[SPOILERS] Dragons and their magical domains — Guild Wars 2 Forums

[SPOILERS] Dragons and their magical domains

Schwarzwald.9078Schwarzwald.9078 Member ✭✭
edited August 18, 2019 in Lore

So, this recent event with the Zephyrites got me thinking, in no small part due to their involvement with Aurene, how their beliefs tied up within the Eternal Alchemy.

Zephyrites worship the three Aspects:

  • Aspect of Wind - This can also be related to flow and water
  • Aspect of Sun - This can also be related to fire
  • Aspect of Lightning

The dragons from what we know possess these alignments:

  • Primordus - Fire
  • S...? - Presumably water, possibly
  • Jormag- Ice
  • Zhaitan - Death and Shadow
  • Kralkatorrik - Crystal
  • Mordremoth - Mind and Plants

I'm going to take a lot of creative liberty with this theory, if only to get the ball rolling, but given how the dragons are shown in the vision of the commander, as spokes of the handles of the eternal alchemy, began to think "Well, if dragons are the spokes, then what do the handles correspond to?". Eventually, my line of thought lead me to imagine handles that correspond to the immutable aspects, who could be the "primordial" handles that originally made up Tyria before other new "handles" and "spokes" began to appear within Tyria.

Not only that, but each handle could correspond for both the presence and its absence of as being part of the same aspect, and it is these that correspond to the dragons and their domains>

  • Aspect of Sun - Presence: Fire [Primordus], Absence: Lack of Fire, Cold, Ice [Jormag]
  • Aspect of the Wind (Flow) - Presence: Water, Air [S...?], Absence: Static, Fixed Structure, Crystal [Kralkatorrik]
  • Aspect of Lightning - Presence: Lightning [Kralkatorrik], Absence: Grounded [Primordus]

But wait, there's not enough for all the dragons! But ... what if that's because those are aspects that weren't originally part of Tyria, but arrived to it along with its inhabitants? Could they be deduced? We basically get Mordremoth, which is essentially an elder cheatsheet in this regards. So taking him into account and placing those spokes as the edges of a nice hexagon, we get:

  • Aspect of Life - Presence: Plants [Mordremoth], Absence: Death [Zhaitan]
  • Aspect of the Mind - Presence: Mind [Mordremoth], Absence: Madness [S...?] (if true, this could be a huge reveal into the "madness" affecting the rest of the dragons)

But there's one "handle" left, one that would have Zhaitan and Jormag as its "spokes". We have a hint of Zhaitan's, so I will venture a guess at this Aspect:

  • Aspect of Will - Presence: Independence, Will [Jormag], Absence: Shadow, hivemind [Zhaitan] (Glint was able to separate from Kralkatorrik through her independence. Given the increasing depth we are beginning to see with the Elder Dragons, this could be another huge reveal into LS5)

I think it can be argued that all elder dragons have been fought of with the opposite end of their corresponding aspect:

  • Zhaitan: Was fought off by the living, through the sheer willpower of a reawakened Orr and our protagonists.
  • Mordremoth: Was fought off with madness induced within his mind by our heroes, with one of the protagonist representing the crucial antithesis of Death represented by Trahearne's mastery of it and his very death. It's ironic that Mordremoth tried to plant the seeds of his return within Trahearne when he became the very means to his death.
  • Primordus & Jormag: They essentially banished themselves, but only through their shared handle. They aren't destroyed and are instead driven to hibernation as a result.
  • Kralkatorrik: Was brought down into the water (flow, wind) and grounded. The first time, he was only grounded, and he managed to escape. The second time he was grounded within the sea, and he was slayed.

Sensing a pattern? :)

If this theory hold any degree of truth, we can predict Jormag being slayed not by us, but through the use of Sohothin (no longer in Rytlock's hand) by a hivemind / shadow antagonist, and Primordus would have to be slayed with Jormag's remnant power along with Kralkatorrik's, possibly hinting at the capture of Aurene.

Comments

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Pretty sure the Aspects are all essentially Glint's domains (and not all of those to boot, since herald facets also draw from Glint's domains, and she was a potent mesmer to boot). They're probably a weaker and more wholesome subset of Kralkatorrik's domains, although it's also quite likely she's picked up more power from other sources since.

    Primordus and Jormag are both vulnerable to each other's magic, although it's likely that sufficiently concentrated ice or fire magic, respectively, would do the job.

  • Schwarzwald.9078Schwarzwald.9078 Member ✭✭
    edited August 18, 2019

    Pretty sure the Aspects are all essentially Glint's domains. They're probably a weaker and more wholesome subset of Kralkatorrik's domains, although it's also quite likely she's picked up more power from other sources since.

    Thanks for the comment. I've tried to search for corroborating sources, and there is a line of dialogue by a character names Bethamy that associates it to Air magic. Maybe I've theorized under false premises. However, having said that, now that the ball is rolling, the "spokes" and "handle" theory still fit in very well.

    Ignoring the aspects from now on and replacing it with domains of magic, I still see that the theory would hold.

    Endothermal: Fire [Primordius] versus Ice [Jormag]
    Flow: Air [Kralkatorrik] versus Water [S...?]
    Electromagnetic: Lightning/Etherial [Kralkatorrik] versus Grounded/Matter [Primordius]

    Life, Mind, & Will would remain the same, they just aren't aspects of any domain of magic (but maybe domains of magic can shape the aspects of each individual domain?).

    Life - Presence: Plants [Mordremoth] versus Absence: Death [Zhaitan]
    Mind - Presence: Mind [Mordremoth] versus Absence: Madness [S...?]
    Will - Will [Jormag] versus Absence: Shadow, hivemind [Zhaitan]

    Each of the slain elder dragon would still have been slain under the influence of the two opposing ends of their domains.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Honestly, I was really hoping that Season 4 would tell us what Kralkatorrik’s second sphere of influence was. Even to this date, we don’t have a direct answer for what Zhaitan’s Shadow domain is/does. Maybe they will tell us in Season 5...

  • Curious note when looking back at the Eternal Alchemy vision: The orbs we all saw spinning clockwise (if looking from the top), the GREEN, LIGHT GREEN, and PURPLE orbs, have been associated with the dragons we've ended up slaying: Mordremoth, Zhaitan, and Kralkatorrik. Those that spun counterclockwise, RED, BLUE, and LIGHT BLUE, supposedly belong to Primordus, Jormag, and S...?

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2019

    @Schwarzwald.9078 said:
    So, this recent event with the Zephyrites got me thinking, in no small part due to their involvement with Aurene, how their beliefs tied up within the Eternal Alchemy.

    Zephyrites worship the three Aspects:

    As draxynnic said, the Aspects come from Glint. Specifically, they come from her corpse. The first of the Aspect crystals were harvested from Glint's body, and imbued with magic from her corpse.

    Source 1
    Source 2 (this is just the first one, but put into the game)
    Source 3

    In addition, as you brought up, the Aspects appear to be (not really confirmed) subdomains of Air Magic: Source.

    Basically, they only relate to one Elder Dragon: Kralkatorrik. Kralkatorrik also exhibits use of lightning, and less so but also sun and wind. This is why some - myself included - suspect that Kralkatorrik's two domains have been Crystal and Air.

    I think it can be argued that all elder dragons have been fought of with the opposite end of their corresponding aspect:

    • Zhaitan: Was fought off by the living, through the sheer willpower of a reawakened Orr and our protagonists.
    • Mordremoth: Was fought off with madness induced within his mind by our heroes, with one of the protagonist representing the crucial antithesis of Death represented by Trahearne's mastery of it and his very death. It's ironic that Mordremoth tried to plant the seeds of his return within Trahearne when he became the very means to his death.
    • Primordus & Jormag: They essentially banished themselves, but only through their shared handle. They aren't destroyed and are instead driven to hibernation as a result.
    • Kralkatorrik: Was brought down into the water (flow, wind) and grounded. The first time, he was only grounded, and he managed to escape. The second time he was grounded within the sea, and he was slayed.

    Sensing a pattern? :)

    Rather arbitrary and unrelated pieces you're including, really. Each Elder Dragon was killed by exploiting their unique weakness then basically beating the hell out of them until they died. The circumstances around such aren't really related.

    Zhaitan's unique weakness was his overreliance on specialized minions like the Eyes and Mouths. Those minions were directly connected to Zhaitan, thus injuring them meant injuring Zhaitan. This left him vulnerable. Every Elder Dragon was fought "through the sheer willpower" of the Pact and Commander's group.

    Mordremoth didn't have madness implanted inside him, as he was quite already mad himself. Instead, the Commander destroyed the essence of his mind within the Dream of Dreams, isolating what was left into two bodies, then destroyed those bodies. Basically, the Commander removed Mordremoth's escape route (transferring his mind into a new body), then destroyed the bodies which the mind already inhabited.

    As showcased in A Crack in the Ice, Jormag's weakness isn't actually Primordus. It's merely powerful magical flame - Braham's bow was capable of cracking the tooth, and the Spirit of Fire is capable of warding off Jormag's presence and corruption. Due to the domain they have (fire and ice) this makes them countering each other. That said, there is a theory that every Elder Dragon has two weaknesses, as A Crack in the Ice and One Path Ends both promote Mordremoth's and Zhaitan's magics as counteractive to each other (dubbing Mordremoth's power as "life" not "plant") just as Primordus' and Jormag's are. Whether that's true or just some witty mechanic and throwaway line that pampers a rather poorly thought out old bandwagon theory though is unclear.

    Kralkatorrik falling into water had nothing to do with his death. The reason why he couldn't escape was because he got a wing blasted off and was partially buried. Basically, you're overlooking the forest for the tree here. It wouldn't matter if he landed on water or land, really, since he couldn't fly away with only one wing (the reason he fell in the first place).

    And Kralk was killed by, again, the "unique weakness" which is thematically "taking advantage of their strength" (which is an overused trope that I hope ArenaNet stops with).

    If this theory hold any degree of truth, we can predict Jormag being slayed not by us, but through the use of Sohothin (no longer in Rytlock's hand) by a hivemind / shadow antagonist, and Primordus would have to be slayed with Jormag's remnant power along with Kralkatorrik's, possibly hinting at the capture of Aurene.

    Sohothin is still in Rytlock's hands during War Eternal.

    @Schwarzwald.9078 said:
    Will - Will [Jormag] versus Absence: Shadow, hivemind [Zhaitan]

    Every Elder Dragon has a hivemind. This is not unique to Zhaitan. A hive mind is one of the core aspects of dragon minions in general (one of the many things sylvari lack despite somehow being dragon minions).

    @Schwarzwald.9078 said:
    Curious note when looking back at the Eternal Alchemy vision: The orbs we all saw spinning clockwise (if looking from the top), the GREEN, LIGHT GREEN, and PURPLE orbs, have been associated with the dragons we've ended up slaying: Mordremoth, Zhaitan, and Kralkatorrik. Those that spun counterclockwise, RED, BLUE, and LIGHT BLUE, supposedly belong to Primordus, Jormag, and S...?

    The vision is actually of The All, which is distinctly less than Eternal Alchemy. The All is about the inner workings of the world of Thyria (a single planet), while the Eternal Alchemy is the interconnections of all existence (the multiverse). The reason why it's called the Eternal Alchemy in Season 2 is because Omadd told Scarlet that's what she would see, and as such that's what she said she saw, despite only seeing The All.

    As to the way of the revolutions, I don't think that matters very much. It's not just those we've killed versus those we haven't, it's also "the first three to awake go one way, the latter three to awaken go the other". I doubt that they had any plans to kill Kralkatorrik third at the time of Season 2, given the fact that a) they stated that they plotted out the outline of Season 3 and PoF after HoT's launch, and b) they stated at the end of S4 that they don't make long term drafts, just add bits of lore that they "plan to return to sometime in the future".

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • suspect that Kralkatorrik's two domains have been Crystal and Air.

    Someone else replied everything you did up to this point, and it made me think of this as well. Having Kralkatorrik's specializations be Crystal and Air (Air versus Ground) still ends up working.

    Rather arbitrary and unrelated pieces you're including, really.

    Yes, I'm not presenting them as fact. I mean, I realize you can always fall back to saying "well, that's not what they've said or we know", but I can't really theorize from that basis. That just breaks the whole premise of theorizing.

    Zhaitan's unique weakness was his overreliance on specialized minions like the Eyes and Mouths.

    Mordremoth has plenty of specialized minions as well. He has the Mouth of Mordremoth and the Shadow of the Dragon, both employed to similar purposes. With Kralkatorrik, his overreliance on one particular minion, Glint, is his eventual downfall.

    But the wiki states this as well and it sounds familiar, so is this from dialogue within the game? Besides going after these minions themselves, was this mentioned as his unique weakness? I think it was, I just want to find where so I can contextualize it.

    Mordremoth didn't have madness implanted inside him, as he was quite already mad himself.

    The only one who's clearly shown to be quite mad is Kralkatorrik, at least that I know of. Mordremoth shows composure and is focused on his intent - when you face off against him in his mind, he does not appear to be possessed by madness. Was there something that indicated he was? When you go into his mind, you turn his own thoughts against him, thus I argue that you are literally driving him into madness.

    And yes, when Mordremoth tries to plant the seed for his rebirth in Trahearne, so you kill him before he can be sprung with a literal death. Mordremoth would have chosen someone else if not Trahearne, so eventually, death was going to be a factor, but it may have been more difficult for Mordremoth to "infect" a necromancer like Trahearne, giving our heroes the opportunity to kill him off before his rebirth in the first place.

    As showcased in A Crack in the Ice, Jormag's weakness isn't actually Primordus.

    I'm not saying it is either, so perhaps you've misinterpreted the point I was trying to make. Though you read that I thought Sohothin could be used to slay Jormag, so I'm not sure how you could have misinterpreted it. I'm describing domains of magic in this theory, not claiming that each Elder Dragon is aiding the protagonist in slaying the other.

    That said, there is a theory that every Elder Dragon has two weaknesses, as A Crack in the Ice and One Path Ends both promote Mordremoth's and Zhaitan's magics as counteractive to each other (dubbing Mordremoth's power as "life" not "plant") just as Primordus' and Jormag's are.

    Whether that's true or just some witty mechanic and throwaway line that pampers a rather poorly thought out old bandwagon theory though is unclear.

    I'm not sure what the point of this sentence is other than be derisive, which rather than adding to the premise of a well thought out critique, detracts from it. In fact, I'm guessing by the way you've phrased it you seem to know the game directly contradicts this claim, but you don't really provide any reason to dismiss it other than your attempt at ridicule. Forgive me if I'm wrong. This is a line from the episode Hidden Arcana:

    Magister Ela Makkay: Each dragon has two spheres of influence. For Mordremoth, that's mind and plants. Zhaitan ruled shadow _and _death. [...]

    It's clear that dragons can accrue mastery over other magical domains, but I would assume that what Magister Ela Makkay is referring is the natural order of the Elder Dragons, when they aren't being slain off one by one, with the remaining assuming control over polar ends of the domains of magic that were previously under the sphere of influence of another Elder Dragon.

    Basically, you're overlooking the forest for the tree here.

    Just to reiterate, I'm not presenting them as fact. You can always fall back to saying "well, that's not what they've said or we know", but you can't really theorize with that basis. I'm trying to come up with fictional theory that doesn't have much support and see where and when it breaks and if it can be salvaged in any way. Saying "well, that's what happened or what is shown to us" really isn't a criticism as much as it is an observation in this regard. If you just don't like me theorizing like this, well, I was already going to stop, but you brought in some interesting points and corrections.

    And Kralk was killed by, again, the "unique weakness" which is thematically "taking advantage of their strength" (which is an overused trope that I hope ArenaNet stops with).

    This is a good point, but arguably and within the terms of this theory, what actually beat Kralk were weapons forged through resonance, that is, the vibrations and waves, flow, through a medium, of the vibrations of opposing crystals. He is beaten by the flow of his strength turned back upon him, yes, but resonance requires flow, it does not work in a vacuum.

    Sohothin is still in Rytlock's hands during War Eternal.

    True, thanks for correcting me. I got ahead of myself and tripped over that fact. In the short story ArenaNet released regarding Rytlock, and from what has been said in recent streams, they've been toying with a Rytlock who's ready to let go of Sohothin to focus on his personal life and his family, and Sohothin is the perfect medium to be used for slaying Jormag. He hasn't given it up yet, but I'm suspecting that he will, at least enough so that it can be stolen (again).

    Every Elder Dragon has a hivemind. This is not unique to Zhaitan. A hive mind is one of the core aspects of dragon minions in general (one of the many things sylvari lack despite somehow being dragon minions).

    The Sons of Svanir don't really show any hivemind, and I doubt they would be tolerated by the rest of the Nords if they did. They are the most independent, hence why I associate Jormag with Will. It also seems to go extremely well with the remnant notion that there were tree domains that were primordial, and there were tree domains that came afterwards (Primordial: [Fire-Ice],[Ground-Air],[Mutable/Disorder/Flow-Stasis/Order/Crystal], Newcomers: [Life-Death],[Mind-Madness],[Will-Lacking Will/Shadow]). Basically, Jormag's sphere of influence being essentially willpower seems to fit in closely with the notion that three of these domains of magic arrived when life did to Tyria.

    Mordremoth's minions, the Sylvari, can hardly be said to have had a hivemind, but they were also shielded by the Pale Tree and the Dream, and those who couldn't became minions, but they did not become thoughtless servants of a hivemind. Kralk's minions probably breaks this part of the theory the most, because they didn't attain the sort of thoughtful demeanor other Elder Dragon minions have, but they aren't the literal horde of zombies screaming "DEATH ... GOOD" that Zhaitan throws at you. The best excuse I can come up with is that it's some power of the Crystal domain of magic, to impose "order" into those affected by it. It is neither a strong will nor do they act as mere shadows.

    But you probably have a point here. It's probably not as simple as a shadow equals hivemind.

    The vision is actually of The All, which is distinctly less than Eternal Alchemy. The All is about the inner workings of the world of Thyria (a single planet), while the Eternal Alchemy is the interconnections of all existence (the multiverse). The reason why it's called the Eternal Alchemy in Season 2 is because Omadd told Scarlet that's what she would see, and as such that's what she said she saw, despite only seeing The All.

    Thanks for that clarification, especially the source. When I looked at the link, I couldn't help but notice that the first diagram corresponds to having each of the dragons in opposing sides of a domain of magic. The other end of the handle of the domain of magic is always on the other side. If you copied and pasted the table to the bottom endlessly, you would find that for each Elder Dragon on the left, a first domain of magic is shared with the dragon on the right and a second domain of magic is shared directly with the elder dragon on the bottom right. In other words, the rows corresponds to (Flow-Crystal), (Life-Death), and (Fire-Ice), and the diagonal corresponds to (Madness-Mind), (Will-Shadow), and (Ground-Air) within this theory.

    In the mid diagram/video, we have the same layout except for the fact that Mordremoth and Zhaitan are on opposite sides (either that, or there's some credence to the theory that the artist who made it thought they were illustrating the rise and fall of Zhaitan in the shift into the center of Tyria). Either way, the most unique thing about this diagram is the peculiarities of the motion of a moving "All" I've mentioned.

    In the last diagram, we have Mordremoth on the top versus S...? on the bottom (Mind-Madness), Jormag on the upper left and Zhaitan on the upper right (Will-Shadow), and Primordius on the bottom left and Kralk on the bottom Right (Air-Ground). Then Mordremoth on the top to Zhaitan on the top right (Life-Death) and Kralk on the bottom right and S...? on the bottom (Flow-Crystal), with Jormag on the top. In other words, (Fire-Ice), (Flow-Crystal), and (Life-Death) are all side by side as exterior connections, and (Mind-Madness), (Will-Shadow), and (Air-Ground) are all on sides of a row or column. Compare it to the first diagram and the symmetry becomes more apparent.

    Thanks for leading me into that bit of explorationl It is a theory and this is probably forcing a connection, I'm just trying to get it to break in a way I'm properly unsatisfied with :)

    As an aside, S...? is now the only original Elder Dragon whose spheres of influence would not share a domain of magic with another Elder Dragon. Though that control depends on how much Aurene would control as a Chromatic Elder Dragon. The Elder Dragons whose sphere of influence would be shared between the Life-Death domain of magic no longer exist, either, and we've both created new living things (Skycales) and the dead are leaking into Tyria (Yes, yes, I know, stating the obvious would be that this is due to holes through the mists ... but maybe that's why Kralkatorrik could punch them in the first place and why they manifested in these ways? Yes, yes, I know, there's nothing to support that sigh)

    As to the way of the revolutions, I don't think that matters very much. It's not just those we've killed versus those we haven't, it's also "the first three to awake go one way, the latter three to awaken go the other". I doubt that they had any plans to kill Kralkatorrik third at the time of Season 2, given the fact that a) they stated that they plotted out the outline of Season 3 and PoF after HoT's launch, and b) they stated at the end of S4 that they don't make long term drafts, just add bits of lore that they "plan to return to sometime in the future".

    You could also be assuming too much about what they meant. Things like Living Season 5 were planned far enough in advance that Jessica Price still had a bit of a hand in its design. Things like knowing they would have had to kill off Kralkatorrik next wouldn't have stopped them from plotting an outline of an intermission that introduced the God of War. I think the eventual killing of Kralkatorrik has pretty much been an expectation since Guild Wars. They may not make long term drafts, but this could very well the bits of lore that we don't have a clue about what they are but that they "plan to return to sometime in the future" so that when they point it out, you go "ooooooh".

    Again, just keeping the ball rolling on a theory, I don't believe I'm right, I expect I'm completely wrong.

  • @Schwarzwald.9078 said:
    Mordremoth has plenty of specialized minions as well. He has the Mouth of Mordremoth and the Shadow of the Dragon, both employed to similar purposes. With Kralkatorrik, his overreliance on one particular minion, Glint, is his eventual downfall.

    But the wiki states this as well and it sounds familiar, so is this from dialogue within the game? Besides going after these minions themselves, was this mentioned as his unique weakness? I think it was, I just want to find where so I can contextualize it.

    It comes from a developer: Source

    However, you're incorrect about your comparisons. Glint was just a dragon champion, and her betrayal didn't directly affect Kralkatorrik any more than the Great Destroyer's death affected Primordus (delay in awakening, due to slower magic gathering, nothing more). The Mouth of Mordremoth isn't a specialized minion, that is Mordremoth himself, or rather the "core body". The Shadow of the Dragon, similarly, is just a dragon champion no different from the Claws of Jormag or the Shatterers.

    The Eyes and Mouths of Zhaitan were directly connected to Zhaitan, and killing them directly weakened Zhaitan. Killing Tequatl, the Megadestroyer, the Branded Wrathbringer, etc. doesn't have this effect.

    @Schwarzwald.9078 said:
    The only one who's clearly shown to be quite mad is Kralkatorrik, at least that I know of. Mordremoth shows composure and is focused on his intent - when you face off against him in his mind, he does not appear to be possessed by madness. Was there something that indicated he was? When you go into his mind, you turn his own thoughts against him, thus I argue that you are literally driving him into madness.

    And yes, when Mordremoth tries to plant the seed for his rebirth in Trahearne, so you kill him before he can be sprung with a literal death. Mordremoth would have chosen someone else if not Trahearne, so eventually, death was going to be a factor, but it may have been more difficult for Mordremoth to "infect" a necromancer like Trahearne, giving our heroes the opportunity to kill him off before his rebirth in the first place.

    Mordremoth's personality is very clearly one of extreme narcissism and god-complex who believes himself to be the literal world. Not exactly a sane mentality. Kralkatorrik is the only one so far to shown schizophrenia. Schizophrenia isn't the only form of madness. Kralkatorrik has also been the only one to showcase a clear example of magic tormenting them, which drove Kralkatorrik to such an animalistic extreme, but dev comments (particularly during the War Eternal Guild Chat episode) imply that all Elder Dragons suffer from this.

    And I'm not sure where you get that the PC turns "his own thoughts against him". I mean, there's the avatars he creates, but that seems to be less a case of turning his own thoughts against him, and more of commandeering independent constructs he created.

    As for the big about Trahearne - Mordremoth was already directly connected to Trahearne, which is why I believe he used Trahearne (other than the writers catering to the Trahearne hate). I doubt Trahearne was so hard to "infect" because he was a necromancer. After all, Canach resisted Mordremoth very well, and he's just a warrior-engineer.

    I'm not saying it is either, so perhaps you've misinterpreted the point I was trying to make. Though you read that I thought Sohothin could be used to slay Jormag, so I'm not sure how you could have misinterpreted it. I'm describing domains of magic in this theory, not claiming that each Elder Dragon is aiding the protagonist in slaying the other.

    You stated:

    Primordus & Jormag: They essentially banished themselves, but only through their shared handle. They aren't destroyed and are instead driven to hibernation as a result.

    I was clarifying.

    I'm not sure what the point of this sentence is other than be derisive, which rather than adding to the premise of a well thought out critique, detracts from it. In fact, I'm guessing by the way you've phrased it you seem to know the game directly contradicts this claim, but you don't really provide any reason to dismiss it other than your attempt at ridicule. Forgive me if I'm wrong. This is a line from the episode Hidden Arcana:

    Magister Ela Makkay: Each dragon has two spheres of influence. For Mordremoth, that's mind and plants. Zhaitan ruled shadow _and _death. [...]

    It's clear that dragons can accrue mastery over other magical domains, but I would assume that what Magister Ela Makkay is referring is the natural order of the Elder Dragons, when they aren't being slain off one by one, with the remaining assuming control over polar ends of the domains of magic that were previously under the sphere of influence of another Elder Dragon.

    We're talking about Elder Dragons and their weaknesses and means of killing them. How is the notion of whether or not they have counterparts not relevant to the discussion? But being pragmatic, I acknowledge that the notion of counterparts on top of a unique weakness is not solidly established. My ultimate point in bringing that up, is that "Jormag is weak to Primordus and Primordus is weak to Jormag" may not be their "unique weaknesses" as has been established, based on the implication that "Zhaitan magic afflicts Mordremoth magic and Mordremoth magic afflicts Zhaitan magic".

    TL;DR "Elder Dragons may have two weaknesses. One is unique, the other is a pairing."

    I'm also not sure what your second point is trying to be. Doesn't seem to be at all related to what I was talking about with the Elder Dragons' weaknesses and how they are able to be killed.

    Just to reiterate, I'm not presenting them as fact. You can always fall back to saying "well, that's not what they've said or we know", but you can't really theorize with that basis. I'm trying to come up with fictional theory that doesn't have much support and see where and when it breaks and if it can be salvaged in any way. Saying "well, that's what happened or what is shown to us" really isn't a criticism as much as it is an observation in this regard. If you just don't like me theorizing like this, well, I was already going to stop, but you brought in some interesting points and corrections.

    I never said you were presenting things as facts. I was using facts to debunk your postulation.

    This is a good point, but arguably and within the terms of this theory, what actually beat Kralk were weapons forged through resonance, that is, the vibrations and waves, flow, through a medium, of the vibrations of opposing crystals. He is beaten by the flow of his strength turned back upon him, yes, but resonance requires flow, it does not work in a vacuum.

    Air is not a vacuum either. By that argument, "flow" is Kralkatorrik's domain as air needs to flow to become wind or lightning.

    The Sons of Svanir don't really show any hivemind, and I doubt they would be tolerated by the rest of the Nords if they did. They are the most independent, hence why I associate Jormag with Will. It also seems to go extremely well with the remnant notion that there were tree domains that were primordial, and there were tree domains that came afterwards (Primordial: [Fire-Ice],[Ground-Air],[Mutable/Disorder/Flow-Stasis/Order/Crystal], Newcomers: [Life-Death],[Mind-Madness],[Will-Lacking Will/Shadow]). Basically, Jormag's sphere of influence being essentially willpower seems to fit in closely with the notion that three of these domains of magic arrived when life did to Tyria.

    Mordremoth's minions, the Sylvari, can hardly be said to have had a hivemind, but they were also shielded by the Pale Tree and the Dream, and those who couldn't became minions, but they did not become thoughtless servants of a hivemind. Kralk's minions probably breaks this part of the theory the most, because they didn't attain the sort of thoughtful demeanor other Elder Dragon minions have, but they aren't the literal horde of zombies screaming "DEATH ... GOOD" that Zhaitan throws at you. The best excuse I can come up with is that it's some power of the Crystal domain of magic, to impose "order" into those affected by it. It is neither a strong will nor do they act as mere shadows.

    But you probably have a point here. It's probably not as simple as a shadow equals hivemind.

    1. Sons of Svanir aren't minions. They are not corrupted. Jormag's minions are the Icebrood. Sons of Svanir are to Icebrood as Flame Legion are to Destroyers in Eye of the North. Sons of Svanir do get corrupted over time, and when they do, they join the hive mind. Edge of Destiny establishes very clearly that the icebrood have a hive mind (it's even the mcguffin that is used to kill the Dragonspawn).
    2. Similarly, it's established in GW1 (and less so in Edge of Destiny) that the destroyers have a hive mind, in the personal story and Sea of Sorrows (and, less so, in Edge of Destiny) that risen have a hive mind, in Edge of Destiny and Season 4 that the branded have a hive mind.
    3. Sylvari do not have a hivemind. This is one of quite a few contradictions that differentiate them from dragon minions and make the reveal of their origins, well, contradictory. Mordrem, however, do have a hive mind.
    4. Not all minions are "thoughtless servants" - that's why there are dragon champions and lieutenants, to be the intelligent minions that order the mindless grunts around via interpreting the Elder Dragons' will. Keep in mind that Elder Dragons hive minds aren't "one mind, many body" form (exception being Mordremoth, who has both kinds of hive minds due to his domain of mind) but rather "many interconnected minds, with one superior to the rest".
    5. Regarding Kralkatorrik's minions "breaks this theory the most" - Not sure which theory you're referring to, but it's shown that every Elder Dragons' minions have different levels of intelligence. The grunts among risen seem most intelligent, as they're the only grunt minions that speak, while destroyers, icebrood, branded, and mordrem grunts are either mute, or only respond in, well, grunts. If I had to label level of intelligence among the five type of dragon minions based on their vocality, from smartest to dumbest it'd be: risen -> icebrood -> branded -> mordrem -> destroyers.

    Regarding Jormag's second domain, I'm of the theory that Jormag's second domain is Spirit. For a few reasons. First off, to counterargue the will thing - every Elder Dragon overrides the wills of those they corrupt; while Jormag is unique in his method of corruption (he prefers to corrupt willing converts instead of openly enslaving all), he still overrides the will and willpower of those he corrupts just like the rest. He doesn't seem to be at all unique in how will and willpower interacts with his corruption.

    Second, there's a dialogue (annoyingly I cannot remember where it was, I heard another say it was said by a kodan npc but I recall it being said by Eir...) saying that when Jormag corrupts, he corrupts the soul as well. This is in stark contrast to Kralkatorrik and Zhaitan, both are known to leave the soul untouched. With risen, sometimes they're imprisoned within the body, and sometimes they're not, it seems tied with how powerful the minion is (more powerful = has a soul); with branded, we only have one example but it says they're imprisoned in the corrupted body.

    Thirdly, Jormag has always been interested in the Mists and souls. Aside from consuming Owl and trying to eat Minotaur, he bound a soul of a havroun (via Sons of Svanir), and Svanir himself had nothing but "Spirit" named skills, including Spirit World Retreat, and the "spirit realm" is synonymous with the part of the Mists that overlaps with Tyria (where we visit in the norn PS).

    The Elder Dragons whose sphere of influence would be shared between the Life-Death domain of magic no longer exist, either, and we've both created new living things (Skycales) and the dead are leaking into Tyria (Yes, yes, I know, stating the obvious would be that this is due to holes through the mists ... but maybe that's why Kralkatorrik could punch them in the first place and why they manifested in these ways? Yes, yes, I know, there's nothing to support that sigh)

    The reason Kralkatorrik could "punch holes" in the Mists is due to Balthazar. This has been fully confirmed already; it had nothing to do with Zhaitan's magic, which only gave Kralkatorrik the ability to corrupt corpses (including corpses of branded). Either way, now that Kralkatorrik's dead, the souls who fled from the Mists should be returning there (presuming they can).

    The Skyscales are also unrelated to any "life" domain, as Kralkatorrik only showcased have Death and Mind from Zhaitan and Mordremoth - no use of plant or shadow. The Skyscales are also brought into the existence the exact same way as Razah from GW1, but more numerous.

    You could also be assuming too much about what they meant. Things like Living Season 5 were planned far enough in advance that Jessica Price still had a bit of a hand in its design. Things like knowing they would have had to kill off Kralkatorrik next wouldn't have stopped them from plotting an outline of an intermission that introduced the God of War. I think the eventual killing of Kralkatorrik has pretty much been an expectation since Guild Wars. They may not make long term drafts, but this could very well the bits of lore that we don't have a clue about what they are but that they "plan to return to sometime in the future" so that when they point it out, you go "ooooooh".

    Again, just keeping the ball rolling on a theory, I don't believe I'm right, I expect I'm completely wrong.

    The bold is a given, and can be expanded to all six Elder Dragons. The order of which it's done, however, was likely not planned when they were making Season 2 back in 2014. Regarding JP's involvement in S5, based on when she was fired, work on Season 5 would be fairly bare bones, being outlines primarily, given that real work on it wouldn't have started until late September (after Ep4 release). Peter Fries' last work with Anet was the first draft of the final cinematic of All or Nothing, which goes to show just how far along development they were in July '18 (3/4 months into development of Ep5).

    I find it questionable that they would lock in place the order they would kill the Elder Dragons so sternly as to put it into the game as foreshadowing. This is especially true when they admit that they don't think of major plot points very far in advance - how to resurrect Aurene wasn't thought up until they had already shipped Episode 3, and began working on Episode 6 according to the War Eternal Guild Chat, and that's a very important plot point.

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  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Schwarzwald.9078 said:
    Mordremoth has plenty of specialized minions as well. He has the Mouth of Mordremoth and the Shadow of the Dragon, both employed to similar purposes. With Kralkatorrik, his overreliance on one particular minion, Glint, is his eventual downfall.

    But the wiki states this as well and it sounds familiar, so is this from dialogue within the game? Besides going after these minions themselves, was this mentioned as his unique weakness? I think it was, I just want to find where so I can contextualize it.

    It comes from a developer: Source

    However, you're incorrect about your comparisons. Glint was just a dragon champion, and her betrayal didn't directly affect Kralkatorrik any more than the Great Destroyer's death affected Primordus (delay in awakening, due to slower magic gathering, nothing more). The Mouth of Mordremoth isn't a specialized minion, that is Mordremoth himself, or rather the "core body". The Shadow of the Dragon, similarly, is just a dragon champion no different from the Claws of Jormag or the Shatterers.

    The Eyes and Mouths of Zhaitan were directly connected to Zhaitan, and killing them directly weakened Zhaitan. Killing Tequatl, the Megadestroyer, the Branded Wrathbringer, etc. doesn't have this effect.

    I have to admit I tend to view that as another case of ArenaNet being inconsistent, or at least not telling the whole truth.

    Yes, killing Zhaitan's specialised minions certainly weakened his position... but the other Elder Dragons we've killed also required knocking out hordes of minions and a few champions before we could get a shot. The only reason this was particularly so in Zhaitan's case was that, unlike Mordremoth, Kralkatorrik, and Primordus who proactively sought out sources of magic themselves, Zhaitan relied on the Mouths to feed, which meant he could be starved and weakened before engaging him directly.

    The cannons, meanwhile... The Glory of Tyria's weapons employed principles derived from the Vacuumagic Polariser, which meant that it operated by using the energy of Zhaitan's minions - something which had previously been shown to have been as effective on Zhaitan's minions as the "fake" Dragonsblood weapons are on Kralkatorrik's. This suggests that the actual weakness that was employed to kill Zhaitan was similar to Kralkatorrik's - turning his own energy against himself. "Cannons" is technically accurate, but they were specifically cannons that were shooting packets of repolarised Zhaitan energy. So either Andrew was being coy in his response, or (as often happens with ArenaNet devs) he forgot the detail.

    Zhaitan's weakened state, however, probably did contribute to being able to kill him with energy that had come from his minions, as opposed to Kralkatorrik who required a spear coated with his own blood to finish the job.

  • Zhaitan relied on the Mouths to feed, which meant he could be starved and weakened before engaging him directly.

    If they are this unique to Zhaitan, then perhaps these are manifestations of Zhaitan's sphere of influence over Shadow within the [Will-Shadow] domain of magic.

    The cannons, meanwhile... The Glory of Tyria's weapons employed principles derived from the Vacuumagic Polariser, which meant that it operated by using the energy of Zhaitan's minions - something which had previously been shown to have been as effective on Zhaitan's minions as the "fake" Dragonsblood weapons are on Kralkatorrik's. This suggests that the actual weakness that was employed to kill Zhaitan was similar to Kralkatorrik's - turning his own energy against himself.

    Thanks for pointing that out. I went through to see what was actually said about the Vacuumagic Polariser, and this was it:

    Professor Gorr: Hypothetically, the Vacuumagic Polarizer will reverse the magical essence of Zhaitan's tangible will within the Risen, and therefore, destroy them.

    It wasn't so much turning Zhaitan's magic against it, but that it tried to reverse the polarity of the magical essence Zhaitan's will employed. Since this wasn't trying to reverse his sphere of influence of death within the [Life-Death] magical domain, my theory would argue that the device effectively tried to fight off Zhaitan's sphere of influence of shadow within the magical domain of [Will-Shadow] by trying to reverse Zhaitan's shadow influence upon his minions by overloading them with "Will".

    I'll try to see how Konig's criticisms could be addressed later, I just don't have the time to reply to all of it now :) But just to address why I would consider Flow the polar end of the magical domain that contains crystal, a major component of this theory is that there are domains of magic and that they are characterized by polarities - by the abundance of X and by the scarcity of X. Similarly, Will and Spirit can be interchangeable in this regard - an absence of either could easily correspond to Shadow and domination. I also don't think a dragon's weakness necessarily has to be tied to its spheres of influence, but it can definitely be associated to them.

    What my theory is using as a basis are magical domains that represent the polarization into he abundance and absence of an element, the "handles", and the "spokes" that are the sphere of influence the dragons have over the polarized ends of two different domains of magic. These are the latest mappings:

    Primordus - [Fire-Ice], [Ground-Air]
    Kralkatorrik - [Mutable/Disorder/Flow-Stasis/Order/Crystal]. [Ground-Air]
    Jormag - [Fire-Ice], [Will/Spirit-Shadow]
    Mordremoth - [Plants/Life-Death], [Mind-Madness]
    Zhaitan - [Plants/Life-Death], [Will/Spirit-Shadow]
    S..? - [Mutable/Disorder/Flow-Stasis/Order/Crystal], [Mind-Madness]

  • @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Yes, killing Zhaitan's specialised minions certainly weakened his position... but the other Elder Dragons we've killed also required knocking out hordes of minions and a few champions before we could get a shot. The only reason this was particularly so in Zhaitan's case was that, unlike Mordremoth, Kralkatorrik, and Primordus who proactively sought out sources of magic themselves, Zhaitan relied on the Mouths to feed, which meant he could be starved and weakened before engaging him directly.

    As you said. The reason why it was effective against Zhaitan - the reason why it was uniquely effective against Zhaitan - is because Zhaitan used the Mouth to eat, and the Eyes to see, while other Elder Dragons didn't do such things. One could argue this is more a weakness of method, but I find it hard to believe the other Elder Dragons wouldn't utilize that practice if they could, so they wouldn't have to hunt down magic themselves.

    The cannons, meanwhile... The Glory of Tyria's weapons employed principles derived from the Vacuumagic Polariser, which meant that it operated by using the energy of Zhaitan's minions - something which had previously been shown to have been as effective on Zhaitan's minions as the "fake" Dragonsblood weapons are on Kralkatorrik's. This suggests that the actual weakness that was employed to kill Zhaitan was similar to Kralkatorrik's - turning his own energy against himself. "Cannons" is technically accurate, but they were specifically cannons that were shooting packets of repolarised Zhaitan energy. So either Andrew was being coy in his response, or (as often happens with ArenaNet devs) he forgot the detail.

    Zhaitan's weakened state, however, probably did contribute to being able to kill him with energy that had come from his minions, as opposed to Kralkatorrik who required a spear coated with his own blood to finish the job.

    As Schwarzwald said, the Vacuumagic Polariser wasn't hitting Zhaitan and his minions with Zhaitan's magic, but rather reversing the flow of that magic (or "Zhaitan's tangable will"). This is why Zhaitan's body is literally falling apart during the battle after being hit by the grappling hook cannons on the lower deck. I wouldn't quite equate that to being "killing like with like" such as with Kralkatorrik. Rather, that seems like a method which should be useable on all dragon minions (arguably is, as we see Pact canons one-shot mordrem and the Pact airship cannons be very effective against mordrem and branded in The Silverwastes and Dragonfall respectively).

    Of course there's also the Mega-LIT cannon that was based off of Kudu's research and the field tests on Tequatl, though that's more akin to bombarding Mordremoth with bombs from choppers like in Dragon's Stand or bombarding Kralkatorrik with airship cannons like in Dragonfall.

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  • We fought Elder Dragon using ther own "weapon", because all Elder Dragons have their strenght which is also their weakness. Mordremoth was using mind to turn Sylvari into puppets. We have defeated Mordremoth through his mind.
    Kralkatorrik's aspect is ability to crystalize objects. We couldn't just turn Kralk into a shining crystal, so we had a weapon made of his blood. I think we had to use some of his power locked in the weapon against Kralk's heart. We couldn't just set his body on fire. Kralk's body was dead.
    Zhaitan... his aspect was "death", so we... just killed him. No special weapons, magic or way. Pew-pew with a megalaser. Destroying his body worked very well.
    And now we have Jormag, Primordus and Steve left. If we will fight other Elder Dragons (remember that Jormag and Primordus are sleeping, so they're not a danger for now), it won't be "Fight fire with ice". This will be "Fight fire with fire".

    Commander, to ME!

  • @Antycypator.9874 said:
    If we will fight other Elder Dragons (remember that Jormag and Primordus are sleeping, so they're not a danger for now), it won't be "Fight fire with ice". This will be "Fight fire with fire".

    Except we've already proven that Jormag must be fought with fire, and Primordus with ice.

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  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    As proven by Mythbusters, resonance breaks crystals in the real world as well.
    Without getting into the more complicated scientific explanation, I'll just say that it is a known fact that crystals are always in a constant state of resonance that us humans can't perceive with our senses. If you take the frequency of that resonance and incrementally add more volume/energy, the crystal eventually reaches a breaking point and shatters.
    The comparison to Kralkatorrik should be pretty self-explanatory, though I'm not sure how they explain the minions not being good enough. Tecnically they should be because they resonate on the same frequency as the ED himself does.

  • Edelweiss.4261Edelweiss.4261 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 21, 2019

    This was, if nothing else, an interesting read. Each dragon having a domain of magic and domain of control could be an interesting alteration. Mordremoth controls through the mind. Zhaitan controls through turning subjects into shadows of themselves. This could open things up to things like your take on Kralk's control by "order". I would be glad to see an element of this at some point, but I suspect things will be much simpler. One thing to note is that things can change. I vaguely remember something about Zhaitan's second domain being thought of after death. Perhaps, I'm mistaken?

    Edit: I just realized "controls through the mind" and "turning subjects into shadows of themselves" kind of sounds the same. I mean that Mord seems to "implant thoughts" whereas Zhaitan made most "mindless" according to the wiki page on Risen. This seems distinct in (primary)method of control. As an aside, the concept art on that page makes me want more Risen.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 21, 2019

    @Edelweiss.4261 said:
    whereas Zhaitan made most "mindless" according to the wiki page on Risen.

    All dragon minions (sans the Mordrem Guard because sylvari are special cupcakes) are nigh mindless. Risen are actually the least mindless, since even their unranked mooks actually speak unlike even icebrood or branded.

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  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Edelweiss.4261 said:
    whereas Zhaitan made most "mindless" according to the wiki page on Risen.

    All dragon minions (sans the Mordrem Guard because sylvari are special cupcakes) are nigh mindless. Risen are actually the least mindless, since even their unranked mooks actually speak unlike even icebrood or branded.

    There was actually an interview on this. Intelligence of minions is a function of how much magic the dragon is willing to invest in that minion. Most minions have the bare minimum needed to be able to move and fight: intelligence is not essential as long as the minion can recognise enemies and obey orders, while most champions have enough power invested in them to be truly sapient. (I'm not sure, to be honest, that regular Risen are less mindless than other minions, as opposed to being programmed to make certain utterances to enhance the creepy factor.)

    Mordrem Guard are an exception because they don't have the typical dragon-minion link, the control method there being more akin to brainwashing.

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