Do you think the PVP has way too steep learning curve and it is dropping population cause of it ?

I was scrolling trough the GW 2 reddit and saw these threads https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/ctuyjp/this_game_has_real_gameplay_issues_for_pvp/https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/ctt8uf/how_to_evaluate_my_spvp_skill_level/ .When you think about it many people probably tried pvp and got rolled by someone who played it for far longer time and never tried again. I think they tried to simplify with the POF elites but in the end it ended up doing the opposite since the older players know how to abuse the specks to their limits and everything is supper charged and hard to follow. I've noticed that a lot of people are oblivious what their build is good for and what other people builds do and just run around to the battles and spam abilities .The game is missing the in between modes for learning and it is hard to learn everything on the go (don't pull the it has videos bullshit, people are not here to watch manuals how to drive a train). The hook is missing and no amount of armor and weapon skins will pull people into pvp.Some people say that conquest is the best and most skillful mode, might be but doesn't mean it is fun or easy to play and it can't be denied it has gotten way to stale after so many years.Last year when 2v2 came i was hoping there would be a queue for it for something lower scale help people easy in to the fast paced pvp .Also the FFA arena is cool and all but it is too small for duels, which is one of these no reward fun things people enjoy doing in MMOs.Do you have any ideas how to grow the mode?

No cause when you start pvp for the first time you get matched with other new players in unranked.

Making builds stronger/easier to play for new players > good players abuse meta builds > bad players have an even harder time > repeat

That's what happens when you power creep balance around casuals ¯\(ツ)/¯

I definitely think the learning curve is insanely steep. The game asks a lot from you as a player to "get good" at it. From what I've observed, a lot of people come in looking for some casual fun that they don't really have to work at, and well.. that whole scenario doesn't end well at all. I've tried helping several people and in the end they've just decided that they don't feel like investing the time and practice to get where they wanna go. As for what can be done.. the best route is to just play I think. Play A Lot. Play until you're bitterly sick of the game, and then play some more after that. I don't think any type of tutorial will be as effective. Maybe find someone who will do sustained 1v1s with you for hours. But again.. that's a lot of effort so. I know a few people who would invest their weekend to get better at GW2, but not many : D Thus lies the difficulty in growing the PvP community..

@"Zagerus.8675" said:I definitely think the learning curve is insanely steep. The game asks a lot from you as a player to "get good" at it. From what I've observed, a lot of people come in looking for some casual fun that they don't really have to work at, and well.. that whole scenario doesn't end well at all. I've tried helping several people and in the end they've just decided that they don't feel like investing the time and practice to get where they wanna go. As for what can be done.. the best route is to just play I think. Play A Lot. Play until you're bitterly sick of the game, and then play some more after that. I don't think any type of tutorial will be as effective. Maybe find someone who will do sustained 1v1s with you for hours. But again.. that's a lot of effort so. I know a few people who would invest their weekend to get better at GW2, but not many : D Thus lies the difficulty in growing the PvP community..That why a big area for duels would have been nice, i remember in WoW that the cool pvp dudes were hanging outside Orgrimar dueling, shitalking waiting for the arena to pop, and when you passed around there you just might hang for a while and do some duels, learn something and become one of the cool dudes. Normally they would give you pointers where you failed. I was hoping something like that would happen here with the 2v2 arena since it is simpler mode that is just fun and not that straining, you go in you win or lose in 5 minutes next one, sit around do some duels till the queue pops again.GW 2 just doesn't have that feel and the new pvp area doesn't help much being that disjointed.The Conquest queue is way too volatile it has 10 variables every game and match after match it gets way too frustrating, cause it is constantly pulling to 50% winrate and there is the yo yo effect of getting win streak lose streak, it mostly feels like the more you play the more you lose cause of the low population and playing less is better.

I've tried to bring no less than 7 friends from Discord or PvE into PvP and they never last.

There's no sort of proper tutorial, and that really sucks for people trying to learn, but it's by no means impossible. If you're bringing them in, you can always teach them yourself, but it is slow and arduous and could easily contribute to someone leaving.

Some classes/builds in this game are not fun for new players to fight at all, and this is usually the biggest turnoff. They're usually at an inherent disadvantage too until they buy the expansions which only adds to it. I feel like I can't use any particular examples, because that might attract people seeking yet another heated balance discussion. Bit too many of those if you ask me.

Unranked is also pretty unsustainable. I think the better rewards and competition push people towards queuing Ranked as soon as they're realized, which might be a mistake or a good thing depending on how you look at it. Outside dailies, learning the game, or messing around with friends; there's not much reason to go on playing Unranked though.

Many of Ranked's fundamentals are awful for anyone coming in at the low gold-high silver level. A lot of the friends I knew came from Overwatch, so the whole 1 step forward, 2 steps back system for rating gain/loss they're all too familiar with, and if you tell them it's based purely on the RNG ratings of everyone in your game; they're likely to quit just hearing that.

There's also high-level DuoQs swapping to low-level alts to snipe these players, and that's when they're not being put in their teams as filler to compensate for the huge disparity in rating to the population. If I; as a ~plat2 player queue with my friend coming into the game, that also seems to make us a pretty ripe target for these predatory high-level DuoQ's, and when that's not happening; the rating of the average SoloQ player seems to be substantially lower which bores me, and if my friend can tell that a long-time player is pretty bored and fed up, they're likely to suggest we just do something else.

My suggestions:

•Having an in-depth conquest tutorial would be nice. I think it would make the most sense for it to be conquest until more gamemodes are added, if even.•Balance for this game is pretty bad, but I can't recommend specific changes without starting riots and transforming your entire post into a discussion purely about balance no matter how unrelated; so for your sake, I won't take it any further than that. That issue in itself might be a problem though.•Pips should be added to unranked with lesser rewards. Pips should also stay in Ranked with the current better rewards, but should only be rewarded in conjunction to effort and winning rather than as a participation award in the competitive mode. People coming over to farm the rewards with no care of competition, ruin the challenge for those trying to get invested imo.•Similarly Ranked's system for rank gain/loss should take personal performance into account as well, rather than being solely RNG.•DuoQ or any sort of competitive option to play with friends should be split from SoloQ to keep the game challenging enough for everyone in a match to take something away, rather than teaching new people they're nothing but filler, or fodder for people of higher ranks, or giving them a false sense of security everytime they're carried by someone abusing it.

no. counter strikes learning curve is way higher but ppl keep on playing. ppl quit gw2 pvp cuz of unfairness, unfun builds, and stale builds/ mode.

Hm, I always considered the "problem" in this the regard to the fact that players want to do 360-no-scope 10-man killstreaks in 10 seconds so they can feel cool, when in fact GW2 sPvP is far more complex on a tactical and strategical level because they need to control an entire map, requiring people to think. And thinking hurts.

@"Dawdler.8521" said:Hm, I always considered the "problem" in this the regard to the fact that players want to do 360-no-scope 10-man killstreaks in 10 seconds so they can feel cool, when in fact GW2 sPvP is far more complex on a tactical and strategical level because they need to control an entire map, requiring people to think. And thinking hurts.Yep it is painful that is way we need some dumb mode to beat each other with our glowy sticks and do the 360 no scopes.

@"Dawdler.8521" said:Hm, I always considered the "problem" in this the regard to the fact that players want to do 360-no-scope 10-man killstreaks in 10 seconds so they can feel cool, when in fact GW2 sPvP is far more complex on a tactical and strategical level because they need to control an entire map, requiring people to think. And thinking hurts.

I disagree with you, the problem is that the first time one does PVP they are overloaded because of all the CC flying and conditions being CCs as well and the fact one who is new is instantly blown up by some cc spamming 100-0 class and maybe they don't get killed in 1 hit, but its fast enough that escaping is a problem. I think what stand the wall says is true about some unfair builds. POF certainly did powercreep and things weren't nearly so bad during hot.

Its kinda unpleasant too to need to possibly look at getting pof just to be sure you can play the game and have a fair shot, even if you don't plan on being competitive and just want to have fun.

Also, i do think this game could use a few more new modes to help spice things up.

Yes on both points.

Maybe, but regardless of the learning curve I blame everything solely on conquest.

The learning curve is steep but a steep curve is not inherently intrusive.

If we were not balancing for 5v5 point holding and rotating, and everyone was building to kill in skirmishes and duels, with that being the focus of the balance from A-net; we’d have a much healthier game, with a healthier population, and a healthier viewership.

@Daishi.6027 said:Maybe, but regardless of the learning curve I blame everything solely on conquest.

The learning curve is steep but a steep curve is not inherently intrusive.

If we were not balancing for 5v5 point holding and rotating, and everyone was building to kill in skirmishes and duels, with that being the focus of the balance from A-net; we’d have a much healthier game, with a healthier population, and a healthier viewership.

Really?

The reason for Conquest, is that it provides a reason to engage and get close in a fight. If there were no capture points, and it was just a team-deathmatch, you really think it would produce healthier play? Or would it produce everyone playing solo perma-stealth gank builds, or live-forever-runaway builds? See WvW roaming for evidence. That's not healthy. It doesn't have to be Conquest, but you need some kind of reason to force people to commit to a fight and not just perma runaway/hide.

@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:no. counter strikes learning curve is way higher but ppl keep on playing. ppl quit gw2 pvp cuz of unfairness, unfun builds, and stale builds/ mode.

Sure the curve to get to the top level is higher, but the minimum requirements for entry are way lower. Anyone with an IQ above 30 can grasp the concept of "point gun, shoot". Anyone who's not been living in a cave for the last 50 years can jump into a shooter and understand the principles of the game within a few minutes and achieve a basic level of competence. Whereas in GW2 conquest it is not at all obvious to a newcomer what an effective build is, or what classes fulfill what role, or even that roles are a thing, or what a rotation is. Unless you go out searching for some guides on youtube, these concepts may never even occur to you, at least not without many many hours of trial and failure.

Definitely, the biggest failure of GW2 PvP is the failure to keep a steady stream of new players coming in. Its not balance, its not maps or game-modes, its not tournaments or rating system, or cheating. It purely comes down to lack of advertising or encouraging new players in, and helping them to get through the difficult first ~100 matches where to them nothing makes any sense.

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@"Daishi.6027" said:Maybe, but regardless of the learning curve I blame everything solely on conquest.

The learning curve is steep but a steep curve is not inherently intrusive.

If we were not balancing for 5v5 point holding and rotating, and everyone was building to kill in skirmishes and duels, with that being the focus of the balance from A-net; we’d have a much healthier game, with a healthier population, and a healthier viewership.

If the map punished "ran away for ever until I take a good fight" type builds it wouldn't be a problem. Simply having a shrinking arena might resolve that.If we were balancing around such a thing Perma stealth gank, and live forever builds would never be allowed to exist.

There are a lot of things we turn a blind eye to that we would be balanced out if this was the focus.

@Daishi.6027 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Daishi.6027 said:Maybe, but regardless of the learning curve I blame everything solely on conquest.

The learning curve is steep but a steep curve is not inherently intrusive.

If we were not balancing for 5v5 point holding and rotating, and everyone was building to kill in skirmishes and duels, with that being the focus of the balance from A-net; we’d have a much healthier game, with a healthier population, and a healthier viewership.

So you've just replaced one mechanic that forces you to fight in a confined space, with another mechanic that forces you to fight in a confined space.

How is one healthier than the other again?

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Daishi.6027 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Daishi.6027 said:Maybe, but regardless of the learning curve I blame everything solely on conquest.

The learning curve is steep but a steep curve is not inherently intrusive.

If we were not balancing for 5v5 point holding and rotating, and everyone was building to kill in skirmishes and duels, with that being the focus of the balance from A-net; we’d have a much healthier game, with a healthier population, and a healthier viewership.

One is about holding, and rotating across a large map with 5v5. The other is about kills, and getting it cleanly with smaller numbers.With the balance forcibly being focused on kills so everyone has a fair crack at it.

the only way I learnt about PvP was because I was fortunate enough to get into it with friends who helped me learn.

thats a privilege newer players will miss out on.

@Ragnar.4257 said:snips

a tutorial would definitely go a long way.

Yea the learning curve is very very steep. I’m pretty new, but I’m also someone who does a lot of pvp in mmos so I stuck through it. Almost all of the friends I came to gw2 with quit. Idk what the solution would be but I wish there were more resources for new pvp players to learn the mechanics of pvp in gw2

It's not the learning curve, it's that the game itself has absolutely garbage tools in it to figure out what exactly happened and how you lost so you can try to avoid making the same mistake next time. Even class and trait design is such a mess it makes it hard for a new player to figure anything out.

I remember the old PvP 'tutorial' when you got into hotm for the first Time...

started pvp just going in with my staff ele pve build.got destroyed, learned, adjusted.learning your skills and what your class can do isnt a too steep learning curve.

Can't expect to enter pvp for first time and destroy people.Maybe when the game just started, but everygame that has been online as long has a big dif between new players and veterans

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Daishi.6027 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Daishi.6027 said:Maybe, but regardless of the learning curve I blame everything solely on conquest.

The learning curve is steep but a steep curve is not inherently intrusive.

If we were not balancing for 5v5 point holding and rotating, and everyone was building to kill in skirmishes and duels, with that being the focus of the balance from A-net; we’d have a much healthier game, with a healthier population, and a healthier viewership.

Because it's his preference. Pretty much as simple as that.

Learning curve? The node mech/game types pretty self explanatory I feel. Combat wise there's practice dummies in the mists, damage logs to instantly shows u how you took or gave damage. Other than a one time entry tutorial I'm not sure what else could be done.

It's like divisions should separate the player base. "Nah lets throw bronzes with the plats and so on" -Anet probably.

Hard to learn tells from other classes when your getting roflstomped on. So yes it is a steep learning curve.