How Scarlet did know Caithe secrets? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

How Scarlet did know Caithe secrets?

ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited August 30, 2019 in Lore

i watched LS1 movie, Scarlet "hologram" dialogue with Caithe suggests that she knew about the events we would come to see in Caithe's memoirs in LS2. how did she does this?

main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

Comments

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    He was such a grass......

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Everything is connected through the dream, including other races, so chances are Mordy knows too.

    Which could really screw up Moedy's death. Why link Trahearne when the elder dragon knows he could be a way in?

    And why just put a 'seed' in Trahearne when there seems to be more than one Pale Tree? This opens so many questions.

  • EmmetOtter.8542EmmetOtter.8542 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 1, 2019

    @serious.9730 said:
    Everything is connected through the dream, including other races, so chances are Mordy knows too.

    Which could really screw up Moedy's death. Why link Trahearne when the elder dragon knows he could be a way in?

    And why just put a 'seed' in Trahearne when there seems to be more than one Pale Tree? This opens so many questions.

    Simple. Mordremoth underestimated Trahearne and was overconfident in his own power.

    Also, Mordremoth wasn't connected to the Dream. It had to break the sylvari from the Pale Tree to put them under his own version of it. The only time non-sylvari are connected is when the Pale Tree brings them into it.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @serious.9730 said:
    Everything is connected through the dream, including other races, so chances are Mordy knows too.

    Which could really screw up Moedy's death. Why link Trahearne when the elder dragon knows he could be a way in?

    And why just put a 'seed' in Trahearne when there seems to be more than one Pale Tree? This opens so many questions.

    Um, where did you get the first bit?

    Only Sylvari are connected to the dream. Ventari has a presence, but he's the only non-sylvari present. All sylvari are linked to Mordremoth, it's just that Trahearne was the one Mordremoth placed the "seed" of his mind/soul into.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 3, 2019

    @EmmetOtter.8542 said:

    Also, Mordremoth wasn't connected to the Dream. It had to break the sylvari from the Pale Tree to put them under his own version of it. The only time non-sylvari are connected is when the Pale Tree brings them into it.

    According to the final instance, anyway, Mordremoth was. "Its strongest attacks come from its mind, from the Dream." "Yes...strike at the dragon's mind through the Dream. It can work." "If I concentrate, I can open a path into the Dream...into Mordremoth's mind." It's... one of the unexplained bits people have been miffed about since HoT.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • @serious.9730 said:
    Everything is connected through the dream, including other races, so chances are Mordy knows too.
    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    Only Sylvari are connected to the dream. Ventari has a presence, but he's the only non-sylvari present. All sylvari are linked to Mordremoth, it's just that Trahearne was the one Mordremoth placed the "seed" of his mind/soul into.

    The only things known to be connected to the Dream are:

    • The Pale Tree
    • Mordremoth
    • Shadow of the Dragon
    • The Pale Tree's sylvari
    • White Stag

    Nothing else has been confirmed (or implied, tbh) to be connected to the Dream. But they haven't been denied to be either - though given descriptions of sylvari interactions with the Dream, others would know if they're connected to the Dream or not.

    Ventari's presence is just a memory of him, no different than the risen, asura, skritt, and golem that can be seen in the sylvari tutorial.

    @serious.9730 said:
    Which could really screw up Moedy's death. Why link Trahearne when the elder dragon knows he could be a way in?

    And why just put a 'seed' in Trahearne when there seems to be more than one Pale Tree? This opens so many questions.

    Mordremoth was linked to all sylvari, technically speaking, as that was how he got to convert/brainwash them into becoming Mordrem Guard.

    As for why put the mind seed in Trahearne instead of another minion - hard to say, but it could be due to the literal physical connection to Mordremoth's vines going on.

    @EmmetOtter.8542 said:
    Also, Mordremoth wasn't connected to the Dream. It had to break the sylvari from the Pale Tree to put them under his own version of it. The only time non-sylvari are connected is when the Pale Tree brings them into it.

    It was brought up several times over that the way Mordremoth sent his call was via the Dream. He didn't create his own version of it, but rather hijacked it and the methods the Dream and Nightmare use to send Wyld Hunts and Dark Hunts (respectively), which was why some of his whispers felt like Wyld Hunts (e.g., Caithe).

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2019

    Hm, however if Mordremoth knew that Caithe knew about him from the Dream - then why didn't other sylvari also know this?
    How could this secret even stay secret for 20+ years when both Wynne and Caithe were connected to the Dream anyway? If they somehow managed to keep this from the Dream, then Mordremoth couldn't have known it from the Dream. If they couldn't, it wouldn't have been very secret at all.

    ... Maybe Scarlet was bluffing?

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2019

    We know that the information was in the Dream- it was how Wynne knew about the Mordremoth connection in the first place, after all, and Caithe says that the Dream also carried what happened between her and Wynne back to the Pale Tree.

    I can't remember the source, but I seem to recall that the Pale Tree was working (and able) to keep that information from getting through to other sylvari? Can anyone confirm?

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    He was such a grass......

    Did you just...

    XD

  • @Fenella.2634 said:
    Hm, however if Mordremoth knew that Caithe knew about him from the Dream - then why didn't other sylvari also know this?
    How could this secret even stay secret for 20+ years when both Wynne and Caithe were connected to the Dream anyway? If they somehow managed to keep this from the Dream, then Mordremoth couldn't have known it from the Dream. If they couldn't, it wouldn't have been very secret at all.

    ... Maybe Scarlet was bluffing?

    Sylvari don't learn everything the Dream knows, only bits and pieces. For whatever reason, the origin of the sylvari was told to Wynne by the Dream. Caithe learned from Wynne, and the Pale Tree knew from unclear reasons (either Wynne or the Dream or just knowing).

    The hundreds of other sylvari not knowing is, ultimately, pure luck. Or the Dream intentionally hid that knowledge, as it is implied the Dream and Nightmare are sapient intelligences that combat the Elder Dragons.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    He was such a grass......

    Did you just...

    XD

    Knew someone would twig eventually..

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Westenev.5289Westenev.5289 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2019

    @EmmetOtter.8542 said:

    @serious.9730 said:
    Everything is connected through the dream, including other races, so chances are Mordy knows too.

    Which could really screw up Moedy's death. Why link Trahearne when the elder dragon knows he could be a way in?

    And why just put a 'seed' in Trahearne when there seems to be more than one Pale Tree? This opens so many questions.

    Simple. Mordremoth underestimated Trahearne and was overconfident in his own power.

    Or maybe Mordremoth's death was part of it's grand plan (and why it left all the tools lying around to end it's life, like Traehearne and Caladbolg). A 500 iq thanatos gambit, worthy of the Elder Dragon of mind.

  • Palador.2170Palador.2170 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think that, in the end, Mordremoth had lost the ability to comprehend its own death. Yes, Zhaitan had died, but.... that was Zhaitan. He was kind of dead already, anyway. So he made a huge mistake or three.

    As to how Scarlet knew? I think she kept using Omad's machine past that first time, and got glimpses of other things. It's quite possible that, in her hands, it would allow her to view past events.

    Lip synching is just mime karaoke.

  • @Palador.2170 said:
    I think that, in the end, Mordremoth had lost the ability to comprehend its own death. Yes, Zhaitan had died, but.... that was Zhaitan. He was kind of dead already, anyway. So he made a huge mistake or three.

    That's my thought too. When you've evolved past the need of having a singular body and became an entity of mind alone, the idea of a body or two dying is like cutting your hair. Mordremoth often spewed that "I am this world" and "I am everywhere. I am all." etc. etc. which makes me think that he believed that his mind was effectively immortal, and even if a body or two died, it wouldn't matter.

    Overconfidence that made him overlook the fact that Caladbolg was a weapon of mind as well as physicality, and that it still had power even while broken.

    Still, it always seemed odd he only ever made one seed for his mind to go into. I would expect he made several - though perhaps that's what the "third canonical" Mouth killed was (based on Laranthir's dialogue, and other NPC dialogues, the Mouth of Mordremoth is killed three times - once before the Hearts and Minds mission, once during, and once after, when it's just nothing but instincts left). The Mordrem Spitfires resemble the Mouth of Mordremoth but "smaller" (same chin design, which is used for the Mouth, avatar, and shadowy face) and are even called "Lesser Mouths of Mordremoth" by Anet artists, so I've theorized that they're mindless scions of Mordremoth that function "spare Mouths" for Mordremoth to inhabit and grow should the one he occupies dies.

    All the same, I wouldn't be surprised if Mordremoth still lives, in a heavily injured, drained, and nigh-magicless form. No longer an Elder Dragon, but still a creature of mind inhabiting some lone body hidden away somewhere.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    He was such a grass......

    Did you just...

    XD

    Knew someone would twig eventually..

    XD

    Stop, all this laughing is leaving me a little bushed.

  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Overconfidence that made him overlook the fact that Caladbolg was a weapon of mind as well as physicality, and that it still had power even while broken.

    Sorry, a bit off topic, but do you really think Caladbolg actually did anything?
    It worked against Zhaitan's influence, because it contained purified dragon magic from the opposite spectrum.
    I think it was completely useless against Mordremoth, honestly. We would have needed a Tequatl weapon instead... Caladbolg appearently broke in the first major battle against mordrem it ever was involved in. Nothing special, really. I know what Trahearne said, but I think he either did not fully understand how Caladbolg actually worked, or he didn't want to admit it. To me, it looked like we just killed him with a broken piece of thorn there. :( No saving, no purification, just normal stabbing. Or whatever we did. Mordremoth was just weakened to a state where the mere death of his last host was enough to finally kill him, no matter the weapon.

    I mean, we have not heard anything from Trahearne's soul ever again. Not even in DF, which would have been a good opportunity. I think chances are very high we did not save him at all. Adding the Realm of the Lost to the equation, it gets even worse.

    Now, back to Caithe. :) If you say the Dream is sentient and can potentially keep specific info concealed, then how did it not conceal the knowledge that Caithe knew about Wynne's secret from Mordremoth? This should have been top priority secret-keeping. And if the Dream is not that specific, then as I said this whole 20-years-secret-keeping plot really does not make much sense. I'm sorry, I think this is just a major plot hole in general. The whole Wynne story is super problematic in the context of Caithe's character.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fenella.2634 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Overconfidence that made him overlook the fact that Caladbolg was a weapon of mind as well as physicality, and that it still had power even while broken.

    Sorry, a bit off topic, but do you really think Caladbolg actually did anything?
    It worked against Zhaitan's influence, because it contained purified dragon magic from the opposite spectrum.
    I think it was completely useless against Mordremoth, honestly. We would have needed a Tequatl weapon instead... Caladbolg appearently broke in the first major battle against mordrem it ever was involved in. Nothing special, really. I know what Trahearne said, but I think he either did not fully understand how Caladbolg actually worked, or he didn't want to admit it. To me, it looked like we just killed him with a broken piece of thorn there. :( No saving, no purification, just normal stabbing. Or whatever we did. Mordremoth was just weakened to a state where the mere death of his last host was enough to finally kill him, no matter the weapon.

    I mean, we have not heard anything from Trahearne's soul ever again. Not even in DF, which would have been a good opportunity. I think chances are very high we did not save him at all. Adding the Realm of the Lost to the equation, it gets even worse.

    Now, back to Caithe. :) If you say the Dream is sentient and can potentially keep specific info concealed, then how did it not conceal the knowledge that Caithe knew about Wynne's secret from Mordremoth? This should have been top priority secret-keeping. And if the Dream is not that specific, then as I said this whole 20-years-secret-keeping plot really does not make much sense. I'm sorry, I think this is just a major plot hole in general. The whole Wynne story is super problematic in the context of Caithe's character.

    i like a lot Trahearne's character and lore, but souls appearences of our "old friends' was over-used trope in ls4.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭

    @ugrakarma.9416 said:
    i like a lot Trahearne's character and lore, but souls appearences of our "old friends' was over-used trope in ls4.

    Normally I'd absolutely agree, but here I'm really concerned. Especially considering the Realm of the Lost with the Soul Eater at that time.
    I don't need a scene like with Eir, but a postcard would be nice, so to speak...

    But honestly, I doubt Caladbolg had any effect in that last scene of HoT. Wrong magic against Mordremoth. ... Or maybe I'm reading too much into that.

  • @Fenella.2634 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Overconfidence that made him overlook the fact that Caladbolg was a weapon of mind as well as physicality, and that it still had power even while broken.

    Sorry, a bit off topic, but do you really think Caladbolg actually did anything?
    It worked against Zhaitan's influence, because it contained purified dragon magic from the opposite spectrum.
    I think it was completely useless against Mordremoth, honestly. We would have needed a Tequatl weapon instead... Caladbolg appearently broke in the first major battle against mordrem it ever was involved in. Nothing special, really. I know what Trahearne said, but I think he either did not fully understand how Caladbolg actually worked, or he didn't want to admit it. To me, it looked like we just killed him with a broken piece of thorn there. :( No saving, no purification, just normal stabbing. Or whatever we did. Mordremoth was just weakened to a state where the mere death of his last host was enough to finally kill him, no matter the weapon.

    I mean, we have not heard anything from Trahearne's soul ever again. Not even in DF, which would have been a good opportunity. I think chances are very high we did not save him at all. Adding the Realm of the Lost to the equation, it gets even worse.

    Knight of the Thorn quest chain makes it clear that Caladbolg is connected directly to the Dream of Dreams - probably since it's a "living weapon" created from a piece of the Pale Tree. Trahearne even mentions "It was a gift from the Pale Tree. I am connected...bonded to it." and during Knight of the Thorn we witness that bond it made to Riannoc and Trahearne (but, seemingly, not Waine who held it far longer).

    And simply stabbing a sylvari doesn't cause them to explode.

    Now, back to Caithe. :) If you say the Dream is sentient and can potentially keep specific info concealed, then how did it not conceal the knowledge that Caithe knew about Wynne's secret from Mordremoth? This should have been top priority secret-keeping. And if the Dream is not that specific, then as I said this whole 20-years-secret-keeping plot really does not make much sense. I'm sorry, I think this is just a major plot hole in general. The whole Wynne story is super problematic in the context of Caithe's character.

    Because while the Dream is often talked of as if sentient, it still is not omnipotent nor omniscient. It's valid to make mistakes. Especially when the "mistake" comes in the form of an Elder Dragon finding a kernel of knowledge and spreading it to one individual.

    On top of that, it's possible that the Pale Tree was mentally connected to Mordremoth the way all dragon minions are to their Elder Dragon. It's heavily implied that the method of its purification/freedom was the Forgotten (as prior to Mawdrey, it is the only known method in existence, and despite frequent playerbase argument, Ventari did nothing magical and "the power of friendship" aka "nurture" is not strong enough to suddenly give something free will); and this is important because it'd mean the same method as used on Glint, and Kralkatorrik was capable of hunting her down without error thus implying the good-ol' minion-master hivemind was still intact.

    What this would mean, is that Mordremoth learned not from the Dream, but the Pale Tree. And that is how Mordremoth knew he needed to attack the Pale Tree to weaken the protection on the sylvari so that he could bombard them with his mass micromanaged telepathy.

    Of course, this is all theorycrafting, but based on what we know, it seems plausible.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Palador.2170Palador.2170 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think that Caladbolg was vital to killing off Mordremoth, actually.

    Using a normal sword would have been like swinging a baseball bat at a ghost, no effect. And most powers of the mind would have been something he could deal with somewhat, also allowing him to survive. But Caladbolg had a mental presence, if you will, but no mind and was from something purified of Mordremoth's influence. It didn't have any special anti-Mordremoth power, it was just something that could strike on the physical and mental planes at the same time.

    Lip synching is just mime karaoke.