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Icebrood Saga trailer

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  • Dragons are sentient creatures and I wonder what is the purpose of starting a war that you know you will lose?
    Aurene and the pact have enough strength to eliminate any dragon, I hope for a story that introduces something new :)

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 3, 2019

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    Dragons are sentient creatures and I wonder what is the purpose of starting a war that you know you will lose?
    Aurene and the pact have enough strength to eliminate any dragon, I hope for a story that introduces something new :)

    The point is Jormag cannot be killed. There's no dragon to replace it.

    So this all needs to be dealt with without actually killing Jormag.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Valmir.4590 said:

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    Where did that come from? I tried searching on youtube but found nothing yet.

    If you're still looking, it was at the very end of the stream. Handy link!

    Well, I'll be damned, but I didn't expect bangar to look and sound so... not brutally cartoonish. He's a lot more suave than what I expected.

    I know right? People compare him to Scar somewhat, but I was interested because he's kinda charismatic. Hardly the raging brute that was once implied of him.

  • Which is really great in my book. If ANet play it right, we could get an excellent antagonist/villain who doesn't have crazy powers or anything, just a viewpoint on life so different from us that we can't live together, and that one has to give up.

  • @ThatOddOne.4387 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    Dragons are sentient creatures and I wonder what is the purpose of starting a war that you know you will lose?
    Aurene and the pact have enough strength to eliminate any dragon, I hope for a story that introduces something new :)

    The point is Jormag cannot be killed. There's no dragon to replace it.

    So this all needs to be dealt with without actually killing Jormag.

    So I hope in a different story and not 5-6 episodes to look for a new catalyst for the power of the dragon XD

    Braham was determined to shoot down the dragon after enchanting Eir's LB, who knows if anything has changed since the last episode.

  • @hugo.4705 said:
    I'm more scarred of Deep Sea Dragon, the dialogue establishing that its minions are that big they can't fit within crucible of eternity aquarium intrigues me. If the minions are big, the dragon would be bigger. (I suppose), the Jormag representation in bitterfrost frontier can hint its size if respected. My guess is that Jormag has the size of that map. So a little bigger than zhaithan but still "small".


    (Yeah I assume that deep sea dragon is a turtle, seeing the vision of the all, it's either big quaggan or turtle)

    You do know that the dragon head you attributed to Jormag's just a statue of a Claw of Jormag, right? :P

    Though I imagine you do have the size accurate. Based on his tooth, Jormag must be about Kralk's size, maybe a bit smaller.

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    Dragons are sentient creatures and I wonder what is the purpose of starting a war that you know you will lose?
    Aurene and the pact have enough strength to eliminate any dragon, I hope for a story that introduces something new :)

    So far every ED plot has been different:

    • Zhaitan: "Unite the races to face the dragon."
    • Mordremoth: "The unification has broken, but we must still face the dragon."
    • Balthazar (Primordus/Jormag/Kralkatorrik): "If we kill a dragon, the world dies."
    • Kralkatorrik: "We must train our replacement dragon, so that we may face the dragon."
    • Jormag: "The dragon faces us, but we cannot kill it without a replacement or the world dies."

    Last one's just my guess for how they're going with Jormag in the most general of senses.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    • Jormag: "The dragon faces us, but we cannot kill it without a replacement or the world dies."

    Last one's just my guess for how they're going with Jormag in the most general of senses.

    This presuming Anet doesn't just go "Aurene is the prismatic dragon, which gives her the ability to mold all the dragon powers within her without going crazy/blowing up!"

  • @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    • Jormag: "The dragon faces us, but we cannot kill it without a replacement or the world dies."

    Last one's just my guess for how they're going with Jormag in the most general of senses.

    This presuming Anet doesn't just go "Aurene is the prismatic dragon, which gives her the ability to mold all the dragon powers within her without going crazy/blowing up!"

    While I am concerned about that given the magazine having Gorrik use the "Prismatic Elder Dragon" phrase that's been used by the fanbase on wild "Elder Dragon of all magical domains" - either as what Aurene will be, what the last ED alive would be, or of some fabricated "mega Elder Dragon" that's above the six Elder Dragons - the magazine also makes mention of this about the Icebrood Saga:

    We learned that the Elder Dragons - or at least the roles they play in the magical ecosystem - are essential to the long-term survival of life on Tyria. Unless replacements for the remaining Elder Dragons are found, no more can be killed.
    [...]
    They helped her bring Kralkatorrik down out of the sky and ended his life so Aurene could absorb his magic and take his place in the pantheon as the Elder Dragon of Light.

    https://s3.amazonaws.com/guildwars2.com_uploads/livingworldmagazine/icebroodsaga_magazine_EN/5-6/index.html

    Though I doubt they'd scrutinize that little side project of theirs, the summary of "the story so far and what's to come" has painted the picture that we do indeed need multiple replacements, and that Aurene only replaces Kralkatorrik despite having a hefty amount of Zhaitan and Mordremoth (esp. Mordremoth) magic in her.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Though I doubt they'd scrutinize that little side project of theirs, the summary of "the story so far and what's to come" has painted the picture that we do indeed need multiple replacements, and that Aurene only replaces Kralkatorrik despite having a hefty amount of Zhaitan and Mordremoth (esp. Mordremoth) magic in her.

    I still say we should get some big old magical conduits, jam them in the Pale Tree, and see if she can harness some of the draconic energy.

    Out of all the things we have encountered in GW2 thus far, she's the most obvious choice to replace Mordremoth, or any of the dragons really.

  • CETheLucid.3964CETheLucid.3964 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Though I doubt they'd scrutinize that little side project of theirs, the summary of "the story so far and what's to come" has painted the picture that we do indeed need multiple replacements, and that Aurene only replaces Kralkatorrik despite having a hefty amount of Zhaitan and Mordremoth (esp. Mordremoth) magic in her.

    I still say we should get some big old magical conduits, jam them in the Pale Tree, and see if she can harness some of the draconic energy.

    Out of all the things we have encountered in GW2 thus far, she's the most obvious choice to replace Mordremoth, or any of the dragons really.

    The thing that made Glint, Aurene, and Vlast special is they were related to Kralkatorrik directly. Glint was his daughter. Vlast and Aurene were his grandchildren. We don't really know where the Pale Tree stands in relation to Mordremoth.

    If the Pale Tree were the literal offspring of Mordremoth we'd have something to work with. If shes merely a purified Blighting Tree, we need to look elsewhere.

  • Tanith.5264Tanith.5264 Member ✭✭✭

    @CETheLucid.3964 said:

    If the Pale Tree were the literal offspring of Mordremoth we'd have something to work with. If shes merely a purified Blighting Tree, we need to look elsewhere.

    Last time I checked she was still collapsed in a heap on her chamber floor, so who knows? :)

  • @Tanith.5264 said:

    @CETheLucid.3964 said:

    If the Pale Tree were the literal offspring of Mordremoth we'd have something to work with. If shes merely a purified Blighting Tree, we need to look elsewhere.

    Last time I checked she was still collapsed in a heap on her chamber floor, so who knows? :)

    She gets better at the end of Knight of the Thorn.

    That said, I'm fairly sure she's been confirmed as a purified blighting tree, and the Tangled Depths meta confirms blighting trees as the gargantuan maguuma trees (most likely stonewood trees) being corrupted.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • CETheLucid.3964CETheLucid.3964 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tanith.5264 said:

    @CETheLucid.3964 said:

    If the Pale Tree were the literal offspring of Mordremoth we'd have something to work with. If shes merely a purified Blighting Tree, we need to look elsewhere.

    Last time I checked she was still collapsed in a heap on her chamber floor, so who knows? :)

    She gets better at the end of Knight of the Thorn.

    That said, I'm fairly sure she's been confirmed as a purified blighting tree, and the Tangled Depths meta confirms blighting trees as the gargantuan maguuma trees (most likely stonewood trees) being corrupted.

    It'd be nice to get some dev confirmation on that. It would pretty convenient to be able to replace Mordremoth with the Pale Tree and offer a new dimension to the sylvari in a new world. Avatars of a changing paradigm.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @CETheLucid.3964 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tanith.5264 said:

    @CETheLucid.3964 said:

    If the Pale Tree were the literal offspring of Mordremoth we'd have something to work with. If shes merely a purified Blighting Tree, we need to look elsewhere.

    Last time I checked she was still collapsed in a heap on her chamber floor, so who knows? :)

    She gets better at the end of Knight of the Thorn.

    That said, I'm fairly sure she's been confirmed as a purified blighting tree, and the Tangled Depths meta confirms blighting trees as the gargantuan maguuma trees (most likely stonewood trees) being corrupted.

    It'd be nice to get some dev confirmation on that. It would pretty convenient to be able to replace Mordremoth with the Pale Tree and offer a new dimension to the sylvari in a new world. Avatars of a changing paradigm.

    Maybe it would be another Aurene instead -- that is, instead of the PT growing something based on humans, grow something based on Aurene as a template, to become a baby jungle dragon? Would give the Exalted something to do, anyway.

  • CETheLucid.3964CETheLucid.3964 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 6, 2019

    @perilisk.1874 said:

    @CETheLucid.3964 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tanith.5264 said:

    @CETheLucid.3964 said:

    If the Pale Tree were the literal offspring of Mordremoth we'd have something to work with. If shes merely a purified Blighting Tree, we need to look elsewhere.

    Last time I checked she was still collapsed in a heap on her chamber floor, so who knows? :)

    She gets better at the end of Knight of the Thorn.

    That said, I'm fairly sure she's been confirmed as a purified blighting tree, and the Tangled Depths meta confirms blighting trees as the gargantuan maguuma trees (most likely stonewood trees) being corrupted.

    It'd be nice to get some dev confirmation on that. It would pretty convenient to be able to replace Mordremoth with the Pale Tree and offer a new dimension to the sylvari in a new world. Avatars of a changing paradigm.

    Maybe it would be another Aurene instead -- that is, instead of the PT growing something based on humans, grow something based on Aurene as a template, to become a baby jungle dragon? Would give the Exalted something to do, anyway.

    I was thinking it'd be the PT herself, big tree in Caledon Forest. Maybe she'd develop a smaller serpentine dragon of herself not too dissimilar from the Mouth of Mordremoth that'd eventually wrap around the PT and she'd slowly take over the vacant "body" that Mordremoth left behind which is the entire Maguuma more or less.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    • Jormag: "The dragon faces us, but we cannot kill it without a replacement or the world dies."

    Last one's just my guess for how they're going with Jormag in the most general of senses.

    This presuming Anet doesn't just go "Aurene is the prismatic dragon, which gives her the ability to mold all the dragon powers within her without going crazy/blowing up!"

    While I am concerned about that given the magazine having Gorrik use the "Prismatic Elder Dragon" phrase that's been used by the fanbase on wild "Elder Dragon of all magical domains" - either as what Aurene will be, what the last ED alive would be, or of some fabricated "mega Elder Dragon" that's above the six Elder Dragons - the magazine also makes mention of this about the Icebrood Saga:

    We learned that the Elder Dragons - or at least the roles they play in the magical ecosystem - are essential to the long-term survival of life on Tyria. Unless replacements for the remaining Elder Dragons are found, no more can be killed.
    [...]
    They helped her bring Kralkatorrik down out of the sky and ended his life so Aurene could absorb his magic and take his place in the pantheon as the Elder Dragon of Light.

    https://s3.amazonaws.com/guildwars2.com_uploads/livingworldmagazine/icebroodsaga_magazine_EN/5-6/index.html

    Though I doubt they'd scrutinize that little side project of theirs, the summary of "the story so far and what's to come" has painted the picture that we do indeed need multiple replacements, and that Aurene only replaces Kralkatorrik despite having a hefty amount of Zhaitan and Mordremoth (esp. Mordremoth) magic in her.

    Wait is that the name for the second domain? So Crystal and Light? I guess that explains how the sun aspect got lumped in with air magic, paragons accessed lighting and fire, and the guardian naturally developed. I presume Light contains anything the sun could produce; light, fire, weather, etc.

  • @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    • Jormag: "The dragon faces us, but we cannot kill it without a replacement or the world dies."

    Last one's just my guess for how they're going with Jormag in the most general of senses.

    This presuming Anet doesn't just go "Aurene is the prismatic dragon, which gives her the ability to mold all the dragon powers within her without going crazy/blowing up!"

    While I am concerned about that given the magazine having Gorrik use the "Prismatic Elder Dragon" phrase that's been used by the fanbase on wild "Elder Dragon of all magical domains" - either as what Aurene will be, what the last ED alive would be, or of some fabricated "mega Elder Dragon" that's above the six Elder Dragons - the magazine also makes mention of this about the Icebrood Saga:

    We learned that the Elder Dragons - or at least the roles they play in the magical ecosystem - are essential to the long-term survival of life on Tyria. Unless replacements for the remaining Elder Dragons are found, no more can be killed.
    [...]
    They helped her bring Kralkatorrik down out of the sky and ended his life so Aurene could absorb his magic and take his place in the pantheon as the Elder Dragon of Light.

    https://s3.amazonaws.com/guildwars2.com_uploads/livingworldmagazine/icebroodsaga_magazine_EN/5-6/index.html

    Though I doubt they'd scrutinize that little side project of theirs, the summary of "the story so far and what's to come" has painted the picture that we do indeed need multiple replacements, and that Aurene only replaces Kralkatorrik despite having a hefty amount of Zhaitan and Mordremoth (esp. Mordremoth) magic in her.

    Wait is that the name for the second domain? So Crystal and Light? I guess that explains how the sun aspect got lumped in with air magic, paragons accessed lighting and fire, and the guardian naturally developed. I presume Light contains anything the sun could produce; light, fire, weather, etc.

    No. Kralkatorrik's second domain according to the magazine is "Fury".

    Aurene is called solely "Elder Dragon of Light" (or "Prismatic Elder Dragon" as an alternative). She's not called the Elder Crystal Dragon. It's a bit weird, tbh, and gives the implication (to me) that she's an "Elder Dragon of all magical domains."

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 18, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    • Jormag: "The dragon faces us, but we cannot kill it without a replacement or the world dies."

    Last one's just my guess for how they're going with Jormag in the most general of senses.

    This presuming Anet doesn't just go "Aurene is the prismatic dragon, which gives her the ability to mold all the dragon powers within her without going crazy/blowing up!"

    While I am concerned about that given the magazine having Gorrik use the "Prismatic Elder Dragon" phrase that's been used by the fanbase on wild "Elder Dragon of all magical domains" - either as what Aurene will be, what the last ED alive would be, or of some fabricated "mega Elder Dragon" that's above the six Elder Dragons - the magazine also makes mention of this about the Icebrood Saga:

    We learned that the Elder Dragons - or at least the roles they play in the magical ecosystem - are essential to the long-term survival of life on Tyria. Unless replacements for the remaining Elder Dragons are found, no more can be killed.
    [...]
    They helped her bring Kralkatorrik down out of the sky and ended his life so Aurene could absorb his magic and take his place in the pantheon as the Elder Dragon of Light.

    https://s3.amazonaws.com/guildwars2.com_uploads/livingworldmagazine/icebroodsaga_magazine_EN/5-6/index.html

    Though I doubt they'd scrutinize that little side project of theirs, the summary of "the story so far and what's to come" has painted the picture that we do indeed need multiple replacements, and that Aurene only replaces Kralkatorrik despite having a hefty amount of Zhaitan and Mordremoth (esp. Mordremoth) magic in her.

    Wait is that the name for the second domain? So Crystal and Light? I guess that explains how the sun aspect got lumped in with air magic, paragons accessed lighting and fire, and the guardian naturally developed. I presume Light contains anything the sun could produce; light, fire, weather, etc.

    No. Kralkatorrik's second domain according to the magazine is "Fury".

    Aurene is called solely "Elder Dragon of Light" (or "Prismatic Elder Dragon" as an alternative). She's not called the Elder Crystal Dragon. It's a bit weird, tbh, and gives the implication (to me) that she's an "Elder Dragon of all magical domains."

    So I can't tell whether they are retconning or reinvoking the magic is like light idea. On one hand conflagration/persuasion/fury fulfill the concept of domains better than the previous spheres because they aren't singular concepts like ice or fire. On the other hand they don't mesh well with the idea of combining to make white light. Why would conflagration be distinct enough from fire to not be canceled by ice? Why does the sun fall under fury? They seem to be arbitrary enough to avoid having their interactions be comprehensible enough to affect the story. Effectively allowing Anet to drop that subplot.

    The best I can parse is Aurene has magic from so many spheres there are no other words that could link them. And so they used the light analogy, but left out the complicated interactions. I don't think this means she will absorb all spheres.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Aurene is called solely "Elder Dragon of Light" (or "Prismatic Elder Dragon" as an alternative). She's not called the Elder Crystal Dragon. It's a bit weird, tbh, and gives the implication (to me) that she's an "Elder Dragon of all magical domains."

    I think whatever the domain is includes a lot of interrelated things. Desert -> Sand -> Crystal [Crystal Balls -> Prophecy] -> Prisms -> Light -> Sunlight and Lightning -> Storms -> Wind. It's sort of an odd set in general, but the notion that her line's magic is tied to light is not really new, and I don't think in and of itself it suggests she has all domains.

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    I think “Prismatic” is just a more benign and fantastical way of calling her a crystal dragon, and the brief appearance that we saw she did look like a crystal prism refracting light into separate colors. I don’t think it’s weird she’s gained “light” as a domain what with Kormir inverting and dropping domains altogether. The second domain of the EDs seems more personal or intangible anyway. That might be more based off their personality.

    That being said they could use it figuratively too and say she can better separate and manage magic, but I hope they don’t abuse that to the point and allow her to replace all the EDs.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 18, 2019

    @perilisk.1874 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Aurene is called solely "Elder Dragon of Light" (or "Prismatic Elder Dragon" as an alternative). She's not called the Elder Crystal Dragon. It's a bit weird, tbh, and gives the implication (to me) that she's an "Elder Dragon of all magical domains."

    I think whatever the domain is includes a lot of interrelated things. Desert -> Sand -> Crystal [Crystal Balls -> Prophecy] -> Prisms -> Light -> Sunlight and Lightning -> Storms -> Wind. It's sort of an odd set in general, but the notion that her line's magic is tied to light is not really new, and I don't think in and of itself it suggests she has all domains.

    It is a reference to a quote from Taimi: "Magic as we know it is like white light, composed of all the different types of dragon magic." Aurene has taken in magic from most other Elder Dragons in the pantheon, either directly after their deaths, or indirectly at the deaths of Balthazar or Kralkatorrik.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭
    edited October 22, 2019

    My observations of and thoughts on the trailer are as follows:

    The elements are displayed
    1. The first scene is of a bio-diverse Tyria in which all of the elements are combined. The most prominent example of this life is an eagle (?), a creature aligned to air.
    2. The second scene depicts fire.
    3. The third scene depicts a kodan floating out to sea. All of the elements appear to be present, but the scene cuts to the horizon, so I'd hazard a guess that this scene is about time.
    4. The fourth scene depicts earth.
    5. The fifth scene depicts water.
    6. The sixth scene cuts back to air.
    7. The final scene invokes ice.

    Forms of death are displayed
    1. The first scene is of a bio-diverse Tyria in which all of the elements are combined, granting life.
    2. The second scene depicts death by fire.
    3. The third scene depicts death by aging (time).
    4. The fourth scene is a little harder to place, although it probably refers to death by other earthlings.
    5. The fifth scene depicts death by drowning (water).
    6. The fifth scene depicts death by asphyxiation at high altitude (air).
    7. The final scene depicts some kind of defiance to death, some way of resisting it through Jormag.

    Who is he addressing and what are the trials to which he refers?

    Remember, Aurene came back from the dead. Somehow, dragon-kind is tied up with the concept of death. Dragons hate mortals (a form of death). Kralkatorrik says that Elder Dragons fear nothing, not even death. There is something more to this than we presently accept or understand. Is Jormag offering the champion a way to save everyone else. Is he destined to win by the All? Destined to become the new god of water? Is Jormag offering him or her the opportunity to hold sway over an unclaimed element through which the champion can keep those he loves around him? Does each corrupted minion somehow become bound to the champion and join them in the afterlife, or remain with him forever in this life? Or maybe in the new Tyria roles will be reversed? Maybe minions will appear normal and the champion will appear horribly deformed?

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    Jormag has been confirmed to be talking to Bangar in the trailer.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭
    edited October 23, 2019

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    Jormag has been confirmed to be talking to Bangar in the trailer.

    Interesting. You know what? I think that Jormag is an air spirit, possibly the leader of some of the other dragons.

    That would make Jormàg the leader of Primordus, Mordremoth, Kralkatorrik and Zaithan?

    The speculation that Jormag is female may be worth looking into. What if Jormag is the parent of some of these other dragons? What if Jormag is Kralkatorrik's mother?

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 23, 2019

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    That would make Jormàg the leader of Primordus, Mordremoth, Kralkatorrik and Zaithan?

    The Elder Dragons have long been confirmed to not be allied, and that their minions will fight if they encounter one-another (rare as it is and not shown in-game except when under Subject Alpha's unifying command). They've also been confirmed to not have leaders (originally Primordus was thought - and asked if so - to be a leader of the Elder Dragons, this got debunked with a "they have no leader").

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    The speculation that Jormag is female may be worth looking into. What if Jormag is the parent of some of these other dragons? What if Jormag is Kralkatorrik's mother?

    Jormag is confirmed "non-binary", or to use original terminology, genderless. Neither male nor female. And this extends to all Elder Dragons - even Kralkatorrik. For the sake of continuing the discussion, I will refer to them as "high dragons" so as to include the six Elder Dragons' bloodlines.

    All use of male or female pronouns for the Elder Dragons and their kin is effectively superfluous. The only "high dragons" (beyond Kralkatorrik's "mother" line) to use such would be Glint, Aurene, and Vlast (but even Vlast used such only one time for himself, iirc).

    Despite having a male voice actor, unless I'm forgotten an obscure line, Mordremoth never calls itself male nor do any mordrem. And the same goes for Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik. The only icebrood to call Jormag male are the former Svanir, who are misogynists and thus untrustworthy in this regard.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭
    edited October 23, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    That would make Jormàg the leader of Primordus, Mordremoth, Kralkatorrik and Zaithan?

    The Elder Dragons have long been confirmed to not be allied, and that their minions will fight if they encounter one-another (rare as it is and not shown in-game except when under Subject Alpha's unifying command). They've also been confirmed to not have leaders (originally Primordus was thought - and asked if so - to be a leader of the Elder Dragons, this got debunked with a "they have no leader").

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    The speculation that Jormag is female may be worth looking into. What if Jormag is the parent of some of these other dragons? What if Jormag is Kralkatorrik's mother?

    Jormag is confirmed "non-binary", or to use original terminology, genderless. Neither male nor female. And this extends to all Elder Dragons - even Kralkatorrik. For the sake of continuing the discussion, I will refer to them as "high dragons" so as to include the six Elder Dragons' bloodlines.

    All use of male or female pronouns for the Elder Dragons and their kin is effectively superfluous. The only "high dragons" (beyond Kralkatorrik's "mother" line) to use such would be Glint, Aurene, and Vlast (but even Vlast used such only one time for himself, iirc).

    Despite having a male voice actor, unless I'm forgotten an obscure line, Mordremoth never calls itself male nor do any mordrem. And the same goes for Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik. The only icebrood to call Jormag male are the former Svanir, who are misogynists and thus untrustworthy in this regard.

    I am curious for your thoughts on Kralkatorrik's "Mother", Aurene's "Grandfather" and repeated reference to Kralk as "he". What are we to make of such things?

    You've brought up examples such as these, then seemingly dismissed them as irrelevant. I think what we really need from you, Konig, is an explanation or theory that helps us understand why you feel objective facts should be reinterpreted.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    The dragons only gender is the one they put on for themselves. I imagine much like many humans, they have certain persona's, possibly ones informed from the genders of mortal races. Mordremoth has no gender, which is to say non-binary but Mordromoth literally has no body for which there to be a gender, or at the least can have no more a gender then a jungle can have a gender. Aurene has chosen to identify as female, perhaps because she identifies with classical female traits such as nurturing and protectiveness, she does seem very defensively oriented. Jormag choosing to be non-Binary has a very obvious reason in my eyes, it's easier to persuade people when you can easily slip in and out of the void of their gender of choice to tempt them.

  • I don't understand why Pale Tree should be used to contain the power of mordremoth, excluding Balthazar the power of fallen dragons is passed on to other dragons, and now that power belongs to Aurene Jormag and Primordius, as is the same for the power of Zhaitan that Aurene got after the defeat of Kralkatorrik.
    Aurene currently has at her disposal all the powers of kralkatorrik, 2/3 of Mordremoth and those of Zhaitan and Balthazar, it is probable that she does not know all that she is able to do but does not seem to me to have problems in managing all this power alone ( at least for now), Aurene counts for 3 and is opposed to the other 3 dragons.

  • @Loesh.4697 said:
    The dragons only gender is the one they put on for themselves. I imagine much like many humans, they have certain persona's, possibly ones informed from the genders of mortal races. Mordremoth has no gender, which is to say non-binary but Mordromoth literally has no body for which there to be a gender, or at the least can have no more a gender then a jungle can have a gender. Aurene has chosen to identify as female, perhaps because she identifies with classical female traits such as nurturing and protectiveness, she does seem very defensively oriented. Jormag choosing to be non-Binary has a very obvious reason in my eyes, it's easier to persuade people when you can easily slip in and out of the void of their gender of choice to tempt them.

    Modremoth went after Glint's egg through Aerin. One of the HoT trailers - I forget which one - mentioned that Mordremoth was very interested in it. If dragons have no gender, merely the concept of gender, then we need to try to explain such details. I don't think "non-binary" cuts it.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 23, 2019

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    I don't understand why Pale Tree should be used to contain the power of mordremoth, excluding Balthazar the power of fallen dragons is passed on to other dragons, and now that power belongs to Aurene Jormag and Primordius, as is the same for the power of Zhaitan that Aurene got after the defeat of Kralkatorrik.
    Aurene currently has at her disposal all the powers of kralkatorrik, 2/3 of Mordremoth and those of Zhaitan and Balthazar, it is probable that she does not know all that she is able to do but does not seem to me to have problems in managing all this power alone ( at least for now), Aurene counts for 3 and is opposed to the other 3 dragons.

    It is heavily implied that if Aurene tried to go beyond her current stockpile she would go insane. If she is not slowly going insane already. We want to replace the other Elder Dragons because they keep killing people. But we also need Aurene to be healthy. For her to continue to take part she would need to unload all of this extra power. Having the Pale Tree take all of the Plant/Mind domain would theoretically allow Aurene to absorb some of the power within Jormag.

  • @Stephen.6312 said:
    I am curious for your thoughts on Kralkatorrik's "Mother", Aurene's "Grandfather" and repeated reference to Kralk as "he". What are we to make of such things?

    You've brought up examples such as these, then seemingly dismissed them as irrelevant. I think what we really need from you, Konig, is an explanation or theory that helps us understand why you feel objective facts should be reinterpreted.

    Aurene's use of grandfather seems largely done more for impact than anything else. Lines such as "Grandfather, look at me!" wouldn't be as impactful in the English language if they used gender neutral terminology (in this case, "Grandparent, look at me!"). There's also the interpretation that - except for Kralkatorrik's "mother" line - all uses of gender association for Kralkatorrik came from Glint and Aurene, who were communicating with mortals (or around them, in that case).

    The extent of Kralkatorrik's "mother" line is hard to place, because we literally just have one word to go off of and nothing else.

    I didn't really dismiss them, tbh, I just didn't wand to drag out the response since the main purpose of the response was "the Elder Dragons have no actual gender, any association of such is social-based, and Jormag uses gender neutral terms rather than male or female."

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    The dragons only gender is the one they put on for themselves. I imagine much like many humans, they have certain persona's, possibly ones informed from the genders of mortal races. Mordremoth has no gender, which is to say non-binary but Mordromoth literally has no body for which there to be a gender, or at the least can have no more a gender then a jungle can have a gender. Aurene has chosen to identify as female, perhaps because she identifies with classical female traits such as nurturing and protectiveness, she does seem very defensively oriented. Jormag choosing to be non-Binary has a very obvious reason in my eyes, it's easier to persuade people when you can easily slip in and out of the void of their gender of choice to tempt them.

    Mordremoth had a body. It might not have been its original body, but it was its core body for the past 10,000 years, and for all we know it could have been gendered, or not.

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    I don't understand why Pale Tree should be used to contain the power of mordremoth, excluding Balthazar the power of fallen dragons is passed on to other dragons, and now that power belongs to Aurene Jormag and Primordius, as is the same for the power of Zhaitan that Aurene got after the defeat of Kralkatorrik.
    Aurene currently has at her disposal all the powers of kralkatorrik, 2/3 of Mordremoth and those of Zhaitan and Balthazar, it is probable that she does not know all that she is able to do but does not seem to me to have problems in managing all this power alone ( at least for now), Aurene counts for 3 and is opposed to the other 3 dragons.

    First of all, the magic doesn't go solely to the other dragons. Nor does it go completely. Secondly, the Elder Dragons that take portions of dead Elder Dragons' magic do not take up the position of The All. In Season 3's Taimi Simulation during Flashpoint, we get a new vision of The All. Despite the fact that Kralkatorrik and Primordus took significant chunks of Mordremoth's and ZHaitan's magic at the time, in said vision of The All, Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's spheres were inert.

    This is the "issue of balance" that will destroy the world. The All's six spheres being imbalanced. And to fix that, we need full out proper replacements - all evidence suggests that an Elder Dragon can only be connected to one singular sphere in The All.

    Also, there is zero indication that Aurene has "2/3 of Mordremoth and those of Zhaitan". First off, she showed no signs of consuming the foreign magic Kralkatorrik absorbed. Second off, even if she did:

    • Mordremoth's magic split into four directions which happened to meet the cardinal directions (north, south, east, west)
    • The east magic eventually hit Kralkatorrik, so he would have gotten less than 1/4th since it spread out from there. It should be noted that Kralkatorrik only shows Mind magic. He never utilized plant magic (likewise, we've only seen him use Death, not Shadow; and Primordus only used Plant and what could pass as Shadow more than Death despite the "Death-Touched" name).
    • The north went to Tarir than the Maguuma Bloodstone. Even if we assume Aurene got half and the Maguuma Bloodstone got half, there's also the spread out that occurred, so it wouldn't be a perfect 1/8th each. And when Balthazar absorbed the Bloodstone's magic, a ton got spread out into the world, so he would have gotten even less of that 1/8th.
    • The west magic is fully unaccounted for.
    • The southern magic went to the Ring of Fire which Primordus ate. And Primordus likely still has that magic, as Taimi's Machine was pulling Primordus energy out of Primordus and Jormag magic out of Jormag, not Zhaitan/Mordremoth energy out of them.

    It was also confirmed that when Kralkatorrik died, Aurene didn't absorb every single bit of magic. Similarly for Balthazar magic (as Balthazar's magic flowing into Tyria is what made Volatile Magic that is the S4 currency and has now spread across Central Tyria even to Dry Top). This means whatever magic Balthazar had, Aurene and Kralkatorrik combined got less than 100%, and when Aurene took Kralkatorrik's magic she again got less than 100%.

    So we're looking at less than 1/2 of Mordremoth's magic in Aurene, probably closer to 7/16th, if she did indeed absorb Mordremoth, Balthazar, and ZHaitan's magic that Kralkatorrik consumed (again, we have zero indication such happened).

    And we're looking at less that for Zhaitan, since we cannot even confirm how many splits it took (we know of 3).

    Even ignoring all of that, we hit the initial issue. It isn't just a balance of magic quantities that is hindering the world. It's a balance of The All itself, and when Primordus and Kralkatorrik took Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's magic, they did not assume their roles in The All. So it's reasonable to say that Aurene only took Kralkatorrik's role in The All.

    And on top of all of that, we have the heavy implication by devs that although Aurene can handle conflicting magic before ascending as an Elder Dragon, she isn't fully immune to the conflicting magic causing harm to the consumer. She was able to handle the small amount of conflicting magic because of her bond with mortals, as foreshadowed by Glint in Episode 5's All or Nothing; as an Elder Dragon, she's housing a lot more magic, but she hasn't yet shared it with more mortals than the Commander and Caithe. So we can expect pains to begin to set in - or more branded minions to be made to alleviate this.

    (Side tangent: since Taimi's Machine was taking Primordus and Jormag magic out, and not touching Mordremoth/Zhaitan magic, it'd be interesting if when we revisit Primordus, he's no longer a fire-primary dragon, but a Plant-Shadow Elder Dragon with a touch of Fire instead. Unlike Jormag, Primordus had taken in a significant amount of Plant and Shadow/Death magic).

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    I am curious for your thoughts on Kralkatorrik's "Mother", Aurene's "Grandfather" and repeated reference to Kralk as "he". What are we to make of such things?

    You've brought up examples such as these, then seemingly dismissed them as irrelevant. I think what we really need from you, Konig, is an explanation or theory that helps us understand why you feel objective facts should be reinterpreted.

    Aurene's use of grandfather seems largely done more for impact than anything else. Lines such as "Grandfather, look at me!" wouldn't be as impactful in the English language if they used gender neutral terminology (in this case, "Grandparent, look at me!"). There's also the interpretation that - except for Kralkatorrik's "mother" line - all uses of gender association for Kralkatorrik came from Glint and Aurene, who were communicating with mortals (or around them, in that case).

    The extent of Kralkatorrik's "mother" line is hard to place, because we literally just have one word to go off of and nothing else.

    I didn't really dismiss them, tbh, I just didn't wand to drag out the response since the main purpose of the response was "the Elder Dragons have no actual gender, any association of such is social-based, and Jormag uses gender neutral terms rather than male or female."

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    The dragons only gender is the one they put on for themselves. I imagine much like many humans, they have certain persona's, possibly ones informed from the genders of mortal races. Mordremoth has no gender, which is to say non-binary but Mordromoth literally has no body for which there to be a gender, or at the least can have no more a gender then a jungle can have a gender. Aurene has chosen to identify as female, perhaps because she identifies with classical female traits such as nurturing and protectiveness, she does seem very defensively oriented. Jormag choosing to be non-Binary has a very obvious reason in my eyes, it's easier to persuade people when you can easily slip in and out of the void of their gender of choice to tempt them.

    Mordremoth had a body. It might not have been its original body, but it was its core body for the past 10,000 years, and for all we know it could have been gendered, or not.

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    I don't understand why Pale Tree should be used to contain the power of mordremoth, excluding Balthazar the power of fallen dragons is passed on to other dragons, and now that power belongs to Aurene Jormag and Primordius, as is the same for the power of Zhaitan that Aurene got after the defeat of Kralkatorrik.
    Aurene currently has at her disposal all the powers of kralkatorrik, 2/3 of Mordremoth and those of Zhaitan and Balthazar, it is probable that she does not know all that she is able to do but does not seem to me to have problems in managing all this power alone ( at least for now), Aurene counts for 3 and is opposed to the other 3 dragons.

    First of all, the magic doesn't go solely to the other dragons. Nor does it go completely. Secondly, the Elder Dragons that take portions of dead Elder Dragons' magic do not take up the position of The All. In Season 3's Taimi Simulation during Flashpoint, we get a new vision of The All. Despite the fact that Kralkatorrik and Primordus took significant chunks of Mordremoth's and ZHaitan's magic at the time, in said vision of The All, Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's spheres were inert.

    This is the "issue of balance" that will destroy the world. The All's six spheres being imbalanced. And to fix that, we need full out proper replacements - all evidence suggests that an Elder Dragon can only be connected to one singular sphere in The All.

    Also, there is zero indication that Aurene has "2/3 of Mordremoth and those of Zhaitan". First off, she showed no signs of consuming the foreign magic Kralkatorrik absorbed. Second off, even if she did:

    • Mordremoth's magic split into four directions which happened to meet the cardinal directions (north, south, east, west)
    • The east magic eventually hit Kralkatorrik, so he would have gotten less than 1/4th since it spread out from there. It should be noted that Kralkatorrik only shows Mind magic. He never utilized plant magic (likewise, we've only seen him use Death, not Shadow; and Primordus only used Plant and what could pass as Shadow more than Death despite the "Death-Touched" name).
    • The north went to Tarir than the Maguuma Bloodstone. Even if we assume Aurene got half and the Maguuma Bloodstone got half, there's also the spread out that occurred, so it wouldn't be a perfect 1/8th each. And when Balthazar absorbed the Bloodstone's magic, a ton got spread out into the world, so he would have gotten even less of that 1/8th.
    • The west magic is fully unaccounted for.
    • The southern magic went to the Ring of Fire which Primordus ate. And Primordus likely still has that magic, as Taimi's Machine was pulling Primordus energy out of Primordus and Jormag magic out of Jormag, not Zhaitan/Mordremoth energy out of them.

    It was also confirmed that when Kralkatorrik died, Aurene didn't absorb every single bit of magic. Similarly for Balthazar magic (as Balthazar's magic flowing into Tyria is what made Volatile Magic that is the S4 currency and has now spread across Central Tyria even to Dry Top). This means whatever magic Balthazar had, Aurene and Kralkatorrik combined got less than 100%, and when Aurene took Kralkatorrik's magic she again got less than 100%.

    So we're looking at less than 1/2 of Mordremoth's magic in Aurene, probably closer to 7/16th, if she did indeed absorb Mordremoth, Balthazar, and ZHaitan's magic that Kralkatorrik consumed (again, we have zero indication such happened).

    And we're looking at less that for Zhaitan, since we cannot even confirm how many splits it took (we know of 3).

    Even ignoring all of that, we hit the initial issue. It isn't just a balance of magic quantities that is hindering the world. It's a balance of The All itself, and when Primordus and Kralkatorrik took Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's magic, they did not assume their roles in The All. So it's reasonable to say that Aurene only took Kralkatorrik's role in The All.

    And on top of all of that, we have the heavy implication by devs that although Aurene can handle conflicting magic before ascending as an Elder Dragon, she isn't fully immune to the conflicting magic causing harm to the consumer. She was able to handle the small amount of conflicting magic because of her bond with mortals, as foreshadowed by Glint in Episode 5's All or Nothing; as an Elder Dragon, she's housing a lot more magic, but she hasn't yet shared it with more mortals than the Commander and Caithe. So we can expect pains to begin to set in - or more branded minions to be made to alleviate this.

    (Side tangent: since Taimi's Machine was taking Primordus and Jormag magic out, and not touching Mordremoth/Zhaitan magic, it'd be interesting if when we revisit Primordus, he's no longer a fire-primary dragon, but a Plant-Shadow Elder Dragon with a touch of Fire instead. Unlike Jormag, Primordus had taken in a significant amount of Plant and Shadow/Death magic).

    Fair enough Konig. I have a theory about their reproduction. But it's probably best if I just sit on it for now.