Imo raid cms (and fractal ones maybe) should have downstate disabled. — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Imo raid cms (and fractal ones maybe) should have downstate disabled.

Title, as a concept its not unheard of in the game, wvw has had no downstate events so the tech is there.

Ive always thought of this idea but the erp pmuch solidified it as a cool mechanic. It adds alot of tention and makes raids alot more interesting to watch.

Plus erp has shown us that its very possible for these raids to he cleared without ressing players.

Comments

  • tl;dr the mechanics that make things exciting for spectators aren't the same as what makes content fun for players.

    "No downstate" is fun for an even smaller subset of players than CM, which is a subset of those interested in raids, which is a subset of the overall community. Those that want it can already have it, by simply typing /gg, as people did during the ERP.

    "No downstate" punishes people for experimenting and it makes it harder for people to learn. It adds a minor challenge for those who are already good at the game.

    It was great during the ERP because it forced a change of strat, which put raid-selling teams on an equal (awkward) footing with the teams that were less experienced with low-tooning raids. It made the contest more fun for the observers.

    However, ask the participants if they'd want "no downstate" for all raids, all the time. I don't think they'd universally agree that it would make things more fun on a week-to-week basis.

    I don't really oppose the idea, because there are some pros as well as cons. I just can't imagine any reason why ANet would spend the time to plan it, let alone implement.

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    tl;dr the mechanics that make things exciting for spectators aren't the same as what makes content fun for players.

    "No downstate" is fun for an even smaller subset of players than CM, which is a subset of those interested in raids, which is a subset of the overall community. Those that want it can already have it, by simply typing /gg, as people did during the ERP.

    "No downstate" punishes people for experimenting and it makes it harder for people to learn. It adds a minor challenge for those who are already good at the game.

    It was great during the ERP because it forced a change of strat, which put raid-selling teams on an equal (awkward) footing with the teams that were less experienced with low-tooning raids. It made the contest more fun for the observers.

    However, ask the participants if they'd want "no downstate" for all raids, all the time. I don't think they'd universally agree that it would make things more fun on a week-to-week basis.

    I don't really oppose the idea, because there are some pros as well as cons. I just can't imagine any reason why ANet would spend the time to plan it, let alone implement.

    The notion that cms havent been hard enough for being cms isnt really a new thing and i believe this could help with that. Yes not having a ress limit build experimentation on the ressing side of gw2 (like well rez on necro or that one skill on mesmer) but players are already challenged to somewhat optimise their setups when they jump in raid cms for the first time and any time afterwards should they want a fast kill.

    It was actually Nike who posted during the ERP that raids should be by default no downstate (which i think for nm downstate is honestly fine) and was also retweeted by might teapot both of which are vets of the scene.

    I believe cms living up to their name of being challenging outweights the possible limitation to build making that having no downstate would possibly bring.

  • Sapphire.3609Sapphire.3609 Member
    edited August 26, 2019

    I think the downstate is a nice mechanic pretty unique to GW2, and a lot of raid encounters are balanced around having the downstate as a safety barrier before completely dying so that allies can resurrect you (e.g. some boss attacks/mechanics will instantly down you while other more punishing ones will kill you, bypassing the downstate by design).

    Removing the downstate would be like removing an important part of combat in this game, and would make certain encounters unnecessarily challenging, even for people that are already experienced at them (e.g. Qadim 1.0 CM, as seen in the ERP).

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭

    Agree that's it's fun to watch, not fun to play. Putting you in downstate vs killing you is a design balance lever that they already use in raid design. If they wanted mechanics to kill you, they'd simply program it to do so eg. Falling off qadim platform or taking a ride in the tornadoes. Removing a balance lever from anets already limited repertoire sounds like a bad idea.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 26, 2019

    I have no problem with that idea. Give them a CM CM where this is implemented by default. Hand out 5g per boss on a weekly basis and watch what happens...scene dies anyways due to slow release cadences of fracs & raids.

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It makes me remember how my pug squad leeched samarog cm with heal scourge. kitten it was fiesta

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 27, 2019

    Apparently the participants really liked the no downstate rule so the notion that ppl wouldnt like is basically jsut assumptions at best.

    I think like the encounters on release it would pose an innitial challenge for groups to overcome but overtime it would end up being a non issue. Again btw refering strictly to cms.

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    Putting you in downstate vs killing you is a design balance lever that they already use in raid design. If they wanted mechanics to kill you, they'd simply program it to do so eg. Falling off qadim platform or taking a ride in the tornadoes.

    You could replace this with killing you vs not killing you and the end result would be the same. Its not like downing you actually does anything, if we had extreme dps checks and enrage timers then maybe but both those aspect are very forgiving for downstate to mean anything for the encounter.

    They could maybe experiment woth the idea of limited revives for downed ppl so theres some element of strategy and choice while also making it more bad player firendly than the suggested no downstate.

    Tho to be completely honest they are called cm for a reason, you should go into cms knowing the base fight very well as well as maybe watching guides.

    Theres also the discussion about repeatable cms and how this michanic might interact with the cms and their rewards which us also an interesting subject.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 27, 2019

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    I have no problem with that idea. Give them a CM CM where this is implemented by default. Hand out 5g per boss on a weekly basis and watch what happens...scene dies anyways due to slow release cadences of fracs & raids.

    Yeah idd its ultimately the pase that decides everything. Tho i will say if cms were repeatable and harder for their intented playerbase then that would at least make the scene more engaged and optimistic.

    Alot of ppl found the last 2 raid cms fairly disapointing compaired to cmw5 and alot more have complained about the lack of replaybility on the cms.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sapphire.3609 said:
    Removing the downstate would be like removing an important part of combat in this game, and would make certain encounters unnecessarily challenging, even for people that are already experienced at them (e.g. Qadim 1.0 CM, as seen in the ERP).

    Keep in mind these guilds were under a number of rules, 9 ppl, cms, no downstate, speedrun versus another guild etc. They usually go for more challenge on the content through lowmanning so for alot of them this was likely a new experience.

    I think its fair to assume just like for some it was originally a new and very challenging experience trying to lowman bosses that trying to kill bosses without downstate was also a new one.

    Do note also this is a very VERY diff experience from what players not competing a raid tourney with a prize of 5k $, 340k gold and 34k gems will have, simply the stress the participants were under would be enough to make the whole thing more challenging and stressful than it would prpb be for normal guilds.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Apparently the participants really liked the no downstate rule

    Yes, i'm sure adjusting content just for the level of those groups would go perfectly fine.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Apparently the participants really liked the no downstate rule

    Yes, i'm sure adjusting content just for the level of those groups would go perfectly fine.

    His ideas are kind of funny, right? Haven't been entertaining and posting here since weeks. :)

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Apparently the participants really liked the no downstate rule

    Yes, i'm sure adjusting content just for the level of those groups would go perfectly fine.

    What makes you think that adding no downstate/making cms harder in general would be abjusting the content to the best groups in the game?

    Not saying you are wrong or anything but these are ppl who have lowmanned raids for a while in cases with less than 5 ppl yet this was rather new to them as an aproach to the cms as it would be for anyone.

    Is no downstate what you expect only the best guild in the world will be able to clear? How so?

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 27, 2019

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Apparently the participants really liked the no downstate rule

    Yes, i'm sure adjusting content just for the level of those groups would go perfectly fine.

    What makes you think that adding no downstate/making cms harder in general would be abjusting the content to the best groups in the game?

    Not saying you are wrong or anything but these are ppl who have lowmanned raids for a while in cases with less than 5 ppl yet this was rather new to them as an aproach to the cms as it would be for anyone.

    Is no downstate what you expect only the best guild in the world will be able to clear? How so?

    Well, you were the one that brought up assumed likes and dislikes of ERP participants as the argument, not me. As i see it, even if they really all like it as a permanent mechanic (and not just a feature of one specific tournament) - which i am not as sure of as you seem to be - it still isn't an argument, because it's not them the content needs to be balanced for.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Apparently the participants really liked the no downstate rule

    Yes, i'm sure adjusting content just for the level of those groups would go perfectly fine.

    What makes you think that adding no downstate/making cms harder in general would be abjusting the content to the best groups in the game?

    Not saying you are wrong or anything but these are ppl who have lowmanned raids for a while in cases with less than 5 ppl yet this was rather new to them as an aproach to the cms as it would be for anyone.

    Is no downstate what you expect only the best guild in the world will be able to clear? How so?

    Well, you were the one that brought up assumed likes and dislikes of ERP participants as the argument, not me. As i see it, even if they really all like it as a permanent mechanic (and not just a feature of one specific tournament) - which i am not as sure of as you seem to be - it still isn't an argument, because it's not them the content needs to be balanced for.

    This.

    I think the enjoyment came from the increased challenge and the novelity of this approach. It would wear off incredibly fast.

    Also last I checked: CMs are run 1nce and then never again by the vast majority of the already super niche raid community. Now I'm not opposed to more difficult CMs (so raid sellers can make even more gold...) but let's realize that this would have nearly no effect on the game mode or player retention. In short: there is way mroe important issues to tackle atm.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Apparently the participants really liked the no downstate rule

    Yes, i'm sure adjusting content just for the level of those groups would go perfectly fine.

    What makes you think that adding no downstate/making cms harder in general would be abjusting the content to the best groups in the game?

    Not saying you are wrong or anything but these are ppl who have lowmanned raids for a while in cases with less than 5 ppl yet this was rather new to them as an aproach to the cms as it would be for anyone.

    Is no downstate what you expect only the best guild in the world will be able to clear? How so?

    Well, you were the one that brought up assumed likes and dislikes of ERP participants as the argument, not me. As i see it, even if they really all like it as a permanent mechanic (and not just a feature of one specific tournament) - which i am not as sure of as you seem to be - it still isn't an argument, because it's not them the content needs to be balanced for.

    This.

    I think the enjoyment came from the increased challenge and the novelity of this approach. It would wear off incredibly fast.

    That happens to content regardless, its the innitial experience that hooks a player on not to the content they are doing.

    Also last I checked: CMs are run 1nce and then never again by the vast majority of the already super niche raid community. Now I'm not opposed to more difficult CMs (so raid sellers can make even more gold...) but let's realize that this would have nearly no effect on the game mode or player retention. In short: there is way mroe important issues to tackle atm.

    To an extend i agree, a more importand issue would also he making them replayable so every week players can do content that suits them a little bit better.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 27, 2019

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Apparently the participants really liked the no downstate rule

    Yes, i'm sure adjusting content just for the level of those groups would go perfectly fine.

    What makes you think that adding no downstate/making cms harder in general would be abjusting the content to the best groups in the game?

    Not saying you are wrong or anything but these are ppl who have lowmanned raids for a while in cases with less than 5 ppl yet this was rather new to them as an aproach to the cms as it would be for anyone.

    Is no downstate what you expect only the best guild in the world will be able to clear? How so?

    Well, you were the one that brought up assumed likes and dislikes of ERP participants as the argument, not me. As i see it, even if they really all like it as a permanent mechanic (and not just a feature of one specific tournament) - which i am not as sure of as you seem to be - it still isn't an argument, because it's not them the content needs to be balanced for.

    I mean, teapot said so that in talks he had with participants that they enjoyed it.

    But again, i dont think putting a no downstate would be considered balancing around them, yes it would make cms harder but thats been a general complain, to cater to the top of the top cms would likely need to be far harder than that.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Apparently the participants really liked the no downstate rule

    Yes, i'm sure adjusting content just for the level of those groups would go perfectly fine.

    What makes you think that adding no downstate/making cms harder in general would be abjusting the content to the best groups in the game?

    Not saying you are wrong or anything but these are ppl who have lowmanned raids for a while in cases with less than 5 ppl yet this was rather new to them as an aproach to the cms as it would be for anyone.

    Is no downstate what you expect only the best guild in the world will be able to clear? How so?

    Well, you were the one that brought up assumed likes and dislikes of ERP participants as the argument, not me. As i see it, even if they really all like it as a permanent mechanic (and not just a feature of one specific tournament) - which i am not as sure of as you seem to be - it still isn't an argument, because it's not them the content needs to be balanced for.

    This.

    I think the enjoyment came from the increased challenge and the novelity of this approach. It would wear off incredibly fast.

    That happens to content regardless, its the innitial experience that hooks a player on not to the content they are doing.

    CMs are no where near the initial experience for raids, so again a moot point. They are also the least done content even among the niche content. Right now, releasing more raid wings without CMs would be more beneficial to the game mode than doctoring around on existing CMs. Not to mention making CMs ever more elite.

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Also last I checked: CMs are run 1nce and then never again by the vast majority of the already super niche raid community. Now I'm not opposed to more difficult CMs (so raid sellers can make even more gold...) but let's realize that this would have nearly no effect on the game mode or player retention. In short: there is way mroe important issues to tackle atm.

    To an extend i agree, a more importand issue would also he making them replayable so every week players can do content that suits them a little bit better.

    Making them replayable would be the currently only important issue as far as CMs are concerned, everything else is absolutely not important.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 27, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Apparently the participants really liked the no downstate rule

    Yes, i'm sure adjusting content just for the level of those groups would go perfectly fine.

    What makes you think that adding no downstate/making cms harder in general would be abjusting the content to the best groups in the game?

    Not saying you are wrong or anything but these are ppl who have lowmanned raids for a while in cases with less than 5 ppl yet this was rather new to them as an aproach to the cms as it would be for anyone.

    Is no downstate what you expect only the best guild in the world will be able to clear? How so?

    Well, you were the one that brought up assumed likes and dislikes of ERP participants as the argument, not me. As i see it, even if they really all like it as a permanent mechanic (and not just a feature of one specific tournament) - which i am not as sure of as you seem to be - it still isn't an argument, because it's not them the content needs to be balanced for.

    This.

    I think the enjoyment came from the increased challenge and the novelity of this approach. It would wear off incredibly fast.

    That happens to content regardless, its the innitial experience that hooks a player on not to the content they are doing.

    CMs are no where near the initial experience for raids, so again a moot point.

    The innitial cm experience.

    They are also the least done content even among the niche content.

    They are also the least replayable.

    Right now, releasing more raid wings without CMs would be more beneficial to the game mode than doctoring around on existing CMs. Not to mention making CMs even more elite.

    I dont expect them to over go back and update old content, like they didnt go bacj to add cms to w1-w3. The goal is for players to see the content which dificulty doesnt necessarily matter just that its experience and hopefully replayed by a portion of the community.

    Aspirational content is good for the game, new ppl looking into gw2 will see pvp montages, wvw skirmishes and engame pve content, Abandoning the cms in order to get out normal raids and making said raids even easier on top of that will take away said aspirational goals for ppl. If a raid will take only 2 or 3 wipes to beat with nothing else to look forward to what should players do?

    Imo ff14 has realised that you can make one dificulty to please everyone as well as that many dificulties will only bloat each update unecessarily. Moving from one dificulty to the other is important but not important enough to compromise the experience of either group. Floor needs to be lower and the ceiling higher when it comes to the 2 dificulty modes for raids.

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Also last I checked: CMs are run 1nce and then never again by the vast majority of the already super niche raid community. Now I'm not opposed to more difficult CMs (so raid sellers can make even more gold...) but let's realize that this would have nearly no effect on the game mode or player retention. In short: there is way mroe important issues to tackle atm.

    To an extend i agree, a more importand issue would also he making them replayable so every week players can do content that suits them a little bit better.

    Making them replayable would be the currently only important issue as far as CMs are concerned, everything else is absolutely not important.

    I think its importand for cms to rovide the necessary challenge, outside of replayability imo thats another big issue with them.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 27, 2019

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Apparently the participants really liked the no downstate rule

    Yes, i'm sure adjusting content just for the level of those groups would go perfectly fine.

    What makes you think that adding no downstate/making cms harder in general would be abjusting the content to the best groups in the game?

    Not saying you are wrong or anything but these are ppl who have lowmanned raids for a while in cases with less than 5 ppl yet this was rather new to them as an aproach to the cms as it would be for anyone.

    Is no downstate what you expect only the best guild in the world will be able to clear? How so?

    Well, you were the one that brought up assumed likes and dislikes of ERP participants as the argument, not me. As i see it, even if they really all like it as a permanent mechanic (and not just a feature of one specific tournament) - which i am not as sure of as you seem to be - it still isn't an argument, because it's not them the content needs to be balanced for.

    This.

    I think the enjoyment came from the increased challenge and the novelity of this approach. It would wear off incredibly fast.

    That happens to content regardless, its the innitial experience that hooks a player on not to the content they are doing.

    CMs are no where near the initial experience for raids, so again a moot point.

    The innitial cm experience.

    Which according to sell guilds is purchased close to 40-60% of all players who have the achievements (estimating that close to 2/3 of all people having DHuum CM have bought it).

    People who do CMs are already avid raider. It's not content which needs attention right now.

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    They are also the least done content even among the niche content.

    They are also the least replayable.

    Which is the only issue with CMs.

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Right now, releasing more raid wings without CMs would be more beneficial to the game mode than doctoring around on existing CMs. Not to mention making CMs even more elite.

    I dont expect them to over go back and update old content, like they didnt go bacj to add cms to w1-w3. The goal is for players to see the content which dificulty doesnt necessarily matter just that its experience and hopefully replayed by a portion of the community.

    Aspirational content is good for the game, new ppl looking into gw2 will see pvp montages, wvw skirmishes and engame pve content, Abandoning the cms in order to get out normal raids and making said raids even easier on top of that will take away said aspirational goals for ppl. If a raid will take only 2 or 3 wipes to beat with nothing else to look forward to what should players do?

    Imo ff14 has realised that you can make one dificulty to please everyone as well as that many dificulties will only bloat each update unecessarily. Moving from one dificulty to the other is important but not important enough to compromise the experience of either group. Floor needs to be lower and the ceiling higher when it comes to the 2 dificulty modes for raids.

    So let's remove CMs in future raids and make more normal raids. Isn't that what I said?

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    So let's remove CMs in future raids and make more normal raids. Isn't that what I said?

    Dont think it works like that.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Imo ff14 has realised that you can make one dificulty to please everyone as well as that many dificulties will only bloat each update unecessarily.

    What did FF XIV do to make you think that? Because that's not the feel i get from them at all.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Imo ff14 has realised that you can make one dificulty to please everyone as well as that many dificulties will only bloat each update unecessarily.

    What did FF XIV do to make you think that? Because that's not the feel i get from them at all.

    kitten, typo i meant can't make one dificulty.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zealex.9410 said:
    kitten, typo i meant can't make one dificulty.

    May I ask if Raids in FFXIV are an integral part of the story, the leveling and the gearing process or a completely optional activity?

  • Glider.5792Glider.5792 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 27, 2019

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    kitten, typo i meant can't make one dificulty.

    May I ask if Raids in FFXIV are an integral part of the story, the leveling and the gearing process or a completely optional activity?

    I recently just started playing it, finished base game (ARR) yesterday. From what i encountered, there are:

    • dungeons (4 man)
    • trials (8 man boss/raid?)
    • alliance raids (3 x 8 man aka 24 man raids)

    You encounter the dungeons and trials as parts of the main story, the alliance raids which i did were a part of a side story. Harder/hardest difficulties are optional i belive. Sooo, no, not realy optional.
    Edit: Game does an amazing job actualy teaching you how to play, unlike here >.>

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeFWMeskOJhk8N-SvOFCJXA
    Fractal speed kills, raids, Black Lion Chest Openings, random.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    kitten, typo i meant can't make one dificulty.

    May I ask if Raids in FFXIV are an integral part of the story, the leveling and the gearing process or a completely optional activity?

    The game has a gear threadmill but its diff from wow, catch up is very fast and easy and you can reach bis gear very fast.

    The gear from what i understand isnt necessary from the raids to be relevant to the story. Raids specifically are strictly endgame content and dont really play any part during leveling.

    They do have trials and all the big moments in story are usually trials which are 1 boss encounters with 8 ppl, they have normal and extreme versions.

    You can very comfortably experience it all tho the normal encounters are very easy.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Glider.5792 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    kitten, typo i meant can't make one dificulty.

    May I ask if Raids in FFXIV are an integral part of the story, the leveling and the gearing process or a completely optional activity?

    I recently just started playing it, finished base game (ARR) yesterday. From what i encountered, there are:

    • dungeons (4 man)
    • trials (8 man boss/raid?)
    • alliance raids (3 x 8 man aka 24 man raids)

    You encounter the dungeons and trials as parts of the main story, the alliance raids which i did were a part of a side story. Harder/hardest difficulties are optional i belive. Sooo, no, not realy optional.

    Trials and raids are diff and raids themselves split into multiple diff kinds of raids. Theres the 8 man raids and the 24man raids and i beliee both have 4 bosses per wing.

    The game tho embraces the multiplayer aspect of mmos and throws easy group content at you during your leveling process.

    Edit: Game does an amazing job actualy teaching you how to play, unlike here >.>

    This too, solid leveling experience.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    kitten, typo i meant can't make one dificulty.

    May I ask if Raids in FFXIV are an integral part of the story, the leveling and the gearing process or a completely optional activity?

    The game has a gear threadmill but its diff from wow, catch up is very fast and easy and you can reach bis gear very fast.

    Unless you are refering to WoW Classic, catching up in WoW isn't hard and hasn't been hard for a long time. It's also not relevant of how easy or hard gear progression is. There either is some, or there isn't. If there is, the entire gearing and reward system is different from having no gear progression.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 27, 2019

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    kitten, typo i meant can't make one dificulty.

    May I ask if Raids in FFXIV are an integral part of the story, the leveling and the gearing process or a completely optional activity?

    In a way, they are both.
    They are not part of the main storyline - more of the side stories, although at least some of them are quite important for their lore (for example the alliance raid for A Realm Reborn - the Crystal Tower - is something Square highly encouraged players to do before the last expac, as it contains quite a number of lore tidbits important for parts of the Shadowbringers storyline).

    The storyline does include trials (basically, single boss fights) and they are usually very important parts of the story. That's the normal version however, the extremes are optional. There are also trials (both normal and extremes) that are fully optional and not tied directly to main story.

    As far as the gearing goes, each raid introduces new gear tier that is slightly better than the previous one, but they are not the only source of new gear, and that gear is eventually going to be replaced by something you can buy with currency obtained by doing normal instanced content.

    For example, as of now:
    Ilevel 430 armor and weapon - level 80 class gear, that you can access just by having a level 80 character and completing the base shadowbringers story (well, actually you get it a few steps before the final step of the expac story)
    ilevel 430 trinkets - drop from level 80 dungeons
    ilevel 440 gear - bought for tomestones of goetia, currency you receive from doing duty roulettes as a level 80 character
    ilevel 450 weapons and trinkets - obtained from expert versions of level 80 trials (weapons from one trial, trinkets from another)
    ilevel 450 armor and trinkets - obtained from normal version of the first wing of level 80 8-man raid (Eden). The amount of gear tokens you can get from that wing is capped (one token per boss per week, so 4 tokens in total. gear costs, depending on slot, from 1 to 4 tokens per piece). Additionally from the last boss of the wing you get one token (per week) for a ilevel 460 weapon (you need 7 to buy the weapon)
    ilevel 450 gear - obtained from crafting
    ilevel 460 gear - bought for tomestones of phantasmagoria. Similar to goetia, currency you get from doing some duty roulettes as a level 80 character. Unlike with goetia, the amount you can get each week is capped. Notice, that the weapon requires not only tomestones, but also 7 tokens from the raid i mentioned before.
    That gear can be augmented to ilevel 470, using tokens obtained from savage version of Eden raid.
    ilevel 470 armor and trinkets (different that the augmented gear mentioned above) - obtained from the savage version of the Eden raid (again, the amount of drops is capped weekly)
    Notice, that there's a first wing of an level 80 alliance (24-man) raid incoming, that both normal and alliance raids are going to have 3 wings each (each with better gear), and there will be one more tier of tomestone currency you will be obtaining from duty roulettes, and that all the weekly caps on tomestones and drops are going to eventually be removed. Additionally, as soon as the next expac hits, you will be able to buy the best gear for tomestones of poetics (the levelling gear currency, one you start obtaining from duty roulettes as soon as you hit level 50)

    As you can see, raids are important part of the gearing process if you insist on always having the best gear, but they become far less so if you're not in a hurry.

    For example, i don't play savages and thus don't have gear from them, but i don't feel like i am losing out by that.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    kitten, typo i meant can't make one dificulty.

    May I ask if Raids in FFXIV are an integral part of the story, the leveling and the gearing process or a completely optional activity?

    In a way, they are both.
    They are not part of the main storyline - more of the side stories, although at least some of them are quite important for their lore (for example the alliance raid for A Realm Reborn - the Crystal Tower - is something Square highly encouraged players to do before the last expac, as it contains quite a number of lore tidbits important for parts of the Shadowbringers storyline).

    The storyline does include trials (basically, single boss fights) and they are usually very important parts of the story. That's the normal version however, the extremes are optional. There are also trials (both normal and extremes) that are fully optional and not tied directly to main story.

    As far as the gearing goes, each raid introduces new gear tier that is slightly better than the previous one, but they are not the only source of new gear, and that gear is eventually going to be replaced by something you can buy with currency obtained by doing normal instanced content.

    For example, as of now:
    Ilevel 430 armor and weapon - level 80 class gear, that you can access just by having a level 80 character and completing the base shadowbringers story (well, actually you get it a few steps before the final step of the expac story)
    ilevel 430 trinkets - drop from level 80 dungeons
    ilevel 440 gear - bought for tomestones of goetia, currency you receive from doing duty roulettes as a level 80 character
    ilevel 450 weapons and trinkets - obtained from expert versions of level 80 trials (weapons from one trial, trinkets from another)
    ilevel 450 armor and trinkets - obtained from normal version of the first wing of level 80 8-man raid (Eden). The amount of gear tokens you can get from that wing is capped (one token per boss per week, so 4 tokens in total. gear costs, depending on slot, from 1 to 4 tokens per piece). Additionally from the last boss of the wing you get one token (per week) for a ilevel 460 weapon (you need 7 to buy the weapon)
    ilevel 450 gear - obtained from crafting
    ilevel 460 gear - bought for tomestones of phantasmagoria. Similar to goetia, currency you get from doing some duty roulettes as a level 80 character. Unlike with goetia, the amount you can get each week is capped. Notice, that the weapon requires not only tomestones, but also 7 tokens from the raid i mentioned before.
    That gear can be augmented to ilevel 470, using tokens obtained from savage version of Eden raid.
    ilevel 470 armor and trinkets (different that the augmented gear mentioned above) - obtained from the savage version of the Eden raid (again, the amount of drops is capped weekly)
    Notice, that there's a first wing of an level 80 alliance (24-man) raid incoming, that both normal and alliance raids are going to have 3 wings each (each with better gear), and there will be one more tier of tomestone currency you will be obtaining from duty roulettes, and that all the weekly caps on tomestones and drops are going to eventually be removed. Additionally, as soon as the next expac hits, you will be able to buy the best gear for tomestones of poetics (the levelling gear currency, one you start obtaining from duty roulettes as soon as you hit level 50)

    As you can see, raids are important part of the gearing process if you insist on always having the best gear, but they become far less so if you're not in a hurry.

    For example, i don't play savages and thus don't have gear from them, but i don't feel like i am losing out by that.

    Havent followed ultimates myself at all outside of watching guilds doing progression on them, what the rewards for those was it glamour, title, or smth else?

    afaik its not straight up gear with ilvl.

    Btw what datacenter are you on?

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Havent followed ultimates myself at all outside of watching guilds doing progression on them, what the rewards for those was it glamour, title, or smth else?

    Glamour.
    Weapon's Refrain, for example, gives Ultima weapons. At ilevel 375 they were 5 ilevels higher than the highest level 70 gear available when it was released (which is minor enough that other players would not complain), but by the time the whole Stormblood cycle ended, the highest ilevel available for level 70 was 400 for upgraded tomestone gear and 405 from last Omega (Savage) wing.
    Bahamut Ultimate rewards Ultimate Dreadwyrm weapons, that are similar, but (since they were released earlier in the cycle) are at only ilevel 345

    afaik its not straight up gear with ilvl.

    Technically it is, but as far as gear go it became obsoleted by newer gear within few months from release. So, basically, glamour.
    I'm not sure about titles, although i wouldn't be surprised if there was one.

    Btw what datacenter are you on?

    Cerberus (Chaos)

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 29, 2019

    Make an already hard to access game mode for most players even harder ... makes sense.

    I mean, I get that what is labelled hard isn't for some people, but I think this isn't the direction that makes sense for the majority of the people that play this game. Put it this way ... if Anet had to choose to make a change to the game to serve a few or many ... from a business perspective that choice is obvious. It might be anecdotal, but there seems to be way more concern for making easier raid options for the players than harder ones.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Make an already hard to access game mode for most players even harder ... makes sense.

    I mean, I get that what is labelled hard isn't for some people, but I think this isn't the direction that makes sense for the majority of the people that play this game. Put it this way ... if Anet had to choose to make a change to the game to serve a few or many ... from a business perspective that choice is obvious. It might be anecdotal, but there seems to be way more concern for making easier raid options for the players than harder ones.

    This suggestion was specifically made for cm, for all i care nm could be made even easier in the process. When it comes to ppl complaining about t4s being too hard forum users are quick to let them know that they can go down tiers if it is too hard for them.

    Same rule aplies here, diferent dificulties serve to keep diff kinds of ppl busy.

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭

    I hate this idea and oppose it every time I see it. It's ok as 3 day event in wvw, but not as a permanent thing. Its a bad way to create difficulty, because it is just turning off game systems rather than making things more difficult. Classes are designed and balanced with the assumption that downstate exists. There are many traits, and skills that would suddenly become totally obsolete.

    There was once a fractal instability called antielitism. If you used your elite skill, you died. That was all it did. All it did was turn off a part of the game. It was really stupid, however technically it was slightly more difficult than not having it. Similarly, I think your idea creates difficulty in a bad way.

    In particular, by creating difficulty in a manner which ignores how the game way balanced. For example, Anet balances necro dps to be low because of its large health pool (max hp + either shroud or barrier). However, in a world where downstate doesn't exist, I would actually argue condi scourge is insanely overpowered considering how much more risk there is in running a condi weaver.

    I don't see many people saying dhuum cm is too easy. Its a great encounter that didn't have to resort to cheap tricks like turning off downstate. Instead, it forces you to split your attention, with several punishing mechanics. If we want more difficulty in raids, I think this is a better way to do it.

    So, how might this look? Say we wanted to make a vale guardian challenge mote. Rather than removing downstate, I would say, crank up the bullet hell aspect of the encounter. The red orbs (seekers) and the white orbs are present in normal mode, but mostly in normal mode you ignore the white orbs. Something where you have to pay attention to the white orbs would allow for interesting challenge mode (they would of course need to be made more visible). Or, maybe just ramp up the red orb difficulty. Triple their numbers, make them immune to cc, make them move much faster, make them hit harder (I wouldn't say insta-down, it is a bullet hell after all) and rather than always move towards the players, make them move randomly through the arena bouncing off the walls. Also don't let them despawn, but also don't let them spawn. Just a constant number throughout the fight. The point would be to create a bullet hell situation on top of the regular encounter.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Make an already hard to access game mode for most players even harder ... makes sense.

    I mean, I get that what is labelled hard isn't for some people, but I think this isn't the direction that makes sense for the majority of the people that play this game. Put it this way ... if Anet had to choose to make a change to the game to serve a few or many ... from a business perspective that choice is obvious. It might be anecdotal, but there seems to be way more concern for making easier raid options for the players than harder ones.

    This suggestion was specifically made for cm, for all i care nm could be made even easier in the process. When it comes to ppl complaining about t4s being too hard forum users are quick to let them know that they can go down tiers if it is too hard for them.

    Same rule aplies here, diferent dificulties serve to keep diff kinds of ppl busy.

    Yeah, but T4 are vastly easier than raids and don't even come close to CMs.

    The recommendation for making T4 feactals easier is, at least for me personally, based solely on the balance between difficulty versus reward perspective. If T4 fractals were less rewarding, I personally could care less if they are made harder or easier.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 29, 2019

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Make an already hard to access game mode for most players even harder ... makes sense.

    I mean, I get that what is labelled hard isn't for some people, but I think this isn't the direction that makes sense for the majority of the people that play this game. Put it this way ... if Anet had to choose to make a change to the game to serve a few or many ... from a business perspective that choice is obvious. It might be anecdotal, but there seems to be way more concern for making easier raid options for the players than harder ones.

    This suggestion was specifically made for cm, for all i care nm could be made even easier in the process. When it comes to ppl complaining about t4s being too hard forum users are quick to let them know that they can go down tiers if it is too hard for them.

    Same rule aplies here, diferent dificulties serve to keep diff kinds of ppl busy.

    Yeah, but T4 are vastly easier than raids and don't even come close to CMs.

    The objection to making T4 feactals easier is, at least for me personally, based solely on the balance between difficulty versus reward perspective. If T4 fractals were less rewarding, I personally could care less if they are made harder or easier.

  • Tiviana.2650Tiviana.2650 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 29, 2019

    When i came to gw2 downstate was a huge shock. I have always played games where you are alive or dead no inbetween. I dont mind downstate but i agree that its a clutch mechanic that can save the day. Maybe for CMs it would be a nice bit of challenge for the really good players to see if they can do it without the ability to rez downstates. But for normals naw that would be a bad deal. But yeah i like the idea of no downstate in CM.

    I saw the erp challenge, and i think that removing or putting the option in to remove downstate in cms would make the raids be very hard to master. Its a challenge that hard cores would love. And they need stuff to challenge them, im a casual i do a little raiding and i like it, i dont want to see raiding die out, its a great part of the game. My dps is abysmal and my guild carries me a lot, but i love raiding, and i think the really good players should have more challenge, and anet should keep up on adding raid content.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Make an already hard to access game mode for most players even harder ... makes sense.

    I mean, I get that what is labelled hard isn't for some people, but I think this isn't the direction that makes sense for the majority of the people that play this game. Put it this way ... if Anet had to choose to make a change to the game to serve a few or many ... from a business perspective that choice is obvious. It might be anecdotal, but there seems to be way more concern for making easier raid options for the players than harder ones.

    This suggestion was specifically made for cm, for all i care nm could be made even easier in the process. When it comes to ppl complaining about t4s being too hard forum users are quick to let them know that they can go down tiers if it is too hard for them.

    Same rule aplies here, diferent dificulties serve to keep diff kinds of ppl busy.

    I realize your suggestion was to take exclusive and make it more so. That still doesn't change the steps that any developer would have to take to justify doing it ... including how they would resource it to get it done vs. other more valuable efforts.

    I mean, if you just want to restrict yourself to a discussion about if there could be harder content for people that want harder, sure there COULD be. If you actually wanted to talk about if it should be done, then you have to think about all the things that Anet could do, not just the one you want.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Make an already hard to access game mode for most players even harder ... makes sense.

    I mean, I get that what is labelled hard isn't for some people, but I think this isn't the direction that makes sense for the majority of the people that play this game. Put it this way ... if Anet had to choose to make a change to the game to serve a few or many ... from a business perspective that choice is obvious. It might be anecdotal, but there seems to be way more concern for making easier raid options for the players than harder ones.

    This suggestion was specifically made for cm, for all i care nm could be made even easier in the process. When it comes to ppl complaining about t4s being too hard forum users are quick to let them know that they can go down tiers if it is too hard for them.

    Same rule aplies here, diferent dificulties serve to keep diff kinds of ppl busy.

    I realize your suggestion was to take exclusive and make it more so. That still doesn't change the steps that any developer would have to take to justify doing it ... including how they would resource it to get it done vs. other more valuable efforts.

    I mean, if you just want to restrict yourself to a discussion about if there could be harder content for people that want harder, sure there COULD be. If you actually wanted to talk about if it should be done, then you have to think about all the things that Anet could do, not just the one you want.

    Teapot was in talks with them about the downstate thing and they looked very open to the idea of doing it. To some extend that implies that the resources needed for it arent as much.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Make an already hard to access game mode for most players even harder ... makes sense.

    I mean, I get that what is labelled hard isn't for some people, but I think this isn't the direction that makes sense for the majority of the people that play this game. Put it this way ... if Anet had to choose to make a change to the game to serve a few or many ... from a business perspective that choice is obvious. It might be anecdotal, but there seems to be way more concern for making easier raid options for the players than harder ones.

    This suggestion was specifically made for cm, for all i care nm could be made even easier in the process. When it comes to ppl complaining about t4s being too hard forum users are quick to let them know that they can go down tiers if it is too hard for them.

    Same rule aplies here, diferent dificulties serve to keep diff kinds of ppl busy.

    I realize your suggestion was to take exclusive and make it more so. That still doesn't change the steps that any developer would have to take to justify doing it ... including how they would resource it to get it done vs. other more valuable efforts.

    I mean, if you just want to restrict yourself to a discussion about if there could be harder content for people that want harder, sure there COULD be. If you actually wanted to talk about if it should be done, then you have to think about all the things that Anet could do, not just the one you want.

    Teapot was in talks with them about the downstate thing and they looked very open to the idea of doing it. To some extend that implies that the resources needed for it arent as much.

    I don't think that says anything about resources; I mean, being open to an idea doesn't mean all the sudden they have people or time to get it done. When did this talk happen?

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • I hate that the most recent "cm" are more an "everything makes you one shot", and removing the downstate would be an even worse idea, anyway, it would cause a tunnel vision and some teamwork would be lost :/

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