The biggest problem Guild Wars 2 will face... — Guild Wars 2 Forums

The biggest problem Guild Wars 2 will face...

I wrote this as a comment to already to another thread...after writing i realized how important it is for me to just say it, to the PVE population in general. i read through a few other threads that seem to touch on this, but not really getting the full picture and the extent to which how bad this problem has/is and will be for gw2.

The Problem
This game is too self-sufficient, and there is a lack of community interaction.

Go right now to any PVE zone.
How many people are engaging and talking with each other? I've been sitting in Queensdale/Shaemoor for a good 30 minutes now and not a SINGLE person in either Map Chat or Say
chat has said anything...This is supposed to be the HUMAN starter zone.

So what is the deal?
Why is everyone so quiet? The maps are full they have people in them...but nobody is talking. Why does this bother me so much? It's because there's no reason for people to talk to each other...there's absolutely no mechanisms in place to encourage player to player interaction.

1) Questing
Questing is so braindead simple in these zones, that there is no need for anyone to go out and find groups of people. And when there are groupings of people, like near bosses, the bosses are so braindead simple to beat, that you can just auto-attack them and they will eventually die. There's no need to discuss tactics, strategies, or trouble shoot problems, or solve puzzles...

2) Crafting...
where do i start with this absolute monstrosity of a system. Crafting is too self contained and self sufficient. If you want to make something with crafting, you need the materials to craft that something, which you must either farm or purchase from the T.P. The only interaction you have is with an autonomous spreadsheet. There is no OTHER players involved in this transaction... Even worse if the material you are looking for is exclusive to a certain profession, so lets say you are a Tailor, and you need to get a material that is exclusive item to Leather-working, to craft something in the Tailor proffession. Then you need to not only be a tailor but you now need to learn leatherworking. HOW DOES THIS MAKE ANY SENSE AND WHY IS NOBODY UPSET BY THIS? It's the dumbest thing i've ever encountered and it doesn't seem to bother anyone...Everyone says "Oh just learn all 8 proffessions and you'll be good" but no...this is not good. This is me punching buttons into a keyboard and crunching numbers endlessly at a crafting station by myself. This is not interactive or fun in anyway.

3) Lack of PvP interaction in PVE
This is actually a "hot topic of debate." and a back and forth battle between PVE'ers and PVP'ers. What people don't realize is that dueling zones are actually really important to building communities and serve as a critical mechanism that introduces newer players into content that they would have otherwise been clueless about.
The main argument against this is that PVE'ers will be "ganked" while doing PVE activities...but this is simply a misguided view on what dueling areas actually are. Dueling areas are specific zones within a town, in which duels can only happen when two players agree to fight one another.
These area's serve as a location in which players are drawn toward... much like how the concentration of player population in Lions arch are around the Banker, or the Black Lion Auction NPC. These are places where players congregate. Dueling areas are such places, but rather than everyone crowding by an npc to watch a spreadsheet and punch numbers...players gather to watch other players fight each other. One does not need to go far to actually SEE this interaction in action. Visiting a duel server you will see players congregating in small circles to watch other duelists duel each other. People talking, chatting and having fun while 2 people try to best one another. PEople who have never been to a duel server simply don't understand how refreshing a duel server is, and people who want dueling areas in PVE want to spread this sense of community to others. PVP as we all know is DYING and yes, there are PVPer's who still want to play and have fun too.

Anyway, these are just three examples in which the game lacks any sort of community interaction. This lack of interaction has handicapped gw2 since launch, and it has continued to weaken guild wars 2, in all areas both PVE and PVP, to the point to where we see it today...
Truth is, the game is currently in a crisis...a tipping point...we are not sure if we will even see the end of the GW2 storyline...we don't know the future of Spvp or WvW....people are quiting left and right and anet is getting roasted by every single commentor on the forums. All these things are just side effects...side effects to one singular tumor of issues that deal with the basic fundamental mechanics of the game....lack of community interaction and too much self sufficiency.

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Comments

  • Luthan.5236Luthan.5236 Member ✭✭✭

    The biggest problem: WoW. And there are no streamers at twitch.tv
    ...
    oh wait, that were some of the other threads constantly gotten created those last few weeks. :D

    As for chatting/talking: That happens only in cities (Lion's Arch where all the players gather) or in maps with major important events. (Where players go to farm or in hope of a rare item drop. Then only about the event or when timed world boss befor it starts some normal talking.)

    People usually want to play not chat - when outside of the safe city.
    I'd agree on some duel like sections seperated from the other sections of the map - but set in a PvE map. (No full map PvP.) Could be fun to watch others which is not that easy in the "real" PvP and when need to play yourself to be actuall in the match and see others.

    Crafting is really boring and I don't even see it as an important aspect of the game because of that. Only for getting stuff you can't buy (bound). (Which I'd prefer over stuff you can just buy with gems on the gem store. These things are boring and everyone can get them and you see a lot of people with skins that seem expensive/bought with gems.)

    For questiong: I still only play core game without expansions and don't know about the later maps from expansions: I liked the meta events in orr and in silverwastes. Better would be if there were meta events that required coordination. What comes to my mind is triple trouble. And a bit the Boss Blitz atm. I'd prefer some bigger event chain not focused just on killing a boss like Triple Trouble. Some capping and holding in PvE where players need tos split. Not too easy where you could just take tons of players that spam their skill 1. (Clever/intelligent upscaling maybe.) I liked the event in dry top where for achievement no item must get stolen. (Defens event killing skrits.) Something like this on bigger scale could be fun - requiring crowd control instead of standing at one location dps-ing while at the other location some mob comes to steal something.

  • Bloodstealer.5978Bloodstealer.5978 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Firstly.. starter zones 7yrs in on an MMO are never really the place to strike up conversation as the maps are rarely full and those on them are skirting over stuff to do daily or some quick levelling ora collection item..
    Queensdale actually had the reverse issue years back, it was always full due to high level players running a champ train that often turned toxic on newer players either not wanting to be forced to run a certain way or were blamed for messing up the train's perceived ownership of the map event rotations.
    Secondly duelling already exits in the game.. guilds can duel in their own arena, the mists now has its own duelling area and yes you can hit the pvp lists and go do ya thing, you can even go WvW and duel. Openworld PvP is always contentious in a pVe centric MMO due to the issues that come along with it.. toxicity, ganking and plain old ruining of other players fun. Sure you can have an opt in function, but really what's the point when you can simply go duel in a designated place.
    In a few of the MMO's I have played which have incorporated openworld PvP, its created either gankcentral at spawn points, low level ganktards or just dead zones where no one rarely goes except to get across a map area asap... so I say nah to this in GW2.
    Many MMO's have tried to push specific server types.. RP servers.. and PvP servers where everyone is fair game everywhere.. guess what they become empty servers fast and are often closed and merged back to PvE.

    Crafting... no idea what your on about with this.. most crafting GW2 has cross overs where certain professions can craft other profession refinements and you have the ability to learn 3+ professions on a toon.. why is this a bad thing. That like saying my local McDonalds can make me a nice Armani suit.
    As for interaction with others.. you can trade with others, you have guild and friends lists in order to work towards your crafting goals... so again no idea what you think is missing. GW2 has probably one of the easiest crafting systems I have come across tbh.

    Life is what YOU make it... NOT what others tell you!

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 17, 2019

    @Ben K.6238 said:
    It might lack community interaction in a few specific areas, but "any sort of" is woefully inaccurate. Try the endgame zones with group content.

    So everyone here is saying pretty much the same thing. So i'm going to extract just a quote from you, and my response will apply to all the above posts others have also made.

    The exact sentence, that the community lacks interaction in "specific" area's and that endgame zone's do have interaction, is simply overlooking the problem. The lack of interaction is still there, because those fundamental constituents that make up the problem are still there. Anet has in the past addressed community interaction issues, by adding more complex mechanics into endgame content...which yes, is a start to improving the interaction and setting up community.

    When the meta events are off or are building up? back down to no interaction...or at the very least minimal interaction, with the norm being that people are mostly asking questions about "Where do i go to find this?" or "How do i complete so and so quest?" These are interactions...but this is a far stretch from what REAL community interaction can potentially be...

    Allow me to go back to Guild Wars 1. Albiet, some people here may not have played...But i will say that GW1 had EXCELLENT community interaction...I'll give you an example.

    Remember runs? When a player known as a runner would run from one location on the world map to another, and up to 7 other players would pay that runner so that they could gain that location for fast travel. This is one of those expierences where you easily talked to others to pass the time while the runner(s) would do their job and alot of the times it was good and sometimes the runner would have a tough time... sometimes you'd make friends and sometimes just acquaint. The point is that these situations involved others that provoked the need for community interaction...without having to enforce it upon you (You could stay totally quiet during a run if you wanted...)

    Looking back on this sort of behavior now, we take a lot of the things we have today for granted...like Waypoints. Waypoints essentially made running a non-thing, and we can fast travel anywhere...bypassing locations without a second thought...which leads to more concentrations of players on Places of interests, like Banks, BLCT's, or other NPC's because it takes less time and physicality to get from point A to point B. So again in other words, it's like....you could have met someone in transit from point A to Point B...but because you travel instantly from point A to point B, you would never have met that someone in transit. The interaction simply just doesn't happen because there's never an opportunity for it to do so.

    @Ben K.6238 said:
    Or WvW. Or PvP. Or fractals and raids. If you're only looking in soloable areas, it's not surprising you're not finding much community interaction.

    And like i said above, this right here is the problem. The problem only obfuscates as you near closer to endgame content...but the problem is still there. Personally i am a veteran WvW and Pvper. The interaction there is MUCH more than any of the PVE areas, which i'm not surprised about (Remember when i talked about dueling servers?)

    But as we all know both of these game modes are dying...WvW is dying much slower than spvp, but both are generally on a downward path. People are simply leaving because Anet neglects the two game modes...when i believe that Anet has a lot to learn from them.

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The combat system can make casual chat difficult (for me at least). Dont get me wrong, I love the core combat mechanics here, but the need for constant or rapid player input can make text chatting difficult.

    Also, voice chat is pretty popular these days.

  • Vieux P.1238Vieux P.1238 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 17, 2019

    @Hashberry.4510 said:
    Problems from your perspective. These are features to me. This game has its niche, and many of us like it that way.

    Well.... your niche game has not that many of US playing to keep what ever content thrown in it alive.
    If your thing is playing with bots, unrepeatable content & boring broken pvp , then this game is right for you.
    If your game is an actual mmo where you get down & dirty & play with other players, well don't play a niche game.

    Winter Nerf is coming!

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Do your little experiment in any level 80 zone and be blown away by people running past you and map chat being active. Alternatively squad chat, maybe even /say. Starter zones aren't very representative. People who have already played the game will just have Tomes to level characters and can go into a different zone right away.

    Bite me.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vieux P.1238 said:

    @Hashberry.4510 said:
    Problems from your perspective. These are features to me. This game has its niche, and many of us like it that way.

    Well.... your niche game has not that many of US playing to keep what ever content thrown in it alive.
    If your thing is playing with bots, unrepeatable content & boring broken pvp , then this game is right for you.
    If your game is an actual mmo where you get down & dirty & play with other players, well don't play a niche game.

    Obviously it does have enough to keep it alive.
    Your second sentence refers to im assuming only competitive content. As someone who doenst like PVP, neither of those aspects and how they function matter to me outside of when i need items from there and i literally dont want to interact with anybody in those environments.
    I talk to players all the time, just not in map chat, depends on the time of day you play and what zone you are in.

    Amana Silentchild; My Main
    Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
    Why GW is Called Guildwars

  • Ultramex.1506Ultramex.1506 Member ✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    This is actually a "hot topic of debate." and a back and forth battle between PVE'ers and PVP'ers. What people don't realize is that dueling zones are actually really important to building communities and serve as a critical mechanism that introduces newer players into content that they would have otherwise been clueless about.
    The main argument against this is that PVE'ers will be "ganked" while doing PVE activities...but this is simply a misguided view on what dueling areas actually are. Dueling areas are specific zones within a town, in which duels can only happen when two players agree to fight one another.
    These area's serve as a location in which players are drawn toward... much like how the concentration of player population in Lions arch are around the Banker, or the Black Lion Auction NPC. These are places where players congregate. Dueling areas are such places, but rather than everyone crowding by an npc to watch a spreadsheet and punch numbers...players gather to watch other players fight each other. One does not need to go far to actually SEE this interaction in action. Visiting a duel server you will see players congregating in small circles to watch other duelists duel each other. People talking, chatting and having fun while 2 people try to best one another. PEople who have never been to a duel server simply don't understand how refreshing a duel server is, and people who want dueling areas in PVE want to spread this sense of community to others. PVP as we all know is DYING and yes, there are PVPer's who still want to play and have fun too.

    The only problem i see here is people can't accept no. Why can't you just ask Anet to improve PvP/WvW instead? As if Open World PvP won't end up like PvP/WvW

  • Ben K.6238Ben K.6238 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Ben K.6238 said:
    It might lack community interaction in a few specific areas, but "any sort of" is woefully inaccurate. Try the endgame zones with group content.

    So everyone here is saying pretty much the same thing. So i'm going to extract just a quote from you, and my response will apply to all the above posts others have also made.

    The exact sentence, that the community lacks interaction in "specific" area's and that endgame zone's do have interaction, is simply overlooking the problem. The lack of interaction is still there, because those fundamental constituents that make up the problem are still there. Anet has in the past addressed community interaction issues, by adding more complex mechanics into endgame content...which yes, is a start to improving the interaction and setting up community.

    When the meta events are off or are building up? back down to no interaction...or at the very least minimal interaction, with the norm being that people are mostly asking questions about "Where do i go to find this?" or "How do i complete so and so quest?" These are interactions...but this is a far stretch from what REAL community interaction can potentially be...

    Yes, there are parts in the game where there is no community interaction. This is not, in itself, a bad thing, as there might be places where people don't want to be interacting with a community. It's quite common for modern MMOs to cater to people who enjoy some solo content as well as the group stuff.

    Allow me to go back to Guild Wars 1. Albiet, some people here may not have played...But i will say that GW1 had EXCELLENT community interaction...I'll give you an example.

    Remember runs? When a player known as a runner would run from one location on the world map to another, and up to 7 other players would pay that runner so that they could gain that location for fast travel. This is one of those expierences where you easily talked to others to pass the time while the runner(s) would do their job and alot of the times it was good and sometimes the runner would have a tough time... sometimes you'd make friends and sometimes just acquaint. The point is that these situations involved others that provoked the need for community interaction...without having to enforce it upon you (You could stay totally quiet during a run if you wanted...)

    Yeah, I played a bit of GW1 (if completing GWAMM qualifies as "a bit"). I deliberately avoided community interaction for most of it because it got annoying when someone would invariably go AFK halfway through UW, dungeons etc. and I enjoyed the challenge of setting up heroes and henchmen to complete content they were not designed for.

    If you wanted to play GW1 with a group, it was (once) a good place to do so. If you wanted to play it solo, you could still complete all but a tiny portion of the content that way, without ever interacting with another human. GW2 actually has much more content you have to do with a group than GW1 did. But GW2 is also much better at facilitating it, because you can bump into other people out in the open world.

  • Naxos.2503Naxos.2503 Member ✭✭✭

    I honestly prefer that to what it used to be and sometime still is, which is childish trolling in the map chat.

    When I see a newcomer go into too high a level area, I whisper to them and tell them they're in an area too strong for their level. I dont shout it on all rooftops. I much rather whisper when I need to talk to a specific player. The map chat is good for two things : Questions, announcement. When it's used for Something else, it's generally trolling/arguments. I use the Say chat to say Thank you when someone give me a hand, and occasionally to start a conversation based on that, most of the time, that conversation ends in Whispers, because I dont like people butting in. There is Nothing worse than trying to explain Something without someone else going right ahead and bulldoze your explanation because they think They know the right way to play, and there are none others.

    Most players also chat within their party and within their guilds. There is communication. You just dont often see it, which in my opinion is not a bad thing. Even when Words arent used, doesn't mean there isn't communication and teamwork. I sometime use my deadeye to tail a newcomer who has difficulties fighting, and jump in the combat if I see it going South. Sometime I get thank yous, sometime I get /waves.

    I'll agree that there is often no need for communication within that game, mostly because the teamwork is almost Natural : If you see a player down, within seconds you've got 5 players trying to res them. If someone is having difficulties in combat, it's not uncommon for another player to jump in, buff or heal that player. Without a prompt. Because contrary to other games, there is no downside for Anybody involved. They're not kill stealing, they're not ninja looting. They're helping, because they want to help. And if you pay attention to that factor alone, you'll notice that the Community is extremely helpful, or atleast is quite used to helping without being prompted to. I'd argue that's better than a game where you ask for help, and potentially receive none.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 17, 2019

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Allow me to go back to Guild Wars 1. Albiet, some people here may not have played...But i will say that GW1 had EXCELLENT community interaction...I'll give you an example.

    The single player game had excellent community interaction?

  • trixantea.1230trixantea.1230 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 17, 2019

    As a WoW player, I can clearly understand what you've said about crafting and world PvP but aside fom adding 1v1 dueling areas I don't expect Anet to make such drastic changes and spend too much effort/money on a game that is already in decline.

    "Questing" on the other hand becomes better in lvl 80 zones especially when you play HoT meta and PoF bounties. These events can bring players to communicate and cooperate a little bit more. It is not as good as some other MMORPGs but it is still worth playing. Just try to enjoy what's good about the game and if you think that GW2 does not offer what you're looking for you can give WoW classic a try when it comes out.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭

    I guess the OP hasn't been in WvW, PVP lobby or Before World boss spawns there is down time there and people use the chat. GW2 is action oriented and you press buttons constantly so no time to chat. Also people get their nickers in a bunch too easily and you can't kitten post in chat so it is relegated to Guild chats. The closest thing to the Barrens chat in GW2 is the PVP lobby.

  • Knighthonor.4061Knighthonor.4061 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Nobody talks because of risk of Map Suppression

  • Rasimir.6239Rasimir.6239 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    The Problem
    This game is too self-sufficient, and there is a lack of community interaction.

    Funny, I interact with people all the time. Sometimes there is so much interaction going on that I have to bow out of one or the other interaction/conversation/channel because it's overwhelming.

    P2P-trading, forced grouping, or open world PvP aren't community interaction. They are simply forcing competition and different people's playstyles on others. Fortunately, this game doesn't force you but rather gives you the freedom to interact as much or as little as you want.

    If you can't build a circle of friends and aquaintances that interact with each other in a way you enjoy, that's on you, not the game. The game offers all the tools, the choice to use them (or not) is yours and everybody else's.

  • Ben K.6238Ben K.6238 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Knighthonor.4061 said:
    Nobody talks because of risk of Map Suppression

    Uh... no. Getting suppressed is pretty rare if you're not spamming chat.

    The ones who get suppressed and don't understand why are also the ones I'm most thankful are being suppressed, because it means I don't have to block them myself.

  • Knighthonor.4061Knighthonor.4061 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ben K.6238 said:

    @Knighthonor.4061 said:
    Nobody talks because of risk of Map Suppression

    Uh... no. Getting suppressed is pretty rare if you're not spamming chat.

    The ones who get suppressed and don't understand why are also the ones I'm most thankful are being suppressed, because it means I don't have to block them myself.

    well I have to disagree

  • Omernon.9762Omernon.9762 Member ✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    I wrote this as a comment to already to another thread...after writing i realized how important it is for me to just say it, to the PVE population in general. i read through a few other threads that seem to touch on this, but not really getting the full picture and the extent to which how bad this problem has/is and will be for gw2.

    The Problem
    This game is too self-sufficient, and there is a lack of community interaction.

    Go right now to any PVE zone.
    How many people are engaging and talking with each other? I've been sitting in Queensdale/Shaemoor for a good 30 minutes now and not a SINGLE person in either Map Chat or Say
    chat has said anything...This is supposed to be the HUMAN starter zone.

    So what is the deal?
    Why is everyone so quiet? The maps are full they have people in them...but nobody is talking. Why does this bother me so much? It's because there's no reason for people to talk to each other...there's absolutely no mechanisms in place to encourage player to player interaction.

    1) Questing
    Questing is so braindead simple in these zones, that there is no need for anyone to go out and find groups of people. And when there are groupings of people, like near bosses, the bosses are so braindead simple to beat, that you can just auto-attack them and they will eventually die. There's no need to discuss tactics, strategies, or trouble shoot problems, or solve puzzles...

    2) Crafting...
    where do i start with this absolute monstrosity of a system. Crafting is too self contained and self sufficient. If you want to make something with crafting, you need the materials to craft that something, which you must either farm or purchase from the T.P. The only interaction you have is with an autonomous spreadsheet. There is no OTHER players involved in this transaction... Even worse if the material you are looking for is exclusive to a certain profession, so lets say you are a Tailor, and you need to get a material that is exclusive item to Leather-working, to craft something in the Tailor proffession. Then you need to not only be a tailor but you now need to learn leatherworking. HOW DOES THIS MAKE ANY SENSE AND WHY IS NOBODY UPSET BY THIS? It's the dumbest thing i've ever encountered and it doesn't seem to bother anyone...Everyone says "Oh just learn all 8 proffessions and you'll be good" but no...this is not good. This is me punching buttons into a keyboard and crunching numbers endlessly at a crafting station by myself. This is not interactive or fun in anyway.

    3) Lack of PvP interaction in PVE
    This is actually a "hot topic of debate." and a back and forth battle between PVE'ers and PVP'ers. What people don't realize is that dueling zones are actually really important to building communities and serve as a critical mechanism that introduces newer players into content that they would have otherwise been clueless about.
    The main argument against this is that PVE'ers will be "ganked" while doing PVE activities...but this is simply a misguided view on what dueling areas actually are. Dueling areas are specific zones within a town, in which duels can only happen when two players agree to fight one another.
    These area's serve as a location in which players are drawn toward... much like how the concentration of player population in Lions arch are around the Banker, or the Black Lion Auction NPC. These are places where players congregate. Dueling areas are such places, but rather than everyone crowding by an npc to watch a spreadsheet and punch numbers...players gather to watch other players fight each other. One does not need to go far to actually SEE this interaction in action. Visiting a duel server you will see players congregating in small circles to watch other duelists duel each other. People talking, chatting and having fun while 2 people try to best one another. PEople who have never been to a duel server simply don't understand how refreshing a duel server is, and people who want dueling areas in PVE want to spread this sense of community to others. PVP as we all know is DYING and yes, there are PVPer's who still want to play and have fun too.

    Anyway, these are just three examples in which the game lacks any sort of community interaction. This lack of interaction has handicapped gw2 since launch, and it has continued to weaken guild wars 2, in all areas both PVE and PVP, to the point to where we see it today...
    Truth is, the game is currently in a crisis...a tipping point...we are not sure if we will even see the end of the GW2 storyline...we don't know the future of Spvp or WvW....people are quiting left and right and anet is getting roasted by every single commentor on the forums. All these things are just side effects...side effects to one singular tumor of issues that deal with the basic fundamental mechanics of the game....lack of community interaction and too much self sufficiency.

    Sounds like classic World of Warcraft is just the game for you.

    Guild Wars 2 had been created this way on purpose. It didn’t wanted to be Yet Another WoW-Clone and all of the “problems” you’ve mentioned had been here since the very beginning. I’m really surprised you just now came to criticize it, when the game was like this since beta and many still enjoy the way the game was made. The thing is... there are people who don’t like Open World PvP. And those that do, can enjoy duels in WvW or sPvP (there is big arena in the mists or even dedicated custom maps in the lobby section).

    Just yesterday I’ve joined a random talk in DR, that turned into costume brawl, then into musician parade and at the end into fight in PvP arena in the Mists. Every time I go to Queensdale crossroads near the Inn in Shaemoor there are people doing some fun kitten together and messing around (and so is DR plaza by the fountain - a hotspot for social activities). It really is not that hard to socialize with other players in this game. Maybe start with talking to people...?

    One more thing about group play. It’s fun as long as you can find people. This was an issue back in Vanilla WoW - early on it was easy to do group quests, with all people leveling at the same time, but year later after the release (not to mention during TBC and WotLK era) you usually had to ask higher level players to clear this content for you and there was nothing fun about this - no challenge, no fun.

    I like how maps are thriving with activity in GW and how you can affect the world regardless if you’re alone or in the group, through completion of events. I also prefer Core Tyria events over map-wide meta events introduced and practiced since the release of HoT, because there was more small-scale chain events that were dynamically changing situation around the map (some settlements were falling, in other spots there was player-lead invasion etc.).

    Anyway, the list of problems you’ve made would have had more sense on WoW’s forums, because this is what that game was before it turned into dungeon/raid queue simulator that it is now. GW2 on the other hand was always focused more on single player experience with cool & flashy combat, lack of trinity etc. You can’t have holy trinity with how arcadish the combat is and without trinity you can’t really have truely immersive group play. I, for one, am glad that Guild Wars 2 is what it is.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Be careful what you want, if you see the pvp or wvw chat, you will rethink the desire to see the pve chat busy.

    "It's a testament to the folly of the humans and their gods. They say Arah was sacred, but all I see is one big dragon nest."(Rytlock Brimstone)

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 17, 2019

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    And while I happened to love bartering, many people do not. The only reason that P2P trading existed is that there was no other non-farming source for huge varieties of needed goods. People who understood the markets made plat in droves; people who didn't ... gave up plat in droves. On the whole, P2P trading is a zero-sum PvP game, not "community interaction."

    You are saying it's not community interaction but that's completely false. Let me define community interaction:

    Let's say you have a girlfriend... and let's say you have the option to either

    • A- Text a girl you like; saying you love her.
    • B- Meet the girl in person; saying you love her.

    You can tell which one is interaction right? They are both interactions...but one is devoid of physicality...i shouldn't have to tell you which one FEELS better...but it's definetly the 2nd one. Compare the above example to this example.

    Let's say you need advise because your lost. and let's say you have the option to either...

    • A- Ask for advise in map chat.
    • B- Meeting some stranger (Player Z) along the road, asking them for advise.

    Now tell me...which one is more interactive? Which one is more likely to garner a response? Which one is more likely to give you the potential to gain a new friend? If your wondering why, it's because of the same reason as the above example. The physicality or "face to face" interaction with another player gives the opportunity of confrontation, for a more MEANINGFUL experience. This confrontation isn't forced...it just arises more often.

    This issue is very much similar to the IRL issues of today's technological generation...We are sitting behind computer screens and systems that automatize our experiences with other people. And what do you expect when you click on an article to read and 20 ads appear and pop in your face saying SUBSCRIBE TO OUR NEWSLETTER and you instantly just click off because the experience lacked any sort of meaning. Autonomy...sounds very similar to the Black Lion Trading Company NPC don't you think?

    The reason it's so difficult for people to notice that these things are a problem is because humans NATURALLY try to be as efficient as possible. We are scientific creatures that will always try to advance...which is why we strive for full autonomy...This is what waypoints do...The Black Lion Trading Company...Mounts. These are all systems that strive to automatize our experiences. But there are consequences to all these things. consequences for waypoints? Emptier maps. BLTC? razor thin profit margins. Mounts? Again, emptier maps.

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Allow me to go back to Guild Wars 1. ... GW1 had EXCELLENT community interaction...

    Of all the examples to use, this was probably the worst. GW1 had much, much less community interaction than GW2 does if you compare them at similar periods.

    GW1 launched in 2005; it's sole "expansion" (as opposed to "campaign") dropped in 2007. Three years into GW1, people were running 3 hero/4 hench teams everywhere, except the underworld and a few HM dungeons. "Drok's Run" and similar skips weren't "community interaction;" they were one-time transactions that allowed people to bypass gates.

    I don't know what you mean by "Bypass gates" This is completely wrong. It was so that you could fast travel from one place to another. (From say Ascalon City, to Lions Arch) and you would collect all the way points in between. You say they aren't community interaction....but that's also wrong. It was 100% community driven behavior...and from it came player to player interaction. It was very common for people to talk during these runs, and make friends.

  • Trise.2865Trise.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 17, 2019

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Let's say you need advise because your lost. and let's say you have the option to either...

    • A- Ask for advise in map chat.
    • B- Meeting some stranger (Player Z) along the road, asking them for advise.

    Now tell me...which one is more interactive? Which one is more likely to garner a response? Which one is more likely to give you the potential to gain a new friend?

    Neither. They're both text messages asking strangers in the area for advice. This, by the way, is the actual difference between Map chat and Local chat.

    As to the rest of this post: Do yourself a favor and plan a nice vacation to a PAX or SDCC or gamescon, or whatever is most convenient for you. I've met tons of new friends who play GW2 there. It's literally what gaming conventions are for.

    If we want ANet to step up their game, then we must step up ours.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    I don't know what you mean by "Bypass gates"

    I think this was referring to getting to LA in GW1 being gated behind passing through Lornar's Pass. Not many did this solo; rather, they found runners and paid for the trip.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Tarlonniel.6534Tarlonniel.6534 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 17, 2019

    I'm all for going back to how things were in GW1. I didn't have to talk to or group up with a single other person in order to finish all three campaigns + EotN. Just threw some money at ANet for skills, looked up some builds, and voila. Good times.

  • @Knighthonor.4061 said:

    @Ben K.6238 said:

    @Knighthonor.4061 said:
    Nobody talks because of risk of Map Suppression

    Uh... no. Getting suppressed is pretty rare if you're not spamming chat.

    The ones who get suppressed and don't understand why are also the ones I'm most thankful are being suppressed, because it means I don't have to block them myself.

    well I have to disagree

    Is your opinion based on actual evidence? Suppression only happens if people repeat near-identical text. It can be (almost always avoided) by varying the message, for example "Hab 50%" vs "mantle boss half dead."

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • f2p can not use mapchat
    whenever I tag a mentor in a starter zone (well unless it is early morning or really late at night) I have plenty of chatting to do.

  • Hashberry.4510Hashberry.4510 Member ✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    And while I happened to love bartering, many people do not. The only reason that P2P trading existed is that there was no other non-farming source for huge varieties of needed goods. People who understood the markets made plat in droves; people who didn't ... gave up plat in droves. On the whole, P2P trading is a zero-sum PvP game, not "community interaction."

    You are saying it's not community interaction but that's completely false. Let me define community interaction:

    Let's say you have a girlfriend... and let's say you have the option to either

    • A- Text a girl you like; saying you love her.
    • B- Meet the girl in person; saying you love her.

    You can tell which one is interaction right? They are both interactions...but one is devoid of physicality...i shouldn't have to tell you which one FEELS better...but it's definetly the 2nd one. Compare the above example to this example.

    Let's say you need advise because your lost. and let's say you have the option to either...

    • A- Ask for advise in map chat.
    • B- Meeting some stranger (Player Z) along the road, asking them for advise.

    Now tell me...which one is more interactive? Which one is more likely to garner a response? Which one is more likely to give you the potential to gain a new friend? If your wondering why, it's because of the same reason as the above example. The physicality or "face to face" interaction with another player gives the opportunity of confrontation, for a more MEANINGFUL experience. This confrontation isn't forced...it just arises more often.

    This issue is very much similar to the IRL issues of today's technological generation...We are sitting behind computer screens and systems that automatize our experiences with other people. And what do you expect when you click on an article to read and 20 ads appear and pop in your face saying SUBSCRIBE TO OUR NEWSLETTER and you instantly just click off because the experience lacked any sort of meaning. Autonomy...sounds very similar to the Black Lion Trading Company NPC don't you think?

    The reason it's so difficult for people to notice that these things are a problem is because humans NATURALLY try to be as efficient as possible. We are scientific creatures that will always try to advance...which is why we strive for full autonomy...This is what waypoints do...The Black Lion Trading Company...Mounts. These are all systems that strive to automatize our experiences. But there are consequences to all these things. consequences for waypoints? Emptier maps. BLTC? razor thin profit margins. Mounts? Again, emptier maps.

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Allow me to go back to Guild Wars 1. ... GW1 had EXCELLENT community interaction...

    Of all the examples to use, this was probably the worst. GW1 had much, much less community interaction than GW2 does if you compare them at similar periods.

    GW1 launched in 2005; it's sole "expansion" (as opposed to "campaign") dropped in 2007. Three years into GW1, people were running 3 hero/4 hench teams everywhere, except the underworld and a few HM dungeons. "Drok's Run" and similar skips weren't "community interaction;" they were one-time transactions that allowed people to bypass gates.

    I don't know what you mean by "Bypass gates" This is completely wrong. It was so that you could fast travel from one place to another. (From say Ascalon City, to Lions Arch) and you would collect all the way points in between. You say they aren't community interaction....but that's also wrong. It was 100% community driven behavior...and from it came player to player interaction. It was very common for people to talk during these runs, and make friends.

    Ehh, you want to eliminate options so folks are forced into your preferred style. No thanks.

  • Zuldari.3940Zuldari.3940 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 17, 2019

    I think the op is looking for barrens chat lol. I wish people would talk more but i understand why they dont a lot of times. Its an active game out in the zones take your attention away and go to type something, you may wind up dead. Not to mention combat is fantastic and fast paced cant really type when you fighting your way around a zone. Wait i take that back there is one truth that hunters/rangers with lb and pet no matter what game it is can afk kill things >_> necro/warlocks too lol

    I starting to love this game, and as i get more involved i do see some glaring issues that anet needs to deal with, but only because i want the game to go on another 7 years. They need to advertise more and get the word out, dont just rely on players to do it. Get out there and get interviews in the popular gamer sites. I know its been said a hundred times, and there is a reason it has been said that much..update pvp and wvw. I know open world is their main thing in game, but originally this game was built with wvw as endgame. You have a really big population of wvw and pvp players that will come back if changes are made. New map types, smaller queue maps for 20v20 new rewards, instead of letting it sit there and rot. There is eotm few people go there, break it up into smaller battle ground maps for 20 man teams with its own reward system, and capture type, different from borderlands.

    Rewards ingame should be bumped up, i know they need the gem store, but if you want to retain players that may well buy from the store you have to give them incentive to keep playing. One of the biggest motivators is rewards for doing a job well done. Maybe you should rethink adding some mount skins to the game that are a little dif from the base ones. 2 or 3 dye channels a dif look, add them as drops in raids, fracts, a chance off world events and metas. I think you underestimate the players resolve to get rewards from ingame. When all you do is focus on the gem store, the ingame content suffers. The people that buy mount skins and outfits will always do so regardless of ingame drops or not. But this way players feel like you are sharing with them, instead of trying to get them to buy. It would go a long way for players and retain them if some things changed.

    You are always going to have those players that stay and say everything is fine, but you cant base everything off them. You have a larger base that needs attention also, and healthy criticism is good. Business 101 listen to the customer, not about every little rage or idea. But when there is a outcry about something en mass maybe look into it. It also goes without saying new stuff should be added ingame regularly, i dont mean every month add a new zone. Thats just crazy talk, but there are things you can add to grab players interest. I think the world events like boss rush etc are a start. But also permanent stuff, or if not that then keep a rotating schedule of adventures for players. But try not to overlap them because then it just becomes a mess.

    The majority of people need incentive to do things, so give them that, keep them busy at the same time having fun.

    Coo! Quaggan Love's You! ♥♥♥

  • Diak Atoli.2085Diak Atoli.2085 Member ✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    I don't know what you mean by "Bypass gates"

    I think this was referring to getting to LA in GW1 being gated behind passing through Lornar's Pass. Not many did this solo; rather, they found runners and paid for the trip.

    Actually, 'Drok's run' typically refers to a route from Beacon's Perch to Droknar's Forge, the first town in the campaign to offer max level armor. Some runs can even start from Ascalon City. Players would pay specialized runners to to ferry them there, through high-level maps such as Lornar's Pass and Snake Dance. This run allows players to skip about 12 story mission, (including the entirety of the Crystal Desert), which is the only other way to reach Droknar's Forge. Hench the 'bypass gates.'

  • @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    You seem to be nostalgic for a game that never existed, finding comfort in interactions forced by mechanics because they bring you in direct contact.

    I'm not really nostalgic for GW1. I'm using GW1 as an example for comparison. I could compare it to other games, but i don't really want to do that for the sake of staying on topic of gw2.

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    Calling it "community interaction" is misleading, because the "community" isn't involved; at best, your examples involve a couple of individuals who party up for a business transaction. It's no better nor worse than typing in /map.
    GW1 didn't offer "community;" it offered obstacles, from which some individuals profited by offering services. "Offering Drok's run" or "WTS ecto" are business advertisements, not offers of assistance.
    You can literally have those same types of interactions in GW2, if you want. Or, one of the nice things about this game over GW2, there are also other reasons to communicate with strangers.

    I have to be very upfront here; You're totally overlooking what i'm saying. I'm not talking simply about business transactions...I'm talking about an overarching set of in-game mechanics that overall contribute to a bigger problem.
    Waypoints, Mounts, BLTC, crafting, Map Chat, Questing...The way these systems are set up (this is just a few of the many many systems btw) that overall lead to this sort of emptiness in the open world maps. When i compare it to guild wars 1, i'm merely saying that many of the systems in place were good at countering autonomy and self-sufficiency so that players had a chance to interact.

    If my examples are not enough when referring to a previous game ill try another example, which is to take all the systems that empower autonomy in Guild wars 2 and multiply the effect x100 to see what kind of game we would get if we cranked up the notches on every single form of automated system

    Example 1 The Black Lion Trading Company
    The Black Lion Trading Company is a place where Sellers sell things, and buyers buy things, and the prices of these things come to equilibrium based on Supply and Demand. Now let's imagine for a moment, we could purchase a little asuran robot, to cut out the need to interact with the Black Lion NPC/window at all. We tell this asuran golembot to buy and sell items based on our preferences. One preference may be to buy and sell items enough to gather all the T6 materials needed for Gift's of Might and Magic, while remaining on neutral profit/loss margins. Such a preference seems perfectly plausible for our little asuran golembot to handle.

    Great, we now have automatized Trading...let's throw in automatized crafting....
    Example 2 Crafting
    In addition to the above example, let's say we had little golembots that are able to gather materials for us automatically in our home instance. In our crafting menu, we could select which items we wish to craft, and once all the materials in our inventory are met, the crafting will automatically occur, and the item will appear in our inventory. Sounds possible...

    Example 3, Content and rewards
    So...our Blacklion-bot, and our crafting-bot are getting us all the cool stuff we want...so lets play the game. But let's automatize that too. Let's create a Questo-Bot that can just go out into the open world and complete quests for us by killing things, and handing whatever item of the hour item to their approriate NPC's. I'm pretty sure that this Questo-bot can complete 90% of the content in Mainland Tyria...if we really wanted to crank it up our questo-bot would be strong enough to do raids and fractals...but let's not take it that far.

    Okay so now that you've read all these examples...i'm sure you understand. The gameplay would be terrible...cause there's no games to play just robots playing it for us. This is very obvious.
    But now, what you need to consider, is that if players are in game, what level of interaction is there for players to interact with each other? If all we are doing is monitoring the success of our bots from out home instance, then there is no reason to leave the home instance, and therefor, nobody leaves. Even if we aren't monitoring the success of our asuran golembots, what other reason is there to leave the home instance anyway? What if we were able to automatize every single system in the game to the point where we don't have to leave home? Sounds like a familiar problem right? World of Warcraft took basically everything they had and cranked up autonomy to level 100 and look where it got them...it was so bad they had to backlog the game with a vanilla WoW release.

    Look at Guild wars 2 right now and just look at the current level of autonomy. I'm not saying Guild Wars 2 is creating more and more autonomous systems (They are but let's ignore that for now) but what i'm saying is that the CURRENT level of autonomy they have already effects the game and it's current level of interaction is a reflection of those systems. People are saying that i want to remove these systems. That's not entirely what i want. These systems need to either be changed, or newer systems put in place to regress or take away the autonomy that's made too many players content on basic interaction.

  • @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    I have to be very upfront here; You're totally overlooking what i'm saying. I'm not talking simply about business transactions...

    Except every example you've given for "community interaction" has been a business transaction.

    These systems need to either be changed, or newer systems put in place to regress or take away the autonomy that's made too many players content on basic interaction.

    You haven't succeeded in establishing an issue. As I've said, you keep claiming that things were better in GW1 and I think it was far, far worse: after heroes were introduced, the primary interactions were business, not community.

    I find that people team up here, in community-oriented ways, far more often. I meet people through fractals and raiding and metas, and even the occasional P2P trade. I meet people via /map

    The "autonomous" systems you complain about actually make this easier: instead of spending time having to worry about how to find trading, I can focus on playing content I like, where I'm likely to meet like-minded people.

    Put another way: GW2 already has lots of mechanics that all-but-require grouping up. If you aren't seeing them, maybe it's time to take another look at those other parts of the game.

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Gw2 is "lost" in general direction. It is hard to see what anet really want gw2 to provide to players.

    Take for example dungeons. We have dungeons but it is not expanded on. We got so many new maps yet none of these new maps has any new dungeons. We now use meta event as a mean to get new gears, not dungeons. Likewise, gears are so easily sourced everywhere, it really make certain contents redundant.

    The raid itself is not accessible to most, most will find it hard to complete. You locked out people from certain contents by doing so. Just what is the target audience of gw2? Is it the casual? Is it the hardcore? Just want gw2 is trying to focus on? You cannot be a jack of all trades. Look at FF14, tons of people playing just because the contents are accessible by most.

    Anet really need to decide if they want this to be hardcore or casual, and design the game around their target audience. Other than that, all I can see is how lost gw2 is in general.

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi Server
    www.gw2time.com

    --

    Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

  • @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    You haven't succeeded in establishing an issue. As I've said, you keep claiming that things were better in GW1 and I think it was far, far worse: after heroes were introduced, the primary interactions were business, not community.

    Ya, Hero's was an automated system. So ya GW1 had Autonomy problems as well. Although towards the end of gw1 lifespan, there just wasn't enough people to even get full groups to play anymore so people had to use hero's and henchmen for some of the content.

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    I find that people team up here, in community-oriented ways, far more often. I meet people through fractals and raiding and metas, and even the occasional P2P trade. I meet people via /map

    Keep in mind that what you are saying is based on your personal experience...which is very subjective. Let me tell you a short story to help you understand where i'm coming from personally, so that we can be on the same page.

    I'm a veteran PVPer, WvWer and i've played some of the PVE content. I was sitting in queensdale...pretty much trying to gauge how active the place was. I'm there trying to make the atmosphere a bit lighter...took out the Box o' Fun...attempted talking to strangers. Even if i got whispers back instead of /say that was fine with me. Now my fashion wars is pretty top notch...so one player whispers me "Hey your armor looks kitten." From there we continue a conversation and it turns out he is new to the game by a few hours...cool. He's really interested in playing the game and was asking me all sorts of questions about pvp and wvw since that's what he kinda wants to get into.

    Now he asked me if i could join the current guild that i'm in. Mind you, that this WvW guild that i'm in isn't really strict on recruiting...but we are a guild of serious players that WvW/GvG. So, i proposed that he could join as long as i prep him for WvW (By mentoring/teaching). He has two characters and so had a choice of either Ranger or Guardian, and i said that for WvW they'd def prefer a Firebrand. Now he said he was going to use a level 80 Boost to take his character from 0 to 80.

    I really like this guy...he was really friendly. But i feel terrible...because i have to go and hold his hand pretty much through all the content just for him to even begin to start playing WvW. This could take weeks or months...just for him to make enough gold to buy decent gear, hero points for traits etc, even with a level 80 boost.

    But really all he really wanted is to play with some friends. and wanted to skip all the content the game has to offer because he has a level 80 boost. In a sense i can't blame him for wanting that, because the pve content is a snooze fest. But if he leveled traditionally...exploring the world..maybe there would be a chance for him to meet other players that are his peers and grow together through the content and learn more about the game. I really want to play with this guy and teach him all there is to know about wvw and pvp...but what i'm doing is automatizing him...speeding him through basic stuff that he should learn through the core game, with friends that he makes along the way... The truth is by making him take the boost, i deny him that experience. So ya that's why i feel a bit terrible. and that's my short story.

    Anyway, i'm not really saying that you can't meet people in areas like raid's and wvw and pvp...in fact those places are the cornerstones of what we currently have as community interaction. But outside of these zones, the systems currently in place just don't facilitate community interaction...Truth is that even though i want to help this new player get to WvW...i don't know if i have the man-hours to do it.

  • So, what you are saying is that this statement was not true?

    "I've been sitting in Queensdale/Shaemoor for a good 30 minutes now and not a SINGLE person in either Map Chat or Say
    chat has said anything..."

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Questing is so braindead simple in these zones, that there is no need for anyone to go out and find groups of people. And when there are groupings of people, like near bosses, the bosses are so braindead simple to beat, that you can just auto-attack them and they will eventually die. There's no need to discuss tactics, strategies, or trouble shoot problems, or solve puzzles...

    How many golds did you manage to get in Boss Blitz? Did it involve any kind of talking?

  • Whenever I do TT, and no one talks, it always fails.

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