Make buffs, not nerfcraft.

Hello,

I see extreme level of envy in the community of this game. If one Prof seems to be OP, it is being looked at with anger, envy.Then, Topics of 'nerf X oh dear god it is so OP' grows like the shrooms after rain in countryside.

I propose to stop it. Stop the hate-train of nerfing everything.Most of MMOs went the nerf path - is this the solution? Ex. WoW has been so pruned, simplified over the years - have it ended up healthy for the game? No. Game is a disaster nowadays (I played it for 8 years straight, now I just can't. When I see Ion's face - new CEO - I want to punch the screen).

Instead of whining prof X is too strong, why don'y you try to play it? Understand the weaknesses and play around these. It may be hard, but that's what skill is. some Profs will be easier to beatdown with particular ones - it is normal, so sometimes you simply should loose (if skill level is similar, which is unmeasurable).

Checking forums also does not seems to be a good idea, there are only whiners here. Hate and inability to overcome better players are leading to forum posts so angries can drop off some of the frustration.

I wanted to play Mesmer, Mirage, style seemed cool to me - checked forums. I got so disencouraged by the hate, I see it ends up in trash can due to the cry on forums before I hit 80.Then, I checked Weaver - archetype I also like. Again I checked the forums. Again it's on the hate-train. Weaver could also be a bit too hard for me, which actually explains its potential power.Then I thou... Scrapper, looks nice- checked forums. Everybody says it is nerfed to the hell. I got disencouraged again.I created this Engi and I am still not sure which way to go - Scrapper, which is soooo bad according to forums, or Holo, which so sooooo BROKEN OP.

I dunno guys, seems like there is only black and white. OP or trash.Feels bad to read forums.

I will hesitate in the future to actually enjoy the game, I guess.

I don't see why you are comparing to other MMOs as if GW2 is new and has to look elsewhere for balance ideas. It isn't. There has been 7 years of balance, in that time we've had periods of good balance and bad balance and can learn from what worked and didn't. Almost everyone who was here from the start has seen how the introduction of massively overbuffed elite specs resulted in garbage balance, unfun gameplay, and skill deficient players competing higher than they should be due to easy mode builds. We saw it with HoT, we saw it again with PoF. Power creeped specs destroy balance and dumb down gameplay.Also, it seems like you aren't level 80 yet, but you're swapping classes because what people on the sPvP forum say? Play whatever class is fun dude. I can guarantee you right now there isn't a single class that does not have a viable-in-ranked build.

Yo, i cant agree with the title in any inch. "If everything is OP, then nothing is OP" is even more unhealthy than nerfcraft. If we would focus on buffs instead of nerfs we would end in a place where every duel woud look like one-shot build vs one-shot build and first one attack without enemy dodge ends as "gg, wp, l2p".

I agree that forums are overloaded with q_q threads made most likely by whiny kids or people that suspect mindless spamming skills will make em gods of the game. Latest "weaver op, pls nerf" thread was imo the best example of that. I also agree that BfA WoW is trash, long time ago it used to be good, skill-based game, nowadays you need only one hand, 5 buttons on action bar and you can call yourself Rank 1.

But speaking of gw2, sure If u test in-game class called by every1 "op", see what makes it "op", this will improve your gameplay for sure. But it wont change the fact that you need to dodge everything, hit all your skills and most likely still lose MU or at best end as a draw while your opponent can just roll over keyboard with neighbour cat. Seems fun? I dont think so.

Id say play whatever you want and makes you enjoy the game and dont care about forums. Mirage? Nerfed many times, but also ressurected same amount of times, theres always a way. Weaver? As a Weaver main I can tell you its perfectly fine, hard because of pianist gameplay, but still ok. Scrapper? Nerfed, but boi, it deserved nerf, maybe not so big, but surely did. Holo? Yes, broken, but ANet wont "fix" it any time soon, so just enjoy if u like it.

Perfect balance doesnt exist, but as proper functioning dev team, ANet should constantly look what needs a nerf and what needs a buff. As we all know, they have no idea how PvP works so its kinda hard to show em what's malfunctioning, if they read right forum threads and nerf OP things, its good, but if not...well, happens lol.

@Derm.4932 said:Also, it seems like you aren't level 80 yet, but you're swapping classes because what people on the sPvP forum say? Play whatever class is fun dude. I can guarantee you right now there isn't a single class that does not have a viable-in-ranked build.

I am reading before I play, because I am getting attached to what I play.If majority of posts about, let's say Scrapper, says that it's bad - I am being disencouraged. It is basic behaviour and it is correct behaviour.I am not looking for the meta, because I am not meta player. I just want my character to feel fine - not bad, not op. I am afraid of OP state as from experience in gaming I saw overnerfing as pretty common action in such cases.

@"Widmo.3186" said:Yo, i cant agree with the title in any inch. "If everything is OP, then nothing is OP" is even more unhealthy than nerfcraft. If we would focus on buffs instead of nerfs we would end in a place where every duel woud look like one-shot build vs one-shot build and first one attack without enemy dodge ends as "gg, wp, l2p".

I agree that forums are overloaded with q_q threads made most likely by whiny kids or people that suspect mindless spamming skills will make em gods of the game. Latest "weaver op, pls nerf" thread was imo the best example of that. I also agree that BfA WoW is trash, long time ago it used to be good, skill-based game, nowadays you need only one hand, 5 buttons on action bar and you can call yourself Rank 1.

But speaking of gw2, sure If u test in-game class called by every1 "op", see what makes it "op", this will improve your gameplay for sure. But it wont change the fact that you need to dodge everything, hit all your skills and most likely still lose MU or at best end as a draw while your opponent can just roll over keyboard with neighbour cat. Seems fun? I dont think so.

Id say play whatever you want and makes you enjoy the game and dont care about forums. Mirage? Nerfed many times, but also ressurected same amount of times, theres always a way. Weaver? As a Weaver main I can tell you its perfectly fine, hard because of pianist gameplay, but still ok. Scrapper? Nerfed, but boi, it deserved nerf, maybe not so big, but surely did. Holo? Yes, broken, but ANet wont "fix" it any time soon, so just enjoy if u like it.

Perfect balance doesnt exist, but as proper functioning dev team, ANet should constantly look what needs a nerf and what needs a buff. As we all know, they have no idea how PvP works so its kinda hard to show em what's malfunctioning, if they read right forum threads and nerf OP things, its good, but if not...well, happens lol.

Thank you for that reply. Like you noticed, I am not experienced in GW2, so my fears from games I actually played applied here. Reading forums confirmed my fears so here we are.You made me believe in the Dev team of GW2 to some degree now. I am still sceptical, but less.

-anet has promoted spammy brain dead low counter play builds for too long resulting in a player base that refuse to learn how to fight other builds that they find difficult to fight. If a build kills them or isn't a easy target its OP in their eyes.

• if a class, even one considered weak gets a buff in any area even if it's a meager slight buff nerf cries stating the class/spec is now op will flood the forums. Most times builds have barely changed and has same viability it has had for yrs but now it's being used a bit more so that adds to the OP cries. Weaver got a few buffs but nothing crazy and now their op. Thief got poison traitt n its condi line that allows poison application on all weapons not just dagger but no increase in stacks really other than more reliable application and now its op. Poison field from sbow was usually ignored by opponents due to it being of little threat(real fun way for a skill to be) but now there's people stating its OP now simply cuz thief can stack poison now reliable and can pose a threat,oh nooooo.
• there are builds and specs like halo that do need shaves as they can do too much of everything and be great at it and some of the players fotm holo are actually calling thing OP on other classes which is halarious. It's never ending.

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:-anet has promoted spammy brain dead low counter play builds for too long resulting in a player base that refuse to learn how to fight other builds that they find difficult to fight. If a build kills them or isn't a easy target its OP in their eyes.

• if a class, even one considered weak gets a buff in any area even if it's a meager slight buff nerf cries stating the class/spec is now op will flood the forums. Most times builds have barely changed and has same viability it has had for yrs but now it's being used a bit more so that adds to the OP cries. Weaver got a few buffs but nothing crazy and now their op. Thief got poison traitt n its condi line that allows poison application on all weapons not just dagger but no increase in stacks really other than more reliable application and now its op. Poison field from sbow was usually ignored by opponents due to it being of little threat(real fun way for a skill to be) but now there's people stating its OP now simply cuz thief can stack poison now reliable and can pose a threat,oh nooooo.
• there are builds and specs like halo that do need shaves as they can do too much of everything and be great at it and some of the players fotm holo are actually calling thing OP on other classes which is halarious. It's never ending.

Yup, reading forums is pointless and disencouraging to even play the game.Luckily I saw some posts about Devs ignoring forums, so I guess it has its ups...

This is just so hilariously oblivious of what is going on. GW2 needs major nerfs to fix the gameplay. Arms race balancing never works; it's how we arrived at the current bad state. Buffing more will do nothing but give more instant kill builds and more automated full defenses. None of that is fun. And complaonts against weaver and condi thief are totally legit: these bulls just aren't fun to play against because they evade for days.

WoW's ability pruning was actually a very good thing. It had too many niche abilities and the classes were too similar. And I've played multiple classes there to see the good and bad. Where WoW went wrong is making ability use too formulaic and basic; there weren't enough interesting short cooldown (~20sec) abilities to break up the monotony and give some agency. In BfA, some of those were even removed. Completely different issue from GW2, but one to be aware of when making nerfs.

@Exedore.6320 said:This is just so hilariously oblivious of what is going on. GW2 needs major nerfs to fix the gameplay. Arms race balancing never works; it's how we arrived at the current bad state. Buffing more will do nothing but give more instant kill builds and more automated full defenses. None of that is fun. And complaonts against weaver and condi thief are totally legit: these bulls just aren't fun to play against because they evade for days.

WoW's ability pruning was actually a very good thing. It had too many niche abilities and the classes were too similar. And I've played multiple classes there to see the good and bad. Where WoW went wrong is making ability use too formulaic and basic; there weren't enough interesting short cooldown (~20sec) abilities to break up the monotony and give some agency. In BfA, some of those were even removed. Completely different issue from GW2, but one to be aware of when making nerfs.

Ur right the game had been powercrept to far. Problem is classes that are the worst offenders usually get slight shaves while other classes that are struggling get builds destroyed. For example u have classes like holo,SB ,GB,scourge and slb that have been overperforming for yrs and alot of players jump to those because it's common knowledge as to how powerful they are. Ele who had been on weak side for a long while now got some slight buffs now players from those mentioned classes are calling for ele nerfs. Some classes got some slight shaves and now anything that wasnt a threat before is a bit of one now and are getting threads calling them op. Another example is the poison trait in DA. It's no stronger than any condo traits in an other classes condi line but because few classes got a shave slightly and now the poison trate is somewhat effective its op.Slb is still very strong but players claimed it was destroyed be the recent nerfs yet it's still very strong unlike druid. The list goes on. This game does need a lot of de-powercreep across its classes but anet has to have a vision for itself and balance classes to its vision cuz for the most part gw2 has a playerbase u definitely shouldn't listen to for balance cuz it's so incredibly biased towards their own class and the fact anything that challenges them is op yet the build they're using has little counter play but is fine. balance would be a even greater mess than what we have now.

@Exedore.6320 said:WoW's ability pruning was actually a very good thing. It had too many niche abilities and the classes were too similar. And I've played multiple classes there to see the good and bad. Where WoW went wrong is making ability use too formulaic and basic; there weren't enough interesting short cooldown (~20sec) abilities to break up the monotony and give some agency. In BfA, some of those were even removed. Completely different issue from GW2, but one to be aware of when making nerfs.

I disagree on that part.In GW2, where you can dodge anything, burst-combo is the way fights are being decided. If you want to prolong fights, which are pretty long anyway, do take dodge mechanic into consideration.Although, If you say the Buff path was here for some time, nerfs won't hurt I guess. I need to believe you first though.

@Greyjoy.5167 said:Hello,

I see extreme level of envy in the community of this game. If one Prof seems to be OP, it is being looked at with anger, envy.Then, Topics of 'nerf X oh dear god it is so OP' grows like the shrooms after rain in countryside.

I propose to stop it. Stop the hate-train of nerfing everything.Most of MMOs went the nerf path - is this the solution? Ex. WoW has been so pruned, simplified over the years - have it ended up healthy for the game? No. Game is a disaster nowadays (I played it for 8 years straight, now I just can't. When I see Ion's face - new CEO - I want to punch the screen).

Instead of whining prof X is too strong, why don'y you try to play it? Understand the weaknesses and play around these. It may be hard, but that's what skill is. some Profs will be easier to beatdown with particular ones - it is normal, so sometimes you simply should loose (if skill level is similar, which is unmeasurable).

Checking forums also does not seems to be a good idea, there are only whiners here. Hate and inability to overcome better players are leading to forum posts so angries can drop off some of the frustration.

I wanted to play Mesmer, Mirage, style seemed cool to me - checked forums. I got so disencouraged by the hate, I see it ends up in trash can due to the cry on forums before I hit 80.Then, I checked Weaver - archetype I also like. Again I checked the forums. Again it's on the hate-train. Weaver could also be a bit too hard for me, which actually explains its potential power.Then I thou... Scrapper, looks nice- checked forums. Everybody says it is nerfed to the hell. I got disencouraged again.I created this Engi and I am still not sure which way to go - Scrapper, which is soooo bad according to forums, or Holo, which so sooooo BROKEN OP.

I dunno guys, seems like there is only black and white. OP or trash.Feels bad to read forums.

I will hesitate in the future to actually enjoy the game, I guess.

I agree in so far that there is a tendency to nerf what makes a class special and this is not good I quit LoL because of this they nerfed every char until they were roughly the same expect naturally the new ones.

On the other hand nerfs are necessary when the build is really broken but Arena NT often over do this I think the reason is Arena NT doesn't do most nerfs in one go which is good but they stick to their plan even when its shown the nerfs was already good enough. Basically I have the impression they work with the meta from 3 months before. I can only speculate it is possible they use metric and they say those classes have still high winning rates. Problem is this is only naturally the pros will stick the the last OP build even when its nerfed recently so the result has not necessary to do how the class really works ATM.

The only way to check this is going into the field and test it for yourself also the wining is sometimes absolute nuts in the forum e.g Weaver isn't OP in an form in pvp.Also I personal loves to stick TO a class and learn it problem is when through overbalancing a class becomes not viable any more e.g. DPS Staff Tempest in PvE

unused things should get buffed.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:unused things should get buffed.

This is true also but as soon as they receive a buff and are seeing use more often players will cry OP.

There is a need to bring down a notch the powercreep brought to the game since HoT. How can ANet do that by buffing things instead of nerfing them?It's not that I don't agree that some people should first try to adapt their builds to counter the nemesis for which they beg for nerfs, but, there is still a need to bring down the powercreep.

@Exedore.6320 said:This is just so hilariously oblivious of what is going on. GW2 needs major nerfs to fix the gameplay. Arms race balancing never works; it's how we arrived at the current bad state. Buffing more will do nothing but give more instant kill builds and more automated full defenses. None of that is fun. And complaonts against weaver and condi thief are totally legit: these bulls just aren't fun to play against because they evade for days.

WoW's ability pruning was actually a very good thing. It had too many niche abilities and the classes were too similar. And I've played multiple classes there to see the good and bad. Where WoW went wrong is making ability use too formulaic and basic; there weren't enough interesting short cooldown (~20sec) abilities to break up the monotony and give some agency. In BfA, some of those were even removed. Completely different issue from GW2, but one to be aware of when making nerfs.

You must have not played WOW at all, because they over pruned casters and took away mobility from many casters. Just look at warlocks how they got nerfed hardcore over and over just like (necromancers in GW) mobility? gutted. The removal and gutting of mobility made them forced to tank and have to have massive tanking to survive.

I'm sorry but that's a terrible example.

@Greyjoy.5167

No

I would agree with you only if classes were underpowered, which isn't the case at all. Look for videos on yt from the beginning of GW2 around 2012~2013 and see what was the combat back then and compare it to todays "skillful gameplay" aka rolling face on keyboard and getting free shinies. Back in the day 10k Backstab was already far too high damage for engage from stealth skill, but currently you can see 15k+ every few seconds, that's unacceptable. All classes need a serious nerfs or even a nuke from orbit. HoT and PoF damaged game a lot with it's powercreep, you may think that you can solve everything with famous "l2p" or "just adapt lol", but there is a limit to that and simply you still won't be able to beat xyz.Buffing classes won't solve a thing, it'll make things even worse and even more people will quit this game for good.Play whatever you want, after all at some point you'll use more or less every spec and class available in game for specific reasons.The only truly "underpowered" speces are the core ones like Engineer, Necromancer, Elementalist, etc., all of HoT and PoF are much better and stronger, even if people write stuff like: "Scrapper/Mirage/Chronomancer/Berserker/WhateverHoTorPoFspec are nerfed to the ground and unplayable" is a lie, all of them are powercrept, some of them simply are overshadowed by stronger options and thats all.

@"TrollingDemigod.3041" said:I would agree with you only if classes were underpowered, which isn't the case at all. Look for videos on yt from the beginning of GW2 around 2012~2013 and see what was the combat back then and compare it to todays "skillful gameplay" aka rolling face on keyboard and getting free shinies. Back in the day 10k Backstab was already far too high damage for engage from stealth skill, but currently you can see 15k+ every few seconds, that's unacceptable. All classes need a serious nerfs or even a nuke from orbit. HoT and PoF damaged game a lot with it's powercreep, you may think that you can solve everything with famous "l2p" or "just adapt lol", but there is a limit to that and simply you still won't be able to beat xyz.Buffing classes won't solve a thing, it'll make things even worse and even more people will quit this game for good.Play whatever you want, after all at some point you'll use more or less every spec and class available in game for specific reasons.The only truly "underpowered" speces are the core ones like Engineer, Necromancer, Elementalist, etc., all of HoT and PoF are much better and stronger, even if people write stuff like: "Scrapper/Mirage/Chronomancer/Berserker/WhateverHoTorPoFspec are nerfed to the ground and unplayable" is a lie, all of them are powercrept, some of them simply are overshadowed by stronger options and thats all.

Yikes, what a truth-bomb.He is right tho.

Also, Plat 1 and even Plat 2 isn't hard to get to on any class tbh.Some classes obviously have more viable builds or builds that rank higher in terms of the meta-tier....but frankly, if you are good enough, you can pretty much make anything work at a semi-decent level.

So don't get discouraged by what the forums say. "LiTErAlLY UnPlAYabLE" for these forums basically means, that something got its dmg cut by 10-15% percent.This community is full of drama-queens who got accustomed to get carried by powercrept 1-shot-shenanigans (preferably with as little counterplay to it as possible).On that note.....keep swinging that hammer ANet :thumbsup:

@Axl.8924 said:You must have not played WOW at all, because they over pruned casters and took away mobility from many casters. Just look at warlocks how they got nerfed hardcore over and over just like (necromancers in GW) mobility? gutted. The removal and gutting of mobility made them forced to tank and have to have massive tanking to survive.

I'm sorry but that's a terrible example.Or you haven't. I played classic through WotLK, end of Cata, end of WoD into start of Legion. I did BfA pre-patch on PTR. In Legion I tried all 3 paladin specs, holy and disc priest, Blood DK, and a little bit of ele shaman (got bored of brainless daily quests by then).

The majority of the pruned classes were far better, and you never really missed most of the removed abilities. 15 buttons worked just as well as 30. The few failed specs were the ones where players lacked agency or the highlighted abilities weren't engaging. For example, I hated how holy priest in Legion focused so heavily on Prayer of Mending, an ability over which you have limited control. Generally speaking though, the only people who objected were the ones who enjoy whack-a-mole - hitting the ability that lights up semi-randomly in some kind of priority order.

Now if you're talking some of the BfA screw-ups, that's a different story. That was a failure to tune abilities after the removal of artifact traits and the removal of the wrong abilities - ones which gave agency. That's a bit problem with WoW IMO. You have 1.5-2min (or higher) cooldowns where you throw everything into a 20sec window and the rest is just monotony. It needs more soft skill in the abilities to make their usage a bit more dynamic. A good example of bad removal choices was the removal the shaman ability that let them quickly re-position on a 20-30sec CD.

@"Dadnir.5038" said:There is a need to bring down a notch the powercreep brought to the game since HoT. How can ANet do that by buffing things instead of nerfing them?It's not that I don't agree that some people should first try to adapt their builds to counter the nemesis for which they beg for nerfs, but, there is still a need to bring down the powercreep.

"Since HoT" is an over-simplification though. The game was in a very good state of balance right before PoF came out. Any HoT classes that have been problematic after that point have also been buffed after that, or the meta shifted to give them space like in Herald's case(the OH Sword rework had a part in that too).

@edit: removed first sentence of my comment since op was talking about WoW, which I misunderstood. Rest still holds.

Anet straight up buffed the hell out of the classes over the years, especially with every new expansion. Pre-PoF was much better sPvP balance-wise (even thief was viable for some period during HoT and not just because of shortbow#5), vanilla was even better and that's not just rose-colored glasses. I remember a time when 10k full bersi thief backstab crit was "ermagerd op dmg, plz nerf q_q".And now 10k are more like 1 or 2 autoattacks for most builds. Keep in mind that we didn't get hp or toughness buff, quite the opposite, sPvP has become a big aoe condi spam, at least teamfights. So we have not only WAY higher direct damage but we now also have constant (pretty much) unavoidable damage just lying around.

Unless Anet nerfs ALL the classes and especially elite-specs to pre-HoT power level I don't really see how this game could be balanced at all.I know a lot of people just straight up HATE getting a nerf to their main class but keep on the power creep and sPvP is dead before the new expansion drops. And if it's not dead until then, then the new elite specs will probably be the final nail in the coffin.

@DoomNexus.5324 said:

@"Greyjoy.5167" said:(I played it for 8 years straight, now I just can't. When I see Ion's face - new CEO - I want to punch the screen).

If you would read my post, you would know I was referring to WoW in the sentence you quoted. Busted.Therefore, I stopped reading yours as it is most likely just ignorance.

@Yannir.4132 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:There is a need to bring down a notch the powercreep brought to the game since HoT. How can ANet do that by buffing things instead of nerfing them?It's not that I don't agree that some people should first try to adapt their builds to counter the nemesis for which they beg for nerfs, but, there is still a need to bring down the powercreep.

You really believe core and elite specs were balance just before PoF? Nope, certainly not. The powercreep was already there even if the pool of elite professions felt like they were in a state of general balance. HoT introduced elite specializations that felt "mandatory" to take for most of the professions, this is what I'm refering to when I say "since HoT".

I can play a game with terrible balance as long as it's fun, WoW was a perfect example of this. Its never been balanced but classes were fun gameplay wise and at its peak in wotlk / MoP then drastically ruined in the following xpacs so toddlers could play the game using 1 hand. Esports movement favoring 'balance' over fun and complexity, same as GW2.

They needed to focus on fun and killing toxic gameplays that simply aren't enjoyable to fight regardless of their power lvls. And now there is no where else to go other than MOBA. You can play WoW and pvp is literally just pve rotatioin hitting a healer for hours while their health doesn't move an inch or they heal to full in 1 spell. Play GW2 where pretty much everything is toxic and unfun to fight unless you play those unfun to fight builds.

This game is pve first and foremost with 0 regard for pvp , it shows with all the stupid cheese pve specs that always pop up in pvp. Why you think people hate mesmer so much, its not just the dmg they do, its how cancer they are gameplay wise. And these builds are an endless constant, now it's DD condi, what will come next after that is nerfed into oblivion ? Another equally toxic build guaranteed. It was too late for this game years ago when they refuse more modes and ignore how unhealthy some builds are for peoples sanity. They just need to support GW1 for real pvp.

@Exedore.6320 said:

@Axl.8924 said:You must have not played WOW at all, because they over pruned casters and took away mobility from many casters. Just look at warlocks how they got nerfed hardcore over and over just like (necromancers in GW) mobility? gutted. The removal and gutting of mobility made them forced to tank and have to have massive tanking to survive.

I'm sorry but that's a terrible example.Or you haven't. I played classic through WotLK, end of Cata, end of WoD into start of Legion. I did BfA pre-patch on PTR. In Legion I tried all 3 paladin specs, holy and disc priest, Blood DK, and a little bit of ele shaman (got bored of brainless daily quests by then).

Im talking about the removal of mobility don't tell me removing mobility from casters and making them hardcast while standing still being a turret is a good design.Also some of the stuff taken out dumbed down classes.

The bfa changes was also ridiculous.