Raids Are Too Difficult, Create Easy Modes — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Raids Are Too Difficult, Create Easy Modes

So earlier today (Saturday) I was watching this streamer, MightyTeapot, who was hosting some raid tournament. I was told in chat that it featured the best guilds in the game and they were competing in the different raids. I don't follow elitists, why go to snowcrows when you can go to metabattle and get more builds for more game modes, but I saw that the "best" guilds weren't even completing the raids.

If the top tier guilds cannot complete the raids, how does arenanet expect my guild to complete the raids. We don't have any fancy ascended gear or people who can play classes like chronomancer; we don't have two hours a day to do a full wing; nor do people always want to do the raids. I tried pugging vale guardian, but was kicked from the group because they didn't want me tanking, for whatever reason.

The main point: if top tier guilds can't finish the raids, how does arena net expect my guild to beat them? We obviously cannot, so we must make easy mode raids.

Thank you for your time!

<13

Comments

  • Illconceived Was Na.9781Illconceived Was Na.9781 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 25, 2019

    @Fiery Mices.9172 said:
    if top tier guilds can't finish the raids,

    All sorts of guilds finish raids, including music guilds, PUGs, and even a guild run by a self-described "hardcore casual".

    how does arena net expect my guild to beat them?

    Anet only expects about 10-20% of players to participate in raids. They are designed as "challenging group content," i.e. not for everyone.

    Your guild could, if they want to. There's no real need to do so unless you enjoy the challenge.

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 25, 2019

    I was change my mind that raid is difficult after try complete aquatic ruin on t4 whit guild members .. May be now some points a changed, so be ready more hardcore existing raid wing upstate or etc. Also you always have a choose - DON'T GO raid at all IF for you this that is hard and you not like it. Try other content - pvp, wvw or dungeons.

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm probably getting trolled here, but w/e I'm fine with that being the case. However, if your not trolling then I gotta say this. If your going to make an argument for easy mode in raids, the case you laid out is a very poor argument.

    The tournament you watched today has restricted rules to make it harder:
    -challenge mote only (this is the equivalent of hard mode). 99% of groups you join are not doing challenge motes
    -9 players only. Most groups you join use 10 players
    -no downstate: any player who gets downed has to /gg

    The videos you watched today are almost completely disconnected from what your raid experience would be.

  • They'd have to give far less valuable rewards for it to be fair. And after the initial wave of players going through the story passed, no one would run the easy version.

    Raids are fine as they are. They even serve as a nice little "containment" mode.

  • I can't tell if it is trolling or the Dunning–Kruger effect.

  • reddie.5861reddie.5861 Member ✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    Anet only expects about 10-20% of players to participate in raids. They are designed as "challenging group content," i.e. not for everyone.

    when i read this kind of stuff + pve i kinda pee my self a little :D

  • Ooops.8694Ooops.8694 Member ✭✭

    @Fiery Mices.9172 said:
    We don't have any fancy ascended gear or people who can play classes like chronomancer;

    You read this and seriously doubt trolling? That's actually funnier than the whole opening post...

  • Raids are not difficult because of mechanics. They can be difficult only because of people making mistakes. And people are not ideal — they are making mistakes.

    No, we don't want easier raids. We do raids, because it's pretty challenging and beating something that can be failed easily makes us feel satisfied.

    Commander, to ME!

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fiery Mices.9172 said:
    So earlier today (Saturday) I was watching this streamer, MightyTeapot, who was hosting some raid tournament. I was told in chat that it featured the best guilds in the game and they were competing in the different raids. I don't follow elitists, why go to snowcrows when you can go to metabattle and get more builds for more game modes, but I saw that the "best" guilds weren't even completing the raids.

    If the top tier guilds cannot complete the raids, how does arenanet expect my guild to complete the raids. We don't have any fancy ascended gear or people who can play classes like chronomancer; we don't have two hours a day to do a full wing; nor do people always want to do the raids. I tried pugging vale guardian, but was kicked from the group because they didn't want me tanking, for whatever reason.

    The main point: if top tier guilds can't finish the raids, how does arena net expect my guild to beat them? We obviously cannot, so we must make easy mode raids.

    Thank you for your time!

    I'm not sure raids are a good fit for you. You failed at doing even the most basic research about an idea you are presenting.

    The Elitist Raiding Party 3 event had specific ruleset to it as to make the challenge more challenging.

    • Squads were made up of 9 players.
    • any player who gets downed has to immediately gg and thus gets removed from fight, unlike in actual raids where getting people up from downstate is possible.
    • all fights had to be done with the challenge mode activated thus making some fights significantly harder
    • time is a factor, as such the participating guilds had to decide how offensive they wanted to play (like Lucky Noobs going solo healer on Dhuum CM where two healers is common for Dhuum normal mode)

    The players you watched have absolutely 0 issue with raids. They even barely had issues with given those artificial restrictions.

    So to conclude: you are incorrect in your assumption by simple lack of facts and understanding.

  • @Fiery Mices.9172 said:

    If the top tier guilds cannot complete the raids, how does arenanet expect my guild to complete the raids.

    You straight up ignored the rules of the tournament.
    Every challenge mote was active and if a player went down at any moment of the run they must not be resurrected and /gg to kill themselves otherwise the team would get a time penality.

    Raids aren't even close to being as difficult as shown, the rules were straight up brutal.

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭✭

    It's worth noting that Mighty Teapot, who put the tournament together, is - himself - a vocal advocate of easy modes for raids in GW2, making the same argument that many of us have made on these forums for awhile now. They are needed to help keep the game mode alive longterm. He has made at least two videos on the subject (that make a ton of sense) and spoke about it during his "farewell" video earlier this month.

  • Towelie.9504Towelie.9504 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 26, 2019

    @Fiery Mices.9172 said:
    So earlier today (Saturday) I was watching this streamer, MightyTeapot, who was hosting some raid tournament. I was told in chat that it featured the best guilds in the game and they were competing in the different raids. I don't follow elitists, why go to snowcrows when you can go to metabattle and get more builds for more game modes, but I saw that the "best" guilds weren't even completing the raids.

    If the top tier guilds cannot complete the raids, how does arenanet expect my guild to complete the raids. We don't have any fancy ascended gear or people who can play classes like chronomancer; we don't have two hours a day to do a full wing; nor do people always want to do the raids. I tried pugging vale guardian, but was kicked from the group because they didn't want me tanking, for whatever reason.

    The main point: if top tier guilds can't finish the raids, how does arena net expect my guild to beat them? We obviously cannot, so we must make easy mode raids.

    Thank you for your time!

    These are CM raids and they're self-imposing restrictions on themselves to make it harder..... They're also running comps that are way more DPS focused (e.g. way more glassy, way more easy to die) as they're trying for speed runs, not to just finish the boss. The newest Raid wing was so easy groups were able to figure out the mechanics and beat them in a day, whereas previous raid wings took quite awhile before a group could do it and figure out the proper comps, proper mechanics etc (still IMO not long enough especially for CM).

    Raids are NOT difficult out of the box. If they're difficult for your guild it's either a comp issue or a lack of understanding of skill mechanics, or both. If you're taking your build from meta battle there's a good list of the proper rotations you should be trying to follow to optimize your dps, support etc. Basically... a learn to play issue if what I read from your post...

  • Towelie.9504Towelie.9504 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 26, 2019

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    It's worth noting that Mighty Teapot, who put the tournament together, is - himself - a vocal advocate of easy modes for raids in GW2, making the same argument that many of us have made on these forums for awhile now. They are needed to help keep the game mode alive longterm. He has made at least two videos on the subject (that make a ton of sense) and spoke about it during his "farewell" video earlier this month.

    On the other hand he's also been extremely a vocal advocate of upping the skill level as well in certain aspects. E.g. Open World PVE/Open World Bosses are so easy it's basically just a medal showing up. You literally do not have to look at your screen to play that game mode. While some parts may need to be tuned down in some aspects just so player who aren't familiar with their skill mechanics could learn perhaps easier (though I think personally that's a poor idea), this game's PVE content apart from Raids is actually insanely easy in general which has caused some Open World PVE players to never learn how to actually play their class despite maybe having hundreds to thousands of play hours on it.

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭✭

    @Towelie.9504 said:

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    It's worth noting that Mighty Teapot, who put the tournament together, is - himself - a vocal advocate of easy modes for raids in GW2, making the same argument that many of us have made on these forums for awhile now. They are needed to help keep the game mode alive longterm. He has made at least two videos on the subject (that make a ton of sense) and spoke about it during his "farewell" video earlier this month.

    On the other hand he's also been extremely a vocal advocate of upping the skill level as well in certain aspects. E.g. Open World PVE/Open World Bosses are so easy it's basically just a medal showing up. You literally do not have to look at your screen to play that game mode. While some parts may need to be tuned down in some aspects just so player who aren't familiar with their skill mechanics could learn perhaps easier (though I think personally that's a poor idea), this game's PVE content apart from Raids is actually insanely easy in general which has caused some Open World PVE players to never learn how to actually play their class despite maybe having hundreds to thousands of play hours on it.

    Which I also very much agree with - especially when it comes to living story. The point is that raids, in their current form, are not sustainable long term. They are too easy for the hardcore players and too hard for the casual players. There is no happy medium involving a single game mode that is going to attract enough players to keep the game mode alive (I realize that is, ofc, opinion, but one a number of people share).

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    It's worth noting that Mighty Teapot, who put the tournament together, is - himself - a vocal advocate of easy modes for raids in GW2, making the same argument that many of us have made on these forums for awhile now. They are needed to help keep the game mode alive longterm. He has made at least two videos on the subject (that make a ton of sense) and spoke about it during his "farewell" video earlier this month.

    Imo introducing more modes will only serve to bloat the content and make it overly complex from an outsider's prespective.

    I think it would be better instead of adding modes we better cater the existing ones. Make nm easier if needs be and make cms harder.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fiery Mices.9172 said:
    So earlier today (Saturday) I was watching this streamer, MightyTeapot, who was hosting some raid tournament. I was told in chat that it featured the best guilds in the game and they were competing in the different raids. I don't follow elitists, why go to snowcrows when you can go to metabattle and get more builds for more game modes, but I saw that the "best" guilds weren't even completing the raids.

    If the top tier guilds cannot complete the raids, how does arenanet expect my guild to complete the raids. We don't have any fancy ascended gear or people who can play classes like chronomancer; we don't have two hours a day to do a full wing; nor do people always want to do the raids. I tried pugging vale guardian, but was kicked from the group because they didn't want me tanking, for whatever reason.

    The main point: if top tier guilds can't finish the raids, how does arena net expect my guild to beat them? We obviously cannot, so we must make easy mode raids.

    Thank you for your time!

    I believe Anet does not intend for a group of average players to be able to complete raids. What they have done to accommodate this is have a lower threshold for success so a small number of people in the team can be carried by others who really know what to do. Some raids don't even do that unfortunately. This offends quite a number of people, both high performance and average skilled; no one really wants to carry or be carried. It's a fail strategy and Anet really missed the mark and should have take a que from almost every other game that does this kind of content; 2 levels of difficulty would have went a LONG way to serve most players in this game.

    if you haven't, check out the 1000 page thread that already discusses this from almost every angle available from both people for and against it.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Top tier guilds finish normal modes (and most CMs) with both hands tied behind their back.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Henry.5713 said:
    Top tier guilds finish normal modes (and most CMs) with both hands tied behind their back.

    Good for them. What about anyone that isn't the top 1%, though?

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Henry.5713 said:
    Top tier guilds finish normal modes (and most CMs) with both hands tied behind their back.

    Good for them. What about anyone that isn't the top 1%, though?

    God forbid some content being targeted at competent players.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Henry.5713 said:
    Top tier guilds finish normal modes (and most CMs) with both hands tied behind their back.

    Good for them. What about anyone that isn't the top 1%, though?

    There's a ton of other content geared for the rest of us. No reason not give the hard cores something too.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 30, 2019

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Henry.5713 said:
    Top tier guilds finish normal modes (and most CMs) with both hands tied behind their back.

    Good for them. What about anyone that isn't the top 1%, though?

    Well I'm sure while top tier guilds finish normal/CM with both their hands tied behind their back, normal guilds also finish normal/CM while actively using both hands. Do we really need to allow non-top tier guilds, or worse, the lowest of the low, to also beat normal modes and CMs with both hands behind their back?

  • My question: when you went to school for the first time could you multiply numbers from 1 to 20? And now is that any problem?
    Yes, if you dont try raids they are hard. But if they would be easy when you try for first time then they would be so boring when you do them for 5th time. There is no special reward (outside of skins) from raids. Most raiders do them because they enjoy them. And they enjoy them because they are not easy. Changing dificulty would be vad for the gamemode.

  • @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    Anet only expects about 10-20% of players to participate in raids. They are designed as "challenging group content," i.e. not for everyone.

    Given that today Anet announced they are putting a new Strike missions into the game with raid boss like mechanics to introduce people to raid bosses, suggests they want more people to get into them,

    In saying that they also stated that people find it difficult to get into them, or cant find 10 players etc, would have been the best time to introduce, Easy Mode, Normal Mode and Hardmode, and adjust rewads to suit, that would allow people to get into them, raids themselves are not that hard, its just mechanics, but people fear that.

    Don't say what you mean, it will get you in trouble.

  • @Ok I Did It.2854 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    Anet only expects about 10-20% of players to participate in raids. They are designed as "challenging group content," i.e. not for everyone.

    Given that today Anet announced they are putting a new Strike missions into the game with raid boss like mechanics to introduce people to raid bosses, suggests they want more people to get into them,

    That's a change in policy/planning. Which might (or might not) be to the benefit of the game overall.
    Doesn't change what they expected when HoT launched: we had ~15% participation in raids and ANet said they were happy with better-than-expected results.

    Keep in mind my statement was a response to the OP wondering how their guild was expected to play raids. I wasn't making a blanket statement about whether ANet would ever change their mind.

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What i read from it is that strikes will replace raids.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think strikes are just there to hand out more group content because endless map grinding won't hold the community together in the game. Side effect will be that some players here and there will eventually join the real raids but I don't think it's their main intention with them. Open world content is just dull if we look at the maps from the past so it makes sense to unite players into smaller groups/squads. They are way more charming than map squads and the strikes will be less stressful like announced.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 30, 2019

    @zealex.9410 said:
    What i read from it is that strikes will replace raids.

    More like they will bridge the gap. I expect them to be something similar to the Freezie Wintersday mini-raid, both in difficulty AND the length. To be honest, it will be a great opportunity for those asking for easier modes for the "actual" Raids to go and do the Strikes and prove to Arenanet that they are worth the effort. Who knows, if these Strikes prove to be massively popular maybe they'll add different Raid difficulties.

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 30, 2019

    Strikes sound like the direction they should have taken regarding difficult content from the very start - only, instead of positioning them as "raid starters," actually give them multiple difficulties ranging from starter to eye bleeding hard. Single encounter, difficult content (scaled for inclusive reasons) that ties directly to the story would have been likely easier to maintain and deliver on a regular basis. Imagine one or two with each living story update rather than the packaged "raids" once every 9 months. It just fits better with the model they use.

    I doubt they are replacing raids, but I can pretty much guarantee they are using the same development resources as raids, meaning they will likely impact the pacing of that content. It's time to stop this halfway way of doing things and actually commit to integrating hard content into GW2 in a meaningful way - a way that fits with the ongoing development model they are using in the living world (and hint - raids are not that - they are the same antiquated model every other MMO has done, only without many of the elements those games used to keep them relevant - eg, tiered difficulties and story tie ins).

  • Naxos.2503Naxos.2503 Member ✭✭✭

    I personally think Strike Missions are going to help serve as an entry point for raids. Which is a very good and elegant solution for the mode to gain new adherent.

    Now obviously hardcore players are going to say "But we dont want that, that's too easy, where is our good stuff" Think of it as a long term investment. If they successfully manage to jumpstart Raid Interest, then they are more than likely going to invest more effort to satisfy a growing trend. Which incidentally means more Raid content down the line.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I enjoyed the wintersday raid and never could get into the normal raids due to the elitism and strict requirements a lot of raiders put on everyone.

    These Strike missions sound far more like my kind of thing, i'm looking forward to testing them out ^^

  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Your wish is yours to keep

    HARRY! DIDYA PUT YER NAME IN DA GOBLET OF FIYAH?!

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I enjoyed the wintersday raid and never could get into the normal raids due to the elitism and strict requirements a lot of raiders put on everyone.

    These Strike missions sound far more like my kind of thing, i'm looking forward to testing them out ^^

    What is stoping you from opening up your own squad, open for everyone ofcourse and start doing raids?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 30, 2019

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Ok I Did It.2854 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    Anet only expects about 10-20% of players to participate in raids. They are designed as "challenging group content," i.e. not for everyone.

    Given that today Anet announced they are putting a new Strike missions into the game with raid boss like mechanics to introduce people to raid bosses, suggests they want more people to get into them,

    That's a change in policy/planning. Which might (or might not) be to the benefit of the game overall.

    This.

    Strikes as they were described mean the following if read within context:

    • Arenanet do not plan for easy mode raids any time soon (or multiple difficulties), at least not for the current raids and potential future raids
    • there might not be future raid content if strikes are their direct replacement
    • strikes as more accessible but potentially required content are shifting this games overall focus on more raid like content. This is a two edged sword. If it pays off and more players are encouraged/trained for more challenging content, great. If not, there goes a lot of resources down the drain.

    Strike missions could be similar to the arena event during Dragonbash. Then have them continually increase in difficulty for better rewards.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Ok I Did It.2854 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    Anet only expects about 10-20% of players to participate in raids. They are designed as "challenging group content," i.e. not for everyone.

    Given that today Anet announced they are putting a new Strike missions into the game with raid boss like mechanics to introduce people to raid bosses, suggests they want more people to get into them,

    That's a change in policy/planning. Which might (or might not) be to the benefit of the game overall.

    This.

    Strikes as they were described mean the following if read within context:

    • Arenanet do not plan for easy mode raids any time soon (or multiple difficulties), at least not for the current raids and potential future raids
    • there might not be future raid content if strikes are their direct replacement
    • strikes as more accessible but potentially required content are shifting this games overall focus on more raid like content. This is a two edged sword. If it pays off and more players are encouraged/trained for more challenging content, great. If not, there goes a lot of resources down the drain.

    Strike missions could be similar to the arena event during Dragonbash. Then have them continually increase in difficulty for better rewards.

    Sounds like a 10 man instance world boss to me

  • Xar.6279Xar.6279 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 30, 2019

    It just looks like GW2 PvE is going back to it's roots. So it will be accessible to everyone again. It's time to accept this fact. Gw2 is not raiding mmo and it looks like it won't be. It's too late for it. Imo "strike missions" will be really fun for many GW2 PvErs.

    When players will get bored of "strike missions" someday, then Arena Net will again come up with something new then. It's their idea on doing pve in Guild Wars 2. It was always like that. You never know what's next.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I enjoyed the wintersday raid and never could get into the normal raids due to the elitism and strict requirements a lot of raiders put on everyone.

    These Strike missions sound far more like my kind of thing, i'm looking forward to testing them out ^^

    What is stoping you from opening up your own squad, open for everyone ofcourse and start doing raids?

    Chance of actually completing the content.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I enjoyed the wintersday raid and never could get into the normal raids due to the elitism and strict requirements a lot of raiders put on everyone.

    These Strike missions sound far more like my kind of thing, i'm looking forward to testing them out ^^

    What is stoping you from opening up your own squad, open for everyone ofcourse and start doing raids?

    Experience.

    Most experienced raiders are either not going to join the group because of the noobs or they'll take over the group entirely and demand people kick out those who they deem a burden.

    I've attempted my own squads on several occasions and more often than not it's half an hour standing around waiting and not enough people joining.
    The only time i've successfually managed to get a raid group is by organizing with a group of friends which took a significant amount of time and effort due to timezones and real life obligations.

    Without a decent amount of raiding experience it's nearly impossible to find a pug group, let alone one that knows what it's doing as stands a chance.

    The Wintersday raid was far friendlier to the wider Gw2 playerbase and a very good introduction to raid like content.
    The Raid group I managed to get together only did so because of that Wintersday Raid, so these Strike missions seem like a great stepping stone to getting more people interested in raids, and if not then i'll be content with more strike missions lol

  • Captain Kuro.8937Captain Kuro.8937 Member
    edited August 31, 2019

    What if some asian kid could control the boss , from his smartphone , while he plays ''hack and slash''!
    Or looking from the boss back (3rd person view) , limiting his view and seeing some mini shadows as opponents ?
    (even if its a GW2 boss or BnS World Boss or Lineage Dungeon Boss , or simply facing Npcs

    In his screen he is doing a campaing/
    /playing god of war with his son attreus/
    shadow of murder /
    /trickster shapeswift god /
    /playing as a mischief Okami Tha posses Npcs and trip down players in a Watered down form of the ingame gw2 or leaping through various ncsoftgames/
    /as a player's pet or go in his body fighting infections and offering buffs or improving-replacing the player attacks-spells. And reading some lines in the walls, from the bio the possessed player have wrote for his character
    /transforming into toaster that generate more hype and it will destroyed... Soon
    /going from 1 place to the ''endgoal'' to get his loot , while a red circle limiting /forcing his to fight the raiders/ppl (when they start attacking the Npc Bossin their own game))
    At 20% of the Boss HP , the player disconect from the Raid and he face Npcs to get his daily reward/get to endgame.
    Or the player can call upon the Power of Tyrannia , if the fight is unfavored to him /reducing the rewards he get in the end , that kills all players is his schreen or empowering with huge amount of energy for 10 sec (teleporting out of the raids in the end) and keep doing his own NPC slaghuter till the endgoal
    While the Raiders face an 20% Enraged+buffed up Normal NPC boss , to get their own reward

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 31, 2019

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I enjoyed the wintersday raid and never could get into the normal raids due to the elitism and strict requirements a lot of raiders put on everyone.

    These Strike missions sound far more like my kind of thing, i'm looking forward to testing them out ^^

    What is stoping you from opening up your own squad, open for everyone ofcourse and start doing raids?

    Experience.

    Most experienced raiders are either not going to join the group because of the noobs or they'll take over the group entirely and demand people kick out those who they deem a burden.

    First mistake, you are not experienced raiders so why are you expecting experienced raiders to join your PUG group?

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I've attempted my own squads on several occasions and more often than not it's half an hour standing around waiting and not enough people joining.
    The only time i've successfually managed to get a raid group is by organizing with a group of friends which took a significant amount of time and effort due to timezones and real life obligations.

    and yet there is constantly people who have posted how they have successfully started raiding. Most of them used guilds or training discords to learn the fights. I guess this comes down to: some people are able, and some are not.

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    Without a decent amount of raiding experience it's nearly impossible to find a pug group, let alone one that knows what it's doing as stands a chance.

    PUG groups are not for inexperienced raiders. Never have been. This has been explained often by now.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    The Wintersday raid was far friendlier to the wider Gw2 playerbase and a very good introduction to raid like content.
    The Raid group I managed to get together only did so because of that Wintersday Raid, so these Strike missions seem like a great stepping stone to getting more people interested in raids, and if not then i'll be content with more strike missions lol

    Unless the strike missions are to difficult for you I assume. We don't have any referance of how difficult the strike missions will actually be.

    Anyway, this has been discussed so often, it seems there is a very resilient part of the player base which neither wants or is capable of joining guilds or raid trainings but at the same time expects raids to be accessible to them at absolute lack of experience.

    Strikes will not make existing raids magically easier. The requirements in experience for success will not drop. The only thing which might happen is that more inexperienced players are temporarily interested in raid content (remains to be seen) which would ease the creation of practice groups via the LFG. Practice groups are not easy and even harder when comprised completely of inexperienced players. The net result to get into actual raids will remain the same: use the proper approach (mostly outside of PUG anf LFG groups), practice, practice, practice.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 31, 2019

    @Xar.6279 said:
    It just looks like GW2 PvE is going back to it's roots. So it will be accessible to everyone again. It's time to accept this fact. Gw2 is not raiding mmo and it looks like it won't be. It's too late for it. Imo "strike missions" will be really fun for many GW2 PvErs.

    When players will get bored of "strike missions" someday, then Arena Net will again come up with something new then. It's their idea on doing pve in Guild Wars 2. It was always like that. You never know what's next.

    It's not going back to the roots. What means "again"? At release and all the years afterwards there has always been content not accessible to everyone. Early dungeons, then different dungeon paths and whole ones (Arah, CoE) + lvl 80 fractals, then fractals, after HoT T4 fractals + raids + CMs for both.
    People always forget the past too easily. Before HoT the most complaints were that people weren't taken into dungeon groups because they refused play zerker stats and didn't have enough AP (ridiculous requirement, we all know but still). Not to speak about necromances + (mostly bear-bow) rangers. Even if you wanted to as a non-ambitious player you had a hard time succeeding in dungeons that weren't ez pz farm mode like overhauled AC, CoF, TA. Nothing has changed or will change. They didn't announce stopping raid or fractal releases they just introduced an additional thing to make LS more interesting hopefully and not the same grind-only stuff on the maps.

  • Wing 8 was confirmed so strike will not replace raids. I very rarely see anyone kicked from raids. I never saw any experianced player take over training raid (unless that raid didnt have a commander tag).

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Wing 8 was confirmed so strike will not replace raids. I very rarely see anyone kicked from raids. I never saw any experianced player take over training raid (unless that raid didnt have a commander tag).

    When was wing 8 confirmed?

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 31, 2019

    One of anet employes said that it is work in progress. Will add name if I find it.

    Edit: someone named jonah

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    One of anet employes said that it is work in progress. Will add name if I find it.

    Edit: someone named jonah

    Do you have a quote?

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I enjoyed the wintersday raid and never could get into the normal raids due to the elitism and strict requirements a lot of raiders put on everyone.

    These Strike missions sound far more like my kind of thing, i'm looking forward to testing them out ^^

    What is stoping you from opening up your own squad, open for everyone ofcourse and start doing raids?

    Experience.

    Most experienced raiders are either not going to join the group because of the noobs or they'll take over the group entirely and demand people kick out those who they deem a burden.

    First mistake, you are not experienced raiders so why are you expecting experienced raiders to join your PUG group?

    Two main reasons.

    1. Because a large number of the playerbase is typically friendly, helpful and willing to team up with inexperienced players and help them.
    2. Because experienced raiders make up almost 100% of the raiding community.

    Unfortunately though the raid community is a lot more restrictive than the rest of the PvE game and that's made it very difficult for a lot of people to get into, hence it's small population problem.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I've attempted my own squads on several occasions and more often than not it's half an hour standing around waiting and not enough people joining.
    The only time i've successfually managed to get a raid group is by organizing with a group of friends which took a significant amount of time and effort due to timezones and real life obligations.

    and yet there is constantly people who have posted how they have successfully started raiding. Most of them used guilds or training discords to learn the fights. I guess this comes down to: some people are able, and some are not.

    More some people are lucky and some are not.
    As I said I did get a group together once and we beat our first raid easily enough despite no experience with the boss or it's mechanics.
    With the 10 man limit on Raid squads there is only a limited amount of space available for the noobs, even in raid guilds there will always be those that just can't get in.
    My main guild has 6 different raid squads and it's very difficult trying to get in them even for training runs.

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    Without a decent amount of raiding experience it's nearly impossible to find a pug group, let alone one that knows what it's doing as stands a chance.

    PUG groups are not for inexperienced raiders. Never have been. This has been explained often by now.

    This is the very same need experience for a job but need a job to get the experience paradox lol.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    The Wintersday raid was far friendlier to the wider Gw2 playerbase and a very good introduction to raid like content.
    The Raid group I managed to get together only did so because of that Wintersday Raid, so these Strike missions seem like a great stepping stone to getting more people interested in raids, and if not then i'll be content with more strike missions lol

    Unless the strike missions are to difficult for you I assume. We don't have any referance of how difficult the strike missions will actually be.

    Anyway, this has been discussed so often, it seems there is a very resilient part of the player base which neither wants or is capable of joining guilds or raid trainings but at the same time expects raids to be accessible to them at absolute lack of experience.

    Strikes will not make existing raids magically easier. The requirements in experience for success will not drop. The only thing which might happen is that more inexperienced players are temporarily interested in raid content (remains to be seen) which would ease the creation of practice groups via the LFG. Practice groups are not easy and even harder when comprised completely of inexperienced players. The net result to get into actual raids will remain the same: use the proper approach (mostly outside of PUG anf LFG groups), practice, practice, practice.

    Unlikely, Raids are not that all that difficult once you know what to do and what you need to avoid.
    A fair number of raid bosses rely on moderatly easy to avoid insta kill mechanics and a combination of time limits and super spongy Hp bars, once you're familiar with avoiding those insta kills that challenge diminishes rapidly and I've heard that claim from many raiders over the years.

    I'm not a Gw2 noob, i've played for years, solo'd a fair amount of the games more difficult PvE group content.
    Im a competent player so the "difficult" aspect of raiding is not the problem, it's finding a group that's the hardest part.
    That's what strike missions are hopefully going to remedy by being more accessable to more players which may or may not increase the player base of the raiding community too which will again be a good thing for the game.
    Raids only appeal to a very small community of players right now so one could easily argue that Anet is wasting a lot of time and resources even making that content.
    If strike missions help bring more players to raids then that's a win for both raiders and non raiders alike.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 31, 2019

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I enjoyed the wintersday raid and never could get into the normal raids due to the elitism and strict requirements a lot of raiders put on everyone.

    These Strike missions sound far more like my kind of thing, i'm looking forward to testing them out ^^

    What is stoping you from opening up your own squad, open for everyone ofcourse and start doing raids?

    Experience.

    Most experienced raiders are either not going to join the group because of the noobs or they'll take over the group entirely and demand people kick out those who they deem a burden.

    First mistake, you are not experienced raiders so why are you expecting experienced raiders to join your PUG group?

    Two main reasons.

    1. Because a large number of the playerbase is typically friendly, helpful and willing to team up with inexperienced players and help them.

    Which experienced raiders do when they lead training runs or specific runs for introducing new players to this content. While doing their own clears, they just want success.

    1. Because experienced raiders make up almost 100% of the raiding community.

    Unfortunately though the raid community is a lot more restrictive than the rest of the PvE game and that's made it very difficult for a lot of people to get into, hence it's small population problem.

    True, the rest of the game requires a lot less organization and provides near no challenge. The issue with rewards for challenging content, it breeds exclusion because failure means no reward.

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I've attempted my own squads on several occasions and more often than not it's half an hour standing around waiting and not enough people joining.
    The only time i've successfually managed to get a raid group is by organizing with a group of friends which took a significant amount of time and effort due to timezones and real life obligations.

    and yet there is constantly people who have posted how they have successfully started raiding. Most of them used guilds or training discords to learn the fights. I guess this comes down to: some people are able, and some are not.

    More some people are lucky and some are not.
    As I said I did get a group together once and we beat our first raid easily enough despite no experience with the boss or it's mechanics.
    With the 10 man limit on Raid squads there is only a limited amount of space available for the noobs, even in raid guilds there will always be those that just can't get in.
    My main guild has 6 different raid squads and it's very difficult trying to get in them even for training runs.

    That's unfortunate. I guess this is guild unique. We have regular training runs, but often lack players who are willing to commit or even try raids.

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    Without a decent amount of raiding experience it's nearly impossible to find a pug group, let alone one that knows what it's doing as stands a chance.

    PUG groups are not for inexperienced raiders. Never have been. This has been explained often by now.

    This is the very same need experience for a job but need a job to get the experience paradox lol.

    No it's not. PUG raids are job postings for people with experience in the job. Training runs (from guilds, dircord or LFG) are for inexperienced players. People keep confusing this because they assume that the ease of joining raids is synonymous with ease of content completion. It is in fact the opposite: ease of group creation means more demand on individual skill since this content is made for organized groups.

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    The Wintersday raid was far friendlier to the wider Gw2 playerbase and a very good introduction to raid like content.
    The Raid group I managed to get together only did so because of that Wintersday Raid, so these Strike missions seem like a great stepping stone to getting more people interested in raids, and if not then i'll be content with more strike missions lol

    Unless the strike missions are to difficult for you I assume. We don't have any referance of how difficult the strike missions will actually be.

    Anyway, this has been discussed so often, it seems there is a very resilient part of the player base which neither wants or is capable of joining guilds or raid trainings but at the same time expects raids to be accessible to them at absolute lack of experience.

    Strikes will not make existing raids magically easier. The requirements in experience for success will not drop. The only thing which might happen is that more inexperienced players are temporarily interested in raid content (remains to be seen) which would ease the creation of practice groups via the LFG. Practice groups are not easy and even harder when comprised completely of inexperienced players. The net result to get into actual raids will remain the same: use the proper approach (mostly outside of PUG anf LFG groups), practice, practice, practice.

    Unlikely, Raids are not that all that difficult once you know what to do and what you need to avoid.
    A fair number of raid bosses rely on moderatly easy to avoid insta kill mechanics and a combination of time limits and super spongy Hp bars, once you're familiar with avoiding those insta kills that challenge diminishes rapidly and I've heard that claim from many raiders over the years.

    I'm not a Gw2 noob, i've played for years, solo'd a fair amount of the games more difficult PvE group content.
    Im a competent player so the "difficult" aspect of raiding is not the problem, it's finding a group that's the hardest part.

    You won't believe how often I have heard this line. No offence, but I have yet to see ANY player who is good at this game when they transition to raids, and I have seen many new players start raiding. The best one can hope for is players who are experienced in challenge mode fractals, but even they will underperform initially.

    Friendly advice: assume you are bad at the game and need to improve because in reality, thre is a very high probability that you are, just like every other new raider before you. We all started as useless plebs because there is absolutely no content in this game which prepares one for raids. Very easy to check btw: go and do some golem training and see if you are hitting 90% snowcrows benchmark. If you do, then you are at least semi prepared and only lack boss mechanics. If you don't, well then you know where you stand as far as experience goes.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I enjoyed the wintersday raid and never could get into the normal raids due to the elitism and strict requirements a lot of raiders put on everyone.

    These Strike missions sound far more like my kind of thing, i'm looking forward to testing them out ^^

    What is stoping you from opening up your own squad, open for everyone ofcourse and start doing raids?

    Experience.

    Most experienced raiders are either not going to join the group because of the noobs or they'll take over the group entirely and demand people kick out those who they deem a burden.

    First mistake, you are not experienced raiders so why are you expecting experienced raiders to join your PUG group?

    Two main reasons.

    1. Because a large number of the playerbase is typically friendly, helpful and willing to team up with inexperienced players and help them.

    Which experienced raiders do when they lead training runs or specific runs for introducing new players to this content. While doing their own clears, they just want success.

    I don't blame them for that, however it does contribute to the problem of a lot of people being excluded and unable to find a group.
    It wasn't as bad but I do remember back in the early days of the game, dungeons and later on fractals also had this same problem on a smaller scale.
    It personally put me off dungeons for a long time because I couldn't stand seeing people join my groups and demand we kick out the non 80's or the wrong classes etc
    Hell it still happens, just on very rare occasions thankfully.
    It's actually funny when it happens now though, dungeons are not even considered slightly difficult content these days so complaining about someone not being max level in them is just ridiculous lol

    1. Because experienced raiders make up almost 100% of the raiding community.

    Unfortunately though the raid community is a lot more restrictive than the rest of the PvE game and that's made it very difficult for a lot of people to get into, hence it's small population problem.

    True, the rest of the game requires a lot less organization and provides near no challenge. The issue with rewards for challenging content, it breeds exclusion because failure means no reward.

    It can but you typically have to make your own challenge, that often comes down to soloing stuff that's designed for groups though or giving yourself crippling handicaps.
    It's quite fun but unrewarding in terms of loot, but that's not why I personally do it, I do it just to prove to myself I can.

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I've attempted my own squads on several occasions and more often than not it's half an hour standing around waiting and not enough people joining.
    The only time i've successfually managed to get a raid group is by organizing with a group of friends which took a significant amount of time and effort due to timezones and real life obligations.

    and yet there is constantly people who have posted how they have successfully started raiding. Most of them used guilds or training discords to learn the fights. I guess this comes down to: some people are able, and some are not.

    More some people are lucky and some are not.
    As I said I did get a group together once and we beat our first raid easily enough despite no experience with the boss or it's mechanics.
    With the 10 man limit on Raid squads there is only a limited amount of space available for the noobs, even in raid guilds there will always be those that just can't get in.
    My main guild has 6 different raid squads and it's very difficult trying to get in them even for training runs.

    That's unfortunate. I guess this is guild unique. We have regular training runs, but often lack players who are willing to commit or even try raids.

    It appears to be one or the other, that problem exists in another guild i'm in as well.
    Either can't get in because too many regular raiders or not enough people ever join lol

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    Without a decent amount of raiding experience it's nearly impossible to find a pug group, let alone one that knows what it's doing as stands a chance.

    PUG groups are not for inexperienced raiders. Never have been. This has been explained often by now.

    This is the very same need experience for a job but need a job to get the experience paradox lol.

    No it's not. PUG raids are job postings for people with experience in the job. Training runs (from guilds, dircord or LFG) are for inexperienced players. People keep confusing this because they assume that the ease of joining raids is synonymous with ease of content completion. It is in fact the opposite: ease of group creation means more demand on individual skill since this content is made for organized groups.

    That's what I mean, you can't just advertise a all welcome group for raids like you can in fractals and dungeons and find enough people.
    Experienced raiders aint going to join it for reasons you said above and there are so few other people even trying to get into raids that you'll be lucky to even get half a squad going.
    This is what I am hoping the strike missions will help remedy.
    People are going to be far more likely to keep trying if they at least have a half decent chance of getting into a group.. even a bad one that fails.

    As it is now you can advertise a anyone welcome group and spend over an hour waiting around for people to join only to give up because nobody does.
    This is a old trope in the MMO genre that Gw2 was specifically designed not to have in it's group content so it's completely understandable that because it exists exclusively in the raid content that it's so effective in turning people away from it.

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    The Wintersday raid was far friendlier to the wider Gw2 playerbase and a very good introduction to raid like content.
    The Raid group I managed to get together only did so because of that Wintersday Raid, so these Strike missions seem like a great stepping stone to getting more people interested in raids, and if not then i'll be content with more strike missions lol

    Unless the strike missions are to difficult for you I assume. We don't have any referance of how difficult the strike missions will actually be.

    Anyway, this has been discussed so often, it seems there is a very resilient part of the player base which neither wants or is capable of joining guilds or raid trainings but at the same time expects raids to be accessible to them at absolute lack of experience.

    Strikes will not make existing raids magically easier. The requirements in experience for success will not drop. The only thing which might happen is that more inexperienced players are temporarily interested in raid content (remains to be seen) which would ease the creation of practice groups via the LFG. Practice groups are not easy and even harder when comprised completely of inexperienced players. The net result to get into actual raids will remain the same: use the proper approach (mostly outside of PUG anf LFG groups), practice, practice, practice.

    Unlikely, Raids are not that all that difficult once you know what to do and what you need to avoid.
    A fair number of raid bosses rely on moderatly easy to avoid insta kill mechanics and a combination of time limits and super spongy Hp bars, once you're familiar with avoiding those insta kills that challenge diminishes rapidly and I've heard that claim from many raiders over the years.

    I'm not a Gw2 noob, i've played for years, solo'd a fair amount of the games more difficult PvE group content.
    Im a competent player so the "difficult" aspect of raiding is not the problem, it's finding a group that's the hardest part.

    You won't believe how often I have heard this line. No offence, but I have yet to see ANY player who is good at this game when they transition to raids, and I have seen many new players start raiding. The best one can hope for is players who are experienced in challenge mode fractals, but even they will underperform initially.

    Friendly advice: assume you are bad at the game and need to improve because in reality, thre is a very high probability that you are, just like every other new raider before you. We all started as useless plebs because there is absolutely no content in this game which prepares one for raids. Very easy to check btw: go and do some golem training and see if you are hitting 90% snowcrows benchmark. If you do, then you are at least semi prepared and only lack boss mechanics. If you don't, well then you know where you stand as far as experience goes.

    None taken.
    There's always a learning curve sure, knowing mechanics and tells and actually having experience with them is a whole different thing.
    Problem is a lot of people don't get to have that experience because of how restrictive raids became.
    Nothing kills peoples interest quicker than feeling excluded or that they don't stand a chance so why bother trying.

    When the content first came out it was really easy to find a pug group and jump in, it was a lot of fun too and nobody I ran with was salty about failing even when we almost beat the Vale Guard.
    If it were still that easy to find a group of randoms I think a lot more people would keep trying to get into raids.
    I do beleive there are a lot of players in the game that do want to play and enjoy the raids, but they feel they're unwelcome there so they just don't even try anymore.
    I had that a long time ago with dungeons as I said above and I've felt that way about raids as well for a long time.
    I can pug any dungeon or fractal these days and carry a whole party through it if need be, the only thing that really changed was that the elitism went away and more people got into the content and gained the experience they needed to beat it.
    Now anyone can run with anyone in them with very high success rate and the content is largely considered unchallenging or too easy, hence the whole reason raids was ever a demand in the first place.
    If more people had access to raids through the LFG I expect it would be a lot easier for anyone to be able to find a pug group and beat at least some of the content.
    But everytime they try they see that "exp only" comment and are reminded that they are just unwelcome there.. exactly like it used to be with dungeons and fractals.

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