy or any objectives being attacked unless they made their tag public and identified if and where they were going to map hop

    While #2 is kinda childish but somewhat deserved against those who insist on running invisible tags in a game/mode that is community based, #1 is far more amusing as it completely cancels out secretiveness itself.

    While those who wanted to run closed tags/groups prior to this change, they did it anyway. But WvW doesn't really have a thriving bustling population at the moment, so any change that encourages players to segregate or hide from one another isn't exactly positive. If people really have a problem with groups running closed, hidden, or otherwise trying to keep private, use #1, someone throw up a tag and follow them around so they can't hide.

    because reason 1 is why i dont run closed anymore. i have a soft spot for pugs. and also why i created my core of 10 to carry.

    as for #2, meh, if someone did that to us, id simply just wont care. no call out no loss. not my problem.

    also to bypass # 2, i have players who go to the sites to confirm. =p

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • SWI.4127SWI.4127 Member ✭✭✭

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:
    I saw 2 amusing things last night that thwarted the invisible tag guilds:

    1. Someone through up a rogue tag and just followed them around to identify exactly where the guild/group is running so people could follow them anyway
    2. People refused to call out the location of any enemy or any objectives being attacked unless they made their tag public and identified if and where they were going to map hop

    While #2 is kinda childish but somewhat deserved against those who insist on running invisible tags in a game/mode that is community based, #1 is far more amusing as it completely cancels out secretiveness itself.

    While those who wanted to run closed tags/groups prior to this change, they did it anyway. But WvW doesn't really have a thriving bustling population at the moment, so any change that encourages players to segregate or hide from one another isn't exactly positive. If people really have a problem with groups running closed, hidden, or otherwise trying to keep private, use #1, someone throw up a tag and follow them around so they can't hide.

    I can see how invis tag would seem insulting as a pug, but you should just let that group play how they like to play IMO. Especially since Anet saw fit to make it an actual feature finally. People enjoy the game in different ways. Some guilds like fighting alone to see how they really stack up against others or to challenge themselves. Excluding pugs is not anything personal against the pugs. Just another perspective for you. I actually agree that it is not very conducive to bringing new people into the game mode. The answer isn't to intentionally frustrate some people on your server because you feel they are being exclusionary though.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 16, 2019

    I'm glad for invisi tag, allows squads in PvE to run around together without people expecting a com to be doing something specific.
    Really handy for us ^^
    Guild missions etc and all that kinda stuff too

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think we need to run with things for a couple of months to see how this plays out since people will be adapting for a while. Saw additional tags this week versus less but people's mileage will vary.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/HoTS/Civ6/CU/AoC

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 19, 2019

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:
    I don't like it but well there are also positive things and things lay deep under it. Many of it was already said

    Pros:
    1. I can make with my pve guild missions in wvwv with a handful guild mate who do it without people following us meaningless.
    2. Its great to counter spies which have alt ACs on other servers

    Cons:
    1. In my early days of WvW I followed guild zergs when no public zergs was there or the commander of the public zergs had a personality which I couldn't stand out. With this it becomes impossible and I fear new players will have a lot harder now which they already have because : you need you wvw equip, your mount , and now less possibilities to join a battle
    2. Its create chaos because no guild writes in the team chat if they tag up on another map , so you don't know who is on the map. This can result that both zergs/guild don't get their full squad on the map. They can unwillingly end up joining a fight or aiming on the same object or if it is the public zerg the commander can be suddenly get a rude whisper what he/she is doing on the map or fight here.

    **What you can do differently with the system in place : **
    Guilds can/must communicate more what they are doing and Arena NET should/must implement a System where you can see how full a map is before a queue pops up.

    Looking Deeper:
    The deep problem I see is the reason why guild want to tag invisible what they really want to do is GvG and not WvW and nobody should disturb them by doing it or steal their bags. This is already a long(er) time so.

    For them GvG/Pkk is everything because PPT and working with the server as a whole don't get any rewards besides Karma and WxP which became nearly worthless through changes and progress e.g I have 10 mio karma and can't spend it for anything meaningful besides the new pve Map but the amount increase more then I can spend on a daily bases there.

    I did already make a lot of suggestion to fix this like increasing the rewards for PPT by giving an extra event box for conquering or successful defending objects with mats in it scaling with the kind of object. Also allowing the scaling of some tactics in objects with the tier level of the object and giving champs the tier 2 tactic slots giving PPT also more meaning.

    The problem with taking a folksy approach and trying to extrapolate from a casual perspective like you're doing here is that you have a whole history of documentation in this game speaking against you. If you are curious about the behaviour of different guilds you can simply go to Youtube and search for it. You don't even have to engage in a discussion and take someone's word for it. I think my vanilla guild put out like 30 videos, my HoT guild at least around 20 and so on. It's a full video diary of the behaviours you try not to describe, but rather ascribe and attribute to those outgroups. They do this and they do that. If you go look at some guilds you can see that the vast majority of them are far more interconnected with what you describe as "WvW" than you are.

  • @Threather.9354 said:
    I think invisible tag should be limited to less than 20 people squads.

    Nothing good will come if blob commanders start running discord-only invisible. People won't stick on maps (or join discord) after checking there is no commander.

    In a healthier environment I would hands down agree with you.
    At this point in the game though, things are getting so cynical that I believe that some good things could come from overthrowing the "tyranny of the majority". I'm not sure how things are on your current server but on the account I play most of my time on now we're looking at - if people join coms - upwards of 75% have their mics turned off. In squads of 50, it's not uncommon that less than 5 players say anything (useful) over stretches of hours and commanders do mic checks because the dead silence makes them believe their own mics do not work as they talk to themselves. We also have situations where certain occassional players can cause 100-man queues (eg., on resets) with no other borders tagged or populated to speak of while their friends and guildmates spend the entire session in queue as everyone and their mother want access to that one player.

    Yet, admittedly, it is a shame that it has come to such levels of cynicism and that we still after 7 years have systems like the queue system which was archaic already at release.

  • @Mil.3562 said

    I prefer to revive npcs, especially quartermasters... rub rub rub...

    You keep your fuzzy paws off of her

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    why run tagless?

    so we can take sentries and camps in peace. <3. and catchup on things.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There's a reason that blue tag is generally the public tag. The entitlement is strong here.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 19, 2019

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:

    @Threather.9354 said:
    I think invisible tag should be limited to less than 20 people squads.

    Nothing good will come if blob commanders start running discord-only invisible. People won't stick on maps (or join discord) after checking there is no commander.

    In a healthier environment I would hands down agree with you.
    At this point in the game though, things are getting so cynical that I believe that some good things could come from overthrowing the "tyranny of the majority". I'm not sure how things are on your current server but on the account I play most of my time on now we're looking at - if people join coms - upwards of 75% have their mics turned off. In squads of 50, it's not uncommon that less than 5 players say anything (useful) over stretches of hours and commanders do mic checks because the dead silence makes them believe their own mics do not work as they talk to themselves.

    You can't expect people to talk to strangers so casually. Some people don't actually have mics. The basic expectation is that they may listen and be able to deal with certain movements more easily.

    I mean yes they could put in the effort to join your server and not listen to you, but at that point who really cares.

  • @ArchonWing.9480 said:

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:

    @Threather.9354 said:
    I think invisible tag should be limited to less than 20 people squads.

    Nothing good will come if blob commanders start running discord-only invisible. People won't stick on maps (or join discord) after checking there is no commander.

    In a healthier environment I would hands down agree with you.
    At this point in the game though, things are getting so cynical that I believe that some good things could come from overthrowing the "tyranny of the majority". I'm not sure how things are on your current server but on the account I play most of my time on now we're looking at - if people join coms - upwards of 75% have their mics turned off. In squads of 50, it's not uncommon that less than 5 players say anything (useful) over stretches of hours and commanders do mic checks because the dead silence makes them believe their own mics do not work as they talk to themselves.

    You can't expect people to talk to strangers so casually.

    Haha, good one B)

  • @subversiontwo.7501 said:

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:
    I don't like it but well there are also positive things and things lay deep under it. Many of it was already said

    Pros:
    1. I can make with my pve guild missions in wvwv with a handful guild mate who do it without people following us meaningless.
    2. Its great to counter spies which have alt ACs on other servers

    Cons:
    1. In my early days of WvW I followed guild zergs when no public zergs was there or the commander of the public zergs had a personality which I couldn't stand out. With this it becomes impossible and I fear new players will have a lot harder now which they already have because : you need you wvw equip, your mount , and now less possibilities to join a battle
    2. Its create chaos because no guild writes in the team chat if they tag up on another map , so you don't know who is on the map. This can result that both zergs/guild don't get their full squad on the map. They can unwillingly end up joining a fight or aiming on the same object or if it is the public zerg the commander can be suddenly get a rude whisper what he/she is doing on the map or fight here.

    **What you can do differently with the system in place : **
    Guilds can/must communicate more what they are doing and Arena NET should/must implement a System where you can see how full a map is before a queue pops up.

    Looking Deeper:
    The deep problem I see is the reason why guild want to tag invisible what they really want to do is GvG and not WvW and nobody should disturb them by doing it or steal their bags. This is already a long(er) time so.

    For them GvG/Pkk is everything because PPT and working with the server as a whole don't get any rewards besides Karma and WxP which became nearly worthless through changes and progress e.g I have 10 mio karma and can't spend it for anything meaningful besides the new pve Map but the amount increase more then I can spend on a daily bases there.

    I did already make a lot of suggestion to fix this like increasing the rewards for PPT by giving an extra event box for conquering or successful defending objects with mats in it scaling with the kind of object. Also allowing the scaling of some tactics in objects with the tier level of the object and giving champs the tier 2 tactic slots giving PPT also more meaning.

    The problem with taking a folksy approach and trying to extrapolate from a casual perspective like you're doing here is that you have a whole history of documentation in this game speaking against you. If you are curious about the behaviour of different guilds you can simply go to Youtube and search for it. You don't even have to engage in a discussion and take someone's word for it. I think my vanilla guild put out like 30 videos, my HoT guild at least around 20 and so on. It's a full video diary of the behaviours you try not to describe, but rather ascribe and attribute to those outgroups. They do this and they do that. If you go look at some guilds you can see that the vast majority of them are far more interconnected with what you describe as "WvW" than you are.

    Hm I don't know can I be called casual whit 6 hour playtime on a daily basis and with 10 Mio karma while I also spent the same amount before ? The requirement to not be a causal must be pretty hardcore these days. xD . Yes I know people know each other.

    No really I didn't meant that everybody is so server and guild a different and naturally I do ppk and openfield fights a lot too . Pkk and PPT should be two sides of the same coin. Problem this is theory and this is not how my server acts for the most part. What I also said about chaos this is true or was true because the people learned that if they are doing stealth runs without reason it create chaos they found that out the hard way already.

    Okay my server in this regrade is not a great example this is properly the reason I would like an increase of the link between PPT and PPK. My server has no roamer guilds or PPT focused guilds the only thing they are doing mostly is PPK okay to be fair there are some guild who are doing or trying to do PPT at the same time. I must also saying we winning a lot of fight even against the best guilds in the EU pool and even when we got heavy beating months later you won't have same easy going like before (e.g. Kill).

    We don't have often a night raid but when they took over the situation is mostly like this : Supps are near empty , the towers aren't T3, no def is build and sometimes there aren't even tactics in the towers. When we are linked with a server which have a lot of roamer and guild who are doing PPT and have people who are also doing it outside of the prime time we went straight to T0.(with Millersund)

    Also when you enter a fight of a guild where you thing you should help you get bad post from them and I won't forget the day a public commander took the public zerg went into the obsidian sanctum to do GvG as a public zerg and continued so while the keep at the homes was under siege.

    Yeah there are a reason why we second to last when we aren't linked.

  • Kovu.7560Kovu.7560 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 19, 2019

    I'm pretty sure the only groups running tagless are doing so to discourage extra militia from following them around so they can get "fights". I don't think these people are running tagless to do covert ppt or avoid tag clutter on the minimap.
    So give taggers two options, (apart from simply not running a tag and putting a squad reticle on top of your driver):

    • The normal tag that is visible to your team.
    • A tag that is only visible to the enemy team.

    Seems kind of weird, but I'm sure those groups strictly looking for fights would be all for knowing where the enemy group strictly looking for a fight is. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

    ~ Kovu

    Ranger main before it was viable.
    Fort Aspenwood.

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