What your feeling on Forced Engagement and Dwarf in general? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

What your feeling on Forced Engagement and Dwarf in general?

Knighthonor.4061Knighthonor.4061 Member ✭✭✭✭

Dwarf use to be the go to defensive legend but seem to be slacking now days. Now Demon is a better break bar breaker than Dwarf and Demon is good at defense and stun breaks. The Heal on Dwarf seem to be the only thing best about it.
Rite of the Dwarfs just been trash. It cost energy even when interrupted and cost too much. The damage reduction not really all that in today's pvp for its cost and duration.
IR honestly need quicker activation and some better damage and effects. Would be nice if it had some break bar breaking effect to it of some kind. Need some kind of additional effect honestly.
I feel Forced Engagement should be moved to a unique F2 ability or something. It's a bad useless skill. When HoT was coming out I was pretty hyped up for the Taunt condition, but it's been pretty underwhelming since it's introduction. Having a whole skill dedicated to it just been a slap in the face especially how undertuned it is. Just get rid of it and replace it with something better and useful.

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Comments

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Knighthonor.4061 said:
    Dwarf use to be the go to defensive legend .

    Really? I thought it was Glint.

    Personnally I never considered it as a defensive legend, maybe as an occasionnal source of defensive support at best due to inspiring reinforcement. Even for that, I think the legendary demon was better.

    I may be an exception but I mainly considered this legend as a power damage legend, certainly not as a defensive legend. I'd consider it a defensive legend if rite of the great dwarf hadn't a cast time, if the energy and CD cost of the skills weren't so high and if inspiring reinforcement and vengeful hammer weren't good damage sources. However, that's not the case.

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Jalis is is weak, not as bad as Mallyx but not much reason to use him except maybe in WvW zergs. That's from a perspective of a guy which doesn't do raids.

  • @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Knighthonor.4061 said:
    Dwarf use to be the go to defensive legend .

    Really? I thought it was Glint.

    Personnally I never considered it as a defensive legend, maybe as an occasionnal source of defensive support at best due to inspiring reinforcement. Even for that, I think the legendary demon was better.

    I may be an exception but I mainly considered this legend as a power damage legend, certainly not as a defensive legend. I'd consider it a defensive legend if rite of the great dwarf hadn't a cast time, if the energy and CD cost of the skills weren't so high and if inspiring reinforcement and vengeful hammer weren't good damage sources. However, that's not the case.

    utility and elite skill for damage reduction and generating stability not referring to defensive legend at all? :D

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kravey.4563 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Knighthonor.4061 said:
    Dwarf use to be the go to defensive legend .

    Really? I thought it was Glint.

    Personnally I never considered it as a defensive legend, maybe as an occasionnal source of defensive support at best due to inspiring reinforcement. Even for that, I think the legendary demon was better.

    I may be an exception but I mainly considered this legend as a power damage legend, certainly not as a defensive legend. I'd consider it a defensive legend if rite of the great dwarf hadn't a cast time, if the energy and CD cost of the skills weren't so high and if inspiring reinforcement and vengeful hammer weren't good damage sources. However, that's not the case.

    utility and elite skill for damage reduction and generating stability not referring to defensive legend at all? :D

    Not enough indeed, especially due to the pitiable level of damage mitigation. The legend itself is more often used for damage than it is used for defense. Glint's heal skill make the revenant tankier than the whole jalis skill kit and this since the revenant was released. referring to jalis as "the defensive legend" just feel strange. It might have been ANet purpose when they decided to create it but they never achieved something that made me think: "Ah yes! That's a defensive legend!"

  • alain.1659alain.1659 Member ✭✭✭

    Revenant is a great class on paper but really meh in game. The energy costs, skills and traitlines need a good rework to save revenant. Jalis seems to be designed as a tanky legend but even mallyx is better than it. Instead of taunt I would like to have a dash skill similar to bulls charge (this solves the mobility issue). Elite also needs a rework. It should not need a gm talent to work vs condi. And definitely should be an insta cast.

  • ArthurDent.9538ArthurDent.9538 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 17, 2019

    For pvp jalis is great except the cast time on RotGD completely kills it for high level as you will basically have a stunbreak with a massive 40 energy cost and no secondary effects as you will almost always have to dodge and cancel the cast since channeling a 1.25 sec unprotected cast time after being stunned is generally suicidal. Which would be bearable if it wasn't the only stunbreak on the kit, but it is, and thus is always either an overpriced stunbreak or an overpriced damage reduction tool and you can almost never get the benefit of both at the same time which makes the 40 energy cost excessive.

    For pve, jalis fits pretty well into the power rev kit, it's single target dps isn't as good as glint or shiro but it has better cleave damage than shiro, some stability to share, better self sustain, and surprisingly tremendous breakbar cc with forced engagement being 500 breakbar (potentially 1000 if running full condi duration for some reason) though it takes a few seconds and there are sometimes other sources of slow to make that part redundant. It's not used in any big dps builds but power rev damage is bad in general and there are definitely times to use it over shiro or even kalla for alacrigade builds.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 17, 2019

    quintessential example of how an assigned style ruined a set of skills. what are dwarves? slow. guess what? slow isn't tanky lol.

    Te lazla otstra.
    nerf list

  • Knighthonor.4061Knighthonor.4061 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    quintessential example of how an assigned style ruined a set of skills. what are dwarves? slow. guess what? slow isn't tanky lol.

    Apparently the Dwarfs took on a magical ritual to become more tougher against a threat to life on the planet. So yeah they know defense.

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2019

    PvP Taunt in all forms is a cancer. Revenant is a perfect example of flavor over function, which is why it is only viable in PvP because it is literally just Thief with Defiant Stance, and how anet has been desperately trying to shoehorn it into PvE groups with arbitrary buffs like free, permanent alacrity.

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Forced Engagement is a pretty decent skill in my eyes. Although I dislike the direction that they took of increased cooldowns and decreased energy costs, it works pretty well for FE. The skill does not require you to face the target and that alone allows for some very nice combos. Personally, I would like for it to receive a tether-like functionality. This would give it a couple additional features:
    -Have it reveal. Straightforward. You are forced to fight a taunted foe and should therefore not be able to stealth. Glint already has access to a reveal, but neither have inherent mobility beyond swiftness and/or superspeed. Classes with stealth access have high mobility access, so I think this is a fair implementation for a non-overtuned legend.
    -If an enemy breaks the taunt, they are weakened and you are granted fury. Sure, this is a flavor thing, but it has actual practicality.

    Healing orbs are a mistake. Please delete them ANet.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2019

    Personally, my thoughts are:

    1) Forced Engagement's chain is reminiscent of dragonhunter F1. Give it a flipover pull.

    2) Dwarf Stance is now the only stance that doesn't have a trait that provides a benefit of some kind when using its skills. Shiro has Notoriety, Mallyx has Demonic Defiance, Ventari has Generous Abundance, Glint has Draconic Echo, Kalla has All for One. A trait that provides approximately one second of stability when starting activation on Dwarf skills (essentially, cover stability) would probably solve a lot of Dwarf Stance's problems while also making Retribution more attractive. (Especially if it replaced one or more of the current Retaliation traits and granted a second or two of Retaliation when using any legend skill.)

    At the moment, it honestly feels like Devastation pairs better with Jalis than Retribution does, which feels... off.

  • Catchyfx.5768Catchyfx.5768 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2019

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Personally, my thoughts are:

    1) Forced Engagement's chain is reminiscent of dragonhunter F1. Give it a flipover pull.

    2) Dwarf Stance is now the only stance that doesn't have a trait that provides a benefit of some kind when using its skills. Shiro has Notoriety, Mallyx has Demonic Defiance, Ventari has Generous Abundance, Glint has Draconic Echo, Kalla has All for One. A trait that provides approximately one second of stability when starting activation on Dwarf skills (essentially, cover stability) would probably solve a lot of Dwarf Stance's problems while also making Retribution more attractive. (Especially if it replaced one or more of the current Retaliation traits and granted a second or two of Retaliation when using any legend skill.)

    At the moment, it honestly feels like Devastation pairs better with Jalis than Retribution does, which feels... off.

    This new trait will help mallyx while casting his stunbreak as well imho increasing his ability to cast spells while under preasure(if it will work like notoriety)

    I like that

    Jokaurene

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Knighthonor.4061 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    quintessential example of how an assigned style ruined a set of skills. what are dwarves? slow. guess what? slow isn't tanky lol.

    Apparently the Dwarfs took on a magical ritual to become more tougher against a threat to life on the planet. So yeah they know defense.

    right, so cuz of theme something shouldn't work effectively.

    Te lazla otstra.
    nerf list

  • Knighthonor.4061Knighthonor.4061 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Knighthonor.4061 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    quintessential example of how an assigned style ruined a set of skills. what are dwarves? slow. guess what? slow isn't tanky lol.

    Apparently the Dwarfs took on a magical ritual to become more tougher against a threat to life on the planet. So yeah they know defense.

    right, so cuz of theme something shouldn't work effectively.

    No I was addressing what you said about Dwarfs not being tanky.

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Idk a few people use it in wvw zerging.
    That chain skill can really ruin a glass cannon's day.

    I think the premise of trying to facetank with a revenant is probably part of the issue, just don't do it. Jalis is as necessary for wvw as Kalla, Mallyx and Ventari.

    Ventari < FB
    Mallyx < Scourge
    Kalla < Herald
    Jalis < FB/Spellbreaker

    I doubt they could ever buff jalis enough to be as tanky as a spellbreaker or as versatile as a support FB

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • DonArkanio.6419DonArkanio.6419 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 19, 2019

    Well,

    Forced Engagement should imo pierce. It doesn't have to taunt all the players it passes through, but making it pierce could increase its functionality.

    Currently, Ranger has a better Taunt than Jalis. That doesn't sound promising.

    As for the rest of Jalis. I think it doesn't fullfil its role 100%, just like any other Legend.
    The problem is that it's not tanky, it doesn't provide CC, it doesn't provide any protection outsider of RotG, the FE is unreliable, the total cost of his abilities is 90 + upkeep.

    Instead of focusing on a single Legend ANet Has to look at the whole Revenant. You can't just buff Vengeful Hammers and hope Revenant's survivability increases making Jalis more tanky.

    Once you pick a Legend, you should utilize its playstyle. And because classes are based on their Weapon-skills, Revenant is locked into this weird Hybrid (not really) playstyle.

    • give Retribution more identity
    • giving Stability applies Barrier
    • Forced Engagement pierce
    • RotG Chills on finishing cast
    • give Retribution a Hammer Trait
    • Hammer doesn't work well with Jalis
    • Jalis could use a semi-Bull's Charge
    • Jalis needs to be tanky or have high CC Access

    I guess there is more, but I can't think of any atm.

    I just think that we have too many expectations from Revenant overall, which can't be fulfilled.

    Unless ANet decides to change a major chunk of the class, single Legend tweaks won't make a difference.
    Did Herald get a rework? Not really, just some buffs.

  • alain.1659alain.1659 Member ✭✭✭

    @Justine.6351 said:
    Idk a few people use it in wvw zerging.

    Ventari < FB
    Mallyx < Scourge
    Kalla < Herald
    Jalis < FB/Spellbreaker

    This. Rev cant do anything better than anyone yet it needs the same ampunt of talents/gear to perform. If a legend swap would adjust attributes accordingly to its role, it would be acceptable. It might be a jack of all trades class when devs first put it on paper but it is not now. There are really good revs dont get me wrong. But it feels like everything can be done far superior with another profession.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 19, 2019

    @Justine.6351 said:
    Idk a few people use it in wvw zerging.
    That chain skill can really ruin a glass cannon's day.

    I think the premise of trying to facetank with a revenant is probably part of the issue, just don't do it. Jalis is as necessary for wvw as Kalla, Mallyx and Ventari.

    Ventari < FB
    Mallyx < Scourge
    Kalla < Herald
    Jalis < FB/Spellbreaker

    I doubt they could ever buff jalis enough to be as tanky as a spellbreaker or as versatile as a support FB

    Want me to insert here a commander video while on zerker and jalis??

    We were using 3 jalis and 1 ventari.

    Jallis in group is great , the spin hammer reduce damage and do decent damage when spiked, they do small funny heals as well.
    Stability carpet is a very good skill its easy to use, easy to stack and iu think im ok with the damage, the elite is really amazing since won’t be stripped.
    Taunt also helps taking less damage to the jalis user.

    Spammers want to ruin it because isnt a fb?????

    @DonArkanio.6419, in group jalis works with hammer...amazingly lol... yes it doesnt carry, not everything needs to stack to carry noobs like fb and scourge stacking ehehehe XD.

    @alain.1659 Problem with ventari is that game is all about boon stacking, ANet made game so dumb that anything else is almost not needed... reason ventari isnt much used and tends to be extremelly dificult to be efficient with it.
    I play ventari/herald in WvW..... and actually dropped playing guardian long time ago, amazing heals altough u need to predict the spike zone, clear condis, KB the warrior bubble on their pushes..

    Its a game design issue towards spam .. that is putting good designed classes/roles into oblivion.

    I kinda feel that some portion of this thread have a bit "OMG class cant carry me" issue...

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @Justine.6351 said:
    Idk a few people use it in wvw zerging.
    That chain skill can really ruin a glass cannon's day.

    I think the premise of trying to facetank with a revenant is probably part of the issue, just don't do it. Jalis is as necessary for wvw as Kalla, Mallyx and Ventari.

    Ventari < FB
    Mallyx < Scourge
    Kalla < Herald
    Jalis < FB/Spellbreaker

    I doubt they could ever buff jalis enough to be as tanky as a spellbreaker or as versatile as a support FB

    Want me to insert here a commander video while on zerker and jalis??

    We were using 3 jalis and 1 ventari.

    Jalis is quite nice, the spin hammer reduce damage and do decent damage when spiked, they do small funny heals as well.
    Stability carpet is a very good skill, the elite is really amazing since won’t be stripped.
    Taunt also helps taking less damage to the jalis user.

    Spammers want to ruin it???

    You can command on anything with a dozen firebrands, scrappers and scourges...
    But do you know why fb is the better choice? Because it isn't 95% selfish survivability and actually supports people for more than 5 seconds.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 19, 2019

    @Justine.6351 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @Justine.6351 said:
    Idk a few people use it in wvw zerging.
    That chain skill can really ruin a glass cannon's day.

    I think the premise of trying to facetank with a revenant is probably part of the issue, just don't do it. Jalis is as necessary for wvw as Kalla, Mallyx and Ventari.

    Ventari < FB
    Mallyx < Scourge
    Kalla < Herald
    Jalis < FB/Spellbreaker

    I doubt they could ever buff jalis enough to be as tanky as a spellbreaker or as versatile as a support FB

    Want me to insert here a commander video while on zerker and jalis??

    We were using 3 jalis and 1 ventari.

    Jalis is quite nice, the spin hammer reduce damage and do decent damage when spiked, they do small funny heals as well.
    Stability carpet is a very good skill, the elite is really amazing since won’t be stripped.
    Taunt also helps taking less damage to the jalis user.

    Spammers want to ruin it???

    You can command on anything with a dozen firebrands, scrappers and scourges...
    But do you know why fb is the better choice? Because it isn't 95% selfish survivability and actually supports people for more than 5 seconds.

    Neither jalis is....while it can still aplly devastating damage...
    Sounds pretty much to me u dont understand rev :\ and u guys are way to much blind by the aoe and stack/spam metas, it doesnt need to be better, a group of firebrands can not be enough to catch a aoe bomb zone, now if u have your party organized, a 50% damage reducer m8 be what players need to withstand and dodge while being healed, that what jallis is for, it doesnt need to be like a FB..
    At the end both help each other....

    Ventari and Jalis are not ment to be as good or worse than FB nor scourges, they have their roles, to reduce damage(delay damage depletting faster and do really some good damage with hammer) with the adition of huge heal spikes with ventari tablet(that's by far the only healing skill ventari has...), just like gw1 had infused health skill, patient spirit, and prot monks, this is what jalis and ventari are....
    F2 on herald/jalis can be a passive damage reducer for 10 players, now had protection, and tell me the FB dont apreaciate it rather than try the overhealing gameplay that gw2 allows.

    IMO they are weak at most eyes cause most tend to run builds and classes that tend to carry in most situations or they end being to easy has in low effort gameplay, rather than actually find strategy and mechanics to solve situations.

    Herald on pleb healing stats is a 1khp passive heal to 10 players.. just 1 passive skill alone. (basicly gives to 10 players a old warrior healing signet on steroids.... wiht 5k heals on staff and shield wich can blast remove condis )

    EDIT: maybe Anet could return the aoe stun breaker from jalis elite :\ that would be a super improvement, and maybe taunt needs to be stronger if pve version of 4sec is 2 strong then 2sec is to weak :} ....

    @Buran.3796, Mallys e-management is a pain.. dev's need to play that thing asap to see how burden it is, kinda feel they want us to camp on its elite and play for the 40 torment stacks aoe....

  • alain.1659alain.1659 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @alain.1659 Problem with ventari is that game is all about boon stacking, ANet made game so dumb that anything else is almost not needed... reason ventari isnt much used and tends to be extremelly dificult to be efficient with it.
    I play ventari/herald in WvW..... and actually dropped playing guardian long time ago, amazing heals altough u need to predict the spike zone, clear condis, KB the warrior bubble on their pushes..

    Its a game design issue towards spam .. that is putting good designed classes/roles into oblivion.

    I kinda feel that some portion of this thread have a bit "OMG class cant carry me" issue...

    You are right about game being a boon spam. Just tried fb tonight and boons were just flying in the air. It is easier and more useful than any support I have tried, like tempest, scrapper or rev. Yet about boons, sadly the meta is based on them. So either other professions should be nerfed or rev should be buffed a little to compete with them.

    Ps: any ventari or general rev advices are welcomed :)

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 20, 2019

    @alain.1659 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @alain.1659 Problem with ventari is that game is all about boon stacking, ANet made game so dumb that anything else is almost not needed... reason ventari isnt much used and tends to be extremelly dificult to be efficient with it.
    I play ventari/herald in WvW..... and actually dropped playing guardian long time ago, amazing heals altough u need to predict the spike zone, clear condis, KB the warrior bubble on their pushes..

    Its a game design issue towards spam .. that is putting good designed classes/roles into oblivion.

    I kinda feel that some portion of this thread have a bit "OMG class cant carry me" issue...

    You are right about game being a boon spam. Just tried fb tonight and boons were just flying in the air. It is easier and more useful than any support I have tried, like tempest, scrapper or rev. Yet about boons, sadly the meta is based on them. So either other professions should be nerfed or rev should be buffed a little to compete with them.

    Ps: any ventari or general rev advices are welcomed :)

    I dont think Ventari itself needs too much. IMO a 2 second cooldown on Ventari's Will would offer a huuuuge increase in its reliability. They could put a 3s ICD on Blinding Truths to prevent more blindspam. Beyond that I really do think Purifying Essence could be increased to 30e in order to grant it a self-stunbreak functionality and increase it to 4 conditions cleansed. It's easy to say it doesn't need a stunbreak when you have a gaggle of FBs covering your kitten in stab, but the spec is laughably easy to shut down if it's the solo support. Also, regen needs to be implemented into its kit, whether it be through a trait or its base kit.

    Now the healing orbs, which were supposed to offer healing possibilities outside of Ventari...don't get me started on those.

    Healing orbs are a mistake. Please delete them ANet.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭

    All they need to do for Forced Engagement is make it a non projectile taunt.

    That projectile is not only blocked by bodies, it also has a slow travel time, issues which almost every slow projectile skill in the game suffer from (like Scorpion Wire, Glint shield 4 and Spectral Grasp)

    As for Rite of the Dwarf, I like it as a passive and an Ancient Echo, but yea the Elite skill version of it is pretty garbage.

    Jalis could be tweaked to :

    -Heal with Condition Cleanse
    -Forced Engagement with no projectile, being a simple targeted taunt (and this isn't op or broken since many other skills in the game are also targetted CC)
    -Stunbreak Rite of the Great Dwarf, reduces incoming damage for 3s after casting with a 30 Energy cost, bringing it more in line with other Legend Stunbreaks
    -Hammers
    -Elite should be the brick road, but a toggle. Functions similarly to Scourge's Trail of Anguish, pulsing stability to allies on it, damages enemies if they cross or step onto the brick road.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'd probably keep Rite as the elite for thematic and trait proc reasons, even if the other changes are made.

    How expensive do you see the road being? Four pips, so it can be used with hammers, or more?

  • KidRoleplay.3615KidRoleplay.3615 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 22, 2019

    I feel Forced Engagement could use one extra second of its condi application in PvP/WvW. Not enough to be OP, but enough to have it be respected.

    Rite of the Great Dwarf feels like a very expensive stun break while its actual effect I feel isn't even helping. I'm sure it probably is, but it doesn't feel like it's doing anything. Maybe it could also supply partywide retaliation?

    Other than that, I'm fine with Dwarf. Wouldn't touch a thing.

    EDIT: Just thought of something. Add a 1/4 second daze to the initial hit of Forced Engagement to allow it to actually interrupt mobs in PvE instead of it just saying it does.

  • DonArkanio.6419DonArkanio.6419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KidRoleplay.3615 said:
    I feel Forced Engagement could use one extra second of its condi application in PvP/WvW. Not enough to be OP, but enough to have it be respected.

    Rite of the Great Dwarf feels like a very expensive stun break while its actual effect I feel isn't even helping. I'm sure it probably is, but it doesn't feel like it's doing anything. Maybe it could also supply partywide retaliation?

    Other than that, I'm fine with Dwarf. Wouldn't touch a thing.

    EDIT: Just thought of something. Add a 1/4 second daze to the initial hit if Forced Engagement to allow it to actually interrupt mobs in PvE instead of it just saying it does.

    That’s exactly what I think of RotG. It’s such a great skill with such a great theme.

    My suggestion would be to interrupt / daze enemies on the initial cast of RotG. Just a 0.25s. Or make RotG grant barrier. This skill has to feel powerful. ATM I don’t feel the damage reduction at all.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The damage reduction is definitely noticeable if you're paying attention, just like Protection. It's just that taking reduced damage isn't as intuitively obvious as a barrier or a block, even if it does more.

  • When you compare rev to FB, rev is obviously gonna come up short on everything besides raw healing, which rev dominates. Thing is, most people don’t want raw healing. FB poops boons at ridiculous rates and it’s things like protection, aegis, and stability while being able to do respectable healing. FB can also buff people to receive more healing, and while this sounds like a good place for rev to jump in, it just ends up being that you take more FB’s; Ventari is also the hardest heal spec to play while FB is faceroll easy.

    So FB is the better boon support and utility healer, what about defense? Well FB wins here too. Jails as the defense focused legend has no skills that give protection...why? It gives 20% damage reduction on hammers and 50% on RotGD, but no protection boons for allies? Hammers are completely selfish, a single target taunt is laughable, as well as Anets attempts at making taunt be viable and increasing revs defense against taunted foes. IR needs to be an upkeep that pulses around the rev, not some dinky road that gets left behind and doesn’t even last long; rev as a heavy class is pathetic in terms of stability access. Heal is good, no complaints. The elite is good on paper, but everyone has already mentioned what’s wrong with it. IMO, this could also be an upkeep, making Jalis a kind of Glint but with more expensive upkeep’s that give stronger effects; make condition damage reduction baseline. FB gives retaliation, aegis, protection, stability, and a toughness buff from one skill on a cooldown less than 10 seconds, and a pulsing resistance field on a similar cooldown. Tell me why anyone would want a Jalis rev over a FB?

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 22, 2019

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    When you compare rev to FB, rev is obviously gonna come up short on everything besides raw healing, which rev dominates. Thing is, most people don’t want raw healing. FB poops boons at ridiculous rates and it’s things like protection, aegis, and stability while being able to do respectable healing. FB can also buff people to receive more healing, and while this sounds like a good place for rev to jump in, it just ends up being that you take more FB’s; Ventari is also the hardest heal spec to play while FB is faceroll easy.

    So FB is the better boon support and utility healer, what about defense? Well FB wins here too. Jails as the defense focused legend has no skills that give protection...why? It gives 20% damage reduction on hammers and 50% on RotGD, but no protection boons for allies? Hammers are completely selfish, a single target taunt is laughable, as well as Anets attempts at making taunt be viable and increasing revs defense against taunted foes. IR needs to be an upkeep that pulses around the rev, not some dinky road that gets left behind and doesn’t even last long; rev as a heavy class is pathetic in terms of stability access. Heal is good, no complaints. The elite is good on paper, but everyone has already mentioned what’s wrong with it. IMO, this could also be an upkeep, making Jalis a kind of Glint but with more expensive upkeep’s that give stronger effects; make condition damage reduction baseline. FB gives retaliation, aegis, protection, stability, and a toughness buff from one skill on a cooldown less than 10 seconds, and a pulsing resistance field on a similar cooldown. Tell me why anyone would want a Jalis rev over a FB?

    Rotgd reduces damage for 5 allies and affects golems and it’s easy to spam it, core rev can even apply it more times, if isn’t a boon means even better cause can’t be removed.....
    There a trait that also affects condi but on 90icd.

    I dont understand ur logic of boons are better than rotgd, jalis also applies direct uncorrupted 20% damage reducer on f2 from herald to 10 players, stability for allies as well, jalis don’t need to apply boons nor need to be a FB.

    Jalis is very viable and a different role from fb.
    Imagine jalis a class to make damage with support to reduce health being dropped so the firebrands can heal

    Fb is more a overall supporter, lots of heals and boons, and some defensive books to help party, in wich interact pretty well if I have a decent jalis user.
    Ventari for heals is another thing, in won’t replace fb, but will make life of the fb easier.

    Fb can’t catch huge spikes besides few skills, ventari has lots of 5k-11k direct heals, with a 1k passive to 10 players... 1k per sec..10 players regen, also fury might and prot o herald as passive.

    None can’t susbtitute each other, this 3 builds can complement each other.

    If u are on nsp or whenever u link to nsp, search XD guild and play with us.

  • It’s important to remember that A single legend is only about 23% of a Revenant’s toolkit. It isn’t a fair 1 to 1 comparison to say “why isn’t Jalis as good as FB” when Jalis is a total of 5 skills and FB is a total of 33. A more accurate comparison would be “why isn’t Revenant as good as FB (for support).”

    Legends don’t exist in a vacuum and so that should be factored into any critiques

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:
    It’s important to remember that A single legend is only about 23% of a Revenant’s toolkit. It isn’t a fair 1 to 1 comparison to say “why isn’t Jalis as good as FB” when Jalis is a total of 5 skills and FB is a total of 33. A more accurate comparison would be “why isn’t Revenant as good as FB (for support).”

    Legends don’t exist in a vacuum and so that should be factored into any critiques

    The thought did immediately strike me that if you were going for a protective rev, Jalis+Glint means you have good access to protection on Glint, and the 10% damage reduction (which stacks with protection) is also in the mix, although you can't provide both at the same time.

    It's also worth remembering that Firebrand has a fairly long cooldown on Tome of Courage - while they have access to decent support outside of ToC, you can't compare what a Firebrand can do with ToC up against what a revenant can do in a reasonably sustainable fashion.

  • Knighthonor.4061Knighthonor.4061 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 23, 2019

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:
    It’s important to remember that A single legend is only about 23% of a Revenant’s toolkit. It isn’t a fair 1 to 1 comparison to say “why isn’t Jalis as good as FB” when Jalis is a total of 5 skills and FB is a total of 33. A more accurate comparison would be “why isn’t Revenant as good as FB (for support).”

    Legends don’t exist in a vacuum and so that should be factored into any critiques

    The thought did immediately strike me that if you were going for a protective rev, Jalis+Glint means you have good access to protection on Glint, and the 10% damage reduction (which stacks with protection) is also in the mix, although you can't provide both at the same time.

    It's also worth remembering that Firebrand has a fairly long cooldown on Tome of Courage - while they have access to decent support outside of ToC, you can't compare what a Firebrand can do with ToC up against what a revenant can do in a reasonably sustainable fashion.

    Swap out Dwarf for Ventari. What changed?
    That's the thing, Dwarf is replaceable here compared to firebrand which is also its own set of 8 skills. Dwarf has 6 skills. Ret as well if you count that as its specializations and Firebrand. Most of the best support on Rev comes from other sources. Defense wise what does it provide really? Not even comparing to other classes here. But Inhouse. ROTGD is not all that. On paper yes but not in action. Pure avoidance is best defense. A short duration damage reduction effect that don't even effect conditions in its stock form is not really all that good. In WvW that damage reduction won't really save you in a zerg due to how stacked offensive DPS is in this game. Also it's 40 energy cost and cast time lol. Genius. Inspired Reinforcement after the nerf is straight up trash. Doesn't last long, stationary in a movement oriented game. Short duration, you name it. FI is trash. Garbage. FB has it as well and better. It was a poorly done condition in the first place. And one of our forced kills pretty much does that. Only good from it is the slow.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Knighthonor.4061 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:
    It’s important to remember that A single legend is only about 23% of a Revenant’s toolkit. It isn’t a fair 1 to 1 comparison to say “why isn’t Jalis as good as FB” when Jalis is a total of 5 skills and FB is a total of 33. A more accurate comparison would be “why isn’t Revenant as good as FB (for support).”

    Legends don’t exist in a vacuum and so that should be factored into any critiques

    The thought did immediately strike me that if you were going for a protective rev, Jalis+Glint means you have good access to protection on Glint, and the 10% damage reduction (which stacks with protection) is also in the mix, although you can't provide both at the same time.

    It's also worth remembering that Firebrand has a fairly long cooldown on Tome of Courage - while they have access to decent support outside of ToC, you can't compare what a Firebrand can do with ToC up against what a revenant can do in a reasonably sustainable fashion.

    Swap out Dwarf for Ventari. What changed?
    That's the thing, Dwarf is replaceable here compared to firebrand which is also its own set of 8 skills. Dwarf has 6 skills. Ret as well if you count that as its specializations and Firebrand. Most of the best support on Rev comes from other sources. Defense wise what does it provide really? Not even comparing to other classes here. But Inhouse. ROTGD is not all that. On paper yes but not in action. Pure avoidance is best defense. A short duration damage reduction effect that don't even effect conditions in its stock form is not really all that good. In WvW that damage reduction won't really save you in a zerg due to how stacked offensive DPS is in this game. Also it's 40 energy cost and cast time lol. Genius. Inspired Reinforcement after the nerf is straight up trash. Doesn't last long, stationary in a movement oriented game. Short duration, you name it. FI is trash. Garbage. FB has it as well and better. It was a poorly done condition in the first place. And one of our forced kills pretty much does that. Only good from it is the slow.

    Less damage reduction (except against projectiles), less stability, more healing, more alacrity.

    I should note that I am not saying that Jalis couldn't use some improvement, just that Jalis is always going to be part of a package, and it's not fair to compare anything to a theoretical firebrand that remains in Tome of Courage permanently.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 23, 2019
    1. Thematically its strong, and kind of fun to use.
    2. Its functionality is kinda meh, a lot like mallyx but not nearly as bad. Both of them need to be refreshed and re-done but
    3. WITH HOW THEY DO REWORKS FOR THIS CLASS I DON'T TRUST THEM TO NOT EITHER MESS IT UP OR GUT IT AND LEAVE IT TO DIE.
  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    1. Thematically its strong, and kind of fun to use.
    2. Its functionality is kinda meh, a lot like mallyx but not nearly as bad. Both of them need to be refreshed and re-done but
    3. WITH HOW THEY DO REWORKS FOR THIS CLASS I DON'T TRUST THEM TO NOT EITHER MESS IT UP OR GUT IT AND LEAVE IT TO DIE.

    That’s why it’s great lol... imo rev need to be looked further and just do minimal adjust to energy costs, for ex. Mallyx is a bit to expensive, maybe Ventari elite need more punch or other result, shiro healing skill is just a vampiric mod.
    Herald is somewhat ok since is a suporte damage helper.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    1. Thematically its strong, and kind of fun to use.
    2. Its functionality is kinda meh, a lot like mallyx but not nearly as bad. Both of them need to be refreshed and re-done but
    3. WITH HOW THEY DO REWORKS FOR THIS CLASS I DON'T TRUST THEM TO NOT EITHER MESS IT UP OR GUT IT AND LEAVE IT TO DIE.

    That’s why it’s great lol... imo rev need to be looked further and just do minimal adjust to energy costs, for ex. Mallyx is a bit to expensive, maybe Ventari elite need more punch or other result, shiro healing skill is just a vampiric mod.
    Herald is somewhat ok since is a suporte damage helper.

    Its functionality needs to be looked at and the synergies between legends needs to be worked on; An example is if you decide to be a condition healer there should be like grasping vines and thorns. Glint + Shrio should be different and the skills should have more effects, effectively the class itself doesn't feel that strong and alot of it is chalked up to other classes just overshadowing us. Why take a power revenant when warrior, or another class can do its job far better than it can or why take a condition rev when necromancer, guardian or heck messmer can do its job better with even more tools.

    We need some tricks, toys and overall enhancements to our kit and even the skill effects at this point seem so limited that we pale in comparison to those around us. Id argue that we just need a neutral legend who can fill in and change based on our desired build type but I don't think that is the problem. Core lacks a ranged condi-option which is kinda lame and does harm condi builds. But the recent rework of mallyx took the enjoyable aspects of his kit and basically just fudged them up, and increased cost on energy. (We either need energy cost or cooldowns one weapon-skills, id argue cooldowns are fine and utility skills for the most part use energy. This way weapon skills are used to build more energy more quickly, and then our utilities are the energy dumps.)

    We need a hard look at and they need to decide what legend does what, and give all of them tools to be good "On their own" and then make them synergize with one another more. Maybe two more utility skills for each core legend so we can pick a bit between which ones would work for us, some legends have really odd utility skills and some skills are complete trash. (Shiro's heal is kinda meh, another option could be good. Such as battle scars; Effectively making glints heal not the only one which functions as it does, which could mean shiro might work into more builds. Because on his own he has tools which could make it easier to choose. Just an Idea.)

    1. Legends need to be thematic, have interesting effects and specific and unique tools based around them. Currently they feel kind of meh; Which is probably why people dislike the energy system as it stands. Its cumbersome and paired with cool-downs and weaker versions of other professions tools it really just doesn't feel worth it, I love rev but it has its problems this is one of them.
    2. Some utility skills just suck; A lot of the time they aren't worth using and even if you could argue they are worth it (to you) the energy cost makes them harder to use properly. On top of that we now have more cool-downs being poured onto us because people are complaining about a class they don't understand, this adds more kitten on-top of the already cumbersome nature of the class. Glint I can understand having cool-downs on utility skills but someone like mallyx who already wasn't strong, and had a few tools? Jalis who doesn't really even have a roll? (lets not even address renegade at this point.)
    3. Our elite specs need a hard look at; Glint is fine and preforms fine sure. But kalla? Renegade is a raid spec; or an open world pve spec and it sucks in compeititve play against anyone who has a brain. THIS SHOULD NOT BE THE CASE. At least not with how we currently are; Rev should be applicable in all game modes despite what build they are running, since we are a jack of all trades. Either that or legends need to have defined and clear roles, that synergize with one another and above all compliment each other regardless of the combination. (Jalis = tanky, Kalla=Heal/dps support, Ventari =support, Shiro= power dps, Mallyx = condi dps, Glint = tanky/support) This way they all bring a niche and can work together; But they have all the tools required to really do their job. There is a reason you see nothing but glint/shiro in WvW or PvP its because out of all the legends (Maybe outside ventari, because he "Can" work depending on specific variables.) They function the best. Im not saying nerf this combo, im saying bring ALL the others up to their level and their functionality. Rework mallyx, make him strong and make him fun to play because now he is not fun at all and feels horrible. Jalis? I honestly don't recall the last time I used him. Ventari is fine for what he is. Shiro needs to have more to him than he currently does, we use him to close gaps and CC if not to add dps on his jade daggers. Staff 5 + Jade daggers or sword 3 +Jade daggers does good damage but he shouldn't be a lifesteal/dps mod.
    4. Fixing current legends would make it easier to add new ones; We need them all to be fun and something we choose between. Right now a lot of the choice is made for us because a lot of legends lack tools, people don't like gimping themselves for the sake of using a legend they like. A lot of people will move over to use what works, if it doesn't work it doesn't get used. Thats why our WvW and PvP builds haven't really changed much since HoT outside of the traits you removed, destroyed or flat just dinked with. I want to see revenant shine as what it was intended to be, not as whatever the team seems to think it should be because pigeon holing people is not what the class was founded around. A jack of all trades who sure wasn't a master, but preformed best as a hybrid who could deliver and fill whatever role its party needed the most and something that had tons of tools to work around specific situations.
    5. We could use one more weapon/weapon set, ranged condi. We could use another legend (not saying these are required but it would help a bit.) Using hammer as a condi rev in encounters that require range sucks.
  • DonArkanio.6419DonArkanio.6419 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 27, 2019

    This thread is becoming more about issues with Rev overall, but I understand why.

    If I was to stick to the Jalis example - This Legend is a fun concept that does not fulfill any of its roles.

    As said above - don't expect a single Legend to work like na entire Spec (even though it is technically a Spec). We always have to look at Revenant as a 50/50 choice.

    So, the way it works is always halved since we are able to immediately swap from Support mode to DPS mode (this isn't true, we know that it doesn't work).
    What I want to see with Revenant is being able to really change its playstyle based on Legend. This is none-existent. So what makes Revenant jack-of-all-trades? Nothing, literally nothing. Dwarf Stance doesn't synergize with the rest of Revenant's kit and Legends. As I said earlier - Hammer doesn't have a single trait related to it.

    Perhaps Devs made a class that is too much to handle for them?

    • Weapon-skills
    • Traits
    • Energy
    • Legends
    • Utilities
    • F-skills
    • CDs and spammable skills
    • Synergies between Legends
    • DPS, Tank, Support, Condition + Elites
    • Renegade

    I love the concept of this class but I feel it's going to stay this way.
    ANet either can't find a solution to make these all work or they just prefer to take care of other classes and don't care this much for Revenant since HoT launch.
    That's it for me.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DonArkanio.6419 said:
    So, the way it works is always halved since we are able to immediately swap from Support mode to DPS mode (this isn't true, we know that it doesn't work).
    What I want to see with Revenant is being able to really change its playstyle based on Legend. This is none-existent. So what makes Revenant jack-of-all-trades? Nothing, literally nothing. Dwarf Stance doesn't synergize with the rest of Revenant's kit and Legends. As I said earlier - Hammer doesn't have a single trait related to it.

    Dwarf actually synergises fairly well with Shiro (including Devastation) and Glint. Problem is that Shiro and Glint usually synergise even better with each other, so Jalis tends to get overshadowed.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @DonArkanio.6419 said:
    So, the way it works is always halved since we are able to immediately swap from Support mode to DPS mode (this isn't true, we know that it doesn't work).
    What I want to see with Revenant is being able to really change its playstyle based on Legend. This is none-existent. So what makes Revenant jack-of-all-trades? Nothing, literally nothing. Dwarf Stance doesn't synergize with the rest of Revenant's kit and Legends. As I said earlier - Hammer doesn't have a single trait related to it.

    Dwarf actually synergises fairly well with Shiro (including Devastation) and Glint. Problem is that Shiro and Glint usually synergise even better with each other, so Jalis tends to get overshadowed.

    Ventari goes well with herald as well(imo it’s what’s has better synergy). U can have ventari f2 afecting 10 players, since u go Ventari Player must be playing strong healing stats, wich will lead to outgoing heal modifiers and herald has a trait to improve rege , shield 4 is a 5k heal that also remove conditions, herald heal passive 1k regen heals to 10 players or 5 players with another heal on 3sec icd arround 1.5k.

    To amazing thing is that boon duration isn’t much needed due how rev works on this 2, so u can also focus on other stats.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭

    Forced engagement is a good interrupt/setup skill for any kind of burst/slow stacking.

    However it could use a cooldown treatment to 10 seconds with a higher cost energy of 20% like Banish Enchantments so that it can feel less lack luster for most since it's a single target skill as compared to Call of Anguish which can be much more risky yet rewarding to use, the majority of time you'll find yourself swapping legends and have it available again if needed while Forced Engagement annoyingly enough can still be on cooldown while going back to Dwarf which make the flow clunky, a lot of people wants the cooldown to go, but it needs to stay so we can avoid degenerating spam.

    It's current state, the skill deserves to have it's duration increased to 3 seconds, because 2 seconds is insignificant for it's effect or use opportunity if not for the suggested changes above. Using condition duration starts to make the skill useful but the trade off unless using condition damage isn't worth it. Having it up to 3 seconds would increase it's potent effects and justify the energy cost even more.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 27, 2019

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @DonArkanio.6419 said:
    So, the way it works is always halved since we are able to immediately swap from Support mode to DPS mode (this isn't true, we know that it doesn't work).
    What I want to see with Revenant is being able to really change its playstyle based on Legend. This is none-existent. So what makes Revenant jack-of-all-trades? Nothing, literally nothing. Dwarf Stance doesn't synergize with the rest of Revenant's kit and Legends. As I said earlier - Hammer doesn't have a single trait related to it.

    Dwarf actually synergises fairly well with Shiro (including Devastation) and Glint. Problem is that Shiro and Glint usually synergise even better with each other, so Jalis tends to get overshadowed.

    Glint and Shiro have the easiest playstyle that obeys PvP basic mentality but they are not the best synergy. A lot of Glint is wasted when using Shiro compared the other legends, Mallyx being the one benefiting best. People use Glint for the heal, after that the rest is just use said skill because they are stuck with those options that don't really benefit them outside of being an option they have.

    Infuse Light allows to heal more safely with Mallyx and stack potent counter pressure.
    You could argue that Gaze Of Darkness is relevant to Shiro pressuring targets that tries to kite, that applies to all Legends.
    Elemental Blast has much more utility out of Mallyx.
    Burst of Strength does favor a Shiro minded player, but it can also be used in Synergy with Sigil of Intelligence + Axe 4 (Also unblockable) before Legend Swapping as well as just plain old Unrelenting Assault buff.
    Chaotic Release is a CC, it's useful to all legends.

    This doesn't mention how Mallyx users can also allow themselves to keep Facets up to prolong their effects (Especially Facet Of Chaos) without hindering their performance as much.

    @DonArkanio.6419 said:
    This thread is becoming more about issues with Rev overall, but I understand why.

    Or that the majority of people expect too much from Rev, there's a lot of potential in all of the legends for each synergy. There is obviously some that favors others but it's not impossible to make the compromise and modification to achieve something one other profession can't.

    Revenant is by far the most versatile with the biggest L2P issues in the game. I just can't agree that you think Dwarf is absolutely pointless while in the right hands it can pretty much handle any situations right given the proper stats and opportunities used. Core Revenant in general is a plain beast with constant stunbreaks, you have to remember the concept and why they won't make it so similar to the expectations you would have from others with so much utility alone.

    If there was anything to be nerf, it would be Shiro Riposting Shadows to 20 endurance in PvP/WvW, then Magebane Tether would have to suffer the same with 1 Might in PvP/WvW. This would make mistakes much more meaningful.

    While anything to buff would be to give Purifying Essence from Ventari a stunbreak so that when you are in Legend, people don't just decide to spam CC until you're dead.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There's a certain element of truth in that Glint synergises with everything (well, not Kalla, obviously, but they would synergise if they could).

    I think it is reasonable to say that Glint synergises best with power or support builds, though. Core revenant only has one really condition-oriented weaponset (although this is more of an issue with core revenant than Glint, it's just that herald doesn't change this), and apart from the burn on Elemental Blast (which is comparable to the power damage of that skill anyway, so Elemental Blast is more hybrid than condition oriented unless you add Abyssal Chill) the consume skills are all power-oriented.

    Jalis and Shiro both fit into this category. Previously, the commonly accepted wisdom was that you went Shiro/Glint in PvP situations - where you need Shiro's toolset for mobility and to counter the abilities of other players - while in PvE situations, you could switch to Jalis, activate the hammers, and do well from there. The meta power DPS raid build for revenant used this principle for a while. In short, Shiro was what you used when you needed to react to what other players were doing, Jalis was what you used when it was about stacking on a target, surviving, and maybe tossing the odd CC.

    The rework to Facet of Nature, however, turned that around, since Shiro's Facet of Nature adds to DPS and sustain, while Jalis's only adds to sustain. As a result, the combination of Shiro's Facet of Nature and Impossible Odds means that Shiro now deals out more damage even to stationary, unreactive targets than Jalis does with the hammers. Ergo, Jalis gets pushed out of the PvE power DPS role in favour of Shiro.

    I think a few people have experimented with Jalis/Shiro core revenant, but the general consensus seems to still be that Shiro/Glint works better.

    Jalis still has its place - a Jalis/Glint rev probably still has more sustain than a Shiro/Glint rev, for instance, and doesn't have the problem of Shiro/Glint where both heals are conditional of remaining in the fight - but he is definitely looking a bit like the poor cousin, especially since Retribution isn't a particularly attractive traitline at the moment.

  • Catchyfx.5768Catchyfx.5768 Member ✭✭✭

    I have a question, is RotGD stackable with Protection boon ?
    For example it will be kinda unrealistic
    I'll go Jalis+Glint (Glint+Invo+Retribution)'


    Hardening Persistance (while Hammers and F2 active) = -6 upkeep = 6x1,5= 9% dmg reduction
    Close Quarters = while enemy above 360 distance we get = 10% dmg reduction
    Determined Resolution = 15% dmg reduction
    Vengeful Hammers = 20% dmg reduction
    Facet of Nature-Dwarf = 10% dmg reduction
    Protection = 33% dmg reduction
    RotGD = 50% dmg reduction


    9+10+15+20+10+33+50= 147% dmg reduction from range bigger then 360. But we all know it doesnt work like that.
    We have lot of dmg reducing traits that doesnt work together.


    Can anyone explain me which ones are stackable and which ones are not?

    Jokaurene

  • phokus.8934phokus.8934 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I’m almost 100% positive that damage reduction is multiplicative and not additive, say for a few scenarios. So 147% DR isn’t completely accurate.

  • As Phokus said above, most damage reduction is multiplicative. It's not that they don't stack, it's that they essentially have diminshing returns associated with stacking them

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 28, 2019

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    I think a few people have experimented with Jalis/Shiro core revenant, but the general consensus seems to still be that Shiro/Glint works better.

    I have, I prefer Jalis/Shiro over Glint/Shiro and it has shown more potential, not just as a duelist but also holding node. If it's not for the Reveal, the heal is again, all that people care about since the majority of players easily reset a revenant to 100%.

    Steadfast Rejuvenation is just too good when played right, that involves kitting like a warrior and with having so much more energy meaning more evades with weakness meaning more sustain. It's like instead of putting all of your bets on one skill (Infuse Light), you have more options to work with. Being that since you're not using an elite, you can also stack pretty powerful mix ups with Swift Termination + Sigil of Intelligence.

    Vengeful Hammers are also overlooked a lot, that 20% condition damage reduction goes a long way with the healing. Then there's Renegade with Jalis/Shiro that can stack up to 55% condition damage reduction + the passive healing.

    Also I did put up gameplay of Mallyx/Glint again, you can check it out on my recent posts on the forums.

  • Catchyfx.5768Catchyfx.5768 Member ✭✭✭

    @phokus.8934 said:
    I’m almost 100% positive that damage reduction is multiplicative and not additive, say for a few scenarios. So 147% DR isn’t completely accurate.

    Whats the difference? How is this working?

    Jokaurene

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