Should there be a counter to Invulnerability? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Should there be a counter to Invulnerability?

EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited August 15, 2019 in PVP

Should there be a counter to Invulnerability for more healthy plays?
Currently almost every defense has a counter.

  • Blocks = Unblockables
  • Evades = Non-evadable skills
  • Invis = Reveals
  • Barriers = More DPS
  • Immune Physical = Condi
  • Immune Condi = Physical
  • Boons = Corruption/Strip
  • Heal = Poison
  • Teleports/Mobility = Range/blinks

But Invulnerability = total immunity.
Irregardless of numbers, type, damage etc. they take zero damage.

Should there be a counter introduced irregardless of its...name?

Should there be a counter to Invulnerability? 79 votes

Yes, there should be skills that counter invulnerability
20%
King xiuras.3615Raiden The Beast.3016Zero.3871Hackuuna.4085leunamsil.6742Fueki.4753Suraci.1642Xervite.5493Only Even.6193Serenity.6304Briearios.8407Psycoprophet.8107Valar Dotalis.6409dronte.3416Draconious.2751Ralimisu.2946 16 votes
No, invulnerability should be as it is, full immunity
68%
santenal.1054Dahkeus.8243Trevor Boyer.6524runeblade.7514Stand The Wall.6987DeanBB.4268Undo.5091cgMatt.5162Sigmoid.7082Susy.7529Chaith.8256Kylden Ar.3724Xstein.2187Daishi.6027Sznurek.8791Vagrant.7206flog.3485Exedore.6320ArthurDent.9538Fat Disgrace.4275 54 votes
Others
11%
DonArkanio.6419DanAlcedo.3281Vancho.8750ROMANG.1903DoomNexus.5324Megametzler.5729Zenix.6198Doto.6357AceEtherius.9542 9 votes

Comments

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2019
    Yes, there should be skills that counter invulnerability

    Everything should have a counter other than simply not engaging as that 8s a counter to everything and anything lol

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭
    No, invulnerability should be as it is, full immunity

    Aren't there only five skills that grant invulnerable?
    Mist Form
    Obsidian Flesh
    Elixir S
    Renewed Focus
    Distortion

  • Mbelch.9028Mbelch.9028 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    Aren't there only five skills that grant invulnerable?
    Mist Form
    Obsidian Flesh
    Elixir S
    Renewed Focus
    Distortion

    There might be one or two others (I don't wanna say that's an exhaustive list) but why I respond to this is to agree and say: For all other forms of "invuln" have some counter. Whether it's by engineer's shield block & knock, shocking aura, necromancer marks, corruptions, ect.

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2019
    No, invulnerability should be as it is, full immunity

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    Invul should have a counter to itself baked in, like not being able to cast additional skills or becoming exhausted after using it for a specific amount of time.
    The pool of invuls across classes is too small to introduce invulnerability counters that people will run unless theyre trying to [insert class here] bust.

    This.

    Invuln should be a temporary reprieve, but it should limit what you can do heavily. Elixir S and Renewed Focus are examples of this.

    Or it should only be partial invuln, IE endure pain and signet of stone.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Invulnerability should never exist in any game with competitive pvp. It should never have been implemented in this game in the first place.

  • Zephoid.4263Zephoid.4263 Member ✭✭✭

    Heres the problem: While counters exist for evade and block, they aren't viable except when the skill is already powerful. You don't take anything that gives unblockable if it isn't for another viable aspect. No one takes the reaper shout that makes your attacks unblockable. All the viable counters to evade are area effect abilities and you don't take them except for their innate power. Usually they are tacked on to weapons or are defensive effects like retal.

    Block and evade aren't ubiquitous enough to try to create builds that are good against them. They are tacked on to abilities already. So effectively they are the same as invulnerable except vs a tiny subset of weapon skills. Vs power, invulnerable is no more problematic than long durations of either other effect.

    The problem comes with the change that invuln now prevents condi ticks. That made invuln skills such an absurd level above any other damage reduction effect that its not even comparable. Imo, revert that change. Distort or Elixer S should not make you immune to condi ticks. Both were already top teir damage mitigation skills, why were they buffed?

  • No, invulnerability should be as it is, full immunity

    Invul is ok, but it should be used in defensive scenarios and should make you take a defensive stance making you less effective in attack

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭

    I would rather they change skills that give invuln to have a shorter duration, then a lingering aftereffect that gives some sort of damage reduction bonus - maybe barrier?

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes, there should be skills that counter invulnerability

    I love how everyone rally's on about op skills and anets poor balancing yet are most in agreement that their invulnerability skill with no counter is completely fine lmao
    I imagine this surprises no one.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭
    No, invulnerability should be as it is, full immunity

    Invulnerable prevents capturing points.

    That's a fair drawback tbh.

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2019
    No, invulnerability should be as it is, full immunity

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    I love how everyone rally's on about op skills and anets poor balancing yet are most in agreement that their invulnerability skill with no counter is completely fine lmao
    I imagine this surprises no one.

    With invuln skills such as Elixir S or Renewed Focus, the counter is that neither side is able to do anything. They're just stalling.

    My problem with invulns are ones such as Obsidian Flesh, distortion, or the berserker stance/endure pain wombo combo. These allow you to attack/perform actions while invuln, which is supremely irritating. At least with the warrior wombo combo, it takes multiple utility slots to do.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    I love how everyone rally's on about op skills and anets poor balancing yet are most in agreement that their invulnerability skill with no counter is completely fine lmao
    I imagine this surprises no one.

    With invuln skills such as Elixir S or Renewed Focus, the counter is that neither side is able to do anything. They're just stalling.

    My problem with invulns are ones such as Obsidian Flesh, distortion, or the berserker stance/endure pain wombo combo. These allow you to attack/perform actions while invuln, which is supremely irritating. At least with the warrior wombo combo, it takes multiple utility slots to do.

    Renewed focus cant stomp/revive people, elixir S can(comes with a busted stealth skill on toolbelt). Mad about distortion that consume clones to extend duration or elementalist that need to be in earth as second element (assuming its weaver)? I find that very funny

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2019
    No, invulnerability should be as it is, full immunity

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    I love how everyone rally's on about op skills and anets poor balancing yet are most in agreement that their invulnerability skill with no counter is completely fine lmao
    I imagine this surprises no one.

    With invuln skills such as Elixir S or Renewed Focus, the counter is that neither side is able to do anything. They're just stalling.

    My problem with invulns are ones such as Obsidian Flesh, distortion, or the berserker stance/endure pain wombo combo. These allow you to attack/perform actions while invuln, which is supremely irritating. At least with the warrior wombo combo, it takes multiple utility slots to do.

    Renewed focus cant stomp/revive people, elixir S can(comes with a busted stealth skill on toolbelt). Mad about distortion that consume clones to extend duration or elementalist that need to be in earth as second element (assuming its weaver)? I find that very funny

    Distortion can stomp as well (free of any utility slot for mesmer), not sure why your criticism doesn't extend there either.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:
    Invulnerability should never exist in any game with competitive pvp. It should never have been implemented in this game in the first place.

    why?

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2019

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:
    Invulnerability should never exist in any game with competitive pvp. It should never have been implemented in this game in the first place.

    why?

    Invulnerability can be balanced, but instantaneous, on-demand, no-cost invulnerability just turns a game into cooldown whack-a-mole rather than two players attempting to truly best each other with strategy or timing. GW2 uses the latter profusely which is why the game is a joke.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Swagg.9236 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:
    Invulnerability should never exist in any game with competitive pvp. It should never have been implemented in this game in the first place.

    why?

    Invulnerability can be balanced, but on-demand, no-resource invulnerability just turns a game into cooldown whack-a-mole rather than two players attempting to truly best each other with strategy or timing. GW2 is the latter, and it's everywhere, which is why the game is a joke.

    i dont think its invulnerability specifically, but its combination with everything else.
    when i duel an ely on node and he just reflects for several secounds, then blocks, then evades, then he cleanses, then invul and back to blocks and reflects and I just leave the node to go have fun somewhere else. Same with almost all the classes, fight a warrior on node, he will try to kill you in 1s if he fails he will block/dodge/cleanse for 30s then hide behind a rock with SkIlLfUlL kItE then back to try the same thing.

  • Tycura.1982Tycura.1982 Member ✭✭✭
    No, invulnerability should be as it is, full immunity

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    Aren't there only five skills that grant invulnerable?
    Mist Form
    Obsidian Flesh
    Elixir S
    Renewed Focus
    Distortion

    3/5 of those you can't attack from either.

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No, invulnerability should be as it is, full immunity

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    Aren't there only five skills that grant invulnerable?
    Mist Form
    Obsidian Flesh
    Elixir S
    Renewed Focus
    Distortion

    There's one more, it's on ele as well and it's called Fortify.
    The reason you don't see it used is it's in Conjure Earth Shield.

  • No, invulnerability should be as it is, full immunity

    waiting that the skill is off is a good counter to Invulnerability ...

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No, invulnerability should be as it is, full immunity

    To be fair, ele is the squishiest class, and obsidian flesh is on a weapon that has nearly 0 damage and healing. It can be annoying to waste your burst on it, but you can also turn those 3s of defensive posture to your avantage. Rare are those who use it offensively.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No, invulnerability should be as it is, full immunity

    Invulnerability is counter to damage. We do not need a counter for a counter. If invulnerability is an issue (I do not think it is) then reduce its availability. And that goes for everything. This is how the game became spam wars instead of guild wars (looking at you unblocable damage, boon spam and boon rip).

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 16, 2019

    @Swagg.9236 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:
    Invulnerability should never exist in any game with competitive pvp. It should never have been implemented in this game in the first place.

    why?

    Invulnerability can be balanced, but instantaneous, on-demand, no-cost invulnerability just turns a game into cooldown whack-a-mole rather than two players attempting to truly best each other with strategy or timing. GW2 uses the latter profusely which is why the game is a joke.

    Its not two players attempting to truly best each other with strategy or timing.
    Its a 5v5 or 2v2, for control of points, and during the span of the match any of those actors can be outnumbered. Invuln has application for stalling for support or retreating from an unwinnable situation, and that adds complexity to the game.

    Dont forget you can always be +1ed if you pvp. Anet is pushing team play and strategy, not honor duels.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • Dahkeus.8243Dahkeus.8243 Member ✭✭✭
    No, invulnerability should be as it is, full immunity

    I voted no because I don't think that invuln needs a counter, but there should still be limits. Renewed Focus is a good example because it's on a long cooldown, only has a short 3 second duration, and doesn't allow point capture, and since it's a channel, you can't perform any other actions.

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 16, 2019
    No, invulnerability should be as it is, full immunity

    Saying there are counter options like unblockable vs blocks, doesn’t really matter for classes that don’t have significantly strong unblockable options. It might as well be an extended dodge to them. To me direct counter play is a bit of a moot point. 1 second of a defensive cooldown although technically not equal, is close enough to be on par when the large portion of skills are indiscriminate between a block, evade, invuln.

    But if we are talking about direct counters, in the cases where they enemy is locked an animation you simply have to stow and not attack, wasting their (usually lengthy) cooldown. If it requires a heavy use of a resource on top of a big cooldown regardless, of if it locks you into an animation or not; that can be an equal trade when playing smart, and understand what options an opponent does or doesn’t have.

  • Airdive.2613Airdive.2613 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No, invulnerability should be as it is, full immunity

    Standing on the node is a counter to invulnerability.

  • Yes, there should be skills that counter invulnerability

    @Tycura.1982 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    Aren't there only five skills that grant invulnerable?
    Mist Form
    Obsidian Flesh
    Elixir S
    Renewed Focus
    Distortion

    3/5 of those you can't attack from either.

    You can be immobilized while in Mist Form unlike elixir S even though they basically do the same thing.

  • Koen.1327Koen.1327 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 16, 2019

    the trade-off is that you can't contest

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    Aren't there only five skills that grant invulnerable?
    Mist Form
    Obsidian Flesh
    Elixir S
    Renewed Focus
    Distortion

    There's one more, it's on ele as well and it's called Fortify.
    The reason you don't see it used is it's in Conjure Earth Shield.

    elixir of heroes from pig pet is another hidden one

  • Clownmug.8357Clownmug.8357 Member ✭✭✭
    No, invulnerability should be as it is, full immunity

    Invulnerable means invulnerable.

  • DoomNexus.5324DoomNexus.5324 Member ✭✭✭
    Others

    Imo invulnerability should just be removed from the game or at the very least from PvP modes and be replaced by like an evade or something. Being completely unsuceptible to everything including CCs and condi damage should just not be a thing in a pvp environment imo.
    The amount of blocks, evades, invuls etc is too much anyway. Should get an overhaul..

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 16, 2019

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Swagg.9236 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:
    Invulnerability should never exist in any game with competitive pvp. It should never have been implemented in this game in the first place.

    why?

    Invulnerability can be balanced, but on-demand, no-resource invulnerability just turns a game into cooldown whack-a-mole rather than two players attempting to truly best each other with strategy or timing. GW2 is the latter, and it's everywhere, which is why the game is a joke.

    i dont think its invulnerability specifically, but its combination with everything else.
    when i duel an ely on node and he just reflects for several secounds, then blocks, then evades, then he cleanses, then invul and back to blocks and reflects and I just leave the node to go have fun somewhere else. Same with almost all the classes, fight a warrior on node, he will try to kill you in 1s if he fails he will block/dodge/cleanse for 30s then hide behind a rock with SkIlLfUlL kItE then back to try the same thing.

    Yes, I typically classify every example of perfect damage negation as "invulnerability" when it comes to GW2. Yes, there are typically very mild differences among them (i.e. block can be bypassed by "unblockable" attacks and evading targets can still "run into" ward walls), but such differences are so minute when it comes to GW2 PvP interactions, that they might as well not really mean anything. In fact, they are so minute that they often go undiscussed or unknown to the point which I CONSTANTLY see Thieves doing Daggerstorm into Static Field or other enemies attempting to evade through Unsteady Ground. It is very, very rare that I see anyone attempt to actively avoid ward walls in PvP (mainly because they are so scarce). When it comes to bypassing block with unblockable attacks, unblockable attacks themselves are so arbitrarily allotted among the classes, that typically whenever anyone employs an unblockable attack, it's mostly entirely out of coincidence; the person using an unblockable attack probably only has it because that unblockable skill does something of more value in the first place (i.e. instant damage, grants damage negation, something else generic and overpowered).

    When all of this garbage is piled together into every build that shows up in GW2 PvP, it turns the game into cooldown whack-a-mole which indeed works out to what you described at the end of your post. That's mostly why GW2 PvP is so uncompelling; there is no risk/reward. Players only go on the offensive when they are insulated from risk.

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:
    Invulnerability is counter to damage. We do not need a counter for a counter. If invulnerability is an issue (I do not think it is) then reduce its availability. And that goes for everything. This is how the game became spam wars instead of guild wars (looking at you unblocable damage, boon spam and boon rip).

    Dodging is the counter to damage.

  • No, invulnerability should be as it is, full immunity

    I mean, true invulnerability is pretty rare to begin with.

    And where it does exist; it comes with stipulations, such as not being able to attack and not giving capture point contribution. At the most, i'd say no skill that gives invulnerability should also allow someone to attack at once, otherwise it's totally fine imo.

    Remove Ranked DuoQ pls&ty

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Swagg.9236 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    Invulnerability is counter to damage. We do not need a counter for a counter. If invulnerability is an issue (I do not think it is) then reduce its availability. And that goes for everything. This is how the game became spam wars instead of guild wars (looking at you unblocable damage, boon spam and boon rip).

    Dodging is the counter to damage.

    dodging is counter to being hit, when you have damage over times ( conditions on you ) you still take damage while dodging.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    small note: block/absorb/reflect = unblockable.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭
    Others

    Like many said, i dislike that most invulnerability skills let you do what ever you want and go ham and just kill people, basically i win button the opponent can't do anything about it. Even elixir S annoys me since you can ress and stomp in it. The best and most balanced invulnerability is Renewed Focus you get a to reset yourself and not kill anyone while casting it.

  • No, invulnerability should be as it is, full immunity

    If we start countering invulnerability, then I want a counter to teleportation too.

  • Tycura.1982Tycura.1982 Member ✭✭✭
    No, invulnerability should be as it is, full immunity

    @Elmo Benchwarmer.3025 said:
    If we start countering invulnerability, then I want a counter to teleportation too.

    Tether?

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tycura.1982 said:

    @Elmo Benchwarmer.3025 said:
    If we start countering invulnerability, then I want a counter to teleportation too.

    Tether?

    • there is some ability from necro? or scourge that whenever i tried to blink it wouldnt do anything and go on cooldown, might be a bug tho.
  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Others

    What I'd like to see: When a player uses invulnerability, the duration should be as long as decapping the point needs. So you really really have to think about when to use it. Be it by extending the duration ever so slightly or reducing the decap time a little.

    One could discuss changing the invulnerability skills to not allow damaging. This would also make mirage dodge more unique. But I wouldn't know how to change Distortion to keep the balance, and neither Obsidian Flesh on ele focus. Ele focus would need some other ability to deal damage - make it 50% less damage and stab or something like this? Not sure about that, just spontaneous thoughts.

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