Duo Qing is borderline match manipulation

We all know the gw2 population is too low to create any sort of competitive or remotely fair environment in regular ranked Qs which means one side is always going to have an advantage versus the other side simply because there arent enough players available for a balanced match. Now if you look at duo Q its basically guaranteed nearly 100% of the time that the duo Q team is going to have an advantage because for a fair match there would need to be another duo Q of high rating on the enemy team which is rarely the case and high rated Duo Q players tend to dodge each other for easy matches.

Ill give you a perfect example of what is the current system in gw2 and try to compare it to a game with high population like overwatch. Basically lets imagne for a second that overwatch has a low playerbase and lets say i am a masters level player 3500 rating. If I Duo Q with my friend that is also 3500 rating and we end up farming people that are 2000-3000 rating for the entiere season, at the end of the season me and my friend would end up at something like 4500+ rating which would basically be an inflated rating gained by winning against lower rated players while duo Qing.

Its basically what is happening in gw2, there isn't enough players in platinum + to balance out the duo Qs of 1600+ rating. its how people end up with 1800+ rating but in reality they are not even a 1800 rating caliber player, they could be as low as 1600 but since the playerbase is too tiny and duo Q can pick the class they are playing/ voice coms and they are guaranteed to have 1 less lower rated player on their team its almost a guaranteed victory 90% of the time.

Why do you think the top 10 players on the leaderboards have 80-90% win ratio? The only way that is possible is by winning against players much lower rated than you are. Its why even the top 100 in overwatch dont reach 60% win rate because they are fighting people of equal rating and they cant be winning 80% of the time or 100% of the time like in gw2.

Now obviously its not the players fault that this game dosent have any players but duo Q just makes it impossible to solo Q and not really enjoyable if you re going to lose as soon as you fight a duo Q while you dont have a duo Q on your team. Before people say " why you just dont duo Q". because its not fun to have easy games and win all the time, whats the point to duo Q if you are guaranteeed to win all the time? I mean sure you get alot of gold from pips but i dont see any other benefit, its why arenanet should make a team Q and a solo Q leaderboard instead of having unranked, it dosent serve any purpose. Just make solo Q which will be the casual mode by default and 5 man teams will compete in the 5 man team Q.Having duo Qs against solos is just not fun and not competitive or fair for anybody. Solo Q players are tired of getting farmed by duos and high rated duos are tired of effortlessly winning 90% of their games, its not fun for anybody, there needs to be separate Qs.

Do me a favor and duo queue your first 20 games next season and post a screenshot of you going 18-2 please.

Theres a reason why people dont want duo Q to be removed, so they can have their easy wins and claim to be a top tier player in a dead game. LUL . Congratz on being rank 1 in a game with 300 players, thats a huge accomplishment.

@"Hex.8714" said:Ill give you a perfect example of what is the current system in gw2 and try to compare it to a game with high population like overwatch. Basically lets imagne for a second that overwatch has a low playerbase and lets say i am a masters level player 3500 rating. If I Duo Q with my friend that is also 3500 rating and we end up farming people that are 2000-3000 rating for the entiere season, at the end of the season me and my friend would end up at something like 4500+ rating which would basically be an inflated rating gained by winning against lower rated players while duo Qing.

Now imagine if Overwatch had no cap on how far apart two ratings could be to queue together, because that's how ranked sPvP do.

Towards the end of a season; once those same Legends have a Leaderboard spot they're comfortable with from DuoQing with another Legend, one of them can literally just hop on an alt that tanked rating down to silver or bronze(Which is actual throwing/Match manipulation) to queue with their Legend buddy for easy games. That keeps away decay, keeps up with LB requirements, and removes half the risk.

Now obviously its not the players fault that this game dosent have any players but duo Q just makes it impossible to solo Q and not really enjoyable if you re going to lose as soon as you fight a duo Q while you dont have a duo Q on your team. Before people say " why you just dont duo Q". because its not fun to have easy games and win all the time, whats the point to duo Q if you are guaranteeed to win all the time? I mean sure you get alot of gold from pips but i dont see any other benefit, its why arenanet should make a team Q and a solo Q leaderboard instead of having unranked, it dosent serve any purpose. Just make solo Q which will be the casual mode by default and 5 man teams will compete in the 5 man team Q.Having duo Qs against solos is just not fun and not competitive or fair for anybody. Solo Q players are tired of getting farmed by duos and high rated duos are tired of effortlessly winning 90% of their games, its not fun for anybody, there needs to be separate Qs.

I'm going to bold this for you, because this is honestly one of the most sensible and understanding stances i've ever read; especially when its in response to blatant match manipulation, or at the very least; exploitation.

That, and you might get a few Legends here that immediately feel threatened, so hopefully that does some good towards putting them at ease. This is actually really well worded, and I totally agree with you. The Queues should be split. No sort of merged queue(Like DuoQ as it is now) should ever exist in this game again. It just isn't sustainable at all.

I have a high winrate solo que. People don't get better because they blame the matchmaker and duo que for their losses rather than their skill.

You do realize, you guys only think duos are unfair, are when two good players duo... right? Two bad players duoing aren't an issue. Why? Because duo quing isn't the problem. The lack of skill on your end is the reason you're losing.

If your winrate all of a sudden tanked to 10% because duo ques are dominating and solo players don't have a chance. Then yes, maybe there's something there that needs fixing. But if good duos have high winrates because they're good, and everyone else has a winrate around 50%, that means the matchmaker is working.

Also, the "effortless" wins are only when the other team gives up. You fail to acknowledge the fact that the whatever competitive players are left in this game also understand mechanics and rotations far better than the majority of the population. You also fail to acknowledge the other bad players on their team that they have to work extremely hard to carry (sometimes this is impossible and even though you win a 2v4 your team wipes and loses the other two nodes).

@"Skyronight.6370" said:Theres a reason why people dont want duo Q to be removed, so they can have their easy wins and claim to be a top tier player in a dead game. LUL . Congratz on being rank 1 in a game with 300 players, thats a huge accomplishment.

Basically now it's a few legit players that want to actually try and the majority is pve reward hunters, wintraders and bots.

Lol at being the "top" player less then a city of players.

@"shadowpass.4236" said:I have a high winrate solo que. People don't get better because they blame the matchmaker and duo que for their losses rather than their skill.

You do realize, you guys only think duos are unfair, are when two good players duo... right? Two bad players duoing aren't an issue. Why? Because duo quing isn't the problem. The lack of skill on your end is the reason you're losing.

If your winrate all of a sudden tanked to 10% because duo ques are dominating and solo players don't have a chance. Then yes, maybe there's something there that needs fixing. But if good duos have high winrates because they're good, and everyone else has a winrate around 50%, that means the matchmaker is working.

Also, the "effortless" wins are only when the other team gives up. You fail to acknowledge the fact that the whatever competitive players are left in this game also understand mechanics and rotations far better than the majority of the population. You also fail to acknowledge the other bad players on their team that they have to work extremely hard to carry (sometimes this is impossible and even though you win a 2v4 your team wipes and loses the other two nodes).

Being able to quickly communicate over chat will always be better than not having that ability. Making your builds match up with a partner is also an advantage you will always have, as opposed to those who queue solo and have to roll the dice on if their build works well with another. Both of these are the benefits of a people queuing together and they give a massive edge over those who don't have that. Your high solo score rating doesn't change a fact, nor does my own score change that. When you match up against a team that has more DuoQ people than your own, you are at an unfair disadvantage. To say someone who queues alone doesn't have skill because they are actively targeted by a duo who can easily and quickly coordinate moves with these advantages is disingenuous at best.

@OddFinrir.6801 said:

@"shadowpass.4236" said:I have a high winrate solo que. People don't get better because they blame the matchmaker and duo que for their losses rather than their skill.

You do realize, you guys only think duos are unfair, are when two

good

players duo... right? Two bad players duoing aren't an issue. Why? Because duo quing isn't the problem. The lack of skill on your end is the reason you're losing.

If your winrate all of a sudden tanked to 10% because duo ques are dominating and solo players don't have a chance. Then yes, maybe there's something there that needs fixing. But if good duos have high winrates because they're good, and everyone else has a winrate around 50%, that means the matchmaker is

working

.

Also, the "effortless" wins are only when the other team gives up. You fail to acknowledge the fact that the whatever competitive players are left in this game also understand mechanics and rotations far better than the majority of the population. You also fail to acknowledge the other bad players on their team that they have to work extremely hard to carry (sometimes this is impossible and even though you win a 2v4 your team wipes and loses the other two nodes).

How do you know they are on voice? A lot of the top duos are just good players. They don't need the comms for ranked.

Mm let me ask you this. How many rounds on average do you think the daily AT winners get on VC?

I'm not arguing that duo ques aren't advantageous. But they aren't unfair. Everyone can duo. It's the skill level that people are complaining about.

@"shadowpass.4236" said:I have a high winrate solo que. People don't get better because they blame the matchmaker and duo que for their losses rather than their skill.

You do realize, you guys only think duos are unfair, are when two good players duo... right? Two bad players duoing aren't an issue. Why? Because duo quing isn't the problem. The lack of skill on your end is the reason you're losing.

If your winrate all of a sudden tanked to 10% because duo ques are dominating and solo players don't have a chance. Then yes, maybe there's something there that needs fixing. But if good duos have high winrates because they're good, and everyone else has a winrate around 50%, that means the matchmaker is working.

Also, the "effortless" wins are only when the other team gives up. You fail to acknowledge the fact that the whatever competitive players are left in this game also understand mechanics and rotations far better than the majority of the population. You also fail to acknowledge the other bad players on their team that they have to work extremely hard to carry (sometimes this is impossible and even though you win a 2v4 your team wipes and loses the other two nodes).

I find it amusing that you keep mentioning your imaginary high win rate and high skill level when I cant even find you on the leaderboards, you also claimed to be a top tier multi classer, yet ive only seen you play single button sick em ranger and nothing else. You seem to be delusional, and since you defend duo Q so much and still no where near top 10 or even top 50 just proves how delusional you are and not as good as you claim.

plat 3 solo Q necro on my main account and Alt account B)

IMAGINE complaining and thinking DUO que is the issue LMAOOOOOOOOOO. Fyi Being Duo with someone means it's a lot harder to carry said game but hey everyone wants to make an excuses as to why they suck at this game.

Duo Qing is borderline match manipulation? Weird cuz not so long ago everybody was crying to bring them back. & you want to get rid of it after you got it? hahah you all sheeps.

Tip of the ice bergDont get rid of duo queue : https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1007570#Comment_1007570Bring Back 5 Man Ranked Que - Needs To Happen At This Point - Solo/Duo Failed: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/424855#Comment_424855Roll back duo q in high ranked again: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/670323#Comment_670323PVP Solo/Duo System: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/955590#Comment_955590I want DuoQ back : https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/575451#Comment_575451Why do you vote against duoq in plat 2 as silver player? : https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/617073#Comment_617073The experiment has failed. Bring back DuoQ. : https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/642040#Comment_642040

The issue with duo que is it promotes wintrading and a fake leader board full of mama's basement trolls.

Duo was put in place after anet asked a few players about it (not the majority). They also said it was a "temporary " system to try with duo only. Then the temporarily part became permanent and thus the wintrade wars began.

We never got a chance after season 5/6 to say how horrible it was. They just listened to the wintrading streamers who claim to be "top" lol.

Just buy flashy items with your cash like a good stupid customer. No need to improve pvp at all.

@"Ziggityzog.7389" said:The issue with duo que is it promotes wintrading and a fake leader board full of mama's basement trolls.

Duo was put in place after anet asked a few players about it (not the majority). They also said it was a "temporary " system to try with duo only. Then the temporarily part became permanent and thus the wintrade wars began.

We never got a chance after season 5/6 to say how horrible it was. They just listened to the win trading streamers who claim to be "top" lol.

Just buy flashy items with your cash like a good stupid customer. No need to improve pvp at all.

what are you talking about? Solo Q promoted one of the highest bs win trading season i ever seen in my life..... Remember when that EU warrior Transfer over to Na during "Solo" Q and he somehow ended going 100 wins-20 loses ? Yea he solo q sync with 4 other people and win traded HARD to get Rank 1. Once Duo Q was added half the win trading bs that was happening has died down a good amount.

Anyone in the forums who truly believes Duo Q is an issue are some of the lowest rated players in the game that have 0 understanding how everything works and aren't well acknowledged with the history of the game and how it goes. Anyone that's Actually in P2 and able to play the game fairly well understands the struggle of Solo Q and how horrible it is to even get into p3 as a solo q player let alone legend.

@Hex.8714 said:

@"shadowpass.4236" said:I have a high winrate solo que. People don't get better because they blame the matchmaker and duo que for their losses rather than their skill.

You do realize, you guys only think duos are unfair, are when two

good

players duo... right? Two bad players duoing aren't an issue. Why? Because duo quing isn't the problem. The lack of skill on your end is the reason you're losing.

If your winrate all of a sudden tanked to 10% because duo ques are dominating and solo players don't have a chance. Then yes, maybe there's something there that needs fixing. But if good duos have high winrates because they're good, and everyone else has a winrate around 50%, that means the matchmaker is

working

.

Also, the "effortless" wins are only when the other team gives up. You fail to acknowledge the fact that the whatever competitive players are left in this game also understand mechanics and rotations far better than the majority of the population. You also fail to acknowledge the other bad players on their team that they have to work extremely hard to carry (sometimes this is impossible and even though you win a 2v4 your team wipes and loses the other two nodes).

My computer lit on fire earlier this past season right after I finished my placements. That's why I wasn't on the leaderboards s17.

Here's a few screenshots though since you think I'm making this stuff up lol. And, if you dig through Naru's twitch vods from these past few weeks, you'll probably find me a few times doing daily ATs with him.

1. https://imgur.com/a/HXmRGKS <- Season Eleven was solo que only btw !!! :0
2. https://imgur.com/ey2btNs <- Season Seventeen placements
3. https://imgur.com/a/cuJ35qL <- 60% winrate on ranger (keep in mind, that number takes into account EVERY game I've played on this class since release, including unranked memes and custom lobbies with randoms on my team that I have to carry)
4. <- Here's a timestamp for a match with a lot of outnumbered fights (1v2-1v4) from my old vod footage! Wow!

Btw, I never played Sic Em ranger. It was a very gimmicky build that only bad players died to. Also, who even are you? lmao @ random person calling me delusional xd

@zoopop.5630 said:

@"Ziggityzog.7389" said:The issue with duo que is it promotes wintrading and a fake leader board full of mama's basement trolls.

Duo was put in place after anet asked a few players about it (not the majority). They also said it was a "temporary " system to try with duo only. Then the temporarily part became permanent and thus the wintrade wars began.

We never got a chance after season 5/6 to say how horrible it was. They just listened to the win trading streamers who claim to be "top" lol.

Just buy flashy items with your cash like a good stupid customer. No need to improve pvp at all.

I never said solo was better.. lol teams is the only way to remove wintraders even with solo you have basement dwellers clicking join at the same time with some alts some not.

Lol bro last seasons winner went like 113 - 16 then this previous season went 191-95 hahahaha ?. The winner of this previous season that ended was at 117-12 at the end.

Kiddo either get out of bias land or dont bother typing.

@shadowpass.4236 said:I'm not arguing that duo ques aren't advantageous. But they aren't unfair. Everyone can duo. It's the skill level that people are complaining about.

They're unfair because while everyone has the option to DuoQ, only a select handful of top players have the luxury of DuoQing with someone at the very highest skill level you can reach in this game outside of ATs. The population is so low, that when you put two of the very highest% of it onto one team, and then mix that queue with uncoordinated SoloQ players, the odds of it ever being mirrored by the other team are astronomically low.

Combine that with a matchmaker that values getting into a game as quickly as possible, over getting in a game that's got everyone in a fairly accurate range of rating of one and other, and you've got an actual recipe for disaster.

And that's not even to mention all the ways it's abused by the top% that are objectively unfair. There are ways for a legendary DuoQ to snipe lower-ranked players, and to manipulate enemy team compositions through class switching and DuoQing with alts. I don't think any of that was intended, and it's definitely not fair to the low-mid ranked SoloQ players who can't do anything about it.

It goes far beyond them just outskilling the competition. I don't want to feed their egos, but they can't really help being better, or being at the very highest skill level possible. The problem stems moreso from their competition and their teammates being leagues below their own, which is a symptom of terrible match quality, and in that case; DuoQ or Merged queues are responsible in contributing towards those poor-quality matches. If Solo and DuoQ/TeamQ were split from one and other, meaning existing separately; most of these issues that raise the question of whether or not DuoQ is fair would cease to exist.

My computer lit on fire earlier this past season right after I finished my placements. That's why I wasn't on the leaderboards s17.

also I hope you're okay

@Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

@"shadowpass.4236" said:I'm not arguing that duo ques aren't advantageous. But they aren't unfair. Everyone can duo. It's the skill level that people are complaining about.

My computer lit on fire earlier this past season right after I finished my placements. That's why I wasn't on the leaderboards s17.

lol if you're cool and friendly, a lot of the good players wouldn't mind quing with you even if you aren't as skilled as them

I que with low-plat/mid-gold players all the time. I also que frequently with someone that normally has 200-300 ping. Do I care? Not really. My winrate is still high and I help them win games and we all have fun.

Seriously dude, most of the top players are 20-ish years old and hop on GW2 every once and a while to get their minimum games in for the leaderboards. It's not some crazy wintrading scheme like so many of you believe. The handful (I'm talking 2-3 players here) that actually care enough about their rating to put in some effort, que dodge other good players at off-hours. Honestly, that's the extent of the so-called "match manipulation." But, what would Anet do? Restrict que times? lol

Also I appreciate the concern. My motherboard sparked and my pc went up in smoke. Had to air the place out, clean all the scorch marks, and replace whatever parts got damaged in the process. Asides from whatever electrical, metallic black smoke I breathed in, I'm doing okay!

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@OddFinrir.6801 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:I have a high winrate solo que. People don't get better because they blame the matchmaker and duo que for their losses rather than their skill.

You do realize, you guys only think duos are unfair, are when two

good

players duo... right? Two bad players duoing aren't an issue. Why? Because duo quing isn't the problem. The lack of skill on your end is the reason you're losing.

If your winrate all of a sudden tanked to 10% because duo ques are dominating and solo players don't have a chance. Then yes, maybe there's something there that needs fixing. But if good duos have high winrates because they're good, and everyone else has a winrate around 50%, that means the matchmaker is

working

.

Also, the "effortless" wins are only when the other team gives up. You fail to acknowledge the fact that the whatever competitive players are left in this game also understand mechanics and rotations far better than the majority of the population. You also fail to acknowledge the other bad players on their team that they have to work extremely hard to carry (sometimes this is impossible and even though you win a 2v4 your team wipes and loses the other two nodes).

You're presenting a straw man argument.

@"shadowpass.4236" said:Seriously dude, most of the top players are 20-ish years old and hop on GW2 every once and a while to get their minimum games in for the leaderboards. It's not some crazy wintrading scheme like so many of you believe. The handful (I'm talking 2-3 players here) that actually care enough about their rating to put in some effort, que dodge other good players at off-hours. Honestly, that's the extent of the so-called "match manipulation." But, what would Anet do? Restrict que times? lol

Put them against other teams when they queue in teams. Leave Solo as a separate queue when people aren't able to do that. Bam, problem solved.

I can't really get into the mentality part of it without sounding like i'm getting personal and that's a big nono. I only go by what I see in game, on twitch, on the forums and what I see doesn't really appeal to me personally to want to queue with them.

I suppose I wouldn't call it match-manipulation exactly, even though i've been witness to someone trading Black Lion Keys to throw ranked games live on Twitch. I can't imagine how hard it is to escape that reputation once you're there; either fairly or unfairly, but I can say it doesn't do that reputation any good to be exploiting DuoQ in the ways it gets exploited. It's hard to sympathize when they threaten to quit when their ability to do so is restricted too, because that fun they had taken away had been at the expense of others, but at the same time; I feel them. The game shouldn't stop them from playing a team-based game with teams after all.

I think a split queue would do wonders, by not only letting them keep the option to queue competitively together, but by removing a lot of that bad rep as well. Whereas a vote to keep the queues Merged or SoloQ-only seems like a vote for the total opposite. If either side gets actively catered to, or burned; it's just a load of the same egotistical nonsense that brought with it that bad reputations and all that negativity in the first place.

@"shadowpass.4236" said:Also, the "effortless" wins are only when the other team gives up. You fail to acknowledge the fact that the whatever competitive players are left in this game also understand mechanics and rotations far better than the majority of the population. You also fail to acknowledge the other bad players on their team that they have to work extremely hard to carry (sometimes this is impossible and even though you win a 2v4 your team wipes and loses the other two nodes).

Not giving up can honestly make a huge difference. I've won games I thought was hopeless (including one that was close to three hundred points down, and one where we kept the enemy team stuck on 499 for about half a minute) and in my experience winning the first engagement is often a very poor predictor of who'll win the game: often enough, the loser of the first engagement is able to identify how they need to shift tactics and is able to go on to win the match while the initial winner gets overconfident. Conversely, though, I've seen so many people just give up as soon as they're a hundred points down, or even as soon as they lose the first engagement. Which, naturally, becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Ranked 1v1s, 2v2s, 3v3s, 4v4s, and ATs should be for 5v5s. Done. EZ

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@"shadowpass.4236" said:Also, the "effortless" wins are only when the other team gives up. You fail to acknowledge the fact that the whatever competitive players are left in this game also understand mechanics and rotations far better than the majority of the population. You also fail to acknowledge the other bad players on their team that they have to work extremely hard to carry (sometimes this is impossible and even though you win a 2v4 your team wipes and loses the other two nodes).

Yeah I just tell my team to stop talking and focus when they start arguing. It works 95% of the time.

I don't really have an issue with facing duos while solo-q'ing, however wouldn't the simpler solution be just to adjust the algorithm to function like it does with class-stacking ensuring there's always a complimentary duo on the other team?

It might increase q times if you duo, but atleast judging by your arguments, it would lead to fairer matches.

When I duo Q I get 3 idiots on my team so what am I doing wrong? It seems to punish you for qing from what I have seen.

@"xiGenocidex.2853" said:When I duo Q I get 3 idiots on my team so what am I doing wrong? It seems to punish you for qing from what I have seen.

Your doing it wrong. Be like the "top" ( lol hahaha) players and play at like 12am or so when it's mostly just bots playing.

Easy ride to the top if you are willing to be a basement troll.