I believe some of the old design concepts from Old AV would be lovely here in WvW

Recently I found this video breaking down what Old AV was, and how it was changed.

One really important factor here is the nerf and removal of NPCs from the experience, turned the map into a total zerg fest, which reminds me of the current state of WvW.

But this really reenforce my belief that having more NPC PvPvE content in WvW would make the game mode a lot more fun to play and creating more smaller objectives would also play a big role in improving WvW to what it was hyped up to be pre release.

Yeah I know WoW is kind of a hated topic around the GW2 community, but this is one aspect most can agree on was epic and way ahead of its time when large scale long duration PvP fights wasnt a thing anymore back then until its resurgence with Warhammer and GW2's WvW.

But WvW could really use some stronger NPC champions and Guard mechanics like in Old AV that prevented just using zerg tactics to take structures.

Also the introduction of more smaller scale objectives that could spawn powerful NPC units would really add more flavor to roamers as well as lesser skilled group fighters and give them a way to contribute to the fight in a meaningful way that feels rewarding. Also helps break down the zerg a bit into different task. Right now its very offensive zerg oriented. This will break some of that down.

NPC Meta Bosses like some of the big named Boss Faction and Neutral NPC in Old AV would be a great addition here. It would add a new element that players would have to deal with for epic PvPvE fights at these locations. the threat of players and Bosses at once would ring of epicness in battle.

Also I prefer the respawn system Old AV used over the current waypoint system. Modern day large scale FPS games use similar timer based respawn system. This can allow more spawn locations to be placed over the map with this sort of restriction to keep epic battles going while also giving them a counter measure. This would lead to more epic large scale fights in more locations than just SMC and Keeps.

I know DBorderlands tried a little of this and failed, but put your money into improving the stability of the servers Anet and you will get this handled.

See? I get tired of threads that want a game to be another game.

WvW and GW2 have their problems. But making them into an old game that moved on from what you are noting isn’t the answer either.

Let WoW be WoW.

@"Knighthonor.4061" said:Recently I found this video breaking down what Old AV was, and how it was changed.

Vanilla Alterac Valley And Why Its Remembered - WCmini Facts

One really important factor here is the nerf and removal of NPCs from the experience, turned the map into a total zerg fest, which reminds me of the current state of WvW.

But this really reenforce my belief that having more NPC PvPvE content in WvW would make the game mode a lot more fun to play and creating more smaller objectives would also play a big role in improving WvW to what it was hyped up to be pre release.

Yeah I know WoW is kind of a hated topic around the GW2 community, but this is one aspect most can agree on was epic and way ahead of its time when large scale long duration PvP fights wasnt a thing anymore back then until its resurgence with Warhammer and GW2's WvW.

But WvW could really use some stronger NPC champions and Guard mechanics like in Old AV that prevented just using zerg tactics to take structures.

Also the introduction of more smaller scale objectives that could spawn powerful NPC units would really add more flavor to roamers as well as lesser skilled group fighters and give them a way to contribute to the fight in a meaningful way that feels rewarding. Also helps break down the zerg a bit into different task. Right now its very offensive zerg oriented. This will break some of that down.

NPC Meta Bosses like some of the big named Boss Faction and Neutral NPC in Old AV would be a great addition here. It would add a new element that players would have to deal with for epic PvPvE fights at these locations. the threat of players and Bosses at once would ring of epicness in battle.

Also I prefer the respawn system Old AV used over the current waypoint system. Modern day large scale FPS games use similar timer based respawn system. This can allow more spawn locations to be placed over the map with this sort of restriction to keep epic battles going while also giving them a counter measure. This would lead to more epic large scale fights in more locations than just SMC and Keeps.

I know DBorderlands tried a little of this and failed, but put your money into improving the stability of the servers Anet and you will get this handled.

I believe you’re in luck! Iirc, WoW Classic will have AV for you to play! Enjoy!

Here ya go buddy! “we’re planning to use the 1.12 version of Alterac Valley.”... Have fun!!! Wish you the best!!!

if these npc's (could even give existing npc's this) have anti zerg mechanics, then sure bring it on. just don't over do it.

@Swagger.1459 said:

@"Knighthonor.4061" said:Recently I found this video breaking down what Old AV was, and how it was changed.

Vanilla Alterac Valley And Why Its Remembered - WCmini Facts

One really important factor here is the nerf and removal of NPCs from the experience, turned the map into a total zerg fest, which reminds me of the current state of WvW.

But this really reenforce my belief that having more NPC PvPvE content in WvW would make the game mode a lot more fun to play and creating more smaller objectives would also play a big role in improving WvW to what it was hyped up to be pre release.

Yeah I know WoW is kind of a hated topic around the GW2 community, but this is one aspect most can agree on was epic and way ahead of its time when large scale long duration PvP fights wasnt a thing anymore back then until its resurgence with Warhammer and GW2's WvW.

But WvW could really use some stronger NPC champions and Guard mechanics like in Old AV that prevented just using zerg tactics to take structures.

Also the introduction of more smaller scale objectives that could spawn powerful NPC units would really add more flavor to roamers as well as lesser skilled group fighters and give them a way to contribute to the fight in a meaningful way that feels rewarding. Also helps break down the zerg a bit into different task. Right now its very offensive zerg oriented. This will break some of that down.

NPC Meta Bosses like some of the big named Boss Faction and Neutral NPC in Old AV would be a great addition here. It would add a new element that players would have to deal with for epic PvPvE fights at these locations. the threat of players and Bosses at once would ring of epicness in battle.

Also I prefer the respawn system Old AV used over the current waypoint system. Modern day large scale FPS games use similar timer based respawn system. This can allow more spawn locations to be placed over the map with this sort of restriction to keep epic battles going while also giving them a counter measure. This would lead to more epic large scale fights in more locations than just SMC and Keeps.

I know DBorderlands tried a little of this and failed, but put your money into improving the stability of the servers Anet and you will get this handled.

Same killing off the feature that made Old AV epic resulted in the same issues we face here in WvW. Zergfest with no outside roles for individuals. The NPCs in old AV were much more densely populated and much stronger compared to players.Well you see the video above, no need to explain everything. Current WvW remind me of current AV. Same issue. Flawed design decisions.

@Strider Pj.2193 said:See? I get tired of threads that want a game to be another game.

WvW and GW2 have their problems. But making them into an old game that moved on from what you are noting isn’t the answer either.

Let WoW be WoW.

That's the thing. WvW and Anet in general doing its own thing instead of learning from games of the past that made similar mistakes. This is what killed SPvP honestly after their Esport nonsense.Old AV was ahead of its time, which is why many people are speaking out against Blizzards decision on how they handle AV for classic WoW.Back then the long duration large scale fights was frowned upon by the heads of Blizzard since they to wanted to go Esport leadining into their first expansion with Arenas being the focus. That was a flop and later they regretted it. Fast forward to GW2 WvW, which was marketed as the next best thing for PvPvE gameplay. It had all the hype back then and all that flopped to its current form. People saying WvW is fine as is, are ignorant to the fact that somewhat Anet is also aware of the flop of WvW and pretty much ignored the game mode, likely because they don't know what to do. Things they tried never worked out long term.

And I broke down the reasons why in the above OP. Old AV transition into Current AV is a hands on history book on what not to do for a game mode like this, and how certain game design decisions would have certain cause and effects. We have a history book on this right there from one of the most popular MMOs in history. Took its own developers to kill it off.

NPC play a big role in PvPvE. Weak NPCs lead to Zergfest tacticsLack of small scale side objectives lead to players of all types sticking to the zerg like a wildebeest in Africa running across the crocodile infested Nile River in numbers as a form of defense. Small scale objectives like collection and running quest gave those individual players more of a role to play in the overall war. In WvW not so much since roamers have no real counter to enemy zergs in the same was those smaller collection and run objectives in Old AV could spawn powerful NPC units that could be a big favor in your faction's overall war and push into the enemy base.

The NPC structure bosses had powerful NPC guardsman which couldn't be taken lightly. That Zerging tactic didn't work back then and would lead to wipe. Made players understand pull mechanics and slowed down the rush of the fight which lead to more epic fights.

The spawn system would also contribute to spreading out the players and creating more large scale fights in more places. Right now normally we only have big fights in Keeps and SMC or on random encounters which is also normally avoided for more PvD.

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:Recently I found this video breaking down what Old AV was, and how it was changed.

Vanilla Alterac Valley And Why Its Remembered - WCmini Facts

One really important factor here is the nerf and removal of NPCs from the experience, turned the map into a total zerg fest, which reminds me of the current state of WvW.

But this really reenforce my belief that having more NPC PvPvE content in WvW would make the game mode a lot more fun to play and creating more smaller objectives would also play a big role in improving WvW to what it was hyped up to be pre release.

Yeah I know WoW is kind of a hated topic around the GW2 community, but this is one aspect most can agree on was epic and way ahead of its time when large scale long duration PvP fights wasnt a thing anymore back then until its resurgence with Warhammer and GW2's WvW.

But WvW could really use some stronger NPC champions and Guard mechanics like in Old AV that prevented just using zerg tactics to take structures.

Also the introduction of more smaller scale objectives that could spawn powerful NPC units would really add more flavor to roamers as well as lesser skilled group fighters and give them a way to contribute to the fight in a meaningful way that feels rewarding. Also helps break down the zerg a bit into different task. Right now its very offensive zerg oriented. This will break some of that down.

NPC Meta Bosses like some of the big named Boss Faction and Neutral NPC in Old AV would be a great addition here. It would add a new element that players would have to deal with for epic PvPvE fights at these locations. the threat of players and Bosses at once would ring of epicness in battle.

Also I prefer the respawn system Old AV used over the current waypoint system. Modern day large scale FPS games use similar timer based respawn system. This can allow more spawn locations to be placed over the map with this sort of restriction to keep epic battles going while also giving them a counter measure. This would lead to more epic large scale fights in more locations than just SMC and Keeps.

I know DBorderlands tried a little of this and failed, but put your money into improving the stability of the servers Anet and you will get this handled.

Go enjoy wow classic if you want battleground. And you clearly want battleground bc this is like your 4 thread asking for battle ground.

TL;DRAV was so great because of it's heavy PvE elements.

Genius! This is exactly what WvWers love!

as soon as anyone hears pve in a pvp mode they will lose it, but not without just cause since most games mess it up horribly.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:as soon as anyone hears pve in a pvp mode they will lose it, but not without just cause since most games mess it up horribly.

thats the thing Old AV did it right years ago. Been nearly a decade since it been gone. Its a history book on doing it right and what effects changes and removal of these systems have on the gameplay.

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:as soon as anyone hears pve in a pvp mode they will lose it, but not without just cause since most games mess it up horribly.

Ok.. I just see an inherent problem in the logic: AV did it right, failed, was changed, realized mistake, didn’t go back because why? Still not back after 10 years despite being great on ‘everyone’s’ opinion?

Something doesn’t match up..,

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:as soon as anyone hears pve in a pvp mode they will lose it, but not without just cause since most games mess it up horribly.

It was changed because the first expansion introduced a new endgame PvP. ARENAS Esport. It was a fail flopped, but by then the damage was done, was no going backwards reverting game design decisions , hence the existence of Classic WoW in the first place instead of making current wow like Classic.

Old AV was during a time when WoW was one of the biggest MMOs at that time, and PvP MMos generally were FFA Sandbox MMOs instead of Faction PvP. Warhammer Online didnt come to many years later after Old AV was killed off in late 2006. GW2 WvW wasnt a thing yet. The Large Scale Faction PvP wasnt a trendy thing back then. DAoC was long past its prime by that time. Warhammer Online is when the hype behind this came back, but that suffered from other issues and bugs.WvW was hyped up to be the next best thing for PvPvE, and well it flopped and suffers from many of the same issues post destruction of AV has. WvW been Bleeding players for a while now. Many attempts to fix this did nothing to help long term and continues to bleed. Next move is the Alliance system which likely wont do anything to improve WvW long term because it still wont address why so many people not having fun in the game mode and leaving. Some people believe the issue is class balance and want things like traits removed and stuff like that (Swagger). But Classes will never be balance . Wasnt balanced in WoW back then either. Thats not the problem.

WvW is an RvR mode based off of DAoC. WvW is not a BG mode based off of WoW AV.

@Swagger.1459 said:WvW is an RvR mode based off of DAoC. WvW is not a BG mode based off of WoW AV.

And its nothing like DAoC besides three sided battle. Doesnt even have decent faction pride.

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:WvW is an RvR mode based off of DAoC. WvW is not a BG mode based off of WoW AV.

You should really take advantage of wow classic av. Think you’ll love it!

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:WvW is an RvR mode based off of DAoC. WvW is not a BG mode based off of WoW AV.

Thats not Old AV, you know that right?