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Why holo damage hasn't been nerfed yet?

And why they need a knockback, knockdown, invuln, stealth, constant regen, condi to boon conversion, constant quickness, constant barrier, and attacks that don't require los?

On top of this we have multiple instant cast high damaging abilities, high mobility, a shield that blocks attacks, and passive traits that reward you for spamming buttons via damage and granting quickness?

The damage is out of control, the cc is out of control, the constant 5 or more boons with no effort is out of control.

Please fix this class to be inline with all of the others. Or at least buff the other classes. It's obvious you have it out for mirage and people's chosen class to complain about is the one that gets all of the balance tweaks, but it's gone on long enough.

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@DonArkanio.6419 said:ANet wants skills to do 125 things at one click, clearly. That's why everything is such a vomit.

Wait for the people who will come here and say:BuT iT's A l2P iSsUe. HoLo Is BaLaNcEd.

Somthing somthing holo isn't OP it's just the best performing spec atm. It's not unbeatable because it has counterplay and unfavorable matchups. Plus it's not condi and that makes it inherently more fun to fight.

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IMO they should shave off some of the utility value of Photon Forge.Holographic Shockwave is a prime example of a skill that should respect the Z-axis but somehow this skill is the best skill in the game when it comes to climbing stairs or other elevations. You should be able to jump over this thing, or reflect it back at the holosmith(it's made of light, light can be reflected).There's also no reason why this skill should have a 100% crit chance.Corona Burst does too much damage, the base damage should be cut by atleast 20%. Same goes for Holo Leap.

Issues that are outside of Forge, Heat Therapy needs to be deleted. Holo gains easy re-sustain from comboing into Healing Turret and from Compounding Chemicals anyway, it doesn't need any added sustain. Work out something else to replace it. Like Exceed-skills reducing Heat or something.

I wouldn't touch any of the core engineer stuff you mention here like Elixirs, Healing Turret or Alchemy. Problems are in the Holo gimmicks, otherwise Core engis would be overtuned as well, and I'm pretty sure they aren't.

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Why forge is spammable : Vent exhaust and insane 20-30s vigor at any moment of time allows them to spam evades even without need actually to evade anything and get rewarded for it = heat drop, heals for 786 hp , allows to spam forge nearly always and nullify the only "drawback" it ever had and can be managed easly without ever overheating.Every skill does tons of damage, cooldown on every skill is super low: holo leap 2s cd, corona burst hit TWICE on 6s cd, 10s on 4rd skill,15s on super balanced aoe knockdown. Autoattacks cant be ignored either. Everything they do worth your dodge, too bad you have only two.YIKESBoon spam: Look at their utility skill https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elixir_B and their minor passive alchemy trait https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lesser_Elixir_B , 10 seconds less cooldown on the passive one but 2s less in duration (omegalul) as passive autoproc. Just think about it 4 boons on 24s cd as AUTOPOC without your need to use it just because you took some damage...Now this being boosted even further by elixir trait - it gives all boons for 14s and extra 2 mights(now its 7) and this only on 24s cd. Its okay to have such trait but not on such laughable low cd. The first what comes to my mind is mesmer chaos minor trait 10s regeneration on 15s cd, not even close right ? Imo cooldown of that thing must be around 60-80s cd or completely replaced.Prismatic conversion - insane good condi clear that convert conditions into boons with low cd on the forge and because you have vent exhaust you can safely abuse it without overheating . Could be a simple condi cleanse instead of conversion. Pretty often you can see them running around with tons of boons and 20+ might stacks.There is also condi conversion trait but its on 60s cd (48 traited) and I'm fine with it.Kinetic Battery - 5s base quickness, 7 with meta build. Exit/enter forge count as 1 stack and photon wall toobelt has only 7s cd,pretty spammable, add to it 5s cd enter and exit forge and you have 7s quickness back to back. Trait itself is fine imo but forge shouldnt count towards it, even if they disable, they still have evade-spam trait that boost forge spam even more hence why vent exhaust need to be looked at asap.Sustain - evade spam to drop the heat heals them for 786 hp or so. Cba to do the math, someone did long ago but lazy to find, when heat goes away naturally you have 5/10 stacks of heat therapy, 1 stack is 65 which means on 5 stacks you have 325 and on 10 - 650 hps. - Gives holo tons of sustain.Not from my post, someone else did:

Heat therapy is a bigger offender than turret. Going from 90 -> 20 is a 4.5k heal and depending on how often you use your dodge you can go from 90 to 20 and back into forge in 10-15 seconds. It encourages people to spam forge and forge skills as fast as they can. The faster and more often you spam your skills, the quicker and more you heal. This isn't even a major trait - its a master minor that is easily as strong as a grandmaster.Turret blasting isnt news and how much health you get back, we know it,we love it, nothing to add.Pretty annoying things : 2 separate reveals on their own cooldowns (trait) in tools - on CC and on hiting someone in stealth (thanks to this le balanced dodge trait that drop heat ,you can evade and "accidently" reveal stealthed ppl).Stealth elixir on toolbelt completley outclasses any group stealth utilities on 32s cd for 6s (even then its worse only than two ELITE skills of scrapper sneak gyro and mesmer mass invis).Photon wall - "defensive" block that allows you to do w/e and over 50% heat can launch it for 9-12k damage (melee but not hard when they have various CC's)...defensive skill, for a moment.Invigorating speed trait - Still gives engineers 25 energy on use of elixir U, bugged fo years, I assume they cant fix it because potato coders.Takedown round - I had seen a lot of crits for 4.2k on me (privilege of playing paper class), cant even see it on the ground, hail passive autoprocs.TLDR Fixes that it needs : eviscerate vent exhaust by 50% (remove ~8% heat), gut all vigor traits, give proper icd on "hidden flask", cut Heat Therapy by half, stealth elixir 2s instead of 5s.

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@Tycura.1982 said:

@DonArkanio.6419 said:ANet wants skills to do 125 things at one click, clearly. That's why everything is such a vomit.

Wait for the people who will come here and say:
BuT iT's A l2P iSsUe. HoLo Is BaLaNcEd.

Somthing somthing holo isn't OP it's just the best performing spec atm. It's not unbeatable because it has counterplay and unfavorable matchups. Plus it's not condi and that makes it inherently more fun to fight.

Ah, I guess I just forgot to have fun playing against Holos.

Holos' best performance depends on the overloaded kit.

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@"praqtos.9035" said:Why forge is spammable : Vent exhaust and insane 20-30s vigor at any moment of time allows them to spam evades even without need actually to evade anything and get rewarded for it = heat drop, heals for 786 hp , allows to spam forge nearly always and nullify the only "drawback" it ever had and can be managed easly without ever overheating.Every skill does tons of damage, cooldown on every skill is super low: holo leap 2s cd, corona burst hit TWICE on 6s cd, 10s on 4rd skill,15s on super balanced aoe knockdown. Autoattacks cant be ignored either. Everything they do worth your dodge, too bad you have only two.YIKESBoon spam: Look at their utility skill https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elixir_B and their minor passive alchemy trait https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lesser_Elixir_B , 10 seconds less cooldown on the passive one but 2s less in duration (omegalul) as passive autoproc. Just think about it 4 boons on 24s cd as AUTOPOC without your need to use it just because you took some damage...Now this being boosted even further by elixir trait - it gives all boons for 14s and extra 2 mights(now its 7) and this only on 24s cd. Its okay to have such trait but not on such laughable low cd. The first what comes to my mind is mesmer chaos minor trait 10s regeneration on 15s cd, not even close right ? Imo cooldown of that thing must be around 60-80s cd or completely replaced.Prismatic conversion - insane good condi clear that convert conditions into boons with low cd on the forge and because you have vent exhaust you can safely abuse it without overheating . Could be a simple condi cleanse instead of conversion. Pretty often you can see them running around with tons of boons and 20+ might stacks.There is also condi conversion trait but its on 60s cd (48 traited) and I'm fine with it.Kinetic Battery - 5s base quickness, 7 with meta build. Exit/enter forge count as 1 stack and photon wall toobelt has only 7s cd,pretty spammable, add to it 5s cd enter and exit forge and you have 7s quickness back to back. Trait itself is fine imo but forge shouldnt count towards it, even if they disable, they still have evade-spam trait that boost forge spam even more hence why vent exhaust need to be looked at asap.Sustain - evade spam to drop the heat heals them for 860hp or so. Cba to do the math, someone did long ago but lazy to find, when heat goes away naturally you have 5/10 stacks of heat therapy, 1 stack is 65 which means on 5 stacks you have 325 and on 10 - 650 hps. - Gives holo tons of sustain.Turret blasting isnt news and how much health you get back, we know it,we love it, nothing to add.Pretty annoying things : 2 separate reveals on their own cooldowns (trait) in tools - on CC and on hiting someone in stealth (thanks to this le balanced dodge trait that drop heat ,you can evade and "accidently" reveal stealthed ppl).Stealth elixir on toolbelt completley outclasses any group stealth utilities on 32s cd for 6s (even then its worse only than two ELITE skills of scrapper sneak gyro and mesmer mass invis).Photon wall - "defensive" block that allows you to do w/e and over 50% heat can launch it for 9-12k damage (melee but not hard when they have various CC's)...defensive skill, for a moment.Invigorating speed trait - Still gives engineers 25 energy on use of elixir U, bugged fo years, I assume they cant fix it because potato coders.Takedown round - I had seen a lot of crits for 4.2k on me (privilege of playing paper class), cant even see it on the ground, hail passive autoprocs.TLDR Fixes that it needs : eviscerate vent exhaust by 50% (remove ~8% heat), gut all vigor traits, give proper icd on "hidden flask", cut Heat Therapy by half, stealth elixir 2s instead of 5s.

(privilege of playing paper class) - complains about side noders outfitted to be duelists .. but since what appears to be yet another mesmer main most likely salty about CI being disabled or thief in which case has no business attempting to even fight side noders. ill go with mesmer main. amazing how you can just tell who a class is by their complaints, because they main it and don't multi-class. problem #1 for bad players.

Fixes that it needs : eviscerate vent exhaust by 50% (remove ~8% heat), gut all vigor traits, give proper icd on "hidden flask", cut Heat Therapy by half, stealth elixir 2s instead of 5s. - so basically make spellbreaker / weaver more meta because that would kill holosmith not to mention other builds as well... this would only narrow the side noder gap even further since CI was disabled and soulbeast pretty much was taken out of it's role as well ... let's not forget that holo does need shaves but those adjustments you might as well just delete the elite spec. those changes don't improve pvp , just makes it a little less annoying because yet another class is not going to be used at all which means your next responses will be in threads like these:

"Why is weaver so broken?""Why is spellbreaker so overtuned?"

ok thanks for your input

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I’d like to point out that “nerfing x would make y and z better than x, so we shouldn’t nerf x” is a logical fallacy.

Other things need balancing too. Doesn’t mean people can’t suggest changes to singular professions/traits they believe are performing in an unbalanced way.

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@"cptaylor.2670" said:Why holo damage hasn't been nerfed yet?

And why they need a knockback, knockdown, invuln, stealth, constant regen, condi to boon conversion, constant quickness, constant barrier, and attacks that don't require los?

On top of this we have multiple instant cast high damaging abilities, high mobility, a shield that blocks attacks, and passive traits that reward you for spamming buttons via damage and granting quickness?

The damage is out of control, the cc is out of control, the constant 5 or more boons with no effort is out of control.

Please fix this class to be inline with all of the others. Or at least buff the other classes. It's obvious you have it out for mirage and people's chosen class to complain about is the one that gets all of the balance tweaks, but it's gone on long enough.

You cant have everything you listed, because Utility skills are limited to 3. So pick the most op 3 ones and cry at these.

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@saerni.2584 said:I’d like to point out that “nerfing x would make y and z better than x, so we shouldn’t nerf x” is a logical fallacy.

Other things need balancing too. Doesn’t mean people can’t suggest changes to singular professions/traits they believe are performing in an unbalanced way.

That's why shaving exists though, if you just gut 50% off skills and gut entire defensive mechanics , you render a class useless... Where does balancing other classes fit into that... That's why I said it doesn't benefit anything except make 2 side noders even more meta than they already are. I mean if your solution is to make holosmith not usable then what, nerf spellbreaker and weaver so side noding roles don't exist? I mean you can do that too, like you're obviously suggesting... But then you turn pvp into a 2 role schematic consisting of roamers and group fights - then people will complain about overtuned group fighters. Then you'll nerf those overtuned group fighters, then people will complain about roaming is a problem so nerf thief mobility, then you'll nerf thief mobility .. I think you understand where I'm going with this.

Just flat nerfing every single thing into non-existence doesnt make PvP healthy , and it doesn't bring back players.

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@Greyjoy.5167 said:

@"cptaylor.2670" said:Why holo damage hasn't been nerfed yet?

And why they need a knockback, knockdown, invuln, stealth, constant regen, condi to boon conversion, constant quickness, constant barrier, and attacks that don't require los?

On top of this we have multiple instant cast high damaging abilities, high mobility, a shield that blocks attacks, and passive traits that reward you for spamming buttons via damage and granting quickness?

The damage is out of control, the cc is out of control, the constant 5 or more boons with no effort is out of control.

Please fix this class to be inline with all of the others. Or at least buff the other classes. It's obvious you have it out for mirage and people's chosen class to complain about is the one that gets all of the balance tweaks, but it's gone on long enough.

You cant have everything you listed, because Utility skills are limited to 3. So pick the most op 3 ones and cry at these.

Hey now. Clearly meta holos have 5 trait lines, 6 utility skills, and 2 heal skills.

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@Tycura.1982 said:

@DonArkanio.6419 said:ANet wants skills to do 125 things at one click, clearly. That's why everything is such a vomit.

Wait for the people who will come here and say:
BuT iT's A l2P iSsUe. HoLo Is BaLaNcEd.

Somthing somthing holo isn't OP it's just the best performing spec atm. It's not unbeatable because it has counterplay and unfavorable matchups. Plus it's not condi and that makes it inherently more fun to fight.

In addition to add it has a ridiculous amount of CC (including 2 AOE CC, possibly 3, and unblockable AOE CC). It is strong against power builds. Strong against, the only 1 condi build left. It is great mid, and one of the best side noders. It has strong sustain and strong damage. Good mobility. Is it ridiculously over powered as some builds were in the past? No. But it definitely is the most OPed build is balance currently stands.

Also, I much rather fight condi spam than chain CCs any day.

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@ZhouX.8742 said:

@saerni.2584 said:I’d like to point out that “nerfing x would make y and z better than x, so we shouldn’t nerf x” is a logical fallacy.

Other things need balancing too. Doesn’t mean people can’t suggest changes to singular professions/traits they believe are performing in an unbalanced way.

That's why shaving exists though, if you just gut 50% off skills and gut entire defensive mechanics , you render a class useless... Where does balancing other classes fit into that... That's why I said it doesn't benefit anything except make 2 side noders even more meta than they already are. I mean if your solution is to make holosmith not usable then what, nerf spellbreaker and weaver so side noding roles don't exist? I mean you can do that too, like you're obviously suggesting... But then you turn pvp into a 2 role schematic consisting of roamers and group fights - then people will complain about overtuned group fighters. Then you'll nerf those overtuned group fighters, then people will complain about roaming is a problem so nerf thief mobility, then you'll nerf thief mobility .. I think you understand where I'm going with this.

Just flat nerfing every single thing into non-existence doesnt make PvP healthy , and it doesn't bring back players.

Righteous instinct: reduced effectiveness by 50%Mighty blow & true shot: increased cooldown by 50%Glacial hammer: reduced damage by 90%Smiters boon: reduced damage by 40%

Want me to keep going? These are all changes made to a class that was never even close to the level Holo is currently.

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@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@saerni.2584 said:I’d like to point out that “nerfing x would make y and z better than x, so we shouldn’t nerf x” is a logical fallacy.

Other things need balancing too. Doesn’t mean people can’t suggest changes to singular professions/traits they believe are performing in an unbalanced way.

That's why shaving exists though, if you just gut 50% off skills and gut entire defensive mechanics , you render a class useless... Where does balancing other classes fit into that... That's why I said it doesn't benefit anything except make 2 side noders even more meta than they already are. I mean if your solution is to make holosmith not usable then what, nerf spellbreaker and weaver so side noding roles don't exist? I mean you can do that too, like you're obviously suggesting... But then you turn pvp into a 2 role schematic consisting of roamers and group fights - then people will complain about overtuned group fighters. Then you'll nerf those overtuned group fighters, then people will complain about roaming is a problem so nerf thief mobility, then you'll nerf thief mobility .. I think you understand where I'm going with this.

Just flat nerfing every single thing into non-existence doesnt make PvP healthy , and it doesn't bring back players.

Righteous instinct: reduced effectiveness by 50%Mighty blow & true shot: increased cooldown by 50%Glacial hammer: reduced damage by 90%Smiters boon: reduced damage by 40%

Want me to keep going? These are all changes made to a class that was never even close to the level Holo is currently.

Right, but where did I ever defend big nerfs? I'm actually saying shave classes effectively not gut entire specs out of existence which is literally the opposite of what you just posted

Learn to read please

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@Greyjoy.5167 said:

@"cptaylor.2670" said:Why holo damage hasn't been nerfed yet?

And why they need a knockback, knockdown, invuln, stealth, constant regen, condi to boon conversion, constant quickness, constant barrier, and attacks that don't require los?

On top of this we have multiple instant cast high damaging abilities, high mobility, a shield that blocks attacks, and passive traits that reward you for spamming buttons via damage and granting quickness?

The damage is out of control, the cc is out of control, the constant 5 or more boons with no effort is out of control.

Please fix this class to be inline with all of the others. Or at least buff the other classes. It's obvious you have it out for mirage and people's chosen class to complain about is the one that gets all of the balance tweaks, but it's gone on long enough.

You cant have everything you listed, because Utility skills are limited to 3. So pick the most op 3 ones and cry at these.

The standard meta build has literally every one of these things. With the exception of the passive invuln, but that's why you have the elixir, which is also tied to stealth...

I mean literally every one of these things listed.

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There are actually so many Holos now. 3-4 not uncommon, even 5-6 occasionally. All that CC and damage flying around in team fights is making this even worse than Mirage stacking(at least u can aoe clones).

Class is way too spammy. I understand that Engi has to have lower cooldowns than others because lack of weapon swapping, but this is way overkill. Like others have said, every forge skill has relatively low cooldowns and is loaded to the point where you need to dodge/blind/block/otherwise attempt to mitigate it. That in itself is not bad if the cooldown of forge itself was high or required some sort of buildup like reaper shroud, but that just isn't the case. Either reduce the spam or reduce the power of the spam. There have been really good suggestions that address this w/o hurting core/scrapper.

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@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:I remember killing an afk holo in ffa arena and at 5% health he had 18 might stacks... just from passive elixir stuff from the HGH trait, probs had things like regen swiftness and prot, but I was more annoyed at someone getting g 18 stacks for basically dying afk.

Lol, and Holo is heavily based around quickness access meaning you can expect someone who isn’t afk to hit you super hard and super fast.

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@saerni.2584 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:I remember killing an afk holo in ffa arena and at 5% health he had 18 might stacks... just from passive elixir stuff from the HGH trait, probs had things like regen swiftness and prot, but I was more annoyed at someone getting g 18 stacks for basically dying afk.

Lol, and Holo is heavily based around quickness access meaning you can expect someone who isn’t afk to hit you super hard and super fast.

I mean don't get me wrong, this could of been a core engie or scrapper but neither of them 2 are anywhere close to the carnage holo does.

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@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:I remember killing an afk holo in ffa arena and at 5% health he had 18 might stacks... just from passive elixir stuff from the HGH trait, probs had things like regen swiftness and prot, but I was more annoyed at someone getting g 18 stacks for basically dying afk.

Lol, and Holo is heavily based around quickness access meaning you can expect someone who isn’t afk to hit you super hard and super fast.

I mean don't get me wrong, this could of been a core engie or scrapper but neither of them 2 are anywhere close to the carnage holo does.Holo has forge with tons of damage. Holo traitline itself has everything : Sustain, condi conversion in boons, stability,damage boost, means to prevent the only possible drawback - overheat.Excuse me, if something stupid is on core level, it should be left alone because "core isnt that broken" ?
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@praqtos.9035 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:I remember killing an afk holo in ffa arena and at 5% health he had 18 might stacks... just from passive elixir stuff from the HGH trait, probs had things like regen swiftness and prot, but I was more annoyed at someone getting g 18 stacks for basically dying afk.

Lol, and Holo is heavily based around quickness access meaning you can expect someone who isn’t afk to hit you super hard and super fast.

I mean don't get me wrong, this could of been a core engie or scrapper but neither of them 2 are anywhere close to the carnage holo does.Holo has forge with tons of damage. Holo traitline itself has everything : Sustain, condi conversion in boons, stability,damage boost, means to prevent the only possible drawback - overheat.Excuse me, if something stupid is on core level, it should be left alone because "core isnt that broken" ?

I never said that at all, I just didn't want to blame, or point fingers at alchemy... HGH for a lot of holos over performing factor.

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