What your feeling on Forced Engagement and Dwarf in general? - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

What your feeling on Forced Engagement and Dwarf in general?

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  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 28, 2019

    @Catchyfx.5768 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    I’m almost 100% positive that damage reduction is multiplicative and not additive, say for a few scenarios. So 147% DR isn’t completely accurate.

    Whats the difference? How is this working?

    It treats the damage reducers one by One rather than sum all damage reducers.

  • phokus.8934phokus.8934 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Catchyfx.5768 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    I’m almost 100% positive that damage reduction is multiplicative and not additive, say for a few scenarios. So 147% DR isn’t completely accurate.

    Whats the difference? How is this working?

    Here’s a simplistic example:
    Additive
    y = 100 * (1 + (10% + 20%))
    y = 100 * 1.3
    y = 130

    Multiplicative
    y = 100 * (1 + (10% * 20%)
    y = 100 * 1.02
    y = 102

    So this is an extremely dumbed down version of how values are calculated in games but shows you the difference between the two.

    Damage Reduction is multiplicative because if it wasn’t then you could build characters to run complete damage mitigation on low cooldowns. The only exception that I know of comes from Guardian signet of judgement.

  • Scoobaniec.9561Scoobaniec.9561 Member ✭✭✭

    We used to have endure pain effect with prot, rite, vengeful hammers but they nerfed it ofc without buffing anything

  • LucianTheAngelic.7054LucianTheAngelic.7054 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 28, 2019

    @Catchyfx.5768 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    I’m almost 100% positive that damage reduction is multiplicative and not additive, say for a few scenarios. So 147% DR isn’t completely accurate.

    Whats the difference? How is this working?

    (Assuming Rite of the Great Dwarf + Protection + (for the hell of it) Vengeful Hammers)

    Additive Damage Reduction adds the values together and gives you your total damage reduction. Multiplicative multiplies the values instead. Multiplicative will always result in a lower value than Additive AND it can never reach 100% reduction; it's just not possible given how math works.

    Examples of both:

    Additive:
    First, get the values you're working with. For Additive, RotGD = 50% = 0.5, + Protection = 33% = .33, + and Vengeful Hammers = 20% = .2
    SO it would look like 0.5 + 0.33 + 0.2 = 1.03 = 103%. **
    If Additive damage reduction was used, then **the above combo would reduce damage by 103%, BUT this is not the case.

    The game uses Multiplicative which looks like this:
    Again, first get the values you're working with; they're going to be different than the additive equation. You want to subtract the above values from 1.0 to get your "multiplicative damage reduction" value.
    RotGD = 1.0 - 0.5 = 0.5, x Protection = 1.0 - 0.33 = 0.67, x VH = 1.0 - 0.2 = 0.8
    The final equation: 0.5 x 0.67 x 0.8 = .268
    You then take the value you get from that equation and subtract it from 1.0 to get your total damage reduction. 1.0 - 0.268 = 0.732
    So the total damage reduction for the combo above would be 73.2% of all incoming damage.

    If you want just RotGD + Protection it's 0.5 x 0.67 = 0.335
    1.0 - 0.335 = .665 = 66.5%
    SO in total, RotGD essentially adds 33.5% extra damage reduction WHILE you have Protection. It's still providing "50%," but in a multiplicative way, not additive. If you didn't have Protection, but had RotGD, you'd obviously have the full 50%.

    ALSO WORTH NOTING, TOUGHNESS WORKS THE SAME WAY. If anyone ever tells you "toughness is a terrible stat" or "not a great stat" this is why. You begin to get Diminishing Returns from Toughness if you stack it while also stacking other modifiers, like Protection and Vengeful Hammers. Stacking Vitality is almost always better (imo and also from a math perspective) since it gives you extra cushion against attacks, but also gives you more defense against conditions. Toughness does better the longer a fight goes on, as it has a chance to mitigate more damage, but doesn't do anything against conditions and leaves you more vulnerable to those. Vitality on the other hand is more effective at stopping initial bursts and less effective the longer the fight goes on, unless you can keep your health topped off.

    Sorry if this explanation is convoluted or confusing; I tried to lay it out the best I could

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    @Catchyfx.5768 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    I’m almost 100% positive that damage reduction is multiplicative and not additive, say for a few scenarios. So 147% DR isn’t completely accurate.

    Whats the difference? How is this working?

    (Assuming Rite of the Great Dwarf + Protection + (for the hell of it) Vengeful Hammers)

    Additive Damage Reduction adds the values together and gives you your total damage reduction. Multiplicative multiplies the values instead. Multiplicative will always result in a lower value than Additive AND it can never reach 100% reduction; it's just not possible given how math works.

    Examples of both:

    Additive:
    First, get the values you're working with. For Additive, RotGD = 50% = 0.5, + Protection = 33% = .33, + and Vengeful Hammers = 20% = .2
    SO it would look like 0.5 + 0.33 + 0.2 = 1.03 = 103%. **
    If Additive damage reduction was used, then **the above combo would reduce damage by 103%, BUT this is not the case.

    The game uses Multiplicative which looks like this:
    Again, first get the values you're working with; they're going to be different than the additive equation. You want to subtract the above values from 1.0 to get your "multiplicative damage reduction" value.
    RotGD = 1.0 - 0.5 = 0.5, x Protection = 1.0 - 0.33 = 0.67, x VH = 1.0 - 0.2 = 0.8
    The final equation: 0.5 x 0.67 x 0.8 = .268
    You then take the value you get from that equation and subtract it from 1.0 to get your total damage reduction. 1.0 - 0.268 = 0.732
    So the total damage reduction for the combo above would be 73.2% of all incoming damage.

    If you want just RotGD + Protection it's 0.5 x 0.67 = 0.335
    1.0 - 0.335 = .665 = 66.5%
    SO in total, RotGD essentially adds 33.5% extra damage reduction WHILE you have Protection. It's still providing "50%," but in a multiplicative way, not additive. If you didn't have Protection, but had RotGD, you'd obviously have the full 50%.

    ALSO WORTH NOTING, TOUGHNESS WORKS THE SAME WAY. If anyone ever tells you "toughness is a terrible stat" or "not a great stat" this is why. You begin to get Diminishing Returns from Toughness if you stack it while also stacking other modifiers, like Protection and Vengeful Hammers. Stacking Vitality is almost always better (imo and also from a math perspective) since it gives you extra cushion against attacks, but also gives you more defense against conditions. Toughness does better the longer a fight goes on, as it has a chance to mitigate more damage, but doesn't do anything against conditions and leaves you more vulnerable to those. Vitality on the other hand is more effective at stopping initial bursts and less effective the longer the fight goes on, unless you can keep your health topped off.

    Sorry if this explanation is convoluted or confusing; I tried to lay it out the best I could

    This is helpful, thank you very much actually. 33% additional from RotGD isn't too bad then.

    Healing orbs are a mistake. Please delete them ANet.

  • Catchyfx.5768Catchyfx.5768 Member ✭✭✭

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    @Catchyfx.5768 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    I’m almost 100% positive that damage reduction is multiplicative and not additive, say for a few scenarios. So 147% DR isn’t completely accurate.

    Whats the difference? How is this working?

    (Assuming Rite of the Great Dwarf + Protection + (for the hell of it) Vengeful Hammers)

    Additive Damage Reduction adds the values together and gives you your total damage reduction. Multiplicative multiplies the values instead. Multiplicative will always result in a lower value than Additive AND it can never reach 100% reduction; it's just not possible given how math works.

    Examples of both:

    Additive:
    First, get the values you're working with. For Additive, RotGD = 50% = 0.5, + Protection = 33% = .33, + and Vengeful Hammers = 20% = .2
    SO it would look like 0.5 + 0.33 + 0.2 = 1.03 = 103%. **
    If Additive damage reduction was used, then **the above combo would reduce damage by 103%, BUT this is not the case.

    The game uses Multiplicative which looks like this:
    Again, first get the values you're working with; they're going to be different than the additive equation. You want to subtract the above values from 1.0 to get your "multiplicative damage reduction" value.
    RotGD = 1.0 - 0.5 = 0.5, x Protection = 1.0 - 0.33 = 0.67, x VH = 1.0 - 0.2 = 0.8
    The final equation: 0.5 x 0.67 x 0.8 = .268
    You then take the value you get from that equation and subtract it from 1.0 to get your total damage reduction. 1.0 - 0.268 = 0.732
    So the total damage reduction for the combo above would be 73.2% of all incoming damage.

    If you want just RotGD + Protection it's 0.5 x 0.67 = 0.335
    1.0 - 0.335 = .665 = 66.5%
    SO in total, RotGD essentially adds 33.5% extra damage reduction WHILE you have Protection. It's still providing "50%," but in a multiplicative way, not additive. If you didn't have Protection, but had RotGD, you'd obviously have the full 50%.

    ALSO WORTH NOTING, TOUGHNESS WORKS THE SAME WAY. If anyone ever tells you "toughness is a terrible stat" or "not a great stat" this is why. You begin to get Diminishing Returns from Toughness if you stack it while also stacking other modifiers, like Protection and Vengeful Hammers. Stacking Vitality is almost always better (imo and also from a math perspective) since it gives you extra cushion against attacks, but also gives you more defense against conditions. Toughness does better the longer a fight goes on, as it has a chance to mitigate more damage, but doesn't do anything against conditions and leaves you more vulnerable to those. Vitality on the other hand is more effective at stopping initial bursts and less effective the longer the fight goes on, unless you can keep your health topped off.

    Sorry if this explanation is convoluted or confusing; I tried to lay it out the best I could

    Yeah thanks a lot, this helps

    Jokaurene

  • DonArkanio.6419DonArkanio.6419 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 29, 2019

    Just like @Thornwolf.9721 said.
    The Revenant as a whole lacks synergies between legends. They all feel good when looking at them on their own. But when it comes to hybridizing, there is really none.

    Actually, the most Hybrid thing Revenant has is Chill on Sw #2, Sw #5 (not anymore), Hammer #3 and Axe #4. All can be comboed with Abyssal Chill.
    I can't find anything that would connect better, yet this is just an eye-candy.

    We need more of this. Legends should really change drastically how we play once we invoke them. Not just burn energy through skills that pretty much do the same damage 24/7.

    Jalis + Mallyx = different.
    Jalis + Shiro = different.
    Jalis + Shiro should be different from Jalis + Mallyx. That's what I think. Weapons are stagnant, they are pretty boring. In fact, our weapon-set hasn't changed since HoT and it's still mostly Core weapons.

    As for Jalis? Yeah, it might be okay, but that doesn't change the fact it could be so much more.

  • narcx.3570narcx.3570 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DonArkanio.6419 said:
    As for Jalis? Yeah, it might be okay, but that doesn't change the fact it could be so much more.

    It would probably be a lot better if this game had any consistent areas where defensive stats/builds weren't just a waste of time. In the few instances where incoming damage is huge, Jalis is actually a meta choice: see organized WvW/GvG play and certain fractal situations (like Urban Battleground with Outflanked+Boon Overload instabilities) to name a few.

  • DonArkanio.6419DonArkanio.6419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @narcx.3570 said:

    @DonArkanio.6419 said:
    As for Jalis? Yeah, it might be okay, but that doesn't change the fact it could be so much more.

    It would probably be a lot better if this game had any consistent areas where defensive stats/builds weren't just a waste of time. In the few instances where incoming damage is huge, Jalis is actually a meta choice: see organized WvW/GvG play and certain fractal situations (like Urban Battleground with Outflanked+Boon Overload instabilities) to name a few.

    I totally agree. Sad thing is, these environments you mentioned are mostly player-built.

    There is nearly no situation in which you would want to be tanky.

    It would be cool if we had some bosses that depended on surviving the fight rather than killing the guy. Same with PvP, defense is just unrewarding.

    That's why Barrier is so cancer, because it actually goes along DPS.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 29, 2019

    Final hot maps are fine examples of how hard pve should be... ic dozens of killed players and downed no matter how much they dodge, a jalis and ventari rev on that map make an amazing help.

    Sometimes i go there with my herald ventari and I can help a lot of players their health back assuming they won’t be one shooter.

    Imobsome roles aren’t just needed cause most pve zones are just way to much dumbed down.

  • narcx.3570narcx.3570 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DonArkanio.6419 said:

    @narcx.3570 said:

    @DonArkanio.6419 said:
    As for Jalis? Yeah, it might be okay, but that doesn't change the fact it could be so much more.

    It would probably be a lot better if this game had any consistent areas where defensive stats/builds weren't just a waste of time. In the few instances where incoming damage is huge, Jalis is actually a meta choice: see organized WvW/GvG play and certain fractal situations (like Urban Battleground with Outflanked+Boon Overload instabilities) to name a few.

    I totally agree. Sad thing is, these environments you mentioned are mostly player-built.

    There is nearly no situation in which you would want to be tanky.

    It would be cool if we had some bosses that depended on surviving the fight rather than killing the guy. Same with PvP, defense is just unrewarding.

    That's why Barrier is so cancer, because it actually goes along DPS.

    I think the problem with having a boss fight that revolved around the need for damage reduction/healing in this game is that there's not really any finite resources to check it. Healers can just spam heals forever, which would make a fight like that pointless beyond "Hey, just bring two or three healers instead of six dps!" It's not like in other MMO's, where running out of mana or energy or whatever is a real problem for healers if the fight goes on too long or the raid's taking too much extra damage. Most full support specs can just pump out max heals 24/7, all fight long.

    I guess it'd be cool on some level to have a fight that your group's healer could flex on... But it would quickly end up being a yawn fest like the run-ahead-river-of-souls-healer-stack... Or even better, the community would probably just devolve it into a scourge-stack fight, since like you said, barrier is so op in those situations.

  • DonArkanio.6419DonArkanio.6419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @narcx.3570 said:

    @DonArkanio.6419 said:

    @narcx.3570 said:

    @DonArkanio.6419 said:
    As for Jalis? Yeah, it might be okay, but that doesn't change the fact it could be so much more.

    It would probably be a lot better if this game had any consistent areas where defensive stats/builds weren't just a waste of time. In the few instances where incoming damage is huge, Jalis is actually a meta choice: see organized WvW/GvG play and certain fractal situations (like Urban Battleground with Outflanked+Boon Overload instabilities) to name a few.

    I totally agree. Sad thing is, these environments you mentioned are mostly player-built.

    There is nearly no situation in which you would want to be tanky.

    It would be cool if we had some bosses that depended on surviving the fight rather than killing the guy. Same with PvP, defense is just unrewarding.

    That's why Barrier is so cancer, because it actually goes along DPS.

    I think the problem with having a boss fight that revolved around the need for damage reduction/healing in this game is that there's not really any finite resources to check it. Healers can just spam heals forever, which would make a fight like that pointless beyond "Hey, just bring two or three healers instead of six dps!" It's not like in other MMO's, where running out of mana or energy or whatever is a real problem for healers if the fight goes on too long or the raid's taking too much extra damage. Most full support specs can just pump out max heals 24/7, all fight long.

    I guess it'd be cool on some level to have a fight that your group's healer could flex on... But it would quickly end up being a yawn fest like the run-ahead-river-of-souls-healer-stack... Or even better, the community would probably just devolve it into a scourge-stack fight, since like you said, barrier is so op in those situations.

    There are just too many scenarios which are very stale and I believe are unfixable.

    I just wish we could use our entire kit to play the game, not just DPS everything our way through. Because it might be pretty fun on Warrior that's all about DPS really. When it comes to hybrid, all it feels is like Revenant is a wasted potential.
    Don't get me wrong, I can have some real fun running off-meta. But I feel it's forced because I know it doesn't stand a chance against a proper DPS.

    I love running core Mallyx / Jalis, like good Beta HoT times.

    As for the environments. I wish ANet offers us some content we really have to think about when doing this. Giving fresh content to veterans isn't easy, but defense is something ANet haven't touched since 2012, I believe.

    Welp, 4 hours left.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @narcx.3570 said:

    @DonArkanio.6419 said:

    @narcx.3570 said:

    @DonArkanio.6419 said:
    As for Jalis? Yeah, it might be okay, but that doesn't change the fact it could be so much more.

    It would probably be a lot better if this game had any consistent areas where defensive stats/builds weren't just a waste of time. In the few instances where incoming damage is huge, Jalis is actually a meta choice: see organized WvW/GvG play and certain fractal situations (like Urban Battleground with Outflanked+Boon Overload instabilities) to name a few.

    I totally agree. Sad thing is, these environments you mentioned are mostly player-built.

    There is nearly no situation in which you would want to be tanky.

    It would be cool if we had some bosses that depended on surviving the fight rather than killing the guy. Same with PvP, defense is just unrewarding.

    That's why Barrier is so cancer, because it actually goes along DPS.

    I think the problem with having a boss fight that revolved around the need for damage reduction/healing in this game is that there's not really any finite resources to check it. Healers can just spam heals forever, which would make a fight like that pointless beyond "Hey, just bring two or three healers instead of six dps!" It's not like in other MMO's, where running out of mana or energy or whatever is a real problem for healers if the fight goes on too long or the raid's taking too much extra damage. Most full support specs can just pump out max heals 24/7, all fight long.

    I guess it'd be cool on some level to have a fight that your group's healer could flex on... But it would quickly end up being a yawn fest like the run-ahead-river-of-souls-healer-stack... Or even better, the community would probably just devolve it into a scourge-stack fight, since like you said, barrier is so op in those situations.

    Honestly... Not having enrages and DPS checks in the high-end content would probably do it.

    It would then be practical to do things like raids in something other than glass cannon (or glass medic) gear. It'd take longer, to be sure, but you'd have more margin for error when it came to effects that weren't instant kills. People could then practice in tankier builds, and the reward for getting better at the mechanics and being able to do them with glassier builds would be "you do the content faster" not "you need to do this to complete the content at all".

    There are situations in which tankier builds help, but they're usually cases of trying to solo something, and usually it's either an instance (where you can just resume from checkpoint after dying) or in open world where it's usually more efficient to get a friend or two than to have special gear for slowly soloing something.

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