Could Vlast be a better candidate than Aurene? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Could Vlast be a better candidate than Aurene?

DonArkanio.6419DonArkanio.6419 Member ✭✭✭✭

Hey there,

I really liked Vlast in PoF. He had a lot more experience than Aurene and seemed to be a good choice overall.
He had a good amount of knowledge and went against Balthazar to help us (help Aurene). Vlast seemed a lot more understanding which could potentially make him an ally a lot stronger than Aurene.

He had some problems which prevented him from doing everything Aurene could. But I am very curious of what you think.

Did you like the short story about Vlast? Or would you perhaps like Vlast to be the one who helped us all the way after we found him?

Comments

  • @DonArkanio.6419 said:
    Why do you think Devs went for Aurene instead?
    I don't really understand what is the reasoning behind bringing a whole new character to the table if we already have an established one.

    For the plot of Season 2 and Heart of Thorns, a 250 year old dragon couldn't really fill the role of something vulnerable and important to Glint's legacy. So it makes sense to go for an egg there, and after you protect the egg, it only makes sense for a plot where it hatches and needs to grow, so then Season 3's involvement with Aurene makes sense.

    At that point, the writers are attached to the character (and believe the players in majority are) and make them "the Scion" rather than "a Scion". But at the same time, their plot direction of Kralkatorrik's weakness being his own grandchildren - again, putting a 250 year old dragon with combat experience into the position of a hostage that's being drained is a lot less believable than putting an infant dragon in that situation. So they did away with Vlast so that Aurene could fill that role.

    I can definitely see their mentality through and through. I just don't think Aurene was a good candidate yet. She should have not replaced Kralkatorrik, but rather another dragon.

    @Sir Alric.5078 said:
    -snip-

    Thing is, the whole lack of a champion and him having depression was written in specifically so that he could be a tragic character of lost potential and not be a candidate for Elder Dragonhood. If they had honestly considered him to be a long-lasting candidate, they didn't need to have those aspects. They could have easily wrote in that he had bonded with someone (even the Hero of GW1), or that he wasn't so depressed, etc. They could even have had a member of Dragon's Watch form a bond and become his champion. For example, I could easily see a Canach and Vlast pairing with their existing personalities, allowing Vlast to break out of his depression and his sense of lacking true purpose and gaining that bond with mortals in a darker (but still good) manner than Aurene did.

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  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Thing is, the whole lack of a champion and him having depression was written in specifically so that he could be a tragic character of lost potential and not be a candidate for Elder Dragonhood. If they had honestly considered him to be a long-lasting candidate, they didn't need to have those aspects. They could have easily wrote in that he had bonded with someone (even the Hero of GW1), or that he wasn't so depressed, etc. They could even have had a member of Dragon's Watch form a bond and become his champion. For example, I could easily see a Canach and Vlast pairing with their existing personalities, allowing Vlast to break out of his depression and his sense of lacking true purpose and gaining that bond with mortals in a darker (but still good) manner than Aurene did.

    That actually sound like an amazing plot. :D
    I just have to wonder... Canach seems to be one of the most popular characters ATM. Would there still have been that very vocal part of the playerbase screeming for his head if he dared taking "spotlight" from the PC and bonding with the actual replacement Elder Dragon, while the allmighty hero was being stuck babysitting Aurene?
    I don't know. Maybe it could have worked if Canach really is as well-liked as it seems, but I'm afraid we'd have seen a lot of hate for him with that story.

    I do like Aurene, but I also think the development was too soon and too fast. Teaming up with Vlast and having him replace Kralkatorrik seems like a better progression to me, too.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 17, 2019

    @Fenella.2634 said:
    I just have to wonder... Canach seems to be one of the most popular characters ATM. Would there still have been that very vocal part of the playerbase screeming for his head if he dared taking "spotlight" from the PC and bonding with the actual replacement Elder Dragon, while the allmighty hero was being stuck babysitting Aurene?

    not so much if it happened in a "canach way", like canach-rytlock brimstone interactions, or canach-anise interactions. Canach is some sort of "frontline version" of Alfred Pennyworth ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Pennyworth ).

    A traditional English butler, Alfred always kept a stiff upper lip, even under the extraordinary circumstances imposed by his master's secret identity. No matter what the situation, Alfred always responded with resolve, equanimity, and good humor.

    Though he and Bruce occasionally quarreled, Alfred's loyalty remained absolute. Partially this could be explained by continued loyalty to Thomas Wayne, and a traditional sense of duty to one's master. At the same time, Alfred found ways to express his pride in Bruce, and his belief in the cause he was fighting for.

    Also, Alfred may well have felt (not without cause) that Bruce couldn't get by without his help.

    https://dcau.fandom.com/wiki/Alfred_Pennyworth

    "It's a testament to the folly of the humans and their gods. They say Arah was sacred, but all I see is one big dragon nest."(Rytlock Brimstone)

  • lakdav.3694lakdav.3694 Member ✭✭✭

    I fear that would have sent Canach down a bad Kormirification path. That, and it would have further amplified the apparent sylvari-centric plot. Trahearne for Pact Marshall, Scarlet for Season 1 main villain, the whole Mordremoth line of HoT… If Canach had stepped forward in such a light (before Caithe goes all motherly First Disciple for Aurene), I think it would have been criticized worse.

    Personally I liked Aurene's direction. The whole point of her story has been the impossibility of trying to live up to her predetermined role. Vlast's similar attempt and failure to do so further reinforced that impossibility, and that was his role. I'm only sorry that we haven't heard more from him before PoF. Revealing him to be the one to pass on Aurene's egg to the Master of Peace would have been perfect I think, and we wouldn't have had to guess who that mysterious voice was in that memory..

  • @Fenella.2634 said:
    I just have to wonder... Canach seems to be one of the most popular characters ATM. Would there still have been that very vocal part of the playerbase screeming for his head if he dared taking "spotlight" from the PC and bonding with the actual replacement Elder Dragon, while the allmighty hero was being stuck babysitting Aurene?
    I don't know. Maybe it could have worked if Canach really is as well-liked as it seems, but I'm afraid we'd have seen a lot of hate for him with that story.

    Personally, I think that if people could not handle their characters not being the most special of all special people in every situation, then they need to seriously grow up.

    That said, it all depends on how it's written out. They'd have written the narrative a bit differently so that it wouldn't be Canach in the Commander's shoes for how they ended up writing it, but rather that it would be "Commander and Canach" in those shoes, without a doubt. The final battle would have been Canach, Commander, and Vlast (at the very least) versus Kralkatorrik and his Torment - if they even went the route of entering Kralkatorrik for the final confrontation.

    All that said, I just hope they don't turn this into a plot of "Aurene is the one true Elder Dragon" and they ignore the entire buildup throughout Season 3 and Path of Fire about there needing to be multiple Elder Dragons to balance The All. But at the same time, if we need to raise more scions like Aurene, I hope that it isn't the Commander attached, but other members of Dragon's Watch (which doesn't matter to me, tbh, so long as it's not Spotlight Taimi).

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  • Hesacon.8735Hesacon.8735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Bathazar helps us protect Aurene's (in Lazarus disguise) because he needed a scion of Glint to defealt Kralk. Balthazar knew exactly what he was doing fighting the elder dragons and was hedging his bets on which elder dragons he wanted to kill. Ultimately he settled on Primordus and Jormag at the same time using Omadd's Machine. Then we stepped in and stopped him.

    Stepping in and destroying Omadd's Machine doomed Vlast as it sent Balthazar to the Crystal Desert. Even if Vlast would have made a better candidate than Aurene as Kralk's replacement, he was the better candidate for Balthazar fighting Kralk. For the plot of LW3/PoF to make any sense, Balthazar had to go after Vlast, which he did.

    Then, because Vlast lost, it triggered Balthazar killing us as bait to attract Aurene. Balthazar made one slip up and Aurene absorbed a lot of Balthazar's magic, allowing her to become really powerful in a hurry. By episode 5 of LW4 when we lost to Kralk, Aurene was far stronger than Vlast. Then in the next episode she killed Kralk and became stronger than any other elder dragon. (Which probably means she won't be present to fight Primordus/Jormag in LW5, because the Pact + Aurene would steamroll either of them at this point... unless they work together... So, uh, LW5 will be interesting.)

  • @Hesacon.8735 said:
    Balthazar made one slip up and Aurene absorbed a lot of Balthazar's magic, allowing her to become really powerful in a hurry.

    While this is true, it also made Kralkatorrik much more stronger. The amount of power Aurene got was far smaller than the amount Kralkatorrik got.

    By episode 5 of LW4 when we lost to Kralk, Aurene was far stronger than Vlast.

    I highly disagree here. Vlast had 250 years to consume magic, and he could easily have gotten a power boost from Zhaitan's death as well as Mordremoth's just as Kralkatorrik did. Though Vlast is never showcased as having additional powers, Aurene doesn't showcase powers from Mordremoth either despite getting a direct hit of magic as an egg.

    We don't really know how powerful Vlast was, so it's impossible to say that Aurene was stronger than Vlast (let alone "far stronger") by the time of All or Nothing. She had additional powers that she got from Balthazar and (somehow, despite consistency) Joko, but the thing is, if Vlast wasn't killed off for the sake of making Aurene "the one", then Vlast would have been in position to get Balthazar's magic instead of Aurene. Which means Vlast would have been even more powerful than Aurene was during Episode 5 - he might not have died and needed resurrection.

    Then in the next episode she killed Kralk and became stronger than any other elder dragon. (Which probably means she won't be present to fight Primordus/Jormag in LW5, because the Pact + Aurene would steamroll either of them at this point... unless they work together... So, uh, LW5 will be interesting.)

    Hard to claim she's stronger than any other Elder Dragon. We don't know what she did with the facets of magic that Kralkatorrik got from Balthazar, Zhaitan, and Mordremoth. She sealed them off and the Commander destroyed those facets, so while Aurene ate Kralkatorrik's magic to ascend, nothing's very clear about the magic he consumed but wasn't meant to.

    In addition, in the recent Q&A with the narrative team, it was said that Balthazar's magic spread through the world, so the other Elder Dragons could be gathering it as well, and might even gain Balthazar's Mists-jumping abilities at some point.

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  • Hesacon.8735Hesacon.8735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Hesacon.8735 said:
    Balthazar made one slip up and Aurene absorbed a lot of Balthazar's magic, allowing her to become really powerful in a hurry.

    While this is true, it also made Kralkatorrik much more stronger. The amount of power Aurene got was far smaller than the amount Kralkatorrik got.

    This is true, but I'm not trying to draw parallels between Aurene and Kralk, I'm trying to do it between Aurene and Vlast. An elder dragon is almost by definition going to be stronger than not-an-elder dragon until it dies.

    By episode 5 of LW4 when we lost to Kralk, Aurene was far stronger than Vlast.

    I highly disagree here. Vlast had 250 years to consume magic, and he could easily have gotten a power boost from Zhaitan's death as well as Mordremoth's just as Kralkatorrik did. Though Vlast is never showcased as having additional powers, Aurene doesn't showcase powers from Mordremoth either despite getting a direct hit of magic as an egg.

    We don't really know how powerful Vlast was, so it's impossible to say that Aurene was stronger than Vlast (let alone "far stronger") by the time of All or Nothing. She had additional powers that she got from Balthazar and (somehow, despite consistency) Joko, but the thing is, if Vlast wasn't killed off for the sake of making Aurene "the one", then Vlast would have been in position to get Balthazar's magic instead of Aurene. Which means Vlast would have been even more powerful than Aurene was during Episode 5 - he might not have died and needed resurrection.

    We know it from context. By episode 5 Aurene had grown strong enough to brand things. If Vlast had this ability, some NPC in Elona would have mentioned it and made uncomfortable comparisons between Vlast and Kralk.

    Branding is not a Joko/Balthazar/Mordremoth/Zhaitan power, it's a bloodline heritage power. This is purely speculation, but one would imagine that this branding power requires a minimum amount of magic/training to pull off.

    You're right that Vlast wasn't killed off for the sake of making Aurene "the one", he was killed off because Balthazar killed him. Not every story thread needs a deeper meaning. In Act I of PoF Vlast is clearly stronger than Aurene. If Vlast absorbed Balthazar and Joko magic he would have been stronger than Aurene. But it's moot because Balthazar killed him.

    It's also not clear the conflict with Joko would have happened had Vlast not been killed. Our adversarial relationship with Joko only occurred after Balthazar killed us to bait Aurene and we told him off and we stole his army. So is Vlast + Balthazar magic stronger than Aurene + Balthazar + Joko magic? We'll never know for sure. It's also possible that with Vlast on our side in the PoF campaign we would have knocked out both Balthazar and Kralk instead of just Balthazar.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Thing is, the whole lack of a champion and him having depression was written in specifically so that he could be a tragic character of lost potential and not be a candidate for Elder Dragonhood. If they had honestly considered him to be a long-lasting candidate, they didn't need to have those aspects. They could have easily wrote in that he had bonded with someone (even the Hero of GW1), or that he wasn't so depressed, etc. They could even have had a member of Dragon's Watch form a bond and become his champion. For example, I could easily see a Canach and Vlast pairing with their existing personalities, allowing Vlast to break out of his depression and his sense of lacking true purpose and gaining that bond with mortals in a darker (but still good) manner than Aurene did.

    Honestly, it could have been a good opportunity to bring in the GW1PC. The GW1PC was already getting a bit cynical and worldweary, and after two and a half centuries, the GW1PC could have changed enough to be unrecognisable... might even be an Exalted, in fact.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hesacon.8735 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    We don't really know how powerful Vlast was, so it's impossible to say that Aurene was stronger than Vlast (let alone "far stronger") by the time of All or Nothing. She had additional powers that she got from Balthazar and (somehow, despite consistency) Joko, but the thing is, if Vlast wasn't killed off for the sake of making Aurene "the one", then Vlast would have been in position to get Balthazar's magic instead of Aurene. Which means Vlast would have been even more powerful than Aurene was during Episode 5 - he might not have died and needed resurrection.

    We know it from context. By episode 5 Aurene had grown strong enough to brand things. If Vlast had this ability, some NPC in Elona would have mentioned it and made uncomfortable comparisons between Vlast and Kralk.

    We actually do see Vlast's branding in PoF. That battlefield we have to cross to reach him is dotted with his crystal formations.

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  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    (which doesn't matter to me, tbh, so long as it's not Spotlight Taimi).

    Inb4 Taimi puts herself into a dragon golem that can replace one of them.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2019

    @Hesacon.8735 said:
    This is true, but I'm not trying to draw parallels between Aurene and Kralk, I'm trying to do it between Aurene and Vlast. An elder dragon is almost by definition going to be stronger than not-an-elder dragon until it dies.

    The issue is that you're drawing parallels to pre-PoF Vlast, to post-PoF Aurene.

    If Vlast was used by Arenanet as a proper candidate, thus didn't die, then he would have been the one at Kralkatorrik upon Balthazar's death, so he would have gotten that power boost instead of Aurene.

    We know it from context. By episode 5 Aurene had grown strong enough to brand things. If Vlast had this ability, some NPC in Elona would have mentioned it and made uncomfortable comparisons between Vlast and Kralk.

    Branding is not a Joko/Balthazar/Mordremoth/Zhaitan power, it's a bloodline heritage power. This is purely speculation, but one would imagine that this branding power requires a minimum amount of magic/training to pull off.

    Vlast very much was capable of branding things. That's how he fought the Branded - by creating golden branded spikes as weapons.

    So by that argument, Aurene in Episode 5 was weaker than Vlast during PoF. Except that Aurene had Balthazar's Mists-rift capabilities, because she was just beginning to do something Vlast had been doing for a decade.

    You're right that Vlast wasn't killed off for the sake of making Aurene "the one", he was killed off because Balthazar killed him. Not every story thread needs a deeper meaning.

    I was saying that Vlast was killed off by the writers for the sake of making Aurene the "chosen one" figure. That's why they had him die by Balthazar's and the Commander's hands (though the Commander didn't deal any blow, Vlast died protecting the Commander, so the Commander is at fault here). There's no deeper meaning here - it's pretty obvious they intended to make Aurene the chosen one among the dragon scions, they even called Season 4 "Aurene's story" recently.

    Because Vlast was a more logical choice to both be used against Kralkatorrik and to usurp Kralkatorrik, ArenaNet killed him off by turning him into a tragic 'lost potential' character, and brought Aurene in who somehow flew from the Maguuma to Crystal Desert despite moments before being said she was barely able to fly for long periods of time (per, iirc, The Sacrifice's dialogue with Taimi).

    It's also not clear the conflict with Joko would have happened had Vlast not been killed. Our adversarial relationship with Joko only occurred after Balthazar killed us to bait Aurene and we told him off and we stole his army. So is Vlast + Balthazar magic stronger than Aurene + Balthazar + Joko magic? We'll never know for sure. It's also possible that with Vlast on our side in the PoF campaign we would have knocked out both Balthazar and Kralk instead of just Balthazar.

    True. Though I'd argue that if Vlast with Balthazar magic could take out Kralkatorrik without Joko's immortality magic, then that would just be further proof he was stronger than Aurene with Balthazar and Joko magic. This discussion isn't really about killing Joko or not anyways - if Vlast was strong enough, he wouldn't have died in the same position Aurene did (nor would there be such a strong Jesus parallel).

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  • lakdav.3694lakdav.3694 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm not so sure that 250 years is that much of an advantage in dragon years, especially when faced with Elder Dragon magnitudes of time and power.
    Glint was no match to Kralkatorrik herself. (on a sidenote, come to think of it: If Dragons can have a taste of the magic when a godlike entity's power is released and immediately taken by another, as it was suggested about Balthazar's power when he died, wouldn't have Glint gained a little taste of Dhuum's and Abaddon's power upon them being usurped by Grenth and Kormir respectively? I mean at least Abaddon's place (being Kormir's library now) is pretty close to The Tomb of the Primeval Kings which is right in the neighborhood of Glint's lair... And some of that magic must have reached Tyria to stir the Elder Dragons.)

    Joko's death and consumption was absolutely vital for Aurene's ascension. The trials didn't open before the Death of the Lich, and the trials needed a champion beside the dragon. That ascension was the most important step to fulfil Aurene's role.

    Vlast likely never had the same prophesized role as Aurene either, not because his champion never showed up (as he says in a memory), but because probably he never supposed to have one. One thing I'm quite sure though, is that Vlast too had some measure of prophetic vision, beyond what Glint and the Exalted wanted for him to know. Chances are he knew himself to be a failed potential before it happened.

  • @lakdav.3694 said:
    I'm not so sure that 250 years is that much of an advantage in dragon years, especially when faced with Elder Dragon magnitudes of time and power.
    Glint was no match to Kralkatorrik herself.

    Though one can pin this solely on the whole "Elder Dragons need replacements wasn't part of the lore at the time", in Edge of Destiny, Glint seemed to care more about killing Kralkatorrik than replacing him. What's odd, though, is that Glint faced Kralkatorrik alone with Destiny's Edge. This, to me, tells me that Glint never intended to survive the battle in the first place. If she truly meant to bring Kralkatorrik down, she would have used her full forces of Forgotten, Exalted, and Vlast to aid her. Though this, itself, could be shrugged off as either outsourced writer not considering, or typical ArenaNet writing oversight (or both).

    Point being, I'm not so sure "Glint was no match to Kralkatorrik herself" is an accurate statement. One can say it is, but at the same time it looks like she wasn't even trying to win / survive.

    (on a sidenote, come to think of it: If Dragons can have a taste of the magic when a godlike entity's power is released and immediately taken by another, as it was suggested about Balthazar's power when he died, wouldn't have Glint gained a little taste of Dhuum's and Abaddon's power upon them being usurped by Grenth and Kormir respectively? I mean at least Abaddon's place (being Kormir's library now) is pretty close to The Tomb of the Primeval Kings which is right in the neighborhood of Glint's lair... And some of that magic must have reached Tyria to stir the Elder Dragons.)

    Balthazar wasn't a god anymore. Though he altered the magic that he held, that magic ultimately came from Primordus, Jormag, and the Maguuma Bloodstone. This would be different from Dhuum and Abaddon, who's unleashed magic would be true divine power. With Abaddon's death stirring Primordus, it sounds more like the sent of additonal magic in an already magically heavy world stirred him (keep in mind that Abaddon's death happened in short order - especially for an Elder Dragon - after the Searing and Cataclysm, and not too much longer after the Jade Wind).

    Joko's death and consumption was absolutely vital for Aurene's ascension. The trials didn't open before the Death of the Lich, and the trials needed a champion beside the dragon. That ascension was the most important step to fulfil Aurene's role.

    This was just poor writing. The entire "three signs" seemed like it was just a shoe-horned explanation for why Joko "had" to die that way, and was probably added after Joko's gag death got some complaints. This is especially apparent since in the War Eternal Guild Chat episode, they outright stated that when they killed Aurene, they didn't know how they were going to bring her back. It wasn't until they were writing how to bring her back (aka writing Episode 6) that they thought "hey, she ate Joko, so why not have her resurrect via Joko's magic?"Which means when Episode 5 was being written - when that line about the three signs was being written - none of that had to do with Aurene's resurrection unless it was a very last minute addition.

    Vlast likely never had the same prophesized role as Aurene either, not because his champion never showed up (as he says in a memory), but because probably he never supposed to have one.

    Poor argument. You're basically saying "the writers didn't write a certain character as the hero, so that character could never be a hero in a what if scenario of the writers going a different path." Obviously Vlast didn't have a prophecy about him like Aurene, because Vlast was simply thrown away immediately.

    Let's ignore Glint's contradictory prophecies for a moment (how did she prophecize Aurene's battles, when she couldn't see past her own death?), as well as the poor writing of only thinking of how to resurrect Aurene after the fact of killing her off for obvious dramatic tension alone, and consider things from a truly in-universe "what if" scenario machine.

    Based on abilities, Vlast in PoF was about as powerful as Aurene was in Ep4-6, with two exceptions: immortality through gag-death, and rift-making through manchild's death. This means that the direct powerboost that Aurene got is basically as strong as Vlast himself. Had Vlast not died in PoF, he would have been in the position Aurene was, thus not only getting rift-making abilities, but effectively doubling his power. Aurene's immortality magic had no real influence on the battle during All or Nothing. On top of that, the original Dragonsblood Spear wouldn't have been destroyed, thus making the Commander indirectly more powerful.

    Basically, had Vlast survived, he would be effectively double the strength of Aurene, and the E5's Commander would be as powerful as E6 Commander.

    So it then becomes very unclear if Vlast would have died like Aurene did. And if he wouldn't be so overpowered in that last moment, then there wouldn't have been a need for Joko's power in the first place.

    To me, it isn't a question of "could Vlast have beaten Kralkatorrik?" as given all we know, and how close to death Kralkatorrik was in All or Nothing, the answer seems to be a resounding yes. The question is more "would Vlast becoming an Elder Dragon make an equally or compelling story?" and "would Vlast become a good Elder Dragon?"

    To return to Glint's contradictory prophecies for a moment, I want to bring back a line from the personal story:

    Avatar of the Tree: But be warned—the future can change in the blink of an eye...

    That vision of the future seen during A Light in the Darkness changes quite drastically. The Infinity Ball storyline also goes along this route, of a potential future seen and drastically changed. This is even alluded to in Aurene's many visions. Where she sees multiple possible futures, and none of them (strictly) occur.

    So even if Glint had prophecized from the beginning that Aurene would be the one to kill Kralkatorrik, but only after killing Joko, then there was zero guarantee that prophecy would occur. And even if Vlast had prophecized that he would be a failed succession, there is zero guarantee that would occur.

    Side tangent: It's rather annoying, to me, that we had spent 6 years building up and working with the notion of an ever-changing future that is nigh impossible to accurately prophecize, all for Episode 5 and 6 to be solely about an inevitable future that will occur just because it was prophecized.

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  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Vlast... They had to kill him off. We would have 2 dragons so they could just easily set the whole story. Imagine having Vlast and Aurene on our side... Gosh even with this Canach idea and leading Vlast on the way of redemption... I mean. That would not be good.

    Also Canach... he minds his own business, why would he care to be responsible for something AGAIN, as he hasn't suffered much already. If I were him, and would be forced to take care of a hundreds years old depressed dragon, I'd kill myself.

    I think Vlast's death was well played, and saved Arenanet a lot of incosistency in the future they planned. Aurene was meant to become the Crystal Dragon, not Vlast, it was clear since forever, and thanks goddness they stayed on Aurene track,

    And now when we have only Aurene that already consumed loads of magic, we stand before the problem - who would replace another dragon, then? - I think that's what they were aiming at, when they killed off Vlast.

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  • lakdav.3694lakdav.3694 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Point being, I'm not so sure "Glint was no match to Kralkatorrik herself" is an accurate statement. One can say it is, but at the same time it looks like she wasn't even trying to win / survive.

    It might be that she didn't try too hard. Maybe because she knew it would be pointlessly sacrificing the entire legacy she set up. She did want to give a good chance to Destiny's Edge though.

    (on a sidenote, come to think of it: If Dragons can have a taste of the magic when a godlike entity's power is released and immediately taken by another, as it was suggested about Balthazar's power when he died, wouldn't have Glint gained a little taste of Dhuum's and Abaddon's power upon them being usurped by Grenth and Kormir respectively? I mean at least Abaddon's place (being Kormir's library now) is pretty close to The Tomb of the Primeval Kings which is right in the neighborhood of Glint's lair... And some of that magic must have reached Tyria to stir the Elder Dragons.)

    Balthazar wasn't a god anymore. Though he altered the magic that he held, that magic ultimately came from Primordus, Jormag, and the Maguuma Bloodstone. This would be different from Dhuum and Abaddon, who's unleashed magic would be true divine power. With Abaddon's death stirring Primordus, it sounds more like the sent of additonal magic in an already magically heavy world stirred him (keep in mind that Abaddon's death happened in short order - especially for an Elder Dragon - after the Searing and Cataclysm, and not too much longer after the Jade Wind).

    Here I more meant the whole Mist-walking ability that is supposedly unique to gods. Though it is not an ability that is a natural part of the Elder Dragon diet (it is magic from outside of Tyria), Kralkatorrik and Aurene both proved that they can absorb and utilize this ability. So shouldn't have Glint been able to take some of this ability from Dhuum and Abaddon when they were being usurped?

    This was just poor writing.

    Maybe. Probably. But I prefer to try to make sense of the stories we are given without resorting to blaming the writers. Does this make me an instant apologist? Probably. But if we want to use poor writing as an argument, I would say that this:

    how did she prophecize Aurene's battles, when she couldn't see past her own death?)

    • is a better target. Prophets and seers not seeing past beyond their imminent deaths is a much-used trope, and considering how Kralkatorrik himself foresaw a world without him, I'd say that the writers put in Glint's inability to see past her final battle because that's just how prophets and seers work in fiction…

    To me, it isn't a question of "could Vlast have beaten Kralkatorrik?" as given all we know, and how close to death Kralkatorrik was in All or Nothing, the answer seems to be a resounding yes. The question is more "would Vlast becoming an Elder Dragon make an equally or compelling story?" and "would Vlast become a good Elder Dragon?"

    Good questions. The compelling story part is quite subjective I think. The question of Vlast being a good ED... sounds like a No. In his memories he says that most days he only feels anger. That doesn't sound promising.

    Side tangent: It's rather annoying, to me, that we had spent 6 years building up and working with the notion of an ever-changing future that is nigh impossible to accurately prophecize, all for Episode 5 and 6 to be solely about an inevitable future that will occur just because it was prophecized.

    To be fair our characters and the world worked our kittens off for the prophecy to come true, and many times it seemed like it wouldn't. The Pale Tree's quote fits well there… Even there it referred to how a potential and preferable future might slip from us and thus the world would be doomed.

  • @Arden.7480 said:
    I think Vlast's death was well played, and saved Arenanet a lot of incosistency in the future they planned. Aurene was meant to become the Crystal Dragon, not Vlast, it was clear since forever, and thanks goddness they stayed on Aurene track,

    And now when we have only Aurene that already consumed loads of magic, we stand before the problem - who would replace another dragon, then? - I think that's what they were aiming at, when they killed off Vlast.

    The idea that Aurene "was meant to become the Crystal Dragon" is rather iffy. When they introduced Aurene, the introduction made it seem more like she was meant to be a replacement for Mordremoth than Kralkatorrik. I mean, the entire legacy thing from the beginning was to have Glint's children become replacements for the Elder Dragons. Not one child replacing one ED (or one child replacing all ED). And how they explored the legacy was to have Glint included in those replacements; they've set up the lore so that the three crystal dragons would replace half of the Elder Dragons. Only to then do a 180 and suddenly it was always meant to be Aurene who replaced Kralkatorrik all along? (What was that about saving Arenanet a lot of inconsistency again?)

    Without Vlast, we're now hit with either the inconsistency of ArenaNet going "there must be multiple Elder Dragons" to "there is one Elder Dragon (Aurene)", or the issue of having to find and raise (again) five more replacements. With Vlast, they could have reduced the replacement conundrum by one on both finding and raising.

    There's only so many times you can redo the same plot again and again and again.

    @lakdav.3694 said:
    It might be that she didn't try too hard. Maybe because she knew it would be pointlessly sacrificing the entire legacy she set up. She did want to give a good chance to Destiny's Edge though.

    Conflict of interest there, then. Trying so as to give Destiny's Edge a fighting chance, while not trying hard enough so that Destiny's Edge would fail so her legacy doesn't mess up.

    The thing is, if she was able to predict Aurene killing Joko to become immortal, then she would have predicted the fate of Zhaitan. She could have fought harder, replaced Kralkatorrik, and become useful in making Aurene and/or Vlast replace other Elder Dragons. Then her legacy would have worked as Sadizi presents it was intended to be (Glint and her children replacing the Elder Dragons).

    Here I more meant the whole Mist-walking ability that is supposedly unique to gods. Though it is not an ability that is a natural part of the Elder Dragon diet (it is magic from outside of Tyria), Kralkatorrik and Aurene both proved that they can absorb and utilize this ability. So shouldn't have Glint been able to take some of this ability from Dhuum and Abaddon when they were being usurped?

    Divine magic has shown, time and time again, to be highly resistant to dragon consumption and corruption. From the Forgotten path in Arah, to the Divine Torch warding away mordrem in S2, Kormir's protective barrier around Sun's Refuge, and the djinn using the sands tainted by Abaddon's magic to counter branding.

    Which was the point I was getting at: when Dhuum and Abaddon were unleashed, they unleashed pure, raw divine magic. When Balthazar died, he unleashed Tyrian magic reshaped to mimic divine magic. That's why Kralkatorrik and Aurene could absorb Balthazar's magic upon his death, and Kralkatorrik then used that "fake divine magic" to figure a way to brand the djinn despite their protection from Abaddon's remnant magic.

    Maybe. Probably. But I prefer to try to make sense of the stories we are given without resorting to blaming the writers. Does this make me an instant apologist? Probably. But if we want to use poor writing as an argument, I would say that this:

    I try to as well, but I also avoid letting that cripple "what if" discussions like this one.

    Joko's death was necessary for Aurene to ascend as an Elder Dragon. But that doesn't mean it was necessary for Vlast. Besides that, the devs had stated that Vlast could enter that lair, hypothetically, and that the lair would react differently to his presence than to Aurene's.

    Good questions. The compelling story part is quite subjective I think. The question of Vlast being a good ED... sounds like a No. In his memories he says that most days he only feels anger. That doesn't sound promising.

    Which again leads to wondering how it would be if ArenaNet didn't write Vlast to be a "lost possibility" character. If they intended to have him live, they may not have made him so chronically depressed, or could have written in an arc where he gains a brighter view of the world before ascension. Would it then be such a bad option? Whether or not it'd be compelling is more dependent on the dialogue and scripting than the direction of the plot, I'd argue.

    The issue to me that makes Vlast living a resounding "better plot!", aside from the cringy death of Joko and resurrection of Aurene, would be as I said above to Arden: Without Vlast, we're either going to run into yet another retcon and inconsistency about how many Elder Dragons we need, or we're going to have to repeat the process that is Season 2 through Season 4 five more times (three, if the Commander and co. decides to leave the world on the brink of destruction but not tipping further).

    To be fair our characters and the world worked our kittens off for the prophecy to come true, and many times it seemed like it wouldn't. The Pale Tree's quote fits well there… Even there it referred to how a potential and preferable future might slip from us and thus the world would be doomed.

    Debateable. Especially given how many characters act as if the prophecy must absolutely come true. Glint (per Gwen's dialogue), Zafirah, and even the Commander all do this (while all the same they happen to completely ignore Aurene's multiple visions of the future, focusing solely on Kralkatorrik's prophecy).

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  • Danikat.8537Danikat.8537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @DonArkanio.6419 said:
    Why do you think Devs went for Aurene instead?
    I don't really understand what is the reasoning behind bringing a whole new character to the table if we already have an established one.

    For the plot of Season 2 and Heart of Thorns, a 250 year old dragon couldn't really fill the role of something vulnerable and important to Glint's legacy. So it makes sense to go for an egg there, and after you protect the egg, it only makes sense for a plot where it hatches and needs to grow, so then Season 3's involvement with Aurene makes sense.

    At that point, the writers are attached to the character (and believe the players in majority are) and make them "the Scion" rather than "a Scion". But at the same time, their plot direction of Kralkatorrik's weakness being his own grandchildren - again, putting a 250 year old dragon with combat experience into the position of a hostage that's being drained is a lot less believable than putting an infant dragon in that situation. So they did away with Vlast so that Aurene could fill that role.

    I can definitely see their mentality through and through. I just don't think Aurene was a good candidate yet. She should have not replaced Kralkatorrik, but rather another dragon.

    I suspect they wanted to avoid another Kormir/Traherne situation. As discussed Vlast was older, more experienced and more powerful. He would be in every way senior not only to Aurene but to the player character as well. We could maybe share our experiences of fighting Zhaitan and Mordremoth to give him some ideas, and act as an ambassador to coordinate between Vlast and the Pact but when it came to figuring out how to fight Kralkatorrik and certainly in any combat situation we'd be taking a back seat, something Guild Wars players have typically resented. They could probably have found a way around that, but I suspect it would have taken some very convoluted writing to justify us having any kind of meaningful role in the battle. (Personally I think that could be a really good story, just not the kind of one a large number of Guild Wars players have said they want in this game.)

    Whereas with Aurene it was relatively simple because she saw the player character as a parental figure so even after she's ascended and ready to fight Kralk and take his place she still sees you as at least an equal (however inaccurate that might be) and wants to fight him together, often with the player character taking the lead.

    That might change in future, now she's an elder dragon and the player character is still her champion. But that will probably be ok because from our perspective it will be more like she's taking a back seat and giving us missions to fulfil rather than taking over, which is what players have resented in the past.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Side tangent: It's rather annoying, to me, that we had spent 6 years building up and working with the notion of an ever-changing future that is nigh impossible to accurately prophecize, all for Episode 5 and 6 to be solely about an inevitable future that will occur just because it was prophecized.

    To be fair that prophesised future only came about because a lot of people, who had been told the prophecy, put a huge amount of time and effort into making sure it happened. It's possible it was in a sense a self-fulfilling prophecy and if we hadn't been told that's what would happen we wouldn't have tried to make it happen, and then it wouldn't have. And even then in-universe there was no guarantee we'd succeed.

    The real reason it all worked out is that (contrary to popular belief) Anet weren't ready to end the Guild Wars franchise here and the only alternative was that the player character, Aurene and a large chunk of the Pact are killed, Kralk survives, the world continues to be an unbalanced mess of loose magic and insane elder dragons consuming all they can until one or the other destroys Tyria. If anything survives that it would take thousands of years for the world to recover and it would be totally different to before - even more so than last time the dragons rose.

    Danielle Aurorel - Desolation EU. Mini Collector.

    "I know that I'm born and I know that I'll die, the in-between is mine."

  • lakdav.3694lakdav.3694 Member ✭✭✭

    Hmm, okay, let's say it goes like that then. Vlast and Aurene are both alive then, as well as the Commander. Nobody needs to be sacrificed. Joko is not antagonized in the Domain of the Lost, and somehow he doesn't look immediately for an excuse to go aggressive on Tyria. Vlast eats up some of Balthazar's magic, Kralkatorrik eats up the rest, and maybe Aurene gets some from half a world away. Vlast beats Kralkatorrik with the Pact in Thunderhead (or even sooner with the first Dragonsblood spear. Vlast ascends to replace Kralkatorrik in the All. Where does this leave Aurene? She doesn't get much from either Balthazar, or Kralkatorrik. Maybe Vlast would selflessly share the magic of Zhaitan, Mordremoth and what Balthazar sucked away from Jormag and Primordus, with Aurene to help manage it. How ready would she be to take anything without the path she went through, and how relevant would season2-3 feel, if Vlast just swooped in at the start of PoF and drew all the plot relevance that was previously built up for Aurene?
    I think it would be very confusing and disappointing for anyone who never knew about a first scion... basically anyone who haven't played that one last challenge mission in GW1- Eye of the North where Vlast was introduced … as Gleam… basically just sitting around.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    On the Glint-Kralkatorrik fight:

    I think Glint was hedging her bets there. She'd probably have been happy if she had defied the odds and succeeded, and would have been able to absorb Kralkatorrik's magic and ascend there and then if the group had succeeded. But she knew the odds were against her, so she sent all of her retainers away so they didn't go down with her.

    One observation that we could make from E5 and E6 was that Rytlock wasn't as close to winning as he thought - even with "real" spears, it takes a pretty thorough beating to render Kralkatorrik externally helpless, and then it took someone flying into him with a spear and fighting the manifestation of Kralkatorrik's madness to finish him off... and even then, without a scion present, Rytlock probably wouldn't have had the assistance of Saneatorrik, making it that much harder to get to the heart in the first place. Snaff being inside Kralkatorrik's mind meant that it might not have been completely impossible to kill Kralk at that time, but it certainly wasn't just a matter of landing that spear once as Rytlock thought.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Saneatorrik 😂

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lakdav.3694 said:
    Hmm, okay, let's say it goes like that then. Vlast and Aurene are both alive then, as well as the Commander. Nobody needs to be sacrificed. Joko is not antagonized in the Domain of the Lost, and somehow he doesn't look immediately for an excuse to go aggressive on Tyria. Vlast eats up some of Balthazar's magic, Kralkatorrik eats up the rest, and maybe Aurene gets some from half a world away. Vlast beats Kralkatorrik with the Pact in Thunderhead (or even sooner with the first Dragonsblood spear. Vlast ascends to replace Kralkatorrik in the All. Where does this leave Aurene? She doesn't get much from either Balthazar, or Kralkatorrik. Maybe Vlast would selflessly share the magic of Zhaitan, Mordremoth and what Balthazar sucked away from Jormag and Primordus, with Aurene to help manage it. How ready would she be to take anything without the path she went through, and how relevant would season2-3 feel, if Vlast just swooped in at the start of PoF and drew all the plot relevance that was previously built up for Aurene?
    I think it would be very confusing and disappointing for anyone who never knew about a first scion... basically anyone who haven't played that one last challenge mission in GW1- Eye of the North where Vlast was introduced … as Gleam… basically just sitting around.

    I don't think it would steal Aurene's plot relevance- quite the opposite, I think they could have framed it so that Aurene was in a much better place to deal with the next Elder Dragon than the version we got was to deal with Kralk. Instead of giving her a character arc where her important moments were all fleeing or having conversations offscreen that we weren't privy to, they could've taken the time for the Commander (and Caithe, if they still wanted her) to work with Aurene to try to figure out how to follow in Vlast's footsteps. Instead of having her abruptly shoot to higher power levels because that's what the time crunch required, we could have had a more even progression, with ElderVlast modulating as needed. We wouldn't have been faced with a situation where a 20,000+ year old monstrosity who's become more powerful than any entity we've ever heard of in the lore had to be taken down by a three year old with about a year's worth of actual combat experience. And, knowing that the world can survive with four dragons, with Kralk dead and Primordus and Jormag in a state where ANet can decide to send them back into hibernation, that could've meant Aurene's ascension upon Bubbles' demise could also mark the end of the Elder Dragon plot, which would nicely tie the main story arc at launch and what they're describing as the main story arc now into one package.

    Although I did like what they did with Vlast. It's an angle on character death we don't often see, and it worked well with the character they established for him. In hindsight, I think the ideal would've been to have Glint around instead of killing her off practically before they'd started... never did understand that choice.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    Although I did like what they did with Vlast. It's an angle on character death we don't often see, and it worked well with the character they established for him. In hindsight, I think the ideal would've been to have Glint around instead of killing her off practically before they'd started... never did understand that choice.

    Rather agree there. I've kind of felt like the plot of Edge of Destiny is what the GW2 launch storyline should have been. Except for the downright devastating failure. It just felt weird to make Glint such a critical figure in the plot, who manages to still involve herself periodically, well after killing her off. And it always seemed like a bad move to kill an Elder Dragon right away - putting one into a temporary hibernation for it to wake later (e.g., Season 3's outcome) would have been better for a first plot.

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    All these squares make a circle.
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  • I wonder if we will ever see a revived Risen Vlast from Aurene so he could be come a new ED or general.

  • DonArkanio.6419DonArkanio.6419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @starhunter.6015 said:
    I wonder if we will ever see a revived Risen Vlast from Aurene so he could be come a new ED or general.

    Do you think it could actually be a good story direction?

  • @DonArkanio.6419 said:

    @starhunter.6015 said:
    I wonder if we will ever see a revived Risen Vlast from Aurene so he could be come a new ED or general.

    Do you think it could actually be a good story direction?

    No idea, but then Anet is known for not having any real story direction. Just look at all the loose ends still floating around .

  • Could Vlast be a better candidate than Aurene?

    No he lost.

  • DonArkanio.6419DonArkanio.6419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aylpse.6280 said:

    Could Vlast be a better candidate than Aurene?

    No he lost.

    But so would Aurene against Balthazar on her own. right?

  • @DonArkanio.6419 said:

    @Aylpse.6280 said:

    Could Vlast be a better candidate than Aurene?

    No he lost.

    But so would Aurene against Balthazar on her own. right?

    Balthazar was the Elder Dragon we needed but don't deserve.

  • @starhunter.6015 said:
    I wonder if we will ever see a revived Risen Vlast from Aurene so he could be come a new ED or general.

    Given Vlast exploded himself to force Balthazar back, I feel this is unlikely. But Kralkatorrik put together an exploded Shatterer so it isn't beyond the realm of impossibility.

    A Risen Glint might be more likely though, given Vlast's depression.

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